Latest / Beyond Leadership - Adopting a Coaching Mindset / #12 - Quitting a Stable Newsroom Career for an Unproven Automation Path

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#12 - Quitting a Stable Newsroom Career for an Unproven Automation Path · Beyond Leadership - Adopting a Coaching Mindset

• 0:03
  So, you know,
• 0:03
  it's been 11 months since
• 0:04
  we've spoken
• 0:04
  with each other.
• 0:06
  I
• 0:06
  just saw
• 0:07
  that.
• 0:07
  Okay. Yeah.
• 0:08
  I'm
• 0:08
  wise, right? It does.
• 0:11
  Really does. Yeah.
• 0:11
  I think I have a
• 0:12
  little cold. I
• 0:12
  think it's really not going
• 0:15
  to be
• 0:16
  noticeable. Yeah. Nothing that keeps
• 0:18
  me from working.
• 0:18
  So, it's not that severe.
• 0:22
  Welcome to
• 0:27
  Beyond Leadership.
• 0:28
  Adopting a coaching mindset.
• 0:30
  In this
• 0:30
  series, our conversations aren't
• 0:33
  about biography
• 0:33
  or polished advice.
• 0:35
  They're about
• 0:35
  how decisions are made
• 0:37
  in the
• 0:37
  real world when the pressure
• 0:40
  is on. We'll
• 0:40
  anchor on one situation
• 0:42
  where the
• 0:42
  path wasn't obvious, and
• 0:45
  explore what goes
• 0:45
  on in the mind of
• 0:47
  a leader
• 0:47
  when confronted with real
• 0:50
  tradeoffs,
• 0:50
  imperfect information, and
• 1:01
  the need to
• 1:02
  move anyway. This podcast
• 1:14
  is brought
• 1:14
  to you by Peer
• 1:17
  Plaza,
• 1:17
  human help instantly.
• 1:19
  Tore Rich
• 1:19
  works with generative AI
• 1:21
  at JP/Politikens
• 1:21
  Hus, Denmark's largest media
• 1:24
  company. Earlier
• 1:24
  in his career, he
• 1:27
  worked as
• 1:27
  a journalist and local
• 1:30
  news editor
• 1:30
  while also quietly building
• 1:33
  tools
• 1:33
  that automated parts
• 1:36
  of the
• 1:36
  newsroom's daily work. Over
• 1:39
  time, he
• 1:39
  realized that combining
• 1:41
  journalism,
• 1:41
  programming, and automation
• 1:44
  might actually be
• 1:44
  its own field. At
• 1:46
  that point,
• 1:46
  he faced a decision:
• 1:50
  stay in a
• 1:50
  stable newsroom role or
• 1:53
  leave and
• 1:53
  start a one-man development
• 1:57
  company with
• 1:57
  no guaranteed income. And I
• 1:59
  want to understand
• 1:59
  how you thought through that
• 2:02
  moment. Now,
• 2:02
  I understand that you
• 2:05
  still really
• 2:05
  do have a full-time job
• 2:07
  at your disposal.
• 2:07
  So, you do
• 2:07
  have,
• 2:07
  let's say, backup
• 2:10
  income. Isn't that
• 2:10
  right? Yes, of course. I
• 2:11
  have that. Yeah.
• 2:11
  So, why don't we
• 2:16
  set the
• 2:16
  scene here? Why don't
• 2:17
  you tell
• 2:17
  us bring us into
• 2:20
  what
• 2:20
  we're talking about today?
• 2:24
  Yeah. So, what
• 2:24
  we're talking about is around
• 2:26
  2018 where
• 2:26
  I was working as
• 2:28
  a
• 2:28
  full-time local news
• 2:30
  editor at
• 2:30
  Frederiksborg Amts Avis, a
• 2:33
  daily newspaper, regional
• 2:33
  newspaper covering the northern
• 2:36
  part of
• 2:36
  Zealand and had been in
• 2:39
  that role for
• 2:39
  eight years uh since I was
• 2:41
  30 and uh
• 2:41
  before that I had
• 2:43
  jobs
• 2:43
  at that place
• 2:46
  two years before.
• 2:46
  So I had been at
• 2:50
  that place 10
• 2:50
  11 years and I had been
• 2:52
  thinking about that
• 2:52
  I wanted to do something
• 2:54
  else but
• 2:54
  then I also found
• 2:56
  that on the
• 2:56
  side I had been coding
• 2:59
  doing some different
• 2:59
  kinds of solutions where
• 3:01
  I lived
• 3:01
  I lived in a
• 3:03
  what's that
• 3:03
  called, a shared
• 3:04
  housing
• 3:04
  community where you have
• 3:07
  an apartment with
• 3:07
  part of a like a
• 3:10
  co-op yeah like
• 3:10
  that and I built an
• 3:13
  online site
• 3:13
  for that to host our
• 3:14
  communication within that
• 3:14
  both for the board and
• 3:16
  for the
• 3:16
  members. So I built
• 3:18
  that kind
• 3:18
  of different kind of
• 3:20
  solutions that
• 3:20
  were successful also in 2000
• 3:25
  or before that
• 3:25
  1998 I built for my
• 3:27
  friends a
• 3:27
  local community where we
• 3:30
  still today
• 3:30
  have our main communication
• 3:32
  between us
• 3:32
  five. So built
• 3:33
  different
• 3:33
  kinds of
• 3:36
  solutions I'm
• 3:36
  sorry this is 1998.
• 3:39
  Yeah. I mean
• 3:39
  this is you know
• 3:41
  cutting edge
• 3:41
  at that time wasn't it?
• 3:43
  Yes in the
• 3:43
  start it was just like
• 3:44
  a guest
• 3:44
  book where we couldn't
• 3:46
  write messages I
• 3:46
  didn't know what to use
• 3:49
  that for and
• 3:49
  over time it became our
• 3:51
  main place to
• 3:51
  talk with each other and then
• 3:55
  later I built
• 3:55
  it into a web app and
• 3:57
  it still is
• 3:57
  our main place for
• 3:58
  communication.
• 3:58
  We just to
• 4:00
  give our listeners
• 4:00
  some reference here, we
• 4:02
  didn't really
• 4:02
  have MP3s until what
• 4:07
  96 97. So
• 4:07
  way before streaming and you
• 4:10
  had built
• 4:10
  this platform already uh
• 4:12
  in order
• 4:12
  to communicate with your
• 4:13
  with your
• 4:13
  buddies and still do
• 4:16
  today. That's
• 4:16
  amazing. Yeah. Well, at
• 4:19
  Frederiksborg Amts Avis,
• 4:19
  I found that we every
• 4:22
  day we in
• 4:22
  the newspaper we wrote this
• 4:24
  is what
• 4:24
  happens today in this
• 4:26
  municipality and
• 4:26
  this is what happened
• 4:27
  today in
• 4:27
  that municipality and that
• 4:29
  could be
• 4:30
  for instance at 6
• 4:32
  in the evening
• 4:32
  there will be a gathering
• 4:35
  for this and
• 4:35
  at 7:00 there's a meeting
• 4:37
  in the bridge
• 4:37
  club and at 9 there
• 4:40
  will be a
• 4:40
  concert. Lots of things happening
• 4:41
  throughout the
• 4:41
  day and all that
• 4:43
  was that
• 4:43
  information that we got in
• 4:46
  through email. So
• 4:46
  we got hundreds of emails
• 4:49
  each day. And
• 4:49
  the way the journalists
• 4:50
  did this
• 4:50
  was that they printed
• 4:53
  out the email,
• 4:53
  put it into a pile
• 4:55
  of papers each
• 4:56
  day. They took out the
• 4:58
  current day's
• 4:58
  paper and then wrote a
• 5:01
  list of what
• 5:01
  happened that day. And they
• 5:04
  took like half
• 5:04
  an hour just
• 5:04
  for
• 5:04
  So they went
• 5:09
  from digital to
• 5:09
  paper to and then
• 5:11
  back to
• 5:11
  digital. Yeah. And then
• 5:13
  it was printed
• 5:13
  on paper in the
• 5:14
  end
• 5:14
  again. Well, I you
• 5:16
  know, I remember
• 5:16
  I worked as a consultant
• 5:20
  for a
• 5:20
  publishing company and they
• 5:22
  would print
• 5:22
  out they would print out
• 5:27
  papers and scan
• 5:27
  them and then file them
• 5:30
  as scans later
• 5:30
  on. I said, "Well, why
• 5:32
  don't you just
• 5:32
  take the scans electronically
• 5:34
  instead?" Because
• 5:34
  at that time, this
• 5:36
  is, you know,
• 5:36
  I don't know, 20 years
• 5:37
  ago, but they
• 5:37
  could easily have done
• 5:39
  that.
• 5:39
  Yeah, but they
• 5:42
  completely rejected
• 5:42
  that idea and preferred
• 5:45
  to have
• 5:45
  the paper. Paper was
• 5:47
  very important
• 5:47
  to them. And you
• 5:48
  know, I see
• 5:48
  this all the time
• 5:50
  with accountants
• 5:50
  that they're printing out
• 5:53
  all these papers
• 5:53
  and then they will
• 5:55
  electronically copy
• 5:55
  them again and I'm
• 5:58
  talking now
• 5:58
  2024 I saw this happening.
• 6:01
  So we get
• 6:02
  all types in
• 6:02
  the
• 6:02
  It's amazing. Yeah.
• 6:06
  So that uh
• 6:06
  saved for one municipality like
• 6:10
  half an
• 6:10
  hour each day and
• 6:12
  for others
• 6:12
  between 15 minutes and half
• 6:15
  an hour. And
• 6:15
  I then I then wondered why
• 6:18
  did no one
• 6:18
  do this? This is so
• 6:21
  obvious a
• 6:21
  timesaver that could be
• 6:23
  used for
• 6:23
  real journalism instead. And then
• 6:25
  I found out
• 6:25
  that at that time the
• 6:27
  people working
• 6:28
  in tech at our
• 6:31
  company at
• 6:31
  flexo employees their main
• 6:33
  focus was to
• 6:33
  ensure that all our systems
• 6:35
  worked of
• 6:35
  course for the readers
• 6:36
  but also
• 6:36
  for the journalists, that
• 6:38
  they had
• 6:38
  the right phones and
• 6:39
  computers and
• 6:40
  that everything worked but
• 6:42
  they didn't
• 6:42
  really know much about
• 6:44
  how a
• 6:44
  journalist works throughout the
• 6:45
  day, what
• 6:45
  a journalist's day looks
• 6:47
  like and
• 6:47
  because I had experience in
• 6:49
  both fields I
• 6:49
  could see that and could
• 6:52
  see this is
• 6:52
  this is really a place
• 6:54
  to combine those
• 6:54
  two kinds of worlds
• 6:58
  and make
• 6:58
  everything smoother and free
• 7:01
  up time from
• 7:02
  tedious tasks for
• 7:03
  real
• 7:03
  So when did
• 7:06
  you realize that
• 7:06
  this was not going to be
• 7:09
  just a little
• 7:09
  side gig but turn into
• 7:12
  something more
• 7:12
  important for you?
• 7:13
  That
• 7:13
  was actually first
• 7:16
  a few
• 7:16
  years later. In the
• 7:18
  beginning, I
• 7:18
  thought, well, it could be
• 7:21
  fun to see
• 7:21
  if there are more opportunities
• 7:23
  like this
• 7:23
  in the world. And then
• 7:25
  I had a
• 7:25
  talk with my wife and said,
• 7:28
  if I do
• 7:28
  this, if I quit my job
• 7:30
  and do this,
• 7:30
  we might have a shortage
• 7:33
  of money for
• 7:34
  some time uh that we
• 7:35
  don't know how
• 7:35
  long it's going to be.
• 7:38
  But it was
• 7:38
  my turn because she had
• 7:40
  just a few
• 7:40
  years before that quit her
• 7:43
  job to build
• 7:43
  a local cinema. So, now it
• 7:45
  was my turn
• 7:46
  to go and Okay.
• 7:47
  take
• 7:47
  a chance. Did you
• 7:49
  Did you really
• 7:49
  say to her, "It's
• 7:50
  my
• 7:50
  turn now." No,
• 7:52
  of [laughter]
• 7:52
  course not. She was
• 7:54
  completely uh
• 7:54
  ready for
• 7:55
  it.
• 7:55
  Of course, I
• 7:57
  kind of knew
• 7:57
  that this is there's something
• 7:59
  here. It
• 7:59
  did help that Frederiksborg
• 8:01
  Amts Avis
• 8:02
  did a subscription for this
• 8:05
  tool for my
• 8:05
  company. So, they liked it.
• 8:07
  Yeah. That's what
• 8:07
  got you going then you
• 8:09
  were able
• 8:09
  to start your company
• 8:10
  that way.
• 8:10
  It's interesting, isn't it,
• 8:12
  that you
• 8:12
  can come up with something
• 8:14
  cutting edge or
• 8:14
  not even that cutting edge
• 8:16
  and you can
• 8:16
  present it to people and
• 8:18
  you know the
• 8:18
  first thing you get is no,
• 8:20
  we don't need
• 8:20
  this, we don't want this.
• 8:22
  I remember
• 8:22
  the first uh phone that
• 8:25
  I bought in
• 8:25
  1994, I think it was.
• 8:27
  And I showed
• 8:27
  it to all my friends
• 8:29
  and they said,
• 8:29
  "What do you need that
• 8:32
  for?" you
• 8:32
  know, I mean, mobile phone,
• 8:35
  you know, what's
• 8:35
  the why you know, and
• 8:37
  I'm sure when
• 8:37
  you went around to people
• 8:39
  in the
• 8:39
  beginning, maybe not the
• 8:41
  first gig,
• 8:41
  but maybe you went
• 8:44
  to other
• 8:44
  companies and they did
• 8:47
  you have
• 8:47
  that experience where
• 8:49
  they
• 8:49
  didn't really understand the
• 8:52
  value proposition?
• 8:52
  Yeah, but also within Frederiksborg
• 8:54
  Amts Avis my
• 8:54
  advantage was that I was
• 8:56
  a local news
• 8:56
  editor so I could see
• 8:59
  well this is
• 8:59
  going to be useful and
• 9:01
  then I
• 9:01
  could present it for my
• 9:03
  own editorial room
• 9:03
  and see them use it and
• 9:05
  they would like
• 9:05
  to use it. So, it
• 9:06
  was something
• 9:06
  there, but it was
• 9:09
  more difficult
• 9:09
  for me to have
• 9:11
  other local
• 9:11
  news editor in the company
• 9:13
  use it because
• 9:13
  they would say, well, I
• 9:14
  can see
• 9:14
  that it's useful. And some
• 9:16
  would dig into
• 9:16
  it, but others would say,
• 9:19
  I don't really
• 9:19
  have time right now to
• 9:22
  know how
• 9:22
  to use other
• 9:23
  kinds
• 9:23
  of
• 9:24
  platforms.
• 9:24
  Yeah. My favorite
• 9:27
  is our company
• 9:27
  is just not mature
• 9:30
  enough yet
• 9:30
  to handle something that
• 9:32
  would save
• 9:32
  us lots of
• 9:34
  time.
• 9:34
  [laughter] Yeah. And that
• 9:37
  is the hurdle
• 9:37
  that if you have to you
• 9:40
  have to set
• 9:40
  some time for you to learn
• 9:43
  what is this
• 9:43
  before you can really use
• 9:45
  it. So you
• 9:45
  have to take time for it
• 9:48
  to know what
• 9:48
  it is. Yeah. There's a
• 9:52
  point here
• 9:52
  that I think we
• 9:54
  underestimate. We often
• 9:54
  reject a tool before
• 9:56
  we've invested
• 9:56
  the small amount of
• 9:58
  time needed
• 9:58
  to understand what it
• 10:00
  can actually
• 10:00
  do for us. Sometimes
• 10:02
  efficiency requires a
• 10:02
  little inefficiency upfront. So
• 10:05
  then you
• 10:05
  left that
• 10:08
  position,
• 10:08
  right? And what
• 10:11
  was that
• 10:11
  like quitting your
• 10:13
  steady
• 10:13
  job and just
• 10:15
  floating in
• 10:15
  space? Well, it was
• 10:19
  a it's
• 10:19
  a it's a it's a very
• 10:22
  liberating uh feeling to
• 10:22
  stand and for me was
• 10:24
  very liberating
• 10:24
  to stand on my
• 10:27
  own legs and
• 10:27
  to have lots of opportunities and
• 10:30
  to just see
• 10:30
  what would happen there
• 10:32
  was
• 10:32
  very fun and
• 10:34
  interesting. And was
• 10:34
  that the first time?
• 10:36
  Sorry. Yeah,
• 10:36
  it was the
• 10:37
  first
• 10:37
  time that you
• 10:40
  became an
• 10:40
  entrepreneur. Yeah, it was.
• 10:41
  I think that
• 10:41
  distinction matters. Tore wasn't
• 10:43
  just
• 10:43
  changing jobs.
• 10:44
  He
• 10:44
  was changing
• 10:46
  professional
• 10:46
  identities from
• 10:48
  a field
• 10:48
  where he was already
• 10:50
  proven to
• 10:50
  one where he
• 10:53
  wasn't
• 10:53
  even sure how good
• 10:55
  he was yet.
• 10:55
  That takes a different kind
• 10:57
  of nerve. Most
• 10:57
  journalists that went into to
• 11:00
  being entrepreneurs, they
• 11:00
  do like freelance jobs
• 11:02
  and
• 11:02
  or into communication
• 11:05
  and so
• 11:05
  on. I completely shifted
• 11:07
  into uh
• 11:07
  development, web development instead.
• 11:09
  And I
• 11:09
  had done a few
• 11:13
  things that
• 11:13
  were successful, but I
• 11:16
  didn't
• 11:16
  know if what my
• 11:18
  level of coding
• 11:18
  was compared to real professional
• 11:21
  work. So
• 11:21
  I had to find some
• 11:25
  friends out in
• 11:25
  the world. So I find
• 11:28
  I found an
• 11:28
  office community with experienced people
• 11:30
  not within coding
• 11:30
  but within leadership coaching and
• 11:32
  stuff like
• 11:32
  that. and they needed
• 11:34
  like this
• 11:34
  IT guy to help
• 11:37
  them with
• 11:37
  their entrepreneurial ideas to
• 11:40
  get them
• 11:40
  into to life. I'm very
• 11:43
  curious when you
• 11:43
  mentioned coaches. What did you
• 11:46
  help them
• 11:46
  with? They were
• 11:47
  different
• 11:47
  levels of coaches.
• 11:49
  One were
• 11:49
  a coach within his
• 11:51
  coaching and
• 11:51
  one of them was
• 11:54
  into coaching
• 11:54
  of like in between leaders
• 11:57
  and the co-workers
• 11:57
  and that we did some
• 12:01
  testing systems. We
• 12:01
  had this idea that if
• 12:03
  you look
• 12:03
  at the Nordic welfare
• 12:07
  system and
• 12:07
  the Danish systems, they are
• 12:10
  based on a
• 12:10
  lot of trust and that
• 12:13
  makes a
• 12:13
  lot of decisions go really
• 12:15
  smooth. So we
• 12:15
  wanted to test how is
• 12:18
  the trust within
• 12:18
  your company within your co-workers
• 12:22
  to or
• 12:22
  where could you optimize that.
• 12:25
  So we did
• 12:25
  some tests within that and
• 12:29
  I built
• 12:29
  a system for that. It's
• 12:31
  interesting uh today
• 12:31
  you can build a system
• 12:33
  like that in
• 12:33
  with program like lovable
• 12:35
  or a
• 12:35
  vibe coding program in
• 12:37
  an hour. Yeah.
• 12:37
  Right. It's amazing how things
• 12:41
  you can do
• 12:41
  with vibe coding. It
• 12:44
  really is
• 12:44
  amazing. Yeah.
• 12:45
  A
• 12:45
  DSL that
• 12:46
  like
• 12:46
  that can be put
• 12:48
  into effectiveness really
• 12:48
  fast. This is where the
• 12:51
  economics of experimentation
• 12:51
  have really changed. A small
• 12:53
  team can
• 12:53
  now build something
• 12:56
  surprisingly
• 12:56
  polished in a
• 12:58
  matter of
• 12:58
  days, which makes
• 13:01
  trying things
• 13:01
  much cheaper, but also
• 13:02
  makes it
• 13:02
  dangerously easy to
• 13:04
  fall in
• 13:04
  love with something
• 13:06
  before anybody
• 13:06
  has proven that they
• 13:09
  need it.
• 13:09
  I fell into this
• 13:11
  trap regularly
• 13:11
  when I started to
• 13:13
  build Peer
• 13:13
  Plaza. It's just so
• 13:15
  easy to tell
• 13:15
  the AI to do this
• 13:18
  and that
• 13:18
  and then it comes back
• 13:20
  to you and
• 13:20
  says, "Hey, would you like me
• 13:23
  to do this
• 13:24
  as well?" That's like candy to
• 13:25
  a baby. What
• 13:25
  was the title you had
• 13:28
  before you left
• 13:28
  your company? Before I left
• 13:31
  my company?
• 13:31
  Yeah. What was your
• 13:33
  title there? At
• 13:33
  Expo, I was a
• 13:35
  local
• 13:35
  editor. So, you
• 13:37
  went from
• 13:37
  local editor to developer.
• 13:39
  When did
• 13:39
  it feel okay for
• 13:43
  you to
• 13:43
  call yourself a developer?
• 13:46
  You know,
• 13:46
  a professional developer. when I
• 13:49
  had made my
• 13:49
  first systems that
• 13:51
  were
• 13:51
  put into use
• 13:53
  and gave
• 13:53
  real value to the
• 13:57
  customers and
• 13:57
  the people using it. Do
• 13:59
  you remember that
• 14:00
  moment? Yeah, that was really
• 14:02
  good. Yeah.
• 14:02
  And those some
• 14:04
  of
• 14:04
  those systems are
• 14:06
  still in
• 14:06
  use. That's really nice.
• 14:08
  That is
• 14:08
  interesting about the program is
• 14:10
  that you build
• 14:10
  something and then it's
• 14:12
  as you
• 14:12
  create something
• 14:14
  from
• 14:14
  scratch really and
• 14:16
  then and
• 14:16
  build it into to
• 14:18
  how you
• 14:18
  think it will be
• 14:21
  used and
• 14:21
  then when it creates
• 14:23
  value then
• 14:23
  it's like you really like
• 14:25
  that. Yeah. I'm
• 14:26
  just thinking if we think
• 14:28
  about the lean
• 14:28
  startup the idea behind lean
• 14:32
  the lean startup
• 14:32
  is that you build just
• 14:34
  you know an
• 14:34
  MVP and you kind of
• 14:38
  let the
• 14:38
  customers decide what features they
• 14:42
  need. Today it's
• 14:42
  so quick and easy to
• 14:46
  build Do you
• 14:46
  find that you get a
• 14:49
  lot of
• 14:49
  scope creep because of
• 14:51
  that? that's
• 14:51
  definitely something that
• 14:53
  can
• 14:53
  happen very fast.
• 14:56
  For instance, if
• 14:56
  you have both a front
• 14:58
  end and
• 14:58
  a back end
• 15:00
  divided, then
• 15:00
  it's very easy for
• 15:03
  the front
• 15:03
  end to build something that
• 15:06
  goes beyond the
• 15:06
  scope and then back end might
• 15:09
  not be ready
• 15:09
  to support that. But it's
• 15:11
  not a
• 15:11
  big problem. I think it's
• 15:14
  something that can
• 15:14
  be adjusted and uh it's
• 15:16
  kind of a
• 15:16
  positive problem if you solve
• 15:18
  it correctly. in
• 15:18
  a big company you can
• 15:21
  have all
• 15:21
  kinds of people now doing
• 15:24
  coding and with
• 15:24
  vibe coding and the interesting
• 15:27
  thing is what
• 15:27
  you want to do with
• 15:29
  that journalists they
• 15:29
  vibe code themselves into something
• 15:32
  that's really
• 15:32
  useful should that I
• 15:34
  think you're
• 15:34
  talking about that the
• 15:36
  next market
• 15:36
  aren't you that market
• 15:38
  of everybody's
• 15:38
  building all these
• 15:40
  applications some
• 15:40
  of them can be
• 15:41
  useful for
• 15:41
  some other people
• 15:43
  how
• 15:43
  do we share
• 15:45
  that and
• 15:45
  how do we monetize
• 15:48
  that do
• 15:48
  you have an answer for
• 15:51
  that it could
• 15:51
  be treat it
• 15:52
  if
• 15:52
  you're within a
• 15:54
  big company, you
• 15:54
  could treat that as
• 15:55
  small
• 15:55
  MVPs like that and
• 15:58
  but you should
• 15:58
  I think perhaps put a
• 16:00
  time scale on
• 16:00
  it or time box and
• 16:04
  say that this
• 16:04
  should not last longer than
• 16:07
  this and then
• 16:07
  build something around it. But
• 16:10
  if you have
• 16:10
  people vibe coding useful things,
• 16:12
  then you
• 16:12
  have a proven concept
• 16:14
  that can
• 16:14
  be expanded upon. But it
• 16:17
  you should not
• 16:18
  I think keep them too
• 16:20
  long because they
• 16:20
  will be difficult to
• 16:22
  maintain and
• 16:22
  to build a service around
• 16:26
  and what if
• 16:26
  that people what if that
• 16:27
  person that
• 16:28
  built it is going
• 16:30
  to leave
• 16:30
  the company what do
• 16:32
  you do
• 16:32
  then so it's not uh
• 16:34
  scalable and long-term
• 16:34
  friendly but it's very useful
• 16:36
  for to for
• 16:36
  discovery phases I'm curious about
• 16:40
  this you don't
• 16:40
  believe that somebody could build
• 16:42
  something in
• 16:42
  vibe coding find out
• 16:45
  that 100
• 16:45
  a thousand people think
• 16:47
  that it's
• 16:47
  valuable for them and
• 16:48
  then you
• 16:48
  know that one out
• 16:51
  of a hundred
• 16:52
  gets commercialized that you don't
• 16:55
  find that
• 16:55
  to be a way of
• 16:58
  monetizing or commercializing.
• 16:58
  Oh yeah. Yes. But
• 17:01
  sometimes it
• 17:01
  could be very good
• 17:04
  to just like
• 17:04
  vibe code hunters
• 17:06
  and
• 17:06
  then get one
• 17:08
  really useful out
• 17:08
  of it if you close
• 17:09
  the others really
• 17:09
  fast. Just don't keep developing
• 17:11
  on something that
• 17:11
  hasn't received an audience yet.
• 17:15
  Of course,
• 17:15
  writing. So if it
• 17:17
  has proven
• 17:17
  its value, then you
• 17:19
  should decide
• 17:19
  what to
• 17:20
  do
• 17:20
  with it. And
• 17:22
  if it's dependent
• 17:22
  upon one person and it's
• 17:24
  not really
• 17:24
  scalable, then that's not the
• 17:27
  long-term solution. Then
• 17:27
  you should build something real
• 17:29
  around it.
• 17:29
  Makes sense. When you
• 17:31
  say time
• 17:31
  boxing it, are you
• 17:32
  thinking a
• 17:32
  day or a
• 17:33
  week?
• 17:33
  A week is
• 17:35
  perfectly okay
• 17:35
  for us. I think it
• 17:38
  could even be
• 17:38
  two weeks sometimes. Doesn't really matter.
• 17:40
  Yeah. It's But
• 17:40
  it's interesting because in a
• 17:42
  week you
• 17:42
  can have a pretty
• 17:44
  professional product.
• 17:44
  Yeah. Right? Depending on,
• 17:46
  you know,
• 17:46
  we're not talking about
• 17:48
  something that
• 17:48
  is enterprise. We're
• 17:50
  talking
• 17:50
  about something that's
• 17:52
  useful in
• 17:52
  a team or, you
• 17:54
  know, small
• 17:54
  company, right? So,
• 17:57
  what would
• 17:57
  have happened if you
• 18:01
  had failed
• 18:01
  your first year? What
• 18:03
  do you
• 18:03
  think? M
• 18:04
  then
• 18:04
  uh then I
• 18:07
  would focus more
• 18:07
  on journalism again I think
• 18:09
  because I
• 18:09
  had proven myself
• 18:12
  in
• 18:12
  that
• 18:14
  field.
• 18:14
  Yeah I was
• 18:19
  but when I
• 18:19
  left prove myself within journalism
• 18:20
  so I
• 18:20
  could always go back to
• 18:23
  Do you think
• 18:23
  it would have been something
• 18:25
  that you would
• 18:25
  think okay I tried this
• 18:27
  I don't mind
• 18:27
  going back to
• 18:27
  journalism
• 18:27
  or do you
• 18:28
  feel like
• 18:28
  maybe that ship had
• 18:29
  sailed? Uh
• 18:29
  no, not really. I don't
• 18:31
  know. I had
• 18:31
  when uh I decided back
• 18:34
  in high
• 18:34
  school that I would focus
• 18:38
  on journalism, but
• 18:38
  I really had other options.
• 18:39
  I was very
• 18:39
  interested in physics and mathematics
• 18:43
  and programming and
• 18:43
  I didn't really know what
• 18:45
  to decide upon.
• 18:45
  And then some from some
• 18:48
  person from the
• 18:48
  Danish school of journalism
• 18:51
  did a
• 18:51
  talk about how wonderful
• 18:54
  it was
• 18:54
  to be a journalist
• 18:56
  and I
• 18:56
  decided, okay, I'm going
• 18:58
  to go
• 18:58
  that way. But I
• 19:00
  always had
• 19:00
  this feeling that I might
• 19:02
  want to do
• 19:02
  something more with the
• 19:04
  with the
• 19:04
  technical part and I knew
• 19:06
  I had some
• 19:06
  uh abilities there. Do you
• 19:09
  think if it
• 19:09
  hadn't worked out it
• 19:11
  might have
• 19:11
  broken you a little
• 19:14
  bit? Yes, of
• 19:14
  course. Because I liked
• 19:16
  it.
• 19:16
  So uh that would
• 19:19
  be that would
• 19:19
  have that would be a
• 19:21
  sad but
• 19:21
  mendable. Yeah, of course. But
• 19:24
  mendable. Yeah, it
• 19:24
  was really interesting when I
• 19:26
  then got this
• 19:26
  job at this place
• 19:28
  at uh
• 19:28
  at first
• 19:30
  I
• 19:30
  was hired at
• 19:32
  Ekstra Bladet
• 19:32
  and then for the
• 19:34
  first time
• 19:34
  ever I was in a
• 19:37
  very big professional
• 19:37
  development team here with like 30
• 19:40
  people. I had
• 19:40
  been coding on my own professionally
• 19:44
  for two years
• 19:44
  but this was the first
• 19:48
  time I
• 19:48
  had to measure myself
• 19:50
  against people that
• 19:50
  had been lots of experience
• 19:53
  within that
• 19:53
  tech and an education within
• 19:54
  that field. So
• 19:54
  that was also interesting. I
• 19:58
  love this
• 19:58
  because there's a second
• 20:00
  test hidden
• 20:00
  in his story. You
• 20:02
  can succeed
• 20:02
  completely on your
• 20:06
  own
• 20:06
  and still wonder
• 20:08
  how you'll
• 20:08
  measure up when you
• 20:10
  finally walk
• 20:10
  into a room full
• 20:12
  of people
• 20:12
  who were actually trained
• 20:14
  to do
• 20:14
  this. Then you discover whether
• 20:16
  you really belong
• 20:16
  there. Ever wish you could
• 20:19
  just talk
• 20:19
  to someone who's been
• 20:21
  where you
• 20:21
  are. Not a
• 20:25
  chatbot,
• 20:25
  not ChatGPT or
• 20:27
  Gemini. A real
• 20:27
  human who gets it. That's
• 20:31
  Peer Plaza. Human
• 20:31
  help instantly. Whether you need
• 20:35
  a career coach,
• 20:36
  a leadership mentor, or someone
• 20:40
  to help
• 20:40
  you navigate a tough
• 20:43
  transition, Peer
• 20:43
  Plaza connects you with
• 20:45
  vetted professionals
• 20:45
  ready to help right
• 20:48
  now. Browse
• 20:48
  profiles, watch intro videos,
• 20:50
  and book
• 20:50
  a session just like
• 20:54
  that. Visit
• 20:54
  peerplaza.com because the best
• 20:57
  advice still
• 20:58
  comes from real
• 20:59
  people.
• 20:59
  When did you
• 21:03
  launch your
• 21:03
  business? In 2020, they
• 21:06
  put it
• 21:06
  up and at
• 21:09
  a
• 21:09
  position
• 21:18
  at Ekstra
• 21:18
  Bladet for a
• 21:19
  content
• 21:19
  automation
• 21:21
  manager
• 21:21
  to do automation
• 21:25
  within journalism and
• 21:25
  experimentation within AI. Mhm. So
• 21:27
  that was
• 21:27
  the kind of job
• 21:31
  that I
• 21:31
  really had expected
• 21:33
  that
• 21:33
  was going
• 21:35
  to
• 21:35
  be there and more
• 21:37
  of course. Yeah.
• 21:37
  What holds you back from going
• 21:39
  all out as
• 21:39
  either a solopreneur or building
• 21:41
  up a
• 21:41
  company? I continue to develop
• 21:44
  myself. For the
• 21:44
  last two years, I've been
• 21:48
  the product
• 21:48
  manager for journ
• 21:49
  AI
• 21:49
  at JP/Politikens Hus
• 21:52
  and this
• 21:52
  is like a continuous
• 21:54
  journey for
• 21:54
  me where I actually
• 21:56
  learn stuff
• 21:56
  every day and I get
• 22:00
  to develop myself
• 22:00
  and the team that
• 22:03
  I'm within
• 22:03
  and that keeps me
• 22:05
  happy. I
• 22:05
  would hate it to be
• 22:07
  in a place
• 22:07
  where I had to just
• 22:09
  do the
• 22:10
  same thing every day. Even
• 22:14
  though I might
• 22:14
  be very good at that for
• 22:16
  instance that you
• 22:16
  typically become if you work the
• 22:18
  same thing every
• 22:18
  day but I have to
• 22:19
  have this
• 22:19
  continuous development of myself and
• 22:22
  the surrounding that
• 22:22
  I'm in and I get that
• 22:24
  here and then
• 22:24
  of course at the
• 22:26
  same
• 22:26
  time with that
• 22:28
  I get
• 22:28
  stability so I don't
• 22:30
  have to worry
• 22:30
  about having a paycheck each
• 22:33
  month and I
• 22:33
  can continue to have my
• 22:36
  own company on
• 22:36
  the side and I can
• 22:38
  teach journalists
• 22:38
  in AI and the use
• 22:41
  of AI. So,
• 22:42
  right now I'm really having uh
• 22:45
  the best of
• 22:45
  all those cases of Okay.
• 22:49
  Sounds like you're
• 22:49
  really content where you are.
• 22:54
  I'm pushing a
• 22:54
  few buttons in order to
• 22:57
  pressure test that.
• 22:57
  Um but it
• 22:57
  sounds
• 22:57
  like you're
• 22:59
  really you
• 22:59
  have a kind of
• 23:01
  dream job, don't
• 23:01
  you? you get to do,
• 23:05
  you have
• 23:05
  a job and you have
• 23:07
  a side gig
• 23:08
  and both of them give
• 23:09
  you the nurturing
• 23:09
  uh that you want and your
• 23:13
  long vacations and
• 23:13
  everything else. Well, I can really
• 23:16
  relate uh spending
• 23:16
  my days with very smart
• 23:19
  leaders who I'm
• 23:19
  my job is to
• 23:21
  challenge
• 23:21
  them and
• 23:22
  at
• 23:22
  the same time
• 23:25
  I'm learning buckets
• 23:25
  [laughter] from them. So, I
• 23:31
  totally understand where
• 23:32
  you're coming from. It is
• 23:34
  so gratifying and
• 23:34
  satisfying to be around
• 23:36
  people like
• 23:36
  that. And that's,
• 23:38
  you
• 23:38
  know, it's what
• 23:40
  we do
• 23:40
  all day that is
• 23:43
  important. Not
• 23:43
  some goal at the
• 23:45
  end of
• 23:45
  the rainbow or even
• 23:47
  gold at the
• 23:47
  end of the rainbow.
• 23:50
  It's what
• 23:50
  we're doing
• 23:50
  now
• 23:50
  in
• 23:53
  the
• 23:53
  present. If I got
• 23:55
  stumbled upon some
• 23:55
  entrepreneur thing that would guarantee
• 23:57
  my bucketloads of
• 23:57
  money, then I will lose
• 23:59
  would lose
• 23:59
  all that. Then I
• 24:02
  would have
• 24:02
  to find people in
• 24:04
  my private
• 24:04
  life that I could
• 24:07
  get that. Well,
• 24:07
  I'm going to challenge I'm
• 24:09
  going to challenge
• 24:09
  that idea because I think
• 24:12
  that if for
• 24:12
  some reason you stumbled
• 24:15
  upon a
• 24:15
  unicorn or you built
• 24:16
  one, I
• 24:16
  can't imagine that they
• 24:18
  wouldn't be
• 24:18
  filled with very smart,
• 24:21
  interesting people.
• 24:21
  Oh, that's right. Right. Yeah.
• 24:26
  just not inside
• 24:26
  the company that you're in
• 24:27
  right now,
• 24:27
  but you'd probably
• 24:30
  be in
• 24:30
  charge of hiring
• 24:32
  those
• 24:32
  people. So, you
• 24:35
  probably would
• 24:35
  pick people that would
• 24:37
  even would
• 24:37
  be even more interesting
• 24:39
  to you.
• 24:39
  So, I'm not so
• 24:40
  sure that
• 24:40
  [laughter] but I and
• 24:43
  I and
• 24:43
  I think it's an
• 24:45
  interesting idea
• 24:45
  to look at that because
• 24:47
  perhaps the fear
• 24:47
  of losing what you have
• 24:49
  right now prevents
• 24:49
  you from getting maybe to
• 24:51
  another level.
• 24:52
  And I'm not saying
• 24:55
  at all
• 24:55
  that you should leave
• 24:57
  where you
• 24:57
  are right now because
• 25:00
  it sounds,
• 25:00
  you know, like the dream
• 25:02
  for most people.
• 25:02
  Well, I got to tell
• 25:03
  you, I
• 25:03
  speak to a lot
• 25:05
  of people
• 25:05
  who are looking for their
• 25:08
  future careers and
• 25:08
  so it's very nice to talk
• 25:10
  to somebody who
• 25:10
  is really enjoying where they
• 25:13
  are right
• 25:13
  now. So, I appreciate that.
• 25:16
  Is there anything
• 25:16
  that you want to tell
• 25:19
  a future
• 25:19
  entrepreneur that would help
• 25:22
  them I
• 25:22
  was thinking about that
• 25:26
  uh one thing
• 25:26
  also that made me
• 25:28
  quit my
• 25:28
  old job as an editor
• 25:32
  and that is
• 25:32
  that some sometimes I think I
• 25:34
  heard especially in
• 25:34
  the United States you are told
• 25:38
  that you should
• 25:38
  go with what flows with
• 25:40
  you that
• 25:40
  if you find your
• 25:43
  flow then
• 25:44
  everything will work right for
• 25:47
  you and I
• 25:47
  have tried to say okay
• 25:50
  is this something
• 25:50
  that I'm not really good
• 25:52
  at could
• 25:52
  I be better at this
• 25:56
  and uh that's
• 25:56
  what I've also done within
• 25:59
  journalism I have
• 25:59
  been in the beginning I
• 26:02
  was not very
• 26:02
  good at interviewing people or
• 26:05
  get people to
• 26:05
  open up and I was
• 26:08
  not very
• 26:08
  good at being at big
• 26:10
  random places where
• 26:10
  I had to socialize
• 26:12
  and find
• 26:12
  a lot of people find
• 26:15
  out who they
• 26:15
  were and so on but I
• 26:17
  was very good
• 26:17
  at it in the end
• 26:19
  so I have
• 26:20
  in so far in my life
• 26:23
  I have tried
• 26:23
  a lot to if there was something
• 26:27
  that I would
• 26:27
  like to be better at but was
• 26:29
  not really good
• 26:29
  at it then I would try
• 26:31
  to go in
• 26:31
  that direction instead of something
• 26:33
  that I already
• 26:33
  know how to do but this
• 26:36
  coding thing and
• 26:36
  technical stuff and mathematics and
• 26:37
  so on
• 26:38
  that has always been very
• 26:40
  easy for me
• 26:40
  so that would kind of
• 26:44
  have been
• 26:44
  the more secure way
• 26:46
  to focus
• 26:46
  on so when I had
• 26:49
  the opportunity to
• 26:49
  go that way at flex arms
• 26:53
  Then of course
• 26:53
  it also felt right. It felt
• 26:56
  that uh okay
• 26:56
  I can feel that
• 26:58
  flow
• 26:58
  thing that I'm now
• 27:01
  I'm flowing in
• 27:01
  the right direction and I'm
• 27:03
  getting pushed ahead
• 27:03
  because I this is feels
• 27:05
  right. But then
• 27:05
  in my current job
• 27:08
  all the
• 27:08
  things I've learned from
• 27:12
  the thing I
• 27:12
  would like to learn something
• 27:15
  more about that.
• 27:15
  I would like to learn
• 27:17
  how to interview
• 27:17
  people. I would like to
• 27:19
  get to
• 27:19
  know how to get people
• 27:21
  to open up.
• 27:21
  I would like to know
• 27:22
  how to uh
• 27:22
  to what to do with when
• 27:25
  I have to
• 27:25
  meet a lot of people in
• 27:29
  different places all
• 27:29
  that is very useful for me
• 27:31
  right now. So
• 27:31
  I think it's important that
• 27:34
  you don't always
• 27:34
  just go with the flow
• 27:37
  and but you
• 27:37
  sometime also challenge yourself and
• 27:39
  become good
• 27:39
  at things that uh is
• 27:42
  perhaps not that
• 27:42
  natural to you because
• 27:44
  if you
• 27:44
  combine that later you
• 27:46
  will get
• 27:46
  very much stronger from
• 27:49
  that. Sure.
• 27:49
  Sure. I think that's extremely
• 27:51
  relevant today because
• 27:51
  things are moving
• 27:53
  so
• 27:53
  fast. For instance,
• 27:56
  you know,
• 27:56
  we were talking about
• 27:58
  vibe coding,
• 27:58
  but who's really good
• 28:01
  at vibe coding?
• 28:01
  You know, you just
• 28:03
  have to
• 28:03
  throw yourself into
• 28:06
  it and
• 28:06
  find out how this
• 28:07
  works and
• 28:07
  see if it if it
• 28:09
  moves you. And
• 28:09
  at the same time, there is
• 28:12
  something called talent.
• 28:12
  Right. Not everybody even, you
• 28:14
  know, let's
• 28:14
  say you really
• 28:16
  love
• 28:16
  doing
• 28:16
  something
• 28:16
  and you work
• 28:19
  really hard
• 28:19
  at it. That doesn't
• 28:21
  necessarily mean
• 28:21
  that you have the
• 28:24
  talent to
• 28:24
  take it to a
• 28:26
  professional level.
• 28:26
  No, that's right. Yeah. So,
• 28:28
  how do you
• 28:28
  know am I
• 28:30
  going
• 28:30
  to be
• 28:32
  able
• 28:32
  to make this to
• 28:34
  a professional? You
• 28:34
  just have to try, right? And
• 28:37
  see Yeah.
• 28:37
  But also, if you have
• 28:38
  a talent, then
• 28:38
  it can get
• 28:40
  you
• 28:40
  so far. if
• 28:43
  you don't really
• 28:43
  work for it then it will
• 28:46
  not take you
• 28:46
  further than that. Totally agree. Yeah.
• 28:47
  So it's
• 28:47
  also about um mindset
• 28:49
  and uh
• 28:49
  also a
• 28:50
  thing
• 28:50
  about how to
• 28:53
  learn and
• 28:53
  how to gather information that
• 28:58
  you can use.
• 28:58
  And I think that's something
• 29:01
  that I
• 29:01
  really learned from my
• 29:04
  education at
• 29:04
  Roskilde University that was
• 29:07
  very much
• 29:07
  about how to you
• 29:10
  get into
• 29:10
  a new field, gather knowledge
• 29:14
  and use that
• 29:14
  usefully and not so much
• 29:16
  about having
• 29:16
  just like knowledge that
• 29:19
  they just
• 29:19
  read up and can
• 29:21
  explain So,
• 29:21
  this ability to learn
• 29:24
  new knowledge
• 29:24
  and learn how
• 29:25
  to
• 29:26
  apply it to
• 29:29
  the real world,
• 29:29
  that's something that's very useful
• 29:31
  right now.
• 29:31
  Absolutely. And you know, it's
• 29:33
  a shame
• 29:33
  that I noticed that
• 29:35
  a lot
• 29:35
  of young people today
• 29:37
  are 25
• 29:37
  years old before they even
• 29:39
  start working their
• 29:39
  first job. Okay. and so
• 29:42
  they've lost
• 29:42
  10 years of possible
• 29:45
  experience doing
• 29:45
  whatever, building up skills, understanding
• 29:47
  how to communicate
• 29:47
  with people, and it
• 29:51
  really sets
• 29:51
  back people. And
• 29:53
  you
• 29:53
  know, you it
• 29:55
  seems to
• 29:55
  me that you've been
• 29:58
  working for
• 29:58
  a long time. Um Yeah.
• 30:01
  Exactly. Exactly. And
• 30:01
  me too. And I'm so
• 30:05
  thankful for
• 30:05
  that. And you know, even
• 30:09
  though I
• 30:10
  spent the first 40 years
• 30:11
  of my
• 30:12
  life even more in music,
• 30:14
  that has
• 30:14
  given me an incredible background
• 30:18
  that I use
• 30:18
  today in so many different
• 30:21
  ways. Don't
• 30:21
  ask me how, but
• 30:23
  I know I
• 30:23
  do. I know that I'm
• 30:26
  different from
• 30:26
  other coaches in that respect.
• 30:27
  And I know
• 30:27
  that the work, the analysis
• 30:30
  that I
• 30:30
  learned um working with people
• 30:34
  at a
• 30:34
  very high level, all of
• 30:37
  that was so
• 30:37
  important. discipline. Um, you know,
• 30:39
  that was a
• 30:39
  big surprise for me
• 30:42
  when I
• 30:42
  came into the working
• 30:44
  world, so to
• 30:44
  speak, away from music where,
• 30:46
  you know,
• 30:46
  I found out that
• 30:48
  nobody had
• 30:48
  any discipline. I was shocked
• 30:50
  by that. Um,
• 30:50
  because, you know, I was
• 30:54
  so used
• 30:54
  to, you know, sitting in
• 30:57
  a practice room
• 30:57
  six hours a day, boom,
• 30:59
  boom, boom,
• 30:59
  every day, seven days a
• 31:02
  week. So
• 31:02
  it was you know I
• 31:05
  learned that I
• 31:05
  had received a lot from you
• 31:07
  know being a
• 31:07
  musician and I could apply
• 31:09
  so many
• 31:09
  of those skills to my
• 31:11
  work today. I
• 31:11
  can completely relate to
• 31:14
  playing music
• 31:14
  as well. I do
• 31:16
  play guitar and
• 31:16
  a bit of piano. You
• 31:18
  do you do
• 31:18
  everything. [laughter] My goodness.
• 31:19
  And
• 31:20
  probably all those
• 31:22
  things have
• 31:22
  contributed to who you
• 31:25
  are today,
• 31:25
  right? Definitely has. Yeah.
• 31:28
  Careers look
• 31:28
  much tidier in
• 31:30
  retrospect
• 31:30
  than they
• 31:36
  do while
• 31:36
  we're living them. Journalism,
• 31:38
  coding, music,
• 31:38
  teaching, management, we
• 31:42
  tend to
• 31:42
  put them all
• 31:44
  into separate
• 31:44
  boxes. But eventually the
• 31:47
  odd pieces
• 31:47
  start talking to each
• 31:49
  other and
• 31:49
  very often that strange
• 31:51
  combination becomes
• 31:52
  the thing that makes
• 31:54
  you valuable.
• 31:54
  So thank you
• 31:57
  very
• 31:57
  much Tore.
• 31:57
  It's
• 31:57
  been wonderful speaking
• 31:59
  with you.
• 31:59
  Great to talk to
• 32:01
  you.
• 32:01
  Mike, all the best
• 32:02
  brother. Thanks
• 32:02
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• 32:06
  and
• 32:06
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• 32:08
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• 32:08
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