Latest / The Rave Social Podcast / 59 Virality and Building a Brand That Lasts with Cassie Pannier

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59 Virality and Building a Brand That Lasts with Cassie Pannier · The Rave Social Podcast

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to the Rave Social Podcast.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Jaden, and today we have an incredible, incredible brand designer.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, I'm just gonna go ahead and say she's way more than that because she really understands like not just the visual side of things, but like what it really takes to build a whole brand.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: I've worked with Cassie, I've been friends with Cassie, I've hired her for my own projects.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: She's incredible.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: So we've got Cassie Pannier on the podcast today.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: She founded Gathery Creative to be a creative partner for founders that they wish they had earlier.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: In a space crowded with templates, trend cycles, and formula first branding.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: She leads with strategy to protect what makes the brand distinct.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: Cassie translates big ideas into clear, elevated brand systems that scale and open doors.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's always awkward hearing other people read about me.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it's funny too.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I feel like we read our bios and we're like, yeah, that's right.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: And then you hear it and you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: That's like, that's me.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: But we're just so excited to have you on today.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I'm excited to be here.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like just chatting with an old girlfriend.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: This is gonna be fun.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: So good.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: Today we're gonna talk about.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think we're gonna talk a little bit about like ver virality, building a brand, what that looks like on social media, just kind of all of those different things that really, I mean, honestly, that's what builds a brand is all the different pieces of how you're showing up, you're marketing, everything.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I think let's start there.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: So, my first question for you is what are your true feelings on virality?
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: Is it something that you think people should put more energy into?
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: Or are you like, that's so overdone?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: Let's just literally stop with that word.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we're starting with the hard hitters.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think it is such a ridiculous thought that you have to always be chasing posts that like quote unquote pop off to like build a presence online because we see so many other like founders, especially in this like building and public era, popping off online and talking about like how just like posting like three times a day is like the way to become viral and the way to build your brand.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing is, is it's just such a trap because once you like get one viral post, all of a sudden you're just gonna be chasing that for the rest of entirety, and it's just not sustainable.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and and the other thing is is like just because it pops off doesn't mean that it's going to do anything for your business because if it like goes viral to the wrong people, you don't necessarily get like that brand devotion that you're wanting, you just get a lot of like noise, and you may get like an initial spike, but like of like a bunch of new eyeballs, but then you again like you feel that pressure to recreate that over and over again.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's not sustainable.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: I would rather have zero viral posts, but then every single post paints like that same really clear picture of who you are, who you serve, and how you serve them and why they should choose you over anyone else.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you have that consistency, like you are going to create more impact than just like one viral post here and there.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I completely agree with you.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I think virality chasing specifically does two things.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: One, it cheapens your brand because the content that goes viral is not content with depth, it's always that like surface level content, it's always content that can apply to a mass broad amount of people, which is not that's not who you're serving.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: You're serving a much more niche version of whatever that is.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think it really can cheapen your brand if you continue to chase virality.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: There's if a post goes viral, okay, great, but this is the other side of that.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: Then you have all of these people that you have to nurture.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: You then have to like teach them about your brand, about what you do, about why it's important to eventually get them to convert and work with you in whatever level you want.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think people miss those two things.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like they end up cheapening their brand or they don't properly nurture and convert those people that they got from maybe something that did go viral.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally agreed.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because like when you think about it, and I I hate using like the funnel, but like when you think about it in a funnel, like a viral post is that top of funnel people, and not all of those people are gonna make it to that bottom of funnel because that you're catching like when you're getting a viral post, it's usually something that's like based on a trend.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like that really wide net of like it's not your niche people at all.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: So then say you do have a viral post, which is fine, but then you have to have an even amount of like you know, middle of funnel and bottom of funnel posts to in order to get those people who were maybe within your target audience to like get to the bottom of that funnel to a place where they're like warmed up and nurtured and ready to buy from you.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's where like that strategy and that brand comes in play so that you can actually turn people into like raving fans of your brand and not just like more eyeballs.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think people don't realize that that like takes time to because it can feel like oh, I went viral, or like maybe you didn't even go viral, but you just had a post like do pretty well or something like that.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: It can feel like okay, well, where's the money?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: But it like it really can take time, and depending on your offer and how high ticket it is, like that could take three to six months.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's not something that just happens overnight.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um so yeah, it's important to keep that in mind.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: My question for you would be how can how can people do that?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how can you show up in your business?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's on social media, maybe it's your website, whatever it is, encompassing your brand to continue to do that.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how can people show up to continue to reach, nurture, and convert like new people consistently into their business?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, the biggest thing is gonna be consistency and not like trying to be the same as everyone else and really building that brand recognition because honestly, you can buy attention so easily.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can attention is like equals views and you know, followers and likes and like posts that go viral, but then like devotion is is what brings in the actual dollars that you need to stay in business.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that devotion is comes from the people who are staying, they're trusting you, they're referring you, they're buying from you without like needing you needing to prove yourself over and over again to them.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that is all like built within the brand.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, like that devotion and that obsession is like for a service-based brand, for example, could look like you know, people who are showing up in your DMs saying, like, oh my gosh, I feel like you put that you wrote this post directly to me, like you are reading my mind.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: And people who like have a real brand, they are the people they get those those sorts of comments and DMs all the time because they know their target audience, like the back of their hand, and they can write specifically to them, or they can create um, you know, visuals that directly feel like other brands that they already like purchase from and already trust and invest in.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like sta showing up consistently day after day, and not like getting stuck in that like Canva land where they like are trying out a new template or like they see Tonic Sight Shop drop a new set of templates and they're like, Oh my gosh, I have to have these ones, and then all of a sudden they look like a completely different brand online.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, all of that consistency builds that trust and devotion, and um, and and and consistency isn't sameness either.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's the big misconception is that you show up consistently as yourself, and you're not trying to be the same as everyone around you just because you see it work for someone else.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, is honestly such a trap.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like that connects back to that word you said, like devotion.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: And it it's about being devoted to your own brand, too.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like, if you're devoted to your own brand, that's what's gonna make people devoted to you because you're not doing that.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: You're not like template switching and just trying the next hack and trying the next trend and like changing your messaging to be like whatever's kind of got going viral, like at the time because you are so like devoted to your brand and you know it in your core what it is.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: And like getting stuck in like doing like the trend cycles and stuff, you may you're not you're watering down your brand by trying to do those.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, I think it's okay to do a trend every once in a while if it's like the right fit for your brand.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're filtering, filtering it through like your own personal brand strategy.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: But I feel like it's a it's a one trap that people get stuck in because a lot of times when you're posting just trends all the time, you start just looking like everybody else and you're not standing out in your own way.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I mean, I think the biggest way to make sure that you are showing up consistently, um, but also not being the same as everyone else is like repeating your point of view always kind of in in your own language.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: So um I'm gonna use my brand for example, but like phrases that I repeat all the time is talking about like direction first and then design.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so that your design actually carries your brand values and trust within it.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um and like I say your brand should hold the weight of your vision so that you don't always have to like explain yourself over and over again.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: And when I say brand, I don't mean just visuals.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Again, we're talking about like the messaging, the content you put out, the collaborations that you have.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: All of that has like one common through line that like feels consistent across all of those different touch points.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so like that is my specific point of view that I repeat repeat in almost every single piece of content so that I become known for it.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of times people like feel like they're just repeating themselves because they're they are, but it's almost like you're like boring yourself by talking about the same things over and over and over again.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: But you really just need to stick to that same point of view and message um so that it becomes like something that your audience can repeat back to you.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's gonna become boring to you, probably, but it's not boring to them, it's just like ingraining it in their minds so that you become known for it.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it's it's so funny when clients come to me and say, like, I just feel boring or I feel like I'm repeating myself.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, good, congratulations! Like, that's exactly what you should be doing.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: And the only reason that it's like boring and feels repetitive to you is because you're the one looking at it every day.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: But the truth is, is your audience like really isn't they're not paying that much attention.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: They don't even realize it, you know?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: So really you're just kind of conditioning them to match like you how your brand looks with the words that you say, with yourself.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like you're just building those connections, and like it sounds silly, but you're you're basically forming little like neuro connections in their mind of like when I see this, I know it's her because and she says this.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like, that's what it's doing in your mind, in their minds.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think it's actually kind of like it's funny and it's a little selfish to be like, well, it's boring and repetitive to me.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, yeah, but your audience needs you to do that.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: So like don't make it about you anymore.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's seriously, it is about them and helping them understand how you can help them.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that goes along with like, you know, talking about like the specific process that you take them through, like when they know exactly what to expect, both like what you what result you're gonna give them, whether or not they're like they fit as like a per potential client of yours, um, all of that needs to be like repeated in a way that they'll understand.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, like I think that a lot of service providers too can kind of get stuck in like their own language.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like when you say things like, you know, your analytics and I I don't know, whatever sort of words that you use, like your jargon within your industry, like it's taking stepping back and understanding how your your audience is receiving that and maybe I I hate to say it, but like dumbing it down a little bit.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think um is super important, but then repeating that within your content as well so that they know exactly what to expect by the time they inquire with you, they're like already know pretty much sold on your process and your transformation, what you're going to bring to the table.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, a hundred percent.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but brands always use words that are familiar to them because you are the expert.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like you know social media, you know, brand design, you know all of these things because you are the expert.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: And this is where people get tricked too, because they're like, it's so simple to me and it's so obvious to me that I don't even know how to put it in light of my clients.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it really does take some time of refining that and really thinking about what they say.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: But there are some easy ways to identify what they're saying.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: One, listen to them, like read your intake forms, read Reddit forms, read Facebook pages, read, like you need to read what they are saying and listen to what they are saying, and then use those words in your content.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: For example, people come to me all the time and they're like, I want more followers.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, You want more money.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like, because in your mind, you think followers equals more business, like bigger business, more follow more followers equals bigger business, more money.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: So ultimately, you want more money.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: So then when I'm creating content and talking to my clients, I have to say, if you want to make more money online, here's what we need to do.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: And it may include getting new followers, but ultimately, like you have to speak the language that they don't know that they're speaking or that they literally are speaking.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: So saying things like, you don't want more followers, what if you could make 10k with the followers you already have?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's just important to like use what they're saying instead of using your own jargon.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, whatever you came up with in your head that you think is going.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that's again, like going back to the brand strategy, like understanding your audience to a T, like to the point where you know what they're thinking and what they're experiencing on the day-to-day, so that when you when it comes time to like create content for them, it feels like you're in their head and you are are making connections that they don't even know that are there, you know?
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: Just like you said, like the followers versus money thing.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's so many things that we just assume as a business that other people understand.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it's when you can break it down and really understand your audience in that deep way, it's it makes such a difference in your content.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and this is like a side tangent, but like analogies are really good for this.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like, if you can connect things that happen in your business to things that are happening in their lives, it's so useful.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like, one that I'm thinking of that does like designers a lot of times talk about like design, and uh their clients may not even really know or care about that.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like, maybe you're talking about uh building a visual identity, and they're like, Okay, like I don't even know what a visual identity means.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: But can you connect that to an experience that they have?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like every time they walk into a store, they know exactly what where Poppy is because it's so obvious, like what their brand and what their colors are, or like I don't know, just how can you connect it to what their experience is so that they understand?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's a visual identity.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: I do want that because I want to be recognizable.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's just so useful.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: And using the same analogies over and over again, too.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I always like to use the analogy because people don't understand what brand strategy is.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I have to paint the picture.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: When people think of branding, they think about logos and colors and fonts for the most part.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I explain like the brand strategy piece, I explain it like you're building a house and you jump to like the decorating piece because that's the exciting and fun part.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's what feels tangible to you.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: But you have to have like a floor and walls and foundation before you can decorate anything.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like jumping to like buying furniture and you don't even know what the layout is gonna be yet.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to have like that structure in place before you can decorate it, right?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's what brand strategy is it's that structure that makes your visuals actually perform well because at the end of the day, and I like literally just created a post about that, that's why it's top of mind, but at the end of the day, like the structure of your house is what determines whether or not it's still standing at the end of the day, because your visuals are like a band-aid if you don't have that structure and strategy in place first.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: So that's my analogy that I use over and over again, and it seems to help people connect those dots.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: So yes, I agree.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: I love that so much.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, okay, moving a little bit into we we touched on this just slightly, but I would like to touch on it a little bit more because I feel like it's such a common thing people say.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like, be consistent, be consistent, be consistent.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: How do brands be consistent without just being the same?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: Or like one thing that I see people do when they're trying to be consistent is like they dumb stuff down because they don't have the capacity to like really go in on things.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: What's your take on that?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how do you be consistent, but not like I don't know, boring or like too surface level?
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that being consistent is you know, like I said, kind of just like repeating the elements of what you know about your brand, but like saying it in different ways sometimes so that you can make sure that people you're not only like connecting with people like emotionally.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, for example, you know, maybe you can tell a story about a client that came to you and had this problem, or like a specific story that people can identify with, so that you're not only like helping people identify themselves, uh like who your service is for through saying it, but you're maybe telling a story that they can see themselves in, like, oh man, that person that she just told a story about is experiencing the same thing I'm experiencing.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's another way to do that.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and like creating, not creating, but like telling stories of what you're doing every day, but how it connects to that consumer or customer, client, whatever.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and repeating it all of these things, but in a storytelling way, I think is a great way to do that, staying consistent in your message and in your voice, but just telling it in different ways, I think.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: So, like consistency, the way we're talking about it, is not to be confused with like frequency, um, which can be confusing to some people, including myself.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I get like tricked, I trick myself by being like, Oh, I'm not being consistent because I didn't post every day.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: What do you feel like is a balance there, like between consistency and frequency?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because do you agree that like to be consistent, there has to be a sort of cadence that happens, or yeah, what are your thoughts on that?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, for sure.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, if you're gonna like ghost your socials, then you're not gonna be building your brand during that time.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't that necessarily think that means that you have to post every single day.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think as long as you're showing up um, you know, maybe an even amount of times per week and like people know what to expect as far as like you're not gonna bombard them one week and then ghost them the next.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think that that's not sustainable.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think everybody kind of understands and agrees with that.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think the biggest thing with consistency um is making sure that when you are posting things, like again, going back to like the trend.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And stuff, making sure that everything is very aligned with your brand and your voice, and you know, repeating those things that you are known for to your audience within your content, every single post you put out there, and there's like meaning behind it.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's yeah, there's um purpose and you're giving them value.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think when you're doing all of those things, I don't think showing up every single day is necessary.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I agree with you.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think you agree.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: I do, I do agree with you more and more.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's just different stages for every business, and it depends on what your goals are.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like, are you in a growth phase?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: Are you not?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like, where are you at in your launch cycle?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: That to me impacts more like the frequency, but the consistency always has to be there.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: And this actually made me think of another thing.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think about people rebranding?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like, do you think people generally rebrand too much and too often, or do you think they don't do it enough?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so curious because you really are on that side of things.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that people rebrand for the wrong reasons sometimes.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think they maybe feel like things are getting stale.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they just immediately jump to like the visual side of things.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, well, I want to raise my prices, and so I need to do a rebrand.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes that is the case, but a lot of times the reason I think that people are having to rebrand so often is that again, they don't have that structure in place to make sure that their brand is going to hold up for years and years and years and become recognizable.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think when people rebrand too often, it just like waters down your ability to be recognized.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I think a good case scenario for needing to rebrand is first of all, you never branded within with a strategy in place in a strategic way, like making sure that you have all of these um strategy MLs, like knowing who your audience is so that you can make sure that your brand is going to speak to them.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um maybe you're pivoting your business and your services, your offerings.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good reason to rebrand because you need to be able to kind of attract a different type of clientele.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you maybe re-raising your prices, like again, you kind of have to attract a different client clientele in order to um raise your prices like successfully.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of these things are reasons to rebrand, just making sure that you're not having to do it again in a couple of years because you don't want to do it.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, even the biggest brands in the world rebrand every probably five to ten years.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's not uncommon.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: But in order to avoid doing it too often, making sure that that strategy in place, I think, is like the biggest key to rebranding.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: Ooh, okay.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: Now I want to know your opinion on how much obviously you're more on the visual side of things, but we've worked together enough.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: I know you also are really good at messaging and even copywriting.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: What how do those play together?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like, if you're designing someone's website and they don't have good copy, like how does it totally negate the design, or like can the design still support without like really good copy?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: How do you feel like those play together?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Good question.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: I do not consider myself necessarily a copywriter.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: I do like to guide the overall copywriting, like again, going back to the audience, how what are the emotional triggers for them psychologically?
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what are the things that you need to say in order to get to them to make a buying decision?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I definitely wouldn't claim myself as a copywriter.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many better copywriters out there.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: But I know you got that little skill there.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: I the thing is, is I I don't I I do really think that if your messaging is not aligned, your brand won't go as far.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think I don't necessarily think that that means you absolutely have to hire a copywriter, but I do think that you need to have some key strategic things in mind when you are writing your own copy if you're going to do it yourself.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um because copywriting um for businesses really is needs to be like psychology based so that you can really get inside that person's mind and take them from point A to point B without like them getting like distracted or um I don't know, like without adding noise and fluff.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think so many websites right now have a lot of fluff to them, and it just you lose people so quickly when um there's lots of extra words because people don't love reading nowadays.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um I know I struggle to do a long one.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, same.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say anytime that I land on a website and it's like a million miles long with copy, I'm like, I am just gonna skim this.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um like I'm tired.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and not having to spend like the mental calories to understand what they mean too.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Again, going back to like that jargon.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you're if they're having to like make leaps and bounds on what you're saying, you're not going to convert them.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it just has to be like so easy.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say, I guess to answer your question, I do think that like the messaging plays a huge part.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think I always like to explain it like, you know, your brand, your website, that's like your storefront.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's like um gonna be like the magnetizer.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: But the the messaging is what sells people ultimately.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, you know, you can command that that attention and trust with your brand visuals.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, you're walking down a grocery store aisle and you see that can of poppy and you're like, wow, that one really stands out to me.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go look closer and read it.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: That is when you're gonna sell someone, is if that that messaging really connects to them and their desires.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: And if it doesn't, then you've lost them.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: So again, that brand is a band-aid if you don't have that messaging to really connect to people.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I love that.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like it goes right into one of the other topics we wanted to touch on, which is how to build those brand, like how to build a brand world.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like you're you're already kind of talking about like getting people in and then they take the next step.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: What even is a brand world?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then we can go from there.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, my favorite topic.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: I love, I feel like brand worlds are like feel, I don't know, a little bit like woo-woo.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I like I like to explain it like you're building a kind of like a culture, a community, like an exclusivity around your brand.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: And when you think about it in the way of like, let me think of like a it girl brand, right?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so like I always like to use road as an example because they're I knew you were gonna say that.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: That was crazy.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: They just like have a very visceral brand world, especially right now.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think everybody knows the brand road, the beauty right now.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like it makes Sephora a good example.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: But like they've Hailey Bieber has built a brand world around that brand to the point that like you can identify it no matter what touch point you land on, whether you see you're walking past the bottle at Sephora, I think it's carried at Sephora now.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, or if you are scrolling on socials and you have like an ad pop up or a you know, just a social post pop up, you know exactly what brand that is.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you're if you are a consumer of road, you identify as a specific type of person.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: You identify as like a cool girl.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: If you I was just gonna say, like, if I see a girl who has like a road lip gloss, I'm like, I know I'm gonna like you.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, it's just so like I don't even know where that comes from, but yeah.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's like an exclusive club of a type of person who like loves this like minimalist, like glowy, like skincare routine.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like yeah, there is just such a vibe, and it's it's instilled throughout, like, you know, if I don't know if anybody, I'm sure everybody's noticed, but like all of the text is always in lowercase.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: There's no like we do not take anything.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: We're so chill, we're so cool.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like it is such a brand world.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: Every little thing, like every shoot has a specific like type of lighting and angles.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it is built throughout like the logo, the colors.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the colors are so like minimalist and clean.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, every photo, it just feels like that glowy, um, I don't know, just very minimalist essence to it.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that when, again, you know, if if someone owns anything road, they've probably posted it online.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: That is the biggest identifier of like because it because people want to show it off.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's the biggest thing about building a brand world and why you want to build a brand world is because you want people to kind of become like your micro influencers.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: If you're thinking about it in like a service way, you want people to like sit down with their girlfriends over drinks and be like, oh, you're looking for a photographer, I have a girl.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, all of a sudden, like being able to say, I have a girl is kind of like that like key card to like this like exclusive lounge, you know what I mean?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you sound so cool when you say, I have a girl, I got a girl, I got you.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um you seriously do, and like when you're organically being like mentioned, like the same thing with like people who are organically posting their road lip gloss.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you want people to organically share about you because they like they love you and they're obsessed with you.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly, for sure.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm obsessed with that.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: I I've never really like understood what a brand world is, and I feel like you just explained it so well.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: How can someone start building a brand world for themselves?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: So the biggest thing I I think there's like three main things that kind of go into building a brand world.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you use, you know, like Road as the example, the first one is just like the having the audacity to be like so distinct.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that comes from like having a vision for your brand that is different than other people's.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: So like you're not a follower, you're a leader, you are not looking at what your peers are doing, you are doing things your own way.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, like you know, I kind of Taylor Swift is an example of that.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: I she's like again another easy low lift one.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody should know who she is, obviously.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: But she, no matter like how much she evolves, her voice, her message, her brand stays intact, and like having that vision and not letting anything falter it, and just being so um, I don't know, having that audacity again to just like have that vision stay the same no matter what other trends come up, no matter what other people are doing, I think is a huge part.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um you're not trying to like sound like other people or sound like too professional.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um you just like sound like yourself.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and then yeah, I think not diluting with trends, choosing a specific lane and sticking with that.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's also like not about being too loud.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's you you want to be like specific, you want to sound like you, you don't want to shape shift every time, you know.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: Again, new trends.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then I would say part two is like again, going back to that strategy, like your strategy just brings that vision and that belief system throughout your positioning within the market, your your messaging, your visuals, like the you know, your logos, your colors, your website, your social media content, um, your client experience, all of it like points to that same truth.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, an example of that, like, so our family is going to Disney World next week.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like Disney is like one of the best examples for like experience and having like that consistency across touch points.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like they have a like a strategy behind every single thing that they do.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, from like the storytelling, the all of the details within the parks, everything reforces reinforces that same like world that they're building, and it's like built on purpose.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: So details matter so much.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like making sure that that strategy of your vision, you know, like I think Disney's is like the happiest place on earth, and so like that happiest place on earth is the filter for every single decision that they have within Disney as the brand, you know?
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and like when you think about filter system, yeah, like I can see the filter of Disneyland like so clearly, and it's just like everything will be magical, like exactly from your experience, like getting an email with your tickets in it, to like checking in at your hotel, to like signing in for the park.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like when you scan your little thing to get in the park, it makes like the magic sound.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, it's just everything is magical the entire time, and like that's not even cr that's not even crazy.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like, it's just what if everything you did in your business had like a word that you stuck to, and that's what you did.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: You made every single thing magical, or you made everything precise, or you made everything beautiful, whatever it is, like that you're providing.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: I've also never thought about it that way.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it's so crazy, but that's yeah, I love that.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, I mean, not even just I think like even your process, like if you had that word, let's say your word is, I don't know, clarity, and that's your promise to everyone.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so like your process from like onboarding, yeah, even your content, every single thing needs to reflect clarity and have that transformation of clarity so that nothing ever feels chaotic.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you're promising clarity, that's what people are gonna expect.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: And those are the testimonials that you're going to get.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, for example, my biggest thing again is like kind of like reflecting the founder's vision for their business and across all of their touch points.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: And literally, almost every single testimonial I get is like, oh my gosh, you were you got inside my head.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like you knew exactly what my vision was and created it.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: And like, I that's not by accident.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: I reverse engineered those testimonials by my process is exactly built to create that founder's vision from start to end so that they never feel like they were lost in my own process that I made up for no reason.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: So like it goes deep.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's deep, like in your client experience, it's in your visuals, it's in your messaging, it's in every email that you send, every caption that you write.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like, wow.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: I've seriously never even thought of it like that.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I can't believe it.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, wow, I'm really shocked right now.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I love that so much.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I do feel like the words like brand world to me have felt cringy in the past because the content I've consumed of people saying that are like, come join my world.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, I don't literally, I don't care about your worlds.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: And you're also giving cult leader, I don't like it.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um but but when you reframe it as like the whole experience, I'm like, come join my world.
• 38:42
  unknown: Yeah.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't have to say it like that.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't think brand world is like, it's probably one of those um like jargon words for brand designers.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think when you think about it as like a community, and and not in a community, like I think a lot of people think of community like I don't know, a Facebook group.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: But but I think community can look like a lot of different things.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like the maybe you consistently have a way that you show up and engage with your community online, whether that's like I don't know, social content reviews, and like people like post their socials and they just like love being a part of that.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: Or and maybe that can be in a way that your community gets involved too, and they give their honest opinions of certain things.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what that looks like for you, but like having those consistent touch points that gets your compute community involved so it doesn't always feel like you're just like it's so almost feels like they have they are in touch with you as the founder.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah um and they're a part of something bigger than just like buying from you, you know.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think having that exclusivity of like I'm the type of person who engages with this brand, and that's so cool to me, you know.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like I'm the type of person I love that.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: I love that as a reframe.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I need to take that sentence and be like, who what is my client saying in those words?
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm the type of person that works with the rave social.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what who is that person?
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like is such a good exercise to be like, who is the target audience?
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't know.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: Because I do think just saying, like, you need to know your target audience is sometimes really actually confusing because it's like, oh, people that wanna work with me, like you know, it can be coming to pay me.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, people will like pay me and love me and think I'm cool, you know?
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like it can be hard to dial in what actually is your target audience, but I feel like reframing it as that question and kind of like looking at that person is actually really valuable.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think I gotta do that exercise.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think the I I think the best way to think about like your target audience, because I feel like target audience is like you think of demographics, like, oh, she's female and she goes to yoga.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, whatever.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: But when I think about it in a person, especially when I'm creating content, if I think about it as a specific person, like I like to follow a lot of the people who I am personally targeting.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm like thinking about a specific person and I've consumed their content, so I already know, especially founders who are like posting behind the scenes, I already know what they're thinking because they're posting about it.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just basically create videos in response to like what they're saying.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: And this doesn't work for every single service provider.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you're a wedding planner or something, I guess maybe brides are out there posting about planning their weddings, they probably are now.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um but like trying to get inside their minds and then posting to that specific person, I think, is a lot easier than the vague, like, oh, she's 25 and go to yoga, you know.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because like ultimately, what is that even like?
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: What is that even helping you achieve?
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like, are you gonna talk about yoga?
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't know, you know.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, okay, well, I've had the best time with this conversation.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: So much fun.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, before we wrap up, I want to just ask you one more question, and I'm kind of throwing this at you.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm wondering what's one piece of advice you wish you could give your younger self.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: And this could be like in terms of branding, but it could also just be like in your personal life.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what do you wish you could tell your younger self?
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, it does relate to branding, but I don't necessarily think that it has to.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's one of those things that I've realized more and more as I've built two businesses now, is that to stop following what other people are doing just because I see that it works.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the second that I've stepped away from doing that and stepped into like who I am, how my brain works, how I speak, what my personality type is, and put more of that out there, I've automatically differentiated myself and connected with the right people rather than trying to connect with the people who my maybe my peers are connecting with.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's so easy to fall in that comparison trap and be like, okay, well, she's doing that, that must be working.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: I should try that too.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: Instead, I'm really embracing who I am and how I solve people's problems uniquely.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, if you were to strip down branding to just that, that is really what is going to attract and connect with your audience.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so being more of yourself, I wish I didn't waste so much time trying to do the other things, trying to do the formulas, the trends, all that other crap.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because it just doesn't get you anywhere faster.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: No, and I was it's so funny that you say that because I was actually writing about this this morning in my like daily drills writing exercise, and I was talking about how like.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's so easy to want to do what you've seen other people do.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's like a big challenge that women in business have had because we really are like women are newer to building these businesses online and like for ourselves.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: But the blueprint we have is honestly from male-dominated industries and male-founded and male-grown businesses.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so, yes, they have formulas that work.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: And it's actually kind of scary to make the conscious decision to be like, I know that works, but I want to do it a different way, actually.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: That doesn't have a blueprint, and I'm gonna have to figure it out on my own.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_02: And like it's so it can be so scary, but ultimately, like the reward is that you get to build a business that supports exactly how you're you want your life to be.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um and the risk is like you you're gonna have to figure it out, and you maybe don't have a blueprint, and you don't you're choosing not to follow what worked in the past or whatever, and it's it can be kind of scary, but then I ultimately think that it's worth it.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: It is so scary to put yourself out on out there online like as yourself and not like put that mask on of what other people are doing.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think, yeah, for sure, as a as a female, it's one of those, it's again, it's one of those things that I've had to learn the hard way, unfortunately.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like showing up online as someone else is never going to get you very far.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it's scary, but I'm climbing cringe mountain every single day.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: Me too.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like it changes, like at first, I think you can't help but kind of show up as like not yourself, because like you're just trying and it's uncomfortable, and like maybe you don't even totally fully know like who you are, but you have to just like start there, and then it evolves over time and it becomes like less of a conscious thing.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_02: You don't even think about like how am I showing up, you just start showing up as yourself.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it is scary, and it it does feel extremely cringy.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's so funny.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: I was looking back through like some of my old TikToks yesterday, and I was just like, Where did I get the audacity to just like say that?
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I would never say that right now, but it's just funny how you grow and evolve, and now we get to do it in front of the whole world, so that's great.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: I know if I ever have a person who I know in real life come up to me and say, Hey, I saw your TikTok, I'm like, okay, don't say that to me ever.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, no, no, you're watching.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: Please block me.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like, this is not for you.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: No, seriously.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's so funny.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, this conversation's been great.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: Is there anything else you want to add before we say goodbye?
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think we said it all.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, me too.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna link all of your things.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, like I said, I've worked with Cassie.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like, we've worked on the same team before.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_02: I've worked with her on my own projects.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_02: She's incredible.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_02: She's worked with like our clients.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like the branding you did for Sabrina was insane, and she's everything.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna make sure all of your things are linked.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: If you guys are looking to build your visual brand identity and really get aligned, she's your girl.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_02: You're welcome, and thanks for being on today.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 47:38
  unknown: Bye.