Latest / Pete Vs Anxiety!!!!! / The importance of Listening

Transcript

The importance of Listening · Pete Vs Anxiety!!!!!

• Peter: Welcome to another exciting episode of Pete Frick Society. guest today is a psychiatrist and a psychoanalyst with more than 50 years of experience as a clinician, educator, and the author of The Listening for a Lifetime, The Artful Science of Psychotherapy. Please welcome in David I. Joseph. David, welcome in, man. How are you doing today? Pete: Ever wish you had someone to talk to anytime, anywhere, matter what you're going through? Meet PsychPAL, your 24-7 AI companion, designed to help you process your thoughts, calm your mind, and keep you moving forward. Chat anytime during a panic attack on a restless night or just when you need to vent. Prefer talking instead of typing? Try voice journaling. PsychPAL listens, transcribes, and truly understands. You can even upload screenshots of tough conversations, and it'll help you unpack how they made you feel. PsychPAL keeps life organized, too. David I Joseph: I'm doing really well. looking forward to our conversation. Peter: So David, 50 years, man, that's an accomplishment, man. That's a lifetime for a lot of people, man. So what are some things people may not know about you? peter: Show ⁓ David I Joseph: Well, may not know much ⁓ than what you just told them. I'm a physician. I went to college thinking I was going to be a psychoanalyst, I changed, thought I going to be. I was an English major, and I thought I would be a writer for a while, of critical fiction, not fiction, ⁓ literary criticism, I decided I didn't enjoy that, so I did go to medical school, and then I... Pete: It can add appointments to your calendar, track your mood, and even summarize your sessions for your therapist so you'll never lose progress. Plus, built-in crisis resources are always just one click away. It's a privacy-first, constantly evolving, made to complement your professional care, not replace it. Ready to try it out? Head over to the link in this episode and use my code, Pete, at checkout to get 20 % off your first month subscription to PsychPAL. PsychPAL, because your mind deserves a companion too. David I Joseph: became a psychiatrist and a psychoanalyst and I've spent over 50 years as an educator. I was the director of a residency program in Washington, D.C. where I've lived since 1971. And then I had psychoanalytic training and I was active in our psychoanalytic institute and I've taught at George Washington University for a long time where I'm a clinical professor. And I recently closed my practice About three years ago, I'm gonna be 85. so I stopped ⁓ I was at the top of my game. Peter: That's awesome, man. So let me ask you this one. So what is psychoanalyst? For people that may not know what that means, maybe break that down for them. Let them know exactly what it is kind of work you do in that area. David I Joseph: Well, it's a great question because when you say psychoanalysis, people have some notion a guy with a beard sitting behind a couch and somebody just going on and on and on and on. And ⁓ a of what psychoanalysis is. At least as I think about psychoanalysis, it's a way of thinking about human experience, all experience, thoughts, our ideas, our dreams, our fantasies. our working, relationships with our kids, with our spouses. And it's a way of understanding and looking at the complexities ⁓ our psychology. It's based a number premises. It doesn't deny the importance of the brain. It doesn't ⁓ deny neurophysiology genetics. But it says that one's experience growing up and one's experiences in life with pains and sometimes its trauma, it shapes who we become, what we protect ourselves from, what, where's ways in which we feel vulnerable and how we protect against that. Peter: Yeah, that's really cool though. I mean, that's a really interesting area to be in. What drove you to go to that area though? mean, that's such a fascinating area to be in in general though. David I Joseph: Well, it is, and it's good question. I think in many ways, although I wasn't aware of it when I was, let's say, in high school, that's when I wrote down my application to college that I wanted to be a psychoanalyst, some ways, I think without knowing it, ⁓ knew I was wrestling with some things and I was much more anxious and tentative than I, and unhappy than I was really aware of and I ⁓ someone to help me. Peter: Yeah. David I Joseph: clear that stuff away so I could be free to become the person I wanted to become. And my was actually, who was a businessman, ⁓ had own analysis. ⁓ And think, from my point of view, I am not making a ⁓ sharp between psychoanalysis and psychotherapy. I don't in my book and I won't in our conversation. This is, it's... ⁓ So my dad had his own analysis which had been life-saving for him. He had a bad skin disease that didn't respond to anything except psychotherapy, ⁓ it cured him. So ⁓ think I knew that. I knew I had my own issues that were troubling me, ⁓ without, as I say, without it being conscious, it steered me to become a psychoanalyst, which has been a very enriching profession from so many different perspectives. Peter: ⁓ yeah, definitely, because you're in such an interesting and unique area of, you know, to be in and things like that too. The things that you're learning and the things, you know, like you said, your dad had a situation where only that could help, you know, and that's interesting too for a lot of people, because a lot of people are like, ⁓ you know, the other way I can think it's like snake oil, but really it's not. It's proof right there. If it worked for your dad, so how are you going to say it didn't work? You know what mean? A lot of people are very skeptic when it comes to those kinds of things, you know. David I Joseph: Well, yeah, I think that's right. look, skepticism is a very useful thing to have. There's an awful lot of snake oil that's being pushed around. I think it's not just to say that psychotherapy works. It's a very personal relationship between a psychotherapist and the person who's coming for help. And you've got to have a good fit. Peter: Yeah. David I Joseph: I mean, this is not like saying surgery works if you need a heart valve replacement. You've got to find the right psychotherapist for you. And that's personal as any other relationship. A friendship, a... Peter: No, think that I think it's a really great point though, David, really quick. I think it's a really good point that you you mentioned that you got to find the right one that fits. I feel like a lot of people feel like it's a one and done type thing. Oh, I'm going to meet some unlike this person instantly. Yeah, but you got to find that person that that matches what you're looking for. You know, and I think that a lot of people don't want to put that work in, though. They just want to come up with a reason why it doesn't work so they can just dismiss it instantly. David I Joseph: Yes, yeah I think that's right because look ⁓ a lot of courage to be in psychotherapy. You've got to be willing to to let somebody earn your trust and then to share with that person things that are important to you but where you feel vulnerable and it's got to the right fit between two people and so it's not that you Peter: Mm-hmm. Yeah. David I Joseph: I don't think about someone being in therapy. I think about, well, they're in therapy with whom? With you, with you, with me, Dr. Freud, and have a very different experience depending upon who their therapist is. Peter: Yeah. Yeah, no, I agree. I agree 100 % with you on that one. Because when I was doing therapy too, it took me a few to find one. Like one, was like at first it was like, it was OK, but then it doesn't fit, you know? And a lot of people are like, I think they're so afraid to say, oh, this isn't working. But it's like they don't realize that a lot of them are already trained to know that. It's like, we know if you don't fit and they're not you guys aren't getting somewhere, it's OK to change and go find somebody that fits better what your your needs are. You know, it's not you're not in a relationship per se, but. You know what mean? Like, you're not in one of those relationships where their feelings are gonna get hurt if you decide to switch and say, decide this is just not working for me, you know, kind of thing. You gotta be honest. Yeah. David I Joseph: I think that's right. And if their feelings are hurt, that's their problem. many people enter therapy because they're afraid of hurting somebody else's feelings. They're afraid that they're too ⁓ or too assertive. But that's therapist's problem. ⁓ If not working, it doesn't mean that psychotherapy won't be helpful. It means that this person isn't the person for you. Peter: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's a really great point that that's what I tell a lot of people too. I'm like, you know, talk therapy when you when you go to it, you got to understand that sometimes this is not a fit. There's people I know that gone through like seven different therapists and they finally found somebody that fit what their need was, you know, and sometimes that's the process you go through. Like, you know, it's like trying on new shoes like you're going to try in a different pair. Oh, I don't like those. I go to the next one. You know, you're not hurting that shoes feeling by changing to something else. You know what saying? It's like and it's funny. David I Joseph: Absolutely. Peter: And it's funny too when I hear people say like, I don't want to go to therapy because I'm going to talk about my feelings. I don't go talking about feelings. I don't know what to tell you. Like, like don't go and waste your money if you're not going to at least put the effort in and talk to somebody. You know what mean? Like you don't have to start up. David I Joseph: Well, yes. And they should ask themselves, when someone says, don't want to talk about my feelings, the question is, well, why not? Are you feeling vulnerable? Are you feeling ashamed? Are you feeling guilty? you worried that the person won't respect you? ⁓ it time for a trusting to develop. Peter: Exactly. Mm-hmm. David I Joseph: somebody who comes to see me right off the bat starts telling me the most personal information, I have to wonder ⁓ are they doing that because they don't even know who I am. You know, they know my credentials, but that doesn't tell you much. Peter: Yeah. No, I think that's a really great point, David. That you said is that someone just comes in and starts dumping off everything and you're like, wait, hold up, wait a minute. This doesn't sound right. Like why are you automatically telling me these things? I think this, we need to establish trust first before we get there. And I love that though, that you're, you're honest about that because I think that that's the first step is that you got to build that relationship with people. Cause I know with my therapist and I was what it's like, we were just talking about, you know, just re we just having a casual conversation at first trying to get to know each other. You know, I could ask her questions. She could ask me questions, you know, things like that, you know, and we just kind of kind of know each other. And it's almost like dating a little bit in a way because you're still you're learning to know each other. Then you get into the deep, deep, deep seated issues and things that you're talking about, depending on what it is that you know it is. You may even know you have some problems like, you know, there's a guest we met that she started doing hypnotherapy. said that she didn't even know that at three years old, she had an incident happen until she went to hypnotherapy because as you know, we know the brain. Remember the body remembers things that the brain had shut off that memory so she wouldn't remember what it was But when she was doing hypnotherapy the hypnotherapist kept telling her hey listen There's something else we need to talk about but we won't talk about it right now Just kept like alluding to something, you know, but we did though which I was like, okay I can respect that he didn't just jump into it go away. Hey, listen, just drop everything off right now You he's like, okay. Well when you're ready, we'll go into that area of what this thing is We need to talk about then she found out what the incident was I thought it was an interesting approach, but at the same time I respected it because he didn't just come in and go, okay, well, we're just going to drop all your interviews for thoughts on you. We'll work to that thought process, to that little area of thing that we need to talk about, which I thought was so fascinating because she's like, well, I didn't even know. I had no idea. from my interviews of things I've learned as I've met different people such as yourself, you know, uh, that the brain shuts off these memories, but the body remembers it because like I have a, I have an abandonment issue when I was younger. So like, David I Joseph: Absolutely. Peter: Every time I go back to the moment, I don't remember the feeling, but I don't remember the exact moment. You know what mean? Like I wasn't replaying the moment. I'm replaying the feelings of that moment though. And things like that too. And there was a gentleman we met, he's been doing psychology for like 35 years. Dr. Tim Blake, him and I were talking and he didn't even know I was even abandoned, but he'd asked me after a few questions and things I said to him, he goes, Hey, let me ask you a question. go, yeah. He goes, were you abandoned when you were younger? He goes, I'm like, how do you know? He goes like, well, based on the way you were saying things. like, After doing like 300 of these interviews, I started doing the same thing. Like I listened to what people say, David, I'm listening to what they're saying. And a lot of times I can identify some things that they've been through, you know, and it's just something I've learned over all these interviews that I'm just listening to different people tell these stories, the dialogue they use, the wordage, you know, the verb is they start using the things they start saying and alluding to. It's like I usually stop most people in conversations that meet me. go, okay, listen, I already know what you're, I already know what you We don't have to go any further in this conversation. We can save this for another time. for a private session, kind of private conversation, you know, because a lot of people meet and want to talk to me about things and they tell me stuff. And I'm just like, I can tell based on a lot of times what they're saying, this conversation is leading most times, which is pretty interesting because that's what Dr. Tim Blake did to me. I was like, okay, now I see what he's talking about. Because after you learn a lot of these, you know, different things that people are talking about, how they start talking about different phrases, they'll use that lead, alluding to these certain situations. I've started learning how to pick up on those kinds of things as I go. And it's, it's been kind of fun. Because in conversations, like a lot of times I already know what people are talking about. And they're very shocked that I already know what area we're heading to for what area of what it was just because I've just kind of listened to everything that goes on. David I Joseph: Yeah, well, mean, what you've learned to do over years ⁓ is learned how to listen. ⁓ I wrote the book and titled it the way I did because it is way in which we listen that has a huge impact on people. listening as a is a different kind of ⁓ listening from listening ⁓ Peter: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. David I Joseph: husband or a father or a friend. Therapeutic listening is its own listening and Peter: Yeah, definitely. David I Joseph: If you learn to listen that way, you can hear all kinds of things that aren't apparent right off the bat. Peter: Yeah. So let's get into the book, Listening for a Lifetime, the Artful Science of Psychotherapy. take us through what was that moment you realized that you're going to write this book? Is this like a collective of all your 50 years of experience and just kind of teaching people that if you do listen, just like you just said, you can learn a lot of things or what? David I Joseph: Well, it's a really interesting question. And answer to the question ⁓ will you because when I realized that it surprised me, I wasn't thinking about writing a book. But ⁓ I teach lot. And two of students one of my fellow faculty members ⁓ said to me, know, have a way of saying things in very succinct ways. Peter: Mm-hmm. David I Joseph: and with succinct phrases that are very useful, and you ought to write a book. And when the third person, it was a faculty member, someone I taught writing with, said, you ought to write a book. Then I said, okay. ⁓ then I was sort of off to the races ⁓ I collected about, I actually got a hundred of them, although I didn't put them all in the book. The book has only got about 50 of aphorisms. I call them aphorisms, short, pithy statements that have a lot of meaning. And I found that the book was just waiting to be written. it just flowed out of me. ⁓ And I learned a great deal about both what I think and about myself in the process of writing it. And I also wanted to write something that who was interested in the experience could benefit from, whether it's my most senior colleagues or whether it's someone who's just curious. And if people can't understand something in my book, then I fail. Peter: I love that though. I love that approach that you have so much knowledge, but the way you break it down, it's easy and digestible for people that just anybody can pick it up and read though. I love the concept of that because I think a lot of those times people see the big words and get worried, but if you're making it more friendly to them like, hey, listen, let me explain this to you. I'm going to give you a big word first, but I'm going to break it down for you so it's understandable. it doesn't seem so scary afterwards. And I love that approach though. David I Joseph: You won't find very many big words in my book. There's not, there's some, but not very many because big words tend to depersonalize the experience and I wanted people, and I say somewhere in the book, when you finish the book, I'd like you to think you had a dialogue with me. it's, ⁓ so big words are sort of push people away and at least for me, good. Peter: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That was so cool though. Mm-hmm. David I Joseph: Good writing invites the reader in. Peter: Yeah, no, you're right. Good thing about any any successful book, how it is they draw people in is it's good writing. It's like, you you want to draw them in to continue to want to read the book. You don't want to scare them and send them away not to read the book, you know, in the high the dialogue you use and everything else, all these different aspects that come in when you're writing the book, though, you know, but you said it was pretty easy to do, though. And you think about it, you like you're thinking about like, where you were to where you're now, like, I just said, I'm have a book written. I'm at years experience. Like thinking about like where you're going to end up, you're like, yeah, you know, I don't know. You know, did you see that as your younger self? Like, Hey, I've had 50 years experience. You know, think about it. If you went and met your younger self and told him, Hey, listen, in X amount of years, you're going to have 50 years experience. You're to have a bit of book written. You're probably laughing at yourself going, okay, yeah, that's cool. You know what I mean? David I Joseph: Yeah, although when I said the book was just waiting to be written, it was, but writing is a real craft and you you refashion it and you think about it and you ⁓ that's not as clear as I want it to be. And a process, it's its own kind of creation. And you're growing, at least for me, I grow when I write. I learn a lot. Peter: Mm. Yeah. Yeah, no, I agree. Like as I do this podcast and the different interviews I do, I learn new things for everybody. I read different books that people have written, you know, stuff like that. There's all new things I applied in my life now, like my, like my current partner now, she has BPD. So I apply a lot of the things I learn about, you know, people that have BPD and like how to approach things to everyday life. And it's interesting to see how people react though. Think about it. Cause with people with BPD, have to, you have to be careful of your tone of voice. Have you cared for the way you explain things to them? Because sometimes they don't totally understand what you're saying. So like when I'm, when I'm messaging her or send her a message or something, I have to think about how I'm saying it because I want to make sure she understands it. And now I apply it to my life now, like before I respond to people, I'm thinking about the answer before I do before I'd used to just shoot off at the hip. Now I'm very, I I'm different how I do it. And people mentioned that now go like, well, you know, I've known Pete for a year now and He's way different now. I don't know what's different, but there's something different about me. It's like, you know, because now I'm looking at things from a different aspect. You know, I'm a year older, but I have more knowledge because of the people I've met along the way. And these interviews, you know, the different things I'm learning, I go explore different avenues of things. read different books. I check out different things people are telling me about, you know, in all these other fascinating things. I'm constantly curious. And that was the one thing a lot of people liked about me was that I'm very curious about their subjects. I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm always interested in new things. You why not? Like, you know, if I can explore a different avenue, why not? Then I go tell people about it. It's even better because the word of mouth right there is like they're teaching me something. I'm learning something. And then I'm taking that. I'm going to teach other people that I'm doing. I'm doing everything they want me to do. I'm teaching them all about it. Hey, listen, have you checked out this really cool book that someone wrote? You know, and I'll start suggesting books to other people, you know, that read books like that. Like, hey, listen, you want to check a really great book? There's some of these really interesting things I've read and these things I've learned. This is where I learned about, you know, and stuff like that, too. So I agree. Like, you know, Learning new things all the time is great for me. I feel like every conversation I go into, I try to learn something out of the conversation with anybody that I get in with. David I Joseph: Well, yeah, and I mean, what psychotherapy is about it's not just about changing behavior, although it may be that if you've got a fear of heights and you work on the 15th story of a building, it's about changing your behavior. But psychotherapy is also learning about yourself, learning things about yourself that are influencing Peter: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thanks. David I Joseph: how you feel about yourself and your relationships and your job. one things about oneself, good things people hide from themselves, troubling things, things they feel guilty about. Or ⁓ the you who had some traumatic event in her childhood that she'd forgotten, she remembers it. And then she can process it in a different way so that it doesn't Peter: Mm-hmm. David I Joseph: distort how she lives her life as much. It'll always have an impact. You can't erase what's on the brain. Peter: Yeah. No, I agree. David I Joseph: but you can change how you deal with it and how it affects your life. Peter: Yeah, no, especially with her condition. Yeah. Like I said, I went through an extensive study. I've talked to a couple of women. He's an expert in the field. Jen, Jen Bellinger, she was actually a guest on the show. She was only top five guests. Actually, she was on the show and her and I stay in constant communication all the time. I mentioned that I started seeing somebody that that had the same condition and she has a great little sub community that I'm a part of that, you know, teaches you different things of like how to you know, be more supportive for your partner if they have that condition. And it's really cool because I'm learning new things all the time about it. And she always sends me videos on Tik Tok and things like that, different videos, really fun, interesting facts that you may not know about people that have BPD. know, I'm always constantly learning new things. And when I met her originally, she had explained a lot of stuff to me too, which is really cool as well. And she was, she was very, she was very impressed. The fact that the extent I went to, because I started doing a lot of research about it, I reached out to Dr. Chen, asked her for some advice. And then she mentioned she had the community. And know, things like that too. And it's been fun. Like I said, I I've been loving learning new things because I love learning new different things about different stuff, you know, cause I, I didn't know any of these things before I started this podcast. Now I've learned a wealth of knowledge, just sitting here talking to other people and then going and exploring different avenues and things like that too. And it's been great. David I Joseph: Yeah, I'm sure we would have had a very different conversation if we'd talked a couple of years ago. Peter: Right. Exactly. No, I agree. A hundred percent. Cause my, my knowledge wouldn't be the where it's at now. My explore, my, my thought process wouldn't been the same thing it is now, you know, and things like that too. So I mean, that's, that's, that's, that's just, you know, like I said, I just love doing this. It's great. Cause every time I hit record, it's like, you get to meet new people and different things everybody's doing and you know, you have, you have 50 years. That's, that's crazy. So most people, they don't even stay most, they don't have 50 years experience. A lot of stuff, you know, that the things you've accomplished over the 50 years. You know, and things like that. You have a book now and everything else like that. So how is the book doing though? Are you getting a lot of good reception from it? David I Joseph: Yes, I've gotten a lot of good reception from my senior colleagues who have found that I've challenged them, but I've also had really good response from people who were just curious about being a therapist or being in therapy. And it's been very gratifying because I simplify the book, but I did make it understandable. And ⁓ that's of the things that Peter: Okay. Yeah. David I Joseph: I've learned from people who have read the book is that did what I wanted to do in terms of making it really accessible, ⁓ just people for whom English is a second language. And yet, is a simplified. Peter: Yeah. David I Joseph: first grade book. Peter: Yeah, I think that's what I think that's approach that people like though from what you're saying a lot of those people that are responding like the fact that you make it digestible for people understand, you know, it's just they can understand it any levels they can pick it up. People are curious. People are, you know, of any any curiosity level, they could come and read this and be like, OK, well, this makes sense, you know, and it cancels some of fear for a lot of people, you know, because a lot of people are scared to do therapy because they just like we do it. David I Joseph: Yes, absolutely. And the reason I like the aphorisms is it condenses an issue with lots of ramifications into something quite clear. For example, somebody's behavior seems irrational because we don't understand their rationale. ⁓ one of the aphorisms in the book, which Peter: Mm-hmm. Yeah. David I Joseph: It says a lot, there's a lot packed into those few words. ⁓ makes my profession understandable ⁓ accessible to anybody. Peter: Yeah, and it explains a lot of things too, because I think a lot of times we're quick to judge people. Like we see that irrationalness, but we don't think about what's causing the irrational behavior. Maybe we're not seeing things from their point of view, you know, for these people, these different situations, you know, to us, it's irrational to them. It's normal, you know, and I think that's, that's our first problem is a lot of us jump to conclusions versus trying to understand what some of these individuals deal with. So we label these, they're crazy or we say, ⁓ go to the David I Joseph: Yes. Peter: You know, like all these people say these nasty comments, we can run them listen, but you know what saying? Like we don't ask questions of these individuals like, hey, listen, what's going on right now? You know what mean? In most crisis situations, a funny story, though, I was on a panel of all these people, you know, and mind you, I have no training. OK, everybody else has some kind of degree in some field. And they all said this. None of them even said the one thing I said, said, so why don't we just ask the person how we can help them? And they all look at me and go, oh, well, this guy had a great point. I'm like, what do mean? any logic thought in it. We're just like why not ask them how we can better help them because I think a lot of times in crisis Situations people are quick to think of what's the most complex way to fix it? But instead of going hey listen, how can I better help you because a lot of times that individual has the answer like hey Listen, what can I do for you? And sometimes it and sometimes you just can't do something from sometimes you just got to let it go through like for me if I start having a freakout session for whatever reason I'm like, just let me go, man. Let me just get it out. I'll feel better once I get it out. Let me just vent it out. I'm good to go. You know, I do that sometimes. Sometimes like I'll get like to that point where my anxiety just gets so bad. I'll just send random, a friend of mine a random message or just I call it unloading my brain. just like send this like five minute long strip of just nonsense and I go, okay, I'm good now. Thanks. just starts laughing. David I Joseph: Well, you know, we all need to be listened to. That's true from the time we're born. I mean, if you think about it, it's pretty self-evident. But a child needs a mother to listen to them, ⁓ to what they need to respond. And we need to talk and be listened to by other human beings throughout our lives. Peter: Mm-hmm. Yeah. David I Joseph: We need them in different ways at different times in our life. But we need it. that being able to have a relationship in which I you really feels listened to, whether it's a friendship or whether it's a professional relationship or a marriage or with your kids, that's something we all need to continue to grow and be productive. Peter: Mm-hmm. You know, David, a funny story, though, the third guest of this season I talked to, that was the topic of our conversation was, listen, we kept repeating it. We kept going, listen, you know what the moral of the story is? Listen. That's what we kept saying the whole thing. We kept making this inside joke about it because she was like, you know, people just don't know how to listen at times. It's like when I call you, I have an issue or I haven't. I want you to listen to what I'm saying. For whatever reason, the art of listening, people just don't know how to listen these days. Everybody's quick to try and save the day instead of just listening to what it is I need to tell you. Like, hey, listen, I got to tell you something. I need you to listen. There's that key part you have to always emphasize in people. Hey, I just need you to listen right now. You know, not react, just listen to what I'm saying. And I think that we've lost that nowadays. Everybody's quick to try and have the quick fix. You know, everybody has that five minute fix to everything. Well, hey, listen, I can fix your problems in five minutes. You know I'm saying? David I Joseph: Well, it's also very technologically driven too. mean, with text messaging and phones computer, so much communication goes on without listening. And ⁓ you, least I like write, but I could send the most meaningful text. Peter: Mm. Yeah, God. David I Joseph: And it's not the same thing as the two of us having a conversation and listening to each other, others' voice and not just one's words. So a real challenge in technological world. Peter: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. And then the fact that we're getting so much information at once and we can only process so much at once, you know, and all the misleading conversations about things and these studies, these are these people saying some things are just like, ⁓ God, please just stop talking. There's there's a gentleman I met that was talking about being depressed and he's like, just go back to your 18 year old self. You'll be fine. I'm like. But what if I hated myself when I was 18? I'm like, what? What kind of advice are you giving people when you're telling them, oh, just go back to your 18 years old self? I'm like, but what if I hated myself at 18? Like, this is bad advice, man. Please. I'm like, I'm thinking please stop giving out advice. David I Joseph: Well, you better not give advice unless you know what you're talking about. Right? Sure. And that's a great example, right? You can't give advice until you really understand the person and what kind of advice you're really, what you're giving advice about. ⁓ Peter: Exactly, like just stop. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's scary, David. It really is. He started saying that. I'm like, oh, God, please stop talking. He's not going to say what I think he's going to say. And he goes, well, go back to your 18-year-old self. You know, won't be depressed anymore. like, oh, God, please stop. Please stop saying things like quit, man. Like, it's scary. you know, and another one, it's these these videos. I don't know if you've ever seen them yet. These videos where the people are like, after you take your life, you know, you'll get X amount of text messages. To me, I'm thinking like. David I Joseph: Right. Peter: God, please stop recording this video right now because the message you're sending to some of these individuals is like you're telling them that, okay, well, if you end up committing suicide, you know, your life goes on without you. It's like, I don't think your positive, your message is having the effect you want it to have. Like you're telling these individuals they're in this state of mind that basically the world's going to go on without them. you know, that's not telling them to stop. You know, I understand what you're attempting to do, but I think the message you're sending isn't too great. then, you know, we know that when you get to a certain extent, they're not even listening anymore. So like if you're right before that part where you're stopped listening, it's like you're going to give them like maybe something in those lists that there is maybe triggering to them. And I just like every time I see those videos, I'm like, I cringe because I'm like, this is just terrible. I'm like, please stop putting these out there. I understand you all think these are helpful, but they're really not. You're not sending the right message. If somebody's been in that mind state a few times. Like you're not telling me anything I want to hear. You're telling me things that are giving me reasons why, okay, if I do this, it won't matter anyways. You know what I mean? David I Joseph: Well, yeah, you've got to be very careful giving advice. And I think what people don't realize about individuals who are suicidal that if they really think that they're going to kill themselves, it's it's, for them, the best solution. And what job as professionals or friends is to help them realize that they may not Peter: Mm-hmm. David I Joseph: They can't envision another solution, but there is another solution that's better. so to recommend that someone actually take his or her own life is, my mind, unethical unless ⁓ someone an incurable illness they're terrible pain. That's a different Peter: Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I could see that being a different option road down there. But these are just, you know, videos that people are putting out there that are just stating these things. And I'm like, hmm. And it just makes you cringe every time you see them. You know, and I'm just like, every time I see those videos, it's just like I just shake my head. like, ⁓ God, please stop. These are not helpful. You know, Yeah. Mm hmm. David I Joseph: Yeah. they're hurtful. They're hurtful, right? You ⁓ at I believe that everything, and this is something that sort of runs throughout my book, is every intervention we make is either helpful or hurtful. There's nothing neutral, right? Particularly in a professional relationship, but even in a friendship, there's nothing neutral. Either you engage the person in ⁓ a Peter: Yeah. David I Joseph: fulfilling, meaningful way or the person feels you're not really interested in. It's painful. Peter: Yeah. No, I agree. think that's a very good point though. You know, cause a lot of times when you, you try to talk to somebody about that subject too, it's, it's a tough conversation. Even grief, like think about grief as a one on one too. That's was an interesting one that I ran into with a lot of people that people got upset because somebody just wasn't ready to have that conversation. Well, like I understand, but you have to also understand from the other perspective that some people are just not equipped to handle the conversation of grief. because a lot of people feel like they don't know what to say in those situations. A lot of times you can't really say much. Like you could say 10,000 other things. It's just not going to change the situation. And unfortunately, this individual is no longer here. You know, like, like if you say something wrong, you're going to upset somebody. And I think that's somebody, a lot of people's biggest fear is like, they don't want to upset you further. But at the same time, lot of times saying nothing is even worse though, because then they feel like you're not listening to me, you know, cause it's like a double edged sword almost. You're like, you're, you're stuck in between these. the rock and the hard places a lot of people like to say, you know what mean? Because if you do say something, it could go good or bad. If you don't say nothing, it'll go good or bad. always hard when it comes to those subjects, you know, and stuff like that too. David I Joseph: No, it's very difficult. mean, it takes courage to be a patient in therapy because you need to make yourself vulnerable. it takes courage to listen because you don't know what it's going to stir up in you. And someone's really hurting and you want to respond helpfully and you're listening, ⁓ it's not easy to know how you can respond that will be helpful. ⁓ And people Peter: Mm-hmm. Yeah. David I Joseph: avoid listening because it makes them too uncomfortable. Peter: Yeah, definitely. Definitely for the subjects of grief, especially I know that there was something that happened recently where somebody got upset because another person wasn't listening. said, but I think you need to understand the individuals you're going to. Maybe they're not ready for that conversation. You know, you can't be mad at them because they're not ready to listen to it. They've rather they avoided the conversation because they knew they weren't ready for it. You know, and then somebody else got mad. It's just it's like, you know, people just I think people just seem to be a little more understanding that. Some people are just not ready for that conversation. Those people by avoiding that conversation, maybe that's what they're trying to do is like, Hey, listen, I'm not ready for this. I can't handle the conversation. It'll start something up. They don't want to offend you, but at the same time, they're removing themselves from the situation because they don't want to be a part of something that they know they're not ready to handle. You know, and I, David I Joseph: Well, but it would be less hurtful if they would say to the person who's speaking to them, right? is really stirring too much in me and I want to be hurtful to you. So I think not going to, I shouldn't be to you because it's getting me ⁓ too distraught, too myself. ⁓ And I want respond in a way that you need. And I'm not that person right now. Peter: Who ya? David I Joseph: That'll be painful for the person who's hurting, at least it'll be honest and caring. Peter: Yeah, you know, and I think a lot of people try to take too much account for people's feelings instead of just being honest with them about it. Like you just said, you know, just tell them, hey, you know, I'm not ready to quit. I'd rather be not be the person you talked to about this because it stirs feelings up in me. And then they're worried about the response of the other person getting upset. And it's just like, you know, it's a real sticky situation when comes to those kind of things, because at the end, somebody is going to get are going to be exchanged. But at the same time, at least you were honest with them about it. And we were just like, hey, I'm not ready for this conversation. I'm sorry. know, as much as this is about the pain for this answer may not be what you want to hear, you know, those kinds of things like that. David I Joseph: Yeah, right. Then the other person feels you really are invested in them and you're saying, I'm not the person to talk to about this, but you might know somebody who is. And that's true as a therapist. If somebody comes to see me, Peter: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. David I Joseph: And this is an example that's in the book. If I had a child that was critically ill and in the hospital, and I thought they might die, and a patient came to see me, and they had a child who was critically ill, I would say to them, I'm not the person you should talk to right now, because I've got stuff going on in my life I can't be present in the way you need me to be so let me refer you to my friend Peter whose work I respect because he can be there in the way you need him to be. Peter: Mm-hmm. You know, yeah, that's the advantages of the show too. David has said, can, I, I've had to do that before. It's like, Hey, listen, I can't help you in this subject, but I do know somebody. And I've done that before I've referred him. reached out to somebody like, Hey, listen, I've got a situation. Can you handle this situation? Or do you know somebody better equipped? And that we, did that before. Hey, I got the number for somebody for you. Here you go. And that's the advantages of having the show needs the list of guests I have, you know, it's like, David I Joseph: You Peter: I can go back and ask them that like that. Like, Hey, listen, I got a situation. Do you think you can help? And I'll do exactly like you do. If somebody comes to something I can't handle, I'll reach out to my contact list of people that been on the show and ask one of them, Hey, listen, I know this is an area you're working. Do you know somebody that may be able to better equip to this? Cause I can't help them with this situation. You know what? I'll look for the information, try and help people because that's, that's just the person I am. It's like, I, if I can't help you, because a lot of people do that though, they go, Hey, go talk to Peter. And then they come talk to me and I'm like, Yeah, this is not my area. know, like I've had to tell people that like, Hey, listen, this is, I'm not equipped for this, but let me find you somebody that is, you know, and I go down the road decks of people I've got, like, Hey, listen, I've got somebody for you. Let me reach out to them, see what they're up to and see how the best way to contact them are, you know, and I'll do that too. I'll refer people to other places because a lot of people send people to me because I run a mental podcast. So they're like, ⁓ go talk to Peter. He's better equipped. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Peter's not totally equipped for these kinds of things. Peter may know somebody. Come talk to me, let me know the situation. If I can't help you, I'll be like, hey, listen, I'll be honest with you. These are probably somebody else goes reach out to this person. They can probably help you better than I can because I've done that in several occasions where I've reached out to several guests and asked them that, hey, listen, this is a person more fitted for your area. This is who you need to reach out to and things like that, too. So that's the advantages of this. You know, like if I can't help somebody, I may know somebody that can. David I Joseph: Yeah, well look, if something comes up and you think I'd be the person who would know a resource, I would hope you'd call me. I've retired my practice, but I haven't retired my mind. Peter: ⁓ for sure. Exactly. Listen, David, trust me, you're on that list now. Now that you're sitting here talking to you've become part of the contact list, I'll be reaching out to David. Hey, listen, man, I got a situation. I need some help with this. So David, we're at the part of my interviews where I ask an interesting questions to people, okay? So I have two questions I ask everybody. The first one's kind of a fun one. So my question to you is that if your mental health had a song, what would you say that song would be? This one's a really fun one too, by the way, because a lot of the interesting answers come out of this one. David I Joseph: really funny that you, I'm smiling, ⁓ your listeners can't hear. So it makes me think, I mean, as I told you at the beginning, I'm 85. And I've told my wife what music I want played at my funeral, a range of different songs. in terms of the question you asked about what ⁓ of music or what kind of song about feeling there's ⁓ a... Peter: Mm-hmm. Okay, okay. David I Joseph: ⁓ died named Barbara Cook, and she sang marvelous American songs and one of them is by Irving Berlin. It's called Sing a Song with Me and it's ⁓ about being And it's one of the songs, along with some sad mournful songs that I would like played at my funeral. and I think that came to mind now. Peter: Mm-hmm. David I Joseph: because it has that degree of joy and yet it doesn't deny the unhappiness that each of us lives with. That's what makes joy so meaningful is when it doesn't come. the price of denying the ways in which there's a lot of pain in our lives. So if anybody who wants to hear a great singer, Barbara Cook is one of my favorites. Peter: I love it. Yeah, that's so I like that though. That's an interesting one too. Like I said, it's always a fun question because the answers you get from people because they're always like, damn, that's a great question. And then they have to think about it for a minute and then they're like, okay, well here you go. And then it's always something always interesting. So David, before we wrap up, I have one more question for you. The reason I started this whole podcast is that if you could break the stigma about mental health. Now, when I asked you this question, David I Joseph: Great question. Peter: ⁓ It could be anything that you hear people say on regular basis that you just want people to stop believing. What would you say that one thing would be? David I Joseph: I want to make sure I understand the question. Peter: The question is that what stigma about mental health would you like to break? you think anything that you hear on a daily basis or something you've heard people constantly say that you just want people to stop believing? In your 50 years, you have to, there's something out there you've had to be hearing that you can't stand people say, what would you say that one thing would be? David I Joseph: I would say that shame... is a cruel prisoner, prison. Shame is a prison. each of us has to wrestle with and that if we're not careful we can imprison ourselves out of shame and that that will keep us from coming to share with others, someone else, and asking someone else to listen, to really be present and to listen even if we have things to talk about that we should be ashamed of. they're not going to judge us as horrible people, that they're going to really try to understand what we're wrestling with. And so the stigma of mental health about going to get treatment is that feel they're going to be judged because of ways in which they have acted or things they've done or not done that they feel ashamed about or guilty about. And so... Don't let yourself be imprisoned by shame or guilt. Find someone who Let them earn your trust and then let them come to know you so that you don't have to be tortured by these terribly painful feelings and the thoughts that trigger them. Peter: Definitely. David, thank you so much for coming to hang out with me today, man. I had a great time. I appreciate you being here. Before I close out this episode, do you want to let everybody know what's the best way to reach you where they can find your book? David I Joseph: They can find my book, ⁓ any bookstore, ⁓ if you ask them. It's published by Mission Point Press. It's called Listening for a Lifetime, the Artful Science of Psychotherapy. any bookstore can order it. You can also get it from Amazon, and Amazon has the e-book. I've it in a way that's not a lot of money, because I'd like people ⁓ who interested to be able to read it. And I love to... hear from them ⁓ they do. Peter: Definitely, definitely. Well, David, thank you so much again for coming to hang out with me today. Before we close out, do you have any inspirational words you'd like to say to anybody before we leave? David I Joseph: Yes, that you can grow throughout your life that problems that seem insoluble to you now, if you can find the right person to talk with, you'll create solutions. They won't find them for you, but you will find different solutions to the things you're wrestling with. You've already found some solutions. You may well need help finding a better solution. And the other is something we said back sometimes we do things that seem irrational to us, ⁓ that's because we don't understand our own rationale. That's just part of being human and not everything that motivates us is conscious. So don't isolate yourself. Make a relationship ⁓ ⁓ with someone else that helps one grow and develop throughout one's life. Peter: love it. Thank you so much, David. I appreciate you being here, man. Thanks for coming to hang out with me. David I Joseph: ⁓ listen, thank you. It's been really fun. I've enjoyed our conversation. I hope your listeners do too. Peter: enjoyed it too, man. had a great time. You listen, you're welcome to come back anytime you want and hang out with us. ⁓ had a great time. If you end up publishing another book in the next couple of years, hey, Littleton, hit me up. I'm definitely down. I'd love to have you come back and hang out with us. David I Joseph: I will, I'll let you know, thinking of writing another one as I said, I haven't retired my mind, I'm just not seeing, clinical work anymore. Peter: Okay, listen, that sounds awesome. With that being said, guys, we're gonna wrap up this episode of Pete First Anxiety. You guys don't refine me on Pete First Anxiety. I'm on X, I'll be down to TikTok. I'm on Spotify, all the way down to Pandora Radio. And as I always say, it costs nothing absolutely not to be kind to somebody. One kind act you can do can save someone's life or hell, you can make their day. I'm Pete First Anxiety saying, was saying, don't ask how your day is today. Say, hey, how's your mental health?