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Thrillers Come Home with Courtney Psak · WriterCon

0:00
Speaker 1: This week on the writer Con podcast.
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Speaker 2: I feel like I did things the hard way because
0:05
Speaker 2: I didn't know about organizations before. Like I'm on Mistery
0:09
Speaker 2: Writers of America. Now there's Women's Fiction Association. All of
0:13
Speaker 2: these organizations are so great when you're first, especially when
0:15
Speaker 2: you're first starting out.
0:16
Speaker 1: Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
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Speaker 1: share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
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Speaker 1: hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
0:26
Speaker 1: the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, Award
0:29
Speaker 1: winning author of the want Ln Files book series.
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Speaker 3: Thank you, Jesse Ulrich. Hey, they're writers. Thanks for joining
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Speaker 3: us today. It's good to be back here recording with
0:43
Speaker 3: my peeps. People actually still say peeps. My embarrassing myself
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Speaker 3: is this.
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Speaker 1: Is like, those are two different questions.
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Speaker 3: This is like I was going to say when I
0:57
Speaker 3: was a kid, you're not that young old and like
1:03
Speaker 3: the first iteration of teen Titans, Wonder Girl would be
1:07
Speaker 3: saying things like, hey, let's go to that groovy happening
1:11
Speaker 3: and wrap. I mean, even if you're eight, they're pretty
1:15
Speaker 3: cringe inducing. I don't want to be that guy? Am
1:17
Speaker 3: I that guy? Tell me the truth?
1:18
Speaker 1: You're not that guy.
1:22
Speaker 3: I noticed Laura is remaining silent. Whatever.
1:26
Speaker 4: Okay, I think it's okay to say peeps.
1:29
Speaker 3: Okay if you're talking about those easter candy things or
1:34
Speaker 3: just any I.
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Speaker 1: Think in general, honestly, if those easter things would stop existing,
1:38
Speaker 1: I'd be fine with that. But that's a personal thing.
1:41
Speaker 3: That's a whole different, won't Everybody here has been traveling, right,
1:48
Speaker 3: like Jesse's been in Vegas, and Laura you've been in
1:52
Speaker 3: Connecticut hanging with the daughters. Right, did you do anything
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Speaker 3: bookish bookstores, indie bookstores or a lot.
2:00
Speaker 4: Of I got to eat Mystic pizza and went to
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Speaker 4: the Mystic Aquarium, and I hiked the Blue Gorge in
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Speaker 4: New Hampshire, But nothing really book related.
2:11
Speaker 3: Now, lots of fun things, sound and Jesse you were
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Speaker 3: It's okay.
2:17
Speaker 4: I was okay with a break from from Okay, it's
2:22
Speaker 4: a hockey game that was literary.
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Speaker 1: Sure, I feel like I feel like that's mean towards
2:29
Speaker 1: hockey players.
2:30
Speaker 3: Is also the whole.
2:33
Speaker 1: And yeah, a hockey romance line we were talking.
2:37
Speaker 3: About at some good memory.
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Speaker 4: Good job, you called me the literary.
2:41
Speaker 1: Italian one of us these episodes twice, so I.
2:47
Speaker 4: Remember I even read one of them, so I really
2:51
Speaker 4: should have remembered that.
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Speaker 3: Sorry, the rest of us just show up right. Jesse's
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Speaker 3: the glue. Anyway, I was saying, so you were in
3:00
Speaker 3: Vegas for this D and D thing?
3:03
Speaker 1: How I was this?
3:05
Speaker 3: How's that a spectator sport?
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Speaker 1: Again? It's an incredible feat of storytelling where this one
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Speaker 1: guy has to wrangle six of his improv friends to
3:16
Speaker 1: complete a story from beginning middle to end in about
3:19
Speaker 1: a three hour span in front of people, also involving
3:23
Speaker 1: dice that can randomly take the story in one direction
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Speaker 1: versus another. It's it's a lot of fun. It's one
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Speaker 1: impressive when it's done well, and two it's a lot
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Speaker 1: of fun.
3:34
Speaker 3: Do they have time limits or using the location has a.
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Speaker 1: Time limit? It's usually around eleven PM that most of
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Speaker 1: it is, though, even though this arena was inside the
3:46
Speaker 1: MGM Grands, I don't know why they made us end
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Speaker 1: at eleven, but.
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Speaker 3: We did, all right. Vacation time is over and now
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Speaker 3: we are going to talk about books sad and that
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Speaker 3: includes our interview today with Courtney sac author of a
4:02
Speaker 3: new thriller titled The Tutor that people are calling Palm
4:05
Speaker 3: Royal meets the White lotus and is exploring themes like
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Speaker 3: legacy and privilege and motherhood and she's fascinating to talk
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Speaker 3: to and listen to it. We'll be talking with her
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Speaker 3: very soon.
4:20
Speaker 5: But first the news.
4:38
Speaker 3: So today we're having a special all litigation, all lawsuits
4:43
Speaker 3: all the time. In addition to the news we cause
4:48
Speaker 3: for excitement. We've got at least three different lawsuits in
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Speaker 3: the air that relate to writers, one positive, the other
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Speaker 3: two I don't know. I'm counting on my crack team
4:58
Speaker 3: of analysts to explain it at all to me. That's
5:01
Speaker 3: you Jesse and you Lara first, and what I'm going
5:05
Speaker 3: to call a big victory for the First Amendment. After
5:08
Speaker 3: two years of litigation about this House bill that would
5:12
Speaker 3: allow book rating, a federal judge has granted somemary judgment
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Speaker 3: and ordered a permanent injunction to block the mandatory book
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Speaker 3: rating law. The court said the law is void for
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Speaker 3: vagueness and is also quote an unconstitutional prior restraint, which
5:31
Speaker 3: is a fancy cool judicial way of saying it violates
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Speaker 3: the First Amendment. And most people thought this was a
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Speaker 3: good thing for writers and booksellers and publishers and readers
5:44
Speaker 3: and everybody else team, Can we agree this is a
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Speaker 3: positive development?
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Speaker 1: Yes, I mean is still.
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Speaker 4: Thinking thinly veiled way to ban books? The rating too
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Speaker 4: much like banning too Yeah, they.
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Speaker 1: Were trying to formalize a way to bantertain books by
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Speaker 1: making them like R rated or whatever. Yeah, as we
6:08
Speaker 1: know with movies doesn't really do a good job of
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Speaker 1: rating movies anyway.
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Speaker 4: Anyway, Why why bring it over to books?
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Speaker 1: Yeah?
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Speaker 3: Right, all right? News story number two or lawsuit number two?
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Speaker 3: I should say something that's even weirder. Author Michael Wolf
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Speaker 3: sues Milania Trump. Okay, we're going to discuss this team
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Speaker 3: without getting political in any way. I'm sure that will
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Speaker 3: muzzle all of you. But what's going on here? Why
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Speaker 3: is well known author nonfiction author Wolf suing Milania Well,
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Speaker 3: because she and her husband threatened to come after him.
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Speaker 3: He's working on a book. He's already done one what
6:50
Speaker 3: was it, Fire and Fury? I think about Trump, And
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Speaker 3: now he's doing another one about them, and they're and
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Speaker 3: focusing on alleged ties to Jeffrey Epstein, not only by
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Speaker 3: him but by her. So she was threatening him with
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Speaker 3: a one billion dollar lawsuit. He's now suing her, saying
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Speaker 3: that her legal threats are this is a quote intended
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Speaker 3: to shut down legitimate inquiry into the Epstein murder. End quote.
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Speaker 3: So what I saw just two days ago as we're
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Speaker 3: recording this is that Michael Wolfe, who is you know,
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Speaker 3: seventy two years old, not somebody you expect to be
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Speaker 3: a big social media star, but he started doing this saga.
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Speaker 3: He looks straight into the camera and explains his points,
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Speaker 3: and that popularity from social media has translated into a
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Speaker 3: crowd funding campaign. As we sit here, he's raised over
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Speaker 3: half a million dollars which he plans to use to
7:53
Speaker 3: And this is a quote depose the President and the
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Speaker 3: first lady end quote. So at what point did this
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Speaker 3: stop being about books and turn into something? I don't know,
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Speaker 3: Jesse that this is like a He's It's like wolf
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Speaker 3: is making a preemptive strike against someone who was at
8:16
Speaker 3: least trying to intimidate him, if not silence him. What
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Speaker 3: do you think do you approve?
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Speaker 1: So listen without Gang. I can do this without Gang.
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Speaker 1: Clinical Oh good, Like this is a tactic that Donald
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Speaker 1: Trump has used in the past to silence people or
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Speaker 1: to stop bigger suits from coming. So using that tool
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Speaker 1: against him, I feel like in this case is appropriate,
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Speaker 1: So good on him.
8:40
Speaker 3: Stand up to it. Laura, I think I heard you
8:43
Speaker 3: murmur an assent or.
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Speaker 4: Something absolutely like in our first news story we were
8:48
Speaker 4: talking about it. It's a way of banning books. This
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Speaker 4: is a this is trying to inhibit free speech, and
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Speaker 4: I don't approve. We should be able to investigate things
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Speaker 4: and find out exactly what happened, and there's there's not
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Speaker 4: a way available to us to truly get to the
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Speaker 4: truth of anything. If people are silencing those who are investigating,
9:14
Speaker 4: journalists should be able to investigate, right.
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Speaker 3: What's interesting to me is that if you know, if
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Speaker 3: this survives all the preliminary emotions and challenges and becomes
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Speaker 3: an ongoing lawsuit, Wolf would be entitled to take depositions
9:30
Speaker 3: from the parties on the other side, like the current
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Speaker 3: president and first Lady. And I don't really you know,
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Speaker 3: they'd mess around and you have to schedule it, but
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Speaker 3: I don't think you'd avoid it. I remember Clinton was presidency.
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Speaker 1: In civil cases, you can depose the president, so.
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Speaker 3: And if his subject is you know, the Epstein thing,
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Speaker 3: and it's not looking like those files are coming out
9:54
Speaker 3: anytime soon, so wouldn't that be an interesting but it
9:57
Speaker 3: also doesn't.
9:59
Speaker 4: Look like this stories going away.
10:01
Speaker 3: So yeah, all right. Lawsuit number three Simon and Schuster.
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Speaker 3: That's the Big five New York publisher is suing the
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Speaker 3: estate of author Nelson de mill I've met a bunch
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Speaker 3: of you will remember de mill On his many, many,
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Speaker 3: sometimes military, usually thrilleristic books very popular. So it turns
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Speaker 3: out late in life he signed a three book deal,
10:27
Speaker 3: did the first two, but he didn't finish the third
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Speaker 3: book before he passed away. So now basically Simon and
10:33
Speaker 3: Schuster is trying to recruit recoup the advance they paid
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Speaker 3: for the third book. They're saying, as well as money
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Speaker 3: they paid for an outline, because they paid six hundred
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Speaker 3: and something for you know, the book, and then six
10:50
Speaker 3: hundred and something again just for the outline. Where is
10:55
Speaker 3: that deal when I'm looking for it anyway? Digress, So
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Speaker 3: they want the money back his heerrors, his kids are
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Speaker 3: saying they never actually paid it. So they're trying to
11:06
Speaker 3: get back something we know that we never actually received.
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Speaker 3: They're saying this is all about market sales. Impossible to
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Speaker 3: believe that the Big five would care about sales. But
11:19
Speaker 3: here's a quote. Simon and Schuster wanted to escape what
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Speaker 3: it considered costly over market legacy pricing given the decreasing
11:28
Speaker 3: profitability of the general major fiction market. End quote. So
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Speaker 3: you hear what they're saying there. They're saying Dad was
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Speaker 3: a legacy author getting paid those big advantages advances which
11:41
Speaker 3: in today's market you could not possibly make it back.
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Speaker 3: They're just trying to get out of the deals, or
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Speaker 3: get out of the deal altogether because it didn't turn
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Speaker 3: out well. Jesse, what are your thoughts here?
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Speaker 1: Well, first of all, one, if they didn't actually pay
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Speaker 1: the family this or pay the author this, yeah, that
12:01
Speaker 1: wouldn't make it quick. Yeah that that should be over
12:03
Speaker 1: pretty quickly. Then let's done this. And if they did
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Speaker 1: pay the family and or they did pay the offer
12:10
Speaker 1: this money, too bad, Like it's a contract you signed
12:14
Speaker 1: with him, right he's dead, so like it.
12:18
Speaker 3: Doesn't seem right to me that. But I guess when
12:22
Speaker 3: millions are at stake, the rules change and they.
12:25
Speaker 1: Do things they might not get know the circumstances. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: i'man sure the family could pay some of them back
12:30
Speaker 1: if if, if they wanted to, But legally, morally, I don't.
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Speaker 1: I don't like I'm not on the Simon and Schuster
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Speaker 1: side most of the time anyway, But I'm definitely not
12:40
Speaker 1: on their side here, Like, it's not like this is
12:43
Speaker 1: just like universities who get mad when they have to
12:45
Speaker 1: pay a coach that they fired their buy out claws.
12:48
Speaker 1: You made the contract made, it's your fault.
12:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, And they don't know for certain that the kids
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Speaker 3: would even inherit it enough yeah to cover this saying
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Speaker 3: what do you think?
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Speaker 4: So, first of all, it seems like it should be
13:04
Speaker 4: pretty easy to determine. There should be some record of
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Speaker 4: that payout. It's it's it seems odd to me that
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Speaker 4: that is even a point of contention. But sh see,
13:16
Speaker 4: I see it as a little gray er. Yes, the
13:20
Speaker 4: deal was made with the author. So we've always heard
13:24
Speaker 4: that advances are just paid and then royalties sort of
13:30
Speaker 4: pay out against that, and you don't make any royalties
13:33
Speaker 4: until that's it, so you don't normally get asked to
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Speaker 4: return the advance. But that that was contingent upon receipt
13:41
Speaker 4: of the third novel, which they didn't actually receive. But
13:48
Speaker 4: now it's not the author, it's the somebody else airs
13:53
Speaker 4: of the author, So oh, it's it's sticky. I don't love.
13:56
Speaker 3: It's like I said, it wouldn't exist, I think, except
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Speaker 3: millions are involved.
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Speaker 1: So also like by doing this lawsuit, they're putting this
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Speaker 1: author's name back out there, which is probably going to
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Speaker 1: drive book sales.
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Speaker 3: You know there is that, so put them back on
14:13
Speaker 3: the top of the charts. All right, let's move to
14:16
Speaker 3: our Craft Corner segment, except, of course, as I'm about
14:22
Speaker 3: to explain, there's not going to be a new Craft
14:24
Speaker 3: Corner segment, and there's a reason we have a big
14:29
Speaker 3: bit of bad news and sadness to convey to you.
14:34
Speaker 3: This timing Craft Corner. One of our best friends and
14:37
Speaker 3: best supporters has passed away, and that was John Myers.
14:42
Speaker 3: It was very unexpected. He's been a writer con regular
14:45
Speaker 3: for many years. He's a warm and wonderful person. We
14:50
Speaker 3: already miss him. He did several Craft Corners and he
14:54
Speaker 3: wrote the book Write Better Together. And we're really going
14:59
Speaker 3: to anyway, So we're gonna let Craft Corner go silent
15:03
Speaker 3: this time, thinking of him and his honor. But we
15:06
Speaker 3: will be back next time with a terrific Craft Corner
15:10
Speaker 3: segment from our good friend TAMRAA.
15:14
Speaker 4: Grantham.
15:14
Speaker 3: All right, now, let's talk to Courtney Courtney Zach, Welcome
15:29
Speaker 3: to the podcast.
15:31
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me, Thank.
15:33
Speaker 3: You for being here. Okay, traditional first question, if you
15:36
Speaker 3: could offer writers one piece of advice, what would it be.
15:41
Speaker 2: You know, I was thinking to myself, you know, I
15:44
Speaker 2: feel like I did things the hard way because I
15:46
Speaker 2: didn't know about organizations before. Like I'm on Mistery Writers
15:50
Speaker 2: of America. Now there's Women's Fiction Association. All of these
15:54
Speaker 2: organizations are so great when you're especially when you're for
15:57
Speaker 2: starting out, because not only is there a community there
15:59
Speaker 2: critique writers, but also just when you're trying to look
16:02
Speaker 2: into like forensics experts and you know, FBI police ride alongs,
16:07
Speaker 2: all those things. It was just extremely helpful. And then
16:10
Speaker 2: you know, finding events where you can actually pitch to
16:13
Speaker 2: an agent in person rather than just kind of doing
16:15
Speaker 2: the cold querying. So those are things I really wish
16:19
Speaker 2: I had done earlier.
16:20
Speaker 3: On Yeah, very good points. Now you started as a writer.
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Speaker 3: You probably did other things, but you started writing for
16:30
Speaker 3: writing and editing for magazines like Cosmo and other cool stuff. Right.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know I went to school as a
16:37
Speaker 2: journalists major. I really my whole you know, Devil Wars product,
16:41
Speaker 2: fantasy of working in the magazine industry and writing books
16:45
Speaker 2: on the side. So, yeah, I had interned for Cosmo
16:49
Speaker 2: South Magazine. I was going for my master's in publishing
16:52
Speaker 2: when I was working with Modern Bride, and then just unfortunately,
16:56
Speaker 2: I graduated in two thousand and eight and financial crisis
16:59
Speaker 2: hit and all of a sudden and all the job
17:01
Speaker 2: opportunities went away. But you know, thankfully with a communications degree,
17:06
Speaker 2: I pivoted to Nickelodeon and I was a project manager
17:11
Speaker 2: there and you know, still you know, writing books on
17:14
Speaker 2: the side.
17:14
Speaker 3: While I did that, right, and eventually that paid off,
17:18
Speaker 3: I guess, right.
17:20
Speaker 4: But your first book was Thirty Days to Thirty Yeah,
17:24
Speaker 4: I have a thriller, the Tutor. Can you tell us
17:28
Speaker 4: about that?
17:28
Speaker 5: Yeah?
17:29
Speaker 2: So the Tutor is about this woman named Rose. She's
17:32
Speaker 2: a widow but a dedicated mother to her son, James.
17:36
Speaker 2: You know, they're kind of all they have now. She's
17:38
Speaker 2: a struggling artist, but they really never had a fam
17:41
Speaker 2: you know, she never had a family before she was
17:42
Speaker 2: an orphan. Her husband was a good father, but not
17:45
Speaker 2: a good husband, and his family was out of the picture.
17:48
Speaker 2: And you know, incomes this guy Grant, who sweeps her
17:51
Speaker 2: off her feet and shortly after they get married, he
17:53
Speaker 2: finds out that his mother, Evelyn, has been diagnosed with Parkinson,
17:56
Speaker 2: so he asked if they'd be willing to move down
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Speaker 2: to Palm Beach to help her, and you know, she
18:01
Speaker 2: wants to be a good wife, so that's what she does.
18:03
Speaker 2: But the problem is is that Grant comes from a
18:05
Speaker 2: very generational, wealthy family, and Evelyn's very much used to
18:08
Speaker 2: getting her way, and she makes it very clear to
18:11
Speaker 2: Rose early on that she doesn't think that she's good
18:12
Speaker 2: enough for her for her son. She starts off with
18:15
Speaker 2: bribery and then when that doesn't work, starts digging into
18:18
Speaker 2: Rose's past and then finds something unsavory things and decides
18:22
Speaker 2: to blackmail her. But Rose is obviously, you know, because
18:26
Speaker 2: she grew up by herself. You know, she's tough as well,
18:29
Speaker 2: and she while she knew Grant's father passed away twenty
18:31
Speaker 2: years ago, she discovers that it was under suspicious circumstances,
18:34
Speaker 2: so she thinks maybe Evelyn's got some skeletons in her
18:37
Speaker 2: closet as well. Yeah, and insert Isabelle, who is you know,
18:41
Speaker 2: about two years out of college. Her grandmother, who was
18:44
Speaker 2: her only living relative, passes away and she discovers the
18:48
Speaker 2: secret about the Caldwell family and becomes obsessed with them
18:52
Speaker 2: and follows them from New York to Palm Beach, edging
18:55
Speaker 2: her way up his tutor and starts to do a
18:58
Speaker 2: little a little investigating on her own. And when she
19:00
Speaker 2: starts demanding answers, you know, these three stories collide and
19:04
Speaker 2: it just shakes this family's foundation to its very core.
19:09
Speaker 5: Wow.
19:10
Speaker 4: So where did you get the idea for that's? That
19:14
Speaker 4: sounds like a lot. Is this based on something that
19:17
Speaker 4: you actually heard about or some stories that truly happened,
19:20
Speaker 4: or did you just invent it all?
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Speaker 2: I pretty much invented all, you know. I think kind
19:24
Speaker 2: of the start of it comes with just trust. You know,
19:28
Speaker 2: how how well can you trust the people that you
19:30
Speaker 2: let into your home? You know? When we so I
19:33
Speaker 2: was from New York, New Jersey area. We moved to
19:35
Speaker 2: Palm Beach for my husband's job, and we didn't know
19:38
Speaker 2: anybody here. So I had an eighteen month old son.
19:41
Speaker 2: So if you need a babysitter, it wasn't even like
19:42
Speaker 2: I had friends yet to like find a reference and
19:45
Speaker 2: like care dot com is great with you know, having
19:47
Speaker 2: background checks, but like my husband, I would be out
19:50
Speaker 2: to dinner and we're still sitting there, Like what if
19:51
Speaker 2: they kidnapp? I'm like, we would go and like come
19:54
Speaker 2: check he's still in the bed, you know, So you
19:57
Speaker 2: could just kind of think about those sort of things,
20:00
Speaker 2: you know, with a tutor, it's not you know, it's
20:03
Speaker 2: you feel like it's pretty harmless. Like she works at
20:05
Speaker 2: the Sun's school because she managed to get a job
20:07
Speaker 2: through maternity leave there, so all the right, you know,
20:11
Speaker 2: like I said, Rose is a good mom. She did
20:12
Speaker 2: her background check on her. But there's a time for everything.
20:17
Speaker 4: Well, I listened. I love to listen to true crime podcasts,
20:20
Speaker 4: and so, yes, this all makes sense to me.
20:25
Speaker 3: And am I right in thinking this book is set
20:27
Speaker 3: in the glittering world of Palm Beach?
20:29
Speaker 2: Yes?
20:30
Speaker 3: Is that in an environment you know something about or
20:33
Speaker 3: you write about.
20:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, I live in Palm Beach, so it was, and
20:37
Speaker 2: I moved here about six years ago, so I can
20:39
Speaker 2: kind of, you know, tap into Rose and this coll
20:42
Speaker 2: like coming into this brand new world and kind of
20:45
Speaker 2: just how amazing it is. But you know, one of
20:48
Speaker 2: the takeaways of my story is that you know, you
20:51
Speaker 2: see Isabelle, Evelyn, and Rose, and they all come from
20:54
Speaker 2: different walks of life and everything. But at the crux
20:58
Speaker 2: of it, you know, nobody can just basic human emotions
21:02
Speaker 2: and trauma, and everybody has their insecurities, their jealousies there,
21:07
Speaker 2: so you know whether or not you agree with any
21:09
Speaker 2: of these characters and their decisions. You start to really
21:11
Speaker 2: understand the basis of it all and how you can't
21:14
Speaker 2: really blame them. You understand why they're coming.
21:16
Speaker 3: From where they are, so you're not going to lose
21:19
Speaker 3: all your friends as soon as your neighbors read this book.
21:22
Speaker 2: I never try to. I don't want anyone for a
21:26
Speaker 2: second to think that anything is based off of them.
21:28
Speaker 3: Yes, I know that feeling, but it still happens.
21:31
Speaker 2: Yes, No, it's anything. I feel like each of those
21:34
Speaker 2: characters are just kind of more a little bit of me,
21:37
Speaker 2: you know, even Evelyn.
21:38
Speaker 3: You're kind of like, yes, completely get she.
21:41
Speaker 2: Just doesn't care, and it's like only I could like
21:44
Speaker 2: just not care and say some of the things that
21:45
Speaker 2: she says.
21:46
Speaker 4: You know, and you know, but then people come to
21:49
Speaker 4: you and they're like, wait, was that me?
21:51
Speaker 2: Like, no, that was me.
21:55
Speaker 3: The book also clearly contains themes about privilege or legacy
22:00
Speaker 3: if you will, and strong themes of motherhood intentional her
22:06
Speaker 3: did that just come out in the writing?
22:09
Speaker 2: The strong themes of motherhood definitely were intentional.
22:13
Speaker 3: You know.
22:13
Speaker 2: I loved putting Rose kind of in the middle of
22:16
Speaker 2: this because she's, you know, she's trying to you know,
22:19
Speaker 2: her art is everything to her and she's about to
22:22
Speaker 2: kind of lose that, and so she's struggling to you know,
22:25
Speaker 2: make sure she does well with that otherwise she you know,
22:28
Speaker 2: that's all going to fall apart for her. She's got
22:31
Speaker 2: this husband now that's you know, very adoring on her
22:34
Speaker 2: and like wants her to be with him all the time,
22:37
Speaker 2: and she's trying to find that balance like I want
22:39
Speaker 2: to be with him and be good for him, but
22:41
Speaker 2: I'm so used to being alone that you know, I
22:44
Speaker 2: like to have my time for myself and.
22:46
Speaker 5: For my art.
22:47
Speaker 2: So she's trying to find like, am I being you know,
22:50
Speaker 2: too distant or am I being is he being too clinging?
22:53
Speaker 2: And then of course she's worrying about her son, you know,
22:55
Speaker 2: he he suddenly has this opportunity now that he's in
22:59
Speaker 2: Palm Beach to at this school that's like the best
23:01
Speaker 2: school in the country, and she just wants him to
23:02
Speaker 2: keep up and That's why she hires the tutor, because
23:05
Speaker 2: she wants him to do well, you know, but she
23:07
Speaker 2: just feels like she's being pulled in three different directions.
23:10
Speaker 2: And you know, we all deal with that struggle with
23:13
Speaker 2: our deal trying to do all the things.
23:15
Speaker 4: So, so, how do you approach a new project? When
23:22
Speaker 4: you're starting a new novel, do you outline? Do you
23:26
Speaker 4: just kind of make some notes.
23:29
Speaker 2: I'm usually a very big outliner. I like to know
23:32
Speaker 2: exactly where I'm going, because otherwise I just wind up
23:34
Speaker 2: writing myself into a corner. His story in particular was
23:38
Speaker 2: kind of interesting because I had I had written it
23:41
Speaker 2: and handed it off to my agent, and as I
23:45
Speaker 2: kind of thought more about it, I was like, you know,
23:46
Speaker 2: this one's a little too predictable, you know, like I
23:49
Speaker 2: feel like I just kind of wrote it. And I
23:52
Speaker 2: was saying earlier to someone else that I kind of
23:55
Speaker 2: compare it to like when you're studying for a test.
23:57
Speaker 2: The teacher to goes okay, you have to study for
23:59
Speaker 2: a test. You're like, yeah, okay, and then it's like, yeah,
24:01
Speaker 2: but the answers are going to be up here for
24:02
Speaker 2: everyone to see what you wrote. And then you're like, oh,
24:05
Speaker 2: I actually really need to go back and look at
24:08
Speaker 2: it again. So when she had told me that editors
24:10
Speaker 2: were interested in it, I was like, all right, I
24:13
Speaker 2: need to fix this. It's not you know, they may
24:15
Speaker 2: like the idea, but it's just it's too predictable in
24:17
Speaker 2: too many ways. And so I went back and you know,
24:21
Speaker 2: made Evelyn a character. It was normally a father in law,
24:24
Speaker 2: and it just wasn't coming off right. And I love
24:26
Speaker 2: the dynamic between Rose and Evelyn and all the undercurrents
24:29
Speaker 2: which you could only get between a mother in law
24:31
Speaker 2: and a daughter in law. And yeah, and then I
24:34
Speaker 2: just went back and changed everything. So I got to
24:36
Speaker 2: a point where I'm like, okay, yeah, this is too predictable.
24:38
Speaker 2: How do I turn it on its head? And then
24:39
Speaker 2: we went that direction. It's like, okay, now we're going
24:41
Speaker 2: this way. And uh So this was the one time
24:43
Speaker 2: where actually I did surprise myself in the end. Overall
24:46
Speaker 2: I had somewhat of an outline, but the ending, I
24:48
Speaker 2: was like, this isn't exciting enough.
24:50
Speaker 4: I need to do something else, and yeah, that's.
24:52
Speaker 2: What kind of came to me. But I really though, yeah, yeah,
24:56
Speaker 2: so it's helpful. But I mean, people that our parents
24:58
Speaker 2: as I'm like, oh, good for you, So I wish
25:00
Speaker 2: I could do.
25:02
Speaker 3: No, I've had the exact same feeling. You're thinking about it,
25:04
Speaker 3: right my planned ending and think, huh, that's kind of boring.
25:08
Speaker 3: So the murderer is exactly who anybody with a brain
25:11
Speaker 3: thought it was all along. No, that's not gonna work.
25:15
Speaker 2: So normally, even with an outline, you know, my my,
25:19
Speaker 2: you know, the who done it changes at the end,
25:21
Speaker 2: but at least like halfway. I'm usually halfway or three
25:24
Speaker 2: quarters of the way when I'm like, all right, we
25:25
Speaker 2: got to turn this one more time, Like how can
25:28
Speaker 2: we do that? About throwing a curveball? That doesn't make sense?
25:32
Speaker 2: You know, you want everything to make sure that in
25:34
Speaker 2: the end everyone's satisfied.
25:36
Speaker 4: Yes, that sounds very familiar. I'm like that, and I
25:40
Speaker 4: think a lot of us are. We have that plan,
25:43
Speaker 4: but then it will modify it as we write and
25:46
Speaker 4: come up with more Yeah.
25:47
Speaker 2: Better right, So yeah, and that like as long as
25:49
Speaker 2: I had that, I don't have to be strict with
25:52
Speaker 2: my outline. It's just I can't just sit down and go, Okay,
25:54
Speaker 2: what am I going to do today, because then I'm just, yeah,
25:57
Speaker 2: I'm going to get myself in a corner.
25:59
Speaker 4: Yeah, but what does a typical writing day look like
26:03
Speaker 4: for you? What's your process?
26:06
Speaker 2: So, yeah, it kind of depends on where in the process.
26:08
Speaker 2: If I'm trying to come up with an idea, you know,
26:10
Speaker 2: living in Florida, can go for long walks and I'll
26:12
Speaker 2: listen to like suspensible music because that keeps me, reminds
26:16
Speaker 2: me like stop worrying about groceries and pick up and
26:18
Speaker 2: like focus on the idea. And then I have the idea,
26:22
Speaker 2: you know, I'll spend a week or two outlining, and
26:25
Speaker 2: then I'll write like the first five chapters, you know,
26:27
Speaker 2: the first ten thousand words I I'll write, and then
26:31
Speaker 2: I kind of take a step back because even though
26:33
Speaker 2: you have your characters in mind, those first ten thousand
26:35
Speaker 2: words give you an idea of like, Okay, what kind
26:38
Speaker 2: of you know, what direction do I want them to be?
26:41
Speaker 2: Do I want them to be sassy? Do I want
26:43
Speaker 2: them to be meek?
26:43
Speaker 3: You know?
26:43
Speaker 2: What kind of character are? And once I have that settled,
26:46
Speaker 2: you know, it's kind of off to the races. And
26:48
Speaker 2: you know that's my favorite part when everything starts to flow,
26:51
Speaker 2: and you know, I drop my kids off at school
26:53
Speaker 2: and then I come back and I have to set
26:54
Speaker 2: an alarm on my phone for when to pick them
26:56
Speaker 2: up because the hours just fly by, right, which is
27:00
Speaker 2: a lot of fun. But I write my first draft
27:02
Speaker 2: is very, very bare bones, So it's just more focusing
27:05
Speaker 2: on the plot, making sure that it makes sense, that
27:08
Speaker 2: my characters make sense. And once that happens, I take
27:12
Speaker 2: a step back and then I go back like a
27:14
Speaker 2: week or two later, and that's when I like make
27:16
Speaker 2: it pretty and do my descriptions and more of my setting.
27:20
Speaker 2: And my agent is a former editor, so what's great
27:22
Speaker 2: is that when I send it to her, she's able
27:24
Speaker 2: to do a you know, once over before we go
27:27
Speaker 2: on submission. But ninety percent of her edits are like
27:31
Speaker 2: or her notes are like, you need to describe more.
27:33
Speaker 2: What are they wearing? Because again I start so bare
27:36
Speaker 2: goones at the beginning that she is to remind me, like,
27:39
Speaker 2: you got to go a little more here with description.
27:42
Speaker 4: That's so helpful. Yeah, What are some of the things
27:46
Speaker 4: that you've learned so far in your writing journey? Something
27:49
Speaker 4: that you might share with our listeners who are possibly
27:53
Speaker 4: aspiring authors themselves.
27:56
Speaker 2: You know, one question you always get asked a lot
27:58
Speaker 2: when you're like on these panels and things like how
28:00
Speaker 2: do you get through writer's block? One thing is, again
28:03
Speaker 2: the reason that I had to go away from pantsing
28:05
Speaker 2: was because I would you get into a corner and
28:08
Speaker 2: then not be able to do it. But I use
28:11
Speaker 2: a program called Scribner, which I absolutely love because again,
28:14
Speaker 2: when you have an outline, you can bounce around. So
28:16
Speaker 2: in one of my books, I remember I got to
28:18
Speaker 2: like the sagging middle, and You're like, all right, how
28:20
Speaker 2: do I You got to make sure that you have
28:22
Speaker 2: enough of a word count, but you need to move
28:24
Speaker 2: the story along and you don't want to bore anyone.
28:26
Speaker 2: So I go, okay, well, what do I want to
28:28
Speaker 2: write it right now? That would be exciting, And I'm like,
28:30
Speaker 2: let me get to the climax. So then I would
28:33
Speaker 2: jump over and I'd write the climax and finish that
28:36
Speaker 2: off to the end, and then I go, Okay, what
28:38
Speaker 2: just happened, what happens right before them? What brings them
28:40
Speaker 2: to this? And I'll start to kind of write backwards,
28:42
Speaker 2: and then I go, oh, this would be good to
28:44
Speaker 2: foreshadow in the middle, And then I go back to
28:45
Speaker 2: the middle and I'll do that, and like sometimes it's like.
28:50
Speaker 4: Until I'm I'm fascinated by this. I don't know if
28:55
Speaker 4: I've ever heard somebody talk about this is going ahead
28:58
Speaker 4: to the climax if they're stuck and working backwards. That's
29:01
Speaker 4: I will keep that in mind. Yeah, No, it.
29:03
Speaker 2: Really is helpful because, yeah, you get so much of
29:07
Speaker 2: that excitement you go, okay, well what's going to get
29:08
Speaker 2: them excited? What brings them to So yeah, I found
29:12
Speaker 2: that to be helpful.
29:14
Speaker 3: All right, Courtney. So we've got The Tutor coming out
29:18
Speaker 3: this month in the United States, already been released in
29:21
Speaker 3: the UK. What are you working on next?
29:25
Speaker 2: So the deal that I have with Hodder and Stoughton
29:28
Speaker 2: in the UK is a three book deal, and my
29:31
Speaker 2: editor's Digital is doing a digital first approach. So the
29:34
Speaker 2: first one came out in August. The paperback will be
29:36
Speaker 2: coming out on Tuesday the eleventh. My second book, actually
29:40
Speaker 2: in the UK, comes out January fifteenth, and the US
29:42
Speaker 2: paperback comes out April twenty first. So I'm already starting
29:46
Speaker 2: to gear up on promoting The Hostess. So that story
29:50
Speaker 2: is about this couple Natalie and Luke, who are able
29:54
Speaker 2: to you know, they hit the jackpot when they show up. Wait,
29:57
Speaker 2: they find this rental house on this gorgeous Southampton is
29:59
Speaker 2: state and it couldn't come at a better time because
30:02
Speaker 2: Natalie has is recovering from brain damage after a traumatic
30:07
Speaker 2: car accident that she had in the city and it's
30:10
Speaker 2: kind of rendered her agoraphobic because when you live in
30:12
Speaker 2: the city, you can't leave without seeing cars everywhere. So
30:14
Speaker 2: her husband Luke is hoping that the open space here
30:17
Speaker 2: and the beach will help her recover. So they get there.
30:20
Speaker 2: It's as beautiful as they were expecting. But when they
30:22
Speaker 2: get into the house, there's this like six foot five
30:24
Speaker 2: intimidating guy who like yells at them to get out,
30:27
Speaker 2: and thankfully the owner of the estate, Sadie, who's very
30:31
Speaker 2: glamorous and charismatic, you know, apologizes it explains like this
30:34
Speaker 2: is her groundskeeper. He suffers from PTSD. He's not used
30:37
Speaker 2: to like social interactions, but he's harmless, so they kind
30:40
Speaker 2: of write it off. They look in the fridge and
30:43
Speaker 2: they see there's like some snacks in the shower. Looked
30:45
Speaker 2: like he has been used, so like, okay, he probably
30:46
Speaker 2: thought this was like his own personal place and now
30:49
Speaker 2: it's not anymore. But you know, Sadie and Natalie really
30:52
Speaker 2: start to hit it off bolt trading war stories because
30:55
Speaker 2: Natalie's an r nurse and Sadie's a former psychiatrist, and
30:58
Speaker 2: they're trying to talk about like what's harder to heal
31:01
Speaker 2: the brain, you.
31:02
Speaker 4: Know, the mind or the body.
31:03
Speaker 2: And so Luke's relieved because he just got this brand
31:05
Speaker 2: new job that puts them in a different tax bracket,
31:07
Speaker 2: but he's got to be in the city and he's
31:09
Speaker 2: got to be working, So he's happy that Sadie and
31:11
Speaker 2: Natalie are connecting and can keep each other company, and
31:13
Speaker 2: she can keep it on Natalie for her, but he
31:16
Speaker 2: no sooner leaves and all of a sudden, these weird
31:17
Speaker 2: things start happening around the house, and Natalie is a
31:20
Speaker 2: very pragmatic person and knows that she has she's suffering
31:22
Speaker 2: a brain injury, and she's like, is my medication causing
31:25
Speaker 2: some of these hallucinations? Is Riley breaking back into this
31:29
Speaker 2: house the groundskeeper and things start to happen, like become
31:33
Speaker 2: more and more sinister, and then she starts to wonder
31:35
Speaker 2: if there was an ulterior motive as to why Sadie
31:38
Speaker 2: rented out this guest house for the first time ever
31:40
Speaker 2: in the middle of July, and she worries that something
31:43
Speaker 2: very terrible has happened here and she needs to get
31:45
Speaker 2: to the bottom of it before something possibly terrible happens
31:47
Speaker 2: to her.
31:49
Speaker 3: So read the tutor now, and then a couple of
31:52
Speaker 3: months we can read the hostess. Right. Fantastic, Courtney, thanks
31:57
Speaker 3: so much for being on the podcast.
31:59
Speaker 2: Of course, thank you so much, which for having me.
32:00
Speaker 2: This was wonderful, Bye bye.
32:03
Speaker 3: Bye, just a few parting words. We have posted more
32:19
Speaker 3: information on the website about this year's writer Con Cruise.
32:23
Speaker 3: This year, we're leaving from Fort Lauderdale. It's an eight
32:27
Speaker 3: day deal. We're going through the Eastern Caribbean, places I
32:31
Speaker 3: myself have never been before, and I think this is
32:35
Speaker 3: really going to be kind of exciting, especially if you're
32:38
Speaker 3: into tropical vistas and beautiful scenery and pebble blue water
32:43
Speaker 3: And is there somebody who listened into that anyway, Laura
32:48
Speaker 3: and I will be on board teaching. Our good friend
32:51
Speaker 3: and fellow writer Betsy Kulakowski will be there. One of
32:55
Speaker 3: the great all time agents, Catherine Sans, will be on
32:59
Speaker 3: board and she'll be to talk to each and every
33:02
Speaker 3: one of our participants, So don't miss out. Plan to
33:05
Speaker 3: be there now. It's March seventh through the fifteenth. Go
33:09
Speaker 3: to the website for more info, which is writer con
33:14
Speaker 3: w R I T E R c o N dot com.
33:19
Speaker 3: All right, all right then, until next time, keep writing
33:25
Speaker 3: and remember you cannot fail if you refused to quit.
33:29
Speaker 3: All right, See you next time.