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Family Business Trends · The Twenty One Clear Podcast

0:10
Adam Hatcher: Welcome to the 21 Clear Podcast where we talk about.
0:13
Anything to help you chaos, proof your family business.
0:16
I'm your host, Adam Hatcher, drawing from a lifetime of experience
0:20
with my own family company and 13 years scaling as an executive.
0:25
And today I am joined by the director of the Family Enterprise Center
0:30
at Kennesaw State University, Dr.
0:32
Sarah Davis.
0:33
Sarah, how are things in Atlanta, Georgia?
0:37
Sara Davis: Things are great.
0:38
Thank you for having me today, Adam.
0:40
Adam Hatcher: Sarah, uh, it is a privilege and we're gonna cover today.
0:45
You and I had a couple of phone calls and we were looking for
0:47
trends in family companies, and this idea of a family office came up.
0:52
What are changes you're seeing in families deciding to start a family office?
0:57
So that's what we're gonna talk about today.
0:59
But before we do that, Sarah, you could have been the director of.
1:06
Any academic program you could have written your PhD on anything
1:11
and you chose family businesses.
1:15
Can you explain what got you interested in people like us?
1:20
Sara Davis: Yes.
1:20
So this would've started, uh, when I was very involved in my local community.
1:25
I'm originally from Huntington, West Virginia, and I was working in sales.
1:30
And one way that you get new clients in, in, in sales is that you have to.
1:35
Have a strong network and I chose to get very involved in our
1:40
downtown community and I loved it.
1:42
We got to work with some excellent business owners, but they were a little
1:45
strange compared to what I learned in my MBA program and they were doing
1:49
things that seemed counterintuitive to that all important lesson
1:54
that we learned in MBA, which is.
1:56
Maximize shareholder value and that wasn't what was happening.
2:00
And so I sat with that for a while because it was intriguing and I
2:04
quickly realized that you cannot judge a business and their strategy until
2:10
you understand what their goals are.
2:13
And so like so many family businesses.
2:16
Their goals were not simply to maximize shareholder value,
2:20
but it was to develop a legacy.
2:22
It was to give back to the community, have an opportunity for their, their
2:27
children to come and work in the business.
2:29
And I thought.
2:31
This is a beautiful thing and you know, we're all humans and we all have free will
2:34
and we can do what we want and we can do what we want with our business, but we
2:38
don't learn about that in the MBA program.
2:40
And I chose to study family businesses and work with family businesses
2:45
because I think that we need to shine light on, there are other options.
2:50
Adam Hatcher: And when you say other options, explain a
2:52
little bit about what you mean.
2:53
Sara Davis: Yeah, so if you are constantly working towards maximizing
2:57
your shareholder value, you're typically looking at things in 90 day increments.
3:01
You're trying to Q1 beats Q4 of last year and Q1 of the year prior, and
3:08
you have this short term horizon.
3:10
But when you are thinking about other things, you're.
3:13
You're often gonna develop this long-term time horizon.
3:16
So it's not just, I want to maximize what I'm doing in the next 90 days, but I want
3:20
to build something that is sustainable for the next 2, 3, 4 generations.
3:27
And so when we see this shift, you start seeing businesses like Patagonia
3:32
where they chose to, instead of sell the business they have now given
3:36
it back to the earth, if you will.
3:39
Um, and so there's beauty in this.
3:42
But there's a distinct strategy.
3:44
So if your strategy is not to maximize the next 90 days, you need to be
3:48
thinking long-term and differently.
3:51
Adam Hatcher: It may not look like a publicly traded company strategy,
3:55
for example, giving back to the Earth in the Patagonia example.
3:58
But there is an intentional family decision that's made
4:02
behind it in driving it.
4:04
And one of the organizations or maybe institutions that families
4:09
can create that can make those decisions is a family office.
4:15
And I'm gonna.
4:16
Be candid with you when you first said that.
4:18
When I think of family offices, I think of massive family wealth.
4:24
I think of families with a hundred million dollars in assets or more, uh,
4:28
not in company valuation, but in assets.
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I think of even Rockefellers and Vanderbilts.
4:34
But I'm curious, Sarah, well first will you explain what a family
4:39
office is and then we'll talk about some trends you're seeing in it.
4:42
So a family office is.
4:44
Sara Davis: So a family office is a way to manage assets, to
4:48
manage wealth, if you will.
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It's a way to chaos proof the, uh, financial aspects of a family.
4:55
And so I think understanding where this comes from.
4:59
Will help us understand the changes and the trends and why they are important.
5:03
So you gave the examples of the Vanderbilts and the Rockefellers, and
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I think that's a great place to start these ultra high net worth families.
5:12
They have a lot of money.
5:13
What do they do with it?
5:14
And if you just hire out a bunch of different people to handle the
5:17
different aspects of what you need as a family, it starts to get expensive.
5:22
And you don't become rich by spending money frivolously like you.
5:27
You need to be smart about it.
5:28
So what do you do?
5:29
You hire a couple of people and you develop what's called a single
5:32
family office, and you have.
5:35
A crew that comes in and they know how to do these things.
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And so with, uh, the Rockefellers, you'll often see this idea of not
5:42
just managing the wealth, but also helping the family in other things.
5:46
Um, so that could be making financial decisions.
5:49
It could be something as simple as helping purchase a car so you don't
5:53
have to, 'cause that takes time.
5:55
Adam Hatcher: So it in the broadest sense, it can range all the way into not just
6:00
financial management or tax planning.
6:02
It can range into concierge services as well.
6:05
It depends on, it depends on the family.
6:07
Who do you see setting I.
6:11
Before we even talk about who we see setting them up, can you differentiate
6:15
for us a family office between having a trusted CFO inside your family company?
6:21
What's the difference between those two?
6:24
Sara Davis: So the CFO plays an incredibly important role in the business.
6:29
They make sure that the business is, is doing what needs to happen.
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Hopefully the family's wealth is not solely tied up in one business.
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And so who is managing all of that?
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And that's where the family office comes in.
6:43
So you may be managing one business, you may be managing multiple
6:47
businesses, multiple investments.
6:49
It could.
6:50
It could.
6:51
Um.
6:51
Also have a philanthropic arm.
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So who gets to benefit from this wealth?
6:57
There's a lot that goes into these decisions, and that's why we see these
7:02
ultra high net worth individuals that have these single family offices.
7:08
But I wanna introduce you to this idea of multi-family offices.
7:12
And so this is something we're seeing more in the last couple of
7:15
decades, this idea that it's not just.
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Ultra high net worth individuals that need these services, but it could also
7:23
be those that have maybe a hundred million dollars in liquid assets.
7:27
So maybe we're not looking at 500, but just 100.
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And what we see with multifamily offices is a similar service, but instead
7:37
of only working for one family, they get to work for multiple families.
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Economies of scale shows us that if you can batch, um, these together and work
7:49
for say, maybe four or five families.
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The price point's gonna be lower, making it more accessible, and
7:56
the services are still going to be that top notch level of service.
8:01
Adam Hatcher: Because you're blending the support together, and I'm curious as.
8:06
Mm.
8:07
As multi-family offices have risen.
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Um, what trends are you noticing in how families are setting up structuring
8:17
and supporting family offices?
8:19
And I guess, uh, has someone asked me recently is the starting
8:23
point for these conversations sooner now than it used to be?
8:27
Sara Davis: I feel like it's so much sooner.
8:29
Even in the past couple of years, I feel like I'm seeing this
8:32
conversation happen way sooner.
8:34
We're not talking a hundred million dollars in assets.
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We're talking $5 million, and they're starting to have these
8:40
conversations, and I think that's such an interesting trend because.
8:46
It has two parts.
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On one hand, the services have become more available and when you're aware of
8:53
something, you can have a desire for it.
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If you know that there is something out there that will make your life
8:58
easier, all of a sudden now that is something you're working towards.
9:02
But on the, on the flip side, we're not just looking at family
9:05
offices as something I need, but rather something I want.
9:10
It has become the symbol for generational wealth, and who doesn't want to leave
9:16
generational wealth for their grandkids?
9:19
There are some people, but the majority are in business, and
9:23
they don't want to squander that money in the next couple of years.
9:26
They want it to last beyond them.
9:28
It's that legacy aspect.
9:30
Adam Hatcher: And it sounds good to say we would like to set up something
9:33
more formal, either that we run or we have some independent advisors, or we
9:37
share advisors 'cause we're putting out a sign of a generational commitment.
9:42
But starting these is not that easy.
9:44
Uh, so I'm curious if someone's listening to this or if even they've come across
9:48
recently, the idea of a family office.
9:50
Let's, let's talk about some questions they should ask.
9:53
As they tiptoe into it.
9:55
I believe one of the mistakes you can make in a family company, in a family
9:59
business is drifting Sarah into anything.
10:02
If you drift into working there, if you drift through your time there versus
10:07
developing and looking for what's next, if you drift through managing the
10:10
business, it sounds like just kind of moving into a family office, 'cause other
10:16
people have 'em, would be a mistake.
10:18
So I'm curious when people are beginning and.
10:21
Families with, let's just say 5 million, 10 million in assets,
10:25
are talking about a family office.
10:27
What are the goals that they're hoping to accomplish in setting this up?
10:30
Sara Davis: So I love the idea of sitting down and thinking through
10:34
this, uh, the way you said it, don't drift into anything that's powerful.
10:39
It's very easy to think, oh, I've seen other people that want it.
10:42
Maybe I want it too.
10:43
But it's kind of like starting a business.
10:45
It's really easy until you do it like.
10:48
If anyone can talk about starting a business, but the amount of work that
10:52
goes into it is difficult, and it's the same thing with the family office.
10:55
Yeah, I would love to have generational wealth, but we really need to sit down
11:00
and think about what that looks like.
11:01
So your first point, what are your goals?
11:03
Likely generational wealth, but there should be some other things going on.
11:06
Um, is it tax planning?
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Is it to develop a structure for your philanthropy?
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Is it a way to, um, hold assets that best aligns with your personal belief?
11:22
There can be a lot of goals and kind of like the family
11:25
businesses that I, I worked with back when I was in Huntington, I.
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I know that you have different goals, and I think that's a beautiful thing.
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As long as you know what your goals are, you can develop a strategy.
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And so knowing what you want for the family office before you sit down and
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talk with um advisors will provide you with a much stronger conversation.
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Couple other questions that you should think about before you sat
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down with advisors who benefits.
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Who is the benefit of a family office?
11:56
Do you have to be one of the children of the founder?
12:00
Where do cousins come in?
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If we keep it just to children?
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What happens when there's adopted children?
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What happens when there's a second marriage and, uh, there are children
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that come in with the, the new marriage.
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These are a lot of difficult questions that are much easier to think about
12:21
when they're imaginary people.
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So if you don't have anyone in your family that's adopted, you
12:27
can think about it right now.
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If you're adopted in, do you, do you get to benefit yes or no?
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That's a, that's a you choice.
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But if there is a child that is being adopted in, that's not the time to have
12:39
that conversation because it becomes very personal and it becomes emotional.
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So having these discussions beforehand is important.
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So not only who benefits.
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But how do they benefit?
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So benefits can come in a lot of different ways.
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There's, there's cash distribution.
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Is it something that you get annually?
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Is it something that you get based on life events?
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So when you graduate from college, is there, um, a distribution?
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Is there a distribution when you start college to help pay for that?
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What about when you buy a house or when you start a business, um,
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do you have to request it or is it something that's automatic?
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That's a lot of nuance and that's a lot of future planning, but it will help
13:20
to not only refine the conversations that we're having with professionals,
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but prevent chaos after you're gone.
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Adam Hatcher: I imagine that families also pretty early and hopefully before they set
13:34
up a family office, have to talk about.
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Is it an opt-in or an opt-out family office?
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Is everybody in, as you were saying?
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Is everybody in because they're related or because they're in a bloodline?
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Or can you get in?
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Is anyone allowed to get out?
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'cause that can have consequences, not just for the person who
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exits, but for everyone in it.
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Just that basic, fundamental question of how people come in and out or if
14:00
they can go out needs to happen upfront.
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Sara Davis: It is one of those things that it becomes too
14:05
emotional when it's in the moment.
14:08
Adam Hatcher: I think that's true for roughly anything in family office or in
14:12
running a, in running a family company.
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Uh, these early conversations.
14:16
Sarah, what are some of the pitfalls you have seen families
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fall into when they have.
14:25
Done the work of trying to talk about it ahead of time, but something they left
14:29
something out or something bad happened.
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Sara Davis: I think an easy one is a resistance to share.
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If you are one of those people who only want to keep your financials
14:39
close to your chest, this is going to be a very difficult process for you.
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Are you having open conversations about financials, both good
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and bad with the family now?
14:53
Are you willing to, to have those conversations or continue having
14:56
those conversations in the future?
14:58
Adam Hatcher: Sarah, transparency is something that runs through.
15:01
Family companies such as how they do compensation systems or how
15:05
they develop each other, or any family perks for working in the
15:08
company addition to compensation.
15:11
It goes even deeper if you decide to start a family office because there's
15:15
an intermingled financial component.
15:17
Sara Davis: Yes.
15:18
So that's an interesting aspect because if it's, if it's the business
15:22
and you're compensating employees, there's an exchange there and you
15:27
know that the labor is worth a certain dollar amount, and so it makes sense.
15:32
But when we're looking at a family office, those are dollars that in.
15:37
Instead of being distributed to family members could be reinvested and that
15:42
wealth distributed amongst the whole.
15:44
And so understanding who gets what and when is incredibly important
15:49
because there's not that same exchange.
15:52
Adam Hatcher: If someone.
15:54
Understands the risk that they're gonna have to be more transparent
15:58
if they've asked some of these questions ahead of starting a family
16:01
office and they understand generally the concept and how it differ,
16:06
differentiates from the company.
16:09
Let's talk for a few minutes about what you actually do when you start one.
16:12
So say a family is ready, what does it take to build a sustainable family office?
16:20
Sara Davis: I think first and foremost, you have to look at governance.
16:23
What kind of structure exists?
16:25
Um, do you have a family constitution?
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I know a lot of people will look at that before they start a family office,
16:31
and I think that's the right time.
16:33
What are the rules that the family follows and how does that then apply to
16:37
the family office once it's developed?
16:40
Are there protocols in place if there's a conflict?
16:44
Again, we don't wanna wait until we're in the moment and emotions
16:48
are high and people are, are trying to prove their point.
16:53
But rather we have a structure in place that when you disagree, here's
16:57
how you, how you go about that.
17:00
Um, I'd say the next thing is, is really being clear.
17:03
This need for clarity.
17:05
Um, who is making these decisions?
17:08
Is there a board of family members that oversees the family office?
17:12
That's a very common structure.
17:14
And if so, who serves on the board for how long?
17:17
And who gets a say at these meetings when we're talking about family office
17:23
decisions, if you just turned 18.
17:26
Do you have as much say as someone who has worked in the business for 18
17:30
years and then somewhere in the middle?
17:32
What if you've never worked in the business and you are a family
17:35
member benefiting from the office?
17:38
Do you still have say,
17:40
Adam Hatcher: And it doesn't matter if you've worked.
17:43
In the family company, been in the family office, or if you do both at
17:47
the same time, you touch something that it will always be true.
17:51
There will be tension because you're mixing the unconditional nature
17:55
of family with the conditional nature of money and business.
17:59
So in managing disagreements that are inevitably gonna come up over time.
18:04
There.
18:05
These typically come up around inflection points.
18:07
There's a major change or an event that happens either in the company, in
18:12
the family office, or in the family.
18:14
What are a few of those?
18:16
That in setting up a family office, if someone's chosen to do it, that
18:19
they can just go ahead and plan for?
18:20
These are probably gonna happen and you should plan for them as you start.
18:25
Sara Davis: Birth, marriage, divorce, death.
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That simple.
18:29
When someone is born, what happens when they get married?
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What happens with the in-laws when there's a divorce?
18:35
Are the in-laws kicked out?
18:38
And if there's death, then what?
18:42
So not to boil it down to really simple, but those are the major
18:46
points that you need to think about and there will be more.
18:48
What happens if one branch of the family decides to stop talking
18:51
to another branch of the family?
18:53
What happens if someone wants to take money out of the family
18:57
office to support their startup?
19:00
Does a percentage of that go back to the family office?
19:03
Has everyone afforded that opportunity?
19:05
Lots of little things that can come up, but the big ones.
19:09
Birth, marriage, divorce, death.
19:12
Adam Hatcher: understand how the family office differentiates from the company.
19:16
Then set goals as a family, having a conversation.
19:19
What is the whole purpose of this?
19:21
It's more so than just investing money in portfolio management, tough
19:26
conversations to put governance around it, particularly around major life
19:30
events that will inevitably happen.
19:32
And they will put stress on the family office and then decide the services
19:37
that the office is gonna provide.
19:39
Is it simply investment management with, is there concierge service, philanthropy?
19:44
What?
19:45
What specifically does it do to accomplish the goal that the family has set?
19:50
It sounds easy.
19:51
You and I both know how charged and emotional it can be.
19:56
But for anyone who's thinking about this, I, I've talked to people who are
20:00
curious about the family office and this kind of conversation with a relative of
20:04
theirs would probably make them nervous.
20:06
But Sarah, if family members before they go into a family office are not gonna
20:12
have these conversations, what can happen?
20:15
Sara Davis: Oh, so much bad.
20:17
Open communication is probably the solution to 90%
20:22
of family business problems.
20:23
Have those conversations.
20:25
Otherwise, we have an imbalance of knowledge that creates animosity.
20:30
You start assuming what other people are doing.
20:34
That's never a good sign.
20:36
Open communication and the more structured open communication, the better
20:40
force people into open communication.
20:42
Have reoccurring family meetings where you're discussing what does this
20:48
family support, what do they agree with, what are they investing in?
20:53
Where do we want our money to go?
20:55
How do we want our money to be used amongst ourselves and have
20:59
those difficult conversations?
21:01
Adam Hatcher: And how can you help a family see that they are
21:05
not ready for a family office?
21:08
What are some of the red flag?
21:10
Someone just went to a conference with wealth managers and they heard this
21:13
talked about, and they come back and they wanna talk with the family about it.
21:17
What are some red flags that says Maybe not now.
21:21
Sara Davis: Assuming you have the assets and you're ready to invest in that.
21:24
Are you ready to share that financial information with everyone Who's
21:28
going to be benefiting from it?
21:31
If you're not already having those conversations, you need to practice having
21:34
them before you set up a family office.
21:36
The next is what does your governance look like?
21:39
Do you have the structures in place that is going to allow the family to
21:43
succeed in developing a family office?
21:47
Are you having that open communication and are you having it regularly?
21:52
And then the last one is.
21:54
Do you have the time and energy to do it?
21:55
Are you committed to doing it?
21:58
Because it's easy on paper.
22:00
It's really hard when you start, and so just doing it for a year
22:03
or two is not going to create that generational wealth that so many
22:08
family business leaders desire.
22:10
Adam Hatcher: And the amount of the wealth.
22:12
If families don't put that work in Sarah and lean into some of those uncomfortable
22:17
conversations, it doesn't matter how much wealth is there, it can all evaporate.
22:23
You told me a story about one or one of the wealthiest families
22:27
in American history, and this was part of their downfall.
22:31
Sara Davis: Yeah, that's the Vanderbilts.
22:32
They were there in the beginning, created just an immense amount of wealth, a
22:37
true, ultra high net worth family.
22:39
I think we've probably all toured one of their houses at some point and, and.
22:45
It's gone because it wasn't invested properly.
22:48
They didn't have the right discussions and the right, um, parameters in
22:52
place and that could happen to anyone.
22:54
That's why we have the adage shirt sleeve to shirt sleeves in three generations.
22:59
The idea that the first generation, they start the business, they, the
23:04
second generation grows the business and then the third generation
23:07
kind of destroys the business.
23:09
And I'd love to say that's not the case, but I.
23:13
You know when you only have 30% of family businesses making it to gen two
23:17
and about 12% to making it to gen three.
23:20
Maybe that adage, which there is a saying like that in almost every language,
23:25
maybe it's come about for a reason.
23:28
It's not to say that all gen threes are bad and sometimes
23:31
closing the business is a way to then have further, further wealth.
23:35
Say for example, you sell the business and then you convert those funds
23:38
into a family office, that is a, a viable option for generational wealth.
23:44
That's not tied to a business, but
23:47
but you gotta be prepared for that.
23:49
Adam Hatcher: What that does.
23:50
Opting for the comp for the family office instead of the company is it
23:54
takes one place off the table where people have to learn as a family how to
23:59
work together in a for-profit setting.
24:01
What's interesting to me with a family office, if someone choose, chooses to set
24:06
it up and go through some of the formal recommendations that you've given, is
24:10
that you've got to learn, particularly where there's a company involved as
24:13
well, anyone in the company has to learn.
24:15
How do we work on the family business inside the company?
24:19
And then a family office actually is its own, has its own family business in it.
24:23
It's an investment portfolio management device with some other
24:27
services that's got a family business mixed in the middle of it.
24:30
You're running two family businesses with two organizations
24:35
and it takes a lot of effort.
24:36
And I think you've done a good job here, Sarah, of talking through some red flags,
24:40
some ways to have serious conversations.
24:42
If someone is curious about this.
24:45
And wants to explore more.
24:46
I'm sure this is something that the, uh, that the Family Enterprise
24:50
Center at Kennesaw State deals with.
24:52
What, where are some places people can go to ask some more questions?
24:56
Sara Davis: So a simple place would be to go to our website,
24:59
family enterprise center.com,
25:01
and we have some resources on there, people who you can talk
25:04
to or you can reach out to me directly through that website and
25:07
we can continue this conversation.
25:09
Adam Hatcher: We will put Sarah's LinkedIn profile and we will put the
25:14
Family Enterprise Center's website in the show notes, so you can just
25:18
go there and click and see it.
25:21
One thing about 'em, Sarah, if I can talk to you about the,
25:23
the center for just a minute.
25:25
You all are constantly putting on events and whether someone
25:30
lives within an easy drive.
25:32
Of Kennesaw State or not.
25:33
Some of them are online as well as someone who's in Augusta.
25:37
Uh, so can you talk about a couple things that are coming up in the next few months
25:41
that could be interesting to people who are curious about family offices or
25:45
just about family businesses in general?
25:48
Sara Davis: Sure.
25:49
A couple of events come to mind immediately.
25:52
Um, here in June, we're doing an office hours.
25:55
It's a one hour open discussion that you can come in and talk to
26:00
us about anything, and we're gonna have a guest that is specifically
26:04
talking about wealth management.
26:06
Um, and for some reason in our office hours.
26:09
It never fails.
26:10
Family offices always come up, so that's a great option.
26:13
We do that monthly.
26:14
So if this month doesn't work for you, come back in July.
26:17
We also have a, um, virtual option in July where we're going to be talking about the
26:25
intellectual property behind your legacy.
26:27
So you want to create that family office and you want something that's
26:31
going to last over generations.
26:33
Let's talk about legal legally protecting your brand names and your trademarks.
26:39
Adam Hatcher: And if I'm not mistaken, in August.
26:42
You have maybe the most electric family business speaker
26:47
currently on this podcast.
26:51
Sara Davis: Do you wanna pitch right into that one?
26:52
So then in August, if you are interested in possibly hearing from two people
26:58
that are are you are already listening to, we will be talking about chaos
27:02
proofing your family business.
27:03
So while that's not necessarily family office related, it is
27:07
helpful if you are starting to grow that family business, which.
27:11
Hopefully will lead to a family office.
27:13
And with that one we're looking at the things you need to do before
27:16
you hire your first family member.
27:20
Adam Hatcher: I am excited.
27:20
Sarah and I have talked about this before and excited to talk with you about
27:24
it again, for those of us in a family company, something I've learned over.
27:28
A, a lifetime in and around ours, you need a lot of different people.
27:34
There are wealth managers, attorneys, coaches, advisors, peer groups that
27:42
are helpful and it is so important to have a few people in that group
27:46
when you choose to work with family.
27:48
Who are solely focused on the inner family business.
27:51
And Sarah, one thing I appreciate about, uh, Kennesaw State and about
27:56
your work is that you all laser in, particularly for small and mid-size
28:02
family businesses, what are the issues that wake us up that bother us?
28:08
What are those inner family business issues?
28:09
And then what are some of the ones around it?
28:11
Like how do you.
28:12
Make your HR department and your family work with each other.
28:16
You've touched some of those issues as well.
28:18
And so I hope everybody will go click down in the show notes, go see what Sarah's got
28:22
coming up and the center has coming up.
28:25
Uh, it's, it's good.
28:26
I've been a member.
28:28
I've been a member.
28:29
Uh, and I encourage other people to join it as well.
28:31
Uh, Sarah Davis.
28:33
What a pleasure it is, uh, to talk about this interesting trend you're seeing of
28:37
family offices showing up earlier than we thought and helping people start to
28:42
get their head around what those are, what questions they should ask, and then
28:46
what are some ways they can avoid common pitfalls so they can have a great company,
28:49
great office, and a strong family.
28:52
I really appreciate you being here today.
28:54
Thank.
28:55
Sara Davis: Thank you for having me, Adam.
28:56
This was, this was great fun and I hope that I can help
28:59
you and others in the future.
29:00
Adam Hatcher: We hope you enjoyed, uh, this episode of the 21
29:03
Clear Podcast with Sarah Davis.
29:06
Uh, please subscribe to the podcast, follow us on LinkedIn as well.
29:10
Um.
29:11
We will be producing more episodes like this, uh, with Sarah, uh, with
29:16
me and with other people every time.
29:18
What we hope is we can just give you about 25 minutes where all you
29:22
have to do is think about that inner family business so you can take one
29:26
step further to a chaos proof family company, as my grandfather would've said.
29:32
Thank you so very, very much for listening.
29:35
We'll talk to you soon.