Latest / Karl and Crew / Spiritual Gifts Are for Today with Dr. Craig Keener & Understanding Protestant Evangelical Identity with Dr. Brian Tucker

Transcript

Spiritual Gifts Are for Today with Dr. Craig Keener & Understanding Protestant Evangelical Identity with Dr. Brian Tucker · Karl and Crew

• 0:00
  S1: Broadcasting from Chicago, across North America and beyond. It's Carl
• 0:06
  S1: and crew. Come as you are an experienced guide, overcome
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  S1: what seems impossible and live as you never imagined delivering
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  S1: the truth daily.
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  S2: If it were possible to have every worldly gain available
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  S2: and you're forfeiting your soul, there's no amount of gain
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  S2: that would make it worth it.
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  S3: Our own way never ever works. Because it's apart from
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  S3: the life source, which is God.
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  S4: For me, growing up, love was always conditional and can
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  S4: be taken from you. Christ's love can't. And he went
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  S4: to the cross with my mind and my heart that night.
• 0:44
  S1: Now from the call of Hope Studios, this is Carl
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  S1: and Crew.
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  S5: Big weak man. Welcome aboard and so glad so many
• 0:52
  S5: of you are grabbing these links. What a cool thing.
• 0:54
  S5: And by the way, one of the cool added things
• 0:57
  S5: is our very own Ali is going to be emceeing
• 1:01
  S5: everything that's going on in the evening sessions, right?
• 1:04
  S2: Yes. That's correct. Evening sessions Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.
• 1:07
  S5: At Founders Week. And it's this week, guys. This has
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  S5: historically been in the dead of winter. And maybe the
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  S5: best move Mark Jobe made in his presidency was moving
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  S5: this to the fall, at least for those in Chicagoland.
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  S5: Among the many things he did, I want to say this.
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  S5: I'm so grateful for Mark Jobe. He was such a
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  S5: gospel man, and he really got this institute guided back
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  S5: on that. The just the just the basics. Meat and
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  S5: potatoes blocking and tackling of the faith. It's so cool.
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  S5: But he did also move Founders Week to the fall,
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  S5: and we're so grateful for that. And this is going
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  S5: to be an epic week. I want you to give
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  S5: us the lowdown. You, you know, the skinny more than
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  S5: any of us here. Ali.
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  S2: Yeah. We're really excited. It's a I mean, obviously it's
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  S2: the 100th year of, of Moody radio. So that's a
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  S2: big celebration. There's also some alumni classes that are have
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  S2: have big celebrations. So there's so many things happening. Uh,
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  S2: Tony Evans is going to be speaking. Priscilla Shirer is
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  S2: going to be speaking as well. So those are two
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  S2: names you might recognize in addition to names, more local
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  S2: names that you would know as well. So the the
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  S2: lineup is great. We already gave you the key word,
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  S2: but make sure you text founders so that you can
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  S2: get the full schedule. The there's workshops during the day
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  S2: and then the evening sessions. So text founders to 805, five, five, 78,
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  S2: 98 and new this year, the Moody radio open house.
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  S2: So that's, that's an exciting part of it too. I
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  S2: don't know if you mentioned that one.
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  S5: I had not mentioned it. So take it away, sister.
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  S2: Yeah. You're going to have the opportunity if you are
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  S2: down here for Founder's Week on Thursday or Friday, they're
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  S2: going to be allowing a small, small groups of people
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  S2: to actually come and walk through the radio studios. So
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  S2: you're going to get to say hello to us and
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  S2: see part of the broadcast and a special documentary that's
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  S2: going to be playing here in the Chapman Center as well.
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  S2: So lots of great things happening. Hope we get to
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  S2: see you.
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  S5: Yeah. And the good news is for anyone outside of Chicagoland,
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  S5: which is a, the, the lion's share of our listeners,
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  S5: it is going to be live on the web.
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  S2: All of the.
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  S5: Sessions.
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  S2: Are live streamed, and then the evening ones are both
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  S2: live streamed plus on the radio as well.
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  S5: Oh, I did not. Yeah. I'm learning stuff today.
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  S2: So evening.
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  S5: This.
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  S2: Is evening only on radio.
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  S5: So yeah, we want you to get this link because
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  S5: no matter where you are in this world and my
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  S5: friend who's a missionary in Kenya and, and our friends
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  S5: in Turks and Caicos that gave its share and all
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  S5: across the globe, you can tune in for this. It's
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  S5: going to be an epic, epic evening. Epic day sessions.
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  S5: It's really going to be tremendous guys. So text founders
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  S5: to 805, five, five, 78, 98. Text founders to 805 five, five, 5578, 98. Yeah.
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  S5: It's going to be a sweet time, man. Beautiful. Uh,
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  S5: you know, when you come into a Monday morning, one
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  S5: of the things you realize is that there's a lot
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  S5: of things to sort through from the weekend. There's victories,
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  S5: there's challenges. There's a lot of it's kind of Mondays
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  S5: getting back into the groove, even. I've talked to some
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  S5: of my friends that are retired, and they say Monday
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  S5: is definitely a reset time for them. I want to
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  S5: encourage you this morning re reset by saying to God
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  S5: somewhere sometime this morning, you are my Lord. You are
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  S5: my leader. You have supreme authority over every square inch
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  S5: of who and what I am, and I give you
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  S5: my life. Renewed today. His mercies are new and this
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  S5: is an opportunity today for a holy reset and say, God,
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  S5: you are my God. And that's that's worth repeating every day,
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  S5: isn't it?
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  S2: It really is just reminding yourself of who he is
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  S2: and who you are because we are so prone to forgetting.
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  S5: Yeah. And there's a song that's been played here recently
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  S5: that just reminds us of this. Do you believe God
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  S5: is worthy of all that you are? Do you believe that?
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  S5: Do you believe that God is worthy of all praise?
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  S5: Do you believe that God is worthy of adoring, loving,
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  S5: having affection for.
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  S1: You're listening to curl and Crew on Moody Radio.
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  S5: It's Carl and crew and coming up here in a moment.
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  S5: We've got some breaking news. It's a little sketchy right now.
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  S5: I do have a picture in Ukraine, one of our
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  S5: kind of distant partners, FEBC Far East broadcasting has been
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  S5: used mightily in the proclamation of the gospel, and we've
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  S5: heard stories in the past. If you've been with us
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  S5: any length of time at all during this conflict, this war,
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  S5: this evil war, uh, started by Putin, has really decimated
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  S5: lives on both sides of the border. But what's really
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  S5: tragic out of this is that there have been a
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  S5: lot of just random shots at different buildings. And in
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  S5: this case, we've got news of a church that has
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  S5: been destroyed. And I'm looking at one picture. Ali, this
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  S5: is horrific, sister. Yeah. It's it's just hard to take.
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  S5: So we decided, let's get in. The man himself, Ed Cannon,
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  S5: who's the president of Febc. And we're trying to get
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  S5: him on the horn right now. Coming up here in
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  S5: just a minute. Ed cannon giving us an update on
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  S5: what's going on in Ukraine. And here's how it's linked
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  S5: to the broadcast of the gospel. We've got a bunch
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  S5: of these kids who are, and I say, kids, Ali,
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  S5: remember that? I mean, it's been a it's been a.
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  S2: Hearing about them and their commitment to the gospel.
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  S5: Just keeping broadcast going while bombs are going off outside.
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  S5: It's just amazing the courage of the gospel ministers all
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  S5: across Ukraine. And we're going to get an update on
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  S5: this breaking news straight ahead.
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  S1: He was sharing the gospel on the radio and then
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  S1: he got saved. Young thunders in the crew. It's Karl
• 7:10
  S1: and crew on Moody Radio.
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  S5: You are not going to see a lot of this
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  S5: stuff on mainstream, uh, networks, cable channels. But we've got
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  S5: the inside scoop. We've got a real tragic thing that
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  S5: has happened in Ukraine, and we've got Ed Cannon in.
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  S5: He's the president of Febc Far East broadcasters. Ed, what's
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  S5: going on in Ukraine that we need to be made
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  S5: aware of here, my man?
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  S6: Well, obviously, Karl, you know about the church that was
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  S6: destroyed because the photos out there, um, you know, I
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  S6: spoke with you just a couple of weeks ago, and
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  S6: I was telling you, we're evacuating our staff from downtown
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  S6: Kiev because of the increase in the number of explosions
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  S6: and air raid sirens. And, you know, Carl, the sad
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  S6: thing about it is that people just can't sleep at night. Yeah.
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  S6: You know, they're up. They hear the bombs. They're worried
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  S6: about the alarms. And so we're taking 40 some staff
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  S6: to the western side of Ukraine to get them out
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  S6: of the front line. But obviously this church that's blown
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  S6: up is in the East. Uh, we had a radio
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  S6: station in Slovyansk, which is very near Kramatorsk. They're on
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  S6: the eastern border of Ukraine. Our station was blown up
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  S6: about six months ago, and that tower was down. The
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  S6: church that was destroyed in Kramatorsk was a partner of
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  S6: ours in that, uh, we distributed fixed tuned radios to
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  S6: them and their their congregants a long time ago. And
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  S6: so that way those radios were fixed tuned FEBC uh,
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  S6: we had the pastor on as a guest many times
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  S6: and there were just really good friends of ours. So
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  S6: don't know the update on exactly what's happened at the church.
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  S6: We haven't heard any reports on injuries, But of course
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  S6: my fear, Carl, is. It happened on Sunday morning and
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  S6: it is a church. So put two and two together
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  S6: and that's what we're concerned about.
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  S2: At canon with us right now. President and CEO of
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  S2: Far East Broadcasting Company. Talk a little bit about that.
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  S2: You mentioned evacuating your staff. Talk about the work that
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  S2: is happening in Ukraine. The. Are you still able to
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  S2: broadcast at all?
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  S6: Yeah, well, actually, we have nine FM stations, Ali, a
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  S6: very large one in Kiev, which covers a huge percent
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  S6: of the population. And people are listening on FM radio.
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  S6: But the largest number of responses we get come through
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  S6: our social media. So we have, you know, half a
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  S6: million people a day responding to these programs. Wow. Because
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  S6: we were getting so many responses. You know, we set
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  S6: up a crew of counselors, uh, ladies and gentlemen, who
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  S6: were trained in Christian counseling, and they're taking these phone
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  S6: calls from the people all across Ukraine. You know, I
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  S6: lost my husband in the war. My son's been drafted.
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  S6: I haven't heard from him. I lost my job. And
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  S6: it's just horrific pain that the people are suffering. But
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  S6: as a result, you know, they're they're more interested in
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  S6: turning their faith toward Christ and toward God. Yeah. And
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  S6: so we see a in the midst of this horrible darkness,
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  S6: we see a silver lining in that many, many, many
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  S6: Ukrainians are placing their faith in Christ.
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  S5: And I can hear it in your voice this morning, man,
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  S5: there's a deep passion boiling here for helping and keeping
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  S5: the gospel going. And to hear that kind of response
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  S5: is overwhelming. Doctor Victor Akirov, I want to thank I
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  S5: think we had him in. What's his relationship with Febc?
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  S6: Director of. He's the director of Febc Eurasia. And we
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  S6: have we have about 40 staff there in um, in
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  S6: Ukraine doing broadcasting. And as you said earlier, they're mostly
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  S6: young people. They're brave young broadcasters doing these social media
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  S6: broadcasts from train stations, from bomb shelters. Three of our
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  S6: staff have been drafted into the Army. Carl. And, you know,
• 10:51
  S6: they're serving as chaplains in the Army, but they're praying
• 10:55
  S6: with people on the front line. We're doing live broadcasts
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  S6: on like Facebook Live with soldiers in the trenches, on
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  S6: the front line here in bullets zooming by. So it's
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  S6: powerful radio, but it's intended to to take tell the
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  S6: people the truth. This is what's going on in this war.
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  S6: You have no hope in the army. You have no
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  S6: hope in the government. You can have hope in Jesus
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  S6: Christ and it works. People's hearts are open. They're turning
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  S6: to the gospel.
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  S5: Yeah. A quick theological note here is you find over
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  S5: and over again in Scripture that God has God fearing
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  S5: people all over the place, that when they get a
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  S5: fair shot at the gospel, when they hear who Jesus
• 11:36
  S5: is and what he came to do, especially up against
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  S5: crisis like this. Many are called. I'm blown away by
• 11:44
  S5: the numbers of people you're reaching with through radio broadcasts.
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  S5: This has got to even blow your mind a bit.
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  S5: These amount of responses. Half a million people.
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  S6: Yeah. And you know, it's this the technology of social
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  S6: media for decades. Carl. You know, we broadcast on FM
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  S6: radio and we get a lot of letters and people
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  S6: calling in and text messages. But with social media, you
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  S6: can tell exactly how many people have streamed your program,
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  S6: how many people have sent a thumbs up or a like,
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  S6: or even a question or a comment. And so instead
• 12:17
  S6: of speaking to people through radio, we're having a conversation
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  S6: with people through social media. And I believe God has
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  S6: given us this technology at this very time, because people
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  S6: living in the middle of this war, in the middle
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  S6: of this strife, they need somebody to talk to. And
• 12:33
  S6: it's right there in their cell phone.
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  S7: That's amazing.
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  S2: And it's amazing that the young people you have working
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  S2: who are so passionate about the gospel. This is their generation.
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  S2: I mean, they they, they are digital natives. They are
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  S2: speaking the language of the people who are tuning in.
• 12:47
  S2: I mean, that that certainly no accident that God positioned them.
• 12:51
  S6: Yeah. Our program director there in Kiev is a young man.
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  S6: He and his wife are both deeply involved with Fbc's ministry.
• 12:59
  S6: They have two young girls, six and four. Those two
• 13:02
  S6: young girls know nothing other in this world than war.
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  S6: So the war started when they were tiny. And that's
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  S6: all they know. And they speak very calmly about, you know,
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  S6: what they do when they have to go into the
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  S6: air raid shelters and when the bombs blow up in
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  S6: the middle of the night. So their parents, who are
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  S6: living the real life of knowing what war is doing
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  S6: for their family, for their children, those are the ones
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  S6: speaking on the radio. And it makes it perfect. You know,
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  S6: our our slogan for decade has been, we want to
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  S6: be close to the listener when we're living in the
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  S6: middle of the same war zone as they are. Karl.
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  S6: It works.
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  S5: So you're pumping the gospel not only into Ukraine, but
• 13:43
  S5: if I remember right, Allie, wasn't Victor saying that they're
• 13:46
  S5: reaching into Russia as well? Big time.
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  S6: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. We we've been in Russia for
• 13:52
  S6: 75 years and it used to be shortwave. Then it
• 13:56
  S6: was AM radio. We had two powerful AM radio stations.
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  S6: But just about the time that the government said, we're
• 14:01
  S6: going to take these license away from you, we announced
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  S6: on the radio, hey, you know, you can go to
• 14:06
  S6: our website, you can go to our social media sites.
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  S6: We have a cell phone app. And so all of
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  S6: a sudden, as we were announcing that on the radio, Karl,
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  S6: we're seeing thousands and thousands and thousands of people signing
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  S6: up for the social media. So taking the radio stations
• 14:21
  S6: down was probably the best marketing campaign we've ever had.
• 14:24
  S6: So we thank the Russian government for participating in that.
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  S6: But yeah, it's the same in Russia. And so here
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  S6: the countries of Russia and Ukraine are at war. And
• 14:35
  S6: the staff of ABC and in Ukraine and Russia are
• 14:39
  S6: holding hands together and proclaiming the gospel in both languages.
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  S2: And canon with Febc. Now, this church in Kramatorsk, Ukraine,
• 14:48
  S2: is that correct?
• 14:49
  S6: Yes.
• 14:49
  S2: Now you're Far East Broadcasting Company is going to be
• 14:52
  S2: able to. We, I, we know our listeners hear a
• 14:55
  S2: need and we have very generous listeners.
• 14:58
  S5: You have.
• 14:59
  S7: Man.
• 14:59
  S2: You have the ability to if people want to donate something,
• 15:03
  S2: you have the ability to earmark this for the church.
• 15:05
  S2: Is that correct?
• 15:06
  S6: Yeah, we'd be happy to do that. Ali. If you
• 15:09
  S6: go to the febc.org website, there's a donate page. And
• 15:14
  S6: if you want to make a donation, there's a section
• 15:16
  S6: on there that says designate your gift. So just put
• 15:18
  S6: church in Kramatorsk and we don't care if you spell
• 15:21
  S6: it wrong.
• 15:21
  S7: Yeah, it doesn't matter.
• 15:23
  S6: And everything that anybody wants to give to that church
• 15:26
  S6: will make absolutely sure it goes to the families, the pastor.
• 15:29
  S6: I don't know if they'll rebuild the church right away
• 15:31
  S6: or not, but we'll do everything we can to help
• 15:34
  S6: them out.
• 15:34
  S5: Yeah, it's going to be a Herculean task to rebuild it.
• 15:37
  S5: We've got a link boom crew, and then we're going
• 15:39
  S5: to pray here a little bit, because we got brothers
• 15:42
  S5: and sisters over there that their lives are being ravaged emotionally.
• 15:47
  S5: And now a church physically has been utterly blown to smithereens, man.
• 15:51
  S5: And it was a big old church. But real quick clarification,
• 15:55
  S5: this is a gospel preaching church, right?
• 15:57
  S6: Yes, that's right. It's an evangelical church that we partner with.
• 16:01
  S6: And yeah, they've they've been partners with us on the radio. Uh,
• 16:05
  S6: lots of the people in that church are taking, uh,
• 16:08
  S6: fix tuned radios and take them to their people so
• 16:11
  S6: that they can hear febc radio. Um, yeah.
• 16:15
  S5: I don't want to read too much into it, but
• 16:16
  S5: does it sound like Putin's lackeys targeted that on a
• 16:20
  S5: Sunday morning? That's a little too coincidental, if you know
• 16:23
  S5: what I mean.
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  S6: Yeah, I know we worry about that. And I'm like you.
• 16:27
  S6: I don't want to presuppose, but it does sound bad. Um,
• 16:31
  S6: the missile that blew up really near our radio station
• 16:35
  S6: in Sloviansk were quite sure was a target. I mean, they, uh,
• 16:40
  S6: they were in Sloviansk a number of years ago and
• 16:43
  S6: actually killed some of our broadcasters. So, um, we feel
• 16:47
  S6: like that was targeted. We know that the Russian government
• 16:50
  S6: is very unhappy with this stuff that ABC has been broadcasting,
• 16:54
  S6: and we try and stay away from politics, but it's
• 16:57
  S6: pretty clear that they don't like the gospel.
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  S5: God forbid freedom, hope, vitality, comfort. You know what I mean, Allie. Horrible, horrible.
• 17:06
  S5: What we're offering up. Yeah.
• 17:08
  S2: We we want to get you a key word. If
• 17:10
  S2: you want to learn more about Far East Broadcasting Company,
• 17:13
  S2: if you want to donate and designate it, just Mark
• 17:15
  S2: Church in Kramatorsk Church in Ukraine. However you get it
• 17:18
  S2: in there, just designate it and they will set it aside.
• 17:21
  S2: Just text far to 805 557898. Far, far to 805 Five. Five. 78. 98.
• 17:31
  S5: Thanks for ducking in here this morning. Let me do this, father.
• 17:33
  S5: In the name of Jesus, we come before you and
• 17:36
  S5: we ask you to take what was meant for evil
• 17:39
  S5: and turn it to good. Right now I'm asking that
• 17:42
  S5: there would be a spiritual awakening. Lord, we know that
• 17:44
  S5: the whole world will not come to you, but we
• 17:47
  S5: know that in tragedy, in times of peril, you capture
• 17:51
  S5: people's hearts and show them that there is life abundant
• 17:55
  S5: even through it all. And I pray in Jesus name
• 17:58
  S5: right now, that even as we pray your spirit would
• 18:01
  S5: be at work, we know that the sun is up
• 18:03
  S5: in Ukraine. We know that there is there are innocent
• 18:08
  S5: people that are being forced to the battlefield who have
• 18:12
  S5: no desire to even fight this war. In many, many
• 18:17
  S5: hundreds of thousands of young men in particular are losing
• 18:20
  S5: their lives. But Lord, the innocent civilians caught in the crossfire.
• 18:24
  S5: O Lord, we pray. Would you do a work of
• 18:26
  S5: awakening and revival. We. We ask you, God, go to work.
• 18:32
  S5: And we thank you that as we ask you, you
• 18:36
  S5: move and we give you praise today in Jesus name. Amen.
• 18:40
  S2: Amen.
• 18:41
  S6: Amen.
• 18:42
  S5: All right. Ali, what's that info again?
• 18:44
  S2: Yeah. The word to text is fa FAR to 805 557898.
• 18:50
  S2: FA to 805 557898. Just look for that donate button.
• 18:55
  S2: If you do want to donate and just market church
• 18:57
  S2: in Ukraine or church in Kramatorsk.
• 19:00
  S1: Want to hear that again? Just download the Call and
• 19:03
  S1: Crew podcast wherever you like to stream.
• 19:06
  S5: Spiritual gifts can be a sticky topic. How many of
• 19:10
  S5: them are still for today and how are they to
• 19:12
  S5: be exercised in the body of Christ? Obviously it's for
• 19:16
  S5: the building up of the body, not oneself. Oftentimes we
• 19:20
  S5: get off the rails right there. But Doctor Craig Keener
• 19:24
  S5: is the kind of man we need in here. Professor
• 19:27
  S5: of biblical studies at Asbury Theological Seminary. He's the author
• 19:31
  S5: of 40 books. 1.4 million copies are in circulation or
• 19:36
  S5: way more. His latest book we're going to discuss here,
• 19:39
  S5: Spiritual Gifts are for today. Doctor keener, good to have
• 19:42
  S5: you with us today.
• 19:45
  S8: It's great to be with you, Carl.
• 19:47
  S5: Tell me something. I was down there at Asbury, broadcasting
• 19:51
  S5: down below the chapel when that Great Awakening was happening.
• 19:56
  S5: Are there is there still a long tail effect? Can
• 19:59
  S5: we can we see that God has utilized that not
• 20:02
  S5: just locally in Asbury, but around the globe? Are you
• 20:06
  S5: hearing any word about that, Craig?
• 20:08
  S8: Yeah, sometimes when I when I go different places, people
• 20:11
  S8: tell me that they've been touched by it in terms of,
• 20:14
  S8: of here. I think the, the atmosphere has changed here
• 20:18
  S8: as well. One thing about colleges, your generation turnover is
• 20:24
  S8: like every four years. Yes it is so. But still,
• 20:28
  S8: I think it's affected kind of the kind of students
• 20:30
  S8: who come. And also it's affected the atmosphere. Certainly it's
• 20:34
  S8: affected those of us who were here then who are
• 20:37
  S8: still here.
• 20:38
  S5: Yeah. That's what I was curious about. Did it have
• 20:40
  S5: a long tail effect even with the professors there? And
• 20:43
  S5: I'm sure it did.
• 20:45
  S8: With many of us at least. I haven't talked with everybody.
• 20:48
  S5: Yeah. That's tremendous. Okay, Craig, let's get into this. Um,
• 20:53
  S5: Doctor Craig Keener is our guest right now. Spiritual gifts. Um,
• 20:58
  S5: there have been abuses of gifts. Even those that some
• 21:02
  S5: would hold are still active today that don't hold to
• 21:06
  S5: prophecy and tongues and others of those sign gifts that
• 21:10
  S5: we commonly see in the New Testament. There can be abuses,
• 21:14
  S5: even discernment. Gift of discernment. Remember someone that I had
• 21:18
  S5: to caution? They were using discernment to almost be a
• 21:22
  S5: reader of People's Mail for the purpose of. They would.
• 21:26
  S5: They were using it to almost tear people down. And
• 21:30
  S5: I said, my friend, this is to build up the
• 21:32
  S5: body of Christ. Explain that Craig, with a just a
• 21:36
  S5: pure exegetical understanding of the building up of the body,
• 21:41
  S5: the edification. We've got to talk that before we talk gifts,
• 21:45
  S5: don't we, Craig?
• 21:46
  S8: Yeah. First Corinthians 14 and Ephesians four, actually, when they
• 21:52
  S8: talk about spiritual gifts, building up is really important. Some
• 21:55
  S8: people talk about foundations when they talk about spiritual gifts,
• 21:59
  S8: but it's especially used in the context of not just
• 22:03
  S8: a foundation, but building on that foundation, building people up.
• 22:07
  S8: First Corinthians 143 talks about prophesying, being for edification or
• 22:13
  S8: building up exhortation and consolation. Now, there are places in
• 22:18
  S8: the Bible where prophecy is corrective. It's true, certainly in
• 22:23
  S8: the seven churches of Asia Minor, the only two cases
• 22:27
  S8: of the prophecy we have in the book of acts
• 22:30
  S8: that are actually narrated are in acts 11, that there's
• 22:34
  S8: a famine coming. And acts chapter 21, where, Paul, you're
• 22:40
  S8: going to get in trouble when you get to Jerusalem.
• 22:42
  S8: So it's not always to be happy news, but it
• 22:44
  S8: is to help people.
• 22:45
  S5: Yeah, I think that's a great clarifier. It is to
• 22:48
  S5: help people. That's putting it in simple English terms. You know,
• 22:52
  S5: with regard to the gift of revelation, um, there's been
• 22:56
  S5: a lot said about this. This gift had to have
• 23:00
  S5: ceased because we have a closed canon. There's no new revelation.
• 23:06
  S5: What is your biblical take on the gift of revelation
• 23:11
  S5: to dispel myths that are out there? What do you say, Craig?
• 23:16
  S8: I would say my understanding is that there's no new
• 23:21
  S8: doctrine after the Bible, so we should not accept any
• 23:27
  S8: teaching or any prophecy that would give us new doctrine.
• 23:32
  S8: But from my understanding of the Bible, the idea that
• 23:36
  S8: the gifts would cease is itself a post-biblical doctrine. And
• 23:41
  S8: that's why I don't accept it. Prophecy is to build
• 23:45
  S8: up people. When when a person gets a call from God,
• 23:49
  S8: we don't say that's adding to the Bible. But when
• 23:52
  S8: the spirit bears witness to our spirit that we're God's children,
• 23:55
  S8: we don't say that's adding to the Bible. And if
• 23:58
  S8: I feel like God gives me a message for the
• 24:01
  S8: congregation through the gift of prophecy, or through the gift
• 24:04
  S8: of teaching, to guide in a certain way, to build
• 24:07
  S8: them up in a certain way. That's not adding a
• 24:10
  S8: new doctrine. So I, I do agree with those who
• 24:13
  S8: say we shouldn't have biblical doctrine. But I don't see
• 24:17
  S8: how that would end. The gift of prophecy. Prophecy was
• 24:20
  S8: going on all through the Bible, but most of the prophecies,
• 24:25
  S8: most of the prophecies in the Bible, aren't actually giving
• 24:28
  S8: new doctrine. They're closer to expounding the biblical message that's
• 24:33
  S8: already there. You have. While the New Testament is being written.
• 24:38
  S8: If you've got two prophecies per week in the average
• 24:42
  S8: house church across the Roman Empire, by the end of
• 24:46
  S8: the first century, you've got hundreds of thousands of Christian
• 24:50
  S8: prophecies being given. And yet they were never meant to
• 24:54
  S8: compete with Scripture. Certainly, they aren't added to Scripture.
• 24:58
  S5: Doctor Craig Keener is my guest right now. There's been
• 25:02
  S5: a lot of discussion some have used when the perfect comes. Tongues,
• 25:07
  S5: prophecies and other of these ecstatic gifts are going to cease.
• 25:11
  S5: The context of that passage is when Jesus returns, but
• 25:16
  S5: it's been misconstrued to be the closing of the canon.
• 25:19
  S5: How did that and I and I think we're on
• 25:21
  S5: solid ground to debunk that as a proof text for
• 25:25
  S5: these gifts. Ceasing. Explain why that is fallacious.
• 25:30
  S8: Doctor keener even the church fathers seem to have used
• 25:34
  S8: the text to say the opposite, that it's. It's well
• 25:37
  S8: to say what you've said. They say that it's Jesus
• 25:41
  S8: at the Second Coming. Context is when we see him
• 25:44
  S8: face to face. When we. When we know as we
• 25:48
  S8: are known, we. We don't need our partial knowledge right now.
• 25:53
  S8: We know in part we prophesy in part. First Corinthians
• 25:56
  S8: 139 but when perfect knowledge comes, when we know him
• 26:01
  S8: face to face, we're not going to need that partial knowledge.
• 26:04
  S8: So prophecy teaching, we're not going to need those at
• 26:09
  S8: that time. As Jeremiah 31 says, and especially at the
• 26:14
  S8: fullness of the New covenant when Jesus comes back. No
• 26:17
  S8: longer will they need anyone to teach one another saying,
• 26:21
  S8: know the Lord, because we'll all know the Lord from
• 26:23
  S8: the least of us to the greatest of us. There's
• 26:25
  S8: coming a time when the gift of teaching will definitely
• 26:28
  S8: pass away, as well as prophecy and tongues and everything else,
• 26:32
  S8: because we won't need them when we're in the full
• 26:35
  S8: presence of the Lord. But I think the implication of
• 26:37
  S8: the context is until then, they're really useful. Yeah.
• 26:42
  S5: Really good. Doctor Craig Keener, our guest right now, he's
• 26:46
  S5: a great student of the original languages. He is highly
• 26:50
  S5: respected as one of the great academics of our day.
• 26:54
  S5: There's been a lot of discussion about the book of acts.
• 26:58
  S5: And some use the word fancy word dispensation, meaning a
• 27:02
  S5: season in time, and that that was a unique dispensation.
• 27:06
  S5: And what we find in acts with regard to some
• 27:09
  S5: of these miraculous sign gifts may have ended from your
• 27:13
  S5: vantage point. Again, we give fair time here to different
• 27:16
  S5: vantage points. But from your vantage point, why has. And
• 27:21
  S5: why must the events and occurrences in the early church
• 27:26
  S5: go on to this day, not just anecdotally, but theologically?
• 27:31
  S5: Why is that central to the gospel?
• 27:34
  S8: Throughout the Gospels and acts we see God, um, having
• 27:39
  S8: people proclaim the kingdom. And the mystery of the kingdom
• 27:42
  S8: is that Jesus is the King and Jesus is is
• 27:46
  S8: exalted now as King. So those signs were to attest
• 27:50
  S8: that Jesus is king in the book of acts, like
• 27:53
  S8: in acts 143, it says that as they preach the
• 27:56
  S8: good news of grace, these signs were attesting that good
• 28:00
  S8: news of grace. Well, we're still preaching the good news
• 28:03
  S8: of grace. We're still preaching the kingdom. Jesus didn't become
• 28:06
  S8: king and then stop being king. He inaugurated the kingdom.
• 28:10
  S8: We're still awaiting the consummation of the kingdom, and we
• 28:13
  S8: won't need healing anymore because everybody will be healed. Who's
• 28:17
  S8: in the kingdom? But in the meantime, these are still
• 28:21
  S8: the signs of the kingdom. We see them happening most
• 28:24
  S8: often as signs. I mean, God can heal anytime, anywhere.
• 28:28
  S8: But we see the signs that grab people's attention most
• 28:33
  S8: often on the cutting edge of evangelism, which is where
• 28:36
  S8: we see them in the Gospels and in the book
• 28:39
  S8: of acts. Also, like some people don't don't think we
• 28:44
  S8: can get theology from narrative, which I don't agree with.
• 28:48
  S8: Second Timothy 316 says all, all Scripture is for teaching. But,
• 28:54
  S8: you know, you have to get it in different ways
• 28:55
  S8: from different, different genres, different types of writing in the Bible.
• 28:59
  S8: But in acts chapter two, when Peter is preaching, led
• 29:04
  S8: by the Holy Spirit, that's not just narrative there. That's
• 29:09
  S8: that's theological message. And he's building on what Joel said
• 29:15
  S8: and the way the way Peter interprets it. In the
• 29:18
  S8: last days, God says it was the last days. Then
• 29:22
  S8: if anything, it's last for days now, right? So, um,
• 29:26
  S8: he says, in the last days I will pour out
• 29:30
  S8: my spirit on all flesh. And here's, here's how he
• 29:35
  S8: describes what that looks like based on Joel. Your sons
• 29:38
  S8: and daughters will prophesy. Your young men will see visions.
• 29:42
  S8: Your old men will dream dreams. Um, I, I this
• 29:45
  S8: is not based on my experience. I've never had a vision, but, uh,
• 29:49
  S8: and then he reinforces it and they will prophesy and
• 29:53
  S8: he's actually interpreting the event that has just happened where
• 29:58
  S8: the believers were speaking in other tongues. So if anything,
• 30:02
  S8: signs of this end time outpouring of the spirit, us
• 30:06
  S8: being in the age of the spirit, which I think probably,
• 30:09
  S8: hopefully all of us should agree on in the New
• 30:12
  S8: Testament include prophecy and so on. Peter then goes on
• 30:18
  S8: to say, these are signs of Christ's exaltation. Yes, he
• 30:22
  S8: hasn't stopped being exalted. We're still in that dispensation. We're
• 30:26
  S8: still in the era when whoever calls in the name
• 30:28
  S8: of the Lord will be saved. Peter doesn't divide these things.
• 30:32
  S8: Nowhere does the New Testament divide these things. That's a
• 30:35
  S8: post-biblical imposition in the text.
• 30:39
  S5: Doctor Craig Keener, my guest right now, he's the author
• 30:42
  S5: of co-author of a brand new book called Spiritual Gifts
• 30:45
  S5: Are for today. It goes without saying that there's been
• 30:48
  S5: abuses of spiritual gifts for 2000 years. You look at Corinth,
• 30:53
  S5: and often what we find there is more corrective than
• 30:56
  S5: it is instructive in some ways. So, Craig, why is
• 31:03
  S5: it and I have two thoughts on this. One is
• 31:05
  S5: that there's a lot of abuses because there are people
• 31:07
  S5: who are not regenerated, who are trying to wield gifts.
• 31:11
  S5: I think that we've got a vast number of people
• 31:13
  S5: in Bible preaching churches who are not saved. And so
• 31:17
  S5: now you're looking for fanciful experiences to bolster something that, frankly,
• 31:23
  S5: isn't there. And then there are people who are genuinely
• 31:26
  S5: born again, as there were in Corinth, even though Paul
• 31:28
  S5: did say, examine yourself to see if you're in the faith.
• 31:31
  S5: It was very probable that there were people there in
• 31:34
  S5: the church who were not in Christ. The abuses have
• 31:38
  S5: kept people at arm's length from even considering that these
• 31:42
  S5: gifts could be going on today. Are those two of
• 31:45
  S5: the biggest reasons, both unregenerate people wielding something that is
• 31:50
  S5: not theirs to wield, and then a desire for some
• 31:54
  S5: fanciful experience, even among the regenerate? What do you say, doctor?
• 31:58
  S8: Yeah, certainly. And in fact, sometimes these things have tempted
• 32:02
  S8: me to be a cessationist. I mean, that's the best
• 32:04
  S8: argument for Cessationism is whacky charismatics.
• 32:07
  S5: Yes.
• 32:08
  S8: Yeah. In in first Corinthians 14, when Paul is talking
• 32:13
  S8: about prophecy and telling the church to seek prophecy, he
• 32:16
  S8: says it basically three times in a way. Seek the
• 32:20
  S8: gift of prophecy. And then at the end he says,
• 32:22
  S8: don't forbid speaking in tongues. But he also says in 1429,
• 32:27
  S8: let 2 or 3 at a time prophesy, and then
• 32:31
  S8: let the others evaluate. So even in the case of
• 32:36
  S8: true believers prophesying, like he says in 1309, we know
• 32:40
  S8: in part we prophesy in part. Our teaching has to
• 32:44
  S8: be subject to evaluation. And so does our prophesying. Does
• 32:49
  S8: the same thing. In first Thessalonians he says, don't quench
• 32:52
  S8: the spirit. Don't despise prophesying, but hold on to what's
• 32:56
  S8: good and throw out what's bad, which indicates we need
• 33:01
  S8: to evaluate it. So earlier you gave the example of discernment.
• 33:05
  S8: We need a lot more discernment in the gift of prophecy.
• 33:09
  S8: And especially when you've got like today, so much on
• 33:12
  S8: the internet is driven by algorithms. So you have people
• 33:16
  S8: prophesying what people want to hear. Well, Jeremiah's day you
• 33:20
  S8: had the majority of prophets were wrong. But don't throw
• 33:24
  S8: out Jeremiah. He was right.
• 33:26
  S5: The problem with those prophecies is that most. So let's
• 33:30
  S5: go back. If we look at Old Testament and new.
• 33:32
  S5: You've already cited this, that there were warnings of discernment,
• 33:36
  S5: insight and prophecies. But they were cautionary and be slow
• 33:42
  S5: to be a prophet, I guess because most of them
• 33:45
  S5: were killed for what they said. Right, doctor?
• 33:48
  S8: True. Yeah. And the New Testament says James three one,
• 33:53
  S8: don't don't seek to be many teachers because we'll be
• 33:55
  S8: judged more strictly. Well, that's true for prophets too.
• 34:00
  S5: What is your hope? I know that you have great
• 34:02
  S5: fellowship with people who hold to a cessationist approach to
• 34:06
  S5: the miraculous gifts. This should not divide fellowship. Certainly, I
• 34:11
  S5: believe that 100%. This in no way encroaches. And even
• 34:15
  S5: one of one of, uh, some some of the most
• 34:18
  S5: ardent supporters of Cessationism would say, no way do you
• 34:22
  S5: divide fellowship over this. What is your hope for the church?
• 34:27
  S5: I do see a lot of, uh, end times prophecy
• 34:31
  S5: marching toward us. I see seals opening up and horsemen
• 34:35
  S5: getting ready to ride with what's happening in the Middle East,
• 34:39
  S5: and even Jew hatred around the world like we've never
• 34:42
  S5: seen before. Or recently, I should say. What's your hope,
• 34:46
  S5: Doctor Craig Keener for this day, this age that we're
• 34:49
  S5: in when it comes to spiritual gifts.
• 34:52
  S8: And all of us would use our gifts for the
• 34:55
  S8: sake of building up the body of Christ that we
• 34:58
  S8: would bring them together. So most spiritual gifts actually aren't
• 35:04
  S8: in dispute. Most of us agree with most of the
• 35:07
  S8: spiritual gifts that are listed in the New Testament. And
• 35:11
  S8: so whatever our gifts, you know, if a cessationist believes
• 35:15
  S8: in the gift of teaching, well, use that gift of
• 35:19
  S8: teaching to build up the body of Christ. Yeah. So
• 35:22
  S8: we need to build up the body of Christ. So
• 35:24
  S8: together we can reach the world with the good news
• 35:28
  S8: of Jesus Christ. Because the stakes are higher in our generation,
• 35:33
  S8: there's more. I mean, there's more believers, but they're more
• 35:35
  S8: lost people in our generation than they've ever been before.
• 35:39
  S8: We're responsible for our generation to reach them for Christ.
• 35:43
  S8: But God's power will be commensurate with the task that
• 35:46
  S8: he gives us. Yeah. And so we can look to
• 35:49
  S8: God to to use us to reach this generation with
• 35:53
  S8: the gospel.
• 35:55
  S5: I really appreciate your time with us today. If you
• 35:57
  S5: want to get a link to this brand new work
• 36:00
  S5: and other works of Doctor Craig Keener, just text the
• 36:03
  S5: word keen for letters KEEN keen KEEN to 805 557898,
• 36:15
  S5: keen to 805 557898.
• 36:21
  S1: He was sharing the gospel on the radio and then
• 36:24
  S1: he got saved. Young thunders in the crew. It's Carl
• 36:28
  S1: and crew on Moody Radio.
• 36:30
  S2: How do you feel about labels? We all have certain
• 36:35
  S2: labels which often come with a set of baggage assumptions.
• 36:39
  S2: I'll give you an example. My husband is a basketball coach.
• 36:44
  S2: He played basketball for a lot of years, so a
• 36:47
  S2: label that I wore with a little bit of caution.
• 36:51
  S2: I was a basketball wife, a professional athlete's wife, and
• 36:56
  S2: I was well aware when people would apply that label,
• 36:59
  S2: that they probably had a lot of ideas of what
• 37:01
  S2: that may or may not say about me that usually
• 37:05
  S2: weren't accurate, but I was aware of the baggage, and
• 37:08
  S2: sometimes it made me a little hesitant to tell people
• 37:12
  S2: that label. How do you feel when somebody says, are
• 37:15
  S2: you evangelical? Are you one of those evangelicals? Do you
• 37:19
  S2: ever shy away from that label? Because right now, in
• 37:22
  S2: this climate, it feels kind of loaded. Special guest. I'm
• 37:27
  S2: so excited about this conversation because it's a little bit
• 37:30
  S2: of a continuation of something that we brought up a
• 37:32
  S2: couple weeks ago. Doctor Brian Tucker is in studio with us.
• 37:35
  S2: He's associate provost and dean of Moody Bible Institute and
• 37:39
  S2: Moody Theological Seminary and at chapel here, Chapel service here
• 37:43
  S2: at Moody. A couple of weeks ago, he gave a
• 37:45
  S2: fascinating presentation on what it means to be Protestant evangelical.
• 37:51
  S2: And I have to admit, Doctor Tucker, I leaned in
• 37:53
  S2: because although I've heard those terms used of us, of me,
• 37:59
  S2: I had some, uh, questions about what it meant and
• 38:02
  S2: whether or not I wanted to be called evangelical first,
• 38:06
  S2: talk about how those labels have been sort of co-opted.
• 38:11
  S9: So one of the things in terms of evangelical being
• 38:14
  S9: a term that people run away from is because it's
• 38:16
  S9: often associated with a political ideology, and they've heard the term,
• 38:20
  S9: and it's been very popular over the last 40 or
• 38:22
  S9: 50 years in the United States as a religious title,
• 38:25
  S9: but it's also moved into this other area. And because
• 38:29
  S9: people want to be nice, they don't want to talk
• 38:31
  S9: about politics and those sorts of things. They tend to
• 38:34
  S9: just hold back on that label and they just say
• 38:36
  S9: something like, I'm a Christian and leave it at that.
• 38:39
  S9: And so what they don't realize is that they've actually
• 38:41
  S9: lost something about what it means to they're in Christ
• 38:44
  S9: identity by just saying broadly that they're a Christian, rather
• 38:47
  S9: than thinking about the unique aspects of the label evangelical.
• 38:51
  S2: So your presentation, what does it mean to be Protestant evangelical?
• 38:56
  S2: I want to unpack this in a little bit of
• 38:58
  S2: time that we had. You said that when you if
• 39:00
  S2: you just want to say I'm a Christian and kind
• 39:03
  S2: of drop the evangelical, what is lost when you drop
• 39:06
  S2: that word?
• 39:07
  S9: So keeping the two terms together, Protestant and evangelical was crucial.
• 39:12
  S9: The Protestant side of this gives us the salvation context.
• 39:16
  S9: What Luther and others uncovered during the Reformation is that
• 39:20
  S9: over the years, the core nature of Scripture alone, faith alone,
• 39:25
  S9: Christ alone for God's glory alone gets lost.
• 39:28
  S2: And the five solas you may have heard them described as.
• 39:31
  S9: And then on the evangelical side, what do you do
• 39:34
  S9: with this? This comes up a few years after the
• 39:36
  S9: Protestant Reformation, where people start to realize that they had
• 39:39
  S9: the doctrine right, but they weren't living it out rightly.
• 39:41
  S9: And so in some ways, that fills in the idea
• 39:45
  S9: of the salvation. How we live it out in terms
• 39:48
  S9: of Scripture still centered on the cross conversion that a
• 39:52
  S9: person needs to be born again. But the activism part
• 39:55
  S9: that you don't just take it in as a belief,
• 39:57
  S9: but you live it out.
• 39:58
  S2: You had like this one statement that talked about, it's
• 40:01
  S2: not a political party. It's a it's how we're shaped
• 40:05
  S2: by the gospel. What was that phrase? It was it
• 40:07
  S2: was so good.
• 40:09
  S9: It was the Protestant evangelical. What it means to be
• 40:11
  S9: a Protestant evangelical is to be a gospel. People shaped
• 40:15
  S9: by the gospel, not by politics. And in some ways,
• 40:17
  S9: that encompasses the bigger issue here, because it doesn't mean
• 40:21
  S9: that we don't vote. It doesn't mean that we don't
• 40:23
  S9: care for the vulnerable. It doesn't mean that we don't
• 40:24
  S9: engage with what we see around us in terms of
• 40:27
  S9: justice issues, but that it is ordered and subservient to
• 40:31
  S9: who we are based on the gospel message.
• 40:33
  S2: Yeah. And you talked about a lot of people have
• 40:36
  S2: reduced like the being Protestant. Well, I'm not Catholic, so
• 40:40
  S2: I must be Protestant. Explain why it's it's a little
• 40:43
  S2: deeper than that.
• 40:44
  S9: Yes. Because oftentimes it does Protestant. That means I'm not Catholic.
• 40:48
  S9: Better way to think about it would be that over
• 40:51
  S9: maybe a thousand years, if you take the House of
• 40:54
  S9: Christian identity, there's this original house and you get buildings
• 40:57
  S9: attached to it, maybe a conservatory or an extra room,
• 41:02
  S9: and it doesn't look anything like it was before. Yeah.
• 41:05
  S9: So what Protestantism is doing is it's renovating. It's not
• 41:08
  S9: that we don't like the house. We want to get
• 41:10
  S9: back to what it was originally because we love the house.
• 41:13
  S9: And in that sense, it's taking those blueprints and getting
• 41:16
  S9: back to the centrality of the gospel.
• 41:19
  S2: So let's talk about this evangelical identity. You talked about
• 41:24
  S2: four marks of an evangelical identity. What were those?
• 41:29
  S9: So generally, when people ask what an evangelical is, historically,
• 41:34
  S9: they have what's called the bebbington quadrilateral, which is a
• 41:36
  S9: fancy way of saying these are four indicators that we
• 41:39
  S9: see for people that embody an evangelical identity. So the
• 41:43
  S9: first one is they're centered on scripture. And so the
• 41:47
  S9: authority of Scripture is paramount in all that goes on.
• 41:50
  S9: Second is Christ centered. And you can just think about
• 41:54
  S9: the songs that we sing, the hymns that have been sung.
• 41:56
  S9: There's always a centrality. So it's been there in the
• 41:59
  S9: worship along the way. Third is that there's a life
• 42:02
  S9: change that occurs conversion. And then the final one is
• 42:07
  S9: called activism. And so whether it's moving out towards mission
• 42:11
  S9: or engaging in the social implications that come from the gospel,
• 42:16
  S9: that evangelicals don't just leave it at the belief, they
• 42:19
  S9: actually work it out and live it out.
• 42:20
  S2: Yeah. So let's talk about the term ex evangelical. You've
• 42:23
  S2: seen that thrown out there. And it's usually people who
• 42:27
  S2: have deconstructed. So they maybe grew up in an evangelical
• 42:31
  S2: Protestant evangelical background and are now taking it all apart
• 42:35
  S2: and saying, I don't know that I believe this anymore.
• 42:37
  S2: Speak to that a little bit.
• 42:39
  S9: Yeah. So it's something that really emerged during the millennials
• 42:44
  S9: and there was this noted increase among those who had
• 42:48
  S9: been raised within evangelicalism, and they didn't want it anymore.
• 42:52
  S9: And I think one thing to encourage people on that
• 42:55
  S9: is to think that maybe you haven't investigated. You're just
• 42:58
  S9: assuming that this is sociological rather than saying the theology
• 43:02
  S9: is there. And I think that sometimes what happens is
• 43:05
  S9: they're not really rejecting the theology, but it's this pressure
• 43:08
  S9: to embrace all of the other components. I like to
• 43:12
  S9: think of it as the bundling of cable. The cable
• 43:15
  S9: company wants you to have all 100 of these channels,
• 43:17
  S9: and you really only want three. And so sometimes if
• 43:20
  S9: you're working with your daughter or granddaughter or grandson, as
• 43:23
  S9: they try to navigate this, to be able to help
• 43:25
  S9: them to see the difference that you can be a
• 43:28
  S9: cord cutter and still hold to the centrality of the
• 43:31
  S9: gospel message that we see in Ephesians two. And then
• 43:34
  S9: you don't have to take all of the other parts
• 43:37
  S9: of the cable bundle that was being sold to you.
• 43:40
  S2: Because it's being sold to you. It's not though usually
• 43:42
  S2: the extra stuff, the things that says that to be
• 43:45
  S2: evangelical is to have a certain voting pattern or to
• 43:50
  S2: support a certain, you know, we don't have to get
• 43:52
  S2: fully into it. But and some people are saying, no,
• 43:54
  S2: that doesn't describe me. But you're saying, hold on to
• 43:57
  S2: the biblical part and the rest of the stuff. If
• 44:00
  S2: it's not biblical, you don't have to have that part
• 44:02
  S2: of the package.
• 44:03
  S9: Absolutely. I think that's where the discussion about the global
• 44:06
  S9: context is really helpful, because those in the global South
• 44:09
  S9: are not embracing all of those agendas in the same way.
• 44:13
  S9: They have different questions, and we have questions here. And
• 44:16
  S9: to have biblical social implications of the gospel that still
• 44:19
  S9: address issues that scripture talks about that are immoral or idolatrous,
• 44:22
  S9: that there are issues of cultural boasting or unscriptural thought patterns,
• 44:26
  S9: these things that get in the way of the clear
• 44:28
  S9: gospel message and what Christ has done through faith alone.
• 44:31
  S2: Now we're coming up on October 31st, which is a
• 44:35
  S2: significant date. Just give a brief overview of what happened
• 44:39
  S2: on October 31st and why we kind of celebrate Reformation Day.
• 44:42
  S9: Mhm. So when we think about what was going on
• 44:45
  S9: with the word Protestant, oftentimes people do associate it with
• 44:48
  S9: what Martin Luther did. And in that sense, there was
• 44:51
  S9: that focal point in which the the 95 theses are
• 44:56
  S9: nailed on this door. And think of it like a
• 44:58
  S9: bulletin board and saying, I want to have a discussion
• 45:01
  S9: and put those up. And. And when you work through
• 45:05
  S9: each of those, what eventually becomes those five Solas or
• 45:07
  S9: those five Alones can be pointed back to a significant
• 45:11
  S9: number of those 95 concerns. And so in some ways,
• 45:15
  S9: part of this was a person named Johann Tetzel, who
• 45:19
  S9: was going around selling indulgences and basically was giving people
• 45:23
  S9: a confidence that they could pay their way out of
• 45:27
  S9: what their future might be. So purgatory were there, and
• 45:30
  S9: maybe they can get out of it. And so the
• 45:32
  S9: realization came that if that's true, then the gospel is lost.
• 45:37
  S9: And so there was this kind of specific issue that
• 45:39
  S9: needed to be addressed, that had gotten lost over the
• 45:42
  S9: years in terms of the centrality of what Christ had
• 45:44
  S9: done alone through faith alone, in Christ alone.
• 45:47
  S2: What do you hope that the listener I know you've
• 45:49
  S2: presented this at chapel for students and employees, but for
• 45:52
  S2: the person listening who maybe some of this is, you know,
• 45:54
  S2: it's new information. You don't really hear this on a Sunday.
• 45:58
  S2: And maybe they've never even described themselves as Protestant. Why
• 46:02
  S2: is it important to have some understanding around beyond just saying, well,
• 46:06
  S2: I'm I'm a Christian.
• 46:08
  S9: Part of the argument is that we need both terms.
• 46:11
  S9: If we just stay with evangelical, the tendency in this
• 46:14
  S9: period in North American or United States context is to
• 46:17
  S9: really see this as a sociological or a political identity.
• 46:21
  S9: If we only focus on Protestantism, there's several streams of
• 46:25
  S9: Protestantism that have become more liberal. And so by keeping
• 46:29
  S9: the two together is really kind of the sweet spot
• 46:32
  S9: in that we have the clarity of the gospel, and
• 46:35
  S9: then we have clarity for how we live this out
• 46:37
  S9: in light of the social implications of the gospel. So
• 46:40
  S9: the argument is keeping both terms together. So if somebody
• 46:43
  S9: says to me, are you an evangelical? Maybe the better
• 46:46
  S9: thing for me to say is I'm a Protestant evangelical,
• 46:48
  S9: because that keeps the theological aspects of my identity clear,
• 46:54
  S9: that it's not simply just a sociological or political identity.
• 46:58
  S2: And I like how you talked about like the house metaphor.
• 47:01
  S2: And as I think it's important because in a culture
• 47:03
  S2: that can be very divided and where people can feel
• 47:06
  S2: like to have like, I'm a Protestant, evangelical can sound
• 47:10
  S2: like we're trying to set ourselves apart or like we
• 47:12
  S2: have this special distinction. But one thing that you emphasize
• 47:15
  S2: is this is really just a desire to return to
• 47:19
  S2: just what biblical Christianity looks like, and not in some
• 47:22
  S2: of the ways that it's been reinterpreted, reconfigured.
• 47:26
  S9: Yeah. So I think one of the things that happened
• 47:28
  S9: with that is that there were new challenges that came up.
• 47:32
  S9: So whether it was the gospel moved into new parts
• 47:35
  S9: of the world or new challenges that emerge in the
• 47:39
  S9: cultural context. And what ends up happening from that is
• 47:43
  S9: they go back to scripture. There's not a direct application
• 47:47
  S9: for the challenge that they're wrestling with. And so then
• 47:50
  S9: they use a theological framework to try to solve the problem.
• 47:54
  S9: And what ends up happening is they end up having
• 47:57
  S9: a cultural overlay and then they're blind to it. And
• 48:00
  S9: then over time, that cultural because that's the issue, that's
• 48:04
  S9: the issue of the day becomes the one that becomes
• 48:06
  S9: most important. And so for me, when we think about
• 48:08
  S9: a Protestant evangelical identity, it should be the the top.
• 48:12
  S9: Think of it like an umbrella. It's an identity that
• 48:14
  S9: I can have so that when rain comes or other
• 48:17
  S9: challenges come, there's this overarching identity. And then who I
• 48:21
  S9: am as an American, as a father and as a husband.
• 48:24
  S9: Those get informed by the gospel instead of being separate
• 48:26
  S9: from this overarching sense of who I am in Christ.
• 48:30
  S2: Mhm. And the shift from in terms of just the
• 48:33
  S2: population of Protestant evangelical. You mentioned the North American. Kind
• 48:38
  S2: of application, but the global South is where we're seeing
• 48:41
  S2: the rapid growth. Speak to that a little bit.
• 48:43
  S9: Absolutely. So oftentimes when these debates go on. They're very
• 48:47
  S9: North American centric or Western Europe centric. And so that
• 48:51
  S9: becomes kind of. The way of understanding these terms, when
• 48:55
  S9: that might have been the case in the early 1900s.
• 48:58
  S9: But now. The broader percentage or if you think of
• 49:02
  S9: it in terms of a describing who is an evangelical.
• 49:05
  S9: Statistically today, it might be a woman in Brazil or
• 49:08
  S9: Nigeria studying her Bible. And so oftentimes. There's a sense
• 49:12
  S9: that we're evangelical, we're Protestant. Rather than recognizing what a
• 49:17
  S9: global Protestant evangelical identity really is. And once we can
• 49:21
  S9: decouple that, then that takes away some of the sting
• 49:26
  S9: of using this only as a sociological or a political identity. Yeah.
• 49:30
  S9: So one of the things I think when we look
• 49:31
  S9: at the label of Protestant evangelical. And oftentimes people are like, oh,
• 49:35
  S9: that's just a theological label. But if you look at
• 49:38
  S9: Ephesians two 1 to 10, everything that we've talked about
• 49:42
  S9: is there, right? That we were dead in our trespasses
• 49:44
  S9: and sins, but God, and that it's the salvation is
• 49:48
  S9: through faith. And then at the end, it says that
• 49:52
  S9: you were prepared for good works. Yeah. So the activism
• 49:55
  S9: is there. And so I think all of those labels,
• 49:59
  S9: Protestant and evangelical, are rightly ordered because they're emerging from scripture.
• 50:04
  S2: We have Bryan Tucker with us right now. Fascinating conversation.
• 50:07
  S2: I hope that you learned a lot. I know that
• 50:09
  S2: this is a this is a lot, but we want
• 50:11
  S2: to let you go a little bit deeper. I mentioned
• 50:13
  S2: there was a chapel service where he unpacked this with
• 50:15
  S2: a little bit more detail. If you want to watch that.
• 50:18
  S2: That was from chapel in September, September 15th. Just text
• 50:21
  S2: chapel to 805 557898. We'll link you to the message
• 50:26
  S2: in its entirety. Just text chapel to 805 557898.