Latest / Pod Therapy / #367: Hypochondria, Feelings v Facts, Friends' Terrible Therapist

Transcript

#367: Hypochondria, Feelings v Facts, Friends' Terrible Therapist · Pod Therapy

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Photos friends.
• 0:01
  Speaker 2: So if I need to get a hold of you,
• 0:02
  Speaker 2: instead of texting you, your best bet.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Is to write a note, take a photo of the
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: note with your dog, and post it to pod Therapy.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: J Jim be dubbs, we really got to talk about Texas.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Twenty five taxes are dude, we need to talk.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Call me back, you dumb ass.
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, put it in the dog's Yeah.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Hey, jim me Leila again. You're your annual reminder. I'm
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Doug with Nick about taxes. All right, we probably should
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: start this show.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: I guess. Yeah, all right then.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: But I think I've proven myself on the movies front.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: I'm sure you're all surprised.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we accomplished nothing. I know, nothing has
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: been crossed off the list hip. Yeah, this episode has
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: made possible by our deity, the dark Lord himself, Jim
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: Spasha and our therapy partner's journey be in tickets from
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: Fabulous Las Vegas, No mata. This is pod Therapy, real people,
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: real problems, and real therapy. You can submit your questions
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: anonymously if pot therapy dot net or emails at pot
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: therapy guys at gmail dot com. Uh, no joke. This
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: week we're just gonna go right into this. Yeah, and
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: now broadcasting from the tell a joke. That's Jim, that's Whitney,
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: that's uh, Jacob on neck. It's signed for some pot there.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: You introduced Jacob punishment snaps back.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: Well, Jacob, I know you've been talking a lot about
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: how you are really motivated to get into shape this year.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: I have, Yes, you have, and the news I feel
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: like I haven't mentioned that. You talk about it all
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: the time off air. I don't think I know why
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: you're being sold.
• 1:37
  Speaker 4: Coy now, but I don't know what fish I have
• 1:39
  Speaker 4: to do with anything good news.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: He does, He does talk about those more.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: The pod Therapy Fitness Challenge is back challenging, but yeah,
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: for twenty twenty five. We took a little hiatus for
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: a year. Okay, it's the whole year it has. We
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: didn't do it in twenty twenty four. Wow, yeah, so
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: we did in twenty twenty three. It is back for
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty five with a little little improvements. So here's
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: the thing. I did this the first time, and the
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: idea is is you should be able to have no experience.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: What's with exercise. You don't need to be in any
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: kind of physical condition. It is all body weight movement,
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: and it can all be modified to fit with wherever
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: you're at. I like that you don't have gear, no
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: equipment needed. You can do it in the comfort of
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: your own home. So that's the way the old one was.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: We're still going to do that, except now what I've
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: done is for we've got a mix of kind of
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: fitting like like high intensity interval workouts, like more kind
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: of aerobic workouts, and then we also have some resistance
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: based workoutsk. But the resistance based workouts, you're going to
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: have an option. So if you sign up for this,
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: there's actually going to be two workouts in there. There's
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: going to be a bodyweight version, yeah, and then there's
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: gonna be a resistance band version.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, add a little bit to it.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: So I put a I put a link in the
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: description to that. I put out an episode this week,
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: just a little reminder or announcement thing. I put the
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: link in there to the resistance bands that I have.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: But you can pretty much go to Amazon or wherever
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: you go and get whatever resistance bands you need. Uh,
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: but you'll have the option if you want to do
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: bodyweight version or the resistance band. Either one of them
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: will work.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: If somebody wants to sign up, where do they go?
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: You're gonna go to http slash slash www dot thoughts
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: dot com, slash dot com slash go to mentalfit personal
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: training dot com, slash pod therapy. You have to have
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: the slash pod therapy because that way can put you
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: on the watch list. Yeah, because uh, this I didn't
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: open up to everybody. This has been specifically for listeners
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: of the show, just for you baby, So it's not
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: if you go to my website, you're not going to
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: see a link to it, right, So go to married
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: in the Internet. Yes, mental fit personal training dot com.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: Slash pod therapy will take you to the form of
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: the want.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: To open up this episode's description wherever you're listening, and
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: we will put the link right there.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: Hopefully you you you pretty bit about stuff. I know
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: you are. Sometimes you'll forget fair Yeah the odd.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not a guarantee, it is there.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: Likely there's a good chance that the link will be
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: in the description.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: But this is also why we release the show a
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: day early to the patrons, because they'll catch this kind
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: of SHII and then they'll check it you know, Thursday morning,
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: they'll pop up the regular feed and go, hey Jim,
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: it's our quality improvement. Honestly, this happens a lot, or
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: they just DM me on Discord like hey, wake up dude.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's forty dollars. Uh, it's an eight week
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: long program.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: Oh cool.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: Three workouts per week go which get the year started,
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: which makes that a dollar sixty seven per work out.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: Don't don't do that.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: A dollar sixty seven per workout.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: For as little as a dollar sixty s which tells
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: you you could save the boy.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: I hate making money. I absolutely hate it because if
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: I hadn't know, Matt, I'll probably charge a little bit.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: More you just so that you're not You don't want
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: to make money. It's that you don't know how.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: I'm completely incapable of doing that. You know what.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: Actually, I think I'm canceling this whole project.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: We start this show, So sign up now before I
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: change my mind, before I realize how to increase the price.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: So eight weeks, eight weeks of workouts for forty bucks,
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: and you get two months access to the mental Fit app.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: Oh very cool, very cool. Yeah. When we last did this,
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: it went really really well. I think having community do
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: it with you.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, makes a huge change, team.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Changer, you know, whenever you know everybody's working on this
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: together and everybody's super kind, super supportive, nobody's judging, and
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: it's just like no, we're just everybody feel better. That's
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: all we're trying to do. Just feel better, be healthy.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: I love it so Mental Fit, uh person personal training
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: dot Com, Splash pod therapy.
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: Do you have like an area in discord that you
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: check in and stuff?
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: So we sure do we have so not only my
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: app actually has a chat so you can actually chat
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: and like message other people that are signed up to
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: do this.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: Very cool.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: You also have the ability to mute the chat if
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: you like, Yes, in case you need it, because we
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: got people all over the world doing this and so
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: three am you may get a notification. But yeah, on
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: the discord there is a pod therapy fitness the Fitness
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: Buddies or something therapy buddies there it is yeah.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: Boom, So check it out, general audience, come get healthy
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: with a good community. This podcast is part of your week.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: Why not make it improve your physical health as well
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: and get more involved. So check it out again. Open
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: up the episode description in your podcast app and we'll
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: make sure we have a link to it. And if
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: I've forgotten, make sure to DM me on discord and
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: tell me to do that somebody. I'm sure I can
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: get it done pretty quickly and then I'll just refresh
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: it and it'll be fine.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: It'll be like it was always there. And as long
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: as we can do worst case scenario, just go back
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: to the episode before this. Yeah, there you go, because
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: I just put an announcement out was it?
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: But that's in the Patreon.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: No, then they have out there.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: No, I don't even need to do it.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: Okay, I'll get it out there anyway.
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: Check that out come, come be a part of it.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: Let's all get healthier together, which is not on my
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: forty by four. Actually it is on my forty by
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: forty list. They'll try to get healthy. Yeah, yeah, and
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: I'm I haven't many progress on that one. But you
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: know what, dude, here's the thing.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: Here's the thing. I can show you a step by
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: step process to do one.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: Pull up.
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: It only costs you a dolleven.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: They give you forty bucks. Will you pull up? And
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: if I'm on your back when you do it, I
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: feel like that counts. You can just lift me.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: It'll be great either way. But there's there's a series
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: of workouts that you can do.
• 8:24
  Speaker 4: I'm not sure if Jim could hang on to Nick
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: while Nick did a pull up.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: That's actually pretty hard. If I hadn't even show cold.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: If I can do a triangle around his throat, I'll
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: bet you I get hold, but work. We could probably
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: rig up some kind of backpacks yeh yeah, yeah, or
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: baby Bjorn just put me on the front'll be fine.
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: I mean, I guess you could just sit on your coattails.
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: Why you did it?
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: He's used to that.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: Ride those coattails.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: Series of workouts, it's like seven different workouts or exercises
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: that you can do that like you practice them, and
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: then it's like once you can do ten of these,
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: then you move on to this thing. Oh really, And
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: once you can do ten of these, then you move
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: on to this thing, you know, man, and it slowly works.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: You up to a to We need to talk off
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: air botskay, because I that's that's the only fucking path
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: I see that I'm gonna be able to squeeze out
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: this one pull up. So there needs to be a
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: path for this, and I love that. There's a formula there.
• 9:17
  Speaker 5: You go.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: See we're all learning something anyway. Check that out and
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: we'll get healthy with you. It's a brand new year,
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: new you. Let's let's live better. And on that point,
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: speaking about health, our very first question today is about
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: hypochondria from our friend NCA Girl. Hello, Jacob, Nick, Whitney,
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: and Jim. Thanks for your podcast. What you do is
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: appreciated and important. Heart emoji thank you. I am in
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: my early thirties. I gave birth to my son at
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: twenty eight years old. I never sought help during most
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: of postpartum, but later a counselor told me they thought
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: I had postpartum anxiety from experiences I described to them.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: She did clarify she could not diagnose me, though, truly,
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: ever since I've had my I've struggled with a lot
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: of anxiety and panic attacks. I've struggled to try medication
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: that helps. I'm not on any at the moment, but
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: I have at a van if I need it. Alongside that,
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: I've had an autoimmune disease since I was twenty one
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: that I haven't always understood or tried to treat until
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: later in life. I guess being diagnosed so young, I
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: just didn't get what it meant or what I should
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: be doing. I also have never been in great shape.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: I've struggled with weight and self esteem issues for most
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: of my life. Now I get all kinds of aches
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: and pains. Some I think are truly related to my
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: autoimmune disease, some to my anxiety, some to my teething
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: grinding things. It is teeth grinding, a fun side effective
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: stress as a single mom, hooray. But I constantly worry,
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: sometimes seriously, what's seriously wrong with me, and worry that
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: I'm going to die early in life. I google things
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: all the time and have had so many doctor's appointments
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: and emergency department visits. Some check out that I'm fine,
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: like my continuous left arm pain. Cardiology just said my
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: heart is fine, and others like my outo immune disease,
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: I regularly go and try to treat. I do see
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: a counselor regularly through work. I mentioned our last session
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: that I'm starting to wonder if I'm a hypochondriac. I
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: also mentioned my brain fog or as I've been labeled
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: most of my life, that I am spacey. We talked
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: about OCD a bit, and she wondered if they are connected.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: I have a family history of OCD. Anyways, my question is,
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: how do you know if you're a hypochondriac? Could OCD
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: present that way? Ever since my little sister got diagnosed
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: with OCD and she described her diagnosis, I've wondered, just
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: because I do have some compulsions, one distinct one I
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: do every day. In fact, it helps with my intrusive
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: thoughts about death. I am kind of obsessed about death
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: and sickness and disease all the time. Wow, I'm a
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: fun writer.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: Huh.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: Thanks for any help or advice. I hope you are
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: all doing well. Happy wintery season. Sincerely, NC girl. Pronouns
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: are she and her And there's a ps here. I
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: wanted to clarify my counselor isn't trying to diagnose me
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: with OCD. She said she could give me a referral
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: if we get to that point, and also mentioned maybe ADHD,
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: But just wanted to clarify she's not trying to diagnose
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: me with anything. Thanks again, take care and see girl.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: Thought, Yeah, I mean, I'll go first because your thoughts
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: are probably educated and useful to the conversation. But this,
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: the whole thing with hypochondria really is interesting to me.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: It's a very interesting concept because it's like we all
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: perceive things different, like like I have no idea how
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: you perceive pain. I have no idea how you perceive anything.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: I know how I perceive it, you know, And like
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: I mean just in conversations with Laura, you know, every
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: once in a while, she's just kind of like, oh,
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: something doesn't feel right, or I just kind of feel
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: something just doesn't something just feels off, you know, And
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: I'm just and to me that means nothing, like I
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: can't relate to that. And she's like, well, or do
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: you ever feel that way? I'm like, I don't know
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: what it's like to feel any other way, Like I
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: don't I don't know what it's like to have something
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: that doesn't hurt.
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: Always, Like it's just like, oh, you always don't feel right,
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: like like.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: Okay, well my knee isn't gonna work today, Like it's
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: just it hurts today, like this thing, and then I'll
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: go to bed and like something else is gonna hurt tomorrow, okay.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: And it's just there's always something going on that like
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: my baseline, that's what I expect is just completely different.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: So to hear somebody say that, like, oh, I think
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: this is going on, or like I think I'm having
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: a stroke, I think I'm having a heart attack or
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: something like that, Like I just I can't relate to.
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: That, right, Yeah, are you saying Laura is a hypochondria?
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: Just kidding the roundabout way of getting to that, it
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: was that respect thought about that, But that's an interesting
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: observation that you have when you.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: When I get home tonight, Whitney, thanks what our friend
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: Whitney believe. But I didn't say it. I explained to
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: that that's probably not the case.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: She insisted.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: My cheeks hurt. Oh, I know, is that is that normal?
• 14:26
  Speaker 5: Is that right?
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: My cheeks HIRTEO, I know it's funny. Before you got
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: to the last part about o CD, I was literally
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: in my head thinking this sounds like OCD. And I'm
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: not diagnosing you either, just to be clear, But no,
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: the what I started thinking about saying this out lot,
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, man, is most hypochondria a form of OCD?
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: I started down that questioning trade in my brain. So
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: just throwing that out there, anyone's thoughts are welcome, But
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: O CD. I I mentioned this not long ago on
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: someone else's question that they had wrote in, And I
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: took this training not long ago with some like last summer,
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: I think, and I was on OCD and I learned
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: so much about it, And one of it was like
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: medical OCD yes, And that's just one category. We're used
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: to hearing OCD and thinking, oh, you're counting things over
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: and over again, or I have to check something multiple
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: times like rush your hands, wash my hands and count
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: and do a certain ritual that is also OCD. But
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: there's so much more to it than that that I
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: just did not realize I felt.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: So you're saying medical OCD as in like their OCD
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: manifests itself specifically around physical health or physical ailments things.
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: Interesting.
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: I had a client that I worked with that was
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: literally like that. They were like, what if I have cancer?
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: What if I have and you know, things that like
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: linger and you don't know or whatever, or there's a
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: bump or do I have breast cancer?
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: Whatever?
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: So it's like there's a lot of these thoughts going around.
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: I worked with clients who just thought, I'm not going
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: to live past twenty five. You know, we work through that,
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: so it's not that uncommon. I want to let you know,
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: just you're definitely not alone. There very common. You can
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: feel start to feel like, oh my god, I'm crazy.
• 16:18
  Speaker 5: Er.
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: These aren't normal thoughts and whatever crazier normal means. But
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: it's more common than you think. Yeah, but yeah, that
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: medical OCD uh. When we're talking, you mentioned compulsions, and
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: you said that you have some compulsions a distinct one.
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: I wanted to let you know. If you're googling things
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: every day, right, I would maybe just maybe I don't
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: know you, but I would maybe categories that as a
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: compulsion like.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: Well, and also routine ed visits, like constantly go into
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: emergency rooms. This is something we see with people that
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: live with you know, either health OCD or just health anxiety.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: This is one of the most expensive forms of anxiety
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: to have, right Yeah, because then you're especially in America,
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: because then you're getting these bills for five thousand dollars
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: because you just ran to an er and they did
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: nothing more than just like do a QUICKIEKG on you
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: until you're fine, or you're.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: Not costing two thousand dollars just to park there. Yeah.
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so yeah, that's kind of where my mind went.
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: That I would with your therapist maybe continue to explore
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: that with her a little bit more. Some things that
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: again I know what I've mentioned on here not too
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: terribly long ago, but ways to sort of combat or
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: try to combat these uncomfortable situations is since you are,
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: let's say, googling things every single day, we want to
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: sit with that uncomfortable feeling for longer. So let's say
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: every thirty minutes you're googling something like oh I want
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: to Google it again, or oh I want to check
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: this other website, or oh what's this new ailment? Or yeah,
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: now it's my knee, or now my heart feels weird,
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: it was fluttering, like let me google that. I would
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: challenge you to maybe try like if you're doing every
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: thirty minutes, try once an hour. Again, that's just some
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: very generic general like it's very place to start, yes, advice, well.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: Because when we think about what OCD is happening, and
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: then again none of us are diagnosing with that, We're
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: just in agreement with you that some of what you're
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: describing someon would relate to and say like, oh, yeah,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: I do that too. It's like this mosquito bite in
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: your brain, and every time you itch it, because it's
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: driving you crazy, you're making it worse. Right, And so
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: every time you touch it and you itch it, you're
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: you're increasing the next time it will feel itchy, and
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: the overall itchiness of the thing. And then this becomes
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: this feedback loop in your brain where you're compulsively requiring
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: yourself to keep checking. And then we worry ourselves sick.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: This time, I'm sure it's a heart attack. This time,
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: I'm sure it's cancer. This time, I'm sure I'm dying
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: of this. Out of the other thing, I'm constantly afraid
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: I'll see some commercial for this that and oh my god,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: I never knew about this thing. It's probably this thing.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: And then now we're constantly going to emergency rooms where
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: we're consulting doctors, going to cardiologists, or we're googling, and
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: we're constantly worrying about that, and all of these compulsive behaviors.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: Is checking behavior is giving us reassurance in the moment,
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: and so we crave it the same way that scratching
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: the itch is better than sex, like whenever you're dealing
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: with the mosquito bite. But then which it is.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: You gotta self park that somebody who grew up in
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: the Midwest with lots of mosquito bites. It is.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: It's a special kind of pleasure. You know, it's dirty.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: You know what you're doing is wrong.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: You know in church, in church, I don't care about
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: your God.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: This is right, Fuck you grandma anyway. So yeah, no,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: it is. It becomes this compulsive thing and an ultimately
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: writer this is it starts to control our lives. Right,
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: and so this is where Whitney's advice is exactly the
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: first step that we take. We have several different tools
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: that we use to fight back on OCD of this
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: particular brand. One of them is what Whitney's talking about,
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: delayed reaction. Right, So you get your trigger, you have
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: your exposure thought, you have the obsession, which is exposure
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: to the idea, and it's that splinter in your brain
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: and it's bothering you. What if it's this, what if
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: it's that?
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Oh my god?
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: And like then the compulsion arrives. I need to check this,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: I need to seek reassurance. I need to google the
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: symptoms and cross examine myself and convince myself it's not real,
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: or talk to a professional and be reassured that it's
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: not real or whatever it is. But the very first
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: step is trying to just slow that down because we'll
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: try to get you to stop it eventually. But that
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: never's a great place to start, right because we come
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: to go, just don't do that thing. Yeah, you know, like,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: what do you mean, don't scratch it? And we're like,
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: if you don't scratch it, it gets better. Yeah, but
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: you're going to have to feel itchy as shit. Yeah,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: and it's gonna be really, really uncomfortable. So in the
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: beginning we go, hold on, before you scratch it, I
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: want you to count to sixty in your head, and
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: then yeah, you're gonna give it a scratch. And we're
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: also going to control how much you scratch it. Right,
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: you can scratch for exactly five seconds, and then you're
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: gonna put your hand away and you cannot scratch again.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: Set your timer. You cannot scratch again for another ten minutes.
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: I've been watching squid games and it sounds like this
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: could be on.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: There would squid games count, by the way, because I
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: was gonna watch No.
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: Shit, this sounds like one of those games.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, scratching it so delayed reaction DRP is a huge
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: part of it. I mean the other one is ERP
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: exposure and in like exposure and reaction processing is really
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: difficult with health stuff because I don't know how to
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: do that, like in a real way can expose you
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: to your phobia. Your phobia is something that's terminal illness, like, yeah,
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: besides reading books about people that have that, which is
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: only going to exacerbate the fear.
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: Right we're kind of sitting with I mean, the writer
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: said they have this autoimmune disease, which, oh my gosh,
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: anyone dealing with those, I just feel feel feel for you.
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: That is the worst.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: And so.
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: They've kind of already experienced something that is a real struggle.
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: And so it's almost like, hey, what happened when you
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: found out ya that you've had it since you were
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: or you found out when you were a child or
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: really young that you had that and you've dealt with it.
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: You know, it's kind of like, well, yeah, you might
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: have something like we all I could have cancer. It's
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: it could be a thing like and so if you
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: do what does that mean?
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: Oh?
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: You just you go meet with the doctor, You take
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: the steps, you do the things. So it's kind of like, yeah,
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: any of us could have devastating things happen to the
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: right thing.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: And I'm glad you brought up the autoimmune because I
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: think we've seen a lot of people. I don't know
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: if if you've had this experience, Whitney, but like, what
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: I've seen is people that are experiencing like psychosomatic disorders
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: or have autoimmune diseases like FIBROMYALGA or something like that,
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: their mental health is so woven in to their physical health,
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: and so they're stressed and their cortisol levels are high,
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: or they're having an anxious spiral, it immediately feeds back
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: into an exacerbation of their physical symptoms, which of course
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: flags back to their anxiety. And they're like, Jim, I'm
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: not making this ship up. I am feeling these things
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: and having to kind of sit with them and say
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: I believe you. I'm not trying to fight you on that.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: And we know that the mind body relationship is really complex,
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: and I want to kind of put an ice pack
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: on the one thing we can.
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: Well, it kind of goes back to what we talked
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: about this last week, when we talked about the time
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: that you and I spent working at LBRC with doctor Paul,
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: like and you know, dealing with chronic pain and just
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: the idea that like all pain is real, pain is real,
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: and that that includes emotional pain that's wrapped up around
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: the physical pain. So you know, we we have to
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: treat that as like a real thing and but and
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: it and and not dismiss it. Yeah. So it's like, oh, well,
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: this pain is real, this physical pain, but the rest
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: of this, this is just in your head, right, and
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: from the brain's perspective, it doesn't matter, right, it's all real, yes,
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: and yeah, so you kind of have to deal with
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: that piece too. Yeah.
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: I was thinking, Uh, my neighbor, I'm pretty close with
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: has Hashi motoves disease.
• 24:13
  Speaker 6: And she I still have that and I still don't
• 24:17
  Speaker 6: know what it is. Yeah, I know it does checked out.
• 24:20
  Speaker 6: I should really, Yeah, shellfish, and.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: This is an intervention.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: There is no girl.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: This whole letter was stage to get to this. We
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: wanted to talk to you about you.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: Here we are.
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: I'm like, did I say it right, Jim? I mentioned
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: motives the right way.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: I like that you look to me as the authority
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: on word.
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: No, I mean for intervention from remember.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: Thank you can't even follow his own bit.
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: Sorry, I thought I was playing into it, just like what.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: Thank you?
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: I got direct. So my neighbor who has been diagnosed
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: with this, she's a little bit older than me, and
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: so she's also going through the different like hormonal changes,
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: and we were talking the other day because she seemed
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: really down. There's just like a vibe, and I kind
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: of checked in with her and she was like yeah.
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: She literally responded to me, she goes, I don't know,
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: it could like I do feel kind of like I'm
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: in a lull, and Mental Health Whitney's over here like
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: definitely not diagnosing her. What I kind of mentioned is
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: like have you thought about, you know, any extra help
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: or you know, like some helpless depression And her response
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: is kind of like, well, I don't know, because part
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: of me is like if I just eat the right diet,
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: like this very strict diet that goes along with autoimmune disorders,
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: if I eat that diet, I feel so much better.
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: But it's like a damn near impossible diet. It's like
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: no tomatoes because they're inflammatory, and like it's not even
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: just vegetables and fruit, it's like nothing except specific anyway foods.
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: She's like, if I really follow that though, by the way,
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: she has like teenagers that live in her house, I'm like,
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: good luck with that. Com No, And so she's like,
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: it could be that, or it could be my stress levels,
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: you know, is a parent, or it could be that.
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: She's like, it could be anything. She's like, I don't know,
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: or it could just be hormonal changes that happen naturally.
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: She's like, any of these things could be contributing to it.
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: And it's just, yeah, what you were talking about that connection,
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: and you're like, I don't know where to start.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: It is really really difficult to treat. And you know,
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: this is one of the things I get a lot
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: of anxiety cases, Like that's an area of my practice
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: that I think has done really well. And I think
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: it's interesting to go back to my Yelp reviews, you
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: see a lot of people that are very happy to
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: tell their story of dealing with anxiety and therapy working.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: And I think coming from like lived anxiety experiences, like
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: having my own demons, has given me a lot of
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: tools to like really help people and health. Anxiety is
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: one of the ones that comes up a lot and
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: is really really difficult to treat, you know, because like
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: other forms of anxiety or intrusive thoughts, you can do
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: this thing where you can kind of like rationally argue
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: against it and kind of like put things to the
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: tech and kind of get to a place where it's like, hey,
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: I'm willing to accept the risk, Like what if my
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: wife leaves me. It's like, okay, let's talk through that,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: and you can get them to this place where they
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: can simulate that and say it will be okay. But
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: with health anxiety, it's like what if I have a
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: terminal disease that sneaks up on me in the middle
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: of the night. And it's like, yeah, this is.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: Very interesting because I just I had this same thought
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: when Whitney was talking about five minutes ago, which is
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: just the correlation of this with and this is probably
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: a bad analogy to use, but with like conspiracy theorists, Okay,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: with the idea that, like with conspiracy again, yeah.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: Paton dot COM's last therapy, you can figure out which
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: one of the hosts.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: I feel like, no, But like with the conspiracy theorists,
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: it's not that the whole thing is ridiculous. There's always
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: one there that's like, oh, well, this piece we know
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: is true, it's all the shit that then is built
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: around it. Yes. It kind of reminds me of this
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: where it's like, you know, well, the autoimmune piece we
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: know is is true. Yes, And so now it's it
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: becomes difficult because we can't say it's like, oh, get
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: you're you're making all of this up or all of
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: this is exaggerated, yes, and then it becomes difficult to
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: be able to identify and distinguish well, this part might
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: be exaggerated, but this part seems to be consultant, and it.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: Tries to validate every other clue, right, because like you
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: try to explain to people like, hey, also, the United
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: States government can just be incompetent about things, right. It
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: doesn't always have to be a cover up. It can
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: just be that they're bad at government. And it's like no, no, no, no, no,
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: you gotta don't be naive, Jim. You see it all
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: in it. It's like they're all masterminds. They're all puppets,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: you know, they're fucking playing the strings. And the same
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: thing with Hell that's like, oh my gosh, I'm feeling
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: something in my leg. That can only mean that I
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: have a nerve disorder, something big, or something's maybe there's
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: a tumor around my spine and it's like no, it
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: could also just be that your body is an old
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: wooden house and it just makes fucking noise and like
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: creaks and things happen, and there doesn't have to be
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: an explanation. You are a bag of electricity and muscles
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: and all sorts of weird shit that we barely understand.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: That is all changing day to day by how many
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: amino acids you had today and fucking water and what
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: time it is and barometric pressure, like all those things
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: can't exist and none of them have to be relevant
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: to your personal health. And you do have an autoimmune
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: disorder and you do go through things. But taking that
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: stuff with that grain of salt and that ability to
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: sort of moderate our reaction to it, right, that's gonna
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: be everything. And I like that you and your counselor
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: are already looking at this and saying, look, we don't
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: need to diagnose this, we don't need to call it
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: a name. But if we relate to people who scratch
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: the mosquito bite and it gets worse, here are things
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: that they do to make that better and so like,
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: I love that you guys are already working on this.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's really great resources out there. One of
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: my faceavorite resources is the OCD Workbook, and I have
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: that downloaded and I have slice in chapters, and that's
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: homework that I always give people that are dealing with this,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: because there's absolutely chapter in there. Going back to what
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: you said, Whitney, just about this like medical o c D.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: And it's also like contamination o c D, which is
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: like fear of like cat to catch COVID or AIDS
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: or something like that. It's going to hit me all
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: out of nowhere.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: How hard did you work on going through the OCD
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: work Book?
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: And I really like marking it up and putting in
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: different book marks and everything obsessively.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, I.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: Left no page unturned.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I felt like I really had to get
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: that done. You had to.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: It was a mission from God. Left the house, came
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: check it. Yeah, let's circle it again. So, I mean
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: there's really great resources out there.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: Writer.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: But you know, interesting little side note here about that
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: word hypochondria. So when we were being trained, we were
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: on I think all of us on d s M
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: four yeah, and ds M four, including ja doctor Smith. Uh,
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: you know, in in DSM four, hypochondriasis existed and there
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: was a diagnos set. Indeed, I can say that they
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: got rid of it, and so we don't actually have
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: that disorder anymore now. It was subsumed into like psychosomatics
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: and then also just generalized anxiety disorders with an illness subset,
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: so like we still have it. We diagnosed people, we
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: diagnose it as anxiety now usually and so it's this
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: is a tricky one because it's in that nether space
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: between is it more like OCD or is it more
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: like generalized before obsessively? But yeah, so there is a
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: diagnosis for this writer. It might not even be OCD.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: It could be an anxiety disorder with an illness kind
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: of factor or psychosomatic factors, which, by the way, if
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: you have like fibromyalge or something like that. It's really
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: tricky because it is one hundred percent medical disorder and
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: if we're being fair, it's one hundred percent a mental
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: component as well, right, and it like it easily touches
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: everything in psychosomatic disorder because it is there is no
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: difference between your mind and your body. There is only
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: one thing. Yeah, and it's all touching, it's all connected,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: it's all radar, and whenever you're scanning to find out
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: if you're okay, your body gives signals to different parts
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: of your you know, muscles and stuff, and you get
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: pain and that it's just one of the signals that has.
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: I worked with the woman years ago. This is purely
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: an anecdotal story. Worked with the woman years ago. She
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: said she had fibermiologia and you know, constant pain from that,
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: and of course that affected her mental health as well.
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: And then found out that she did not have fibermiologia,
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: but she had convinced herself that she did, oh wow,
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: and had many of the symptoms of this, and like.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, hardcore stuff. Wow wow. Probably like somebody could have
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: written a paper about this woman. I believe it though.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: I believe. You know, fibromyologia is kind of like IBS
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: and other ones. It's a diagnosis of lack of evidence.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: So when we can't find anything else he's sets, we
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: use this as a catch all name, right, and it's
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: almost like voodoo mystery box, like we don't really know
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: what it is. We know what it isn't That's what
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: my doctor calls it, yeah, voodoo mystery. Yeah, well you
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: do see that southern doctor, so you know.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: He's actually an alligator with a top hat. Oh man,
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: I got a show.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: Is gumble in the office. Rails gets lollipops. That's right,
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: not not a doctor alligator.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: You don't share enough. I don't give you no gum ball.
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: You will still get some French bread though everybody gets
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: the French bread.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: So that's the solution, writer, is go find bread qualified
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: alligator doctor who will do the mystery voodoo techniques. But no,
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: do look into the counter the interventions for O c D.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: I like that you have the auDA van. I'd be
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: curious what your doctors want to do if they do
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: want to explore more like SSRI options or SNRI options,
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: or even things like gabapentin and like other things that
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: might like calm down neurological signals. Again, we don't give
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: medical advice, you know, it's certainly out of our scope
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: even if you were our patient. But if you were
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: my patient, I would be referring you to a psychiatrist
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: to get that extra like support and medical consultation, especially
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: because sometimes if we can dampen down some of those
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: anxiety signals, and then if we notice a correlation with
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: pain signals and embody psychosomatic signals, then we realize we're
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: barking up the right tree. And that doesn't necessarily mean
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: you will never ever have an illness that needs to
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: be treated or anything like that, but we want to
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: address this. And I tell my patients this all the time.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: We want the anxiety to get better, not just so
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: that you don't have to suffer with anxiety, but because
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: I want you to be able to rightly and accurately
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: discern and navigate your health down the road. And if
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: your brain is crying wolf every single you know, month,
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: then one day we might miss a real signal that
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: we needed your attention on. So we need to write
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: size this. We need to get that relationship under control,
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: and I hope you'll throw every possible tool at it ultimately. Yeah,
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: but medicine is probably.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: Go to good question, really good, great question.
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, We've had some really good mind body ones, Like
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you what.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: I went ahead and googled hashmotos for the first time
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: after being diagnosed with it years ago.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: Like, while I remember when you came in and you're like.
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: Next the opposite of googling.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: All yeah, yeah, I.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: Got around. It's a good time in good time. But
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you what this explains a lot, fatigue, weight gain.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: I knew it had to be some other problem that
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: not the beer drinking. Yeah, sensitivity of cold definitely got that.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: Must like stiffness, the knees, the problems you have.
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, you just said that it hurts all the time.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: All making sense to making sense. Really proud of you, buddy,
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: it's doing great, good.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: For you years. I'll seek treatment this.
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: You don't want to rush anything here, and I don't
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: want you to get ahead of it. Don't get ahead
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: of your skis. Go at your own base anyway. Writer,
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: Good luck with that. Keep us in the loop, let
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: us know what resources work for you. We always love
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: to share these answers online with the community. And uh,
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: thank you again. And so we're gonna take a quick
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: break and when we come back, we're talking about feelings.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: You're listening to pot theory inside my today.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: This episode is brought to you by Ben Don, Melia,
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: Richard Macy, Sonny Boy, Thunder Cooter, Falcon, Scoop, Slipper, Kaya, Motherfucker, Sander, Mickle,
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: Elena sam Owen, and Jake Steiner. And if you would
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: like to sponsor the show, become a theraproducer patron dot
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: com slash therapy. It's the moment Jim has been waiting
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: for us. Do it inside Out Trivia?
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: Yes, I haven't seen you haven't seen the second one?
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: You're about to get dunked on?
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: Okay, I haven't seen any watched the first one.
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: I don't remember if I've seen the first one or
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: just saw the previews for it. That's the one with
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: all the emotions in there.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: For all I care. Let's go Jacob Europe first. What
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: is the first memory orb we see in the original
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: Inside Out film? And what emotion does it represents?
• 37:18
  Speaker 5: Oh?
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: Oh sure, that's the blue one, and I believe it
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: represents go fund yourself.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: I will give you points for that. I give moving
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: on options two points. I guess if he wants options,
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: I got the two points, Jimmy ympathetically. The options would
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: be Riley's first word, Joy, Riley's first laugh, Joy Riley
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: is learning to walk, fear. Riley's first hug sadness.
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: Yes, ah, I don't know why you're looking at me, Jim,
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: Because you've already answered it.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've already given points hypothetically. It's one of the
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: joy ones. You are correct again. Wait a minute, Riley's
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: first laugh Joy Good job.
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: Okay, I thought babies came out of the womb crying.
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: Though this doesn't add a movie. Okay, go on questioning everything.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: Also, they're not cartoons.
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's debatable, Whitney.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: What is the name of the cool new headquarters console
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: installed during Riley's adolescence in The Inside Out too?
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: I haven't seen it, so options.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: The Puberty board, the Mega console, the teen Edition console,
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: or the emote Omadic.
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: Gotta be the puberty one, Rightberty is a big word
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: for this kind of movie, right, Yeah.
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: Read the other three again. Besides Puberty, the.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: Mega console, the teen Edition console, that's my number two.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: The emote Omadic. Jim also nodded. Jim also nodded the
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: tea I was going.
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: To say, I should have been.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: I'll go with c whatever.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: The the teen Edition console it is, b the Mega console, Mega,
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: I would.
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: Guess the emotomatic.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: Next choices, I'm just going for the deep cuts on
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: this thing, guys, I don't know. I didn't know any
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: of those those last two. Jim probably fucked.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: I knew it was Joy, but I don't think I
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: would have picked which one because I thought it was
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: Her first memory was the mom or something like you
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: feeling warmth?
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: So yeah, easy.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: One idea of core memories shaping Riley's personal islands first
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: come into the movie at a minute insects, I.
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: Like weighted trivia get handicapped on this, I didn't, Jim
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: super a few minutes ago.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: My balloon has descended quite a bit.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: What psychological concept is reflected in the idea of core
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: memories shaping Riley's personal islands, for example, family island, hockey island.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: Give me the options, cognitive behavioral therapy, attachment theory, identity formation,
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: emotional contingent, emotional contingent.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: Contagion, contagion.
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: There it is.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: I love you literate, I am not. I'm not literate.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: I'll take That's why I didn't.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: That's why I didn't google hash motives.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: It's honestly because I couldn't spell, was sounding it out.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: I got a.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: Voice to text.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: I'll take c the identity one correct for half a point.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very good.
• 41:13
  Speaker 7: Uh.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: In Inside Out Joy, initially struggles to accept the role
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: of sadness. What real life psychological principle? Does this reflect?
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: Emotional suppression, emotional regulation and balance? Mood disorders are cognitive dissonance.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: Ay a, I'm gonna say b Yeah, I'm gonna say
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: emotional regulation and balance. I think Jacob's right. Jacob is
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: not right, I am It is emotional regulation balance.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: That's what I remember.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: Is another point? All right? Three points for me, two
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: points for Jacob, A point for Whitney. What the hell? Yeah?
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: Half points? All right?
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: Well, it's a neck and neck game, so Job's honestly
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: doing better than I thought he would be at this point.
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: Well, speaking of feelings, the next question is from Garrett Feelings. Hey, everyone,
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: I struggle with making two ideas. I've heard a lot
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: around mental health coexist. Number One, feelings aren't facts. This
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: is usually used when speaking of one's own feelings. Number Two,
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: others feelings are valid and should not be dismissed. If
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: my feelings aren't facts, then why do I treat others
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: feelings as facts?
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: You got them.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: I'm not trying to argue one or the other is wrong.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: I'm more just my of y'all's perspectives with how these
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: two ideas interact. Fucking you in the face, Garrett of
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: that one.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: Shit, I love this question. That's a good one.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: You are completely right.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: We will see ourselves out.
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: This is it the season. Now we can become a
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: classic finally breaking bad.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: This is a great question because this is something that
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: is because I've actually had this exact same thought. Yeah,
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: and I think it's I don't want to go first
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: on this one.
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: I'll shoot my shot and then let then let it
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: go after what about doctor Jacob?
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: Just kidding, I got it.
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: We're done. So the way I kind of see this
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: is feelings aren't facts is true, So because we feel
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: a certain way doesn't mean it's true. I see that
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: as let's say you and I are in uh an argument,
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: Like Nick, you hurt my feelings. It was really upset
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: me when you didn't text me back the other night
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: or something like that, and uh, your goal in not
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: texting back was not to hurt me. So my feelings
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: are not facts. My feelings are valid though, because I
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: was hurt, But the fact is you were not trying
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: to hurt me. That's my best shot. Like that.
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: I like that, No to me?
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: Writer this isn't that complex. And I think this is
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: something we bump into a lot, because whenever when I
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: do couples therapy, this comes up because I'll say, like
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: I'll use that famous phrase when trying to help a
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: person deal with some anxiety, but then the partner will go,
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, get them Jim, and like they start
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: going out. Yeah, feelings aren't facts. I told you that
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: you're you're wrong, and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: dial that shit down. Like they're trying to weaponize that
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: to push away from their partner or whatever. The reality
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: is this like feelings like take my anxiety for example,
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: like I've I've gone on the show you know well
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: known for this, like that I have an anxiety problem.
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: So my experience of anxiety is real. And if you
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: are my friend and you care about me, it would
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: be silly of you to be dismissive of that. You
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: would not make me feel any better by simply telling
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: me that I am just wrong. All the time.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: Being said you are, I was going to support that
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: because if if it were true, Jacob and I would
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: have discovered this year.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: Yea, yeah, yeah, solved it.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And he's wrong, and it's great, Jacob, I can
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: verify that that does worked. If you perhaps I have
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: not given up yet that we're gonna we're gonna this thing.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: Thanks buddy. That persistence, that's real friendship. That's that's how
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: I know. No, But like the the experience of my fear,
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: the experience of my emotion, my feeling, that is a reality,
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: and in that sense, it is factually occurring right now,
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: And if you would like to like address me or
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: interact with me, it is a reality that you're going
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: to have to show some amount of respect for and
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: deference toward. That doesn't mean you have to agree with it. I,
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: as a therapist certainly confront people's false feelings all the time.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: I am constantly helping them crawl out of the prison
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: of anxiety. But I don't do that by just telling
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: them this isn't real. Stop feeling that your feelings aren't valid. Right,
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: I start with, I see your feeling, and I understand
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: your feeling. I would feel that way too if I
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: thought that freckle on my knee was terminal melanoma and
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: I had months to live. If I believed, as you believe,
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: that that thing represents what you've concluded it does I
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: too would feel that way. I would feel unloved if
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: I thought, as you think that I didn't care enough
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: to text you back the other day, if I thought that,
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: I would feel that if I was an idiot, like
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: I was an idiot, Like you're dumb ass. So I'm
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: recognizing that your feeling has come to you organically, that
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: you're not being deceptive or dishonest, that you're not a
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: dumb person. I understand where it is coming from. Now
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: as a therapist, I am also going to help you
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: write size your reaction to the thing that you're fearing,
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: and I will add context to that. And this is
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: where that famous phrase feelings aren't facts. Is where we're
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: trying to help the person loosen their grip on the
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: conclusion so their reactions can adjust. And like Jim, who
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: has an anxiety disorder, it would not be very helpful
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: to me if you were dismissive of me. I need
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: you to come to me and say, Jim, I understand
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: why you're scared of this. I understand why you feel
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: this way. It sounds like this is what you're going through.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: And when I understand that, you get me that you
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: see me accurately. Now I feel safe listening to you.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: But when you're dismissive of me and you say you're
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: always in your head about the shit, Jim, it's dumb,
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: it's not real. When you're gonna grow up, okay, fuck you.
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: You're an unsafe person. And now I'm just gonna sit
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: here in sadness and torment and you've done nothing for
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: me right, and that's going to divide our relationship. But
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: whenever you join with me, you're not validating that I
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: am right that I should be scared, but you're understanding
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: where I am coming from, and you're giving me some
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: amount of deference to say, I get why you've organically
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: landed on that conclusion. I would also like to offer
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: some perspective. I think that maybe you're being a little
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: too fearful of this. Have you considered these things Earlier?
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: We were talking about health fears, and Whitney was bringing
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: up something that we would say to somebody if they said,
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: I'm scared to have cancer. What if I have cancer
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: and I die? And then you might say to them,
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: did you know that X number of people survive cancer?
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: Did you know that did you know that cancer caught
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: in certain stages has x percentage of success being treated.
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: Did you know that if you were diagnosed with cancer,
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: that is not a bullet to the head. It's not
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: a death sentence instantly. A lot of people get diagnosed
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: with cancer. It turns out there's an entire portion of
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: healthcare called on that just treats this, and they're good
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: at their jobs, and it's very possible to treat cancer.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: A lot of people survive cancer. Have you considered that
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: as part of your fear? And what we're doing is
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: we're loosening your grip on this thing. Because before your
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: feeling was convincing you of a fact that you are
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: going to die immediately. We're helping disabuse you of that
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: link right to loosen that conclusion. If I believed I
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: had terminal cancer like you, I too would be reacting
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: the way you are reacting. But can we look at
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: that question of terminal cancer first, and if we can
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: loosen our grip on that conclusion, leave room for doubt?
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: Learn these cognitive behavioral techniques taken the thought to court,
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: looking for zebras and horses. Understanding the difference, how we
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: would self soothe if we can do that the feeling
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: will respond accurately as we get a better understanding of
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: the facts. That's the difference between these two things.
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: Unfortunately, by the time Jim finishes explaining all that to you,
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: you will have died from the cancer.
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: Probably it does take It's not it gets you, you know,
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: it does strikes, it sneaks up. It's like a seagull
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: at the beach.
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: Oh turned out that did have cancer a whole time.
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: Is the face well, yeah, I mean it's kind of
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: like it's valid to be scared of cancer because some
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: people die, but we're going to challenge it and it's
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: not fully factual.
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: Is basically well, and this goes back to like cognitive
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: behavioral therapy treatments for anxiety. One of the tricks we
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: try to teach people is to remember that you are
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: not completely powerless. Because when my anxiety is going off,
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: my anxiety turns into a black and white thinking. And Nick,
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: who's had to watch me go through the ship, has.
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: Seen me go through.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: He's seen me go through it. So Jacob, I've had
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: a couple of meltdowns and like when that's happened, they've
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: both witnessed that. I will tell them here's what I'm
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: afraid of happening, and they'll kind of stare at me, like,
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: so you're telling us you're scared of the scary thing,
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: and your brain immediately jumps ten years into the future
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: of that possibility, finds the only possible outcome that would
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: be the worst of all outcomes, And not only do
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: you think that's going to happen, you're convinced it is.
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: There's nothing you can do about it that between this
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: moment and that peril moment, there's not an infinity of
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: options that you could exercise along the way to help
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: make this better. Like the cancer example, even if you
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: did have cancer, it doesn't mean it's a bullet to
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: the head. You could go get treatment. There's something called chemo.
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: There's radiation, there's surgery, there's all kinds of there's things
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: you're overlooking that are part of this right, And this
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: is again disabusing somebody of the conclusion they have reached.
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: And that's what we mean by feelings aren't facts. We're
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: not trying to like, diminish or disrespect them or tell
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: them they're wrong. We're trying to help loosen the emotional
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: grip on the conclusion they have reached. Your feeling is
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: telling you you are doomed, but the fact is probably
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: not that.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: So I feel like we're all pretty much going to
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: be saying the same thing, but just in a different way. Yeah,
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: because I think Garrett's point here I totally agree with.
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: And I've been in the exact situation where like, for
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: things that happen to me and I feel a certain way,
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: I've actually had that thought to myself, Okay, feelings aren't facts, right, Okay,
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: I feel this way, but that's not the way it's
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: necessarily going to be. And that's my way of resolving
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: the situation too, to bring it back down to a
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: manageable piece that I can I can deal with and
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: I can cope with. But then working with other people
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: in my life and like they're expressing their feelings and like, okay,
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: but I have to respect that feeling because that feeling
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: isn't a fact. If my feelings aren't facts, those feelings
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: aren't facts either. But at the end of the day,
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: what it's really about is what are we trying to accomplishes?
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: What is our goal here?
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: When it comes to me, I already understand, like I
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: can validate my own feelings. I'm not in a situation
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: where I need my feelings to be validated. No, you're not,
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: thank you. I don't know what we needed that.
• 53:07
  Speaker 6: You.
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: Feelings the anti validator.
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: But like, I'm at the point right where where I
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: need to I need to be able to focus. I
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: need to kind of clear the fog, all right. So
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: that's why feelings aren't facts helps me do That helps
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: me focus in on what I need to do. When
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: I'm working with someone else and they're expressing their emotions,
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: that's still true. Feelings aren't facts, but it's not necessarily
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: helpful in the moment. What's helpful in the moment is
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: being able to Yeah, agreement with the way that you
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: malicious compliance?
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: She with you wasn't almost she would just disagree with me.
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: So like with other people, like I, can you know
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: their feelings? Yeah, I could go down that road and
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: be like, feelings aren't facts, okay, and then what's going
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: to happen? Okay, then I'm going to have more issues
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: that I'm going to have to deal with as opposed
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: to being able. What that person needs is that person
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: needs validation. They need to be heard, and they need
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: to they need the other person to be able to
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: empathize with that situation. It goes back to one of
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: the things that I've talked about on the show before
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: when we talk about apologizing and how to apologize with
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: meaning right. It's not just saying I'm sorry, but it's
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: saying i'm sorry. It's being specific for what happened and
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: also validating the other person's position. If I was in
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: your situation looking at what I did, I can see
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: how you felt that way, and you have a right
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: to feel that way. That's validation, and that's what that
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: person needs. It's not necessarily that they need to hear, well,
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: your feelings are wrong and you need to right size
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: these and feelings aren't fas. That's not going to help you.
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: What's going to help you is validating that person's experience.
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: And it doesn't mean so sorry that you feel that way.
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah I'm so sorry.
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: That job still job.
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: But this goes back to like the other half of
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: that too, because I think some people say so great,
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: I'm supposed validate people even though they're wrong, and I
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: don't think that's what you're saying at all. No, No,
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: not with apology, Like Lesson was on starting with that
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: and then you might offer. But the truth is I
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: was late to our date, not because I didn't care
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: about you or don't value your time, but because Las
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: Vegas is under perpetual construction and I misjudged it. So
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: what I failed to do was rightly assume traffic.
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: You think you think I'm malicious and I don't love you.
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: In reality, I'm an idiot. Yeah, I'm prepared for.
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: What is the old saying, never attribute to malice, what
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: can be attributed to.
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: The stupid?
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: Trust me, it's that I'm dumb.
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: I like you a lot, nothing to do with it.
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: I don't love you, but for different things. Trust me.
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: I wanted dinner tonight. I wanted to Yeah, So I
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: get I get it, Garrett, because it does seem like
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: we kind of speak out of two sides of our
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: mouth when we say these things. But I think both
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: are valid, and it's just from the perspective that they're viewed.
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's also when the tool has used. I
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: think your point about utility is everything right, because as
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: a therapist, we always start from trying to understand the
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: inner world. Right, And even though we might say I
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: don't think they're they're correct. I think that their conclusions
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: about the situation are way off. We know, we can't
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: just say that at them, and that's a rookie mistake
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: of yeah, yeah, yeah, this is one thing that that
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: fis second.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, I think the three of us, four of us, Yeah,
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: and our professional experience, our professional experience has figured out
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: very carefully, like you kind of know, like you hear,
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: sometimes your client will say something and like the rookie
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: mistake is to jump in and be like, well, actually, yeah,
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: it's been wrong. Yeah, No, that that serves no purpose.
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, the important thing is that this person sees
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: this as reality. Right, That's all we need to know. Yeah,
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: we operate from that understanding, and from that understanding, all
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: of their behaviors make perfect sense. Given what they're understanding.
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: Is nobody cares how much, you know, until they know
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: that you care. And this is something a lot of
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: couples go wrong with too, is you know, let's say
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: the you got a couple, You got John and Jessica,
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: and Jessica's crying and John says, oh my god, why
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: is everything okay? And She's like, I'm just so upset
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: because you don't love me. And he's like, oh, no, no, no,
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: I do. There you go, because you were clearly crying
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: under this sad misconception you would believe to lie or
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: believe something not to be true that I cannot fix that.
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I do.
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: Therefore you should stop. Why are you still crying? I
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: don't understand. And she's like, you're being dismissive and you're
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: gaslighting me, and you're a narcissist. You don't understand me.
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: And he's like, I'm none of those things have to do.
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: I'm fixing an error, like yeah, if you're being a
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: budget and you're like, oh my god, we're broke, and
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: I'm like, no, no, you miss line three. You did
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: the math wrong. See, we're not broke. You should no
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: longer be scared like we were broke. You should be
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: reassured that, in fact, we're not broke. I did you
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: a favor by correcting your math. You're welcome and both
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: people are completely right.
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: That's what I do. When I correct my wife, I
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: then follow it up with your welcome.
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah you want to say that quickly. And he's still married. Yeah,
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: this woman has put up.
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: She does she does not listen to anything I said.
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: You're still here. That's great.
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: Ye anyway, So writer, this is fair, and I'm really
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: glad you asked this question because it definitely shows up
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: in therapy. It shows up a couple's work, it shows
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: up in our work right when on this show. Because
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: you hear us validate letters, we always start from trying
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: to understand the human writing the letter, and then you
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: also will hear us challenge some of their conclusions. But
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: we have to earn the right to do that, you know,
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: otherwise people will say if you just write in a
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: letter and we just keep saying you're wrong, it reminds
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: me of that old Bob Newhart sketch, right, stop it.
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: You know, the person's like, I'm scared of them gonna
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: die buried in a box. It's like, okay, stop it,
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: You're not gonna die buried in a box anyway, have
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: a great day. It's like he charges a dollar a
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: minute or whatever, and it's like, there's a reason that
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: doesn't work. There's I was told of my students this
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: the other day. There's a reason people can't just go
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: to the bookstore and buy a book on cong behavioral
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: therapy and just get all better. Right some people, Great,
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: that does work a lot of people need the therapy
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: and you think, well, what are we doing that's different
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: than the book. Well, we're not just sitting down and
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: giving people information, right, YouTube could do that, That doesn't
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: solve it. They need the human interaction to the emotional yoga,
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: look into the conscious mirror and through measuring that change it.
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: And like that's all possible because of the work we do.
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: And that's you know, I think there's a lot of
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: you know, trades that that's part of it. You need
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: that work with another human or else you can't gain
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: the same thing. So yeah, that's part of.
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: What we do.
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: But great questions.
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: I like it.
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: Your question is factual and your feelings are valid, Garrett, both.
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: Can be true.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: We're gonna take another quick break, and when we come back,
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: we're talking about a best friend in therapy. You're listening
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: to pod Therapy.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: Today's episode is brought to you by Ben Leah, Richard Macy,
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: Sunny Boys, Thunder Cooper, Falcon, Scoop, Slipka, Motherfucker, Sandra mcwoffle
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: Elena sam Cone, and Jake Schneider. And if you would
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: like to sponsor the show, become a Therapy producer Matreon
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: dot com. Slash therapy. Okay, where are we at, Jacob?
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: You're up again?
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: Good, Yeah, you're up again?
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 8: Inside Out finally correct? All right, yes, and I'm sorry
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 8: they're not taking your game seriously. I'm taking it as
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 8: seriously as I'm able to.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: That is that I'm giving.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: Yes, that is all that he's gotten. He's left nothing
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: on the table, and I will not listen to you insinuate.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: Otherwise we'll take these headphones off. What happens when Riley's
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: core memories are lost in the movie.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: You should get I mean options, Yeah, it was like
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: a lot.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: Riley experiences emotional numbness. Riley becomes overrun by fear, Riley
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: forgets her family. Riley's emotions becomes stuck in a loop.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: Mm hmm, her core memories disappear. Our lost are lost,
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: stuck in a loop.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: No idiots.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 3: Like they don't have anywhere to go, Like you've never
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: even seen the movie.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: Riley experiences emotional numbness. See Jacob party Glad you didn't
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: get that question. Yeah, all right, Jacob, but what movie
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: is it? From inside Out?
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: I feel like you should just give me all the questions.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: Take blank shots, Jacob, here you go, all right, I'll
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: give you a point if you can get it on
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: the fly.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's how the game works.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: Like Jacob Jacob's Jacob's question, Oh, okay, cool, all right, okay,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: uh Jacob. Yeah, what does bing Bong's sacrifice represent on
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: a psychological level? Zoom type.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 4: That is the first experience of true loss and letting
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 4: something go.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: It's probably.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, one hundred points. The correct answer is the
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: acceptance of loss growing up. Whoa, there, it is fine,
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: it's over.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: Just like he beat a game he didn't know about,
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: did I Probably?
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: That's an extra fifty points to.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: Call it the trivia I answer was the ultimate.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: Game, the ball down the lane, didn't look back.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: Strike yes, strike Jim for one point. Why is Riley
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: unable to create new core memories during her emotional crisis?
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 3: Anxiety?
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: I mean okay, give me options, okay, Joy and sadness
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: are absent from headquarters. Riley is unable to experience happiness.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: Her memory orbs are stuck in the long term memory storage.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: The personality islands are disconnected. The personality islands are connected. Correct, Well,
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: you took options half a pint.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: Oh that's fair. Yeah, now, this is correct.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 4: This is just but I mean this is one of
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 4: these Disney There are a lot of Disney movies out
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 4: there that, like people without kids.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: Can watch and enjoy.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 4: This one is one that is especially geared towards children
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 4: and parents of children.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: It is a very sentimental movie. It's sweet.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 4: IM sure, it's very good. It's Bisney, Disney, Pixart make bad. Yeah,
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 4: they put out good ship.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: But it's it doesn't have mass all the way a
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: lot of other ones.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's for it's it's studying, you know,
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: the child's development. Every time I am in the mood
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: to watch a Pixar Disney movie, I just go back
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: and watch Coco again.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: So good, so good, amazing. Yeah, have you seen Incanto?
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 3: I've seen.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: That's a solid one. All the songs are by who's
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: that guy, Trent, the guy who.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 4: You know?
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: And it's Soul. I think it's fortunate.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Soul is very good. Well, when I quoted earlier,
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: guys said it was racist, jazz I said it was
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: black improvisational music.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: No, you just said you were racist. Oh okay, you
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: could have been talking about well.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: As long as eating can do anything.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: But nobody here has anything good good that won't stand
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: for that. Just want to make that I would.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: I will gladly bear that's fine, is fantastic if you
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: liked Coco and contest is so good.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: What is the purpose of personality? Islands in Riley's mind?
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: This is my question. But if you're going to take
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: a shot at it. They control her actions and decisions,
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: They represent her core values and identity. They store her
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: emotional memories, they regulate her emotional responses. I'm gonna go
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: with b. They represent her core values and it is correct.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: It's it's really amazing.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: It was a friend that likes to play.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: I've so far gotten all of these right, and I'm
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: the one reading the questions the one answer for second place.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: It's clear the man who shot I might have second
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: place wrapped up too. He is both sides in the
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: super Bowl. All right, on to the last one. Best
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: friend in therapy. Oh, this is the one that we
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: got the revision on, And let me open up that
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: version of the letter. My friend's therapy is seriously starting
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: to worry me. Hi, everyone, I need some guidance and
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: would be grateful for any help you can offer. I've
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: tried to keep this concise, but so much of it
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: feels important. If necessary, feel free to do your editing thing.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: I have an ex whom I still care for deeply.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: We were together for roughly a decade, starting in our
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: late teens and early twenties. Eventually, like many young couples,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: we had to part ways. We ended things on painful
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: but amicable terms, and though we now live far apart,
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: we still talk or twice a month. A couple of
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: years ago, my ex began seeing a therapist, and I
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: was thrilled. He's incredibly kind and trusting, so I wasn't
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: surprised that he immediately clicked with his new therapist. He'd
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: come out of sessions beaming about how they'd connected over
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: shared interests and senses of humor. She was young, cool, knowledgeable,
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: and seemed like a perfect fit. He told me that
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: he'd give his therapist emotional pieces of him, and in return,
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: she would give him pieces of her. I've been a
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: long time listener to your podcast since about episode eight.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: Holy shit, Oh here we go. Well, I'm glad you're
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: a longtime listener because no understanding, there's nothing here we
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: get surprise you with you and from what I've learned
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: this relationship seemed off. X told me they are ah.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: X told me that they'd often spend half of their
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: sessions talking about her problems. I pointed out that I
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: was paying her to help him with his issues, but
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: he insisted he didn't mind. He's always been a helper,
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: and I think he felt closer to her by hearing
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: about and helping her with her struggles. Eventually, I think
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: he began seeing therapist as more of a friend. Over time,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: she began canceling sessions frequently, sometimes with a reason, sometimes without,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: and X was so confused and hurt, wondering if he'd
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: done something wrong. Meanwhile, he was in a difficult living
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: situation and desperately needed to move out. The household where
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: X stayed was toxic, and he was having trouble with
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: his sobriety. Eventually, his therapist suggested he move in with
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: her cousin. I'll call this person roommate.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 3: Wait what yeho?
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: Therapist recommended my ex move in with therapist's cousin, and
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: I will now refer to this person as roommate. Therapist
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: cited two reasons.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: One, I wouldn't do that with an acquaintance.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: Reasons one, roommate needed a housemate else he was getting
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: kicked out, and both roommate and X were in the
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: early stages of recovery. Good she thought they could keep
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: each other sober. Oh god, zero, Now I've listened. I've
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: listened to your show enough to suspect this was a
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: huge mistake. And indeed living with another person in early
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: recovery has not gone well for X. Weird docer and
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: really roommate relapsed and has bouts of staying up for days,
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: and X hasn't made the progress he hoped for either.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: On top of that, they're politically incompatible I mean vehemently
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: and diametrically opposed sorts of incompatible. This is something his
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: therapist would have known before putting them together. Therapist, in
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: my opinion, removed X from one terrible situation and placed
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: him right into another. In addition, X has caught his
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: therapist lying, and she's encouraged him to do unethical and
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: at times illegal things. She admitted to being manipulative, and
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: roommate has too. Most recently, X brought up to therapist
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: that he was in the process of applying for a
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: job that he really really wanted to that news, she
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: literally picked up the phone mid session to call the employer,
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: name dropping X's friend who worked at an establishment as
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: a reference, and also mentioning that X is gay, but
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: not one of those gays that you can tell is gay.
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: The therapist said to the employer, to.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: The potential employer, the fuck is going on? This is
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: this is great?
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 3: Who need a process.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: Number?
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: To say? He didn't get the job? And his friend
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: was bombarded with questions about the mysterious gay guy who
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: got his therapist to call and vouch for him. There
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: are so many more stories, but to wrap this up,
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: from what I can see, therapist is not only unprofessional
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: but harmful to ex his life, Yet he doesn't see it.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure what I can do to help either.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: Me and others close to him have considered reporting her
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: to a board, but I'm afraid of it, negatively backsplashing
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: on him to report a therapist. Don't you need concrete,
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: explicit examples of wrongdoing. I can't say anything too strongly
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: about the therapist to X either, because I know he'll
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: shut down. I try to remain open and be an
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: ear when he needs some of that. But there has
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: to be something more or a better way to move forward.
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: It's been several years since he begans seeing the therapist,
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: and it's getting increasingly painful to keep watching and hearing
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: of all the ways she keeps inserting herself into his life.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: I want to keep rooting for him from the sidelines
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: and be there for him, but this is all getting
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: to be ridiculus. List to stick around for sincerely anonymous
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: pronouns are he and him?
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: This is silly. I mean, that is silly.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 3: Have y'all ever seen that's that's.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: Up there, holy ship?
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: So many life code violations life coaching, life coaching violations.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: Like life code violations, Well, I don't know what that is,
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: but they probably life coaches obey the life code I think.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: Don't know that right, including.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: Jacob stick to it firmly.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: This is wild.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: This is so. Here's the thing. Okay, So we get
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: letters all the time about people writing in voicing or
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: expressing concern or frustration with their therapists, and the caveat
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: that we always like fra is we can throw in
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: our two cents. We tend to start from the base
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: understanding that the therapist is trained and knows what they're doing.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 7: We usually okay, because because we are starting, we have
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 7: to we have to assume that, and then we have
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 7: to assume we have to understand we don't know what's
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 7: going on.
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: We're hearing about this from a third on the ground
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: in this particular situation, we're hearing it from someone who
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: is two parties removed right from it, right, and it's
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: still like, this is wild.
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 5: I know we need.
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: And saying, hey, I want to vouch for this guy.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: He's gay, by the way, but he's not one of
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: those gays. He's not leading a parade. But you know,
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: it's so sad, right because like clearly X is hurting,
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: X has bonded, and it is hard to get right,
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: and like, especially if you're a person who, like you know, okay,
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: you're struggling with your own stuff in life, and that
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: could be boundaries, right, it could be like letting bad
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: people in your life or whatever. And like here you
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: are and you've found a bad therapist and now you're
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: letting that person mess with you and like tell you
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: what to do and steer your life in all these
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 1: terrible directions. And like I understand writer's perspective where I
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: don't want to harm that, Like I don't think it's
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 1: my place to pull you away from the therapist.
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 2: This is why I'm I'm a stickler on therapist training.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: But it's also clinical clinical super treatment plans. But that's
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: it's related, but it's not but clinical. The importance of
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 2: clinical supervision because our jobs as clinical supervisors is not
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: only to train, educate, and prepare the next generation of therapists.
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: We also serve a gatekeeping function because some people, not
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: everybody is going to be an astronaut. Some people are
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: not meant to become therapists, and it's the job of
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: the clinical supervisor to be able to identify that and
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: and make a decision shut that ship down. I don't
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: know if you've ever had to do this before.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 5: I have.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: It is a very.
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 3: Jacob doesn't Jacob's been good tonight.
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, he's usually he's usually not good. Yeah, he's good.
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: He's got a hundred points, like he's going for records,
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: getting that thousand yards, he gets that incentive bonus.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: No, I've had to do this before where I've had
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: an intern and I spent a lot of time working
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 2: with this person on and I'll give you an example.
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: So we worked at a residential treatment facility, same one
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: that you were that you were at a different location.
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 2: But all of all of our interns, they all had
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 2: their groups of clients. This therapist would just get frustrated
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: and angry at another therapist because that therapist client was
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: picking on one of her clients.
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: Christ O Lord. Yeah.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 2: And so that was kind of the dynamic. And then
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: we're just like, hey, this is not this is saying
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 2: We've got fifty women here and we put them all
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 2: in one building and small.
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: Somebody's going to and put it on a stick, you know,
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: like this is gonna happen, you know.
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 2: And so but like it was nothing. Everything was personal,
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: like and there's and we worked on this for so
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: long and finally I just I had to write a
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 2: letter to the board and it was like, yeah, this,
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 2: I'm ending my relationship with this therapist. Yeah, and this
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: person should probably not be a therapist man, And uh,
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: it is not easy to do. It's it's it sucks
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: to have to do it, but like it's an important
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 2: role because like this ship shouldn't happen.
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: This person should not be licensed. So students and interns
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: out there, let's count the ways that this person is fine.
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: How many fucking rule breaks did you catch? In this
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 1: very show.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: Every time.
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: Get an IV trip going though get nine one one
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: on speed dial, you will need to be resuscitated by
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: the time they arrived. So okay, a couple of violations here.
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: So one is the just the the the obvious administrative failure. Well, actually, okay,
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: let's let's go all the way back to the beginning here.
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: So a poor therapy approach. When you're over sharing in session,
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: we all will use some what we call self disclosure.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: We will use our personal stories sometimes, but we use
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: that to help your work.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: So, if I have a patient telling me about their anxieties,
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: I may tell them a story about some of my anxieties,
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: and I may choose the amount of vulnerability I want
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: to portray in that and how much sensitive information I
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: might share. But it is for the greater good of
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: here's a story you might relate to. Let's learn from
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: that together.
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: But if I'm just sitting there belly aching about my
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: challenges every day, and that's beyond just relating to you
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: or just making some conversation, making light of something that's
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: happened to me recently or whatever, if it's really spending
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: half the session talking about my real life and soliciting
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: your actual feedback on that shit. There's a violation right there.
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: I don't know that I would take that to ethics.
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't say this is an ethical violation. I would
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: say this is unprofessional and unskilled. Right. And coming back
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: to your point, Nick, if that's my supervis e, we
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: need to train like you're doing this bad. You're doing
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: bad therapy. Let me help you realize. I think I
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: know what you're trying to do. Let me help you
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: right size that and it become skillful. So that was
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: already a big strike right there. Not the end of
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: the world. The next move, I think is the administrative stuff,
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: canceling sessions sporadically all the time. We have something called
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: the expectation of care. Right. People are coming to us
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: for health care, and even if they're not high acuity,
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: they deserve routine and expected healthcare.
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: If a doctor's office keeps shutting down all the fucking
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: time whenever they don't feel like operating, the patients will
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: get sicker. Like that's not okay. So your administrative responsibility
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: is to be available at the level you kind of
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: presented yourself ad as in the beginning, you still have
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: to cancel things that happens, and sometimes it's unavoidable, but
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: to the point where the patient's wondering if it's them,
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: if they've done something wrong.
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 3: That's part of that codependency or investment built. Because even
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 3: if a therapist was canceling often, I still I think
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 3: it would be rare in a healthy dynamic to think
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 3: it's me. You just like, wow, that's what I wonder.
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 3: What's going on with them?
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 7: Right?
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 3: You'd maybe put it more on them, But the fact
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 3: that your ex writer said that, oh, maybe I did
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 3: something wrong, that just speaks to how m mesh they
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 3: like or whatever.
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: And also poor communication from the therapist part. Yeah, right,
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: because we've all had to make cancels. And I've had
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: cancels or something bad happens in the world and like
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: I need to suddenly, or I've had situations where I
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: look at the calendar and I have to cancel for
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: something and I'm like, oh my god, it's this person again.
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: They are so why being on the one spot, Like
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: I've had situations where I have to contact you, You're
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: not going to believe this. I have to cancel this again.
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: But like there is an effort to try to do
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: harm reduction, which I think we have a responsibility to do,
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: which is like, hey, usually.
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 3: It's reschedule, Like, right, you're going to reschedule.
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: I am so sorry this this unique thing has come up.
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: My Tuesday evenings I think are turning out to not
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: be available because I keep having to cancel on you.
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: Let's let's talk about a different day entirely or whatever.
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: So clearly therapists failed there again, is it all the
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: way upon ethical? I would give the benefit of the
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: doubt here and say, again, really bad professionalism. Who was
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 1: your mentor? Like who are you accountable to? You're not
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 1: very good at this, right So, like again, I would
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: still stop short of ethical violation. Setting patient up to
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: move in with a member of the fucking therapy was
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: just by itself, right there?
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 2: Ye full stop. That's only half.
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 1: So you've already violated all the ethics. You violated something
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: called door relationships, which is I have now created a
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: new dynamic with you beyond I am your therapist, you
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: are my patient, and that is the only relationship we have.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: I have match made you into a living situation.
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: We've actually used a very very similar example because I
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: teach a course on clinical supervision.
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 1: You should take this letter, by the way, example, this.
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 2: Is a really great I might no, but we use
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: a very similar example when we talk about ethics, and
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: the vignette that we use is the client gets kicked
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 2: out of their house or or some situation. They're renting someplace,
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 2: and the therapist refers the client to their cousin, who's
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 2: a realtor. Oh yeah, you know, and and like, you know,
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 2: and this is one of those situations where in Vegas
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 2: we look at that and we're like, are you fucking
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: kidding me? That is so stupid. But me, you know,
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: I come from small town Iowa, two thousand people, and
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 2: this ship happens. Yeah, because it's just this is.
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 3: Just yeah, there's two realtors and you're like, well that happens.
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: There is there is. I'm glad you brought that up,
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: because there is room for cultural adjustment in a lot
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 1: of situations, but there's severals on this this one story
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: all by itself, the cousin thing is just a fucking
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: nuclear bomb. Yeah yeah, but like it's unbelievable. So like
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: Strike one students, students and interns out there, you cannot
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 1: take the client and introduce them to a member of
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 1: your family and encourage them to start any kind of
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: relationship with your family member. Because now you can see
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: client at the barbecue. You can now see client at
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: the family or union. Now see client in these other contexts,
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: and you have created a new relationship with that person.
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: They are no longer just your patient. They are now
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: the roommate of your cousin. You shouldn't be seeing them anymore.
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: If they had started off as roommate of your cousin,
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: you would not have taken the case. So you've created
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: a dual relationship. Now, if they accidentally become roommate of
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: your cousin and you didn't facilitate that, that can happen
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: in life. They start dating somebody they didn't know that
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: was your cousin or whatever. Okay, that that's outside of
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 1: your control. But if that were to happen, you would
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: have to take countermeasures and including probably referring them out
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 1: to ensure that you could ever bump into them in
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: the world and cause any harm to them. So already
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: that was bad, but then you got extra bad. You
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 1: poured hot sauce on the ship because you created a
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 1: financial relationship your roommates. That is a financial relationship, which
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 1: means your cousin has financially benefited from you referring your
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: patient to live with them. That is unethical right away,
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: Like that is all sorts of You've just stepped in
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 1: an honestly pilot.
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 2: The only thing missing here is a kickback.
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the cousin sends you the therapist, a fee and
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: the hookup. Here's what didn't happen. Yeah, I'm sure it did.
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 2: I mean if that then we got yatzi.
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 1: I think, yeah, at that point, bingo is on the board.
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 1: Then on top of that, I'm knowingly putting my patient
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 1: who is in early substance abuse recovery into a situation,
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: that is with another person who actively abuses substances.
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 2: This is a therapist who knows nothing about substance whose disorder.
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: This letter screams that. I mean, like I there is
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: no chance this therapist has ever taken even a CEO
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 1: on any of this shit, or has even I think
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: they're an amateur. I think that they're like they have
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: to be an intern or student. This seems like somebody
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: who's literally never been like I like, gotta be right,
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: just born yesterday, Like you you must have never even
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: met an age to have this level of incompetence, Like,
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 1: how would you ever think that that would work? Right,
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 1: I'm just gonna take this match and put it over
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: here in this oil tanker, and I'm sure everything will
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 1: work out.
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah. The example, the analogy I always like to use,
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 2: you know, in situations like this, is like if a
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 2: toddler is learning to walk, they're not holding the hand
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 2: of another toddler. That's perfect, Like that's that is exactly
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 2: what's happening.
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 1: Two people in early recovery living together. I'm sure it'll
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: all work out. So the therapist exceeded their scope because
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: they're probably trying to give advice or treatment or recommendations
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: for treatment. Men pairing you with a sober roommate on
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: something they don't know anything about. And so like all
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: of these problems manifest just in that one story, and
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 1: of course there was all these extra harms.
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 2: So that was a mess.
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: Then the one about I told the or X tells
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: the therapist what they want to do for a job,
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 1: therapist takes it upon themselves to call and serve as
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 1: a referral.
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 3: Right, these are bad because that was so awful.
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 1: How about the part where therapist violates HIPPA by one
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 1: making the call that was already a violation of two
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: revealing client sexuality to the employer.
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 4: By therapist doing this, I would be pissed off if
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 4: just someone I knew did this person.
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, or your professional referral. Let's say that you actually
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 1: had a friend that you were saying, hey, man, could
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 1: you be my referral for this job? And the job
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 1: called your friend and your friend was like, he's gay,
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 1: but not like that. So that's the end of our friendship. Okay,
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: So this is the part that confused me. The therapist
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: was saying, okay, oh my god, there's so many patient
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 1: is talking to therapists. The patient says, I want to
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: wait at company X Y, and therapist says, I know
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 1: somebody who works at company X. I'm going to company
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: X right now and vouch for you.
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 4: They don't usually higher the gaze, but I'm going to
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 4: cover that too, So therapist calls company.
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 2: Don't worry about it, I got it. My name is
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: the game.
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 1: I have a friend that works for your company, and
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: I think my other friend patient would be a great fit.
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: So which one did she out her patient or the
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 1: She also references a friend that she has. I thought
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 1: that the guys, that's how I read the letter.
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I think.
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 1: The therapist should not be contacting anybody and revealing anything
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 1: about patient like that cannot happen unless with paid.
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 3: Like his friend was bombarded with the question even if
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 3: the patient asked.
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 1: You to do that, it seems like you shouldn't do that.
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 1: Where yeah, go ahead.
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 2: Technically it may not be a hippo viylation.
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: If you had permission that in session.
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 2: No, if there's no connection back to how you know
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 2: the person, okay, you're just.
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, you you should hire this person.
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just calling as a reference for if you
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: don't call and say this is one of my patients,
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 2: that's say that.
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 3: So then it's it says his therapist, Like the friend
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 3: was bombarded the questions about the mysterious gay guy who
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 3: got his therapist to call.
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 2: Never mind.
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 1: Trying to steal man.
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 2: You were like, this can't possibly insane.
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 1: About No, they sure should know.
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 3: It makes it makes me seem like if I were
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 3: applying at like Venture whatever, like you're my therapist and
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 3: where we all worked, like and I applied there, and
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 3: then I'm like Oh my buddy, Jim works there, and
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 3: you're myra. Let me call up there. Now, who do
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 3: you apply with?
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 2: Oh?
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 3: Jim works there, my clients blah blah blah, like knows him.
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 1: Unbelievable, that's weird.
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 3: This is insane.
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 2: So should well let me ask you this though? Are there?
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 2: Hold on, let's let's let's go on. I want to
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 2: Let's let's give the therapist a chance. Are there any
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 2: ethical violations the therapists didn't violate.
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: I don't think therapist is having sex with clients. But
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: I'm not going out.
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: Well, can we can we give? What about?
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 1: Have you seen John Mulaney's.
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 2: Okay?
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 1: In his new stand up, he tells the story about
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 1: how his drug dealer was dealing with drugs for a
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 1: long time and and one day he calls to break
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 1: up with his drug dealer from rehab and the drug
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 1: dealers really proud of him, and he's like, this is
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 1: great for you, John, I'm so proud of you. This
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: is great, And he's like, thanks, man, I really thought
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: you'd be more upset. And drug dealer was like, I
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 1: don't deal drugs. I'm professionally a painter, and John was.
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 2: Like what why did?
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 1: But you don't me drugs, Like yeah, because you kept
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 1: asking me, and I'm scared you were going to get
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 1: them from somebody else. So I found them and got
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 1: you drugs. I don't deal drugs. You're the only guy
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 1: I bring drugs to. Was like, you pretended to be
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: a drug dealer to help me. I think that's what's
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 1: going on here. I feel like this person's not a therapist.
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 1: But they were in the building and like Fred like
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 1: X came into this building, was like, oh, are you
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: my therapist? They're like I can't be Yeah, you seem
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 1: to need to talk like down, and like that's why
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: they've been canceling and stuff because they can't get into
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 1: the building. But they're really like the maintenance lady or something. Yeah,
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 1: I think that's what's really going on. Like I feel
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 1: like this person is pretending to be a therapist. That
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 1: makes the most sense and thought of anything I've heard,
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 1: So it does right, Like she's just the custodian.
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 2: She was there that day and she's.
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 3: Like, oh, my cousin needs you.
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 2: Hear the real.
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: Therapist just left. There was a family emergency. But you
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: seem like, here's my personal number if you just tell
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: it that way, you go, oh my god, bless her.
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 1: Like she's trying. She has no idea what she's doing
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 1: driving through a snowstore. Man, she's way over. She's trying
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 1: her best. So I think if we look at it
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: that way, she's really the hero of the story.
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: She's done a lot of good. Really half the session
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 1: now you talked about really good. Yeah, She's like, look,
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 1: I don't have a lot of resources or tools, but like,
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 1: let me tell you how I I'm doing drugs. It's
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 1: starting at up.
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 2: I got a cousin that needs a room. Yeah, maybe
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 2: I can help solve a practice.
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 1: You need a job, all right, let me like just
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 1: make a call. I don't know, I know how to call.
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 2: People like that.
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 3: My buddy Vinny work.
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 1: We could work it out. So do we report this person?
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 1: What are our feelings? Every state's different about this.
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is where it's going to be really
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 2: dependent on the state. Yeah. Yeah, so.
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 3: If you report this, you're.
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 2: Probably good too. No, so what's going to happen you
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 2: report it that the board's gonna have to send somebody
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 2: to investigate it. How do you even investigate this? Like,
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 2: that's where they're going to run into aprum.
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 1: And you got to keep in mind, writer, it's tricky
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 1: because let's say that I'm working with a member of
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 1: a couple, right, I'm working with wife, and husband thinks
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 1: I'm doing a bad job because wife is let's say,
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 1: standing up to him or something new, and he's like,
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 1: your therapist is poisoning your mind against me. I'm calling
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 1: the board and then like, let's that happens all the time,
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 1: and so people like and so boards have to take
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 1: everything with a grain of salt if you're not the
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 1: injured party. But you say, look, I think this should now. Listen, writer,
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 1: in fairness, if you just tell them this letter, I
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 1: think they're gonna be like, well, holy ship.
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 2: They're gonna definitely. It's really just going to be an
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 2: issue of how did they go about doing that? And
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 2: and this is where every state is different. I mean,
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 2: I'm sure some states can just come in and they
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 2: can just say, hey, uh, this is this complaint was issued.
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 2: We need to see your clinical records, and that's ultimately
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 2: what's going to start. It's going to start with a
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 2: review of clinical documentation, which I'm gonna guess there is
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 2: an old she doesn't have an office well, she's in
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 2: somebody else.
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 3: She's the one going through the drive through or those
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 3: better help. The therapist has sunglasses on inside their house
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 3: and just walking around their health.
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so if there was. But this is what's tough,
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 1: right because if writer I can appreciate, because writer says
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: that's the end of the letter, says, Look, I don't
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 1: know if it's my place, like, if my ex is
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: going to this, I want to try to coach them
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 1: away from it. Is it my place to like just
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 1: shut this lady down? And it's a hard question, Belash.
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 2: Here's the thing I think you. I think you report it. Yeah,
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 2: put it on the board's hands.
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 1: Do you do it anonymously? Do you just say, look,
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 1: I don't feel comfortable providing my inform.
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 2: Could you could? But you can do Yeah, you can
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 2: definitely do that. And you can just say, I mean
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 2: with all of this information here, you just give the
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 2: person's name. Let the board deal with it. Yeah, And
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 2: if the board finds sufficient evidence to be able to
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 2: uh do something to take action in this, they will.
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 2: If they don't or they can't get enough information to
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 2: actually take action, then there's nothing they can do. But
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 2: you at least did your.
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: Part, and I guess it could be anonymous.
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 3: I was going to say, at the very least, uh,
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 3: hopefully if a board investigation was opened up or inquiries
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 3: open up. Hopefully the therapist, the so called therapy.
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: I think it's a custodian Yeah, I do.
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 3: Hopefully at the very least they will change some behaviors
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 3: for the future, like you're at least helping someone down
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 3: the road potentially.
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, as the.
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 4: pH D in the room, I disagree with all three
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 4: of you, you know, I think this is much closer
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 4: to a what do you do when your friend is
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 4: dating someone that you don't like?
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: Okay than anything else.
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, because I think if you report this, you a
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 4: wedge is going to be driven between you and your
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 4: ex who is now your friend.
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like that shit's gonna happen, Okay.
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 4: So like if if you're worried about that relationship, if
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 4: you're worried about like if you're if kind of your
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 4: hierarchy of concerns writer is uh, your your friends overall
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 4: mental health and their mental health care and those types
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 4: of things, And if this is truly altruistic on your
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 4: part and you have no care or you have a
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 4: secondary care about your relationship with this with this person,
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 4: then report away.
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 1: I see.
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 4: But if your main goal is to make sure that
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 4: you preserve that friendship, this relationship that you that the
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 4: two of you have, I think all you can do
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 4: is tell that person, hey, this sounds bizarre to me.
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 2: A lot of this stuff sounds wrong to me.
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna I'm gonna say that, and I'm gonna leave
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 4: it at that, and then when this implodes on itself,
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 4: I will be here for you.
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 2: I see your PhD, and I raise you a personal
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 2: training certificate. Thank you.
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 4: Okay, here's the thing we're getting, so I could win
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 4: that too, able.
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 3: To Jacob's on a health journey.
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 2: With some skin in the game, Tanjman, I I agree
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 2: with everything you said. However, I still think you do it.
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 2: Ok there's why, because I think you could do it.
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 2: Number one, you can do it anonymous. I mean, it's
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 2: certainly the right thing to do to report this. That's
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 2: not that's not a bad thing, because this your your friend,
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 2: isn't this therapist? Only clients, as far as I guess,
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 2: And if that is the case, an anonymous report will.
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 1: Not You're talking about Bill, Yeah, about this only clients?
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 2: Bill?
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 3: Only clients.
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 2: I got dark. We're coming back to that. But Whitney's
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 2: weird only clients emails.
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 5: Appropriate therapist seems in line because still in trying her,
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 5: I think so, I think judgmental, bit hero Okay, which
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 5: is another here's the other thing, all of you.
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 2: This actually was a serious concern that I had. Right,
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 2: if the writer wants to report this to the board,
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 2: the writer is going to have to figure out what
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 2: board this person reports too, in which case I would
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 2: think so, but maybe, I mean, who knows if she's
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 2: if this therapist is even putting that information available? You know,
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 2: is that going to be a social work board, a
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 2: mental health board? Is that going to be? What board?
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 2: Is it? Try? So number one, I would start there.
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 2: I would report it. I would report it anonymously, you know,
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 2: because like if this is happening with your friend, this
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 2: is happening with every single client that this person works,
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 2: you clients, live with her cousin.
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of.
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 2: It's not zero, I'll tell you that. I mean, and
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 2: there's going to be a whole bunch of stuff. And
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 2: when there's an investigation like this, like all the details
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 2: and the information like that isn't going to be known
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 2: to the public, you know, so like your friend is
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 2: not going to find out all of the details and
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 2: then be able to connect the dots and be like,
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 2: oh my god, that's about me. It must be so.
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 2: And so I think the therapist is going to tell him.
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 2: The therapist won't know, okay, Yeah, the therapist won't know, okay.
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 2: So what will happen is because I think if the therapist.
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 4: Learns any of those details of this plaint, then they're
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 4: going to tell the patient.
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 2: Probably. I think you're right. I would be surprised if
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 2: they did. Here's what I think would happen if you
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 2: report this to the board. You know what this is.
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 2: If this gets a report of the board. More most
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 2: likely what's going to happen is the board is going
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 2: to have to investigate. So they're going to send somebody
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 2: and this was they're going to The first thing they're
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 2: going to look at is they're going to look at
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 2: client records. So they're going to say they're going to
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 2: go to the therapist and they're going to say a
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 2: complaint has been filed. They may say here are some
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 2: of the things that have been but it'll be pretty general,
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 2: so it's not going to be very specific.
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 4: I don't think this investigator is going to be like,
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 4: is one of your patients living with your cousin?
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 2: No, Okay, I don't. I don't think so they will
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 2: probably say if I were, I would lean with that.
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 2: Most likely what they would say is they would say
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 2: some to the effect of that their allegations about dual relationships,
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 2: allegations about yeah to a lipa hip of violations, all
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 2: sorts of stuff like that, we need to see a
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 2: sample of your records. And then if I was investigating
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 2: this with this, what I would do is I would
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 2: make sure that one of the records that are reviewed
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 2: was this person clients. But I would yes, but I
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 2: would make it look like it was just a random selection.
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 2: And if that, if that client's file wasn't in there,
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 2: then I'd ask for can you give me five more?
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 2: And I'm going to ask for five more until I
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 2: get that record. Yeah, And then I would I would
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 2: read through all of that, and then I would file
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 2: my complaint based off of everything I've seen. And it's
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 2: not going to be based off of one record, Okay,
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 2: It's going to be based off of a multitude.
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 4: Of Again, assuming this person has multiple times we're kind
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 4: of getting we're getting a little bit into the weeds.
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 1: But like for the writer, I think a couple of
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 1: things here in general information, so I think a lot
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 1: of people have really a lot of misunderstanding about what
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 1: a complaint does. It's not like if a complaint gets
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 1: lodged a therapist immediately gets blackballed out on the street.
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: You know, they're put in prison. Usually even whenever there's
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 1: a finding and so a board has looked into it
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 1: and said, hey, yeah, this is great. This doesn't look good.
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 1: A lot of it comes back to training. Like a
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: lot of times they'll say, okay, we're going to require
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 1: you to get back into this the workshop here because
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 1: clearly you do not understand some shit.
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 2: Which honestly, I think is the most probable outcome. Yes,
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 2: because again, if we're doing you know, unless this, the
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 2: investigator is going to contact the worker at Amazon and
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 2: interview that, which they're not right, They're going to base
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 2: their record solely off of clinical documentation. Maybe they would
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 2: interview some clients, but most likely not, it's going to
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 2: be clinical documentation, which again I'm going to guess is
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 2: complete bullshit.
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 1: Down No great news journal I called on his behalf
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 1: and told the Amazon.
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 2: Man this, what's going to happen is whoever's investigating this
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 2: is going to realize like, Okay, I don't have anything
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 2: to be able to put this person on any kind
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 2: of probation. However, I can say that they need more training,
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 2: and I can require these training.
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 1: And boards are not going to start contacting the patients
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 1: because that causes harm, right, So they don't do that.
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 1: If patients allege something, then sure they're taking their statement
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 1: and they'll follow up them if the patient is being
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 1: spoken about. And again going back to my example of
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 1: if the husband doesn't like the therapy I'm doing with
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 1: the wife, he cannot weaponize the board of examiners to
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 1: harass his wife's therapy, right, So that's not how it works.
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 1: So a couple of different angles on this one. Yes,
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 1: you could do the anonymous complaint. That will go pretty
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 1: much how Nick has described it. There is, as Jacob
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 1: pointed out, always the potential for some maybe backlash, and
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 1: I think Nick's right that we probably don't have to
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 1: worry too hard about that. But I think Jacob's right
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 1: that if you're gonna do it, you have to kind
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 1: of in the back of your head, make peace. This
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 1: could affect your relationship somehow. Yeah, And if it means
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 1: that much to you that you say, you know what,
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 1: I'm willing to lose our relationship to protect you from
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 1: a bad therapist, and I think this person's become that threatening,
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 1: then I think Jacob's point is there saying Okay, then
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 1: hold your nose, take your medicine, go do what you
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 1: gotta do, accept the possible consequences. I can see two
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 1: other possibilities that we could probably get around the same thing. Three.
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 2: One.
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 1: I like the angle that writer's already taking of. I'm
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 1: really trying to help you understand why I don't think
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 1: this is a great idea. I'm also doing that without
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 1: overstepping and losing our relationship or alleging too much that
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 1: you don't want to talk to me about this anymore. Right,
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 1: But clearly X is opening up to writer and saying, yeah,
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 1: this is kind of weird, huh, you know, like I
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 1: haven't been doing good, and like writers saying X, I
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 1: don't think this is good, you know, like, okay good.
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 1: So I think that's helpful, and sometimes that's doing a
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 1: lot of good in the person's work that we don't
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 1: even see other alternative talk to X and say I
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 1: would really love to see you talk to another therapist
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 1: at least three times and get a second opinion about
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 1: some things.
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 2: Tell that person what you.
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 1: Now. Here's why this is a great idea because one,
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 1: it probably is good for X to start something with
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 1: a new therapist. Two, the other therapist is absolutely legally
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 1: compelled to report the first therapist. You don't have to
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 1: tell X that part, but you don't have to do shit, writer,
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 1: because the second therapist will go, wait, you did what that?
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 1: And then when they start saying yeah, and then you know,
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 1: therapists told me to do this illegal shit like other
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 1: therapists is going to be compelled to report first therapist
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 1: and now also and we'll understand exactly the nuances of
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 1: the rules, right, so now you're in better hands. So
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 1: that could be possible too. So that would be another possibility, which, honestly,
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 1: if we can get X to try out a new
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 1: therapist at all, even if the goal is not to
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 1: report first therapist but just to try to get some
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 1: diversity in X's life, that would be tremendous. People are
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 1: always scared to try a new therapists and they have
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 1: a good report with one, but a lot of people
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 1: are willing to work with a second person to get
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 1: a different perspective on things. So there's a way to
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 1: frame this as none of us is an indictment on
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 1: your first therapist. I just want to make sure you're
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 1: getting even more support. You seem to be doing well
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 1: in therapy. Let's add more brains to this. Let's se
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 1: if we can get more expertise. I looked up this person.
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 1: They seem to have expertise on this area that I
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 1: know you've been struggling with. What if you gave them
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 1: a try, So that's always possibility. Third idea, This one's
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: a little brazen. Stay with me, Okay, writer, you start
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 1: seeing therapist.
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 2: Nope, get everything else that has been said. This is
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 2: the This is the answer therapist.
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 1: This is our official response to therapist asks you to
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 1: everything else. And when therapist asks you to do illegal things,
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 1: like let's say it was do drugs with therapists, do it.
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 1: Do the drugs.
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 2: You're not getting in trouble.
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 1: With the therapist.
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 3: Now you have a case.
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 1: You can be the vigilante. Yeah, and now this has
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 1: nothing to do with your ex anymore. You to afford
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 1: the therapist because you did drugs with them.
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 2: I am really glad that we got to the correct answer. Like,
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 2: I think you should come.
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 1: Over to my hotel room tonight and you're like, sounds
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 1: fucking great. Let's have a great night, and I'm gonna
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 1: film the whole thing. Just you know them those glasses
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 1: that have the hidden camera and them. Yes, yeah, this
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 1: is how you just sting operate. Yeah, you know, this
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 1: is the Chris Hayes move. This is the guy from
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 1: the Catcher Predator, one of the handsome Chris answers. That's it. Yeah,
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 1: Chris Hayes, no idea that I think that's an MSNBC
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 1: host anyway. Uh so, writer, there are a lot of
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 1: twists and turns to this, but I'm there the lightest question.
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 1: I'm glad for this question because it allows us to
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 1: educate the audience that those who go to therapy and
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 1: you know, those who are out there practicing. And it
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 1: also allows us to I think, shine a light on
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 1: situations like this because Nick's wright what he said earlier,
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 1: we tend to default to defending the therapist perspective, and
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 1: you know, they're supporting our colleagues clinical judgment and pushing
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 1: people back towards the work. But we have to acknowledge
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 1: there are bad fucking therapists in the world or great custodians.
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 1: I don't know which side I'm on yet, Okay, or
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 1: are really heroic custodians. I don't know anything about their custodials.
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 2: Good point.
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and honestly, judging from their therapy, still can suck
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 1: it both, You.
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 3: Know they can.
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 1: They're pretty good at cleaning up some ship.
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 2: No, they're good. They're good.
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 3: That's the one.
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 1: I love this question. I wish there was one definitive answer.
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 1: The truth is every decision you make is going to
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 1: have potential consequences.
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 2: But I like that we're.
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 1: Wrestling with this, and I like that it gives us
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 1: an opportunity to talk about how we don't want bad
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 1: therapists to exist. We want them to grow, but a
• 1:48:33
  Speaker 1: lot of people are afraid to do anything at all.
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 1: And and ideally though, and this comes back to the writer.
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 1: Writer is firstly concerned with X, not with a bad
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 1: therapist existing in the world. And I also don't want
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 1: writer to feel it is their moral responsibility to get
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 1: out there and get this therapist off the street to
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 1: like protect the world. I don't want Writer having to
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 1: take on that burden, right because at the end of
• 1:48:59
  Speaker 1: the day, Writer has one person they care about and
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 1: it is X. And if they feel like that jeopardizes
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 1: ex wellness or in their view, jeopardizes their relationship to
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 1: X or whatever. I don't want Writer to feel burdened
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 1: to get out there and clean up the streets. It's
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 1: the board's job to catch this person. And if they're
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 1: a shitty therapist. By the way, this is coming out yeah, okay,
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 1: this is not this a one off fucking thing.
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 2: There's a saying that what doesn't come out in the
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 2: wash comes out in the rents. Yeah, like this is.
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 2: If you don't report this person, the events.
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 1: Gonna be fine. Yeah, so you're allowed to say, Look,
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 1: I'm just gonna play the long game. I'm gonna just
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 1: keep focusing on my friendship. I'm gonna keep coaching my friend.
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna keep dropping hints or finding other alternatives and
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 1: trying to nudge them to try something new and just
• 1:49:45
  Speaker 1: hope that they eventually outgrow this person and move on
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 1: and that the damage is minimized in the meantime. If
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 1: that's your path, I support you, and we get it.
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 1: I don't want you to feel like you know you have.
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 2: To do this.
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 1: You don't have a responsibility here. Just go drinking with
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 1: the therapist. That's obviously the move.
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 4: Other than signing up for therapy with the therapist, you
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 4: have zero responsibilities.
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 1: Well, clearly that's what we expect you to do. And
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 1: wear a wire.
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely wear a wire.
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 1: That would be such a great addition to our show.
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 2: Is just them just doing this? Yeah?
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 3: Patre okay if you're a Patreon though, can and you
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 3: feel like annonymously anonymousizing yourself that's a word.
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but doing great.
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 3: Let's see illegal things?
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, No, I want to know Jacobs please tag
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 4: me because I won't be able to find it if
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 4: you don't.
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 2: Does not want to be tagged anything, Yeah, except that
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 2: Jacob's curiosity. I want to know.
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 1: In eight years, he's never asked anybody.
• 1:50:46
  Speaker 3: He said, if you tagged me, I will look, But
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 3: he said, ta, I'm requesting attack anyway.
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 4: Writer, you can also just DM me on on there
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 4: as well. I will read them and I will protect
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 4: you at anmute.
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 2: Here's my address. If you happen to sit down, stop
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 2: by coffee, will talk this over. I need to know
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 2: the dates. Writer, Vegas.
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 4: You can come on this show next week. We'll disguise
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 4: your voice, We'll do the whole thing.
• 1:51:16
  Speaker 1: There you go, there you go anyway, writer, we would
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 1: love updates. If whatever comes to pass, please update us.
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 1: And I was definitely joking about actually going to see
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 1: this therapy.
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 3: I'm not so.
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 1: Jacob would love you too and would love Oh.
• 1:51:31
  Speaker 2: My god, gosh.
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 1: We're gonna take a quick break and when we come back,
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 1: we are wrapping up the show. You're listening to pod
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 1: therapy today.
• 1:51:39
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