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What I've Learnt - Dr. Rick Hodes · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, whoever saves a single life, it's considered by scripture to have saved the whole world.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Dr.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Rick Hoddes is JDC's medical director in Ethiopia.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: JDC is the leading Jewish humanitarian organisation working in 70 countries to lift lives and strengthen communities.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Initially arriving in 1984 to help famine victims, Dr.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: Hoddes returned in 1985 to teach at Addis Ababa University, Faculty of Medicine, and has worked for JDC since 1990.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Hodes is a graduate of Middlebury College, the University of Rochester Medical School, and trained in internal medicine at the John Hopkins University.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Hodes was in charge of the health care of all Ethiopian immigrants to Israel from late 1990 until 2016.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's about 1% of the Israeli population.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: He also participated in Operation Solomon, the historic airlift of over 14,000 Ethiopians to Israel in 36 hours.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, today Dr.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Hodes directs JDC's non-sectarian medical programs, including cardiac care and treatment of spine disease.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: He also sees patients at the missionaries of charity, Mother Teresa's Mission.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Many of his patients cannot afford medical care, so Dr.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Hodes raises funds to send heart patients to India for surgery and spine patients to Ghana for traction and surgery.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: He has a large network of physicians worldwide that he consults and sometimes donate free care.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: During more than 30 years with JDC, Dr.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Hoddes has also worked with refugees and victims of famine, war and disease, outbreaks in Ethiopia, Albania, Rwanda, the Congo, Tanzania, Albania, and Somalia.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Hodgs was inducted into the Medical Mission Hall of Fame in 2006 and the following year was selected as a CNN hero.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's the subject of the book This Is a Soul by Marilyn Berger, as well as the Sukhon Rockefeller documentary Making the Crooked Straight, Sam Schneider's documentary Be Work It, and Melissa Donovan's new film, The Mene.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, sometimes there are angels sent from above to heal, to save, and revive.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: And Dr.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Hodes is one of them.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome to the What I've Learned podcast.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're thrilled to have you join us.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's my pleasure to be here.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: So you've come from quite a way away.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: You've come from Ethiopia.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us a little bit about why you're in Ethiopia, where it all started, and really what attracted you to medicine in the first place.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: In our American system, we have to have a university degree before medical school.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I studied geography and was not so interested in going to medical school.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: I graduated, didn't really have skills.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: I hitchhiked to Alaska, lived in Alaska for several years, had plenty of time to read and think.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I decided the best thing I could do with my life is go to medical school.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I went back, I did science for a year, and then I applied to medical school.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: Went to medical school in Rochester, New York, internal medicine training in the Johns Hopkins system in Baltimore.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then in 1985, I wanted to spend one year teaching in Africa.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I got a Fulbright fellowship, and the Fulbright people asked me to go to Ethiopia.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I went to Ethiopia to teach and to practice medicine for one year in 1985.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where it all really began for you.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a pretty, you know, I mean, it's quite daunting to suddenly find yourself in a new country with tell me a little bit about what you learned from that experience and what you were confronted with.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: What were your challenges going from, you know, America where the health system, while not perfect, is certainly better than most of Africa, a lot of Africa.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: So tell me a little bit about your journey to Ethiopia back then and what it what what did it teach you?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I had very good standard, like solid training in American medicine and the things that we commonly treat hypertension, diabetes, heart failure, heart attacks, that type stuff.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I could do that without any difficulty.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: On the other hand, I got to Ethiopia and I had cases of tuberculosis all the time.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I had treated two or three cases of TB in my life.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: I had rheumatic heart disease.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I again I had treated two or three cases of rheumatic heart disease in my life, and now I'm getting two or three cases a day.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a great challenge to sort of learn the other side of the coin of medicine.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: And the the way I the way I describe it is the University of Rochester taught me how to be a pilot.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: And once I learned how to fly a plane, I could fly in other directions.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: And Ethiopia changed my direction completely and threw in a lot of monkey wrenches, as we say in American English, but I survived and picked this other stuff up and learned a whole other set of skills.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: And do you think that your capacity to adapt, which let's be honest, as a doctor and in medicine, you need to be able to do, this took it to a whole other level.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: So for you was was it, you said you saw some extraordinary.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: I spoke to you briefly beforehand, and you said you saw some extraordinary examples of humanity faced with, I suppose, quite confronting disease, but also vulnerabilities on many levels.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to me about that.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: That was interesting.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know my patients are really suffering from now I do spinal deformities, so from terrible spinal deformities.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: And back then I was doing heart disease and um rheumatic heart disease, congenital heart disease.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: And they were living with such pride and calmness and dignity, despite the fact that there was no treatment for them in the country.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it was just so impressive for me to see how they faced the challenges of their lives.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: This this was really a lesson in dignity and strength.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: And for you, did it give you context in terms of, I suppose, your own journey, which was running alongside that because you were you you were a young doctor.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: But do you think that that taught you some pretty core resilience um tools, which you obviously need in medicine, but particularly in the area that you continue to work on?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: What did you learn from that?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: And and what's what are some of those tools?
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you deal with such incredible and powerful?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: I suppose you, as you mentioned before, there's a lot of um uplift because you learn a lot about people's capacity to cope.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: What about your own?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: So what when first of all, the challenges they faced were much, much worse than the any challenges I faced.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I have Western health insurance, and you know, if something goes wrong, I can be back on the plane and get heart surgery at Johns Hopkins Hospital.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: And they had nothing.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, like my worst day is nothing like anything they faced.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, one is to see my own situation in perspective, and that was that was mind-opening anyway, and then to see how they interacted with each other, how did they treat each other, how did they the kindness that they showed to each other?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: It was really remarkable.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: I have a patient right now, right now.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he and his brother walked into my office.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: His older brother is probably a 33-year-old Ethiopian Orthodox priest.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I said to them, you know, your shoes are in bad shape.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: They said, Yeah, we walked here.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, You walked from the bus station?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's eight miles away.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: They said, No, no, no.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't have$20 to take a bus.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: We walked from Gojum.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Gojum is 250 miles away.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: They said, Yes, we walk 250 miles to get to you.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and you know, anything that I face is not an eight-day walk to get to a doctor who might possibly, just possibly be able to help me.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: That is an I'm sure you've seen a lot of incredible stories, but that one is particularly powerful, and the image is is really quite clear of just that determination, but also a sense of resolve and acceptance that you you see.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a their level of expectation is also different in terms of they're not used to being nurtured and cared for and protected in the same way.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and in the fact, the the story even gets better because they walked for eight days to get to me.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's no hotels along the way, and you can't sleep outside because there's hyenas.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I said to them the simple question, I just asked, Oh, where do you sleep at night?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: And the older brother said to me, he answered in two words.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: He said, Xavieringita.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Xavierengita means guest of God.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: But what he's describing is actually a whole hospitality system in the Ethiopian highlands where you can knock on a door and just say to the people inside, I'm a guest sent to you by God.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: This is like Abraham in the Bible.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: Please let me in.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: They'll let you in, they'll cook you a meal, they'll give you a basin of water and soap to wash your feet, they'll give you a place to sleep, and they'll show you out the next day.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and they did this eight nights in a row, which just shows, and the Muslims, by the way, have the same system.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: They call it Allah and Gira, guest of Allah.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: It just shows the kindness that they show to each other, these poor people, very poor people, show to each other.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's a lot the West can learn from that, huh?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure that, you know, I mean, you can only imagine how it would be transformative if we applied some of that to our own communities.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: But tell me a little bit about for you.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: I know you were involved in the most extraordinary operation.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: You, you know, there were 14,000 Ethiopians that were flown out as part of a very famous evacuation Operation Solomon.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, tell me a little bit about that, because that was, you know, quite a long time ago, but it must have been pretty pivotal to your story.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so in November of 1989, Israel and Ethiopia re-established diplomatic relations, which had been broken off after the 73 war.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Ethiopian Jews heard about this.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: They started migrating to Addis Ababa.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: So by the summer of 1990, there were over 20,000 people stuck in Addis Ababa.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: And my employer, the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee, JDC, started a medical program for them.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I was in Israel at the time.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: I contacted them and said, you know, I just spent two and a half years teaching at the medical school.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Can I help you in Ethiopia with the Ethiopian Jews?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so they hired me in late 1990 to come down to return to Ethiopia and be the doctor for the Ethiopian immigrants.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what I did for the next seven, eight months until Operation Solomon.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: We had a clinic that was open seven days a week, eight hours a day.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: We had five full-time doctors, and we tried to take care of them.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: I ended up diagnosing 3.5% of the population with active tuberculosis, and we treated them with quite a modern therapy, and they did quite well.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: It is really, it must have been transformative for you to be part of that.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, for example, the the first month that we have data, which is I'm ballparking these figures, but August of 1990, about 20 people died that month.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the medical program started, it started, it was more successful than we thought.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: By March of the following year, three people died that month.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, and population was you can't, it's not exactly the same population, but the fact that the death rate plummeted just shows the success of our program.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it certainly does.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then clearly, this is just in one area that you were operating and working in.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: You clearly have the capacity to, you know, draw on community resources.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that you're well connected with doctors all over the world, and part of it is ensuring that where possible you can find people the care that they need.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to me a little bit about how that community operates.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, the JDC is an extraordinary organization that you work with, and that would facilitate that.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: But obviously, you still, as a doctor in this particular arena, need to be resourceful, to say the least.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, I think my role, I'm an internal medicine doctor, so I think my role on the planet is I'm a connector.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And if you stay long enough in one spot, then you get to know a lot of people and you become like the center point.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you can somebody will come to me and uh with a certain problem, and then often within a week, I will have solved it completely unexpectedly by being able to connect them with somebody else who can help them.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: And doesn't that say something about you and your relationships?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: You obviously are well respected, clearly, but also your facility to build relationships is pretty important because those are the linchpins of all of this extraordinary work.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me a little bit about you you mentioned now you're working at the moment with spinal patients, and and I actually um mentioned in the introduction about that, you also working with people in India and spine patients to Ghana for traction and surgery when needed.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to me a little bit about right now what's happening and what you're focused on and why have you moved into that arena?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Is that because it's it's become more of an issue, or is it just that it's the way that it organically is?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: Doctor, so I was not interested in orthopedics, was not interested in spines, but I was volunteering at Mother Teresa's mission with the Catholic nuns and helping anyone who walked in the door.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: And one day we got an admission of two abandoned orphans.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: This is in 1999, who had tuberculosis of the spine.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: So we all know of the disease scoliosis, scoliosis is an S.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: TB is a V, and that's called kyphosis.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: So TB didn't cause scoliosis, it causes a V, which is called kyphosis.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I got an admission of these two boys.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: Probably one was about 11 and one was about six, and they had both TB of the spine.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: They were not related to each other, even they didn't speak the same language.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: They were from different tribes.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I knew that if I couldn't get them surgery, they would become paralyzed.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: And if you become paralyzed from the middle of your chest, you become incontinent and you get pressure sores and you get infected, and you're gonna die early, and it's gonna be miserable.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I really wanted to prevent that.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I took pictures of them, I sent letters to doctors, nobody would help them, and especially nobody would help them for free.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: Then I got this brilliant idea that I could adopt them, add them to my American health insurance, and get them surgery in the United States.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the problem is when you adopt an abandoned orphan who doesn't have any relatives, they become yours for life.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: So on one hand, I could save their life.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: On the other hand, we'd have to spend the rest of our lives together.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, did I want that much permanence?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, I know a lot of doctors.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know anyone who's ever adopted a patient, you know, and spent the rest of their lives with them.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I was walking along, true story.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: I was walking along, and it was really bothering me because I knew on one, you know, deep inside, I could solve this problem.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: On the other hand, you know, I I could solve the problem, but then we'd have to spend the rest of our lives together.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I was walking along and I looked up at the Almighty and I said, What do you want me to do?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, there was no answer.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: The clouds didn't open up, I didn't hear any voices or anything like that.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: I looked around and nothing, you know, nothing had changed.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I kept on going.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: But three days later, I actually got an answer.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it's as if I got a fact to my brain.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: And the answer was, I'm offering you a chance to help these boys.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Don't say no.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I say very powerful.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: So then I I went ahead and I adopted them, added them to my health insurance, and brought them down.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And again, like every step is difficult, you know, like I'm sure nothing is easy, and brought them down to Dallas, Texas, where they had really good surgery inside um in one of the best hospitals in the world.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that is a pretty extraordinary story, but also it says so much about you and the fact that do you believe?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, are you a man of faith and religion?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: And true, I mean, do you believe that that was?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's something very biblical almost about that story, literally biblical.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: There's any other interpretation except that it was a message from God.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: And this this stuff happens to me all the time.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like not occasionally, but all the time.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: So do you so has that made you a man of faith when you see such trauma and so many people who are so desperately not treated and uncared for?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: That can make you cynical.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: But on the other hand, you see there's that that sort of miracle, which to be honest, you're instrumental in by the choice that you made.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: But does it make you a man of faith, or does it, or does some of this sure for sure?
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's strengthened.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I had faith, but it strengthens it.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, we all have our doubts on uh certain days, and if I have a doubtful day, I sort of remind myself that this other stuff happened and like bigger picture out there.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: So uh just following on from this.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: For example, do you do you want to hear a story?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: I do, I really want to hear just one quick question.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Are those boys still in your life?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: And if so, so you have two beautiful Ethiopian sons who have now healed and are on their own journey.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, actually, now I have five, but um so I was at my office back in in the 1980s, and somebody knocked on my door, and he was a young Ethiopian about my size, and I'm not tall.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he said, I'm Ethiopia's top light flyweight boxer.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: And every time I train really hard, I cough up one cup of bright red blood.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: And Ethiopians know that if you cough up blood, you probably have tuberculosis.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: So he went to the TB center, and the TB center said it's not TB.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: So he said, They say it's not TB, but nobody knows what it is.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: So another cause of coughing up blood is the mitral valve is too narrow, and that's called mitral stenosis.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I listened to him, you know, and you put them on their left side and you listen, and it it really sounded like he had the deep murmur, diastolic murmur of mitral stenosis.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: So then I got an echo, and the echo confirmed this.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: So he needed$25,000 of surgery to replace his mitral valve.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: I said to him, uh, do you have$25,000 to pay for surgery?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, No.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Okay, well, listen, if I hear of anything, I'll let you know.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, just write down your name and your phone number.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: So he wrote down his name, he wrote down his phone number, and I just stuck it in my drawer, knowing that like the chances that somebody's gonna contact me saying, we want to do free surgery on a patient with mitral stenosis, is really zero.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, a couple of weeks later, I got my mail from America, and there was a letter.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Back then, the National Institute of Health used to send letters to every doctor in the United States talking about what they did and asking for a referral of patients.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: And they had sent a letter to every doctor saying, we're looking for patients with mitral stenosis to do a balloon procedure on.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so I said, uh, I wrote them a letter and I said, Would you take Ethiopians?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: And they said, Yeah, sure.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I we got him a passport, got him a visa, and I sent him off to the National Institute of Health, where he had a successful procedure, um, and is now okay.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: This guy is now, um, he's probably 50 years old now, and he's a boxing coach in Tennessee.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: He specializes in teaching boxing to people with Parkinson's disease.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: So even during COVID, he was counted like in the physical therapy category rather than in the sports category, and could stay open and give his boxing lessons to people with Parkinson's disease.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: That is just, it's like a miracle, that story.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: It really is.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, and then the fact that he goes on to help others.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: So there must be this incredible uh sense of reward for you because you can see these, to be honest, these people who would have had very little chance of survival had you not stepped in.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, do you think that the organization, which is obviously an incredible, I mean, it's an incredible organization, but it's the people they like people like you.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: Do you find that there are others who have a similar, a similar passion for this sort of work?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because it is taxing emotionally and physically.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're living in Ethiopia and you've been living there for how long now?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: I've been there 34 years.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so it's that's your home.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's my home for sure.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: So there's something you've you've fallen in love with it.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: I wake up in the morning and I turn on the water to see if I have if I have running water that day.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: I turn on the light to see if I have electricity.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: I look at my cell phone to see if I have cell phone service and if I have internet.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, so that's how I start my day.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: While, you know, here in Australia, you just know that you're gonna have water and you're gonna have electricity and you're gonna have cell phone service.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: So um it's a it's a whole different set of premises.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, actually, though, the fact you've chosen to stay there means you've fallen in love with the country and the people.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: People and and and the pathway because you wouldn't stay there, you wouldn't have to stay there unless there was it was filling your cup in some very which I can understand why.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we so we started, I got my first two spine patients.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: I adopted them in 2001, got them surgery in 2002, and started getting other spine patients.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: I adopted another one and did the same thing.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and eventually um I met the best spine surgeon in the world, and his name is Dr.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: Bwachi.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: He's from Ghana in West Africa.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so we send our patients now to Ghana for spine surgery.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we have we've done over a thousand surgeries, and we have, I have perhaps the largest collection of the worst spine deformities in the world.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it is a little mind-blowing to just listen to the first of all, how common it is, and and clearly the fact that you have identified that area that needed a lot of attention.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: But also you've adopted in total five kids.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because I've adopted these Ethiopian kids, I am literally the rich uncle.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I have some of their relatives coming in, staying with us and going to school as well.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: That is just so beautiful.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: And what about I'm not familiar?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Are you married?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have your own another family?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I did not get married.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, yeah.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: So that's great.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: So you could actually just focus on what you had to do.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it feels a bit, to be honest, like this is your family, this is your calling, this is what you were meant to do.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel you you could have landed anywhere?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to work out what has kept you and what lessons you have learned on this journey by staying there.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, clearly.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: In every sense of the word, I couldn't think of anything better to do.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was working in Ethiopia, obviously not making a lot of money, but saving lives.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: And there's like, you know, we've done over a thousand surgeries.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: We've sent over 150 Ethiopians to India for heart surgery.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: I've treated 100 kids for cancer.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: I send biopsies to America all the time to get second opinions on whether they have cancer and what kind of cancer they have, so that they can get definitive treatment.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: So the fact that I'm able to do this and keep going and save these lives, that's what gives me meaning and purpose in my own life.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Which I totally understand.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, how could it not?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: And in terms of your uh just the financial support for the program and for what you're trying to do, how difficult is it to get it?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you find most of it you can negotiate some sort of input from the surgeons or the hospitals or the communities?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we can get good deals, but nobody will operate for free.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, everybody has their own challenges.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the group in Ghana um gives us preferred rates.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: And for example, what we end up end up doing is we do months and months, maybe two to six months of traction, um, 23 hours a day before surgery.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, this in America, when you do traction in the hospital, this could be literally over a million dollars worth of care, while our bill in Ghana would be$25,000,$30,000.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, on one hand, it's a lot of money.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: On the other hand, it's pennies on the dollar compared to what it would cost in the West.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: I have to raise all this money.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I do this through my sponsor, the American Jewish Joint GDC.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: Who are, yeah, very, very supportive and obviously think what and understandably think what you do is incredible.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it really has um for a lot of people, I think getting an insight into the multifaceted and multi-layered role that you have, like as you know, you're having to have relationships with doctors all over the world, then you're having to actually look after the kids and make sure they get the right treatment.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel that you're getting the support that you need?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's the other thing I was interested in too.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: I was reading, so you work with other communities, so not just Jewish communities, but you work with, like, as you mentioned, the Catholics and the Mother Teresa's mission.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so, what how does that work?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: And how uh has that is that problematic at any point, or do you find that all works quite seamlessly?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: No, we uh we like each other, we respect each other, we realize that we're different faiths.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so my patients are all Christian and Muslim.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, I don't have Jewish patients, and I'm not involved with the Ethiopian immigrants at this point.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I just take anyone who walks in the door, and everybody walks in the door.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: And also, it's a it's I mean, the JDC is a huge Jewish humanitarian organization working in 70 countries, but clearly that's it doesn't have to be focused, and it's certainly not just focused on Jewish patients in this context.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: We want to make the world a better place for everybody.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: So our effort, our programs in Ethiopia are 100% non-sectarian.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we're treating everybody.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that is so important.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: I had a Muslim boy who was attacked by a hyena.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: He lost his scalp, he lost his eye, he lost his ear, he lost the top of his jawbone.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: I ended up sending him to Israel for surgery.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: And he had great surgery in Israel, um, and came back and talked about it on television about what he saw and what happened to him.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: So this created tremendous goodwill, completely unexpectedly, because I wasn't trying to get good publicity for Israel.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not against it, obviously, but all I was trying to do is help this poor kid.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: It it is very symbolic, don't you think?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: And literally, not just symbolic, but but the fact that look how everybody can come together and find a way to heal and save these kids or these vulnerable people.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it teamwork is not an issue.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just strange that it can't be across the board in other areas.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: I suppose you're in a constant state of triage almost where you've got to work out because it's it's it's the higher end of pressure.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: How do you stay grounded, focused, and not overwhelmed?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I do get overwhelmed at least once a day.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm not surprised, to be honest.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm overwhelmed just listening to what you do.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, obviously it's you know, I try to get enough sleep, I try to exercise, I try to eat well, I try to balance my life.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't see patients all the time.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: I see patients only in the afternoon.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: I do my own work in the morning, I go to the gym, um, I read books, stuff like that.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I try to get out of the country periodically just for breaks.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, that would make sense.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: So you have you still got a home in America as well, or is it uh well, I do own a house in America, but it's rented out.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: So on the other hand, I have a mother and an elderly mother and brothers in California.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I do get to see them um several times a year.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, so that you've still got family there, which is obviously important to you.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you make sure that that part of your world is is also nurtured because that's your story.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and tell me, was there someone who really inspired you, or I mean, because you've gone on this incredible journey, are there I mean, I'm assuming you read a lot of books.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: I can just tell you one of those people that would be reading and researching and you know, are there is there somebody specifically or a few people that really inspired you to do what you're doing?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so uh, you know, in the medical field, there was a doctor named Albert Schweitzer who moved to Africa, Gabon.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, and you know, like I can get on a plane and um fly for 15 hours and get off and, you know, after two meals in a movie and complain that I'm jet lagged.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Albert Schweitzer got on a boat, not knowing whether he was going to make it to his site two weeks later, because boats crashed and both sank and things like that.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so they had he was a much more courageous than me and probably a much better person, but he was able, you know, in very different times to do the same thing.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so Schweitzer for sure.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um there was Australians who came to Ethiopia and they started the world's best fistula hospital, Reg and Catherine Hamlin.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and they were fantastic.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: And they were, um, I knew them both.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: Reg, Reg and I, I used to assist him a bit in surgery.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: He used to use ether anesthesia.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody uses ether anesthesia.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: And everybody knows that, you know, you're taught in medical school ether is good anesthesia, but it explodes, and that's why we don't use it anymore.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I never heard of him having an explosion in his operating room.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, they moved from Australia to Ethiopia, and just like I'm putting spines on the map, they put fistula on the map.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, fistula is a birth injury, and they're helping, you know, in their hospital, they're no longer alive, but their hospital goes on.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's still helping these Ethiopian women with uh all these birth injuries.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: So people like that who devote their life, and even though they're not alive anymore, that their works go on.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: This is my goal as well.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you're clearly uh heading in the right direction, is to say it's an understatement.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: And your humility is also quite impressive, to be honest, with with what you're doing.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: You seem humble and honored in the way that you talk about what you do.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there are it is up there with some of the greatest things that you can do as a human being.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's very impressive, and I respect enormously the way that you um talk about it.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me, do you have advice for those wishing to help or get involved?
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: What is some of the greatest needs right now?
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: And and and what what can people do who are listening to this who would love to get involved either financially or volunteer or okay?
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if you'd like to contact me, I have a website.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it's www.rickhoads, r-i-c-k-h-o-d-e-s.org, and people can contact me.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: But what we need is we we want to we need money to pay for surgeries and to pay for training of Ethiopian doctors and to pay for medical supplies such as rods and screws and um things like that to keep us going and to keep us helping these patients.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: And a question for you do you have uh young med like medical students come and spend time there?
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: I do.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I also have Ethiopian medical students spend time with me.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I hope to be able to motivate them to go into this field.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, it would be ideal because then you're building that um resource within the country, which is obviously critical and will means you have lots of doctors coming up ahead, which will allow them to basically.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean you're running a clinic there.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: Is there actually a hospital or clinic, or do you operate in a simple way and then utilize other resources?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we have a clinic every afternoon.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's in the basement of a city hospital.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we're seeing patients there.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: On Saturday, we just moved to a different hospital because they wanted to start their own spine program.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm helping them.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: And on Saturdays, Saturday afternoons, we're seeing patients there all afternoon to try so that they can build up their own spine capacity.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: And in your time working over 30 years in this arena and this area, how have you have you had moments of emotional fragility yourself that you have struggled at any point?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: And do you therefore, and if you have, do you seek help?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have your own support system?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, the thing is, you're dealing, I'm dealing with human life and death all the time.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: You're dealing with human, I'm dealing with human suffering all the time.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's not easy, it's emotionally difficult for me.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we have to sit down, my team and I, and choose patients for surgery.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that's very difficult.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: On the other hand, the only and or we actually don't necessarily choose the patients, but we propose the patients.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then the surgeons do the final choosing.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, there's patients with great needs, but they're not good surgical candidates, and they would uh likely even do very poorly in surgery.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: So they would be a great user of resources without getting a good result.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so those are the ones that we have to choose not to recommend for surgery, even though that's very, very difficult emotionally and so on for us.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: So it's yeah, it's not easy.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: The only thing worse than playing God is not playing God.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like I always say to myself, you know, my life life would be a lot easier if I had a paper bag and I put if I had spots for a hundred for for say a dozen surgeries, I could put in 60 names and just pick out a dozen names randomly.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: My job, you know, that would be a painless job on my part.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: On the other hand, I would not be doing a service to my patients by doing that.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: So instead, I have to think about, you know, what's their physical situation, what's their emotional situation, what's their family situation, what's their support situation?
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, do they have underlying how's their nutrition?
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: How's their lungs?
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: All this other stuff that factors into whether you're going to have successful spine surgery or not.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and just in answer to the question with regards to yourself, because you're such a giver and somebody who is clearly focused on others' needs all the time, other than exercise and the basics, have you uh is there a patient or a time when you hit a wall and you thought, you know, I need time out from the intensity and expectation here?
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I just need to walk out of clinic for 15 minutes or walk out of the step out of the country for a couple of days.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: I did that recently.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: I just flew over, I you know, have a lot of miles, so I just used my miles and flew off to Mumbai for a few days just to get some work, some paperwork done and clear my clear my head.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: But what about in terms of emotional clearing?
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do you get a couple of things?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, teaching clearing.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna get you.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna I want to hear about you and how you're like I'm I want to hear that.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: That takes care of itself when I'm doing other things right.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: Not easy.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and I realize if I don't do my job well, nothing gets done.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I have to stay focused and sane and relaxed.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's not so easy, but I do.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, clearly you do because of the extraordinary work that you do do, but it's really interesting to hear how you and you know what they say, sometimes the best mental health uh support is to actually look after others.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it sounds to me like, in a way, that's where your focus is.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't get too bogged down with too much of your own requirements.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: You you focus on others.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're advising somebody who wanted to get involved and go on this journey, this sort of pathway, what are some of the key lessons that you've learned that you would like to pass on to the next gen of crusaders or however healers, saviors?
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you really, you know, to be honest, you you know, there's something almost mythical about what you do if it wasn't so real.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I would say stay focused, be kind, try to stay sane, try to focus on your overall task.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's gonna be lots of you know, peaks and valleys along the way, and not to give up because patients need you.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: On the other hand, you got to keep on going.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the bottom line.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: And when I when I feel overwhelmed, and I, you know, I'll step out of clinic for 10 minutes and do deep breathing exercises outside, then I come back in and I have all these patients who need me.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I just say, okay, let's get back, you know, roll up my sleeves and get back to work.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of it is just hard work that you got to keep on slogging through.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm assuming you that you use meditation and things like that because you've obviously I do.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: I try to meditate every day, uh, once or twice.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and that actually, when I do it well, it really helps.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so you believe in the power of the hybrid, the medical approach, and also the Ayurvedic or meditative or alternative therapy approach for yourself, but also for other do you believe you believe in that?
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: You think there's a role for it?
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: It sometimes will be, you know, we'll actually teach deep breathing exercises and relaxation to our patients as well.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Having recently been in India, we we spent a long time doing that and learning every morning and doing the all.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's such a fundamental part of Indian society.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's just everyone, you know, values meditation and all of those elements.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it's great to hear that you incorporate that in your own journey, even though you're a medical, you have a medical base.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: Most medical or most doctors that we've met along the way see it as a critical path and a critical part of treatment now.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it really helps, I think.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I just wanted to clarify.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, for people wanting to come to Ethiopia, how safe is it?
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: And what are your tips?
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, certainly most of the country is safe right now.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's worth, I mean, it's an amazing country.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's certainly worth coming to see.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there's a lot of common sense stuff that you learn about how to behave in the country to stay safe.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, you know, seat belts, road safety, uh, don't walk on the street alone, things like this.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: And stay, I mean, there we until very recently there was a civil war going on.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: They fortunately signed a peace treaty recently.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you'd want to stay away from that area.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: But there's plenty of there's plenty of safe places that you can visit and have an amazing time.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, certainly if we come across, we'll be coming to visit you.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure that you know all of the wonderful things to see in Ethiopia because there's also some great beauty, natural beauty there.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: And my son Dijeni has a YouTube channel which is called Dijeni, D-E-J-E-N-E, Ethiopia Tours, and you can visit some of the places on his website as well.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I just want to thank you so much for your time, for your incredible uh, I suppose you're you're like a visionary, you're somebody who doesn't say no, you keep working at what you you try and problem solve and find a solution.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: And for the beautiful children that you've adopted, but also for all of the patients that you look after on their behalf, thank you, and thank you from the What I've Learned team for sharing your story.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: It really is quite a beautiful story, and we we're honored to have you on.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, and uh, I look forward to meeting you again.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you should do this in Ethiopia.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you know what?
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's on I was just thinking that, and my daughter's a med student, and I think I'm gonna get her.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, she's now a doctor, sorry, I should say, as of last week.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: She's graduated.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to get her, she will love what you do.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I think Jenny, one of the first two that I adopted, now has a travel business in Ethiopia.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: So this is my conflict of interest statement.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: I recognize I uh recommend.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, send her my details, send her, send me her details.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: And let's do this.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, it's wonderful to chat.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: You take care and you fly back tomorrow, I believe.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: So safe travel.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you very much.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: Love Dev.