Latest / The Follio Property Podcast / Property market getting worse & worse as rental crisis deepens | Property Experts

Transcript

Property market getting worse & worse as rental crisis deepens | Property Experts · The Follio Property Podcast

• 0:00
  Are investors exiting the birth market now? Yes, they are. Over the next 12 months, we will see investors exit. Is Victoria almost used as the guinea pig to roll out to the rest of the states? Victoria is always the model to follow. Our government said, no way, it'll be Victoria. Victoria reported a net loss of 642 properties in May. Queensland, a net loss of 332.
• 0:21
  equate to around a loss of 3% of their total rental pool. With changes in the budget and what we've seen around taxation and, you know, Victoria have gone very hard on their legislation, their policy reform. If you've had a rental property in Victoria for the last six, seven years, you're bleeding. People go, I'm sick of feeling like a greedy landlord or being demonised in the media.
• 0:43
  You're listening to the Folio Property Podcast. I'm Rhys Biddle and I'm here with a special guest this week, actually. We've got Suzanne Brown, who is the president of Rewa. She's had 35 years property experience. She's the director of RentWest with more than 20 years in business. One of WA's most experienced voices on property management and rental policy. I thought it would be a great guest to bring in today because there's a lot going on in the property market, particularly the rental market, especially post-budget as well in Australia. There is, yes. Lovely to be here. Thanks, Rhys.
• 1:13
  I was just saying off air, I want to get into the nitty-gritty first. We've got a lot to cover today. So I want to talk through the rental market, Rewa as well, looking at from an investor landscape. This podcast is predominantly focused on investors across Australia as well. So I want to get a bit of an understanding on what you've seen in the market, any trends and where we see that going. And then look a little bit on rental reform as well. So we do a lot of acquisitions in Victoria, which has a lot stricter rental reform than what we do have here in Western Australia.
• 1:42
  I've recently gone through a process with my property in London, which is even stricter than Victoria. So I want to touch on some of those bits with you today as I want to get your thoughts and where you see the market evolving in Australia. But let's kick off with an article you actually posted in the West Australian for REWA, which was essentially on an investor exodus where you're looking at some data in the East Coast. And just to highlight some of those data sets before we get into it.
• 2:06
  It was Victoria reported a net loss of 642 properties in May. Queensland a net loss of 332. WA saw increased investors selling, but nothing compared to these sorts of levels. What that piece particular,
• 2:21
  What made you want to talk about that and where do you see, is this a good thing? Because this is, you know, from a government perspective, the whole thing of the budget, and this has probably come out, you know, the month of the budget that got announced, was to, you know, help first home buyers. Is this a good thing? We're losing all these rental properties.
• 2:38
  I don't think so. I think, look, if I talk about WA stats in particular, 85% of investment properties are provided by the private investor market. So we need every single one of those to stay in the market. And I think the stats in Victoria equate to around a loss of 3% of their total rental pool. And that comes from bonds data, which is really significant. And we're running at a 2% vacancy rate in Perth at the moment.
• 3:04
  And if we saw a 3% exit in our market, that would really be detrimental to tenants. And sometimes I think the government, the policies they look at putting in the people they're trying to protect are sometimes the people that impact the most.
• 3:20
  Definitely with changes in the budget and what we've seen around taxation and Victoria have gone very hard on their legislation, their policy reform and different taxation. I think that has impacted the market. And one commentator said to me, is that a bad thing? No grounds termination coming into Perth hasn't really impacted the rest of Australia that most states have the policy.
• 3:43
  And I said, if you call a 1% vacancy rate a healthy rental market for tenants, I don't agree. So I feel it has impacted different markets. And it's interesting, you're looking at some of the key figures that were highlighted in that article was Queensland and Victoria, very different rental markets. And what I mean by that is, if you've had a rental property in Victoria for the last six, seven years, you're bleeding. You've probably struggled from a rental perspective. You've had no price growth with that asset as well. So to exit the market,
• 4:11
  in May might not necessarily be to do with government schemes or any rental reforms. It's probably people maybe just starting to recover and wanting to get out of the market. Queensland is an interesting one because similar to Perth, that has been on a serious run from a price growth perspective over the last four or five years as well. So is there any correlation between the two, do you think, or is it purely people being reactive off the back of the budget?
• 4:32
  If you're serious about property, you need better inputs. PropStack is where our chief economist and research team puts everything together. Our leading investment reports, our suburb level data, and a weekly market update on what's actually moving. It's the same research our advisors work from, and you can get access now. Scan the QR code and click the link in the description.
• 4:51
  Potentially, but I think investor sentiment goes a long way in people's decisions. Investors have been demonised for way too long. And again, they do the heavy lifting for a lot of governments in the market providing accommodation for people that the government will never, ever be able to do. And they've proven that in the last few years with the houses they haven't managed to build. I think there's no other asset class that we attack so much like we do investors with policy, legislation, taxation.
• 5:21
  And it just does seem really unfair a lot of times. And I think sentiment goes a long way and people go, you know what, we've probably got an ageing demographic at the moment of investors. And I think they're really looking at where they have their money and going, you know what, I'm sick of feeling like a greedy landlord or being demonised in the media.
• 5:41
  Interesting. And from like whether this is your REWA hat or this is your Rent West hat, what's the feedback you're seeing in the Perth market? So these are some, you know, you said it could be quite detrimental to the WA market if we saw similar data that they're tracking across Victoria. Have you seen on the ground just, you know, boots on the ground, a bit of a feel and sentiment vibe? Are investors exiting the Perth market now?
• 6:03
  Yes, they are. Yeah. I think, well, some have definitely had really good growth in the last few years. A lot of East Coast people that are brought into Perth have seen their growth and they're happy with what they've got and are exiting and looking at potentially other markets. And look, there is a wait and see a lot. And I think we're all still trying to unpack the decisions with the government and what the implications are.
• 6:27
  I think there's a lot of experts, accountants scrambling, looking at everyone's structure and deciding what way is the best to go. So I think between now and next June 30, I think we'll definitely see some investors exit. We have got no grounds termination coming in. The government are saying it will probably be in by this time next year. Explain that for those that aren't familiar with the no grounds termination.
• 6:48
  Yeah, and look, on face value, it sounds reasonable. Nobody should be able to evict a tenant without a grounds, without a reason. And I think, as I said, that sounds reasonable. But a lot of times those protections are there for a reason. And I know when it was announced after I did some media, I interviewed a tenant that said I queried a $50 rent increase and my lease was not renewed or ended and basically no reason given. And I really question that because...
• 7:15
  There's a commercial value to moving a really good tenant on. No landlord in their right mind moves a good tenant on, and especially for the sake of $50. That whole exercise would cost them between probably around $2,500 is the rent increase. There is always grounds. It's just sometimes we use them.
• 7:35
  The times that we use them is when we don't want an adversarial relationship between ourselves as property managers or the owners and the tenants. So sometimes it's kinder to the tenant to just end the lease and not renew the lease. But the government are wanting all leases to continue unless...
• 7:53
  You have one of their prescribed reasons, which is, and they're still to be determined, but unless it's selling, potentially moving yourself, uninhabitable, being developed. And we're trying to expand those reasons. Obviously, antisocial behaviour, not paying utilities, not paying rent, to make that as broad as possible so it protects investors with their investments.
• 8:13
  Just going into a little bit more detail on that, because I was saying to you earlier, like we, our business, we're doing a lot of acquisitions in Victoria, so we're pretty up to speed with the regulations over there. Are they, and just for those that aren't aware, so no-fold evictions is in place. 90-day notice required for rent increases there at the moment, but the big one's the minimum rental standards before you can put a property on the market. And some things are absolutely critical for the tenant's safety, but there are some, the fact that you...
• 8:42
  I think you need blackout blinds in every single living room, right? And you can't put a, you know, that could take you a week or two to get installed, but you've got to wait a week or two before you can actually put that on the market. So there is some strictness to it that can actually impact investors from a cash flow perspective upfront. As someone who's actually lived in a lot of rental properties over my life, being a rent investor for quite some years, you know, I think a lot of these are good reforms, but
• 9:04
  Definitely, you've got to know what you're getting into before, from an investor standpoint, before you buy an investment property in these areas. Now, I don't know if this is true, so I'd love to get your opinion. Is Victoria almost used as the guinea pig to roll out to the rest of the states? And if so, when's that getting rolled out across the rest of the country? I feel Victoria is...
• 9:24
  is the, and especially when we've got a dominant Labor government across Australia and federally, I feel Victoria is always the model to follow, which generally we don't feel is the best one. And we asked for if there was going to be reform around no grounds, could we follow Queensland, which we felt was a lot more balanced and our government said, no way, it'll be Victoria.
• 9:46
  Yeah, and look, I think we're all, I think nobody objects to a tenant having a better renting experience. I think we all want that, the owner, the property manager and the tenant. So as far as modifications or minimum standards, I think as long as they strike a reasonable balance, good reform is always about a reasonable balance. I just find sometimes government go on a lot of anecdotal decisions.
• 10:10
  evidence rather than specific data on making some of these decisions. A tenant shouldn't have to move into a property that has mould. But we actually have to understand the reasons behind it. A lot of times with mould in winter in some properties is a ventilation issue. That can be attributable to the tenant, not the owner.
• 10:28
  The blackout blinds is the craziest one. Yeah, it is. I've never had a house that's had blackout blinds in my living room and you can't even put it on for – let's just say you got it agreed. The landlord was happy to install those. They can't legally put it online to advertise that property unless it's installed. I think that's where it goes too far. I'm with you. There's things there where they need to have updated switchboards. It's going from a mold perspective 100%, but I think sometimes then you give them a little bit – they go a little bit too far and that's probably the concern –
• 10:55
  If we roll it out to the rest of the country, we do get – it's not a deal breaker because we'll have, I guess, contractors in place to get these things done quickly. But it is an education process, especially when we've got a Perth investor buying in Melbourne and hearing some of the laws that there are there. Around them. Correct. I just feel with Victoria, we just always go one or two steps too far and some unreasonable.
• 11:19
  The other one I was going to mention, so like I only know this because I'm going through this process myself with I've got a property in London and London actually or the UK probably six, seven years ago did something similar with their negative gearing or been able to offset from any deductions for a personal landlord and what happened in the market, that kind of uses a bit of a case example where now your sort of mom and dad investors don't exist but they're getting even stricter with their rental. So I had this, I had a two-year lease, it ended and I got told now,
• 11:48
  They don't do fixed term leases. It's only periodical leases. And the tenant's got two months notice at any point to exit it. You can only have a rent increase once a year. And the tenancy has to be in for a minimum of 12 months before you can end it. So that's even to the next extreme. So you can end it?
• 12:08
  So you need – so a tenant needs to be in there for 12 months before you can provide notice to end the lease. So both sides of the party have got two months' notice. So there's no fixed contracts, but as a landlord, you can't kick anyone out for the first 12 months, even if you're looking to sell it. Right. Okay.
• 12:26
  Well, there's some sort of compensation around the tenant. So that's gone even to the nth degree as well. And is there different energy efficiency? They're quite strong on the energy efficiency criteria. Correct. You've got to have a minimum energy rating over there. And a lot of the houses over there, they're all Victorian houses at 150 years old. So it is, yeah, you're having to get them fit for purpose. And what that's actually done is...
• 12:50
  This is the reason I want to mention this London example as an extreme example of where it could go. What they're finding and the feedback I had from multiple agents in my borough in London when I was looking at this property was now landlords are being extremely picky with their tenants. So it's actually you're starting to disincentivize the person who needs that private housing because
• 13:10
  You know what it's like if you're seeing an application come through on a rental property and you get the profile of all your applicants. They're going to be very stingy with who they're going to let into their property now because there's no protection there in terms of a fixed-term lease. So that's the reason I brought that up. I was just trying to get an understanding of Victoria's going one step further. Is Perth following what she said or WA following what she said?
• 13:30
  Could we go even further and what's your opinion on those sorts of – Yeah, no, and you're dead right. Applications right now in lieu of no grounds terminations coming in next year are being scrutinised more than ever. And they should always be scrutinised. But owners are preferring to sometimes leave their properties vacant and wait for a tenant and more applicants and better applicants than roll the dice and choose one.
• 13:56
  And again, you're right, it will impact on the more vulnerable in our society that may at one time have faltered on some rental payments or something. And even if we're talking about women, we work a lot in the domestic violence space. And those women, are they going to get a chance when, you know, when you're really scrutinising applicants and a lot of times their income ratios vary?
• 14:21
  you know, really tight, are they going to get a look in? You know, whereas once upon a time people would give them a go and give them a fresh start and things like that, is that going to impact on those people? And that really, really concerns me. 100%. And what about REWA? How much of a voice do they have with some of these changes from a government policy perspective?
• 14:42
  Look, we have really good engagement with the government. They are very good. We have quarterly meetings with Minister Booty, who is our commerce minister. Obviously deals with legis and legislation and policy. And we have a quarterly meeting with Minister Kerry. I must say during my time, I'm a little bit disillusioned with the WA government. And they're good with consultation. Sometimes I feel it's tick a box that they've consulted.
• 15:07
  And from what you've heard, I know obviously you've been a member for a period of time with Rewa, but the president role, I believe, every two years. Have previous governments been more proactive with Rewa in the past, from what you've heard? Look, their proactivity is, it can't be questioned. They consult and they engage and so forth. So we definitely can't complain about that. And look, the decisions they've made, they are following a national mandate. So it's very hard. We probably couldn't ever remain the only state that didn't have, or...
• 15:36
  I think one of the territories doesn't have no grounds. We probably couldn't remain. That was probably unrealistic. I just feel there's a lot more. You know, when Minister Kerry sees he's pulling all the levers, there's still a lot more he could be doing. I mean, stamp duty, for example, they're generating over a billion dollars over and above what they budgeted for, what's in their budget for stamp duty. And that's due to...
• 15:57
  you know, the bracket creep of prices and so forth. I feel there wasn't enough in the state budget recently to help tenants and help affordability. One suggestion we had was that investors, and look, they're not going to give investors a break. They're just not...
• 16:14
  in their mandate as a government, but how about giving them an incentive off their council rates, their land tax, and as long as the tenant is eligible, but passing that offset straight through to the tenant to help with their affordability. You know, the most vulnerable people I see in the community at the moment are probably women my age that have left a marriage or, you know, one income is very, very hard to find any rental out there at the moment. And, um,
• 16:41
  Any single person doesn't have to be a woman. So I don't feel they're doing enough. I think they have... Do you think they're more focused on... Because the noise throughout Australia is always on housing and supply, and especially in Perth where...
• 16:57
  Urban sprawling is a huge run. It's the infill. So I actually listened to Minister Kerry on Trent Fleskin's podcast this week and he sounded pretty stressed in terms of the focus was on trying to build in more supply. Do you think that they're focusing more just on the supply and not actually thinking about...
• 17:14
  the um you know the actual renters out there as well and that demographic yeah the supply solutions also seem to be quite long term i i think that's a little bit of concern anything that needs to be built you know i know they've incentivized tradies coming to uh to perth to help build with a ten thousand dollar incentive i don't know where we're going to house them i think there is more that can be done but um they don't seem to want to part with money
• 17:40
  From your, obviously, 35 years experience in the industry, you've seen multiple property cycles here in Western Australia. And obviously, from your business, from the rental side of things, you're dealing with a lot of these tenants. What are some, I know you mentioned there are some vulnerable clients that you're concerned with. There's no sort of reform or policy to help those out. What would be some of the big things that you would change to help make renters out there have a better opportunity here in Perth?
• 18:06
  Yeah, look, so we have got, the government did have their $5,000 assistance scheme for tenants that were under, were at the risk of facing eviction. And, you know, what we see is a lot of elderly that are really vulnerable in the community that will not let themselves be late with their rent. They'll go without food before they don't pay their rent. You know, they really understand and appreciate the value of a roof over their head. They will not let themselves get to that stage and will not.
• 18:31
  be eligible for the grant. So just extending it a little bit. I'm really concerned of the NRAS scheme which ended in June 30. There's 1500 tenants.
• 18:40
  What was the NRES scheme? National Rental Affordability Scheme. So investors were offered an incentive of $10,000 off their annual tax return or a benefit of $10,000, providing they lease their property to eligible tenants 20% under market value. So we don't do NRES, but from my understanding, 1,500 tenants were coming off that scheme as it ended with no backup scheme in place to protect them or no forward thinking scheme or no...
• 19:09
  scheme for the future that addressed, that helped with addressing that supply. And what happens to those tenants? Do they get a 20% rent? Do they go back to normal rent? The owners aren't getting that offset or that incentive of the $10,000 anymore. So no real thought into ending one scheme without having some levels of protection for those tenants. How many, with the REWA president, it changes every two years. How many property managers have been a REWA president?
• 19:37
  I think I'm the first. I think you are. Now, was that strategic then? Because in terms of REEW's probably stance and wanting to have a reform, I'll really look at those vulnerable tenants you mentioned there. Do you think that was strategic, putting you in a power position where you've got a strong voice to speak for those people? I'd probably like to say yes, but I don't know. I think it was – I was asked a few years ago to look at becoming the president, but I had my youngest son in going through year 11 and 12,
• 20:03
  And they had always shared me with the business growing up. So, and I knew if I did this role, I'd want to do it 110%. So I really wanted to focus on Bailey year 11 and 12. And, you know, really lucky the opportunities come along again. But the board do decide who the president is, so.
• 20:20
  We're talking more about the REWA role itself. So for those that don't know, because we will, like I was mentioning to you off air, you know, majority of our audience, Perth was a predominant audience when we first started, but we probably have about 70, 80% outside Western Australia now. We do a lot of, you know, work nationally, and the other bodies are nowhere near as prevalent as what REWA is in WA and the data that REWA has and the members and the...
• 20:46
  I guess the advocacy they've got is completely different. So talk to us about REWA and why it's so important for Western Australia. As for government, we represent 90% of the industry are REWA members. So that's really important when we're talking to government that we're saying 90% of agents are members of REWA. And I don't think there's any other institute around Australia that has that percentage of membership. So we are very, very strong. We run REWA.com.
• 21:13
  I might be putting you on the spot here, but why do you think that is? Because how has WA, is it the support, how have they managed to get such a strong membership through the state? Because it's night and day when you look at the other states and what they're doing with their trade bodies.
• 21:29
  I think that we've always had a focus on supporting the agent and we have some really great commercial services that wrap around the agent themselves, the property manager or the agency or the business owner. And every one of those products we look and go, does it benefit the agent? Does it benefit the agent?
• 21:48
  And the portal, look, the portal's a really big win for WA. I think that drives some incredible data that we get out of that that, again, the government rely on. So when they quote data, it's always Rewa data. I think at the moment our data shows the lower median house price, so the government really like that rather than domain or co-tality. And it's just different methodology that we use to get at that. But ours is also live data on actual listings, actual sales and so forth.
• 22:17
  We also run a really good training organisation, really high calibre of trainers that are generally industry trainers. So I think people, members really value that. And as I said, some great commercial services wrap around. We provide the forms, different technology partners and so forth.
• 22:35
  So I know I can see obviously the advantage if you are in the industry from a Rewa perspective. I want to look at maybe more your everyday punter who's listening, who's not in the property industry and trying to understand the importance of an organization like Rewa to them. Particularly want to touch, you know, we are an investor podcast and we do own a buyers agency. So I want to talk about the rise of the buyers agent, essentially. We've been pretty passionate on this podcast over the last 12, 18 months, trying to educate our audience on products.
• 23:03
  property spruikers, what makes a good buyer's agent. We were having a chat off air about someone who just joined our business who was a valuer and worked in property management for 15 years before going into that buyer's agent space. Now, that is for us, that's exactly the type of person we're looking for for a buyer's agent.
• 23:20
  The challenge you have in this space is you do have a lot of people that do a one-week course and it's purely sales focused and then jump straight into it. So what have you seen, especially let's just look at Perth for example because you've got so much experience here in Western Australia. What's been your take on the rise of the buyer industry from your own personal perspective? And then what's REWA's looking to this and is there any sort of regulation that REWA are looking at or any courses to help sort of make sure the barrier to entry isn't so low?
• 23:50
  No, yes, dead right. Look, there's just such a varying degree of professionalism within the buyers' agents. Unfortunately, it seems to be a bit more East Coast generated. Anyone can tack a Gmail on the end of their name and become a buyers' agent. Not a lot of them do enough due diligence around the property. And Rewoo's always about...
• 24:09
  raising the professionalism. You know, we've got a member at the moment that had pretty much a slap on the wrist for not disclosing certain information to the buyer. There's now going through our professional standards tribunal in relation to that. So we do take professionalism in the industry really, really seriously. We definitely want the consumer to rely on, knowing when they're dealing with a REWA agent, REWA buyers agent, REWA property management, they're dealing with some of the best and the most professional in the industry.
• 24:36
  Buyers agent is a really exciting space for REWA and we have a really engaged buyers committee that feed a lot of advocacy information through to the REWA team. We've got a new buyers agents course. It's just such a growing segment of the market. More and more people are time poor.
• 24:55
  and appreciate the value that a buyer's agent brings to them in finding a property, especially in the times of low listings. And again, just deciphering. Now we're in a higher listing market, deciphering what's value out there and what's a really good investment and that knowledge. And I love that people are prepared to pay for that.
• 25:16
  Yeah, awesome. And with the course, I guess, that Rewa is looking at, I'm not sure if they've already launched it. Is that going to be a barrier of entry that a buyer's agent needs to have that qualification to become a Rewa member moving forward? Is that what they're looking at? Or is it purely as an extra, almost like a CPD that a buyer's agent could do to upskill them?
• 25:36
  Yeah, no, we're looking at accreditation and we do have accreditation in place, but enhancing that to be a buyer's agent and specialise in that space, then you do need to have the extra education and to be able to receive that accreditation.
• 25:51
  And you mentioned there probably someone that I highlighted, like a spruiker. There is a lot of these operators out there. We're probably going to see a lot of those start to wean off off the back of, I guess, a national property market slowdown. And I guess with investor reforms as well, probably we are seeing a lot of those.
• 26:11
  Chop shop operations start to disappear. But you mentioned there was someone in Western Australia who went through a tribunal. How did it get to that point? Was that the consumer going to Rewa or was that Rewa doing their own investigating? The purpose of the question is trying to understand if you're a consumer and you are using a buyer's agent, is there...
• 26:28
  Can you go to REWA if you're unhappy with the service you've been doing? Yeah, totally. With a REWA member, yeah, definitely. We have a public inquiries line and, yeah, we take calls, tenants, owners, investors, buyers, sellers, yeah, and help them through the issue they're dealing with.
• 26:48
  Awesome. And then just looking at from investor behavior, you mentioned a comment where you said a lot of East Coasters were, yes, in Perth now starting to sell out. Are you seeing the same trend with people in Perth? Because what we probably saw over the last three or four years in Perth was the start of the boom. It's probably similar to what's happening in Melbourne. Everyone in Melbourne's hurting right now because their property's gone backwards. So a Melbourneian to invest in Melbourne is not going to happen for another 12, 18 months because they need equity to invest, right?
• 27:15
  What we saw in the Perth boom was the first couple of years or first 18 months at least was East Coasters where they have the equity, they're in a position to make that move. Then we started seeing Perth people enter the market and Perth people wanting to always invest in Perth, not wanting to invest outside their backyard. A lot of those East Coasters have made their money. So it's no surprise they're taking their money off the table. A strategy would be if you've made over that 80% or 100%, yeah, absolutely take the money off the table.
• 27:45
  exit the investor market as well. And it does, again, go to sentiment. As I said, they're worried about legislation changes. Again, I said before, we've got an ageing demographic of investors, I feel, that are really looking at... Because when any investor sells in our market, you know, of our portfolio, I sort of generally try and have a conversation with them and go, respectfully, what are you going to do with your money? Because, you know, if you're
• 28:10
  potentially in the last few years especially, going to just put it in the bank, don't. My advice was do not sell. And it's great to hear clients that held on and now are potentially looking at selling and they're going, wow, thank you. I made another $200,000, $300,000, $400,000 by listening to you. So I think it's really important to understand what your strategy is, what you want to do with your money if you're coming out of property because we all know long-term there's some great benefits and property is generally a long-term...
• 28:38
  Definitely, we're doing a lot of appraisals. Yep. And I think people are now just setting up their structure, getting advice. Over the next 12 months, I think we will see people. My advice to our clients is just wait and see. And it really feels like we've been through an election. Whenever we have an election, the market goes quiet probably two to four weeks prior and –
• 28:59
  two to four weeks after, just for that uncertainty. And we need that to come back in the market. And it's funny, it just feels like we're in a holding pattern. I'm sure you've seen that at the moment. And I looked at some data from Rewa for the nine weeks prior to the election to the nine weeks after, we saw around 7,300 sales in that period. And the nine weeks after, we dropped to about six and a half, just over six and a half thousand. Mm-hmm.
• 29:26
  So it's about an 8% drop. It feels more. It feels like a lot less sales are happening, but they're not actually. There is more. That's fascinating because you look at, because we love your data, right? We love the Reward data. And I think you do see a lot of agents doing TikTok reels all the time about or doing LinkedIn posts, looking at the data, which in Perth, because it's not an auction market, the data to understand how the market's moving is your listings versus your sales, right? And I think when we were doing those crazy months earlier in the year where we're doing 2%, 2.5% a month,
• 29:54
  about 35% of the listings each week were selling. That's unmanageable moving forward. It feels like, yeah, probably with you, we're seeing the feedback we get from our home buying business as well is I think people are not necessarily out of the market, just trying to understand where things are and that's probably why you're starting to see increased listings.
• 30:13
  A slowdown in sales as well. Yeah, just that uncertainty, I think. And I think we can all agree we all want to work in a more balanced market. I think everybody does. With a bit more stock, you know, I always felt sort of first-time buyers that were buying in that frenzy and having to make decisions like that.
• 30:28
  looking at a house for five minutes and otherwise if they didn't jump in, they would miss out. So I think everyone, and for agents, I think we would all rather have home opens where we can meet and greet the buyers and service them properly. Same with tenants. I think we would not, no one wants 40 tenants lining up at a home open. They would much rather six to 10 and meet them and greet them properly and service them well. They're our future, tenants are our future
• 30:58
  clients and same with buyers. So I think the pause is not a bad thing. There's more stability back in the market and definitely more stock is, I think is positive for buyers. I don't know if I answered your question. You nailed it. You nailed it. Suzanne Brown, thank you for coming on the Follower Property Podcast. Thank you, Rhys. Thanks for having me.