Latest / Identity at the Center / #248 - Decentralized Identity with the Identity Woman Kaliya Young

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#248 - Decentralized Identity with the Identity Woman Kaliya Young · Identity at the Center

0:05
This is identity at the center. If it has anything to do with
0:10
IAM, this is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and
0:17
Jeff Stedman. Welcome to the Identity at the
0:23
Center podcast. I'm Jeff and that's Jim.
0:24
Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff.
0:26
How are you? Not so bad yourself doing great.
0:29
So I put a post on the ID Pro Slack channel the other day and
0:33
asked, you know, who are people that folks would like to hear
0:36
come on to the show as guests. And I got a response from Trigva
0:43
Holland Hobland and he mentioned somebody from Microsoft and I
0:48
asked him if he saw the episode with or heard the episode with
0:52
Pam Dingle and he hadn't. I went out and listened to it
0:55
and said oh that's fantastic. Hit a follow up question.
0:58
So I'm gonna bounce this off you.
1:01
Do we have transcripts of the episodes that people can go and
1:05
and search? We do not.
1:08
Not yet. I'm trying to figure out how to
1:10
get it done, but one, it's expensive to do 2 It takes a
1:14
long time to figure out. There's automated services, but
1:19
you're kind of left to. You still have to like read them
1:21
to see if they make sense and. I don't know.
1:24
I think ultimately, yeah, I'll try to figure something out.
1:27
But today we do not trying to think actually the Spotify app
1:32
does. So if you're a Spotify listener,
1:35
you can go into the Spotify app and I believe there are
1:38
transcripts there. It does it automatically.
1:40
I don't have any control over it.
1:42
So I, you know, I will say that is all on Spotify, whatever.
1:46
Our words get translated into what shows up in there, but.
1:51
Not today, but it's something I'm trying to figure out how to
1:53
do. That doesn't just take an
1:54
inordinate amount of time. Yeah, I mean, you hit the the
2:00
nail on the head there with it's expensive.
2:02
One thing we didn't, I didn't realize, and I'm assuming you
2:05
didn't realize when we started doing this thing four years ago
2:08
is how expensive it is from a podcast.
2:11
So one of the things you you went out and got us was software
2:15
so that we could take all the episodes and put them up to
2:18
YouTube. You know, it's not like a full
2:20
video, but there is some visual, you know, sound bar thing kind
2:26
of thing happening. Waveform I guess is what it's
2:28
called and we've already got 150 subscribers to the YouTube
2:33
channel. But I would just ask everybody
2:35
to to go out there and you know hit subscribe that's going to
2:39
help grow the channel. It's it's funny when I go into
2:42
Apple podcast and I type identity, it's like our podcast
2:46
comes up right away but you almost have to type out identity
2:50
at the Center for it to show up in YouTube so.
2:54
Well, identity's such a fake term, right?
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It's we know what it means in our context, but it means
3:00
different things in different contexts.
3:01
So yeah, I also just wanted to mention the the website which
3:07
you created. I I know you put a lot of time
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into creating it. I'm assuming that it kind of
3:12
takes care of itself for the most part now, but I did want to
3:15
point out one of the features that I wind up using all the
3:18
time myself is the search feature.
3:20
So you can go into idacpodcast.com, click on Listen
3:26
and search. You know, either by name or by
3:30
topic, you know, type in RBAC or something like that and see all
3:33
the episodes where we had a significant amount of content or
3:37
discussion on a specific. Topic Yeah, it took a while for
3:40
that to get in place, but yeah, all of our episodes are.
3:43
There automatically. And yeah, the search box is very
3:46
simple, it just searches for keywords right?
3:48
So you type in RBAC like you said, and if it's in the show
3:50
title or in the show notes, it should pull back entries related
3:55
to that, which I'm sure we have a few at this point, Yeah.
3:58
So the last thing I'll I'll point out.
4:00
So for folks who are part of ID Pro who have access to select
4:04
channels, awesome. It's probably the the biggest
4:06
benefit of being a member of ID Pro, but the thread is still
4:09
open. So folks want to, you know,
4:11
nominate somebody you know that, especially if you know the
4:15
person and will handle doing an introduction, that would be
4:18
great. But I wanted to shout out to
4:22
Sarsourcetti and Ian Glazer because they gave several
4:27
recommendations, so we got a a good little bit of a list to to
4:31
chew through in 2024. Yeah.
4:33
And you're responsible for all the show bookings and guests and
4:36
things like that. So that's right.
4:38
That's, that's that's the weight that I carry.
4:41
Yeah, you know, Speaking of the Spotify app, something I started
4:44
doing recently is they have a feature where you can add in
4:48
like Q&A and like poles. So I've started to do that on
4:54
some more recent episodes. And if you remember, a couple
4:56
episodes ago, this episode, 245, we were talking about which
5:00
universe we would like to live in, whether it was Game of
5:03
Thrones, The Matrix, or The Walking Dead.
5:06
And based on a very limited sample size so far.
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The winner right now is Game of Thrones, which surprises me that
5:13
people would want to live in the Game of Thrones universe.
5:15
Seems very cutthroat and brutal. Matrix is in second by like 1
5:20
vote. And then nobody has voted for
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The Walking Dead, which I believe was your choice when we
5:25
started talking about that. Yeah.
5:26
And and I mean none of those options are great.
5:30
The reason I mean just just to go back why I picked The Walking
5:33
Dead is that I take prescription medicine and without it I don't
5:38
think I would survive. So I had the idea that you know
5:41
if I was in the Game of Thrones, like I wouldn't last very many
5:46
weeks, but if I was in Walking Dead I could probably go and
5:49
raid a pharmacy and get the medication that I need.
5:53
So it was like a logic based answer.
5:55
I know that kind of takes the fun out of it.
5:57
To some degree. But it just, you know it's it's
5:59
a it's a question that shows our personalities, right we're I set
6:03
the Matrix because I like air conditioning and being
6:05
comfortable and Wi-Fi. I can do that in The Matrix.
6:08
Do I know I'm a battery? I don't know.
6:09
Maybe I'll find out at some point, decide to pursue that
6:11
rabbit hole. Either way, I don't have to
6:13
worry about having my head chopped off or being bitten by a
6:16
zombie or anything like that. Isn't that blue pill?
6:20
Yeah, the red pill is the one that I'll take you out.
6:22
The blue pill keeps you in 'cause you've never seen the
6:25
Matrix, right? I didn't even know that was.
6:27
I thought it was like if you were taking the blue pill, that
6:31
meant you didn't know what was going on then.
6:34
Basically takes the red pill that.
6:36
OK, it's like you. It's like you.
6:37
This conversation never took place and you just kind of wake
6:39
up and it's like you're back to being a battery.
6:42
Gotcha. Let's see.
6:43
So Thanksgiving this week. I've got family in house pretty
6:46
much all week. They're doing their best not to
6:47
make noise, which it's fine. Whatever.
6:50
Like, you know, we should be OK. My dogs will start barking,
6:52
maybe at some point. My brother-in-law is apparently
6:57
a trigger for my youngest dog and just howls his face off
7:01
whenever he sees them. Which is really, It was cute at
7:04
1st and now it's gotten really annoying because it's like every
7:06
time like, Nope, Same person. He just went upstairs.
7:08
He came back downstairs. Same person.
7:12
Yeah, but I so you're having a an exciting week, but less
7:15
exciting than all the people who work for Open AI.
7:19
Yeah, no kidding. Open AI has got some got some
7:21
things going on over there. I'm not qualified to speak on
7:23
it, but hopefully they get things sorted out because I'm a
7:25
big fan of AI and hopefully things work out.
7:29
Let's see. So this show's gonna go live on?
7:32
It was at the 27th, I think it is a which is a Monday like
7:35
usual. And then I'm gonna be in New
7:37
York City for the Identiverse regional event that's taking
7:39
place on Friday December 1st. So I'll have a link in our show
7:44
notes for people to check out if they can make it.
7:46
Probably best for like local people not to be there but it's
7:49
free and the only and the way you can show your support is
7:51
using our registration link to to show up.
7:53
So if you're there I'll have stickers.
7:56
I'll be given fist bumps with gratitude instead of checking
7:58
out what that's all about. So.
8:01
I think it's all the promotion I've got before we get into our
8:03
main topic, which is decentralized identity.
8:05
Do you have anything else, Jim, or should we get going?
8:08
Well, let's get going. All right, so to help us with
8:11
decentralized identity and figure out what the heck we're
8:13
talking about, we've got the identity woman herself.
8:16
She's Kalia Young. Welcome to the show, Kalia.
8:19
Great to be here. Thank you so much for taking the
8:21
time. And we've got tradition on the
8:23
show. Whenever we have someone on for
8:24
the first time, as we like to find out sort of their identity,
8:27
origin story, you know, where did they come from?
8:29
Who made them what they are? Did identity choose them?
8:32
Did it choose? You know, did you choose it?
8:34
Those sorts of things. Tell us a little about how you
8:37
got into the world of identity. Sure.
8:40
I had a pretty unconventional path in the year 2000.
8:44
I went to a conference called Planet Work, which you can think
8:47
of like planet and network mushed together.
8:50
And that that conference they had like the chief scientist of
8:57
Sun talking about what you know, what we would now call Uber,
9:02
like you're going to have cell phones, they're going to pick
9:04
you up. And we're like, no way.
9:06
Like it was so cool and and after that conference that
9:10
community of people who were there met for about 18 months
9:14
and wrote a paper published ultimately in. 2003 called the
9:21
Augmented social network White paper Building Identity and
9:25
Trust into the next generation Internet and I started hanging
9:30
out with the folks who wrote that paper in the fall of 2002
9:34
and totally understood what they were talking about and they were
9:37
saying like look, we need user centric digital identity to
9:41
support. People connecting to each other,
9:45
not being intermediated by governments or businesses, which
9:49
will happen if we don't build open standards.
9:52
And I was like, you're so right, I'm, I'm there.
9:55
And I started working with the guys who were trying to make
10:01
that vision a reality. I became one of the first.
10:06
Employees of what at the time was called Identity Commons,
10:09
which was their project to do this, and I started networking
10:12
with other people who might share this vision and ultimately
10:17
ran into a bunch of user centric digital identity oriented people
10:23
at the big Identity conference at the time, Digital Identity
10:28
World, in the fall of 2004. The Identity Gangly mailing list
10:32
started out of that. And then.
10:35
I've I've been working in the field ever since.
10:38
So you've got a pretty long story to history.
10:40
You've also published a couple books.
10:41
What are those about and how did you get into the book writing
10:44
game? Sure.
10:45
So the first book that I wrote was actually coming out of was
10:51
that. Yeah, that was.
10:53
I I wrote it first, but I think it was published after how's
10:56
that was the domains of identity, which I wrote as my
11:00
master's thesis in the Master of Science and Identity Management
11:04
and Security program at UT Austin.
11:07
And it really was born out of a frustration in the field of
11:14
identity management to put everything into one big BLOB.
11:18
And you we cannot solve this problem as one big BLOB.
11:24
Should the border agent take your biometrics when you're
11:27
crossing the border is an identity management problem.
11:30
So is enrolling your kids at soccer and proving their age.
11:35
But they're very different identity management problems,
11:37
and we might want a a a landscape of choices to to
11:42
categorize problems. So it has 16 different domains.
11:48
All of them existed 100 years ago, so it's not particular to
11:52
digital identity, but it's very useful for thinking about
11:56
digital identity problems and challenges.
11:58
That was formally published in in 2020, and I also published
12:03
the very first book about self Sovereign Identity, called A
12:08
Comprehensive Guide to Self, Sovereign Identity.
12:11
It's up on Amazon. And unfortunately it's a bit out
12:15
of date that the sort of second-half of the book, it's
12:18
like the current state of the industry just ignore that part,
12:21
read the the the beginning part and and it's a great kind of
12:26
orientation to how the work of decentralized identity and and
12:31
self sovereign identity got started and and ways to think
12:34
about it clearly. I can't imagine trying to write
12:37
a technology that is so I don't know.
12:40
Futuristic. I don't know, for lack of a
12:42
better word, like Self Sovereign.
12:43
When we're. I think we're still trying to
12:45
figure that out. I'll have links in our show
12:47
notes at both books so people can check it out.
12:48
I think. Fun fact, if you are a Kindle
12:50
Unlimited submitter subscriber, the comprehensive guide to Self
12:53
Sovereign Identity is actually free with your Kindle Unlimited
12:56
membership. So.
12:58
I don't. I hopefully that helps you.
12:59
Yeah, I'm. I'm.
13:00
I don't know, but people can check that out, at least for
13:03
free. If they're a Kindle person.
13:04
It helps Amazon. It helps Jeff Bezos.
13:07
It helps. I mean they're they're a
13:09
struggling company, you know, hopefully they'll be able to
13:11
make it to the next year, but I'll put links in our show notes
13:15
for that. You also Co founded the Internet
13:18
Identity Workshop or Iowi have not been there.
13:21
I don't think Jim's been there either.
13:23
It's something that we've kind of heard about.
13:25
I think I've talked about this on a show before.
13:27
I feel like I would be a little bit intimidated going to there
13:29
because I feel like these giant identity brains are there and
13:33
they're gonna be talking way over my head.
13:35
And I think the only way that I would learn something would be
13:38
like through some sort of osmosis or something like that.
13:42
Who is this conference for? Can you kind of take us behind
13:44
the the curtain of it? Sure.
13:46
I mean we got started in 2005 really.
13:51
It was an opportunity for the mailing list that formed out of
13:55
that identity gang era to talk to itself.
14:00
And the the first Iowa was actually one day of
14:04
presentations from all the different sort of.
14:08
Leading user centric potential protocols at the time and then I
14:12
said like hey let's stay for another day and talk to
14:15
ourselves. Doing it using a method called
14:18
open space technology where you facilitate and support the the
14:24
participants Co creating the agenda live the day of the event
14:28
and we use that format now for all three days of the event.
14:33
We'd literally sit in a big circle the 1st morning and each
14:37
morning afterwards and people stand up and on a piece of
14:44
cardstock articulate the name of the session that they would like
14:49
to convene. And it can.
14:52
Sessions take many formats. SO1 format is asking a question
14:57
and inviting people to come and help you answer it.
15:01
Another one is, you know, people presenting for 10 or 15 minutes
15:05
about some aspect of ongoing technical work or problem
15:10
solving that they're doing and and sharing it with the
15:13
community. Another is just talking about
15:15
critical issues that could use more discernment.
15:20
And there's a broad range of what those topics entail.
15:25
So they go all the way from, like, deeply philosophical.
15:29
Sort of like what is identity and the meaning of the universe
15:32
to like super down in the weeds, technical nitty gritty.
15:39
And that broad range is part of the magic of our space is that
15:43
it's not, it's not like all of those things are welcome and I
15:46
think it helps us maintain our grounding into the complexity
15:52
that identity has while at the same time.
15:56
Creating an opportunity for really practical problem solvers
16:00
to move their work forward. I've never been to an
16:03
unconference before, but it sounds Is that what an
16:07
unconference is? So I I actually also have a hat
16:11
as an unconference designer and facilitator and work with many
16:15
different communities. And I think of unconference
16:17
formats as anything that is more organized than.
16:22
A cocktail party and less organized than talking heads on
16:26
a panel. So there's a whole range of
16:29
potential formats and one of them is the format that we use
16:32
primarily at Iowa, which is open space technology.
16:36
We have a little interlude on Wednesday where we had demo hour
16:40
where we have 20 different people spread out throughout the
16:45
venue space where our lunch tables are.
16:48
And they demo for 5 minutes and then they kind of circulate and
16:52
you can see like 10 demos in an hour after lunch on Wednesday.
16:57
And are those things that I guess people have built, are
16:59
they like vendors, like what does that look like?
17:02
Yeah, it's it's it's things people have built, protocols
17:09
people are have working prototypes of.
17:14
You know, now we're seeing more and more like actual products in
17:17
market. So last IW, we had the folks who
17:20
built the mobile driver's license application for the
17:25
State of California sharing what they had built.
17:28
Yeah. So it's really an opportunity
17:30
for the technologist to have another medium in which to share
17:35
their successes and work. Sounds like a lot of fun.
17:38
I think Jim and I have to try to figure out how to get there at
17:40
some point. I don't know how you find the
17:42
time to do all this. Because you're writing books,
17:45
You know you're helping with this conference, you're doing
17:47
identity stuff in the real world.
17:49
And then you also put out a newsletter, A Dentosphere.
17:51
Great name, by the way. How did that come about and
17:54
what's that about? Sure.
17:56
So I I collaborate with my colleague Infominer on that, and
18:02
we really survey what's going on in the decentralized Self,
18:07
Sovere and identity space every week.
18:10
We actually have some public our our our feed RSS feed aggregator
18:17
is public. Like if you want to filter
18:18
through what I filter through every week, you're welcome to do
18:21
it. It's sitting there on the public
18:24
Internet, but it really felt like a good thing to do with the
18:28
time and we got a really great rhythm.
18:32
Every Friday I spend about 3 hours going through all of the.
18:37
News and filtering it out and deciding what is worthwhile for
18:41
many other people to read and by Monday or Tuesday info miners
18:46
got it all formatted and ready to go in in sub stack and I I
18:54
think of it as you know if you're ACEO.
18:59
Or anybody working heads down on shipping a product, It's really
19:03
hard to pull your head up and like pay attention to what's
19:06
happening in the rest of the industry.
19:08
And I I feel like the newsletter is if you're gonna lift your
19:12
head up, you could pay attention to the newsletter and get a
19:16
sense of it, and then go back to doing your work right?
19:20
That it's keeping a pulse of the latest relevant information?
19:28
Both in terms of new companies and products, but also standards
19:33
work and government announcements and and sort of
19:38
movement in the space. I think I appreciate that
19:41
because I think there's just so much content out there that
19:44
sometimes kind of figure out, OK, well, what's clickbait?
19:46
What's not right is there? Like, what should I be concerned
19:49
about and kind of working through things?
19:51
I think it's, I mean that's one of the beautiful things about
19:55
our industry. It's so open.
19:57
This is both a feature and a bug.
20:00
The bug being, it's so open you can't figure out what to pay
20:03
attention to. And in fact, that's one of the
20:05
core sort of value propositions that my colleague Lucy and I
20:11
have in our work is helping people figure out where they
20:16
should pay attention to based on all the all the buzz that's
20:20
happening 'cause it's certainly getting a lot of attention these
20:22
days. So when I ask you about the
20:24
Identity Woman sort of moniker, how did that come about?
20:27
Because I thought I read something that kind of
20:30
interesting way back when. And I want to make sure that the
20:33
rumors are, are there, like, you know, you're the only woman in
20:36
the room or something like that. And I'm like, oh, I've just
20:38
become this. Is that true?
20:39
Yeah, I mean, back in the day, you know, I shared a little bit
20:44
about working with Identity Commons and those guys were
20:49
really fun to be around and work with.
20:52
And I. And Doc Searles was kind of
20:56
going around to different community members on the mailing
20:59
list and really strongly encouraging us all to start
21:02
blogging because he understood this emerging medium was
21:06
important for supporting us, sharing our work beyond just
21:10
ourselves in a mailing list. And it also gave people a way to
21:13
express themselves in their own space and then post the link
21:17
into the mailing list. So they were, sort of.
21:20
Putting less pressure on being seen and heard in the mailing
21:23
list, if that makes sense. And you to start blogging you
21:29
need a cute pithy name for your blog.
21:32
And I was like, I guess, I I guess I'm the identity woman
21:37
looking around. I think I sort of had seen like
21:41
Pam Dingell and Mary Reddy maybe across the room at Digital
21:46
Identity World, but there was certainly nobody I was working
21:49
with in in the small community on an ongoing basis.
21:54
And so, yeah, that that was the name.
21:56
And then if you look really carefully in Kim Cameron's loss
22:00
of identity, he thanks everybody in the opening paragraph.
22:04
Or you know. Sort of, yeah.
22:07
Like the preface or something like.
22:08
That, yeah. And.
22:10
And he in that he says identity woman Kalia.
22:13
And I read that and I was like, Kim, what are you doing?
22:16
Like, that's how I named, 'cause everybody else has their first
22:18
name, last name, right? And he's like, no, no, no,
22:21
you're the identity woman. And I was like, well, I guess if
22:24
Kim Cameron's going to say that and refer to me that way, I'll
22:29
just go with it. And it's kind of stuck ever
22:31
since. I mean, it's hard to top being
22:34
bequeathed that by Kim Cameron. Definitely one of the giants in
22:37
the industry. So I I I would run with it,
22:41
that's for sure. You also have this identity
22:44
woman in business. What is that about?
22:47
Two years ago, well, actually during the pandemic, my
22:51
colleague Lucy and I started working together on the COVID
22:54
Credentials initiative and we LED that work for two years and.
23:02
So eventually we're nested inside Linux Foundation Public
23:05
Health and had a had a fantastic working relationship.
23:10
And as the pandemic was sort of winding down and I was getting
23:16
knocks on the door to support enterprises figuring out the
23:19
decentralized identity space, I said, hey Lucy, do you want to
23:23
join me and help help get these? You know, reports and other
23:30
research materials together to serve, you know, the clients
23:34
that were showing up and she said yes.
23:37
So it's our consulting work together really supporting
23:43
clarity and discernment in the industry and one of our favorite
23:49
things, favorite types of client work is working with different
23:56
companies. And organizations who would like
24:00
to support more discernment about key issues, whether it's
24:04
wallets, different protocols that are emerging and those
24:08
reports are publicly available but sponsored by different
24:12
companies. And and I think they're our goal
24:17
with our work is to really serve the development of the
24:19
technology and serve the community and the, you know,
24:24
development of good. High performance, open
24:27
standards. So Kalia, we've got listeners
24:30
that kind of span the the whole spectrum in terms of their
24:35
experience in the space. We call them the I am
24:38
practitioners of the world are identity practitioners of the
24:41
world. So we like to kind of start off
24:44
with baseline understanding not to kind of blow anybody away.
24:49
And I was going to ask you, could we just start with, you
24:52
know, defining? Decentralized identity or as a
24:56
self sovereign identity, are they the same thing or
24:59
different? And you know, how would how do
25:03
you explain what you do to people who have not even that
25:08
baseline of being in the identity industry?
25:11
Sure. So I often start by talking
25:16
about people's lived experiences today that they have in the
25:20
digital world, and one of them is.
25:24
Showing up on a website and being invited to like log in
25:28
with Google or log in with LinkedIn.
25:31
I I explained to them that that underlying that is a protocol
25:36
that we invented in the first, you know 10 years of the life of
25:40
IAW called Open ID. And that that shape of that
25:45
protocol involves Google or Facebook or whoever that
25:50
identity provider is seeing everywhere you go.
25:54
And they kind of intuitively get that because they're used to
25:57
that user experience. And then I say we're working on
26:00
a next generation of protocols that changes that, that supports
26:05
individuals sharing authoritative attributed
26:10
attributes about themselves with other parties but without that
26:15
identity provider in the middle because we've got a new three
26:18
party model of. Issuers who issue credentials to
26:23
a holder that holds them in a digital wallet and that holder
26:27
or individual can choose where and when to share it with what
26:32
we call a verifier in this model.
26:34
And that the really different thing about this from the
26:39
previous paradigm is that the issuer and the verifier never
26:44
actually connect or speak to each other.
26:46
So it it it ends that. Sort of disintermediation that
26:52
happens with the identity and identity provider role and also
26:56
you know in terms of like addressing key challenges that
26:59
have come up with the the previous model, it's it's
27:03
surveillance capitalism enabling right like that identity
27:08
provider is like seeing everywhere you go and and
27:11
another thing is we do not want in western liberal democracies
27:15
that identity provider to be our government.
27:18
But at the same time, there's more and more need to prove real
27:22
attributes about yourself from authoritative sources like
27:26
governments. Whether it's like to open up a
27:28
bank account, to buy a plane ticket to, you know, prove prove
27:36
that you're the right age to watch adult content or buy an
27:40
alcoholic drink like these are all reasons that.
27:45
Attributes from authoritative sources matter, and that those
27:48
authoritative sources may not be good entities to see all of your
27:53
transactions. And so this, this new sort of
27:57
paradigm is it's made possible by this decentralized identity
28:02
technology or three party model. I love the three party model
28:05
because it makes me think of an example of OK, so I get a
28:11
credential issued by the government.
28:15
So they're the issuer and then the relying party might be the
28:19
liquor store. I don't want the government to
28:22
know. Oh, Jim goes to the liquor store
28:24
a lot because too much. Well, you know, if it gets out
28:30
of control, I don't want the government to know that.
28:33
No. Yeah.
28:33
Although is that? Am I on the right track with
28:36
that? You are on the right track.
28:38
Definitely right. It's none of their business
28:41
where you use the credential, just like.
28:44
You know, it also mimics our paper based system today
28:48
architecturally, right? Like the paper in your wallet
28:51
that you use to do that proofing today does not ping the
28:55
government every time you pull it out of your wallet and show
28:58
it to somebody, right. So I actually have a paper
29:03
called Seeing Self Sovereign Identity in historical context.
29:07
That basically makes this case and says look, we have this
29:10
history of paper based documentation in the West that's
29:13
about 500 years old and we have computer technology that's about
29:18
7 years old. And until SSI the two
29:21
architectures didn't actually look, didn't echo each other
29:25
that the, you know, the phone home model of the computer was
29:29
not in alignment with the paper based architectures that we've
29:33
had working in our. In our societies, for hundreds
29:38
of years, I'm going. To ask you a question I think
29:40
makes sense. So where does the term self
29:44
sovereign come from? Because it's not like you're
29:46
issuing your own identity. Right.
29:48
And I think this is, you know, we can, you can find lots of
29:51
philosophical debates about the meaning of this term and and
29:56
what its implications are. And and some people will say
29:59
like, yeah, that what you just said, like you aren't issuing
30:02
your own credentials in fact. You know there is value to self
30:06
assertion of information and this technology.
30:09
You can issue your own credentials to yourself about
30:12
things you care about and other people might find relevant.
30:15
Like your favorite color is blue and your shoe size is 10.
30:18
Or you know, stuff that is fine, but things that really matter.
30:24
It matters what other people say, but there isn't 11.
30:30
Authoritative source of all truths in the world and that's
30:32
part of what the SSI and you know, the decentralized part is
30:36
about is really how do you have, how is the individual the locus
30:41
of control for this system and able to manage who can see what
30:47
and when and how do you also give the individual.
30:55
Almost their own technological base from which to do those
30:59
interactions and that led in this case is the wallet, whether
31:02
it's on your phone or in the cloud, is that until now you
31:05
didn't have your own kind of domain of self-control about how
31:10
you were managing that if you were always at the affect of an
31:13
identity provider and they were really in charge.
31:16
Another thing about our podcast is that we reach an audience
31:20
outside of. North America, so 40% of our
31:24
listeners are outside the United States, not even just like, oh
31:28
that you know, most of us are in Canada, most people all over the
31:31
world. So I think we can end up taking
31:34
a very, you know, North America, focus on the podcast and think
31:39
about some of these things. But from my understanding there
31:43
are some other countries, Estonia for example, that has
31:46
gotten a lot further along than the USA for example.
31:50
And so I'm wondering why couldn't USA kind of follow that
31:54
Estonia model? Sure.
31:57
I mean, this is a fantastic question and one I wish people
32:01
would ask more often. I think countries like Estonia
32:05
and Singapore have done remarkable work, but they also
32:08
have certain features that mean what they did in those contexts
32:12
is not scalable outside of them. So they're both incredibly
32:15
small. Geographies and numbers of
32:19
people. Estonia is about 1.5 million,
32:21
Singapore's 4 million and they're very high trust
32:25
societies with strong Government Accountability.
32:29
And there is sort of 1 jurisdiction.
32:33
There isn't multiple levels of government with, you know, a
32:38
federal government, state government.
32:42
In the United States, you've got county level government and city
32:45
level government. So that's four levels of
32:47
government. In the United States, you have
32:51
over 5000 jurisdictions that issue birth certificates at the
32:56
county level, right. So that's already like super
32:58
decentralized, right. So we need to think about how
33:04
the complexities of federal systems.
33:08
Cannot be held or managed in the same way that you manage, almost
33:13
like city States and their capacity to issue their
33:17
citizens. A simple identity that can be
33:20
used many places within that jurisdiction.
33:23
And Estonia, in fact, actually has a system where, with citizen
33:27
transparency and accountability, all of the major databases are
33:31
actually linked to each other. And people are have the data
33:35
moved from one database to another when they need it to
33:39
interact with a new part of government.
33:42
And that would just be completely unfeasible at the
33:45
scale of a country like the United States.
33:47
Could you manage every every government database at every
33:51
level of government being somehow linked to each other?
33:54
It would be a security, privacy, accountability nightmare.
33:59
And that the way to scale. Information sharing amongst
34:05
entities that people are interacting with is really with
34:09
themselves as the pivot point where they can take a record or
34:12
information from one service or system they're interacting with,
34:16
hold it, have a cryptographically signed by that
34:19
entity so it's it's trusted from the originating service provider
34:22
and then they can share it with who, who they choose to and
34:25
when. When you think about government,
34:27
one of the challenges that they face is that it has to be
34:29
accessible by everybody. And I just think about the
34:34
person who uses the exam, my poor dad, trying to figure out
34:39
how to use this stuff. So I think there probably has to
34:42
be some kind of, you know, I would imagine that's one of the
34:45
challenges is people who either don't have access to the
34:49
technology or have no interest in, you know, changing at this
34:53
point in their life. What are some of these
34:55
challenges? Yeah, I think those are
34:58
challenges, but I think. They're also addressable, right?
35:01
There's a lot of conversations about guardianship models so
35:05
that you, Jim, can be a steward of your father's identity in
35:11
interacting with certain systems.
35:13
Or you know, parents are going to be the stewards of their
35:17
children's identities, right until they're of the age they
35:20
can manage it themselves. And I think you're also going to
35:24
see. Like service providers show up,
35:28
like I don't manage my money, I hire a bank to do it right.
35:33
Like there is they are experts at that particular thing and we
35:39
just haven't progressed far enough to see that happen yet.
35:45
But I think we will, because it's really critical to have
35:49
service providers that have a fiduciary duty to the people.
35:54
Whose identity information they're stewarding and we don't
35:57
right now. Everything you share with the
35:59
service provider is sort of owned by them and they can do
36:03
what they want with it. Now that's that's a really great
36:06
idea around the the stewardship model or the guardianship model,
36:11
I'm sorry. It seems like that potentially
36:14
could solve the issue. Of course, that probably makes
36:16
the data model much more complex.
36:19
I can just imagine, you know, bring this.
36:23
Back to the good old USA and kind of where we have states,
36:29
where my mind goes is around the mobile driver's license
36:35
initiative. Is is that a good example of
36:38
self sovereign identity? Is that am I thinking about this
36:41
right or is that something totally different?
36:44
Yeah, so that's one of the standards.
36:48
The ISO MDL 18O13-5 standard is is an example of the the kind of
36:58
architecture. One of the challenges with that
37:01
that standard is that it has an optional phone home option which
37:06
many people aren't necessarily tracking, but some states are
37:10
using that so. When you get pulled over by the
37:13
side of the road, you share a token with, you know whoever's
37:18
stopping you and they take that token and they go get your
37:22
information from the state database.
37:24
And I've from the beginning said, look, we shouldn't be even
37:29
creating a protocol that has a phone home architecture because
37:33
we have confidence and faith in our governments here in the
37:40
Liberal West, but. This is going to be used by
37:42
governments all over the world. The good thing is, is that
37:46
there's more sort of scrutiny and awareness of the protocols
37:50
and hopefully that will help better choices being made.
37:55
The ACLU actually published a really great report sharing some
38:00
of their concerns about these optional features in that
38:04
architecture. But the Verifiable Credentials
38:07
Standard, which was, you know came out of the community around
38:11
IIW and the Credentials Community Group, with the W3C
38:15
and the Decentralized and the Foundation.
38:17
There's a lot of different forums where the core standards
38:20
are being worked on. Doesn't have that architecture
38:23
at all, partly because we've always been very concerned about
38:28
how people are empowered and. Have have the control that makes
38:36
sense. I think that's the keyword
38:38
control, right. How do you manage your own data?
38:40
And I think some of this is, where are you going to manage
38:43
this data? How you gonna store it?
38:45
You wrote a blog article recently on Medium and we'll
38:48
have a link in our show note about this as well called
38:50
Exploring Approaches to Digital Wallets.
38:53
I'll put a link in our show notes, but for people who
38:56
haven't read it, I guess what's the take away from that?
38:59
Because I feel like we're in a risk area of fragmentation when
39:04
it comes to wallets. Are we gonna have one wallet?
39:07
Through them all? Or is it gonna be like a key
39:09
chain where I look like the key master for the matrix and I have
39:12
like 80 million keys on it and that's each of those Might be a
39:15
wallet. I'm concerned.
39:17
Right. Yeah.
39:19
I mean it's a place of much market activity and we wrote
39:24
this report we we spoke to six different experts around the
39:28
world. And we we, we came up with some
39:34
key characteristics about wallets.
39:37
One is that they're sort of, they need to be almost like
39:42
invisible. Like you shouldn't be thinking a
39:44
lot about the wallet. It should be a tool to help you
39:47
accomplish your goals. That we need to be mindful of
39:53
inclusivity and how these work for a broad range of people.
39:59
Portability. How can you move from one wallet
40:02
to another and not get locked in interoperability?
40:08
Like, can your wallet work in a variety of contexts?
40:12
Since we still have, and I think we'll have many, many, Not many.
40:17
Not like, not like. 30 or 40, but we're going to have a small
40:21
number under 10, hopefully different formats that are
40:25
coming out of different industries for different reasons
40:28
and we need to get it all to work together so consumers
40:32
aren't going and end user experience.
40:35
And I think collaboration is really the key to solving these
40:41
wallet challenges right now because it's a core piece of
40:45
infrastructure that everybody needs and needs to work really
40:52
well and isn't isn't where you're going to make your money.
40:57
And whatever your business is, it's going to involve hopefully
41:01
interactions that leverage the information in a wallet or if
41:05
you're in the service provider or software business, like
41:08
helping businesses connect and use the tools.
41:11
Much like in the early web, people made money because they
41:14
were helping people make websites with HTML, not because
41:17
they owned HTML, right Like and I think in terms of critical
41:22
issues and we didn't really get into this into the report, but
41:25
it's definitely circulating in the communities right now is
41:29
really key control inflection points.
41:34
So there is a term that's really about one of these inflections
41:40
points called wallet invocation. So if we have a plurality of
41:45
wallets in the world, if I as a consumer have the right to
41:49
choose which software provider I trust to build and and you know
41:57
build and and and be the software that my wallet runs,
42:01
how do when I interact with other tools and services, do I
42:06
get them to pick the right wallet on my phone if I have
42:10
more than one of it to deposit a credential in?
42:12
And when I want to share a credential, how do I connect the
42:15
right wallet with the credential I want in it to that service?
42:19
And that protocol is one that we have to push really hard right
42:25
now to make sure it comes into being because otherwise we could
42:28
end up in a world where the platform providers are like, oh
42:31
don't worry, let us take care of it.
42:33
And. And then the only option if
42:36
you're on an iPhone will be your Apple Wallet and potentially and
42:40
Google, although Google's been much more clear that they're
42:42
more aligned with having a plurality of wallets.
42:48
But you could still end up in a world where the platform
42:51
providers are the deciders of the wallets.
42:53
And and I don't think we want that, just like we didn't want
42:56
the operating systems to be the decider of which browser we
43:01
would use. Aydo is going through a little
43:03
bit with this right now with passkeys and sort of you know,
43:07
being associated with a platform and I think now we get into this
43:11
areas. OK, well how do I make my
43:12
passkeys portable to move from one platform to another, which I
43:15
think it's the logical next step if we're gonna get there.
43:18
I just, I'm, I'm just concerned about here we are again with you
43:22
know 80 million wallets and some.
43:25
Garbage looking Oauth prompt. It's like, oh, which of your 80
43:28
million wallets would you like to select to connect to this
43:30
service? Like that's just not going to
43:32
work. That's not user friendly at all.
43:33
Well, that's what IIW is for. I mean we had extensive
43:38
conversations over the, you know, I went I, I I saw them
43:42
happen. I wasn't actively participating
43:45
in them, but key people from across the industry trying to
43:48
figure out how to solve this challenge in a way that works.
43:52
And I think we need to put significant, just like Fido put
43:55
significant user experience, attention, resources and efforts
44:01
into getting their UX right, the decentralized identity digital
44:05
wallet folks need to do something similar in the next
44:08
year. Well, there's certainly a lot of
44:10
smart people working on it, much smarter than I am, so I will
44:13
hope and support those efforts. I gotta ask, is there
44:17
competition between like decentralized identity
44:20
standards? Like how does this work behind
44:22
the scenes where maybe people have different ideas?
44:26
Or is there like, OK, we'll take the best of this standard and
44:30
then bring it over to this other standard and form like the Uber
44:32
standard? Is that standard supposed to be
44:35
global or is it meant to be, Well, this is the US standard
44:38
versus the Canadian standard versus the Indian standard.
44:41
How do you see that? This is a great question.
44:44
In fact the last report Lucy and I wrote was focused on standards
44:51
based digital credentials and the different formats that are
44:54
are currently in market. I think one of the challenges is
44:59
the real world in the sense that we have incredibly high
45:04
ambitions and ideals for what the protocols could do.
45:07
Selective disclosures, EKP like amazingness, right.
45:12
But then it's like, Oh well the algorithms to do those things
45:16
are are new. They haven't necessarily been
45:20
vetted and oh, we have hardware that has certain algorithms
45:25
connected to key management there and those aren't really
45:29
compatible with the fun new interesting selective
45:32
disclosure, right. So there's been a real kind of,
45:37
I don't want to call it a wall, but sort of like, oh, reality
45:40
intervention saying like if you want to support credentials
45:45
being anchored to a particular phone, which governments.
45:49
We can have debates about this. I'm sure you can have people on
45:52
and talking about these trade-offs, but for for now, the
45:57
government folks who are talking about issuing anchor core
46:03
credentials in Europe is sort of a national ID card.
46:05
In the United States, it's something like a driver's
46:07
license to a phone. They want to know that you can't
46:12
extract that credential and move it to another phone.
46:16
Well, in order to do that key binding onto the device, the
46:20
cryptography is whatever is in the phone which is not capable
46:24
of doing the type of signatures that the selective disclosure,
46:30
the algorithms do, right. So there's been a lot of
46:35
discernment and gnashing about how do we ship product in the
46:39
coming year and how do we support it doing as good a job
46:44
as it can and and hopefully in the coming years get to those
46:48
more advanced you know, features of selective disclosure and
46:51
privacy. You know, ZKPS even, but still
46:55
have it anchored to the phone in a way that governments are have
46:57
confidence is not being moved. I don't think that we as a
47:01
community really thought about all those things early on when
47:04
we were innovating in the verifiable credentials
47:06
community. But we've certainly been you
47:09
know, challenged and pushed by folks coming from another
47:12
direction, which is the ISOMDL protocol work coming out of that
47:18
much older, more conservative SDO that is driven by long
47:26
standing, you know, folks who've been working on developing
47:30
credentials that are issued by governments for hundreds of
47:34
years and governments themselves.
47:37
So there's I think a healthy kind of interaction between
47:41
different protocol development communities and their needs in
47:45
the marketplace. And hopefully in the next, you
47:49
know two years, the best of these different worlds will
47:53
align more and there will be I, I I don't think competition's
47:58
gonna be go away back to like, you're gonna have a wallet.
48:01
It's gonna speak more than one protocol, but there'll be a kind
48:04
of steady state of good options. I feel like most things, there's
48:08
probably some sender compromise that needs to come through
48:11
because I guess I think about this as a bystander.
48:15
What good is a protocol or a standard if it's not usable in
48:19
the real world? And the fact is that there are
48:21
things that we have to get done in the real world.
48:23
That will, you know, cause consternation amongst different
48:28
parties and it's just about trying to find the right
48:29
balance. Is that, is that a healthy way
48:31
for me to look at it or is there another way that I should be
48:34
thinking about this? Yeah, I mean that's one how
48:38
that's that's one way to look at it.
48:39
I also think like key actors have a significant influence on
48:43
what will happen and we're seeing this right now with the
48:45
EU digital identity initiatives and their architecture reference
48:50
framework for wallets where they're deciding like which
48:53
versions and which profiles of those versions of the protocols
48:59
will be required in digital wallets that are part of this
49:06
sort of EU wide effort. All right.
49:09
Well, I want to be respectful of your time, who's been very
49:11
generous and speaking with us. Today I'm going to shift
49:15
completely away from identity, a different identity for Kalia
49:19
Young, that of an athlete. The Canadian National team water
49:24
polo. I can't imagine playing water
49:26
polo. I I think I would just sink
49:28
right to the bottom of the of the pool.
49:31
Talk to me about, you know your your experiences being part of
49:35
the national team. Do you have like really cool
49:37
water polo moments? Is there like, oh, that was
49:40
like, you know, awesome. Or maybe there's like, maybe a
49:43
not awesome story you've got. Yeah.
49:47
I mean, I started playing when I was 10 years old.
49:50
I was always drawn to the water. My name in a Hindu mythology is
49:55
a sea serpent. My Canadian parents had no idea
50:00
this was the case. I learned just after the
50:02
Internet came about. And you're like, take your name
50:04
and you're like, that's interesting.
50:06
So I was always like, you know, sign me up for swim lessons when
50:10
I was four years old. Joined those, one of the swim
50:13
teams at six, joined the more competitive swim team later on.
50:19
And water polo was free in the summer if you were under like
50:23
12. So mom's like go to water polo
50:27
and then we could play water polo in the fall and still keep
50:33
our summer swimming status. And I just really thrived and
50:39
loved it. And I happened to be quite tall,
50:42
if you've met me. So I had some like size
50:46
advantage. And we actually played mixed
50:50
water polo growing up because you had to have two girls in the
50:54
water at the time, all the time being the large girl that helped
50:59
to and not playing dive. And it's hard to describe how
51:04
much it meant to me in terms of a place to go where I was
51:12
supported, coached good. Like, I remember being in
51:19
elementary school and just being like, school sucks, but I've got
51:23
water on the weekend. So, like, let's do that.
51:27
And it was really me. Like, some people have, like,
51:30
you know, athletic parents. I was the athletic kid.
51:33
Like, let me play more, please, Mom and Dad.
51:36
And they're like, OK, so another fact where I grew up, you know,
51:40
sometimes kids are in sports and they're like competing for their
51:44
spot on the travel team when they're 10 years old.
51:47
We were like begging girls to come and play.
51:50
So we had enough people just to make a team, right?
51:53
We're like, OK, we've got eight kids, we can go to the
51:56
tournament and like, the Max on a team is 14, right?
51:59
Like, So then I tried out for the the junior national team and
52:06
that was totally trippy because I'd never had to try out for a
52:09
team of my whole life, right. And what?
52:13
Was the try out like like what did they like?
52:15
Is it play a match? Is it like, yeah.
52:18
I mean, it's sort of like a weekend of really intensive both
52:23
like, you know, times like swim tests and like drills and like
52:28
kind of practice where they're like watching everything you do.
52:32
And it was very hard for me in terms of mentally, 'cause I just
52:37
never done that before. And I turned to Western sports
52:40
psychology that wasn't particularly helpful.
52:43
And then I turned to some Eastern sports psychology and
52:46
that was very helpful. It was much more in alignment
52:49
with sort of my demeanor in the kind of sports psychology where
52:54
you're like, thank you to my opponent for helping me run
52:57
faster on the marathon. Like I'm like there's a
53:01
different kind of, you know, not like beat them like or whatever,
53:06
you know, Western sports psychology.
53:08
It's like, well, yeah, and I managed to make that junior
53:12
national team I I that led me to play water pool at UC Berkeley.
53:19
I was recruited after I sent letters to different teams
53:24
saying I'm here in Canada playing for the junior national
53:28
team. I'm interested.
53:30
I was recruited by UC Berkeley's new coach in May of I Won't Say
53:35
the Year. Can we bleep it out, Jeff?
53:37
Can we bleep it out like I was recruited to Cal the first year
53:41
they had a women's varsity team and I still hold the record for
53:45
a leading scorer as most number of goals scored as a freshman.
53:49
Wow. And I ended my national team
53:53
career winning a gold medal at Pan American Games.
53:57
That is super cool when you watch, I guess water polo Now is
54:03
it like me in the restaurant business where I used to be a
54:05
server and I can, I know what's going on behind the scenes?
54:08
Like, do you watch technique? Do you watch strategies?
54:12
Like, I have no idea. I'm just like, I don't know how
54:15
these people do it. Like what should I be looking
54:17
for? Is like a I actually went back
54:20
and started playing with the local, mostly men's masters
54:25
pickup game. I stopped last January partly
54:28
because practice was too late at night and I had to keep waking
54:32
up at 6:30 in the morning for work calls.
54:35
I was like work swamp, but I think too.
54:41
The other thing that's been frustrating for me is they keep
54:44
changing the rules. So the the, the rules and the
54:47
game that I played growing up has shifted and I kind of like,
54:55
could you just leave the room because they keep wanting to
54:57
make the game more exciting for European television audiences
55:02
like. What's an example like what
55:04
rule? Has changed that is like that
55:08
you can now if you get fouled outside 5 meters you can take a
55:14
shot. They've been, they've changed
55:17
how they call fowls in the center forward position to be
55:22
much more aggressive on leading to kick outs.
55:26
It's sort of like, yeah, but I love watching water polo.
55:31
And in fact, I'm super excited about what we're seeing with
55:35
some of the new, you know, like this year I've tuned into
55:41
international matches that are being broadcast online.
55:44
You know, there's lots of people who play esoteric sports who
55:48
would love to watch their sport if only they could.
55:51
And now they can, right, 'cause I, you know, I didn't play
55:54
baseball, football, basketball, are those.
55:59
There's four of them. Hockey.
56:01
Hockey. Yeah, no.
56:03
None of them hockey. I grew up in Vancouver.
56:08
There's no ice here. Jim, could you play water polo?
56:11
I mean, you're tall. I've played like modified water
56:14
polo where it's like standing level water and I love it.
56:18
I mean, I think the form of the game is great, but being in deep
56:22
water and treading water for a long period of time is very,
56:27
very difficult. If you've never done it, like
56:30
don't take it for granted. So Khalid, I have a ton of
56:33
respect that you can like you just do that part.
56:36
I'm impressed by but I played. Baseball growing up and a lot of
56:41
what Kalia said, like, resonated with me there, you know?
56:45
Well, one thought I had was just kind of watching the game on TV
56:49
Now, like, I'm so impressed by some of the athletes.
56:53
And I realized, like, no matter what I did in my life, I would
56:56
never be like that person. You know, I played third base.
56:59
I watch. I remember having this thought
57:02
like 10-15 years ago about Chris Bryant, who was the 3rd baseman
57:07
for the Cubs. And he made some play.
57:09
And I was like, yeah, I I never could have done that no matter
57:12
what I did in my life. But also there's the sport that
57:17
they're constantly changing the rules now they do a pitch clock
57:20
and some various things like that.
57:23
And it's my feeling is it's like they're very focused on drawing
57:27
in. People who don't like baseball
57:30
just start liking baseball. And in my experience, good luck
57:35
with that one of people who don't like baseball.
57:37
We'll never like baseball. Case in point.
57:39
I just don't get it. I mean, I get it.
57:41
I understand. I just, it has.
57:42
I have zero interest in baseball.
57:46
I don't know what it is. It's not.
57:48
I mean, I'm AI guess I'm a Cubs fan.
57:50
It was nice to see them finally win something.
57:51
But, you know, this goes back to the first time Jim and I met.
57:54
The first thing he said to me is, hey, do you like baseball?
57:56
And I said no. And he walked away from me like
57:59
I, you know, I just, it's just not my thing.
58:01
I'm an NFL person. I like football.
58:02
I mean, I grew up playing basketball, soccer, you know,
58:06
football. I did Taekwondo and stuff like
58:08
that. I even did gymnastics, did
58:10
swimming and stuff like that. Was just kind of more of a
58:13
general purpose athlete than like a specialist in anything.
58:15
But there are certain things that I gravitate to.
58:19
Baseball is is not one of them. All right, we've been talking
58:23
for over an hour here. Kalia, you've been so generous
58:26
with your time. We're gonna have AI think this
58:29
might be a record for the number of links that we'll have in our
58:31
show notes. We'll have a spot where you can
58:34
connect with Kalia on LinkedIn. You can ask her questions.
58:38
We'll have a link to the blog that you wrote exploring
58:41
approaches to digital wallets, of course, the link to
58:44
identitywoman.net, so be able to check that out, what you're
58:47
working on, the links to your books, the Identisphere
58:50
newsletter, the Internet Identity Workshop or IW.
58:55
Jim and I will have a link for the Identiverse conference,
58:57
things that are coming up. There's the one in New York City
58:59
on December 1st, and then on the following week there's one in
59:02
Chicago, albeit the New York City one.
59:05
Not going to be at the Chicago one, so hopefully people come
59:08
and check that out. Of course, you know, you can
59:09
always connect with Jim and I on LinkedIn.
59:11
That's where we get a lot of good conversations and stuff
59:13
going like that. But yeah, well I have one more
59:17
thing that seems like it would be great to share with your
59:19
listeners is that we've we've actually this year expanded our
59:26
IIW universe to include regional events.
59:30
So we have a regional event in Europe called the Digital
59:33
Identity on Conference Europe that's happening in June and
59:36
we're exploring a regional event in South Africa in March.
59:42
And we're exploring a, we did this last year in in the spring,
59:49
but it'll probably be in the fall, in 2024 in AIPAC in
59:53
Thailand. And those use the exact same
59:55
format that we have at IW. So it's an opportunity for the
59:58
your global listeners to potentially connect and not just
1:00:01
have to get to North America to participate?
1:00:05
Yeah, that's so cool. I mean, the world doesn't.
1:00:06
I mean, it seems like sometimes the world revolves around stuff
1:00:09
going to the US, but not necessarily.
1:00:11
Shouldn't I see some things on the website
1:00:13
internetidentityworkshop.com ethics referencing the April,
1:00:18
the spring and the fall. Those are the ones you're
1:00:19
talking about. Where where do people go to get
1:00:21
more information at? Is that just on the website?
1:00:23
Yeah. And then next week, probably by
1:00:27
the time most folks listen, we're working on getting a
1:00:29
regional events page up that will have more information.
1:00:32
Very cool. That's good information.
1:00:35
So hopefully people can check that out.
1:00:37
And yeah, I think that's a good spot where we can leave it for
1:00:40
this week. Jim and I, we're on the web,
1:00:42
idscpodcast.com on Twitter at IDSC podcasts, at Mastodon or
1:00:49
no, we're on Mastodon at IDC podcast at Infosex dot Exchange.
1:00:53
I still hate the way that that name works, but it is what it
1:00:56
is. Thanks everyone for listening
1:00:59
and we'll go and talk the other one in the next one.
1:01:02
You've been listening to Identity at the Center.
1:01:05
We hope you've enjoyed the show. Make sure to like, rate and
1:01:10
review and we'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hit the
1:01:13
website at identity@thecenter.com and find
1:01:17
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1:01:25
the center.