Latest / The Daily Writer / Encore Interview: Taking Control of Your Destiny with Eric Elder, Author & Online Pastor

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Encore Interview: Taking Control of Your Destiny with Eric Elder, Author & Online Pastor · The Daily Writer

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Rider.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: Each weekday we bring you a short lesson that helps you live out the four practices of a great writer creativity, consistency, courage, and connection.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: Here on the weekend edition, we take a deeper dive into those topics through conversations with writers and teaching that helps us apply what we're learning.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: For more, you can visit us at Daily Rider Life.com.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thanks so much for joining me on this episode.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: Today I'm kicking off a short weekend series of interviews that are encore.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, in the theater and in the music worlds, an encore is an extra performance.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: And now that I've done well over a hundred interviews on this podcast since twenty seventeen, I thought it would be a lot of fun to go back and revisit some of these.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: Now, especially if you're a newer listener, you've probably not heard a lot of these great conversations with my amazing guests.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: The conversation that you're going to hear today is from 2019 when I interviewed my good friend Eric Elder.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: Eric is an author, speaker, and pianist with a passion for sharing Christ with others.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: He is a pioneer in online ministry, and he's also produced a wealth of books and music for his own ministry, which is an online spiritual retreat center called The Ranch.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: Now it was also really fun last year to see Eric be able to release a filmed version of the stage ballet called One Life, which is based on his book about St.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: Nicholas the Believer, which of course is where we get our legend of St.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: Nick.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: And that was so much fun.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: And as you will uh obviously hear in this episode, Eric is multi-talented, he's multi-faceted, he does a bunch of different things, and I love the fact that we've been friends for so long because he's been such an amazing influence on my life.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: Now, in this conversation, Eric and I talked about the idea of creative entrepreneurship because as writers, we are also entrepreneurs and business owners.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things that you will repeatedly hear me talk about on this podcast is the idea of not just being a writer but also being a business owner.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's great to write books or have a blog or whatever, but really if you want to make any money from this or you want to be an entrepreneur, you've got to think as a business owner and not just as a content creator.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: And Eric is the perfect person to help us think through this idea of creative entrepreneurship because he's an original thinker who created a worldwide impacting ministry from scratch.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: So in this conversation, we tackle some tough issues such as what entrepreneurship is all about, why it's okay to disappoint people, why ambition is a good thing if it's handled in the right way, and how to discern if you're called to something.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: Now, just a note this session was recorded live at a men's retreat back in October 2018.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: But this conversation will apply to both men and women.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: So just kind of keep that in mind.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: This was a live recorded session, not done over Zoom or anything like that.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: At the end of this conversation, we also feature a brief question and answer session.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: So this was a blast, and I hope that you enjoyed my conversation with my great friend Eric Elder.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: So, Eric, you have never fit a what you might call a traditional ministry role, but you've always sort of done your own thing.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: Of all the friends that I know uh who are in business or ministry, you are one of one of those who I think uh has never been content to fit a traditional role in something.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean that as a compliment.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't mean that as sort of like you never fit anything, and uh that's not what I mean at all.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: If you can take us on your journey from being an employee with Texaco years ago to now having your own ministry, doing your own thing, doing lots of entrepreneur type things, I think that would be great.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, Kent.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: I appreciate the compliment.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's a compliment.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_03: It uh it it always feels a little uh, you know, it feels like I'm a little bucking the system all the time.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: And and yet I I think the importance of that sometimes is you know you can you can work with what people's goals are, but sometimes you need to do it in your own way so that you get your own satisfaction out of life too.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's sort of a mutual, a mutual thing.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_03: Whether you're working for a company or you're starting your own project, um I think it's important to enjoy your life, and life is short, and you use your gifts and uh you know take control of your own life.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: Even if you're working for somebody else within that organization and helping them, you can also uh help help yourself and what you're called to do.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_03: So uh it's there's there's always this little bit of tension and conflict because I'm trying to, you know, I'm trying to achieve two goals at once.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um but yeah, I I guess the my my journey, I mean, every you know, since since I was young, I I always just there were things that I wanted to do, and I tried to see how I could accomplish them uh within sometimes other people's goals.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: Even working during college, I worked uh on the grounds crew, and uh, you know, I thought it would be great to you know, you got to mow the mow the lawn and you got to be outside and plant flowers and things like that.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, that sounds great.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: And so I went and I interviewed, and they said, Yeah, and they were gonna put me in the back 40 down at U of I and you know, where there was nothing happening, and I thought, you know, I really want to be on the quad where people are throwing frisbees and playing with dogs and where life was.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, sometimes you just have to ask, and you just say, you know, I'd actually like to be here.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_03: Is there any way I could be here rather than here?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: And they were happy to have anybody working anywhere.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody else asked for that position, so I got that position.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_03: So I got to hang out on the quad and go around in circles around every light post and every tree with a hand mower, you know, every day, and you get done with the whole thing, then you go back and start it all over again.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, uh in some ways I was just going round and round, but in other ways I was doing it in a way that gave me pleasure and satisfaction because I got to be around people and things and rather than in the back 40.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: So uh the same at Texaco.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_03: They hired me.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I was in the business school and computers, and they hired me, and they I went down and I had interviewed with a couple different groups.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: One was a PC research group, this is 1981, and the the IBM PC was brand new, and the Mac was you know not even out until 84, and so all these things were new, and uh to me they were really exciting and what you could do with a personal computer.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_03: And but it was a big mainframe company.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_03: They did a lot of programming, and you know that's what they wanted me to do programming on big mainframe computers, and I thought, you know, some in the room, you love doing that.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: That sounded like the worst job in the world to me.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: I want to do research, I wanted to work on innovative new things.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: And uh so they you know, they assigned me after a few weeks of training and said, You're gonna work in this building, you're gonna do COBOL programming every day.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: And and I just said, gosh, I don't know, God, that's not what I want to do.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_03: And so I, you know, I had to talk to people and talk to different different parts of the organization and said, This is what I'd really like to do.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: I want to be on the quad where things are happening that are cool to me and exciting to me.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_03: And they needed people there too.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, sometimes it's a matter of asking and pressing, and that I got to do that, and I did that for nine years, and got to travel to Apple Computer and IBM and MIT and NASA and look at all the new innovations they were coming out with, and I'd come back and give reports and talk to the company about it and do presentations.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, you know, it was life to me, you know, as opposed to being stuck in a building doing coding, which some people would love that, but that wasn't my wiring.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_03: So uh it was the same when God called me into ministry.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_03: Last example of this, uh, you know, to be an entrepreneur, the definition of entrepreneur is to sort of to manage a business and you assume the risk of that business too.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_03: You're assuming greater than normal risk.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_03: So you're not just working for some other company, you're the you're the risk taker, you're gonna put in the bucks, and you're gonna if it succeeds or fails, it's on you.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_03: And uh so when I quit my job at Texaco to go into full-time ministry, you know, it was a it was a big risk.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_03: It was it was a big step of faith, and that's a whole nother story.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: But um, you know, I've I felt like I I wanted to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, which was you know sort of a standard answer for anyone in the Christian faith.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but God really asked me, you know, what specifically do you want to do?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_03: How do you really want to glorify me?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_03: How do you want to make my name known around the world?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, I had this vision from all the PC research I did and creating an internet, a website for Texaco and things.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_03: I I thought, you know, I could reach a lot of people if I created a website.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: And um so I I I did that and I quit my job, I created a website, I put my story of faith on there, and people started writing in from all over the world, and that's been twenty-three years now, and uh we're still going, and every year we end up in the black, uh, which is a good thing financially.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_03: And it's hard, it's not it's not easy to be an entrepreneur, there is a lot of risk.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um But you know, I I've never had to work a day in my life because I enjoy what I do, you know, and and if you if you enjoy what you do, you never have to work.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_03: You you well I work hard, but you understand what I'm saying.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: So what would you say about being entrepr being an entrepreneur is that really appeals to you rather than let's say go working in this role at this certain company or ministry or whatever it is, and that being your your full-time thing.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: What is appealing about entrepreneurship to you?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: Other than feeling like you're called to do something, what about the actual idea of you're assuming the risk, you're sort of calling the shots to a degree, you know, so to speak?
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: What about that?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: Do you like?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_03: I think I just like taking control of my own life.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's uh we were just talking about doctors recently, you know, and you know, you you go to the doctor, but uh in the end the decision is is on you, not on the doctor.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's your life.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_03: They have 10 minutes they can give you in the office.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_03: You're gonna live with your body the rest of your life.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, and if it doesn't work out with that doctor, you go to another doctor, you go to another doctor.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think this whole idea of just uh having some control of your own life, or at least some semblance of control.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: You know, maybe none of us have control of anything, but I I just like having some control.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that also has a downside because you know you have control and sometimes you make a wrong call, sometimes you you take a wrong direction.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_03: You you know, I didn't get x-rays for a few years on my teeth because I'm like, you know what, I don't like all that radiation.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want to do it every every year, you know.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_03: I I want to wait a few years.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so I just went in for an x-ray, you know, after three years, and oh, yep, there's a cavity in there.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, oh gosh, maybe if I had checked it earlier or something, I could have done something.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm glad I did it eventually, you know.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I so anyway, you take these risks and you, you know, you try to you try to weigh the risks.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_03: But uh that's I I think I like having control of uh of my own destiny, my own life.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: And even even like I was I needed a loan from the bank to help uh send one of my kids to school.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: He was going overseas, and so I was trying to refinance my house to get him a loan because he didn't qualify for regular loans.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I I just felt at the mercy of this bank and whether they would approve me or not approve me.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_03: And one day God just said, No, the bank is working for you.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: You're paying them interest, you're giving them their salary.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_03: That guy that's making the decision, he's gonna make money off of your off of your decision.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I I had to flip that around and say, Oh, you know, you're working for me, actually.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_03: I, you know, I do need you to, but we're working together.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's uh so sometimes we have to flip these decisions in our mind.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, you know, even working for a company or something, sometimes it's like, you know, I need the money, yes, but I also can help you.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm offering you to use my services and give you 40 hours a week plus.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_03: And uh so I I think sometimes we forget that we're actually in control of our destiny.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: So let's flip that idea of risk for a second.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: So with entrepreneurship, we typically think, okay, there's there's control, but there's also risk.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: You have control, but you also assume the risk of it.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: We typically think that with being an employee that you have no control, but that you have no risk, but that is actually not true, is it?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because there's always risk no matter what.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_03: When I was at Texaco, we were f we had filed bankruptcy because of a big lawsuit with another oil company.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, my entire nine years there, we wondered if we were going to have a job next week.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: It was it was a continual, well, we're doing everything we can to protect ourselves from this lawsuit and having to keep you guys uh employed.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, I we didn't have control.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_03: You know, uh they weren't an illusion of the yeah.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: An illusion of being careful, right?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, an illusion of being taken care of.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_03: And guys in this room, you know, even recently, this a big company just let go of a lot of people.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: And um so you you're really uh you're just you're taking a risk one way or the other, so you may as well enjoy your life and do what you want to do.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: And obviously, we're not saying everybody should quit their job and go start their own company necessarily tomorrow.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I think there is something to be said for having your own side thing.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, even if you have a full-time job, doing something on the side that's your thing where you're calling the shots.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: And even my own 14-year-old son, he's he loves this idea of being an entrepreneur, and so we're trying to help him start his own little things on the side.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, he's gotten really into selling things on Craigslist, and having somebody show up with cash in their hand is really appealing.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so it's that idea of wow, I can create a value for somebody else by selling my stuff.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: I get something, they get something, so it's not just a one-way transaction, it's we're both receiving value from this, which of course is the definition of sales.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's not just a one-way thing, it's both parties are receiving value from something.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: There's a verse, you know, uh Philippians 2, 4, that I think is good.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_03: Don't look out only for your own interests, but take an interest in others too.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: And uh it this whole Philippians 2 is talking about working together with people to achieve a mutual goal.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, I think that's you know, that a good salesman does that.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_03: They don't just take advantage of you, they work together with you to help you reach your goals and and they reach theirs.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I think as long as you know that ver that chapter also has a lot of good words about being humble and serving others and making sure that's a big priority, because you know, you don't want it all to be about you.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_03: So uh, you know, part of me sounds really prideful in saying this.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's about me and I'm gonna do what I need to do.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_03: And uh but sometimes you you do have to take care of yourself too and not just think that everybody's gonna take care of you because you know they honestly won't.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: They can't.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: You know, God can, but people they let you down sometimes.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: So something I'd really love to explore for just a moment is the idea of disappointing people and of saying yes to some things, saying no to some things.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, um you want to say yes to God and what he has for your life.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: But along the way, when you say yes to things that you feel like are your dreams, that are things that you want to pursue, that are directions where you feel like God is leading you, that necessarily means you're opening one door or you're stepping through an open door, but you're also shutting off other possibilities.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: Along with that means some people are not going to be pleased, they're gonna be disappointed, they're gonna think you make wrong decisions about things.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: Can you talk a little bit about that experience in your life of other people feeling like, hey, Eric, you're doing the wrong thing, you're going the wrong direction, we're disappointed in that.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: And how how do you be okay with disappointing other people when you're an entrepreneur and when you're taking charge of your own life and dreams?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_03: Well, like you said in your earlier session, you're you like to please people, and I like to please people.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_03: I don't like to disappoint anybody.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: I uh you know, I want to make it a win-win for everybody, but you just can't, like you say.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_03: And um sometimes you I mean you just have to make those decisions uh as best you can at the time.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_03: I think, you know, even from my my wife's example, she wanted to homeschool our kids ever since they were little.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_03: We've got six kids now, and uh uh she passed away six years ago, but she started with the kids when they were in kindergarten, and homeschooling was uh just getting started, really, here in the United States.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_03: And um, but she really wanted to be with her kids.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: She said, I had kids because I like kids.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: I want to be with my kids, I don't want to send them away all day.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: You know what it wasn't for a reason of, you know, we want them to have academic success or we want this control over their life.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_03: We she just wanted to be with her kids.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_03: And uh but she had to disappoint a lot of people in her family.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: She went to uh college with me, you know, she got a business degree uh with me, and um her family helped her to do that, and they're she was one of nine kids, and they were lawyers and judges and accountants today, you know, and uh that was a big disappointment to them that she would quit her job, stay home with the kids, and just pour her life into the kids.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, when she died six years ago, we uh a team came in and filmed us uh about two weeks before she passed away, and she just said, you know, I have no regrets.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um I you know, I made decisions that were uh that were hard.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_03: They were hard on me, they they were hard, you know, on our fam family even financially, but you know, I wanted to be with my kids, and I got to be with my kids all these years.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: And it yeah, you know, the there were there were people she disappointed, um, but I think over time they saw the wisdom of it.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I've disappointed people too by following God in certain directions, and it's pulled me away from friends and things necessarily just by having to move or having to do something else.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_03: And um yeah, there's there's gonna be disappointment.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, you really have to calculate that and weigh that whether it's worth it.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: Don't you think that's true with any sort of leadership role, even as a parent, uh as a pastor, business leader, anybody who's in charge of something which is which is all of us, we're all in charge of things.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: Don't you think that's just a function of leadership?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: Is you're saying we're going this direction, we're not going these other 15 directions, and just kind of being okay with the fact that some people are not going to like what you're going to do.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: And you but you have to be okay with that.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: You have to feel really called, or you have to feel really convinced of your own decision.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I, you know, you have to get to that tipping point.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's not that I'm 100% sure.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm not 100% sure of anything I do.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_03: But uh I look for signs, I look for confirmation, I talk to other people.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's for me, it's a calculated risk.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: I'm also very slow to process things.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_03: I take a long time in deciding and thinking and sometimes overanalyzing.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but when I finally make the decision, it's pretty much made.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and then I feel I feel strong going forward.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_03: I I picture just even asking my wife to marry me.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_03: It took me five years to get to the point to where, because I'm like, this is for life, this is for the rest of my life.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_03: Can I live with this person?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: Can I, you know, what about the family?
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: What about her family?
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: What about and I just over over analyzed, but by the time it came down to it, um, I was so absolutely convinced, you know, that that there was no doubt in my mind that I was going to marry her and stay with her for life, and I did, and so I'm slow to make decisions, but uh that's because I'm calculating, calculating all the time, sometimes too much.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think it's okay for a Christian to be really, really ambitious with their dreams?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I think if I I think I think the pride piece is a problem.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um but I think a calling and a wiring is not a problem.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I I think I was just listening to a uh a famous speaker uh on a podcast that you recommended to me, and uh he he just felt called to really big things, to reach a lot of people, and uh he just wasn't called to a small group ministry and pastoring a church where he shepherded a hundred people and did funerals and weddings and went to their barmit not bar mitzvahs in the Christian church, but you know, went to their events.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: But uh he you know he just said, I I just not in a prideful way, but I I feel called and wired to reach a lot of people.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so every decision he made just helped him reach more and more people.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um and with that comes a lot of responsibility, and you know, it's uh Rick Warren, he says, you know, after after after two or three times of preaching in front of you know the largest crowd you've ever preached in front of, you know, and one of the larger crowds that you know his church has grown so huge.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um he said, you know, two or three times of that, and uh that loses that thrill.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you're responsible for all these people.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: You're responsible.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_03: And for years, you know, he's had huge panic attacks having to give up and speak.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_03: And he always has a backup speaker behind the stage, ready to come on, who can come up at any time when he has a panic attack.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't know that.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, he talks about this, and uh he is just so fearful of being up in front of people and he'll blank out and he just has to walk off the stage.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_03: He absolutely cannot function anymore.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, so so there's no pride in him.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_03: He doesn't, you know, he but he wants to reach as many people for Christ as he can, and he presses through even that panic.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_03: So I think if you asked him, he would say, Oh, you know, there's there's there's some kind of thrill initially in front for doing that.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, they I think God has a way of humbling us and keeping us from, you know, Paul had his thorn in his side, and here his books went worldwide, global, millions of copies sold together and given away.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_03: So but he had that thorn in his side that uh I think kept him humble.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_03: So Yeah, I think ambition is I think ambition for the right reasons, you know, if God's wired you that way, um then I think you're you're not fulfilling your calling if you don't do that, you know.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: If Rick Warren didn't do the way he was wired, that would be a worse thing.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: Let's hit on this concept of calling for a minute because I'm a Christian college professor.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: I over the years have worked with lots and lots of students, both you know, college-age students, all the way up to you know, I think the oldest student I ever had was a woman in her 70s who took a class for me on spiritual development, which is the time when I just wanted to say, I have no business teaching this course.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: You can teach this course, you know a lot more about Jesus than I do.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'd uh whether that was true or not, I have no idea, but uh it sort of it surely felt like it because you know, here she was, this woman with lots of experience, and I'm a young kid teaching this class, and I was so humbled by the fact that she wanted to even sit in this course.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: It was it was really amazing.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about th this idea of calling for just a moment.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: How do you know if you're if you're called to something?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because uh you know, a lot of times, especially college age students I work with, they say I feel Called to this or that, and many times in the church we don't question when somebody says, I'm called to go this place or go this place or do this type of ministry.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: And we sort of feel very hands-off with that, but I wonder sometimes if we shouldn't be a little more hands-on and sort of have people break that process down a little bit.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: How do you know if you're called to something?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: What are the signs that you're called to something?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: What sort of process do you go through to verify whether you're called to something?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: What has that experience been in your life?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: How how you know you have been called to something, but also not called to other things?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, number one, it's prayer.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's just you you're praying, you're saying, God, what do you want me to do?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_03: And uh being willing to, you know, sign that blank check and say, God, here's my life, and you can do with it what you want.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: And then you sign the check away and you let him fill in the blank and say, Okay, God, you make the call, you make the shots.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's just a huge piece of anything, just saying, God, there are things I want to do, but what do you want me to do?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: But as far as you know, beyond the praying and then God's sort of speaking to you, I would say these three practical things.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_03: One, write it down.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_03: I I journal a lot and I write down, I have, you know, I when I talk to God and I say, God, what do you want me to do today, or what do you want me to do about this job or about this person?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: And then I write it down.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_03: And by writing it down, what I think God is saying, it doesn't mean that is what God's saying, but it lets me look at it in black and white and say, okay, now that I now that I've seen that in black and white, should I really do that or not?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_03: And it helps me to evaluate it.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: And it helps me to come back to it again and again.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: If I look back and say, no, I really did feel called to do this after you have an accident on the highway and you were, you know, you're moving your family and all these things fall apart.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_03: Then you go back to your journal and you say, No, I still think I'm called to do this.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: The other thing it helps you do is to ask others what they think.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um there are very few decisions I make on my own, you know, and especially the big ones.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I will I will ask a pastor, I will ask close friends, trusted friends, I will ask my family, and I'll say, you know, what do you honestly think about this?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_03: You know, don't worry about upsetting me or offending me.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know, just point blank, what do you honestly think?
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm sometimes shocked because I'll I'll think they'll say, Oh, that's a terrible idea.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_03: No way, don't do that.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: I felt called to go to Israel.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_03: I quit my job at Texaco to go into ministry.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: Two weeks later, I felt God wanted me to go to Israel.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I'd never been there before.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_03: I never had any desire to go there.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_03: I I can hardly even express why I felt I was supposed to go there, but I just felt like I was supposed to go to Israel and I had$1,500 in the bank.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_03: I had three kids at home.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_03: I had just quit my job.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I called the airline, you know, I wrote it down.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, this is crazy.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: I called the airline, and I'm like, where where do you even fly to is to in Israel?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't even know what cities you'd fly to.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know how to get there.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, How much, how much would it cost?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and they said it would be$1,495.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, oh God, I don't have enough.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_03: And God said, Eric, you have just enough.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and you're making a decision that's gonna affect your whole family, and it's like it's crazy and it's ludicrous.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna put this in the hands of my men's group, the guys that I pray with every week, and my pastor, and I'm just gonna let them make that decision because I uh this is way too risky for me.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_03: And whatever they decide, and I I was sure they would say, Don't go, don't go, don't go.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_03: Even though I felt called to go.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: But one by one, each one of them said, Absolutely, Eric.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_03: And they prayed, and you know, within a week, I had a ticket to Israel.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_03: I went over.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_03: Uh just God did some incredible things, and really he anointed me for ministry over there uh at the foot of the cross, you know, where they believed Jesus died, and and sent me back home, just you know, really with this anointing and calling for what I'm doing right now in my life.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_03: And uh but really just asking, asking other people, you know.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_03: And my pastor, he said, Wow, you're trusting this decision to me.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, maybe I should stay home from the basketball game tonight and really pray about this.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, of course I want you to pray about this, you know.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes the other people don't even take you seriously.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: They're they're like, oh yeah, you could do it or not do it.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: But they weighed the risks and they said, you know, all right, you're gonna be out 1,500 bucks, but you've got nothing else to live on anyway.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I mean they they're just like, you know, and you're gonna get to see Israel, you're gonna get to a great foundation for your ministry, and you know, they they had some good reasons that sort of surprised me.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_03: So sometimes you'll be shocked uh at what people say.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_03: I've told my kids if I got struck by lightning, I'd be shocked.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's sort of a s you have to let that bad dad joke.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: I got six kids, so I got I've I've got to have a store of those.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, I told him one time that I submitted some puns to this pun writing contest, and uh I submitted ten puns thinking that at least one of them would win, but no, no pun in ten did.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: That's good.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna use that one.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, okay.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna use that one.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: Let me break this idea down a little.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well, actually, I'm not gonna break it down, you're gonna break it down because I'm interviewing you.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: When you say, and I've heard you say this many times over the years, when you say, I felt God wanted me to do this, or I felt God leading me to do that, like explain what you mean really, really specifically.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe it's something you can't explain, you just have an intuition about something, but I'd I'd love to kind of hear your thoughts on how do you know if God wanted you to go to Israel?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, like in a really specific way, how did you know?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um the third thing I didn't mention in the in my list of practical things, one was write it down, two was ask others, and three was ask God for confirmation.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, really like uh the fleece that uh my mind's blank.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_03: Gideon?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_03: Gideon put out the fleece and he said, Let it be dry on one side, you know, and it was.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: And then he's like, Okay, let me flip it around, let it be wet on one side.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_03: And it was, you know, the whatever way he had flipped the fleece, and and he asked a few times.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_03: He he was like, God, you've really got to confirm this because it makes a big difference.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that asking God for confirmation is big.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um let me tell a recent story.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the church that I attend, Eastview Christian Church in in Normal.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: I've I've been there for about eight years, and they asked me a few months ago uh if I would consider being a pastor of online of their online campus, helping build their online ministry.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_03: And uh they they felt like you know I was I was a person that could really do this.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there were some other people they were interviewing too, but they they wondered if I might throw my name in the in the ring too, and work halftime, do that halftime, and do my ministry halftime.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I homeschool my kids.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_03: I uh my wife has passed away, I'm running my own ministry, I'm you know, writing books, doing my doing a lot of things.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like I have three jobs already.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_03: So when they asked me if I want to do this job too, I'm like, oh, how can I do one more job?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: But really praying through that, talking to others, writing it down.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_03: But God's confirmation um is the piece that finally sells me every time.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: And that's uh so I I think just hearing from people, there's they'll say, Eric, you know, you're wired for this, you're gifted for this, you've done an online ministry for 23 years, you've built it up from this number of people to this many tens of thousands of people, and we want to do the same for our church, and you can help us, and you've got gifts and talents, and sure there are other people that could do it too, but you know, we really believe it's you, and you know, you have this, you know, this certain gift mix.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_03: So I think hearing all those things, but uh you know, I hesitate to tell some of these things because they're just so weird sometimes.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um but years ago, let me back up, years ago, I when I started my ministry, I was trying to raise funds for it because I had spent my$1,500.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_03: And uh so then I'm like, okay, God, I want to do this ministry and I need funds to do it.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_03: And uh God was providing month after month after month in amazing ways.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_03: But at one point I said, I want to formalize this, I'd like to make it a 501c3, a an official nonprofit organization so people can give.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_03: And um I was sending out a newsletter.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm at the copy shop late at night.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_03: I had printed this newsletter that I was gonna mail out physically to several hundred people to ask for money for the ministry.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_03: And frankly, I was really tired.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_03: I was exhausted, I was tired from writing, I was way later at the copy shop than I wanted to be.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um I was spending more money than I wanted to because I wanted a full color uh newsletter that was full color pictures, and I just felt like I needed to make this professional and you know, really say this is a legitimate ministry that that I'm launching here.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I was just at at the back of the copy shop and they were making the copies.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_03: Shh, shh, shh, shh, and I heard over the loudspeaker this song, um, Frankie Valley and the Four Seasons, and uh it just started singing, You're just too good to be true.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: Can't take my eyes off of you.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_03: And then it breaks into this chorus, I love you, baby, and if it's quite all right, as soon as it said, You're just too good to be true, and I can't take my eyes off of you.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_03: You know that verse I meant read yesterday about the eyes of the Lord range throughout the earth, seeking those whose hearts are fully committed to him so he can strongly support them.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_03: I felt like it was God singing over me, saying, Eric, my eyes are ranging throughout the earth, and I can't take my eyes off of you.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_03: I know you're tired, but you want to glorify me.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_03: You want to take Jesus throughout the world.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_03: And this verse from Zephaniah 3.17 came to mind that the Lord rejoices over us with singing.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes we think, that's, you know, does God really sing over us?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: Does he really rejoice over us and what we're doing?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean this might sound just really prideful that God would sing over me, but the Bible says he sings over us.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_03: He loves us.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_03: And when our hearts are fully committed to him, that just delights him so much.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: And for the rest of that song, I just was smiling and it changed my whole perspective.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_03: It gave me, it he strengthened me, just like that verse in 2 Chronicles said.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I was able to send out that first newsletter, and people started sending money in, and send out another newsletter a few months later, and another, and people started sending money, and God started providing money in different ways.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm telling that story because that was God's confirmation back then.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_03: So the Eastview Church asked me to do this.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: I'd been praying for several months.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_03: I'd been saying, God, do you want me to do this or not?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_03: That's all I care about.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: I I've heard enough.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: I think the door is open, it's wide open.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_03: I would love to do it, but I don't want to get myself in over my head.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: They would love me to do it, but I don't want to be, you know, I don't want to be called off of what you want to do.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_03: God, what do I do?
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I went into the interview.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_03: I I did the interview, and right after the interview, uh, Jeff actually, his wife had texted me, said, We have this CD for you that uh Jeff had known that I like the old music, and uh I'd bought a bunch of 45 RPMs from him uh uh records from him before.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I drove up to his house after the interview, going, God, I just don't know what I mean.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_03: If they offer me, should I take it or not?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_03: And he handed me this CD, and it was Barry Manilo, which was you know sort of anyway, Barry Manilo, but he was singing love songs from years ago, and I pop it in my car, and I'm pulling out of Jeff's house, and I hear these words, You're just too good to be true.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_03: Can't take my eyes off of you.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_03: I love you, baby.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: And it was just like, what are the chances twenty-three years later that I would be at this crossroads of God, do I do this job or not?
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know whether to say yes or not.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_03: But I had followed through everything that I thought I should do, even up to the interview.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_03: But do I say yes or no?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_03: And I I called them back, I said, that song, that CD, and I didn't know Barry Manilow made a cover version of that, but he was singing these love songs from long ago, and just put it in my hand.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, since I've taken the job, there have been days when I'm like, wow, I don't know if I made the right decision here.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_03: Not that I don't love the job, but I I can be overwhelmed sometimes with a lot to do and a lot going on in my life.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I just go back, the thing that I go back to, even all those other confirmations, anything I've written in my journal, anything anyone else has told me, the thing that keeps me there and says God wants me here was that confirmation that was so unique to me and God singing over me and rejoicing over me that I want to reach as many people as possible.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_03: And by doing this online ministry for the church, it's gonna be able to expand my reach to even more people.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_03: And so I don't know if that breaks it down enough, but you know, write it down, ask others, but then ask for confirmation.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think there's anything wrong, it's biblical to ask for that kind of fleece.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, sometimes you gotta do it without the fleece, but I think God wants us to know his will even more than we want to know it.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's great.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: Some great tips.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, as we start to kind of wind this segment down, I've got two more quick questions.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: One is let's say somebody's listening to this and they say, Okay, Eric, all that's great.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_02: All that sounds really exciting, but I don't feel like I have a dream.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: I have a job, maybe I have a wife or a spouse and kids.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: Where do I get a dream?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: How do I develop a dream if I don't have one?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm kind of living my life, I love Jesus, I want to serve serve God with my talents, but I'd I would love to have a big dream, but I don't have one.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: Should somebody have a big dream?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: Should they feel bad if they don't have a big vision?
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: Or what would you say to somebody in that in that position?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um I was encouraged by a book by Bruce Wilkinson, um, that he said everybody has a dream.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_03: Everybody has a dream.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_03: God has put something in everybody.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: And he was having this conversation at a lunch table, and uh the guy that he was with was sort of disagreeing with him, said some people just they don't have any particular calling or dream.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_03: They just they just sort of go in through life and they're fine with that.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and and I could go along with that.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_03: You know, some people just they're glad to work at a company and do something useful and make some money, and you know, it doesn't matter what it is, but but deep in their hearts, Bruce said, I believe everybody has a dream.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_03: And and uh just just to prove it, he just when the waitress came back, he said, Hey, can you just tell me, you know, do you have a dream?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_03: Is there some dream that you would like to you would like to do?
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_03: And um, he was just telling his friend, you know, everybody has a dream, and it doesn't matter who we ask, you'll find out they do.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_03: And and she stopped and she stopped writing the order down.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_03: She said, Yeah, you know, I want to start my own restaurant, I want to do my own thing, I have these recipes in mind, I have the look and the feel of the restaurant.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_03: And she had she outlined this entire dream of what she wanted, what she really wanted to do.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_03: And he said, You know, what's keeping you from that dream?
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_03: And she said, I don't know.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I've actually I don't know.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: I just never articulated it before.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I never was no one ever asked me.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so just by being asked, um, that surfaced in her, you know, and uh so I mean I could I could probably pick any of you in this room, you know, and uh in my case, um I love helping artists and creative people to pursue their dreams.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, I feel like my mission in life, and this has been the case for years, my mission in life is to help other people unleash their creative potential.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: That's literally what I feel like I'm put on earth to do in terms of vocationally, you know.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: And specifically I love helping writers.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: And it gives me a huge amount of pleasure to sit down with somebody that wants to write a book and they may not have any idea what it's about, but they have this impulse to write something and that process of pulling that dream out and sort of articulating that and defining it, and well, why would you want to do that?
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: And what do you think the possibilities are and that whole process, and you know, and you and I have talked about this many, many times, and even just the technical processes, which I find really fascinating.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: Most people it drives them nuts.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: The ideas of the editing and the self-publishing and the cover design and all that stuff, that excites me.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm a geek about that stuff.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: And um but I think every topic, writing a book.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_03: I think we should do a podcast on that.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_03: That's a great segue to that.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: But I do think everybody has something within them that that you love doing.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it's just a process of trying some different things and figuring that out and finding out what you really love and are excited about.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, a a huge hallmark of a dream is does it help somebody in some way?
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: Does it serve somebody?
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: Does it does it advance the cause of Christ in some way?
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um Can I touch on one more thing and whether you use this or not?
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_03: But I, you know, there are people that we've that God's put in our life that we need to take very high account of as we jump into risky things.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_03: And for my wife, uh especially, who likes security and s liked security and significance, um, she uh, you know, when I when I decided to quit the ministry, I had to do that with her full approval.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_03: I really needed to ask her, and I really needed her to be on board because it was gonna affect her and our lifestyle and our family and our finances.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I wrote her a letter when I quit the company, and I said, you know, I feel God's called me to do this.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_03: But before this, I feel God called me to marry you.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: And my call to this ministry is always gonna be subservient to my call to you.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_03: And there are some things, whether it's a spouse or a family or a job, that you are called to do, and you need to fulfill that calling as well.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_03: You you can't just jump from calling to calling.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_03: There are times and seasons when you need to put it aside, but uh someone came up to me one time and said, I feel called to move, to go to this children's home, to work with these kids.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, Oh, what's keeping you from it?
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_03: She said, Well, my husband won't like it.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, Why?
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_03: Well, because I'll have to leave him, he won't he won't come with me.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, You need to go back and you need to rethink this because you made a commitment for life to him, and I just can't believe that God would call you to this and leave behind your your lifetime calling to your husband.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_03: So family is lifelong.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there's certain things that you need you can't abandon.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_03: Even my taking the position at Eastview, I couldn't abandon my own call to my own ministry um because God had made that so clear.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so uh I can take on these other callings, but uh you gotta be careful jumping from calling to calling to calling.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_03: You have to really question is that really a calling?
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, should we open it up for uh some QA?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: If you'd like to.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_02: Anybody have a cue, a question you'd like to uh about going after your dreams and entrepreneurship, going after your dreams.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so my question um is is about what Eric was just talking about, where maybe you feel like you do have a dream in your heart, uh, but your spouse doesn't have that same calling.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: And um maybe just like some advice on you know how do you surrender something that in you feels really strong.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: And just a brief example for me is that I spent five years living in Germany, um, and and that that country really captured my heart, and I feel like in a heartbeat I would move back to Germany and I did ministry there.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but my wife doesn't want to do that.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's difficult when a big part of my heart is still with a country that I can't be in due to my first commitment to my wife.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's a tough one.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that is a tough one.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I would just go back to what we said earlier.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: Your commitment to your marriage comes first.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_02: And um you know, sometimes I'm just strictly speaking out of my own experience.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_02: This is not a word from the Lord by any stretch, but it's just a little a word from my own experiences.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: Is uh I think that wives like security.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think they like stability in life, and sometimes we men like to go off and and do our things, and I'm not suggesting you're wanting to go off recklessly, that's not what I'm saying at all.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, we like to have our adventures and like to to kind of do things that are exciting to us, and we get bored with things pretty easily.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes it just takes a while uh for our wives to come around and to I'm not saying to see things our way, but sometimes it it just it just kind of takes a while for things to shake out in a certain way.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: But maybe there's a way for you to to have what you want but not make it a a permanent thing.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it could be a a short-term trip, maybe it could be some other way of meeting that need or dream or desire that you have that also doesn't make her feel threatened in any way or or is somehow pushing a button that she doesn't want pushed.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, not knowing really anything about your situation.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um what I'm saying might seem very flippant or may may not apply at all, but that's kind of being my experience is uh I know in my life there have been times where I have well, I'll I'll give you a I'll give you a perfect example.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and this may not relate really at all to what you're saying, but there was a time uh several years ago where I wanted to um just to kind of create some extra income, I wanted to start a side business.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: Now I understand I'm much more of an artist than I am kind of a business person, so even the things that I do now, even like book sales and things, is really difficult for me because I don't have the mind of a business person at all.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I had this situation where um and this is nothing against um multi-level marketing companies necessarily, but I made the decision to jump into that, not really knowing anything about it.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: My wife was very hesitant and reluctant.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: We had to invest some money up front in it, not a ton, but there was some investment there.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I totally failed at it.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I can't imagine failing at anything worse.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I lost all the money that we invested in it, I was horrible at it, I didn't even really enjoy it.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: I just did it because I thought it would be a way to bring in some extra income.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: And my wife warned me at the beginning, she was never really on board with it, but she said, Yes, I'll support you because I know it's something that you want to do.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: And there have been so many times.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: In that through our marriage, where I just think, oh man, my wife had this intuition about something I didn't understand it at the time, maybe I didn't even accept it, but I I should have listened.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not saying that applies to your case necessarily, that it's that it's a case where you know your wife is wanting to put the brakes on something that is that is legit and so forth.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: But I know in my case that's been the case many times where I just think, man, I wanted to rush after this thing and and maybe I should have just gone slower or taken my time.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um anything you want to add to that?
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_03: I think timing is really critical.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um making the right move at the right time.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_03: I was talking to my partner in ministry about this yesterday because we're trying to make some decisions about the ministry, and um there comes a time when just you know I don't I don't hear a a call from God to change direction, but the finances are sort of changing and shifting, and so I there's a business decision that has to be made.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes God speaks through that money.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_03: And um he was just saying, you know, his advice when he used to work on Wall Street was you know, making the right move at the right time.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_03: And he said, It sounds so simple, but it's it's timing.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there's uh when I went to quit my job, I really thought my wife was gonna flip out.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_03: And she I called her from the phone on the plane uh as I was flying to Texas, and you know, some things were going on, and I said, I feel like I'm calling I'm supposed to quit my job tomorrow.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_03: It had been nine years and uh felt like God was calling me in a full-time ministry, and she said, Eric, if you feel God's calling you to do that, don't worry about me and don't worry about the money.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_03: You do what God's calling you to do.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_03: And if she wasn't worried about her and the money, that was God.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_03: And you know if I asked, you know, three weeks earlier, three years earlier, she would have said no.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um but when the timing was right, she said yes.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, in the meantime, I did a lot of ministry uh uh dur at that time too, you know, so it wasn't like I was uh I think Kent has some good ideas.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you could go on a short-term trip to Germany, you could do some things, you could do some Skype sessions with you know college students, or I don't know what your ministry was, you know, over in Germany.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_03: You could, you know, you could find some creative ways to to minister to Germanic people if that's what's on your heart to do, and even take some trips over there or you know, that will fulfill that feel that feeling in you.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_03: But if you still feel the full thing, you know, your wife at some point, you know, she you know, hopefully she'd uh God would speak to her heart too and say, yes, now's the time for that, you know.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um because sadly I've seen I've seen some marriages absolutely destroyed, divorces happen because people you know have been so strong.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_03: I am called to do this and I'm gonna go do this no matter what.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_03: And wow, you know, their kids are a wreck right now, their their spouses are gone.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I've had to see people, you know, guys, friends of mine just sit on their hands though for years uh because they're waiting on God's timing.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, it's hard.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's hard.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um and of course Paul has a solution for that.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_03: Don't get married.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_03: He just because it's hard to serve both, you know.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's uh well that's already too late.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_03: So anyway, uh no, I I I do think there's gonna be a tension that that that's that's built in, but that's the risk you took when you got married.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I I would say it's worth it because you were also called to marriage, you know, and so sleep in the bed and made it there's a pretty woman there.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_03: That's wonderful, that's wonderful, yeah, yeah.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, we probably should wrap this up and head into our our next session.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to take maybe like a 10-minute break or something like that.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, if we could maybe just do even two or three though, just because uh it's five o'clock.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_03: Sounds good.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with my good friend Eric Elder.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_02: I want to share three takeaways that I learned from our interview, and these are action steps that you can put into practice in your life as well.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: So let's dive in.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: Takeaway number one is take control of your own destiny.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it may feel like working for an employer is the safest option, but that's not necessarily the case.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_02: The only true safety that any of us has is in our own ability to add value to other people.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_02: Job security does not lie in the job itself, it lies in the person who has the job.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I'm not saying that everybody should run out and quit their jobs, and I'm not certainly quitting my day job.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I'm not going to run out and do that tomorrow or anything like that because I value it, and you know, it does obviously pay the bills and all that kind of good stuff.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm not saying go out and do something that's stupid.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_02: However, I think it is worth noting that it's not necessarily safer to have a job than it is to create your own job because you can be fired at any time.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't control your destiny, somebody else will.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_02: Your life is too valuable to leave the chance.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_02: I love Eric's emphasis on taking control of your direction and your destiny.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_02: You can start out small with a side hustle or a side business and you can build it out from there.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: You can learn business and entrepreneurial skills and all the things that go into starting a business.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, I think that's a really good thing because even if you plan on being an employee for the rest of your life, and there's certainly nothing wrong with that, even if that's going to be your track, I think there is something very empowering about having your own side business or a part-time business or a side hustle or whatever you want to call it.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's really fun to be able to create and control your own thing, even if you want to remain an employee or have a day job for the rest of your life.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, maybe that's the best of both worlds for many people.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: At any rate, I think we should not leave our destiny to chance.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: We've got to take control and try to create the life that we want and not just leave our life up to the control of other people.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_02: Takeaway number two, use the wisdom of others when you make a big decision.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: Eric mentioned that when it comes to big decisions, he gets the input of other people.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_02: And he told the story about many years ago when he was considering whether to take a trip to Israel, he put the decision in the hands of a men's group from church that he was a part of.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I think this showed a lot of wisdom and maturity on his part, and it illustrates the value of having other people weigh in on big decisions in our lives.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_02: Number three, remember that your first calling is to your family.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_02: Now, this takeaway is especially for people who are married or who have kids.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_02: We artists and creatives are passionate about our work, but that work has to take second place to our primary calling, which is to lead and to love our spouses and our kids.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: We've all heard of people or perhaps known people who have put their work first and lost their families as a result.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, a relationship crisis is never the result of one single decision.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's usually the result of a thousand tiny bad decisions over the years.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I pray that you and I can use wisdom in our everyday lives to make good decisions because those good decisions compound over the years.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_02: And bad decisions compound also.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I pray that we're making good decisions day after day, that we're investing in our families, that we're spending the time, that we're not doing stupid things, you know, or doing things that cause our life to go off the rails.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I I've seen it happen with so many people, and you know, any of us is capable of doing something really, really stupid.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_02: I've heard it said before that all of us are just one or two bad decisions away from completely wrecking our lives.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I totally believe that's true.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I pray that God would help us and give us the wisdom and that we would help each other to make good decisions.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to speak directly to guys here in particular.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: Guys, spend time with your wife, spend time with your kids.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_02: Don't put your dreams first.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'd encourage you to go back and listen to my conversation with Zach Newman.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's an episode from December the twentieth, twenty eighteen, and he talked about putting your family first while chasing your dreams.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_02: A great episode that was really encouraging.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_02: So if that's an area of struggle for you, and realistically it's probably an area of struggle for all of us who are trying to build a business or write books or you know, do freelance work or chase our creative dreams.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_02: If that's an area of struggle, then I encourage you to go back and listen to that episode.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thanks so much for checking out today's episode.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_02: I would be extremely grateful if you would consider taking a minute or two and leaving an honest review of the podcast and iTunes.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_02: Those reviews are extremely helpful for reaching new listeners, and I read and appreciate every single one.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_02: And if you know of anybody who might enjoy these episodes, please consider sharing it with them.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_02: For more, you can visit us at dailywriterlife.com.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, and I'll see you tomorrow.