Latest / Who Did What Now With Katie Charlwood / 55. Dame Alice Kyteler - Ireland's First Witch

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55. Dame Alice Kyteler - Ireland's First Witch · Who Did What Now With Katie Charlwood

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Speaker 1: You're listening to an airwave media podcast. Hi, everybody, welcome
0:19
Speaker 1: to Hooded. What Now the history podcast? It's not your
0:22
Speaker 1: history class with me? Your host Katie Charlewood, history Harlotte
0:26
Speaker 1: and reader of books and also a person who has
0:32
Speaker 1: to continually argue with people about the fact that I am,
0:36
Speaker 1: in fact the historian. Also, yes, my voice is going
0:40
Speaker 1: slash gone because I was it in Bilfast last night
0:46
Speaker 1: and I met my friend Paul and we went to
0:49
Speaker 1: dinner and then we went out for drinks and at
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Speaker 1: one point I am I am re enacting and its
0:57
Speaker 1: entirety the this routine by Friscate and Manish who were
1:02
Speaker 1: this musical deo comedy musical video and they have this
1:07
Speaker 1: sort of thing called Kate Bash, which is where they
1:11
Speaker 1: do like a mash up of Kate Nash and Kate Bush.
1:15
Speaker 1: And so I'm doing the full performance. I'm doing like
1:18
Speaker 1: the whole dance routine. It's it's quite a set to
1:22
Speaker 1: be seen. And this is after me singing like just
1:25
Speaker 1: Kate Bush throughout the streets of Belfast, which is a
1:29
Speaker 1: completely normal thing to do. So yeah, or we had
1:34
Speaker 1: some very interesting conversations in the dad Dive Bar, which
1:37
Speaker 1: was very loud, so between that my voice is kind
1:41
Speaker 1: of dodgy, so I know that it might not be as
1:44
Speaker 1: fun to listen to unless you're into this sort of thing,
1:46
Speaker 1: in which case, Hi, do you like jazz ooh sexy?
1:52
Speaker 1: And it was a good time, had a good time.
1:55
Speaker 1: I had some ridiculously expensive cocktails, but they were so
2:00
Speaker 1: good and I would absolutely go back again. So I
2:02
Speaker 1: need to make sure I bring fancy close me to
2:05
Speaker 1: Belfast Fear. I had a good had a good time.
2:10
Speaker 1: I want to thank everybody for their consistent reviews and
2:17
Speaker 1: listening and following and sharing, because I was going and
2:22
Speaker 1: I evender did I mention it? Last week the Spotify
2:24
Speaker 1: wrapped where it's like, this podcast is in the top
2:27
Speaker 1: one percent most followed podcasts like on Spotify, and it's
2:35
Speaker 1: in the top five percent more shared. I'm being listened
2:39
Speaker 1: to an eighty five countries and it's just it's just
2:44
Speaker 1: it's it's fucking amazing, you know what I mean, Like,
2:47
Speaker 1: it's it's ridiculous. I'm so excited and just kind of
2:53
Speaker 1: odd by it all. And OMG, yeah, I got recognized.
2:59
Speaker 1: I was in I was out to dinner with my
3:01
Speaker 1: mom on Saturday night and i'd gone it, and at
3:06
Speaker 1: one point, like the server, he just stops and just
3:09
Speaker 1: looks at me. It's just looking at me, and he goes, so,
3:14
Speaker 1: you look really familiar, like I've seen you on TV
3:16
Speaker 1: or something. And I turned to my mom and she
3:19
Speaker 1: looks at me, and I look at her, and I
3:21
Speaker 1: suddenly get kind of nervous and I'm like, oh my
3:26
Speaker 1: have a TikTok and an Instagram. And he goes, that's
3:30
Speaker 1: it and he walks away, and I was like, oh
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Speaker 1: my god, is this not as cool as that being
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Speaker 1: on TV? Like I've been on the BBC tod I'm cool, honest.
3:42
Speaker 1: But then my back was really bad because I took
3:44
Speaker 1: a pretty pretty bad tumble on some black ice coming
3:47
Speaker 1: down to Hell and I fell hit my back, my
3:51
Speaker 1: hip and looking for me, I had a scrunchy in
3:53
Speaker 1: my head, so when I hit my head off the ground,
3:57
Speaker 1: completely cushioned by this crunchytastic. So anyway, I go back
4:02
Speaker 1: up to bed because I'm in a lot of pain
4:05
Speaker 1: and I'm just exhausted. And he comes back to my
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Speaker 1: mom and he's like, oh no, did I embarrass her?
4:12
Speaker 1: He was like, I follow her and this is really
4:14
Speaker 1: cool on like Instagram and I'm like, it's really cute
4:19
Speaker 1: because she comes back up and she tells me this
4:21
Speaker 1: whole story, and yeah, it was. It was really really cool,
4:26
Speaker 1: and it's one of my friends said to me, you know,
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Speaker 1: this is one person who recognized you and came up
4:32
Speaker 1: to you. Like how many other people recognize you and
4:35
Speaker 1: don't do you or say anything? Which is interesting. But
4:42
Speaker 1: also if you do recognize me and you like my stuff,
4:45
Speaker 1: like absolutely, come speak to me, like unless I'm like
4:49
Speaker 1: telling my kid he's been an arsehole, in which case,
4:51
Speaker 1: stand back for a minute until I'm done. Not that
4:54
Speaker 1: that's ever happened well in public, but you know, it's
4:57
Speaker 1: absolutely fine to come up and chat and stuff. It's
5:00
Speaker 1: it's cool come talk to me. I'm I'm a very
5:04
Speaker 1: awkward person in real life, so you might get second
5:08
Speaker 1: haiming embarrassment just by talking to me, but it's all
5:11
Speaker 1: good in the end. And I had somebody actually ask
5:14
Speaker 1: me about merch because I'd be like, I was trying
5:17
Speaker 1: to get merrich and I realized you don't have any
5:20
Speaker 1: And that's for a couple of reasons, the first being
5:24
Speaker 1: I'm not entirely sure how to do it, and I'm
5:28
Speaker 1: not sure if I have anyone that I could work with,
5:31
Speaker 1: or if I could afford, like to pay an artist,
5:34
Speaker 1: because like you know, artists die of exposure, you know
5:37
Speaker 1: what I mean. So I want to make sure that
5:40
Speaker 1: I can afford to pay somebody for their work, because
5:42
Speaker 1: I would feel like an absolute preck if I was
5:48
Speaker 1: expecting someone to work for free, you know what I mean.
5:50
Speaker 1: I mean, I can do some things myself, which is fine.
5:54
Speaker 1: I could probably do some really basic like merch stuff,
5:57
Speaker 1: but I really wouldn't know where to start because most
5:59
Speaker 1: of my followers, like I have followers in the majority,
6:03
Speaker 1: are in the US, UK, Ireland, Australia and then Germany.
6:10
Speaker 1: So like it's fine if I was doing stuff for
6:13
Speaker 1: like Germany and Ireland, they can kind of fall into
6:16
Speaker 1: the same thing. Australia is another whole thing, and then
6:19
Speaker 1: the US is just whatever, and then the UK is
6:22
Speaker 1: separate from nothing else. It's just because like tax and stuff,
6:27
Speaker 1: and there's just so much to it. And then I
6:31
Speaker 1: have people telling me that I need to get an agent,
6:34
Speaker 1: and I quite literally googled how to get an agent
6:43
Speaker 1: because I don't know how to do that. So I
6:48
Speaker 1: googled that and it gave me no help whatsoever. So
6:53
Speaker 1: if you know an agent who covers social media, digital
6:58
Speaker 1: history people, that's not even what I am. That is
7:01
Speaker 1: a terrible description. I'm a social scientist whose main expertise
7:06
Speaker 1: is in history. But the point is, like I I
7:11
Speaker 1: could probably have, I say, better representation. Any representation would
7:15
Speaker 1: be better representation, because I currently have zero. But I
7:20
Speaker 1: know what you're thinking. Your thinking quite your jabber jabber
7:22
Speaker 1: in fact me, in fact you I will. But first
7:27
Speaker 1: we've got to get our source on. Our sources are sex,
7:32
Speaker 1: sin and Celibacy in Early Christian Ireland by Lisa by Tell,
7:37
Speaker 1: The Sorcery Trial of Alice Kyteler by Sharon Davidson, from
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Speaker 1: Alice Kayteler to Florence Newton, Witchcraft in Medieval Ireland by
7:48
Speaker 1: Mary McAuliffe. A Deed without a Name, Unearthing the Legacy
7:54
Speaker 1: of Traditional Witchcraft by Morgan Lee, Diagnosing Heresy by Jennifer Barry,
8:02
Speaker 1: The kay Taylor Witch by Candice Munsey Pool. And of
8:07
Speaker 1: course we have her old favorites Hastory dot com. So
8:13
Speaker 1: I keep pronouncing it kay Taylor. It could be Kitler,
8:15
Speaker 1: it could be Kaitler. I'm not entirely sure. Because I've
8:19
Speaker 1: only ever read it, I've never heard it pronounced. Also,
8:22
Speaker 1: it's a Flemish name, and I genuinely don't know how
8:26
Speaker 1: Flemish words are pronounced. So apologies to all of the
8:31
Speaker 1: Belgians out there who are listening in. And I'm like,
8:34
Speaker 1: oh God, what is she saying? This is ridiculous. So
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Speaker 1: Dame Alice is actually the first woman in Ireland to
8:43
Speaker 1: be convicted for the crime of witchcraft, and not only that,
8:48
Speaker 1: I think she actually is the first woman in Europe,
8:54
Speaker 1: like as a whole, to be officially convicted, you know,
8:59
Speaker 1: as a wis. And it's a very kind of twisted
9:03
Speaker 1: tale where if she had not been convicted of witchcraft,
9:10
Speaker 1: we probably wouldn't know anything about Alice. But anyway, I
9:17
Speaker 1: use it uncomfortably good. Then let's begin. Get ready to
9:23
Speaker 1: be shocked, dear listener, because we actually have a year
9:27
Speaker 1: of birth for a woman in the early medieval period.
9:33
Speaker 1: What what the fuck is this? Alice was born in
9:38
Speaker 1: twelve sixty three. Do we know you know what month
9:43
Speaker 1: or day? No, but we have a year. And that's
9:46
Speaker 1: as good as we're ever gonna fucking get. I swear
9:49
Speaker 1: to Christ to her parents wear Flemish merchants, basically Uncle Kenny.
9:59
Speaker 1: At the time, it was a very mixed space, so
10:04
Speaker 1: there were a lot of different nationalities there because you
10:07
Speaker 1: had like the Normans coming in and with that you
10:10
Speaker 1: had sort of France wasn't really France. It was more
10:16
Speaker 1: like a regional based so you would have like different
10:19
Speaker 1: areas of France in Belgium and Germany and Dutch. You know,
10:24
Speaker 1: they would all kind of be going through this area
10:27
Speaker 1: because it was a very big trade trade area. And
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Speaker 1: Dame Alice, her father was a very prominent, very wealthy merchant,
10:39
Speaker 1: and she happened to be their only child. So when
10:43
Speaker 1: he passed away, the only person left to run the
10:47
Speaker 1: business and carry it in his stead was Alice. And
10:53
Speaker 1: apart from that, her early life we know, sweet fuck
10:57
Speaker 1: all about it, absolutely nothing. So when she is seventeen, though,
11:02
Speaker 1: Alice gets married and she marries her first husband, William Outlaw,
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Speaker 1: Yes that is actually his name. So he is like
11:13
Speaker 1: a banker or whatever the equivalent of a banker would be.
11:17
Speaker 1: He's like really wealthy, he's a merchant. They sort of
11:20
Speaker 1: running the same circles because they're basically from the same class.
11:24
Speaker 1: You know. He's also a money lender, which is something
11:28
Speaker 1: that Alice takes on and starts doing herself. So they
11:33
Speaker 1: have at least one child, maybe two together. So they
11:38
Speaker 1: have a son, also called William, so there's William outlaw
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Speaker 1: the second and they have a daughter called Rose. Maybe
11:50
Speaker 1: they kind of there's a possibility that perhaps they had
11:57
Speaker 1: a daughter called Rose. Married for five years, and their
12:02
Speaker 1: marriage ends when William passes away, and for the next
12:11
Speaker 1: seventeen years Alice is unwed, unmarried, a widow, unwedd What
12:23
Speaker 1: the fuck? Clearly the pain colors are starting to kick in.
12:29
Speaker 1: So for seventeen years, Alice is a single mother to
12:36
Speaker 1: one maybe two children. And in thirteen oh two, when
12:45
Speaker 1: she's in what age now math math May thirty nine.
12:52
Speaker 1: I did math. I added stuff up using a calculator
12:57
Speaker 1: because for some reason I could not do the mental
12:59
Speaker 1: watic of seventeen plus five plus seventeen. So she's thirty
13:05
Speaker 1: nine and Alice gets married a second time, and apparently
13:11
Speaker 1: this is suspicious because three years after she marries Adam
13:17
Speaker 1: Bloond of Calan Callen Colan, who is also a widow
13:27
Speaker 1: heir overwere because he has children from a previous marriage.
13:32
Speaker 1: So they get married and it's thirteen oh five and
13:37
Speaker 1: her son, William from her first marriage, he is now
13:42
Speaker 1: the mayor of call Kenny. So Adam and Alice have
13:48
Speaker 1: been married for three years. William is now the mayor
13:51
Speaker 1: of Co Kenny, And then suddenly Alice and Adam are
13:58
Speaker 1: accused of inspiring and murdering her first husband, which I mean,
14:07
Speaker 1: I understand letting the dust settle so that you don't
14:11
Speaker 1: like arouse suspicion, but I feel like waiting seventeen years
14:18
Speaker 1: to then get married just feels like maybe, you know,
14:27
Speaker 1: waiting a little bit too long like that. I understand
14:31
Speaker 1: you don't want to be like conspicuous, but that just
14:35
Speaker 1: feels like you're, you know, dragging it out and kicking
14:37
Speaker 1: the urse out of it a wee bit, don't you think,
14:41
Speaker 1: Like wouldn't they have gotten together I don't know, fifteen
14:45
Speaker 1: years earlier, ten even, Like if they were going to
14:48
Speaker 1: murder one spouse, why don't murder the other? Like it's
14:52
Speaker 1: women died in medieval past all the time, the medieval
14:56
Speaker 1: past and the medieval times all the time, like anythings
15:00
Speaker 1: could have easily gone wrong. But yeah, it's it's such
15:03
Speaker 1: a strange thing, like, oh, clearly this is this is
15:09
Speaker 1: a thing. So they get accused, and surprisingly enough it
15:15
Speaker 1: doesn't really come for it. It's very strange though, because
15:23
Speaker 1: she's been single for all this time, and all this
15:25
Speaker 1: time that she has been single, she's been working with
15:28
Speaker 1: her son and they have been basically accruing wealth. So
15:34
Speaker 1: she is very wealthy and she's a money lender. So
15:41
Speaker 1: people nobody likes a money lender. It's not just Shylock
15:45
Speaker 1: in the Merchant of Venice like that, well that has
15:48
Speaker 1: it's all xenophobic, sectarian issue. But this is a woman
15:54
Speaker 1: who is independently wealthy and has power, prestige. She's connected
16:02
Speaker 1: to like parliament and noble families, and she is basically
16:09
Speaker 1: kind of the same thing with Elzabet Battery, who was
16:14
Speaker 1: again independently wealthy, had power and didn't really rely on
16:18
Speaker 1: men for shit, although she did, you know, work with
16:22
Speaker 1: her son to do a lot of stuff, because probably
16:26
Speaker 1: I'm going to assume she cared for his existence. So
16:30
Speaker 1: of course, the independently wealthy not reliant on men, of
16:36
Speaker 1: course she's going to be a target. And so her
16:41
Speaker 1: and Adam they're married for how many years, so at
16:46
Speaker 1: some point between thirteen oh five and thirteen oh nine,
16:52
Speaker 1: Adam dies suddenly, mysteriously or at the very least an
16:59
Speaker 1: unusual death. So he dies. That being said, we're not
17:04
Speaker 1: actually told how old he is. All we knows he died.
17:08
Speaker 1: And then so he dies, and Alice is even richer
17:15
Speaker 1: because partly he left her a ton of money and
17:19
Speaker 1: as well, Diddy leaves stuff to his other kids, don't know,
17:24
Speaker 1: but he left it to his wife. And so Alice
17:27
Speaker 1: is substantially better off than she was before, which might
17:31
Speaker 1: have been maybe things weren't going well for her in
17:34
Speaker 1: the money business, and that's why she remarried. Hymn'st say
17:38
Speaker 1: that's why she waited so long to get married. And
17:40
Speaker 1: then in thirteen oh nine, which you know, still a
17:44
Speaker 1: shorter time between second and third husband than there was
17:48
Speaker 1: between first and second, she marries Richard Deval. Don't know
17:54
Speaker 1: if you're noticing a pattern here, but these are not
17:57
Speaker 1: sort of a Gaelic names, like she's not marrying into
18:03
Speaker 1: like the Irish the population. She's marrying into the Norman nobility.
18:11
Speaker 1: Because Richard, he's not a per man, no, absolutely fucking not.
18:16
Speaker 1: He is a wealthy landholder in Tipperary, like he owns
18:24
Speaker 1: Hugh Tracks of land and they're together for what seven years,
18:30
Speaker 1: because he passes away in thirteen sixteen, and he also
18:36
Speaker 1: has like children from a previous marriage, so he's also
18:42
Speaker 1: a widower. So like she's marrying she's a widow who's
18:47
Speaker 1: marrying widowers. It is, which just seems to make good
18:51
Speaker 1: financial sense. I suppose for both of them to have that.
18:56
Speaker 1: And he dies apparently suddenly and mysteriously, but like there's
19:02
Speaker 1: a bunch of reasons people die in the Middle Ages.
19:04
Speaker 1: It's not that mysterious, but perhaps it was. So when
19:11
Speaker 1: he passes away, Richard's sons like hold back like her,
19:23
Speaker 1: her widow's dour, Like there is money that she's supposed
19:26
Speaker 1: to get as a widow. It's just like a portion
19:30
Speaker 1: of money, you know. It's it's to cover her, you know,
19:33
Speaker 1: living expensive things like that, you know, and their stepchildren
19:40
Speaker 1: do not give it to her. And so she takes
19:43
Speaker 1: legal proceedings against one of our step sons, who was
19:48
Speaker 1: also called Richard, so I think he must have been
19:51
Speaker 1: the oldest one. So because the doer, which is you know,
19:55
Speaker 1: you know, when you get a diwray in order to
19:57
Speaker 1: get married, you know, the husband would receive a diwwray
20:00
Speaker 1: for the wife. When you know, one partner dies, the
20:05
Speaker 1: widow would receive a dour, which would you know, be
20:09
Speaker 1: the recompensated I suppose so. Because she takes legal proceedings
20:14
Speaker 1: against Richard Junior, like her stepchildren Richard's children, which were
20:21
Speaker 1: the first children Richard Prime, they start getting really suspicious
20:28
Speaker 1: and they get really sort of dickish because they're like,
20:32
Speaker 1: we would have had that money had she not demanded it,
20:37
Speaker 1: because they very much almost had it, but because she
20:41
Speaker 1: was like, fuck this for a game of soldiers, you
20:44
Speaker 1: give me my money, which meant they had considerably less
20:50
Speaker 1: and she had a good chunk. More So, because of
20:57
Speaker 1: all this already, you know, the people of Kenny weren't
21:01
Speaker 1: super excited about Alice's existence at the best time. And
21:08
Speaker 1: what really adds salt to that wound is that Alice
21:11
Speaker 1: gets married for a fourth time the very same year
21:17
Speaker 1: that her previous husband dies. So she is widowed and
21:22
Speaker 1: remarried in thirteen sixteen. Now this could be an extra
21:30
Speaker 1: sort of age thing, because you remember at this point
21:34
Speaker 1: she is fifty three years old, So she's fifty three
21:38
Speaker 1: years old in the Middle Ages. Now. I don't know
21:41
Speaker 1: if you've ever seen a teenager from the nineteen eighties,
21:45
Speaker 1: but they look so fucking old, Like you know when
21:48
Speaker 1: you watch old TV shows and you're like, why are
21:50
Speaker 1: they trying to convince us this clearly forty year old
21:52
Speaker 1: man is a teenager. You look at any yearbook from
21:56
Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties and they all look like they're in
21:59
Speaker 1: their late thirties, early forties. It's ridiculous. Like I don't
22:02
Speaker 1: know if it's the hair, I don't know if it's
22:04
Speaker 1: like the fact that none of them are wearing sunscreen
22:06
Speaker 1: throughout their lives. Whatever it is, it just makes them
22:09
Speaker 1: look really fucking old, Like a fifty year old person
22:14
Speaker 1: twenty years ago does not like the same age as
22:17
Speaker 1: a fifty year old person today, Like we just age better. Maybe,
22:23
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe they aged better back in the Middle Ages,
22:27
Speaker 1: but clearly clearly not. So back to the story, Fuck
22:35
Speaker 1: Tangents is Alice Mary's John Lepeur la Peur Jean Leapeul
22:43
Speaker 1: and they are married for eight years. Had to thank
22:49
Speaker 1: there for a second, because that is also math. So
22:54
Speaker 1: John is also a widower. He also has children from
22:59
Speaker 1: a pre marriage. I'm starting to think that Alice has
23:03
Speaker 1: a very specific type. It always seems to be nobility
23:10
Speaker 1: who have you know, lost a spouse and have children
23:15
Speaker 1: from their previous marriage. It just seems to be a thing.
23:18
Speaker 1: So they're together for what eight years, and in the
23:22
Speaker 1: last sort of months of his life, John tells, like
23:29
Speaker 1: the bishop, that he thinks he's being poisoned because he's
23:35
Speaker 1: feeling really sick. So his hair is getting silver patches
23:39
Speaker 1: and is falling out. Now the silver patches, I'm gonna say,
23:43
Speaker 1: is probably age, but it is coming on very very quickly,
23:49
Speaker 1: so he his nails are going funny. He's really ill,
23:53
Speaker 1: and it basically sounds like arsenic poisoning to me. But
23:57
Speaker 1: clearly their dosage isn't correct whatever, So they he dies anyway,
24:05
Speaker 1: and when he dies, the Bishop Richard de Ladred, who
24:12
Speaker 1: have probably butchered his name, he wants to get like
24:17
Speaker 1: Alice just fucking locked up. So he along with along
24:24
Speaker 1: with many stepchildren from all of these previous things, they
24:30
Speaker 1: want Alice done and gone for So before John Lepour died,
24:35
Speaker 1: even though he thought he was being poisoned, had still
24:39
Speaker 1: changed his will to benefit Alice and her son William Outlaw. Yes,
24:49
Speaker 1: so the bishop is fucking pest because this woman is
24:54
Speaker 1: living her life and doing all the stuff she wants
24:57
Speaker 1: to do, so he tries to get her arrested, you know,
25:05
Speaker 1: because he's trying to get arrested on the fact that
25:10
Speaker 1: she's a poisoner and all these step children are like,
25:14
Speaker 1: she clearly bewitched him to change the will and to
25:17
Speaker 1: benefit her and to give her all his shit. And
25:20
Speaker 1: then after she like magically hoodwinked him, she poisoned him.
25:26
Speaker 1: And the Bishop's like, fucking a witchcraft because this is
25:30
Speaker 1: like a nobility tension issue, because even though like in
25:34
Speaker 1: mainland Britain, you know, murdering one another is not really cool.
25:40
Speaker 1: Across the rest of the places where you know, British
25:43
Speaker 1: people were noble feards were happening all the fucking time,
25:48
Speaker 1: and the way the secular courts worked was like most
25:53
Speaker 1: of the time, anyone who was accused or any noble
25:57
Speaker 1: who was accused of like murdering another noble, for the
25:59
Speaker 1: most part, they got off. I know, this is shocking news,
26:05
Speaker 1: absolutely shocking news. You are surprised at this information that
26:09
Speaker 1: the rich person got away with literal murder. So in
26:13
Speaker 1: thirteen twenty four, the bishop is trying hard as fuck
26:17
Speaker 1: to get Alice arrested, and so he starts writing to
26:21
Speaker 1: the Chancellor of Ireland, Roger Outlaw, to like make this happen.
26:30
Speaker 1: Unfortunately for the Bishop, Roger Outlaw just so happens to
26:34
Speaker 1: be the brother of Alice's first husband and uncle to
26:41
Speaker 1: her son. So he's demanding she be arrested, and he's
26:48
Speaker 1: trying to use like inquisition from like defending the faith
26:53
Speaker 1: from the twelve eighty eight as the reason to like
26:56
Speaker 1: look her up. Roger is kind of like, hmmm, nah,
27:03
Speaker 1: because the Bishop is like, you know, the secular trial,
27:08
Speaker 1: you know, shouldn't happen. It has to be like an
27:10
Speaker 1: ecclesiastical trial basically, because if she's accused of witchcraft, which
27:16
Speaker 1: is far more taboo and far more like dodgy than
27:20
Speaker 1: just a rich woman who got rid of other rich people,
27:24
Speaker 1: where she would have been acquitted of her crimes. If
27:28
Speaker 1: she's accused of witchcraft, which is like this massive fucking
27:31
Speaker 1: issue and a ridiculously Christian country, then this would give
27:39
Speaker 1: you know, leave for him to basically cart Blande to
27:42
Speaker 1: do with the fucking want of Alice. So the Chancellor
27:47
Speaker 1: is like, how about this, how about instead of blocking
27:53
Speaker 1: her up, you know, why don't we excommunicate her from
27:58
Speaker 1: the church for at least forty days before the trial.
28:05
Speaker 1: So this automatically delays the proceedings because if she's excommunicated,
28:10
Speaker 1: if she's not you know, part of the church, she
28:14
Speaker 1: cannot be put on trial by the church. And what
28:18
Speaker 1: this does is this gives Alice just enough time to
28:23
Speaker 1: get the fuck out of Dodge and get to Roger Outlaw.
28:30
Speaker 1: And so the bishop is pissed. He's mad as fuck
28:34
Speaker 1: because he starts accusing like Richard of harboring heretics, and
28:41
Speaker 1: it becomes this massive fucking thing. Roger is like investigated
28:48
Speaker 1: by this commission and they again you're going to be
28:52
Speaker 1: shocked at this information. They clear him of any wrongdoing.
29:00
Speaker 1: So whatever happened, I think Alice must have just like
29:04
Speaker 1: sidestepped out the way. And Alice and her son, William,
29:12
Speaker 1: they are officially charged with the crimes of heresy. Now
29:22
Speaker 1: accusing very rich, very noble, very well connected people of
29:27
Speaker 1: being heretics might not be the smartest move for somebody.
29:34
Speaker 1: So while he does this, William contacts Sir Arnold Lapour,
29:45
Speaker 1: who may or may not be connected to his last
29:48
Speaker 1: step father. I'm not sure, but he's a senior official
29:52
Speaker 1: in Dublin who gets the bishop fucking thrown in prison
29:58
Speaker 1: in Co Kenny Castle and prison it's probably a fucking dungeon,
30:03
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So, but he's a bishop, right,
30:10
Speaker 1: so you cannot keep the bishop locked up forever. So
30:13
Speaker 1: eventually the bishop gets out and because what he does
30:22
Speaker 1: is this is actually really I mean, it's smart, because
30:24
Speaker 1: he is the bishop. He's in charge of the diocese.
30:27
Speaker 1: Like he refuses, he blocks oh sort of religious proceedings,
30:32
Speaker 1: so there's no mass, there is no marriages, there's no
30:37
Speaker 1: like funeral rites, like none of this can happen because
30:41
Speaker 1: the bishop is locked up because he bans it all.
30:43
Speaker 1: So eventually they have to fucking leave him and let
30:46
Speaker 1: him out. And once the bishop is free, he is
30:50
Speaker 1: like a bear with a burnt arse. He is fucking
30:53
Speaker 1: pested and he is gunning for Alice, and so he
30:57
Speaker 1: is ready to get her charged. He wants to get
30:59
Speaker 1: her locked up. He is he is focused on this task,
31:05
Speaker 1: and so he accuses Alice and like a bunch of
31:10
Speaker 1: accomplices and he investigates them for literal months and they're
31:16
Speaker 1: accused of like a bunch of fucking charges. There's like
31:22
Speaker 1: seven like official ecclesiatrical like charges on all one is
31:30
Speaker 1: denying the power of Christ and the Church. And because
31:36
Speaker 1: like effectively, not being like super Christian was akin to
31:43
Speaker 1: worshiping the devil. Like if you weren't super Christian, you
31:46
Speaker 1: were totally like a fucking devil worshiper. There was no
31:48
Speaker 1: one between, like Yearney. The second thing they were accused
31:55
Speaker 1: of was sacrificing animals to these very specific demons Artists
32:03
Speaker 1: Phileas and Robin Artisan like very specific demons. I mean,
32:10
Speaker 1: that's where that came from. I have no idea. So
32:14
Speaker 1: the third thing she's accused of is asking demons for
32:18
Speaker 1: advice on witchcraft. There's also number four having sexual relationship
32:28
Speaker 1: with the incubist Robert Addison, who often took the forms
32:32
Speaker 1: of like animals or an Ethiopian or Abscenian. I suppose
32:40
Speaker 1: they would have been at the time, which, Okay, we're
32:47
Speaker 1: gonna we're gonna circle back to that one, I think. Okay,
32:50
Speaker 1: number five holding coven meetings and burning candles in the
32:55
Speaker 1: church at night without permission. You can you know, I
33:00
Speaker 1: can excuse the witchcraft, but I cannot accept you burning
33:03
Speaker 1: candles at night with a permission. Fuck me sideways. So
33:09
Speaker 1: part of this coven had like Robert of Bristol, Petronella Demeath,
33:14
Speaker 1: Mead's daughter, Sarah uh Anata lange Eva de Brownstone, William Paintaboli,
33:21
Speaker 1: Alice Favor, John Sassick, Ellen Sassick, Calrison, like it was
33:26
Speaker 1: a big Schmorgan's born to people number six making dark
33:33
Speaker 1: magic based ointments, powders or portions, including the horrific ingredients
33:43
Speaker 1: such as the body parts of unbaptized children, worms and
33:49
Speaker 1: chicken innards, and all these potions were used to corrupt
33:55
Speaker 1: her husband's And the last thing is obviously bewitch and
34:00
Speaker 1: killing your husband to take the money for herself and
34:03
Speaker 1: her only biological son. So we're gonna circle back to
34:08
Speaker 1: number four, which is the sexual relationship. So here's something
34:16
Speaker 1: that made them accuse Alice of witchcraft. One may have
34:21
Speaker 1: been fucking someone who is not white, which I don't
34:27
Speaker 1: know about you seems just a tad racist to me
34:32
Speaker 1: now actually considering the black person they're accusing of her
34:35
Speaker 1: fucking is just the embodiment of an actual fucking demon,
34:41
Speaker 1: or not like a fucking demon, but like a demon
34:44
Speaker 1: who does also fuck. I mean, it's a whole thing,
34:48
Speaker 1: but the best part of this is that when they
34:50
Speaker 1: were like looking through her stuff and going into her room,
34:54
Speaker 1: they found this item in her like bedside real that
35:02
Speaker 1: was they said, was kind of looked like a pipe
35:04
Speaker 1: but wasn't a pipe and was anointed with oil. So
35:09
Speaker 1: they assumed that this mysterious phallic shaped device or item
35:19
Speaker 1: was some kind of like totem for for like witchcraft
35:25
Speaker 1: and sorcery, when if you look at all the evidence.
35:29
Speaker 2: For it, oh, all evidence points to it's a dildo.
35:41
Speaker 1: I've spoken about this before and I'm sure it will
35:44
Speaker 1: not be the last time, but there are dildos that
35:47
Speaker 1: currently exist that we know predate the written word, like
35:52
Speaker 1: they have been around for quite literally thousands of years.
35:58
Speaker 1: But Alice had a dildo in her nightstand. And instead
36:05
Speaker 1: of like logic, like whenever you mentioned anyone about these
36:10
Speaker 1: dil doors, every like the amounts of people that go, oh, well,
36:13
Speaker 1: maybe it was a toll for this to make the
36:14
Speaker 1: still for that, And I'm like, mate, that is a cock,
36:16
Speaker 1: like that is a penis, Like that is the shape
36:21
Speaker 1: of it. That is that is a fucking dildo, Like,
36:25
Speaker 1: get over it, Like stop trying to excuse it when
36:28
Speaker 1: like walks like a duck and quacks like a duck
36:32
Speaker 1: and looks physically like a duck. It's a mother fucking duck,
36:38
Speaker 1: Like it's quacking in your face. Get over it. Stop
36:43
Speaker 1: saying it's a goose. But yeah, it's this whole thing
36:47
Speaker 1: that one of the reasons she gets accused of witchcraft
36:51
Speaker 1: is because of sexual devians, which is a dil do.
36:58
Speaker 1: So the bishop is trying to get like all these
37:01
Speaker 1: people to confess and Alice is just not having it.
37:05
Speaker 1: She's not saying shit. So for months she doesn't confess.
37:11
Speaker 1: William doesn't confess. He does, however, apologize for you know,
37:17
Speaker 1: getting the bishop arrested. And because he comes out and
37:21
Speaker 1: apologizes and does this, he kind of gets like a
37:23
Speaker 1: really lenient sentence, like it's it's very lenient compared to
37:27
Speaker 1: what everyone else gets. So after like this stalemate that's
37:33
Speaker 1: going on for like months, because I think the bishop
37:37
Speaker 1: was just mainly dealing with pride at this point, but
37:40
Speaker 1: he manages to get his hands on Petronola dem who
37:43
Speaker 1: is Alice's servant. Made Petronilla is tortured, like actually tortured,
37:51
Speaker 1: and you know they use the term flogging as if
37:55
Speaker 1: that well, we go to talk by flogging. Yeah, you
38:00
Speaker 1: whipped her and caused her unsurmountable pain until she confessed
38:08
Speaker 1: to a crime she didn't commit, because like she's confessing
38:11
Speaker 1: to this this witchcraft and sorcery and that there were
38:14
Speaker 1: these like demons around and they would collect herbs and
38:21
Speaker 1: collected bugs and boiled brains and mixed the portions and
38:26
Speaker 1: poisons and did offerings to these three demons and it
38:33
Speaker 1: was like this, but she was like tortured for quite
38:37
Speaker 1: a long period of time and surprisingly enough, like mm hmm.
38:47
Speaker 1: So Petronilla is flogged and is then burnt at the
38:57
Speaker 1: stake on the third of November thirteen twenty four because
39:04
Speaker 1: you know, she's charged of witchcraft because like she confessed
39:06
Speaker 1: ergo she was involved. So she actually ends up being
39:09
Speaker 1: I think the first person like like murdered because she
39:16
Speaker 1: was accused of witchcraft in Ireland like officially like sentenced
39:20
Speaker 1: to death because of it. And Alice, Alice takes Petronella's
39:29
Speaker 1: daughter at some point during this ordeal, like she takes
39:32
Speaker 1: her daughter and she fucks off to England because the
39:37
Speaker 1: woman has money, she has means, and I don't know
39:40
Speaker 1: whether she was taking the you know, this girl to
39:44
Speaker 1: protect her or so that she had a servant whom's
39:50
Speaker 1: to say, So she fucks off. And William he's like
39:59
Speaker 1: a ca to like heresy. He's accused of perjury for
40:03
Speaker 1: lying on the stand, he's accused of adultery because apparently
40:06
Speaker 1: he's also fucking demons, and he gets accused of all
40:10
Speaker 1: this stuff. But like most courts in the country just
40:19
Speaker 1: like absolutely refused to try this very wealthy man, like
40:23
Speaker 1: this well connected man. And William he gets like convicted,
40:29
Speaker 1: he gets excommunicated, and he even gets like imprisoned for
40:33
Speaker 1: a wee bit. But he's like, whips, I'm very sorry,
40:39
Speaker 1: please forgive me. And the Bishop's like okay, cool, and
40:42
Speaker 1: he actually manages to get like recommunicated because he goes
40:46
Speaker 1: to visit the Holy Land. He's like, look, I did
40:48
Speaker 1: a thing. It's great. So Alice is fucked off and
40:53
Speaker 1: there's like no more records of our existing, which she
40:56
Speaker 1: could have easily gone there to like England and just
41:00
Speaker 1: given a different name. Would anyone know, Absolutely fucking not.
41:05
Speaker 1: They wouldn't have known. But yeah, that is. That is
41:14
Speaker 1: the story of Alice Kaye Taylor, the first woman, first
41:21
Speaker 1: women to be accused of witchcraft, like officially in Ireland
41:26
Speaker 1: and or Europe. So ends our story of Alace Kay Taylor.
41:35
Speaker 1: If you liked this story or liked my retailing over
41:38
Speaker 1: and didn't mind that I butchered so many fucking names
41:41
Speaker 1: and that I've probably missed out a chunk of stuff
41:44
Speaker 1: and gone on a tangent because I am losing my
41:48
Speaker 1: voice and my brain and will to exist. If you
41:53
Speaker 1: liked this story written review five stars, Apple Podcasts Spotify
41:59
Speaker 1: were whatever you do your podcasts, you rate me, and
42:02
Speaker 1: you rate me well because I appreciate it, and awls
42:05
Speaker 1: bought me up the charts and I'm just chilling crappies.
42:08
Speaker 1: It would really help if you want to support the podcast.
42:14
Speaker 1: We have a tip jar on we I I'm the
42:18
Speaker 1: only one here. I have a tip jar. It's just paper,
42:21
Speaker 1: don't call. You can go on the Beacons link, which
42:23
Speaker 1: is either on the Instagram or the TikTok or don't
42:25
Speaker 1: know if if you're like sending things, there's an Amazon
42:30
Speaker 1: wish Lift wish list. God, it's been a long day,
42:35
Speaker 1: so that's there. You can also follow me on social media.
42:38
Speaker 1: I'm on Instagram, I'm on TikTok, I'm on Twitter. You'll
42:43
Speaker 1: either find me by like Hooded, What Now p D
42:45
Speaker 1: or Who Did What? No Pod, depending on how many
42:47
Speaker 1: characters they let me use. So recommendation time, I am
42:55
Speaker 1: gonna recommend White Lotus. To watch White Lotus on and
43:04
Speaker 1: get season two that's on there on Netflix. Just watch
43:07
Speaker 1: it. It's great. The book I'm gonna recommend is China Rich Girlfriend.
43:17
Speaker 1: I just started reading it. It's it was one of
43:19
Speaker 1: the first times in a long time I've read a
43:21
Speaker 1: book just for pleasure and not for like research, and
43:25
Speaker 1: I just I loved crazy rich Asians and China which
43:28
Speaker 1: girlfriend is just as good. Also, it helps that I
43:30
Speaker 1: did manage to get a copy of the book, like
43:32
Speaker 1: because the cover was damaged a bit, so I got
43:35
Speaker 1: it for like three quid instead of however much it's
43:38
Speaker 1: supposed to cost. I'll take the damaged cover. I don't
43:41
Speaker 1: give a fuck. And for listening, you know what, I
43:47
Speaker 1: want everybody to go listen to the grease To soundtrack
43:51
Speaker 1: because most of it is doorgeay as hell. Like some
43:55
Speaker 1: of the songs are absolutely amazing. I mean, do it
43:57
Speaker 1: for our country. You have to be patriotic to love
44:01
Speaker 1: that man singing.
44:02
Speaker 2: To you.
44:04
Speaker 1: Like I feel like that man was very responsible for
44:08
Speaker 1: a lot of like girls sexual awakening, and it's even
44:12
Speaker 1: funnier because like, like when you consider that a gay
44:15
Speaker 1: man is responsible for the sexual awakening of so many women,
44:18
Speaker 1: like it's just it's just funny. But yet nah ah
44:23
Speaker 1: that is just And he's doing the walking towards her
44:28
Speaker 1: and he's singing it. Ah ah, I love him. Ah,
44:35
Speaker 1: but yes, go listen to that. If there's every a
44:38
Speaker 1: movie they should remake, I think they should remake Greece too,
44:41
Speaker 1: but get like some more writers involved in, some more
44:43
Speaker 1: musicians involved in, just like we do it, just like
44:49
Speaker 1: rewrite it, like keep some of the songs. There's I
44:52
Speaker 1: think there's like half the songs you can keep. In
44:54
Speaker 1: the rest you can just fuck off because they're no good.
44:57
Speaker 1: But anyway, that is me done ranting. Thank you for listening,
45:01
Speaker 1: thank you for putting up with my voice. And there's
45:05
Speaker 1: probably like points in this where it's just gone really quiet,
45:09
Speaker 1: and that's where I've paused to have a coughing fit
45:13
Speaker 1: and then re record. So sorry about that, Sorry about
45:16
Speaker 1: my voice, and hopefully normal services will resume next week,
45:19
Speaker 1: will be a bit more fun, more uplifting, and if
45:22
Speaker 1: you've got anything like recommendations, or stuff that you really
45:25
Speaker 1: think would be interesting for me, like chat about or whatever.
45:28
Speaker 1: Just like tweet me or DM me or whatever. It's like,
45:32
Speaker 1: I'm you can email me too. My emails are always open.
45:37
Speaker 1: If you send me death threats though, that's just not cool.
45:40
Speaker 1: I'm not into that. But anyway, with that, I shall
45:44
Speaker 1: bid you all good night. Adios or revoir of Where
45:51
Speaker 1: Is Them? My friends, ah bye bye