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Asha, the conversation continues.... · The Horsehuman Connection Matrix

• 0:03
  This is the Horse Human Connection.
• 0:06
  A captivating podcast where we extend into the world of equine assisted learning.
• 0:11
  Horse Training.
• 0:12
  and gentleness in working with these magnificent creatures.
• 0:18
  Captivating stories from the leading professionals and ordinary people alike unravel novel ideas in being with horses.
• 0:26
  The horse human connection is an idea, a place, and a voice.
• 0:32
  The idea is to support the quiet revolution and recognize the intelligence and true nature of the horse.
• 0:40
  The place is a destination farm near the Umpqua Forest and River that slows down visitors and patrons enough to experience the shift.
• 0:49
  The Voice is this podcast.
• 0:52
  Welcome to today's episode.
• 1:04
  Hi, this is Ishi Abel with the Horse Human Connection Matrix.
• 1:08
  Today I have Asha with me again, and we had such a nice chat last time, and I enjoyed interviewing her so much, I wanted to have her back so we could talk about more stuff.
• 1:20
  Thanks so much for joining me again, Asha.
• 1:23
  Thank you for having me again, Ishi.
• 1:25
  I'm excited to be here and I have no idea where this conversation is going and I'm excited about that.
• 1:32
  Yeah, me too.
• 1:35
  So I was sharing with Asha a little bit before I hit the record button that I was contacted by a dancer who is autistic.
• 1:43
  Who's choreographer is working with horses and Liberty work in dance horse.
• 1:48
  And I am so excited to interview them soon, but today Asha and I had wanted to talk about dance because we have that in common and I wanted to ask her some questions about it.
• 1:58
  So it's always interesting how things just circle in and all the dots end up getting connected.
• 2:05
  It's there really are no coincidences.
• 2:08
  So, Asha, tell me about, tell me about your dance in New York, what kind of dance did you do?
• 2:14
  How old were you when you got there?
• 2:16
  What, what was it like?
• 2:19
  Well I was 18 when I moved to New York City, to Manhattan.
• 2:24
  I went, I went to New York University, so that was what drew me to New York City.
• 2:31
  I grew up dancing, so I was on the stage at, by the age of five, literally doing little tap recitals, but then at the age of six, I was in a musical called Carousel and along with all my dance that I did, both ballet and modern, I loved the theater as well.
• 2:53
  And I did all the Musicals that came through my little town of Fort wing, Indiana.
• 2:59
  We were very lucky because we had a brilliant director, theater director that was, he had an amazing way of, of bringing out the best in really amateur folk.
• 3:13
  And we also had a very gifted choreographer and they were very good friends and she knew how to make people that didn't know how to dance, Look like they could dance and, you know looking back, it was such an amazing education.
• 3:28
  You know, I would be in the wings, just watching every performance and, you know, all the scenes that I wasn't in.
• 3:34
  I just.
• 3:35
  just soaked it all up.
• 3:36
  So I think I was really it was instilled in me to have a high level of dedication for whatever I, whatever my endeavors were.
• 3:48
  And I saw an amazing amount of professionalism for, you know, that caliber of, you know, of theater.
• 3:57
  It was quite amazing looking back.
• 3:59
  I just feel so lucky.
• 4:01
  And we had a good dance studio as well.
• 4:06
  We did a lot of performing in ballet.
• 4:10
  We put on the Nutcracker every year.
• 4:11
  We did spring and fall performances.
• 4:14
  We had guest teachers come in.
• 4:16
  So I was just really granted so much in the way of just education and the arts and what it meant to be dedicated and what you love to do and to really follow your passion and Just the hours that we would put in.
• 4:33
  It wasn't, it wasn't a recital.
• 4:35
  It was just, it was a performance.
• 4:37
  You know, inviting us to be as professional as we possibly could be at the age of 13 or 15, or however old we were.
• 4:47
  It was amazing.
• 4:47
  And so when I went off to, when I was 16, I went off to a performing arts high school in Houston.
• 4:55
  And then I switched to another performing arts high school outside of Boston for my senior year of high school.
• 5:01
  And so again, I just got to immerse myself in dance.
• 5:05
  And that's when I really got more into the modern dance.
• 5:08
  And then I went off to New York university when I was 18 and we did ballet and modern both.
• 5:14
  And And I chose to school the arts.
• 5:17
  It's a sector of NYU because we were invited to do lots of our own choreography right away.
• 5:25
  There's other, other schools that would not let us really explore our own Craig choreographic talents until like the second or third year.
• 5:35
  And NYU was like, yeah, go for it right away.
• 5:38
  And so.
• 5:39
  We got to, you know, just pull our classmates into whatever choreographic interest we had and we got to be in each other's works.
• 5:46
  And that was just amazing.
• 5:48
  Right.
• 5:49
  That's a very different world than the choreography is very different than being a dancer.
• 5:55
  They're, they're really very different creative expressions.
• 5:59
  And just because you know, the vocabulary of dance doesn't mean that you have an eye for how it all comes together on stage.
• 6:06
  And yeah, interesting.
• 6:08
  Wow.
• 6:09
  So you had.
• 6:12
  What was the level of dedication before you went to the Performing Arts High School?
• 6:17
  Like, were you four times a week, five times a week?
• 6:21
  Pretty much every day because we had rehearsals all the time.
• 6:25
  So we were always rehearsing for the next performance.
• 6:29
  So as soon as the Nutcracker was over at the end of the holiday season, you know, in January, we're, we're getting ready for the spring concert.
• 6:38
  You know, so I just remember being there all the time.
• 6:41
  You know, we, I'd get off at school and we'd have, I'd have an early dinner and then I'd, I'd be at.
• 6:48
  My ballet class at four 30 in the evening, there'd be one or two classes or a class and a rehearsal.
• 6:55
  And I remember being there until nine o'clock and then going home and then, and then doing my homework.
• 7:02
  You know, so, so that's how it went.
• 7:05
  And then on the weekends we were at the studio at least one of those two days, if not both again, for.
• 7:13
  You know, I guess Friday nights were the night I didn't have, I didn't have You know, I wasn't at the dance studio unless we were, you know, on the stage that weekend.
• 7:23
  Wow.
• 7:23
  So that's, that was your life, school and, and dance.
• 7:26
  That's, that's it.
• 7:29
  Wow.
• 7:29
  Funny nights.
• 7:30
  I was a teenager.
• 7:31
  I went to the mall.
• 7:33
  That was like, that was like the one night I was kind of, you know, the normal kid.
• 7:37
  Right.
• 7:38
  Right.
• 7:39
  So when you, when we talked before and you said, That moving to New York gave you a different perspective with dancers and it sounded like the dancers that you were around were much more liberal than what you were used to, maybe liberal is the wrong word, that were more open to more curve.
• 7:59
  Esoteric things.
• 8:00
  And well, it was me moving from Fort Wayne, Indiana to New York City.
• 8:06
  You know, granted, I was outside of Boston that senior year of high school.
• 8:10
  That was really nice because I think that's where I started to really explore, you know, spirituality and more alternative viewpoints.
• 8:19
  You could say you know, it was, you know, a liberal school there.
• 8:22
  And so.
• 8:24
  And we were all artists, you know, so we, we had a lot of existential conversations then.
• 8:32
  I think that's where it really started.
• 8:34
  And that shaped part of who you are today.
• 8:37
  As well as the dance, because being a physical therapist, I mean, in dance, you use every muscle, you learn about all these things that can contract that are, I mean, are so different than if you're just on a hike or doing, you know, playing soccer or whatever.
• 8:52
  I think that's one of the things that dance gave me, was, you know, exploring my own vessel and trusting what my body is showing me or, you know, like learning to listen to it in a very intimate way.
• 9:09
  And that, you know, I'm going to say not all the dancers do that.
• 9:14
  They're not always trained that way.
• 9:16
  You know, if they're trained to be technicians or just depending on who their teachers are, I think beyond the dance world, I got into things like Alexander technique and Feldenkrais technique.
• 9:27
  And I remember just like, you know, rolling on the floor and breathing with people.
• 9:32
  And I think I mentioned that in the last in our last conversation, you know, when I was still in Fort Wayne, Indiana, I would go to.
• 9:40
  What was called the Fort Wayne dance collective in downtown Fort Wayne.
• 9:45
  And I would be like a 16 year old there in my unitard and, and I'd roll around on the floor with all these 30, year old women, you know, that were really exploring a whole nother way of being like, I just remember one woman like made this whole dance piece up about this, I can't hardly remember, but person that lived inside of her right leg.
• 10:11
  And there was this dialogue between her and the right leg.
• 10:15
  And it was just, you know, so off the wall, but like, I was just like, wow, this is so fascinating.
• 10:21
  And I just ate it up or getting into body mind centering and being able to like, You know, explore what does it feel like to move from my blood versus my bones versus my lymph system versus my muscles, like, and how it possess such different qualities.
• 10:40
  I, that's the kind of stuff that I was really into when I was 16 and 17, 18 years old.
• 10:47
  And I brought that into even my more traditional training at NYU, you know, the, you know, the ballet.
• 10:57
  Yeah, I can see how all of that, how all of that would integrate.
• 11:00
  I, I had some similar experiences.
• 11:04
  I was never such a a, a good dancer, but it was dance was in my life.
• 11:09
  And some of those things were in my life.
• 11:11
  And we had something called continuum.
• 11:14
  Which was like these micro movements and exploration of very small movements and going with a movement that would look like, I remember this woman demonstrating it and she was making these sounds and she was in this fetal position and she was moving around and, and she became a fetus.
• 11:33
  Like and that was just, it wasn't like she was trying to become a fetus or there was an idea of it, but as she began to move and explore, that's where it took her.
• 11:42
  And so, I can remember then her giving us assignments to practice and it's something akin to what you're talking about with the bone and the, and the blood.
• 11:52
  And it took me, it took me into a different place, a similar place that horses will take me, you know, that that zone of.
• 12:03
  You're in the world, but you're like in some kind of a meditative state.
• 12:06
  Like I'm sure the brain waves are different.
• 12:11
  Yeah.
• 12:11
  So you had all of those things and you're in New York.
• 12:16
  And then how long did you stay in New York?
• 12:19
  How long did you dance?
• 12:20
  And then when did horses arrive in your life?
• 12:23
  And was there, was there like a connection there?
• 12:28
  I was in New York city for.
• 12:30
  I guess about eight years.
• 12:33
  So after I finished my time at New York university I did the Laban Institute.
• 12:40
  Laban Bhartani Institute for Movement Studies.
• 12:45
  I did that certification program that was in New York City.
• 12:49
  Again, just another way to explore, you know, movement in the body.
• 12:53
  And and then I just did, I did some, you know, professional dance on the side and got into personal training and got into teaching yoga.
• 13:02
  Like, I just, I was that's how I made my living in New York City.
• 13:07
  And then I hiked the Appalachian trail from Georgia to Maine.
• 13:14
  Wow.
• 13:15
  And then, and then I with, you In, you know, in Florida briefly.
• 13:20
  And then I settled in Chattanooga, Tennessee and decided to go back to school and got my doctorate in physical therapy.
• 13:31
  So yeah.
• 13:32
  And then, and then I just started playing with bringing it all together.
• 13:36
  So I delved much more into yoga.
• 13:41
  I became a yoga educator.
• 13:42
  So I've spent many years.
• 13:45
  Teaching teachers how to be teachers, I guess doing, you know, getting hired in to do a lot of the anatomy and physiology for teacher training programs.
• 13:53
  But I just what's always thrilled me is just bringing it all together.
• 13:57
  I've never been 1 who likes to sit in 1 camp.
• 14:02
  With anything actually.
• 14:05
  You know, it's like, you know, in the yoga world, it's like a strong and Iyengar like, you know, opposite ends of the political spectrum basically in the yoga world.
• 14:15
  And I'm like, let's bring'em together, you know?
• 14:18
  And so like, that's what I've done.
• 14:19
  Like I just, I just mesh the two in how I've taught.
• 14:23
  You know, it's like, or Aranga in yin yoga, they're very opposite.
• 14:28
  It's like there's benefits to both.
• 14:30
  They balance each other beautifully.
• 14:32
  Let's do both.
• 14:33
  So that's, you know, and then if I bring in all the other like interesting stuff, all the, you know, all the mind body, you know, modalities and the Alexander and the filament Christ and the body mind centering and, you know, all the more, you know, the contact improvisation, you could bring in the continuum, like all that stuff and just blend it all together, depending on like what group I have in front of me, you know, what person I have in front of me, and just, you know, learning how to follow the lead of the group in order to lead, if that makes sense.
• 15:10
  And what we do with horses, you know, it's like, you know, you know, we're the human.
• 15:17
  So we say that we're the one leading, but I think we lead best when we know how to follow the horse too.
• 15:23
  Like, you know, every single time we offer something, what are they offering back, you know, and, and that's how you start to dance together.
• 15:33
  You know, I've always felt like to be really good.
• 15:37
  leader, you have to know how to follow.
• 15:42
  And it's like, if you have a group of people that you're teaching, that you're wanting to share yoga with that day, it's like, you've got to meet them where they're at.
• 15:49
  You've got to kind of feel the energy of the group and you teach from that space.
• 15:54
  To me, that's what lights me up.
• 15:56
  It's just, you know, I come in the room and I'm like, Oh, what are the, what's going to happen today?
• 16:00
  Like I might have an agenda, but.
• 16:02
  I've after a while, I just dropped the agenda because, you know, it's like the people that are going to show me what, what needs to be shared today, right?
• 16:11
  Right.
• 16:13
  Yeah.
• 16:13
  Yeah.
• 16:14
  I've definitely had that experience too.
• 16:17
  Wow.
• 16:17
  So then, when did you start riding?
• 16:21
  When did I start riding?
• 16:22
  Two 2006?
• 16:26
  Something like that?
• 16:26
  2007?
• 16:27
  It was really interesting, like I didn't, I actually was invited into the horse world through a lot of natural horsemanship.
• 16:35
  I'm sorry.
• 16:35
  I learned, I learned a lot on the ground before I really did a lot in the saddle.
• 16:41
  And then I just, I just fell in love because I just, I loved that.
• 16:45
  I love the way horses communicate.
• 16:48
  And I, you know, of course, you know, we love the energy that they offer, you know, that that that space that they invite us to come into if we're ready and if we're willing to listen and to kind of meet them in their, in their energy field, which I think is, I think is higher than ours overall.
• 17:09
  And then I just, you know, I just kept, kept, kept doing more and more.
• 17:12
  And then eventually my horse showed up and, and we went on a whole nother journey together.
• 17:20
  Do you still dance?
• 17:21
  When was the last time you danced?
• 17:25
  Oh, 2004 or five, six, something like that.
• 17:30
  It's kind of like my passions changed, you know you dance didn't light me up the same way anymore.
• 17:36
  And then I discovered horses.
• 17:39
  Yeah.
• 17:41
  Anyone who, you know, is in the horse world knows utterly how in consuming it is and always shapes and forms.
• 17:50
  They are very compelling.
• 17:52
  They are very compelling.
• 17:54
  So you went from teaching yoga and teaching people how to teach yoga and being immersed in all of that too, to writing, I mean, you have a profession as a physical therapist as well, but the, the writing now, When you started, you mentioned that you did Hunter Jumper, but when you first started writing, were you like headed that way?
• 18:19
  Or was it just like recreational?
• 18:22
  It was all just recreational and I just did a lot of play and liberty work.
• 18:27
  That's just what I was exposed to.
• 18:30
  It happened to be.
• 18:33
  What the teacher that I ended up with did a lot of and so I was I I that's that's what I did first You know and then start to build my confidence in the saddle and then I ended up basically just looking for a place closer To home where I could ride instead of I was traveling quite a bit I'm just because of who I connected up with and I was looking for something close and a couple people Recommended this one bar and I'm like, oh my gosh, it's 10 minutes from my house You And it ended up being 100 jumper barn, but that's not why I went.
• 19:08
  It was just, you know, a couple people recommended the quality of instruction there and it was close to my house.
• 19:14
  And I remember I walked in and, you know, the walked in for my lesson and the woman there said.
• 19:21
  Do you jump?
• 19:24
  And I'm like, why is she asking me that?
• 19:27
  And I had, I had, I had jumped one time at a friend's place in Georgia.
• 19:32
  I had done this workshop of combining kind of yoga and horses together.
• 19:40
  Just a lot of just mind body kind of exploratory work for people that weren't real comfortable with horses.
• 19:47
  And I led that retreat at my friend's house using, you know Her horses but during one of the breaks, you know, we hopped on, you know, and they let me jump over this, these little cross rails.
• 20:00
  And I just thought it was the most fun thing ever.
• 20:03
  So that was my first experience with, with, you know, with jumping was I was on a gated horse.
• 20:09
  You just had just had to sit there and point and he flew over.
• 20:13
  It was a lot of fun.
• 20:15
  So, so when I ended up with this place close to my house, you know I quickly learned like, oh, she asked.
• 20:21
  If I knew how to jump because it's a hunter jumper barn.
• 20:24
  Oh right.
• 20:25
  Right.
• 20:26
  She put me on the good old Dan who the joke is he's taught everyone in our county had had a ride.
• 20:34
  And he's still around.
• 20:35
  Actually, he's still, he's still do it.
• 20:38
  He's still packing little kids.
• 20:39
  He doesn't do the, but he's still, he's still doing it anyway.
• 20:44
  So, yeah.
• 20:45
  So I had my first jumping lesson that day and, and I was hooked.
• 20:50
  I was just like, this is amazing.
• 20:53
  I think what I love most about it is not so much the jumping, but like everything that you do in between the jumps to set yourself up for a successful jump.
• 21:04
  That's what I love.
• 21:07
  You know, just, you know, there's different perspectives on the hunter jumper world, and sometimes it gets a bad rap and I know why.
• 21:14
  But for me, it was always about like with my horse, it was like, what do you want to do together?
• 21:20
  You know?
• 21:21
  And he liked to jump.
• 21:22
  He actually liked to show he would light up.
• 21:25
  I could feel body lift underneath me when I'd walk into the show ring.
• 21:30
  Like he was all about it.
• 21:33
  And that was the main reason I showed it was because he was good at it.
• 21:36
  James wanted to.
• 21:37
  And was good at it.
• 21:38
  Yeah.
• 21:39
  He was good at it.
• 21:40
  Yeah.
• 21:40
  You know, he was a pretty steady mount for a Thoroughbred, you know.
• 21:45
  So, can I back up and ask you to define a few things?
• 21:49
  What, what do you call natural horsemanship?
• 21:53
  And can you talk a little bit about Liberty work as well and what that looked like when you were doing it?
• 21:59
  Sure.
• 22:00
  Well, I really can't define natural horsemanship because it was only what I was introduced to way back when I knew anything really about horses.
• 22:12
  So I don't think that I'm really one to express, you know, like I have my ideas around it.
• 22:18
  But I also think that there's a lot of things that.
• 22:21
  Are considered natural horsemanship that I probably wouldn't agree with.
• 22:26
  There's a lot of thing, beautiful things that people do with horses that doesn't get to be put in that camp.
• 22:31
  So, you know, I think it's a, it's a loose term.
• 22:34
  That's it's used a lot.
• 22:36
  But my experience was, you know, just all the groundwork we did and really connecting to the horse and learning to read the horse's body language and, you know, really learning what are they thinking and feeling and.
• 22:52
  You know, giving them time and space to like process something before they do something at Liberty or before they are invited to work with an obstacle.
• 23:03
  And we had like a whole obstacle course out there.
• 23:06
  So, you know, that's, that's what I remember is just like I've always really respected them as sentient beings that can choose to partner with us, you know, and I've always loved that piece.
• 23:21
  I wasn't just thrown on a horse and learn how to, you know, to ride.
• 23:25
  I had that whole other piece first, which I think was, you know, looking back was, you know, a nice gift.
• 23:32
  Like I didn't seek it out.
• 23:34
  It's just what fell into my lap.
• 23:39
  That's wonderful.
• 23:40
  That's really beautiful.
• 23:41
  So the Liberty work, it sounds like some of what you were doing was without halters or lead ropes, taking horses through obstacles.
• 23:53
  at different paces is that so learning how to regulate my own energy create a shift in the horse right now so you lift your energy up you're going to get a you know a horse that's more alive right or if you you know you calm your energy down you get you know like just playing with that energy and for me it was like You know, like it was a whole new world, right?
• 24:17
  The horse world is, you know, like the weather, right?
• 24:21
  But I am, I had so much training with dance and being in my body that in some ways it was a very easy transition.
• 24:29
  Like I picked things up really quickly.
• 24:32
  Like I, I understood, Oh, you know, influencing my body is influences the horse.
• 24:39
  Like, it's like, Oh, I get that.
• 24:41
  Oh, or even, you know, under saddle, you know, I understood things that my body wasn't quite capable of doing yet because I wasn't skilled as a rider yet.
• 24:54
  But it's like, Oh, I understand like shifting, you know, your sitting bones is going to have an influence on the horse.
• 24:59
  I get that, you know, you know, those subtleties that a green rider can't necessarily do.
• 25:06
  It's like, it was frustrating because mentally and emotionally I got it.
• 25:10
  Like even On a, even in my body, I, I got it.
• 25:14
  I just.
• 25:14
  The proprioception and the isolations that are required for AIDS were already a language that you spoke.
• 25:22
  It was just honing the skills for being on a horse because you already had all the athleticism and all the, the neuro pathways and the knowledge from your brain to your body.
• 25:31
  Yeah, that's a really, you said it better than I did.
• 25:34
  Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to share.
• 25:37
  Yeah.
• 25:39
  So there is like there is this really, I'm, I'm able to verbalize it because I experienced it too.
• 25:45
  You know, I was never been the level of dancer that you are or the level of rider that you are, but because I've done both, I understand the, the jump, the you know, how all, how all those things build the skill sets build to, to when you're on the horse and the relationship thing and the being in your body it makes perfect sense.
• 26:09
  I think the most challenging piece, I think with being under saddle for me, what was learning how to, how to feel my own body and feel this other body underneath me, like that was new.
• 26:26
  Like, you know, I mean, I didn't do a lot of like, you know, partner work in, in dance.
• 26:33
  And so just feeling this, you know, thousand pound animal underneath me and having to interpret all that at the same time, feeling my own body and how to bring the two together.
• 26:45
  Like that was a whole new experience.
• 26:49
  You know, I think it's magical when it does come together.
• 26:52
  I've only had a few moments like that, but where, and I had a trainer who helped me a lot by saying, find your collective center.
• 27:02
  And, you know, when there was that and lightness in the rain and, and I could feel the horse like come up and join me and that we were together like only for a few moments, but it's such a beautiful, beautiful thing.
• 27:16
  It's amazing how much work and effort we put into the horse world to have those few moments.
• 27:22
  Right.
• 27:23
  You know, I've had lots of amazing moments with, with my horse, you know, it's, we have a partnership, right?
• 27:30
  You know, you've been riding the same horse for, you know, over a decade.
• 27:33
  There's bound to have some, you're bound to have some special moments, but actually the, the ride that stands out the most.
• 27:41
  It was actually on my friend's thoroughbred mare, not my own horse.
• 27:46
  Tell me, tell me more.
• 27:47
  I want to hear all about it.
• 27:49
  I, I rode her a lot for a while and I got, I was just there one early summer morning and the barn was really quiet.
• 27:58
  There was, you know, we made a couple of workers around, but you know, it was quiet.
• 28:02
  And I just tacked her up and got ready like I usually did.
• 28:05
  And we went into the ring and, you know, she, she was, she was trained by a really, really good writer.
• 28:14
  But she had the most amazing rhythm.
• 28:16
  Like she was the most rhythmical horse I've ever ridden.
• 28:21
  And we just, it just, I just went into a trance.
• 28:24
  It was just, it was most meditative experience on a horse I've ever had.
• 28:28
  Like, you know, a lot of the rides were beautiful with her, but there was just that one morning we were just in sync, like, you know, I just could hear the footfall, you know, on the canner and I could hear her breathing and, you know, and I could feel my body and it was just, everything was just.
• 28:48
  in sync.
• 28:48
  We were just flowing.
• 28:50
  And she, and I knew she felt it too because she just felt so relaxed and happy and it felt like she wanted it to go forever.
• 29:01
  You know, ears are forward and you know, she was just, it was just magical.
• 29:08
  It was just amazing.
• 29:10
  Sweet.
• 29:11
  Yeah, those are sweet, sweet memories.
• 29:13
  Very sweet memories.
• 29:15
  And horses do connect so much through rhythm.
• 29:20
  Yeah, which is another natural transition from dance, right?
• 29:24
  Because when you have a group of people in rhythm, dancing in rhythm, the horses understand that as well.
• 29:31
  Yeah, it flows both ways.
• 29:33
  Yeah, she was funny.
• 29:36
  Like, you know, she's, you know, she's third bred mare.
• 29:39
  So she had her opinions.
• 29:40
  And, you know, it's like, I was always like, well, let's walk and then we'll try and then we'll canter.
• 29:46
  And her mom didn't really trot that much.
• 29:49
  And so I was trotting her along and she's, and then she just broke into a canner on her own.
• 29:54
  And she goes, well, my mom and I do it this way.
• 29:58
  And I'm like, okay, I'm not going to argue with that.
• 30:02
  You know, you had a lovely canter.
• 30:04
  And no, and, and to go along with that, like not to have an agenda, not to be in charge, but to be, you know, not to get all like, Oh, this horse shouldn't do that unless I give it that, you know, that commands to go into a canter, but to be with the animal, not in opposition of it.
• 30:23
  Right.
• 30:23
  I'm like, well, I had no agenda, you know, I'm just gifted the ability to ride this, this beautiful horse for my friend and.
• 30:32
  You know, she's, you know, she was 15, 16 at the time.
• 30:37
  She just retired from jumping, like, like, why not let her lead?
• 30:41
  Like, she's not going anywhere.
• 30:43
  She just wanted to move into a nice little canter, you know, and she was showing me like, I felt like she was showing me what she does best, you know, it's like, you know, why trot?
• 30:54
  We can canter.
• 30:56
  I have a lovely canter, you know, okay, sweetheart.
• 31:03
  And that's what I mean, like that, that's actually, it's a little bit of an example of, you know, following in order to lead, you know, because I allowed her to canner and I didn't like reprimand her for it or bring her back to the trot.
• 31:18
  I just let her do it.
• 31:19
  You know, I was following her lead, but I was still leading.
• 31:24
  Like, I could have brought her back at any time.
• 31:26
  You know, it's not like I lost, you know, my connection with her at all.
• 31:31
  Right.
• 31:32
  That's exactly the kind of thing that I would love more people, you know, to fully understand, instead of having the dominance rule always in effect.
• 31:43
  And, you know, the, the, the.
• 31:44
  It's, you open up to so much beauty and connection when you can let go of those things.
• 31:52
  And I think that the horses are much more happy and willing to give back more when they have a voice more of the time, you know, it's like, you know, if I can give my horse a voice, you know, a lot of the time, then I feel like they're more likely to step up and take care of me in those moments when I might need a little support.
• 32:18
  Because I know it goes both ways.
• 32:22
  We talked before in the last interview about some of the energy work and how you came into that as well.
• 32:29
  Just trying to trying to think kind of where to go, where, where to go next with with some of my questions.
• 32:35
  Well, I think I've always kind of, you know, explored that, that energy piece.
• 32:43
  I think I really started to delve into that when I delved into looking at spirituality when I was 16, you know, things really I really started exploring at that time, but I, you know, in, in my work is a physical therapist.
• 33:00
  You know, I'd have like, you know, amazing success with most individuals, but then there would always be, you know, the more challenging or interesting case where, you know, normal physical therapy protocols or even.
• 33:16
  My intuition using dance and movement and everything that I've gathered in the movement world wasn't, you know, necessarily like quote fixing the issue, like I could definitely tame the chronic issue or give them exercises to kind of keep things at bay, but I'm like, There's a, there's another piece.
• 33:38
  And I, I knew there was another like deeper piece, like a psychosomatic piece.
• 33:42
  There's an emotional piece.
• 33:44
  There's like, you know, our bodies hold story, you know, every single cell in our body, you know, hold story.
• 33:51
  I, I believe not just from this lifetime, but other lifetimes.
• 33:55
  And so, you know, you can do all the physical stuff you want, but if, If the individual is holding on to that story, either consciously or unconsciously, then it, it, it may not shift all the way.
• 34:11
  That's what really got me into really delving into that.
• 34:16
  The energy piece in even just the last decade, it's like, I want more answers.
• 34:22
  I want more information.
• 34:23
  I want more tools to help people shift the story.
• 34:27
  More, more full healing.
• 34:30
  Exactly.
• 34:31
  And that, and that kind of just opened up the whole door with animals and animal communication as well.
• 34:38
  You know, the same thing with them as well.
• 34:41
  Although animals are usually a little easier.
• 34:43
  They don't hold on to their story as much.
• 34:47
  Horses, I think are a little bit more like people because it's so layered.
• 34:53
  Like people, I think that.
• 34:55
  Sometimes the horses it takes a little bit more time for them to process.
• 35:00
  Dogs and cats seem a little simpler.
• 35:03
  Yeah.
• 35:03
  I wonder with horses too, how much they pick up from their people, you know, like if it's still in our mind, what their injury is, is it then in their mind too, you know, as, as those connections are, are, are really deep.
• 35:19
  And I've, I've thought about that.
• 35:21
  It's actually a, such a great question.
• 35:24
  And I also wonder if it's because they're just.
• 35:27
  enmeshed in our history as well.
• 35:30
  I mean, they went to war with us.
• 35:32
  Like, like, I mean, I think they just, I think that they maybe have more lifetimes with us and they carry more story around us, people, you know And not always good ones, right, that, you know, as a healer, I have to help the horse unpack, you know, like, I could be dealing with some sort of physical trauma in their body.
• 35:56
  And it's like, ah, an Akashic record will pop in.
• 35:59
  They'll show me a scene from another lifetime.
• 36:02
  And, and that's when I started to realize, Oh, they're more like people, you know, they, they carry stuff more like people do, or I haven't really seen like other lifetimes with cats and dogs.
• 36:14
  I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I'm just saying, I don't think they hold on the same way.
• 36:19
  Doesn't seem to get stuck the same way.
• 36:21
  Yeah, exactly.
• 36:23
  You know, and I'm still exploring that, but that's been my experience so far.
• 36:27
  Well, horses do have the largest limbic system other than humans of land mammals.
• 36:33
  So they certainly have plenty of emotion to get stored.
• 36:38
  That makes sense.
• 36:39
  From a physiological standpoint.
• 36:41
  Yeah.
• 36:44
  Yeah.
• 36:45
  And definitely have the intertwined history.
• 36:47
  That's a big one.
• 36:48
  Yeah.
• 36:51
  What else?
• 36:51
  What's up with you today?
• 36:53
  What, what, what are you, like, not today as in like, today, but I mean today, December 5th.
• 37:03
  What's?
• 37:05
  What's what's present for you?
• 37:07
  What's present for me?
• 37:09
  Yeah.
• 37:10
  Just that I love animals so much.
• 37:14
  I want to help them so much.
• 37:16
  And sometimes I feel honestly that my heart is too big.
• 37:22
  And I don't mean that in an egotistical way at all.
• 37:25
  It's like, wow, it's just, it's hard to be on the planet sometimes.
• 37:30
  Yeah.
• 37:32
  It's like, how do I help these, these beautiful creatures, you know, these beautiful animals that haven't always had a voice, you know yeah.
• 37:42
  And that they, that they can carry some of the same trauma that people carry.
• 37:49
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 37:50
  And I know that with our pets and our domestic animals, that's so true, but my mind goes to wild horses, you know, there are so many wild horses that well, we really put them through it, you know, with our laws and our rules and our competing pastures, grazing land for cattle and all the politics that go into it and what becomes of them.
• 38:12
  And I think, I don't know that there are very many people that love horses that don't, feel some pull to want to do something about the plight of wild horses and horses that end up at rescues and to make shifts for them since we create so much of this trauma for them.
• 38:33
  It's heart wrenching.
• 38:35
  Remember my horse, I asked my horse about it once and he said something like, it's all part of the great plan, but I'm sure glad I'm not one of those, you know, like, you know, it's, it's big, it's.
• 38:49
  It's huge.
• 38:51
  And I, I haven't really connected with any of, you know, the wild horses, but I have worked a lot with, you know, other rescue animals and I've, I've worked with horses in rescues.
• 39:04
  You know, I've communicated with them done some healing work on, you know, like, Even just rescues from farms, you know, turkeys and sheep and cows.
• 39:16
  And, you know it's just, it's really interesting.
• 39:19
  And, you know, it's when we get into working with animals that have such trauma, same with people, it's like, you know, really having to hold my own field.
• 39:31
  You know, otherwise you can just get swept away in, in, in their immense pain and trauma that they've suffered.
• 39:39
  You know, and, you know, it's like when we think about holding space for someone, you know, it's like you have to meet in order to really help someone, you know, we, we have to, we can't go with them in their, in their, all their emotions.
• 39:56
  Right, like we can feel for them, but we have to kind of hold our center.
• 39:59
  Does that make sense?
• 40:02
  And I, and I find it a little more challenging with animals sometimes to do that because you know that.
• 40:10
  you know, they just, they just, they don't have a voice in the same way that sometimes people are able to have, you know, or choices the way people have.
• 40:20
  Exactly.
• 40:22
  Yeah.
• 40:24
  Yeah.
• 40:24
  They're not responsible, but they're also the most gracious.
• 40:28
  They're the most they're always so grateful, yeah, Of what can be done.
• 40:35
  Yeah, they're just so grateful.
• 40:38
  They're always just so happy I show up for one of them energetically they're just always so happy, you know, sometimes they don't know why I'm there and I have to explain it.
• 40:48
  Most of the time they do, but you know, you know, there's just, it's very rewarding work.
• 40:54
  Not always the easiest, but definitely rewarding.
• 40:59
  Yeah, really good stuff.
• 41:01
  How's Firefly doing?
• 41:04
  She's been hurting a little bit.
• 41:05
  She's had her blanket on and and she's, she's looking like, you know, here's another winner.
• 41:11
  But she's, she's hanging in there.
• 41:15
  The horse that wants to be ridden the most is the one that's retired that can't anymore.
• 41:19
  I thought it was really interesting what you said about like, you know, I guess Firefly, you know, would love to be ridden, but.
• 41:26
  Really can't anymore, you know?
• 41:29
  And I have felt the same way with James, like I retired him and he knows why, and he knows it's not really safe for me to be on his back anymore.
• 41:38
  And, you know, he misses it too.
• 41:40
  Like we, we think it's just us, you know, but you know, a horse that Like that was so much of our partnership was under saddle, you know, he enjoyed it.
• 41:51
  He enjoyed the work.
• 41:52
  He enjoyed the connection.
• 41:53
  He enjoyed the outings.
• 41:56
  And it's like, I don't think we always acknowledge that, you know, the horses, you know, they have to adjust to a life changed too.
• 42:03
  Oh, yeah, I've watched her change over the years and go from being the absolute lead mayor of many, many herds to being pushed around.
• 42:12
  And, you know, I have now I have to shut the gate to make sure she gets enough food.
• 42:16
  You know, I have to feed her separately.
• 42:18
  But we had it.
• 42:19
  We had a little bit of time last summer where, I felt strong enough to do, for me, they were sprints for her.
• 42:25
  It was just barely a trot, but I would hold the lead rope and we would run back and forth.
• 42:31
  Well, she would trot and I would run from the barn to the house and get in that rhythm.
• 42:36
  And, you know, we were talking about horses connecting with rhythm.
• 42:39
  I could get those moments with her running next to her, you know, and, and that's what I was satisfied with because that's what's available.
• 42:53
  I still play with that a little bit with James too.
• 42:55
  Like we, we will hit the dirt road and we will play with like, walk, trot, transitions, you know?
• 43:00
  Mm-hmm Because be connected.
• 43:01
  Mm-hmm Like he, my energy shift and he responds and it's so easy with him.
• 43:07
  but I get tired because, you know, he's, you know, he is he long-legged thoroughbred and like, you know, he's finding his nice little trot rhythm and I'm like all in.
• 43:19
  He's like, Oh, this is nice mom.
• 43:21
  Yeah.
• 43:22
  Yeah.
• 43:23
  Yeah.
• 43:23
  And then I've got Charlie who's, you know, has a few rides on him.
• 43:27
  And when we go horse hiking up, up the road across the street, he'll look at the ridge and want to go up there.
• 43:33
  What's up there.
• 43:33
  Let's go explore.
• 43:35
  And it's like, The only way that's happening is if you can carry, if you can carry me and then we're back in that loop of what's going to happen to my leg when it seizes up because his muscle just contracts from an old injury.
• 43:46
  Even though the vet has said, you know, he's fine to be ridden.
• 43:52
  I know, and he knows he, he, he's not ready for that or something has to happen first or I don't know, you know, anyways, I will contact you for that session and this is probably a good time to wrap up.
• 44:08
  Yeah.
• 44:09
  Yeah, this was a wonderful conversation issue.
• 44:12
  Thank you for making time for me to chat with you and record it for all the people that listen to the podcast.
• 44:19
  Just, I love how these experiences all come together.
• 44:24
  You know how the different things we do in our lives all culminate to just make life that much richer.
• 44:31
  And then when we find other people that have similar experiences, The way it gets to be shared is, is, I don't know, to me, it's just remarkable.
• 44:40
  And I'm so curious about these other people with the dance and the horses and the autism and what all that's going to be.
• 44:47
  So it's nice to lay some groundwork for that as well.
• 44:50
  Well, I love the web of people that you're building here with this podcast.
• 44:56
  The community is just wonderful.
• 44:59
  I love it.
• 45:00
  Yeah, I'm, I'm pretty excited about it too.
• 45:02
  All right, I'll talk to you soon.
• 45:04
  Okay.
• 45:05
  Bye.