Latest / The Touch of a Mustang / What Your Horse Needs Before Better Performance with Ashley Dudas | Episode 46

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What Your Horse Needs Before Better Performance with Ashley Dudas | Episode 46 · The Touch of a Mustang

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  And for so many people, they, they don't realize that every
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  moment we're with our horses, we are either building our
• 0:05
  relationship and partnership and understanding or we're doing the
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  opposite. And most people like are just
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  unaware of how horses communicate and are unaware of
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  the horse actually trying, trying to voice their opinions,
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  trying to voice their concerns. And most people, I would say
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  they take it as disobedience or take it as.
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  Misbehavior. Misbehaving or they're quirky
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  and it's like, no, your horse is trying to tell you something.
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  And I, I feel personally, if, if people had a very basic
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  understanding of equine behavior and psychology, the horse world
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  would be a very different place. There'd be a lot of a lot more
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  happier horses. There'd be a lot more happier
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  riders and humans. There are healers on this planet
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  with the power to soften the suffering of mankind if they
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  have remained in the recesses of the world, abused, discarded and
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  labeled as trash. This is the touch of a Mustang.
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  I am your host, Shalise Clough, and I'm here to tell the story
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  of wild horses, Mustangs, and the humans who are discovering
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  and sharing their gifts while working to protect their
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  well-being and preserve their spirit so this divine power
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  won't be lost. Join us on this quest with the
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  Wild Mustang. Ashley, thanks so much for being
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  on the podcast. It's great to have you here and
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  I'm excited to talk about your journey with horsemanship and
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  Mustangs. Awesome, thanks for having me.
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  Why don't you tell us how you got into horses and then
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  Mustangs, and then I'd love to also talk about some of the work
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  you do helping others with their horses.
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  Cool. So how I got into horses was I
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  think I came out of the womb screaming horse.
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  I've been obsessed with horses since the, I think the second I
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  realized what they were. I didn't come from a horsey
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  family though. So I'm the only horse crazy
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  person in my entire family. I think I'm the I'm the black
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  sheep of the family for sure. There's no other horsey people.
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  Nobody else has dedicated their lives feeding no animals.
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  Yeah, no. One else, like they love it for
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  me, but they're very supportive. But it's not, it's not their
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  thing. I didn't I didn't come from a
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  ranching family or a full family of equestrians.
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  Now it's it's just. Me.
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  I mean, that's awesome that you made it happen.
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  And thank you. It wasn't easy, but I think like
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  just obsessed with them since the moment I found out what they
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  were. Every it's it's kind of cute.
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  Every birthday I'd wish for a horse.
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  Every Christmas I'd be praying for a horse.
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  Like all of like up until I think I was 8 years old and my
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  parents were like, oh, OK, she's still obsessed.
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  It's not continuing to be a phase.
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  And then my mom had a really good no.
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  Like if you have the horse bug, you have the horse bug.
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  And my mother had a really good friend who I now consider more
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  like an aunt. And she had a horse.
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  And while I think around 5 years old is when I went and spent
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  time with her and her horse And he was a Mustang, which is kind
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  of interesting. So the first horse I ever really
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  had lots of interactions with like from age 5 to 8 years old
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  was a Mustang name Maverick. And he was lovely.
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  He was a, a great horse to learn on.
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  Like as a itty bitty little kid. He was very safe and very well
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  developed and well trained to like take care of a teeny tiny
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  child. And then so I become eight years
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  old, he then passes away. And then my parents are like,
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  OK, this is not just a, a phase. She is obsessed.
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  That's when they started looking for horses for me.
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  And then my first horse, Sam, he was a quarter horse.
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  And I like again, he was a lovely first horse for a child,
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  very well educated horse, took care of me and like got it.
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  I got into English performance. So I became more of a jumper and
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  loved all of the English performance realm and all of
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  that. Then a horse that came into my
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  life that was more challenging when I was older, so like my
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  late, late teens. And she was the horse that was
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  so misunderstood that she caused me to completely shift my entire
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  approach when it comes to horses.
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  She was everything that I said I never wanted.
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  I said I never won a mare, I never won a Gray horse and I
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  never won an Arabian. And she was a great Arabian
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  mirror. And she, she completely changed
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  my life though. So turns out like she wasn't the
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  crazy Arab that everybody, you know said back in the day.
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  Like a lot of people in the horse world, they think Arabs
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  are lunatics. It's not true.
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  Very intelligent horses. Yeah, they're incredible.
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  But it but everything that I was being told to do was just
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  blowing up this horse and I took hours to catch her, took hours
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  to load her in horse trailer by the like we were showing and
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  jumping. And by the end of our classes,
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  we were still winning. But by the end of our classes,
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  like my hands felt so raw and in pain for holding her back all
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  the time and her mouth would be bleeding.
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  And it's like, this is this is not what I signed up for.
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  Like this horse hates me. I want to get out of horses.
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  And then my mother had been diligently researching other
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  ways to be around horses and looking for other, other
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  trainers, other like teaching modalities.
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  And that's when I wanted to give up at that point in time.
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  But that's when, I don't know if you're familiar.
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  I I think I can mention their names on here, But that's when
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  Pat and Linda Pirelli were doing big tour stops around the United
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  States. And this was back in 2014, I
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  think. Yeah, 2013 or 2014.
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  And I'm thinking, I'm like, OK, what's this cowboy going to show
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  me what to do, you know? And she's like, let's go, Go to
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  this tour stop and see if they can help.
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  And if you still want to get out of horses, we'll make that
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  decision. So I went to the tour stop and
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  saw Linda, who I still consider one of my mentors, jump bareback
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  and bridaless on her warm blood and jumped over a picnic table.
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  And I'm like, sold. Yeah.
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  So maybe I can learn these things because there they are
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  doing these beautiful things with horses with no lines
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  attached at liberty. And these horses are choosing to
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  stay with them, the riding bareback and bridalists.
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  And these are things that I only dreamed of.
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  I never thought, like, you could actually get a horse to want to
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  be with you so badly. Like, it was powerful.
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  It it it changed me seeing that. And so then I went through their
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  home study program, that same mare who everyone thought was
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  crazy and dangerous flying a kite.
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  That's like flying 800 LB kite at the end of your lead rope.
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  Yeah. And like, spooking at
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  everything. Like the like everyone said this
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  mirror was insane. Well, turns out she was just
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  very sensitive and I just kept terrifying her all the time.
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  And when I learned that I was the problem, not the horse, like
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  life completely changed and that saved.
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  And that horse who was deemed crazy is I was able to to do
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  lots of great demonstrations with her.
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  I did lots of bareback and bridalist demos with her.
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  I did one of my coolest trailer loading demos where I was
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  actually standing on top of the trailer and loaded her in.
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  And then she was also able to be used for as a hypotherapy horse
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  for children who have autism. So that same Arabian who was
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  like everyone said she was a lunatic and I should just get
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  rid of her, was just a very sensitive, very intelligent,
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  very, very, very scared horse. And then once I realized what
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  was important to her, I like she wasn't scared anymore.
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  And all of a sudden she was this brave, intelligent being that
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  she always was. But I was then able to bring
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  that out of her then. So that's what brought me into
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  horsemanship. I was one I was a purely
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  professional for 10 years, loved working for the brand, decided
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  in 2020 that I was going to leave and do do my own thing.
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  And how the must a Mustang came back into my life.
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  So his first horse ever in my life was a Mustang.
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  And then how my current main squeeze got into my life, Romeo
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  was I actually wasn't even supposed to have him.
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  I was asked by the Pirelli Foundation to participate in a
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  big fundraiser called the Rehoming for Life Challenge.
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  And what they were doing is have you, have you heard of the Road
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  to the Horse? Yeah, OK.
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  So it's like it's a three day cult starting event, but they
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  wanted to do a year long event where 10 instructors from around
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  the country were picked to then develop these hand picked horses
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  that were coming out of rescue situations instead of really
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  high dollar breeding programs. And the goal was to show that
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  there are there can be amazing horses and rescue situations out
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  of no fault of their own. And you know, rescue horses are
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  not throwaway horses and be able to showcase like what a solid
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  education and a solid foundation put into a horse, how
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  spectacular they can be, even if they don't have the phenomenal
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  breeding behind them. Be breeding like it gets you a
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  little bit, but it doesn't get you a guarantee.
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  Right. There's a there's a lot more
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  into developing a super horse than just their breeding
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  background. It can help for sure, but it's
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  not the only thing. So I get called up and get told
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  that there's this 2 year old stud Colt Mustang fresh off the
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  well no, he wasn't fresh off the Indian Reservation in southern
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  the He was actually rounding up off the Tohono Odom Indian
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  Reservation South of Sonoita, Arizona with a herd of BLM
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  Mustangs. But he him and his mother were
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  not branded so they had Navajo brands and they were rounded up.
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  Not really sure how he got him. And his mother got mixed in with
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  that herd, but then they were sent off to auction and be cut.
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  And he was only two weeks old during the roundup.
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  And his mother had a perfect K on her hip.
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  And he had the brand at less than two weeks old, and it got
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  infected. And it's like anybody who brands
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  A2 week old fall like, I don't. Yeah, I don't.
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  I don't understand that practice whatsoever.
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  And then there's no brand registry when it comes to the
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  the Navajo Nation. So there was no way to try to
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  figure out where this horse or this mare in her fall came from
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  and they just went right into the auction and the horse rescue
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  happened to be there and purchased him and his mother
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  when he was two weeks old. So then they had him for almost
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  2 years and they heart was in the right place but thought it
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  was cute to allow a little foal to rear up and put his hooves on
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  their shoulders. Geez, it's adorable when they're
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  little. It's adorable.
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  When they're when they're giant. Not when they're 1000 lbs.
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  Yeah. And so he started to develop
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  those behaviors and he thought people were his plaything
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  essentially. There wasn't a mean bone in his
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  body, but he was a very much like.
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  Yeah, great toys. Goofy toddler humans are fun and
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  I pushed them around and all of that.
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  So anyhow, so come he's 2 two years old stilly stallion.
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  I get the phone call to ask if I want to take him on as the horse
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  for the fundraiser. So then develop him for a year
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  and then showcase his education and development on social media,
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  YouTube and all of that to where these horses were.
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  Then were to be auctioned off to pre approved homes only as a big
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  fundraiser to just raise awareness for rescue horses.
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  So I meet him and he runs over the owner of the horse rescue
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  that had him and he's just super confident and super silly and
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  pushing on everything and he's handsome like Oh my goodness.
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  Like he looks quite Iberian like, like cuz with Mustangs you
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  we, we don't really know. Well, we know a lot of how they
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  got here, but they can, their breeding can range and differ
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  depending on the area they came from and then the history of how
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  they got there. So he looks very Iberian and
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  then when you see him on my pictures and videos all over
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  social media, he's very handsome.
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  And I think I was the first person to say no to him and set
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  a boundary and he was just like, I like her.
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  And so that he was gelded and I took on his draining and
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  development with every intention of him going to the Rehoming for
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  a Life challenge, which was a cool fundraiser.
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  It was located in Texas and with I think about 10 months in.
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  So it was like 2 months before the big event.
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  I was like, Oh no, I don't know if I can let this guy go.
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  So a little bit more background on me.
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  I had built my career on helping horses that failed out of
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  dressage barns, raining barns, failed out of other performance
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  barns that were deemed untrainable and like blown up
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  dressage horses, blown up barrel horses, like horse horses that
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  unfortunately people failed. And those were the horses that I
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  built my career on. So even my personal horses had a
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  lot of baggage from I'll handling and very, very, I would
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  even say more traditional dressage training.
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  And so I was used to helping the very sensitive, very emotional,
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  very complicated horses that you had to help them like unlearn
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  patterns of behavior that are dangerous or even help them
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  unlearn unhealthy patterns of thought when it came to humans.
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  So then when I was developing and teaching Romeo and starting
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  him, it was so different because he was like this blank canvas,
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  like other than him thinking humans were silly and.
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  Besides rearing on your shoulders.
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  Yeah, besides doing all the those silly things, which was a
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  very easy fix for a young horse. He was such a like, and I don't
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  mean this as a like a negative term at all, but he was, he was
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  so simple compared to the overly complicated emotional horses who
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  needed so much rehab in their mind when it came to being with
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  humans. Like he was never afraid of
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  humans. He was never terrified of us.
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  He never learned to push into people.
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  Like he never, he never learns the he never learned that we
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  were scary. He never, never experienced any
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  of that. And his mind was so malleable
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  and so like he picked up on things so much faster because
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  there was there was no need to dig in and help him unlearn
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  patterns of behavior first before he could understand
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  things. So he was like the one of the
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  easiest horses I've ever started ever.
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  And I was just like, he's so just he like he's all there.
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  Like he's, he's all there all the time, like conscious with
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  you all the time. He's never not there.
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  And to handle that kind of horse, I think, I personally
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  think it's my personal belief that God knew that I needed a
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  steady, chill, relax type of horse for my personal horse
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  because I was helping so many other very troubled horses all
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  the time. So for me to then go home to a
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  more centered guy who was not as like complicated, didn't have
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  the damage that I had to undo. And that really I think saved my
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  heart a lot when it came to be kept like being a professional
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  horseman. And so about two months before
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  the big fundraiser was happening, like I, I need, I
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  need him. I need to keep it so that I
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  ended up adopting him and then the rest is history.
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  So Romeo is now the superstar of our online membership program
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  for horse lovers. He is my main demo horse.
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  He he is my everything. And we, we show horse lovers all
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  over the world that you can develop beautiful partnerships
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  with horses and it doesn't matter what your chosen
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  discipline is, what breed your horse is.
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  And yeah, so that's how Romeo came into my life.
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  It was, it was unexpected because, you know, I wasn't
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  looking for another horse. I had no intention of getting
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  another horse. But after starting him and him
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  being one of the most uncomplicated horses I have ever
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  met was so refreshing to me after helping so many horses
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  that that struggle in like, excuse me, in the lives that
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  humans put them in. Whereas with him, he just kind
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  of came out like, cool, what are we doing?
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  Like what are what are we doing together?
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  This is kind of fun. So that was a huge, huge
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  blessing to me. And another thing, like I said,
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  like he's the easiest horse I've ever started.
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  He's also the bronkiest horse I've ever started.
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  So he very much could have made a career as a, as a bronc for
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  sure, because he he loved, he, he enjoyed bucking.
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  So then to help him with that, I just taught him how to jump.
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  So then he's like, Oh, it's a planned buck.
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  Yeah, it's your energy out another way.
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  That's awesome. That was able to read like
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  change that focus of air time to be, you know, for good, not not
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  evil. But he has been such such an
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  amazing partner to me and such a uncomplicated in all the like
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  most beautiful ways. And I for me, like I put that to
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  like, you know, he, he only had two weeks out in the wild
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  really, and then had close to two years of just being allowed
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  to be a youngster, not really handled all that much other than
• 17:15
  like a few little scary habits that were easy to easy to manage
• 17:18
  for a professional. Like within within a day.
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  He never tried those sort of things again.
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  It was because young horses, their minds are so, so malleable
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  for sure. But he, he has definitely been
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  my steady Eddie in my life with horses.
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  And he is definitely, I think, I think sent from God to keep me
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  OK. Yeah.
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  So you can keep helping the other horses.
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  And I believe that 100% seems like Mustangs are they have a
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  way of finding us. Yeah, and it's funny, like he's
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  not like, cuz I was like I had warm bloods, I had
• 17:51
  thoroughbreds, I had quarter horses, lots of Arabs.
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  And like he was not on my radar for like he's not my type, but
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  his, his mind. No, but his mind and his
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  emotions and his personality and how intelligent he is.
• 18:07
  He's yeah. Oh yeah, he's my type.
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  And he really had such an ideal start to life in a lot of ways
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  by just being able to be a horse for a while.
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  Talk to us a little bit about how you went from just a horse
• 18:20
  Crazy Girl to really going into being a professional in the
• 18:23
  industry. I I always knew I wanted to do
• 18:25
  something with horses. Lots of people are like, oh, why
• 18:28
  don't you become a veterinarian or like that?
• 18:32
  That was mostly the biggest draw for a lot of people.
• 18:34
  Like why don't, why don't you go the veterinary route?
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  And for me, yeah. And like I, I thought about it,
• 18:40
  but the in, but the horse's mind was more interesting to me than
• 18:47
  their body and Physiology, how they thought, how they viewed
• 18:51
  the world, how they, how they learned, how they perceived
• 18:56
  things, how they processed things, their emotions, their
• 18:59
  feelings. Like that was way more
• 19:01
  interesting and, and very, very much more of a focus for me than
• 19:07
  the, than the outside of a horse.
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  So for me, I thought I kind of went more of the route of equine
• 19:12
  psychology and behavior then becoming a veterinarian.
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  So it's like I wanted to specialize on how horses
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  thoughts and learned and processed the world and wanted
• 19:23
  to dive into that more than veterinary medicine.
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  So it's like being a psychologist instead.
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  Yeah, no, I love that instead of.
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  Being an Mt I. Haven't actually heard that
• 19:35
  term, but that's a great one. It's definitely one we.
• 19:37
  Should. Bring into the world of horses.
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  Equine psychologist because like I, I was fascinated with how the
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  how they thought how their brains worked.
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  That was what really captured me and that's when learning about
• 19:51
  more horse behavior and really getting into more like true
• 19:54
  horsemanship as an art form. That's where I like I was, I was
• 19:57
  just so obsessed with how the horse horses brain works.
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  That's I just kept I just kept going and kept learning.
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  I always knew I wanted to be doing something with horses and
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  their mind was what really. Really caused me to dive into it
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  head first into a career. Never looked back.
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  What are some of the changes that occurred from that time
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  where you're showing your Arabian having all these
• 20:21
  problems till now? Like what are some of the values
• 20:24
  and ideas and things like that that really changed within the
• 20:27
  way you worked with horses? Everything changed.
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  I like my entire entire being shifted.
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  I went from blaming the horse for acting like a horse to
• 20:37
  realizing that I was the cause of all the horses negative
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  emotion. I went from taking the horses
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  behavior personally to understanding that like none of
• 20:48
  their behaviors should be taken personally.
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  They don't even have a developed frontal lobe like we do.
• 20:53
  In their mind, they're incapable of plotting against us.
• 20:58
  You know, I became way more empathetic for how a horse
• 21:02
  viewed the world and how they how they can struggle in the
• 21:05
  world that us humans put them in.
• 21:06
  Seeing a horse as a, as a prey animal, as Mother Nature
• 21:10
  intended them to be, and having more of an understanding of like
• 21:14
  when a horse is fearful, they're not just concerned for their
• 21:18
  safety. Like they think they're going to
• 21:20
  die and that is why they react so, so in our minds abruptly or,
• 21:26
  or such extreme ways and us humans will be like, oh, you're
• 21:30
  yeah, like, oh, you're a big great animal.
• 21:32
  It's a piece of paper. It's a plastic bag.
• 21:34
  It's a rustling leaf. And to them it's like it's, it's
• 21:38
  life or death. So when you understand that it's
• 21:41
  very hard to like to take it personal, it's very hard to be
• 21:44
  upset and angry with horses. It just allows you to be more
• 21:48
  present with them and to be able to actually help them through
• 21:51
  these things. So I went from more very, very
• 21:55
  traditional training to then like realizing that horses know
• 22:01
  when you are present with them and then they know when you're
• 22:04
  not. So I think Ray Hunt would say
• 22:06
  like horses know, know when you know and they know when you
• 22:08
  don't know. And I think that's kind of what
• 22:10
  he was referring to is that presence and awareness of how
• 22:13
  how the horse thinks and how the horse perceives the world and
• 22:17
  being in tune with that. Like that, that changed my
• 22:20
  entire life with horses. And, you know, going from like
• 22:25
  just thinking the horse was acting out on purpose to go to
• 22:30
  then realizing the horses is behaving this way because
• 22:33
  they're trying to survive. That's it.
• 22:34
  There's there's no, there's no I'll intense.
• 22:36
  There's no, no, it's yeah. And it's not deeper than that.
• 22:40
  A lot of people want to try to make it deeper than that.
• 22:42
  And it overcomplicates things. And as humans get more emotional
• 22:46
  and the poor ponies get more and more scared and it does, it
• 22:48
  doesn't help anybody. So I very much went like like
• 22:52
  180° completely different, different direction from being a
• 22:56
  more traditional training and riding and competing to more of
• 23:02
  a focus on developing a relationship with this amazing
• 23:05
  sentient being. And also like, say, if we did
• 23:08
  want to still compete, like having a horse that's in the
• 23:11
  arena with you and they love it just as much as you do.
• 23:14
  Instead of it feeling like this constant battle of the wits and
• 23:18
  it's a war between us and our horses and somebody has to win,
• 23:21
  it's like I want me and my horses to both be winners at the
• 23:25
  end of the day. And that way of being with
• 23:27
  horses, just like you know. Yeah, and I think that's a dream
• 23:32
  that a lot of people have to, you know, have your horse on
• 23:34
  board with you wanting to do the things that are so fun for you.
• 23:38
  So really cool that you found a way to do that.
• 23:42
  Tell us a little bit about how that process kind of unfolded
• 23:44
  with your little Gray Arabian. So one of the first things that
• 23:50
  in the home study program with Pearly Natural Horsemanship that
• 23:54
  I went through was they ask you to do this exercise called
• 23:59
  undemanding time. And it's super powerful.
• 24:02
  And it's something that I had never, never even thought of
• 24:04
  because like, I was, you know, I thought we, you know, you catch
• 24:06
  your horse wherever you can. Yeah.
• 24:08
  Throw the saddle. Whenever you do, yeah.
• 24:10
  Kick them to go, pull them to stop, use the reins of turn.
• 24:12
  It's like those are all lies as humans are told in the horse
• 24:15
  industry. It's all, it's all crap.
• 24:16
  And so the the first exercise I asked you to do is on demanding
• 24:20
  time. And that's where you just go and
• 24:22
  have no agenda with your horse. You go and sit out with them for
• 24:25
  a period of time, whether you want to be in the stall or in
• 24:28
  the paddock, wherever your horse is living.
• 24:29
  And it was massively eye opening for me because what had
• 24:34
  happened, because this horse was hard.
• 24:36
  Her name was April Her. This horse was very hard to
• 24:38
  catch. Very skeptical, very terrified
• 24:40
  of things. Yeah.
• 24:41
  And I was then at this point in time, learning about that.
• 24:44
  So the undemanding time exercise, it's like they want
• 24:47
  you. They want to find out like how
• 24:49
  long does it take for your horse to approach you?
• 24:52
  How long does it take the horse to acknowledge you?
• 24:54
  How long does it take the horse to want to come up to you and
• 24:56
  touch you? And like that was kind of the,
• 24:58
  the basis of the, of the, of, of the exercise is just to allow
• 25:02
  the horse to have time to approach you, acknowledge you
• 25:06
  and see what they, what they think of you.
• 25:08
  I sat in my mirror stall for two hours.
• 25:12
  Jeez. Before and like when I when I
• 25:14
  walked in through the gate, like she immediately walked to the
• 25:17
  opposite end of the stall. So I'm like, dagger in the
• 25:19
  heart, right? He walked away like it.
• 25:23
  Hurts up, but it hates. Me, I need, I needed to feel
• 25:26
  that though. I needed to feel that because I
• 25:28
  was now aware of how this horse really thought of me.
• 25:31
  And a lot of people don't want to know how their horses think
• 25:34
  of them. For me, it's like, I want to
• 25:36
  know everything and I want to help people who want to know how
• 25:40
  their horses feel about them. So in this exercise, I I walked
• 25:44
  into the gate. She immediately went to the
• 25:46
  opposite end of the stall and put her nose in the corner and
• 25:49
  just stood there. For two hours, as far away as
• 25:51
  she could. Get and I just as far away as
• 25:54
  she could get. And I just sat there thinking
• 25:56
  like, Oh my God, this horse hates me.
• 25:58
  What have I done? Like I did it now.
• 26:01
  And after two hours, she finally turned and faced me and walk
• 26:04
  walked up to me and wanted to touch me and for me, like I was
• 26:07
  in tears. I was bawling my eyes out
• 26:11
  because at that point I think I was like 615.
• 26:14
  I think it was like 14 or 15 years old when this was going
• 26:16
  on. It's such such a big shift in,
• 26:19
  in life in general, you know, So then to, to recognize that this
• 26:26
  horse, the, the horse is not the problem.
• 26:29
  It's me. And this horse is just scared of
• 26:33
  me and scared of the things that we're doing.
• 26:35
  So then to to have that kind of feedback of when I step into my
• 26:40
  horse's realm, like their, their stall, their, their bedroom,
• 26:43
  their sacred space, and the first thing they do is want to
• 26:47
  leave like that is it's just a. Sign Yeah.
• 26:51
  It's a sign she's trying to tell.
• 26:53
  Yeah. She's trying to tell me you make
• 26:55
  me uncomfortable. Feel safe with you.
• 26:56
  I don't feel comfort with you. I'm gonna go stand over here as
• 26:59
  far away as I can. And.
• 27:02
  And then after two hours of just being there, she was able to
• 27:07
  feel comfortable and safe enough to face me and approach me.
• 27:10
  And after I experienced that, like that was such a, it was an
• 27:15
  eye opener. So then my mind thought, how can
• 27:18
  I help this mayor not ever want to do that again?
• 27:22
  How can I help her with every interaction I have with her?
• 27:25
  How can I help prove to her that I'm not going to eat her?
• 27:28
  How can I help prove to her that I am not going to scare her?
• 27:31
  I'm not going to frighten her. And if she does get frightened,
• 27:35
  I want her to know I'm here to support her and help her instead
• 27:39
  of her thinking that I'm even more of a problem when she gets
• 27:42
  emotional or worried. So with that, just that simple
• 27:46
  exercise of spending undemanding time.
• 27:48
  And I also, I coach my own students to do that to get
• 27:51
  feedback from their horse and seat because it's, it tells you
• 27:54
  like how much the horse wants to be with you, how much the horse
• 27:56
  is interested in you, how comfortable they are, how
• 27:58
  confident they are or how scared they are, how worried they are.
• 28:03
  And. Probably also gets the person
• 28:05
  out of the like I got to go and do something like that is what
• 28:09
  you're doing. You're just observing and being
• 28:11
  and a lot of times we go in thinking I'm going to do XY and
• 28:15
  Z today. And that and that's how you get
• 28:18
  horses that are hard to catch because if you go in with an
• 28:22
  agenda every single time with your horse and you have things
• 28:24
  that you need to do, we have these training things that we
• 28:26
  must, must, must get done. The horse is very good very
• 28:30
  quickly going to associate us with just a ton of pressure.
• 28:33
  And pressure motivates. It's a release that teaches.
• 28:36
  So when with horses, if they're with people, it's all pressure
• 28:40
  and then they finally get a reprieve away from the human
• 28:42
  when they're done with the training, they're going to
• 28:45
  think, I hate being around people.
• 28:46
  They just want to be by. My friends, no wonder they're
• 28:49
  hard to catch. No wonder they're skeptical for
• 28:51
  things. It's like, well, every, if every
• 28:53
  time you do something, you're with your horse, you have an
• 28:55
  agenda and you have like a focus of doing something.
• 28:59
  Why would they want to hang out with us?
• 29:01
  Because when you look at horses in the herd, they spend a
• 29:03
  massive amount of time just sharing space with each other,
• 29:07
  being comfortable with each other.
• 29:09
  So if you don't emulate that in some way and don't help the
• 29:12
  horse want to interact with you, these behavior problems that so
• 29:16
  many people face that for me are very obvious to and very simple
• 29:21
  to fix that people, people are lost because they have no idea
• 29:26
  that they're they're just their expectations are causing their
• 29:30
  horses to be like, I'd rather not.
• 29:33
  And it's not really safe for a lot of us.
• 29:35
  That's kind of what we're taught.
• 29:36
  You know, we're taught like, go in there, get them to do what
• 29:40
  you want. And so if you're not, if you're
• 29:42
  not, don't have those insights into the way that horses really
• 29:45
  are, then yeah, it's kind of this is what we're supposed to
• 29:48
  do. And I don't know why it's not
• 29:49
  working. And for so many people, they
• 29:52
  they don't realize that every moment we're with our horses
• 29:55
  like we are either building our relationship and partnership and
• 29:59
  understanding or we're doing the opposite.
• 30:02
  Because horses are full faculty learners at birth, they pick up
• 30:06
  on patterns and learn 7 to 10 times faster than humans do.
• 30:10
  So for them, everything means something, but nothing means
• 30:14
  nothing. So how we how we approach them,
• 30:16
  how we halter them, how we groom them, how we saddle them, how we
• 30:20
  warm them up, how we are behave around our horses is very
• 30:25
  important to our horses. Now, that's not meant to cause
• 30:28
  people to be like, Oh my gosh, I'm going to do the wrong thing.
• 30:31
  It's more about just being aware of where your mind is and how
• 30:36
  you're interacting with these horses instead of just you see
• 30:39
  it all the time. People just throw halters on and
• 30:41
  then they just drag their horses to the cross ties and brush them
• 30:45
  and then get upset with them when they get when the horse
• 30:48
  gets like cinchy. And because like the horse is
• 30:50
  trying to tell us things all the time.
• 30:53
  And most people like are just unaware of how horses
• 30:57
  communicate and are unaware of the horse actually trying trying
• 31:01
  to voice their opinions, trying to voice their concerns.
• 31:05
  And most people, I would say they take it as disobedience or
• 31:09
  take it as. Misbehavior.
• 31:11
  Misbehaving. Or they're quirky and it's like,
• 31:14
  no, your horse is trying to tell you something.
• 31:17
  And I, I feel personally, if, if people had a very basic
• 31:21
  understanding of equine behavior and psychology, the horse world
• 31:25
  would be a very different place. There'd be a lot of a lot more
• 31:28
  happier horses. There'd be a lot more happier
• 31:30
  riders and humans in general, just having that simple
• 31:34
  knowledge of how the horses see us and how they learn how they
• 31:37
  think. Yeah.
• 31:38
  Talk to us a little bit about that.
• 31:39
  What are some of the most changing concepts that you think
• 31:43
  would really help people like if they could change their mindset
• 31:47
  to have this understanding of the horse?
• 31:49
  What are the top top areas for that?
• 31:52
  Top areas, probably the biggest one is understanding that all
• 31:56
  horses are prey animals. Every single one.
• 32:00
  And the only difference between a horse and a squirrel is about
• 32:04
  1000 lbs. And a lot of people will will
• 32:08
  see that and they'll kind of chuckle at it.
• 32:09
  Like it's true, it's silly to think about like our big
• 32:12
  beautiful horses and the teeny tiny little squirrel, like the
• 32:14
  little squirrel from Ice Age. But that's how their minds are
• 32:18
  set up and that's how Mother Nature has programmed them to
• 32:21
  live and survive. They are programmed to fly from
• 32:24
  fear and then asked questions later.
• 32:27
  They are programmed to move. So that's the biggest one.
• 32:31
  If humans, equestrians, horse lovers understood their horses
• 32:35
  as prey animals and then also understood that we are the polar
• 32:41
  opposite of that. Like we're predators.
• 32:44
  Arguably we're predators. Like arguably horses are the
• 32:47
  most advanced prey animal on Earth and horses are arguably
• 32:52
  the most advanced prey animal on Earth.
• 32:54
  So the fact that the two of us, you can have these beautiful
• 32:57
  relationships is a miracle. But what it really takes is
• 33:02
  first the human must learn what is important to a horse and
• 33:07
  learn to think more like a horse.
• 33:09
  So then you can show up in a way that helps the horse.
• 33:12
  So then the horse can show up for us.
• 33:14
  But we, the humans, have to be the ones to learn that first.
• 33:18
  A horse is not going to take the time to study us and be like,
• 33:20
  OK, this behavior meant this and that behavior meant that they're
• 33:24
  not going to do that. We have to do that.
• 33:26
  We have to think about like, how does this horse see the world?
• 33:29
  How does this, how will this like, how will this influence my
• 33:32
  horse's behavior? And how can I help them?
• 33:34
  And having an awareness of them being a prey animal will help,
• 33:38
  would help so many people. And so many people have like
• 33:41
  don't even realize that or they have a like a, a little bit of
• 33:44
  an understanding, but they don't really think about it at a
• 33:47
  deeper level. And they don't really think
• 33:49
  about like, OK, yes, when a horse is afraid, they are
• 33:54
  worried for their life. So then to make it easier for us
• 33:58
  humans to understand them, I would say put yourself in a
• 34:01
  situation where your life was literally at in jeopardy.
• 34:05
  Yeah, how crazy are you going to behave?
• 34:07
  How crazy are you going to behave?
• 34:08
  Unless so here's that big one, unless you are trained for it.
• 34:12
  Like we have Navy Seals that are trained to handle high pressure
• 34:15
  situations that are very dangerous, right?
• 34:18
  They are trained to handle that. We expect our horses to operate
• 34:23
  like a Navy SEAL with 0 training.
• 34:25
  Yeah. For our horses, like horses in
• 34:28
  the lives of humans, it's such an unnatural thing to them.
• 34:32
  It's, it's very difficult for them.
• 34:35
  So if we do not teach our horses to have these skills, these
• 34:38
  coping mechanisms and the big one to trust us, it's going,
• 34:42
  it's going to end badly or people will just like you see it
• 34:47
  if mediocre results at best, you have horses that can perform,
• 34:51
  but they're not happy. So I think that the biggest
• 34:54
  thing that like any horse lover could do is to learn to
• 34:58
  understand the horse. Yeah, as a horse and the and
• 35:02
  also. Through their eyes how this is
• 35:05
  being perceived by them. And then the second area I would
• 35:09
  I would put there too said that like what are few areas of it.
• 35:11
  The second one is like learning how horses should be living like
• 35:15
  species specific habitats. Horses are not designed to live
• 35:20
  in 12 by 12 stalls. They are not designed to live
• 35:23
  like separated from other horses.
• 35:25
  They are designed to live in a herd.
• 35:27
  They're designed to socialize. They're they're also designed to
• 35:30
  move like up to 20 miles a day. Like that's not galloping 20
• 35:34
  miles a day, but their bodies are meant to move.
• 35:37
  So I've also seen a ton, like all, a lot of like I'll
• 35:42
  behaviors and stable vices, like those are all man made, all of
• 35:48
  them. Like horses do not do those
• 35:50
  behaviors out in the wild and they don't do those behaviors
• 35:52
  when they live in a more natural environment that's conducive to
• 35:55
  how a horse thinks and lives. So understanding a horse as a
• 35:59
  horse, as a prey animal, it would be #1 #2 would be people
• 36:03
  understanding how horses should be living as horses.
• 36:06
  With those two things, we'd have way less injuries.
• 36:09
  We'd have a lot more happy ponies.
• 36:11
  We wouldn't have a there'd be a ton of changes.
• 36:15
  Like people like don't realize you don't have to have thousands
• 36:17
  and thousands of acres to have a horse be happy and healthy and
• 36:22
  like their needs, their needs met.
• 36:24
  It doesn't need to be like they don't need to be living out
• 36:27
  24247. But there are simple things that
• 36:31
  like more traditional boarding facilities can do to help
• 36:34
  emulate horses being like out and about more often.
• 36:40
  So there's, there's lots of simple things that people can do
• 36:42
  that have their horses kept in a more traditional space to help
• 36:47
  the horse cope with living, living there.
• 36:50
  So those those, I think those are probably the two things,
• 36:52
  understanding a horse as a prey animal and then allowing horses
• 36:56
  to live in a way that they're designed to live.
• 37:00
  Yeah, I think you're right. Those eliminate a lot of the
• 37:02
  frustrations we have if we do what we can in those two areas.
• 37:06
  What are some of with your Arabian?
• 37:09
  What? So you took the time to kind of
• 37:12
  spend time with her. What are some other things you
• 37:13
  implemented that really made because she had a pretty drastic
• 37:17
  transformation from, you know, surviving with her to really
• 37:20
  thriving is what it sounds like. What are some other changes you
• 37:23
  made and things you implemented or learned?
• 37:26
  Yeah, so the biggest one was not blaming for her, blaming her for
• 37:29
  being scared, but that was a big one, not blaming her for her
• 37:32
  behavior. Other things were like learning
• 37:35
  to retreat when she was worried instead of thinking that
• 37:39
  flooding the horse is going to cause them to be more
• 37:41
  comfortable and confident. When you push a horse over their
• 37:44
  fear threshold, like a few things happen. 1 you either get
• 37:48
  a big blow up and come apart or the horse shuts down and a lot
• 37:53
  of people in the horse world will view a shutdown horse and
• 37:56
  say, oh, that's a bomb proof horse.
• 37:58
  He's so calm. It's like new that is a bomb
• 38:01
  waiting to go off. Because what happens is people
• 38:05
  flood the horses. They flood horses with all of
• 38:09
  the stimulus and then they they think that they're doing a
• 38:11
  really good thing for the horse because the horse finally stops
• 38:13
  and stands still. If you if you only get the get
• 38:18
  the horse to that space mentally and emotionally.
• 38:21
  We are teaching horses to just hide and tolerate the stimulus
• 38:26
  around them and just shut down instead of what I want horses to
• 38:30
  be is like, oh human, why are you doing these weird things
• 38:33
  around me? That doesn't scare me.
• 38:34
  You're just weird. You have to help a horse get to
• 38:37
  that space mentally. And a lot of people misread a
• 38:42
  shut down horse and think it's a calm, quiet horse.
• 38:46
  And those are the same horses that out of nowhere for no
• 38:50
  reason at all, nothing happened. The horse exploded.
• 38:54
  And it's like that that was building for months and you
• 38:57
  didn't see it. So learning to back off,
• 39:01
  learning to find like a big thing that helped me was
• 39:05
  realizing that I didn't have to flood my like if I if I wanted
• 39:09
  my horse. So I'll give it just an example.
• 39:11
  If I wanted her to be comfortable with like a stock
• 39:14
  whip cracking and her like, OK, that doesn't mean anything.
• 39:17
  It's just a silly noise. You don't start right next to
• 39:20
  the horse cracking the stock whip and say, get deal with it
• 39:23
  right? Like you help them.
• 39:26
  You find something that might make a similar noise but might
• 39:29
  be less noisy. And you make the noise while
• 39:33
  you're walking away from your horse and allow her to follow
• 39:37
  you when you're making that silly ruckus.
• 39:39
  Because for horses, it's very hard to be terrified of
• 39:42
  something that is retreating away.
• 39:45
  So like learning how to help a horse like understand the life
• 39:50
  in Humansville and understanding that you can do things in
• 39:54
  stages. It doesn't need to be like this
• 39:57
  big emotional come apart. Helping a horse understand
• 40:00
  something you can have the big goal of OK, I want my horse OK
• 40:05
  with the tarp or OK with the stock whip making noise or even
• 40:09
  gunfire. But you don't start there.
• 40:11
  You start with teeny tiny little steps like.
• 40:15
  Understanding that the process of developing a very confident
• 40:19
  horse does not look like the end result, but people try to go to
• 40:24
  the end result thinking like that's how I'm going to teach my
• 40:27
  horse. It's like that's like all those
• 40:29
  beautiful spectacular things that people see.
• 40:31
  Like that's like the icing on the cake.
• 40:34
  That's not how you start. That's not how you start.
• 40:36
  So that was probably a biggest one of the bigger things I
• 40:39
  realized with my training and shifting of my principles when
• 40:43
  it came to training and developing horses was like
• 40:46
  understanding like there are teeny tiny.
• 40:48
  There are little steps that you can take to help the horse feel
• 40:51
  successful very quickly. And then also what I've learned
• 40:54
  about like teaching people, because teaching horses and
• 40:57
  teaching people are two, two very different things.
• 41:00
  And like. After people are much more
• 41:01
  complicated. Yes, people are much more
• 41:04
  complicated and like, after teaching for close to two
• 41:07
  decades professionally now, it's when you help a human understand
• 41:13
  that you can do all of these little steps to get to this big
• 41:17
  goal. All of a sudden the human has
• 41:18
  something to do, and then the horse is not terrified anymore.
• 41:21
  Yeah, yeah, because we want to be doing something.
• 41:24
  We're to be feeling like we're making progress.
• 41:27
  Talk some more about mindset. You mentioned that a couple
• 41:30
  times, how a lot of the changes you had were just the thoughts
• 41:33
  you were having, just the way you were looking at it.
• 41:35
  Talk a little bit more about how can we develop a good positive
• 41:39
  mindset to be working with our horses that is going to benefit
• 41:42
  them and ultimately us? It takes practice.
• 41:45
  It takes a lot of practice. It takes a lot of experience.
• 41:48
  Honestly, it takes making mistakes, and that's OK.
• 41:52
  Like a lot, a lot of people think if I, if I make a mistake,
• 41:55
  I'm going to ruin everything. It's like, no, you're just going
• 41:57
  to get feedback. I mean, again, you hear that all
• 41:59
  the time with horses. Like you can't get off if your
• 42:02
  horse is misbehaving. Then they learn that, you know,
• 42:05
  if they misbehave, they can get you off.
• 42:07
  That I think is a a really big myth in the horse world.
• 42:10
  It's like, I don't think they hold on this stuff quite as much
• 42:13
  as we do. Yeah, and it's like you talk to
• 42:15
  any like professional cult starter like cuz I, I started
• 42:19
  horses for the public for years and I still do.
• 42:21
  And I have lost count of how many times like on a first ride
• 42:25
  or first few rides, how many times I will step off and help
• 42:29
  the horse understand something and then step back on.
• 42:31
  There is nothing wrong with that.
• 42:34
  And people think like, oh, you let the horse win.
• 42:36
  It's like, first of all, I choose life like like I don't
• 42:41
  wanna, I don't wanna go through the air.
• 42:43
  And like there are amazing horse developers that can ride through
• 42:47
  emotion, emotions better than some.
• 42:50
  And it's easy for them to continue to help the horse while
• 42:53
  they're riding. That's fine.
• 42:54
  But for me, like I'm gonna step off, help a horse understand it
• 42:58
  again and then step back on and there's nothing, there's nothing
• 43:02
  wrong with that. And that's another thing I'd
• 43:04
  love for people to to get out from this conversation that
• 43:07
  we're having is like, there is no shame at all if you step off
• 43:12
  your horse to fix something to help them or if you step off
• 43:15
  because you feel your emotions. Are going.
• 43:19
  If yeah, if you are not in a good space, the horse is not
• 43:22
  going to be in a good space. Now, there are situations where
• 43:25
  it might be a safety hazard to step off.
• 43:27
  Those are different situations. Like if you're riding on a trail
• 43:30
  and you're on a big switch back, don't step up right like there
• 43:35
  or you're working cattle or there.
• 43:37
  There's there's something going on where stepping off would
• 43:40
  cause you to be in a more dangerous situation.
• 43:42
  We're not talking about those. What we are talking about is
• 43:45
  like just regular everyday situations.
• 43:47
  Maybe your horse Spooks, gets a little on adrenaline.
• 43:50
  There is nothing wrong with stepping off, checking your own
• 43:52
  pulse like calming. Yourself down regulating
• 43:55
  yourself for a minute. Yep.
• 43:57
  And then making sure you can help your horse regulate their
• 44:01
  own emotions at the same time, and that's OK.
• 44:03
  You can do that on the ground and then step back on.
• 44:05
  So yeah, like, I'm glad you mentioned that.
• 44:07
  Like, because it's such a silly thing.
• 44:09
  Like you step off, you let them win.
• 44:11
  It's like, well, first of all, I want my horse to be a winner.
• 44:13
  And we use that language, I think in a lot of things, you
• 44:15
  know, whether it's leading them, you know, you can't do this or
• 44:18
  they have one quote, UN quote. And yeah, I think that's one
• 44:22
  mindset shift that you can really make is we're not in a
• 44:24
  competition here. We're not against each other.
• 44:26
  I think if you really want that relationship with your horse,
• 44:29
  you're wanting to work together, you're wanting to be a team.
• 44:32
  And so even just changing that language and that perspective
• 44:36
  that we have can be a really good mindset shift. 100% like
• 44:40
  changing the way we talk about our horses.
• 44:43
  Like for me, it's like I, I often will say like I, I play
• 44:47
  with horses, I train people, but I play with horses and I work on
• 44:52
  my, yeah, I work on myself. Like the moment, like I want my
• 44:56
  horse to be, be able to do hard things.
• 44:58
  I want my horse to be able to operate at a world class level.
• 45:02
  But that will come with like actually developing a horse who
• 45:08
  enjoys the things that you're doing together.
• 45:10
  And you have to start with that because like the performance
• 45:14
  stuff comes and it gets so much easier when the horse is in it
• 45:17
  with you compared to like managing A terrified prey
• 45:22
  animal. Like the people that are just
• 45:24
  managing the terrified prey animals.
• 45:26
  Like they're not, they're not going to compete as well.
• 45:28
  They're not going to win as well.
• 45:30
  Like they might get things done, but the horse is not going to be
• 45:33
  enjoying themselves. And what I want is that for
• 45:36
  horses and humans to be like enjoying the things that they're
• 45:39
  doing. Together, and probably not being
• 45:41
  human either when you're in that relationship.
• 45:45
  Yeah, so big, like big mindset shifts are like how we, how we
• 45:48
  speak to our horses, how we speak to ourselves matters a
• 45:52
  lot. If we are constantly showing up
• 45:54
  with self doubt and self criticism like our horses, their
• 45:58
  minds are not capable of understanding those very, very
• 46:01
  complex emotions. But if we show up and we're
• 46:04
  constantly in our minds and we're angry at ourselves or
• 46:07
  frustrated with ourselves, all that's going to do is come off
• 46:11
  as pressure to a horse. Yeah, they can definitely see
• 46:14
  that energy that we're bringing in, even though they may not
• 46:17
  understand the thoughts that are behind it.
• 46:20
  They certainly understand when we were going in and just, yeah,
• 46:23
  being frazzled or upset. It doesn't feel good to them at
• 46:27
  all. And so they want to get away
• 46:29
  from it. And that and that is a perfect
• 46:30
  example of like why horses are used for emotional like equine
• 46:34
  assisted psychotherapy. It's like it gets people to be
• 46:37
  more aware of what they're doing and how they feel because you
• 46:41
  have the horse as a mirror right there.
• 46:42
  And for all of us like horse lovers and equestrians who like
• 46:46
  and horsemen who get to be around horse all the time, we, I
• 46:48
  think a lot of us take that for granted, how the horses are
• 46:51
  mirror all the time and can help us emotionally regulate.
• 46:55
  And for me, it's like I, I don't know what I would do if I didn't
• 46:58
  have that. Like I must have lived in my.
• 47:01
  Life, right? You're either going to need a
• 47:04
  horse or a live in therapist. Yeah.
• 47:07
  Yeah, same. Talk a little bit about
• 47:09
  competition and having a relationship with your horse.
• 47:12
  Like can you do both and how do you do both?
• 47:15
  Cause a lot of times it is like we want to accomplish something.
• 47:18
  How do you do that and have a relationship with your horse?
• 47:21
  Yeah. So 100% you can do both.
• 47:24
  There is a misconception and I think, and I don't know if it's
• 47:27
  because like the world and realm of like natural horsemanship
• 47:31
  versus normal or traditional horsemanship came to be.
• 47:35
  I think that is nonsense. I think there is good
• 47:37
  horsemanship and then period, end of discussion.
• 47:41
  So you can compete and develop an amazing relationship with
• 47:46
  your horse. You can do those beautiful
• 47:49
  spectacular things like you can you can go compete and dressage.
• 47:52
  You can go be a Roper, you can go do barrel racing, you can go
• 47:55
  do raining. Like you can do all these fun
• 47:57
  things with your horse and still develop a relationship.
• 48:01
  People think it's either one or the other, and it's not.
• 48:05
  The ones who are winning millions and millions in
• 48:07
  championships after championships after
• 48:09
  championships over again are people who take the time to
• 48:12
  build a relationship with their horses because they like
• 48:15
  competing is easier for them because the horse is in it with
• 48:18
  them. So how you do that is through
• 48:21
  your everyday interactions with your horses.
• 48:24
  You don't sacrifice your relationship for a blue ribbon.
• 48:27
  You don't push the horse over what they're capable of doing
• 48:30
  just for the sake of price money.
• 48:32
  You take care of the horse's needs at all times and then the
• 48:36
  competition is just something that you get to do together.
• 48:40
  So for me, like, cuz I coach a lot of eventers, I coach a lot
• 48:43
  of ropers. I, I coach a lot of people that
• 48:46
  are in the performance realm. And for me, our coaching isn't
• 48:51
  necessarily about like how they come to be, not for like the get
• 48:54
  more skilled on the maneuvers or get more skilled on the tasks
• 48:58
  needed to be done for the competition.
• 49:01
  What I help them do is like, how is get them to think more like
• 49:05
  their horse does, to say it's like, how can I help my horse
• 49:07
  enjoy jumping? How can I help my horse enjoy
• 49:12
  enjoy the slide stop? How can I help my horse enjoy
• 49:15
  the things I'm asking them to do?
• 49:17
  So that's how like that's how you can like really help people
• 49:21
  get in a better, I would say better just mindset when it
• 49:24
  comes to competing. And for me it's like No title,
• 49:28
  no championship, no ribbon, no prize money, no piece of
• 49:31
  equipment is more important than the relationship that I have
• 49:35
  with my horse. And if you keep it like that, if
• 49:38
  your horse has a, like they're in a class and they get scared
• 49:42
  and they get emotional, you're not going to blame the horse.
• 49:43
  Like, oh, OK, no big deal. We got a little scared in that
• 49:46
  class. But I, the human took care of my
• 49:50
  horse. And that goes a heck of a long
• 49:52
  way with our horses. And then it also allows horses
• 49:57
  to like have a longer show career.
• 50:00
  Could you imagine horses that don't get fried, right?
• 50:02
  Like you get horses that don't get fried on being in the arena
• 50:05
  or because they still enjoy being in there.
• 50:08
  So you can 100% be very competitive and have a very
• 50:13
  healthy relationship with your horse, but the way you do it is
• 50:15
  the relationship has to be first even when you are competing.
• 50:19
  Yeah. And I like the way you put that
• 50:21
  because as the human, we are kind of the guide, We are the
• 50:25
  one responsible, we're the one in charge.
• 50:27
  The horse is really just like getting drug along, whatever we
• 50:30
  decide to do in life. So it really is our
• 50:32
  responsibility to be the one that's taking responsibility for
• 50:36
  making the changes that we need, because the horse really doesn't
• 50:38
  even have that capability because of the way life is.
• 50:43
  Yeah, and honestly, they shouldn't have to, you know,
• 50:46
  like they they shouldn't have to, like people will say, like,
• 50:48
  buck up, buttercup. It's like, no, horses are
• 50:52
  perfect until humans show up. So it is our responsibility to
• 50:57
  learn how to behave around them, to learn what's important to
• 51:01
  them. So then it's so then we can help
• 51:03
  them thrive in the lives we put them in.
• 51:07
  Yeah, talk a little bit more about some of the things we can
• 51:11
  do to help our horses kind of enjoy our interactions, their
• 51:14
  interactions with us, whether that's, you know, going on a
• 51:17
  trail ride or, you know, working towards some type of
• 51:20
  competition. The biggest thing to help our
• 51:23
  horses enjoy their time with us is communicating with them in a
• 51:27
  way that they understand. So then there's no surprises.
• 51:30
  Like they, they, they, they know what to expect from us because
• 51:33
  we're communicating with them in a way that they communicate with
• 51:36
  their, with their herd mates. So being consistent in how you
• 51:41
  speak to your horse because like horses don't, they don't
• 51:43
  communicate verbally like we do, right?
• 51:45
  Never. They are very, yeah, right.
• 51:48
  And they can understand a few words, but that's not how they
• 51:50
  communicate. It's they communicate through
• 51:53
  energy, intention, body language, focus like that's how
• 51:57
  horses communicate with each other.
• 51:59
  So if you have a better awareness of how how to do that,
• 52:05
  life can be way more simple with your horse, like going from the
• 52:09
  basic task of catching your horse to performing flying like
• 52:13
  Tempe flying lead changes. If you know how to communicate
• 52:16
  with the horse in a way that they understand, everything can
• 52:19
  go smoothly. And it doesn't mean everything's
• 52:20
  gonna be perfect. Because that's the same thing
• 52:22
  like with our, with our human relationships.
• 52:24
  They take time, they take dedication.
• 52:26
  Like healthy relationships with our spouses, with our friends,
• 52:29
  with our family, with our coworkers.
• 52:31
  It it's like it takes work, but when you do the work, it allows
• 52:38
  us to have these beautiful partnerships.
• 52:41
  And it's the same thing with our horses.
• 52:42
  Yeah. And So what might that look
• 52:44
  like? Say someone has a horse, they
• 52:46
  want a barrel race and they take them out and they're just not.
• 52:48
  It's just not meshing, it's not working.
• 52:51
  What might you tell someone in that position?
• 52:54
  What do they need to do? What changes do they need to
• 52:56
  make? So it depends on what is not
• 52:59
  meshing like what part of it isn't meshing Like is it the
• 53:03
  horse is getting emotional coming off the horse trailer?
• 53:05
  Is the horse emotional just approaching the first barrel?
• 53:08
  Is the horse getting upset at the alleyway and they're
• 53:12
  struggling with that. So it would depend on what
• 53:15
  specific thing is the horse concerned with and what are they
• 53:18
  struggling with. So then when you find the
• 53:21
  specific thing that the horse is struggling with, you then can
• 53:25
  say how can I simulate that at home?
• 53:28
  How can I help my horse feel this similar thing in a
• 53:32
  controlled environment? So then I can help my horse
• 53:35
  build their confidence and build their understanding at home.
• 53:38
  So then when I go and compete, again, it's not a surprise to
• 53:42
  the horse. So a lot of it is just more
• 53:44
  consistency, more prep in a lot of the times.
• 53:48
  Like it's all in the setup. How can you set the horse up for
• 53:52
  success prior to the competition?
• 53:55
  And that is where like that's where champions are made.
• 53:58
  It's all in the setup prior to the actual like goal that
• 54:02
  they're working towards or the event that they're actually at.
• 54:05
  So what that requires, I would say is more self-awareness out
• 54:10
  of us because notice when you said like, OK, say they're
• 54:14
  having a hard time and I'm like, well, what part are they having
• 54:16
  a hard time with? So it's like what really
• 54:18
  specific thing is the horse in human struggling with?
• 54:22
  Also like going, taking a step back and working on the
• 54:25
  foundation of your horse's understanding will solve most of
• 54:30
  those problems because you can help the horse like understand
• 54:34
  that you're there to help them. You are there to guide them.
• 54:37
  You're not there to torture them.
• 54:38
  You're not there to terrify them.
• 54:39
  You are there as a helper and as a leader.
• 54:43
  We have to teach our horses and show our horses and prove to our
• 54:46
  horses that we are their safe space wherever we go.
• 54:51
  So that that it requires a heck of a lot more work out of us.
• 54:54
  Yeah. Compared to the horse.
• 54:56
  Right. Yeah.
• 54:57
  And I love that too, because a lot of times we don't look for
• 55:01
  help or kind of start troubleshooting until something
• 55:04
  bad has happened, until it's gotten to the point where we've
• 55:08
  blown through the threshold for a horse.
• 55:10
  So I do think that's really key to.
• 55:12
  Like. Where is it starting?
• 55:14
  Step back. Where is it starting?
• 55:16
  To the very basics, yeah. And that's when that's usually
• 55:20
  when people find me is they, they went to multiple trainers,
• 55:23
  multiple coaches. The horse has been through
• 55:25
  multiple trainers. They've tried multiple things.
• 55:28
  And then like I tend to be and it, it makes it, it breaks my
• 55:31
  heart a little bit, but I tend to be a lot of people's last
• 55:34
  resort for the horse. When in reality, this should
• 55:38
  have been the first step. And the first step is learning
• 55:41
  how horses communicate, learning how horses think, and then
• 55:46
  creating a language and creating a foundation of understanding
• 55:51
  that both horse and human can understand together.
• 55:54
  And I feel that if people had a more solid foundation and the
• 55:59
  horses had a more, because a lot of times when you see horses
• 56:02
  struggling, the horse is just not educated enough to handle
• 56:06
  what's being presented to them. They have no life skills.
• 56:08
  Nobody's taught them, nobody's shown them.
• 56:10
  Because most people do not know how to teach a horse to have
• 56:15
  these like coping mechanisms and be able to be brave in the world
• 56:18
  that we put them in. But every horse can be taught
• 56:20
  that every human can be taught that everything that I teach
• 56:23
  like it's, it's nothing special. Like this is arcane knowledge
• 56:27
  that I am sharing when it comes to horse training and horse
• 56:30
  development. This has been going on for
• 56:32
  thousands and thousands of years.
• 56:33
  Like Xenophon wrote about it long like very long time ago.
• 56:39
  Yeah, it's not breaking. Somewhere along no.
• 56:42
  Like somewhere along the way as humans I feel lost it or
• 56:47
  competing and money became more important than than the horse.
• 56:52
  Yeah. So yeah, like people just
• 56:54
  learning how to understand their ponies would make make life a
• 56:57
  heck of a lot easier for for everybody.
• 56:59
  Yeah, talk to us a little bit more about like mistakes,
• 57:03
  failures, how we can use those instead of letting them defeat
• 57:07
  us or think we just ruined our horse.
• 57:09
  How can we kind of embrace those and use those for our benefit?
• 57:13
  Yeah, failure is part of success.
• 57:16
  You don't get success without failure.
• 57:18
  And a lot of times people think like if I fail at something, it
• 57:21
  means all these terrible things and it needs to have all this
• 57:24
  negative connotation behind it. It doesn't If if you are
• 57:28
  failing, you're you're trying. So at least you're moving
• 57:31
  forward. And you must fail a ton in order
• 57:35
  to learn how to do things, in order to learn, like to have
• 57:39
  good feel. You know how many rope burns you
• 57:41
  have to get in order for you to learn to be able like, oh, I
• 57:43
  need to open my hand. Yeah.
• 57:45
  And like, if we viewed it as that, it's like failure is just
• 57:49
  part of success. Failure is part of the journey.
• 57:52
  And there is no such thing as perfection.
• 57:54
  Like the focus should be progress with our horses and
• 57:57
  building them up and building ourselves up together as
• 57:59
  partners. So like handling that, it's like
• 58:02
  how you handle failure, like is like how you're gonna handle the
• 58:05
  rest of your life. Like we, like we, we all fail.
• 58:08
  And a lot of people think like, you know, great horse trainers
• 58:11
  and horsemen and phenomenal equestrians.
• 58:13
  Like they don't run into those hard things.
• 58:15
  It's like, yes, I do. And what made them great is that
• 58:18
  they kept going. They picked themselves up, they
• 58:20
  try it again. They didn't, they didn't blame
• 58:22
  the horse. They didn't blame themselves too
• 58:24
  terribly. And they moved move forward
• 58:26
  through it. So like, and I, and I tell my
• 58:29
  students, it's like the only reason I know the things that I
• 58:32
  do, the only reason I am as skilled as I am is because I
• 58:35
  made a ton of mistakes and I failed more, more than most,
• 58:40
  most other people. And continuing to move forward
• 58:44
  through that is what allow allows me to have this career,
• 58:48
  allows me to help horses, allows me to help more people.
• 58:51
  So looking at failure as like that, that's just part of it.
• 58:55
  That's just part of it. And there's nothing wrong bad
• 58:58
  about it. Yeah, expect it and then keep
• 59:00
  going and then and then keep going because it doesn't last
• 59:03
  forever. And that honestly is the the
• 59:06
  best way to continue to make progress is to like fail often
• 59:11
  and keep going. Yeah, and I think that goes
• 59:14
  along too with how you're saying if we understand the horse, part
• 59:18
  of that is understanding like they're not holding stuff
• 59:20
  against us. They're not like us humans
• 59:22
  sometimes are. They're really just observing
• 59:25
  and learning as each new interaction takes place.
• 59:29
  Oh, yeah. And they are so, so forgiving.
• 59:31
  Like, they do not. You're, you're totally right.
• 59:33
  Like they don't hang on to things the way us humans do.
• 59:36
  Like they can Remember Remember things, of course, but they're
• 59:39
  not sitting there dwelling on like, oh, you like you, your
• 59:43
  timing was a little off here. You better about that like, and
• 59:47
  there are some more sensitive horses that will not tolerate
• 59:50
  things, but that doesn't mean they're not forgiving.
• 59:53
  You know, like if, if we like, especially the more sensitive
• 59:56
  horses, it's like they challenge us to be better with our timing.
• 1:00:00
  They challenge us to be better with our field.
• 1:00:01
  They challenge us to be better, better with our focus.
• 1:00:04
  They they, it's like when people have horses that they feel are
• 1:00:07
  challenging to them. It's like that horse was put
• 1:00:10
  into your life to teach you something.
• 1:00:12
  Yeah, 100%. And I think those sensitive
• 1:00:16
  ones, those are the ones that are really easy to communicate
• 1:00:19
  with if you start taking that as communication because they're
• 1:00:22
  very quick to to let you know how they're feeling and what's
• 1:00:26
  going on in their space. Yeah, There are like big lessons
• 1:00:28
  you've learned that before we kind of wrap up that you would
• 1:00:31
  want people to know, like if I could share with people that are
• 1:00:34
  struggling with their horses or new to horsemanship anything
• 1:00:37
  like. That like, like biggest
• 1:00:38
  takeaways I'd, I'd love people to have, honestly, is it true?
• 1:00:42
  It's about the relationship that we have with these amazing
• 1:00:45
  horses. And if we first learned how
• 1:00:48
  horses communicate, how they view the world, how they learn
• 1:00:52
  how, how they view us. If we would just take a moment
• 1:00:57
  to walk in our horses, horseshoes, that would change a
• 1:01:00
  lot of us for the better. And being able to understand a
• 1:01:04
  horse to where it's like it's hard for you to take it
• 1:01:07
  personal. It's hard for you to get upset
• 1:01:09
  or emotional or angry at a horse behaving in a way Mother Nature
• 1:01:14
  intended them to behave. Yeah.
• 1:01:18
  And how did that kind of play out for you with your little
• 1:01:21
  Arabia? And you told us a lot about the
• 1:01:23
  changes that happened with her once you were able to kind of
• 1:01:26
  step back, focus on relationships, kind of see have
• 1:01:29
  a better understanding of why she was reacting.
• 1:01:31
  What did that change like for you internally?
• 1:01:34
  Oh my gosh, I changed as a human.
• 1:01:36
  Like I realized a lot of stuff it wasn't about like it was
• 1:01:40
  never her fault. So then learning that she was
• 1:01:44
  not the problem that I was was, was a really big like relief
• 1:01:51
  because it's like, I can change. Like when, when you realize
• 1:01:55
  like, oh, OK, I'm the problem. OK, I can do something about
• 1:01:57
  this. I can, I can be empowered and
• 1:01:59
  change behaviors. I can learn skills.
• 1:02:02
  It is within my control to change instead of feeling
• 1:02:05
  powerless to my horse's emotions and behaviors and not knowing
• 1:02:09
  how to help. Like once I knew that I'm like,
• 1:02:12
  oh, I am the one causing all of this hullabaloo, all of all of
• 1:02:15
  this big emotional outburst that my horse is having.
• 1:02:19
  I could then like take steps to change things.
• 1:02:22
  And for me, it was very empowering.
• 1:02:24
  And I feel like for, for some, it could be very daunting to
• 1:02:27
  learn like I'm the problem. The thing is like, once you know
• 1:02:31
  that you can do something, you can do something about it.
• 1:02:34
  And that's that's what really changed, changed me was, you
• 1:02:37
  know, going from, you know, a very, very competitive jumper,
• 1:02:41
  very competitive rider to then like still keeping that
• 1:02:44
  competitive edge. But now it's more my I'm
• 1:02:47
  competitive with how fast can I help this horse?
• 1:02:50
  Trust me, How fast can I help this horse feel safe?
• 1:02:53
  How fast can I help this horse wants to do these things with
• 1:02:56
  me. And so that's where my
• 1:02:57
  competition mind shifted to is that instead of winning, it's
• 1:03:01
  like, how can I, can I help this horse feel like a winner very
• 1:03:03
  quickly? Yeah, and I like how you really
• 1:03:06
  put that, that recognizing that it's us puts it within our
• 1:03:12
  control. You know, we might say like,
• 1:03:13
  you're the problem and it is stuff that we need to change.
• 1:03:16
  But if we can look at that, like, it can be hard to take in,
• 1:03:19
  to realize like, oh, shoot, it is me.
• 1:03:21
  You know, I am the one creating this and doing this.
• 1:03:25
  And it's such a lesson for life, too, just that we have control
• 1:03:29
  over ourselves, and the way that we take that and accept that can
• 1:03:35
  really alter our interactions with the world around us and
• 1:03:38
  with our horses. And, you know, a lot of us, like
• 1:03:41
  Will will take the things that our horses are doing and take it
• 1:03:44
  very, very personally instead of it, just like this is just
• 1:03:47
  feedback. Yeah, just information.
• 1:03:49
  Move. It is just information.
• 1:03:51
  And I can move forward with it instead of holding on to it and
• 1:03:55
  taking it, that's saying. Something about who we are as a
• 1:03:59
  person. And yeah, when it's something
• 1:04:01
  that we can, we can change if we want to.
• 1:04:04
  Yes, 100%. And I feel that that that reason
• 1:04:07
  alone, like the people being called out for how they're
• 1:04:11
  behaving, how they're feeling even and like how they're
• 1:04:15
  thinking. Yeah.
• 1:04:16
  It's not for everybody. Like not everyone wants to know
• 1:04:20
  what their horse is thinking of them.
• 1:04:22
  Not everyone wants to do the internal work of becoming more
• 1:04:27
  self aware so then we can show up in a healthier way for our
• 1:04:30
  horses. And I've, I've, I've had to
• 1:04:33
  allow that for some people because like if, if, if you're
• 1:04:36
  not willing to take a deep dive into who you are as a person, so
• 1:04:40
  then you can be the leader for your horse and safe space for
• 1:04:44
  your horse. I'm not the instructor for you.
• 1:04:46
  And I think that's like there there's just people that this
• 1:04:50
  is, it doesn't, it doesn't resonate with them.
• 1:04:52
  They don't, they don't want to know it.
• 1:04:54
  And it's like, well, those are, those are our people.
• 1:04:56
  And that's OK. Yeah.
• 1:04:58
  Can be hard to take it in that like oh you got some work to do.
• 1:05:02
  Got some work to do, but The thing is like when you, when you
• 1:05:04
  tell somebody who is seeking to be better but just doesn't know
• 1:05:08
  how and doesn't, doesn't know that they're the problem and you
• 1:05:12
  and you say it. And for me, it's like as a
• 1:05:14
  clinician and as a professional instructor, it's like I always
• 1:05:17
  delivered news with kindness and with love as much as possible
• 1:05:22
  because that is why I'm calling out people not like there,
• 1:05:26
  there's a lot of instructors that will make people cry.
• 1:05:28
  There's lots of instructors that will belittle them for not
• 1:05:31
  knowing. It's like, well, how are you?
• 1:05:33
  Like, if you don't know, you don't know and you can't be
• 1:05:36
  upset with somebody who doesn't. No, just like we can't be upset
• 1:05:40
  with our horses who don't understand yet.
• 1:05:43
  So it's the same thing like with teaching people.
• 1:05:45
  It's like someone who is seeking to be better for themselves and
• 1:05:49
  their horses and you tell them, hey, it's actually, it's
• 1:05:52
  actually you. And they're like, oh, thank God,
• 1:05:55
  because I I can do something about that.
• 1:05:57
  It's me and, and those are the people that I resonate with and
• 1:06:01
  those are my students cuz they're like they're, they're
• 1:06:03
  looking to be better for their horses, but just no, no one
• 1:06:06
  shows them how a horse perceives them.
• 1:06:09
  And then what a beautiful. Approach.
• 1:06:12
  Yeah, that is because I do think that there is a lot of shame
• 1:06:16
  throwing in the horse industry where?
• 1:06:18
  I got it. Where people do feel like, yeah,
• 1:06:21
  I know I'm still kind of scared of horse people, to be honest.
• 1:06:24
  Yeah, like, 'cause I think of like how many times I bawled my
• 1:06:27
  eyes out for being wrong in front of an instructor, or how
• 1:06:30
  many times I was belittled or how many times, like, and for
• 1:06:33
  me, it's like, why do people pay instructors to make them feel
• 1:06:37
  like garbage? It's like that's not what should
• 1:06:38
  feel. Yeah, I mean, you're going there
• 1:06:40
  to get knowledge, to learn what you don't learn, like you say.
• 1:06:44
  Yeah, and it's different when you yourself have an emotional
• 1:06:47
  reaction because you're OK. I'm processing it.
• 1:06:49
  It's a lot to deal with. That's OK.
• 1:06:51
  That's totally fine. But the instructors that go out
• 1:06:53
  of their way to belittle somebody, make fun of them,
• 1:06:57
  shame them for not knowing, it's like, I don't think they should
• 1:07:01
  have a freaking microphone. Like, I don't think they should
• 1:07:05
  have any. Like they, they have no business
• 1:07:07
  teaching people because they're not actually a teacher.
• 1:07:10
  And that's another thing I've noticed too in the horse world
• 1:07:12
  is like there's amazing horsemen out there, amazing equestrians,
• 1:07:16
  but they're not teachers. They're not great instructors.
• 1:07:19
  They can do great things with their horses, but they're not
• 1:07:21
  great at communicating it to other humans so they can then
• 1:07:26
  understand how to do that. And that's what I pride myself
• 1:07:30
  on is like I, I do like, I try my hardest to be able to explain
• 1:07:35
  things so that eventually my students don't need me.
• 1:07:39
  I want them to just check in with me when they're doing
• 1:07:41
  really cool stuff or something weird pops up that they've never
• 1:07:43
  seen before. But for me, it's like I want to
• 1:07:45
  empower horse people to be able to, to solve their own problems,
• 1:07:49
  to be able to help their horse through things in like be able
• 1:07:53
  to be a partner that the horse needs.
• 1:07:57
  Yeah, that's beautiful. I think a lot of us are, there
• 1:08:00
  is so much criticism within the horse world because we are so
• 1:08:03
  critical of ourselves and we're all kind of, I think hoping,
• 1:08:06
  like I hope I'm doing this, OK. A lot of us, you know, and maybe
• 1:08:11
  don't have that confidence and that understanding because it's
• 1:08:14
  like I'm told to do this thing, but it doesn't really feel good.
• 1:08:18
  And so a lot of that insecurity kind of reflects out to the to
• 1:08:23
  the horse world, I feel like. Oh, yeah.
• 1:08:25
  And I would also like to just piggyback on that, like the that
• 1:08:29
  feeling like, oh, this doesn't feel right.
• 1:08:32
  I would challenge more horse lovers to follow that.
• 1:08:34
  It's like, why doesn't it feel right?
• 1:08:36
  You know, like follow that. Like there's a reason it doesn't
• 1:08:38
  feel right. It's it does it not feel right
• 1:08:40
  because you don't understand what's going on?
• 1:08:42
  Or does it not feel right because it's genuinely
• 1:08:44
  problematic to the horse? And like learning how to
• 1:08:47
  decipher, decipher that is is a journey all all on its own too.
• 1:08:52
  For sure, there's real value to listening to our intuition to
• 1:08:56
  listen to like, you know, this isn't, this doesn't feel like
• 1:08:59
  the way I thought it should. And that's hard to step back
• 1:09:03
  because our world's really noisy.
• 1:09:04
  But if we can step back and be in that quiet space and probably
• 1:09:07
  something you even experience when you're sitting there
• 1:09:10
  waiting for your mayor to come to you, you know, when we can
• 1:09:13
  kind of step back, it gives us a lot of insight if we can go to
• 1:09:17
  that quiet place and start listening instead of like
• 1:09:19
  talking, being loud, doing and. Then I tell, I tell all my
• 1:09:23
  students that like at the end of the day, the horse is going to
• 1:09:27
  tell you what's going to work for them and what's not.
• 1:09:29
  And that's why for me, it's like, I don't hang on to any
• 1:09:32
  specific techniques. I don't hang on to any specific
• 1:09:35
  tack. Like, like I have a very, very,
• 1:09:38
  very strong principles when it comes to teaching and developing
• 1:09:42
  and educating horses and humans, but I have no, there's no real
• 1:09:46
  rules. Because the moment you make a
• 1:09:49
  hard fast rule, like I will never do this or I'll never try
• 1:09:52
  that or I'll never use this, you will meet a horse that requires
• 1:09:56
  you to break that rule to help them.
• 1:09:59
  So it's like if, if we leave it more up to like, the horse will
• 1:10:04
  tell me what's going to help them.
• 1:10:05
  What's not going to help them, the horse will tell you.
• 1:10:08
  And if you leave it to them, it takes a little bit more pressure
• 1:10:12
  off of us as horse lovers to be like, am I doing the right
• 1:10:14
  thing? Is this the right thing or is
• 1:10:15
  that the right? Thing I wasn't supposed to do
• 1:10:17
  that. Yeah.
• 1:10:18
  Was I not supposed to do that? Did I escalate my faces too
• 1:10:21
  quickly? Did I not do enough?
• 1:10:22
  Like the horse is going to tell you?
• 1:10:24
  So then teaching people how to recognize when the horse is
• 1:10:27
  telling them that it's working helps so much.
• 1:10:31
  Yeah. What are some of those signs
• 1:10:34
  that either something is or isn't working that you would
• 1:10:36
  tell people to look for? So horses getting calmer, horses
• 1:10:40
  getting more connected, horses getting it depends on the horse.
• 1:10:43
  Horses getting more motivated. So like with a horse who's more
• 1:10:46
  introverted, who lacks go, if you can help the horse find
• 1:10:49
  forwards like great, you're making progress.
• 1:10:51
  Or you're playing with a horse who's very disinterested and
• 1:10:53
  disconnected, when you finally cause them to connect with you,
• 1:10:57
  great, you're making progress. So again, it leads back to
• 1:11:00
  understanding horse behavior, understanding what they like
• 1:11:04
  their expressions mean, understanding the feedback that
• 1:11:07
  we're giving them. Like that allows people to
• 1:11:10
  interpret the behavior that they're seeing in front of them
• 1:11:13
  to be like, OK, I'm on the right track or I need, I need to back
• 1:11:17
  off a little. Bit that's interesting that's
• 1:11:19
  such a switch because a lot of stuff that we're taught to
• 1:11:22
  traditionally do is like get the horse hyped up as fast as you
• 1:11:25
  can, you know, instead of like no, we're looking for a calm and
• 1:11:30
  and connection between us. So that is a really good switch
• 1:11:33
  to. Instead of focus on the tasks
• 1:11:37
  you're doing, focus on the interactions that are occurring.
• 1:11:41
  Yeah, because the the basic everyday interactions we have
• 1:11:44
  are the stepping stones and building blocks to the more
• 1:11:48
  advanced maneuvers like like to in order to get a really clean
• 1:11:53
  like flying change or a nice pivot on the haunches.
• 1:11:55
  Like you have to have understanding and good feel for
• 1:11:58
  your horse to be able to do that.
• 1:12:00
  And a horse has a smile on his face while he's doing it instead
• 1:12:03
  of dreading it or feeling like you're trapping them or forcing
• 1:12:05
  them. It's like it should feel like a
• 1:12:07
  dance together. And there are there are moments
• 1:12:10
  in time where like think of yourself if you were learning a
• 1:12:13
  new dance, like sometimes we have two left feet, we're going
• 1:12:15
  to be uncoordinated and it's going to be like a little sticky
• 1:12:17
  or a little weird when you're in those sticky, messy parts.
• 1:12:21
  That doesn't necessarily anything wrong is happening.
• 1:12:24
  And to help people understand that the better they understand
• 1:12:27
  horse behavior, the better they'll be able to navigate
• 1:12:30
  those messy parts or the the parts where the horse is
• 1:12:33
  struggling or the human is struggling.
• 1:12:35
  If you understand how your horses, you understand your
• 1:12:38
  horses behavior through those things, it becomes less
• 1:12:41
  stressful because you're like, oh, OK, I know how to help my
• 1:12:43
  pony. They're they're just worried
• 1:12:44
  about this thing. That's how I can help them or I
• 1:12:46
  need to back off or I need to ask for more.
• 1:12:49
  But all of that is, all of that is only possible when the human
• 1:12:54
  has more of an understanding of the horse.
• 1:12:56
  Yeah, so tell us where people can find you to be able to work
• 1:13:00
  with you, take advantage of your knowledge and information,
• 1:13:03
  support you, follow you. Yeah, so if people want to learn
• 1:13:07
  from me directly, they can go to our website
• 1:13:10
  itsthesavvyequestrian.com and it's an online membership for
• 1:13:15
  horse lovers where you get access to me as your instructor.
• 1:13:19
  We've created it to be as close as in person instruction as
• 1:13:23
  possible. So if somebody's looking for
• 1:13:25
  like a supportive community, looking for like video examples
• 1:13:30
  of playing and helping more challenging difficult horses,
• 1:13:34
  untamed horses, untrained horses.
• 1:13:36
  There's a lot of Mustangs in there too, in our, in our video
• 1:13:39
  footage and to help force lovers because we we believe in like I
• 1:13:42
  want to share the stuff that could be hard for some people to
• 1:13:46
  watch now, not hard for people like abusive, but more like
• 1:13:50
  you're going to watch an emotional horse, figure out a
• 1:13:53
  puzzle and come to the other side of that.
• 1:13:56
  Because a lot of trainers don't show that.
• 1:13:57
  They show, they show everything with a finished horse.
• 1:14:00
  Right. It's like a nice, pretty
• 1:14:01
  finished product. Awesome.
• 1:14:03
  And it's, yeah, so and we show, we show the stages of
• 1:14:06
  development for a horse. So that's a great, great space
• 1:14:09
  for people to get help and support is the membership.
• 1:14:12
  I also do a one-on-one remote mentorship where people can send
• 1:14:18
  in videos to me and I give them critiques and help them like
• 1:14:21
  create lesson plans with their horse.
• 1:14:23
  And they, they talk to me every single week.
• 1:14:25
  And then we have a mastermind of a like minded horsemen that meet
• 1:14:28
  every single week. Because for me, like my
• 1:14:31
  horsemanship journey at times felt very, very lonely because I
• 1:14:35
  didn't have other people that were going through the same
• 1:14:37
  thing. Like all of my horsey friends
• 1:14:38
  and that I had at the time were very competitive and they were
• 1:14:41
  showing and they weren't focusing on the relationship
• 1:14:43
  with their horses. And I was a weird outlier who
• 1:14:46
  wanted to still compete, but I wanted my pony to like me.
• 1:14:49
  So it was very, very lonely. So having a spot, a community
• 1:14:53
  where you can talk about horsemanship, talk about equine
• 1:14:56
  behavior, and not be looked at like you're a lunatic, that's
• 1:14:59
  really nice. I also travel all over the
• 1:15:02
  country for clinics and workshops and in person
• 1:15:05
  training. We are located in Ennis, Mt, so
• 1:15:08
  that's home base now. And we're going to be opening up
• 1:15:11
  a study center here for horse lovers to come and spend time
• 1:15:15
  with me, have clinics here and like week long horsemanship
• 1:15:19
  retreats and all of that. So probably our website is the
• 1:15:22
  best place to to see us is the savvyequestrian.com.
• 1:15:26
  And then you could like I'm on Instagram.
• 1:15:27
  We have a YouTube channel that has really cool videos that are
• 1:15:30
  helpful for horse lovers. We're also on Facebook, Twitter
• 1:15:35
  X and all of the things. Everywhere.
• 1:15:39
  Yeah. Perfect.
• 1:15:40
  Well, thank you so much for being here.
• 1:15:42
  I love the work you do. It's great to have other voices
• 1:15:45
  out there that are like saying it's OK to want a relationship
• 1:15:48
  with your horse. You can have a relationship and
• 1:15:51
  you can accomplish really fun, exciting things with your horse.
• 1:15:55
  It's great to have, you know, people out there who are
• 1:15:58
  speaking when it's like, I don't really feel great about the way
• 1:16:00
  that I was taught that are showing you another way that's
• 1:16:03
  also effective and successful. And so I really appreciate that
• 1:16:08
  you're putting your voice out there and you're offering these
• 1:16:11
  opportunities to people. I think you're a great resource
• 1:16:13
  for people to lean on and I don't think there can be enough
• 1:16:18
  said for like having a good mentor that can guide you in a
• 1:16:21
  way that you feel good about. That was a huge thing for me is
• 1:16:24
  like, I'd see all these things and I'm like, I don't feel great
• 1:16:26
  about doing it that way. So when I found someone else
• 1:16:29
  that was like, you don't have to like that was huge for me.
• 1:16:32
  So you. Don't have to make your.
• 1:16:34
  Available, right? Yeah.
• 1:16:37
  You can, you can develop real partnerships to where it feels
• 1:16:40
  like you guys are dancing. And my goal for my students is
• 1:16:43
  like, you don't know where you end and your horse begins and
• 1:16:47
  you're just one beautiful, like connected being together and
• 1:16:51
  like true harmony. That's the goal.
• 1:16:53
  And that's the goal with like regardless of your discipline,
• 1:16:56
  regardless if you have competition goals, true harmony
• 1:17:00
  with these amazing sentient beings is the goal.
• 1:17:03
  And then that's. Yeah, and what an incredible
• 1:17:07
  experience. And like you say, there's going
• 1:17:08
  to be sticky spots along the way.
• 1:17:10
  It's not an easy, smooth journey, but it's one that has a
• 1:17:14
  really, really cool pay off if you are willing to do the work
• 1:17:18
  to get there. So that's incredible.
• 1:17:21
  Well, thank you so much for being here.
• 1:17:23
  Thank you for joining us and learning about horses that heal
• 1:17:26
  and the humans who help them. We hope you'll continue with us
• 1:17:29
  on this journey. We'd love for you to subscribe
• 1:17:32
  on your favorite platform and follow the touch of a Mustang on
• 1:17:35
  any of the major social media outlets.
• 1:17:37
  Please share with your friends anyone who loves horses or
• 1:17:40
  anyone who might be struggling and could benefit from this
• 1:17:43
  message. If you have felt the healing
• 1:17:45
  power of horses or help them in their divinely appointed
• 1:17:49
  mission, please reach out. We want to hear your story.
• 1:17:52
  As we say goodbye, always remember that the horse is
• 1:17:55
  always there to help you heal.