Latest / Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture / You Were Never Meant to Lead Alone: Discipleship-First Leadership (Eun K. Strawser)

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You Were Never Meant to Lead Alone: Discipleship-First Leadership (Eun K. Strawser) · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

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  Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that
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  Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become
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  Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.
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  Speaker 2: I'm Dr. James Spencer.
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  Speaker 1: Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways
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  Speaker 1: God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural,
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  Speaker 1: and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ.
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  Speaker 2: Now, on to.
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  Speaker 1: Today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome to this
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  Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian.
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  Speaker 3: I'm Dr.
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  Speaker 1: James Spencer, and I'm joined today by Unke Strasser. She's
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  Speaker 1: the author of a new book called You Were Never
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  Speaker 1: Meant to Lead Alone. And she's also the co-vocational lead
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  Speaker 1: pastor of Makialo'o.
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  Speaker 2: I think I, did I say that? I got it right. Yes,
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  Speaker 2: that so seldom happens.
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  Speaker 1: This is actually the second time Un's been on the podcast.
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  Speaker 2: And so I'm excited to have her back.
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  Speaker 1: The last time we were talking about her other book
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  Speaker 1: on discipleship, And this one's on leadership. But I see
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  Speaker 1: so many commonalities between the two. And so I'm really
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  Speaker 1: excited to have you back to talk through the book.
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  Speaker 2: Thanks for coming. Thanks for coming and being on the
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  Speaker 2: podcast today.
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  Speaker 3: I am super stoked. Thanks for having me, James.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. So I don't want to just dive into
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  Speaker 2: the heavy stuff.
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  Speaker 1: I thought maybe we'd kind of work up to some
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  Speaker 1: of the more interesting things. But you root a lot
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  Speaker 1: of your book in Ephesians, which I really loved.
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  Speaker 2: I thought that was fantastic.
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  Speaker 1: Really helpful and actually a very effective treatment of Ephesians
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  Speaker 1: and application to leadership. So maybe we can just start
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  Speaker 1: out by talking a little bit about that, as well as,
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  Speaker 1: and I think we'll circle back around to sort of
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  Speaker 1: why you ended up writing the book, but what drew
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  Speaker 1: you in to Ephesians in the first place?
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  Speaker 2: Why did you gravitate there when you're talking about leadership?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, if it's going to be, spoiler alert, the focus
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  Speaker 3: on leadership and my antidote to any sort of domineering
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  Speaker 3: leadership that I'm sure every single one of us are in,
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  Speaker 3: a Christian context, leadership context, whatever, a combination of those
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  Speaker 3: two contexts, then we know that domineering leadership, it is
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  Speaker 3: an epidemic, perhaps a pandemic. in the Christian world today.
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  Speaker 3: And it probably has been for a long, long time.
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  Speaker 3: So spoiler alert, the antidote to it is actually sharing leadership,
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  Speaker 3: which really, really does have to do with sharing power.
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  Speaker 3: So if you're going to be talking about that and
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  Speaker 3: thinking about what kinds of things the scripture provide also
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  Speaker 3: as a practical solution to it, then you can't skip
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  Speaker 3: over Ephesians 4. I know that Ephesians 4 not the
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  Speaker 3: entirety of the chapter, but portions of it people either
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  Speaker 3: skip over or only want to highlight. And so I
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  Speaker 3: really wanted to do a broader scriptural kind of surveillance
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  Speaker 3: over what did the Apostle Paul actually mean when he
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  Speaker 3: was writing about polycentric leadership or shared leadership amongst the
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  Speaker 3: leadership set or caricatures of leaders that he offers in
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  Speaker 3: Ephesians 4. But if you kind of take that out
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  Speaker 3: of context, then you'll also miss the point. So that
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  Speaker 3: was why I wanted to center it a little bit
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  Speaker 3: more on landing the plan on Ephesians 4.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I will say one of the reasons I thought
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  Speaker 1: it was interesting that you went there is because of
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  Speaker 1: Ephesians 5. You know, Ephesians 5 and 6, you know,
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  Speaker 1: you have the mutual submission kind of admonition. You have
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  Speaker 1: then the conversation around husbands and wives, parents and children,
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  Speaker 1: slaves and masters. And it just felt to me, having
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  Speaker 1: not really read Ephesians 4 this way, the way you
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  Speaker 1: take it, it felt like there was so much more
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  Speaker 1: continuity thematically, at the very least, between these two chapters.
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  Speaker 1: as you read them together, that there is a mutual
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  Speaker 1: submission that needs to happen, that, as you say, the
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  Speaker 1: domineering aspect is supposed to be sort of not commensurate
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  Speaker 1: with what it looks like to do leadership in a
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  Speaker 1: Christian community, and that these different groups of people who
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  Speaker 1: have been gifted differently by God are really working together
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  Speaker 1: to move forward.
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  Speaker 2: Is that a fair assessment?
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  Speaker 1: I don't want to give everything away from the book,
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  Speaker 1: but I mean.
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  Speaker 3: That's, it's just reading the Bible. So you're not, if
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  Speaker 3: we've read the Bible, it's not a spoiler alert for sure. No,
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  Speaker 3: I think so. I think that if we read scripture
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  Speaker 3: out of context, we would definitely miss the point or
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  Speaker 3: hyper emphasize one thing over the other. But if you
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  Speaker 3: kind of, and it's like always good work to be like,
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  Speaker 3: this is what I think this means at this point.
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  Speaker 3: Can I backtrack a little bit? And I think my book,
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  Speaker 3: also does a good work around, it's not just moving
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  Speaker 3: through all of Ephesians context where Apostle Paul's main emphasis
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  Speaker 3: was on, because Christ has done this, therefore, we are
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  Speaker 3: people who are marked by mutually submitting to one another.
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  Speaker 3: That is a given for all Christian faith communities. And
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  Speaker 3: then these are aspects of nitty gritty on what it
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  Speaker 3: would look like. my emphasis is on what does leadership
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  Speaker 3: look like given the context of, because Christ has done this,
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  Speaker 3: therefore mutual submission exists in a Christian community. What's the
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  Speaker 3: role of the leader? Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: One of the things that sort of struck me was
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  Speaker 1: as I was reading your book, I'm like, I can
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  Speaker 1: envision some leaders that I would probably consider domineering reading
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  Speaker 1: what you're writing and.
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  Speaker 2: Saying, Oh, cool. I'm doing this.
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  Speaker 1: And so, um, I'm wondering, you know, just talk a
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  Speaker 1: little bit about when you when you think about a
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  Speaker 1: picture of leadership, when you're talking about shared power, when
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  Speaker 1: you're talking about this sort of shared leadership context, what
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  Speaker 1: does that actually look like? Give people a little bit
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  Speaker 1: of a picture of what it might look like.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, that probably is the biggest question I'm trying to
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  Speaker 3: answer in the book, because if leadership isn't defined, then
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  Speaker 3: it becomes really, really vague or people just assume that
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  Speaker 3: they're doing it well just because they're in a position
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  Speaker 3: to do so. A lot of, I think, the work
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  Speaker 3: around shared leadership or even polycentric leadership nowadays, The church
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  Speaker 3: is not borrowing from, I wouldn't say that, but the
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  Speaker 3: best field that's probably doing it is in medicine, education,
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  Speaker 3: and the business world is now coming onto it. So
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  Speaker 3: if you kind of think about like something familiar, like Netflix,
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  Speaker 3: just recently in the past five years turned, which most
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  Speaker 3: of the time in CEO world, they would never think
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  Speaker 3: to really think that this would work, but they're doing
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  Speaker 3: a definitive co-leadership, co-CEO, So the business world is looking
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  Speaker 3: at the profitability of this company and looking towards it.
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  Speaker 3: So I think that the business world is catching up
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  Speaker 3: to what medicine is doing and education is doing. I'm biased.
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  Speaker 3: I'm co-vocational. I'm a physician. So, you know, I have
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  Speaker 3: one toe in the medical field. But if you kind
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  Speaker 3: of think about, like, what was a decentralized platform that
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  Speaker 3: allowed everyone's leadership and expertise and contribution and decision making
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  Speaker 3: make sense? The most recent example is from the pandemic,
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  Speaker 3: medical field and education field from the very get-go in
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  Speaker 3: 2020 needed. So there's an open-sourced, decentralized learning products that
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  Speaker 3: everyone has a clear vision in mind. The clarity of
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  Speaker 3: thought and goal was that we need to figure out
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  Speaker 3: a solution to this, a thing that is impacting the
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  Speaker 3: entire globe. So everyone contributes and everyone's going to win.
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  Speaker 3: The whole thing, high tides raise all ships, right? If
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  Speaker 3: you kind of think through that, I'm thinking through who,
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  Speaker 3: if that is the most beautiful model of highest level
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  Speaker 3: of contribution, people have the humility to be able to
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  Speaker 3: work in collaboration. If all of that, I'm like, that
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  Speaker 3: probably is not invented by human beings, right? It probably
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  Speaker 3: is invented by God, right? If you think of any
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  Speaker 3: aspects where there is humility involved in collaborative work, where
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  Speaker 3: people are trying to achieve a similar goal that benefits
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  Speaker 3: all of humanity, to me, that has to come from God,
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  Speaker 3: not from a human source. And so if you kind
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  Speaker 3: of look at scripture, then you see so much more
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  Speaker 3: evidence of how Christian leadership, church leadership started out in collaboration.
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  Speaker 3: There's a clarity in goal. They want the kingdom of
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  Speaker 3: God to be the way that every single person all
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  Speaker 3: across the globe are going to be experiencing how to
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  Speaker 3: live as truly human ones, because of their devotion and
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  Speaker 3: love for God. If that's the case, there's a clarity
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  Speaker 3: in vision. How do then church communities and leadership allow
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  Speaker 3: for that kind of environment to flourish? So that's one
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  Speaker 3: piece of it. I think one way to think about
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  Speaker 3: shared leadership is really in that word collaboration. Where are
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  Speaker 3: there centers of influence that different kinds and different subsets
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  Speaker 3: of leaders can contribute for the flourishing of the entire community.
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  Speaker 3: When I say community, not just the church, but the
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  Speaker 3: community or neighborhood that church resides in. It's the leadership
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  Speaker 3: set that's kind of thinking about all of those things,
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  Speaker 3: having that in mind at the same time. And I
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  Speaker 3: don't think one person can do it on their own.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. So much of what I was reading in this
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  Speaker 1: book made sense having read your previous book.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 1: Because that book really talks about discipleship as the center
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  Speaker 1: of the church. And so you have this almost animating
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  Speaker 1: principle that is driving people toward just discipleship. And to
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  Speaker 1: the extent that you can get people to buy into
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  Speaker 1: that shared vision, this is the task we're trying to complete. Now,
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  Speaker 1: shared leadership seems like it would be at least possible.
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  Speaker 1: You know, obviously, if you have people sort of following
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  Speaker 1: their own aims and trying to do their own thing
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  Speaker 1: or even chasing money or whatever. you know, there are,
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  Speaker 1: it's not that there wouldn't be any difficult decisions ever,
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  Speaker 1: but those other things tend to be more divisive. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: when we're pursuing discipleship, we're all trying to sit under
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  Speaker 1: the authority of Christ. And so we can adjudicate that
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  Speaker 1: in a different manner. But I think this mode of
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  Speaker 1: leadership made much more sense. At least I made more
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  Speaker 1: sense to me. And it felt that's not what I
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  Speaker 1: mean to say. It felt in concert with your previous work.
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  Speaker 1: That's the better way to put it. It felt in
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  Speaker 1: concert with it. It felt like it's flowing out of
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  Speaker 1: what you wrote in your previous work. Did you have
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  Speaker 1: any of that in mind when you were thinking through
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  Speaker 1: leadership at all?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, it probably was the most common question posed to
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  Speaker 3: me when I was making more public a center in discipleship.
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  Speaker 3: A lot of training or consultation or speaking work, a
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  Speaker 3: lot of the questions were around, like, how can you
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  Speaker 3: do this? How does this fit? Like, who is in leadership?
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  Speaker 3: You know, those kinds of things. And so because this
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  Speaker 3: kind of shared leadership model was a common response to
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  Speaker 3: those kinds of questions, It felt very natural to be
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  Speaker 3: able to be like, oh, yeah, this is actually what
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  Speaker 3: we do. And this is this is how discipleship can
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  Speaker 3: be centered in a growing community because our leadership is shared. OK.
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  Speaker 1: And do you think, you know, you work co-vocationally, right?
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  Speaker 1: And this is something I asked before the interview. So
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  Speaker 1: you also live in Hawaii. And I think those two
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  Speaker 1: factors are kind of they're really interesting for you to
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  Speaker 1: come at this sort of idea of shared leadership. Number one,
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  Speaker 1: the co-vocational aspect generally means that you're not your concern
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  Speaker 1: for the church community is not necessarily motivated by a
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  Speaker 1: necessity to make it work to live.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 2: There's not that.
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  Speaker 1: You may have some economics in there and I'm not
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  Speaker 1: asking to get in your business, but usually when people
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  Speaker 1: are doing like a co-vocational thing, they have this other
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  Speaker 1: job that's sort of providing for their living. And then
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  Speaker 1: they do church, not on the side, but they use
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  Speaker 1: that as sort of a tent making approach to do this.
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  Speaker 1: And then the Hawaiian context, which I just think, you know,
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  Speaker 1: it's one of the only places I've ever been to
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  Speaker 1: that is, I mean, it's truly an island and it
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  Speaker 1: has its own very isolated culture based on geography. when
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  Speaker 1: you come over to the actual mainland of the United States,
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  Speaker 1: the separations, yes, we have, you know, different, you know,
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  Speaker 1: red state, blue state kind of stuff going on, right?
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  Speaker 2: But it does feel a little more connected. It feels
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  Speaker 2: a little bit more, it.
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  Speaker 1: Feels a little bit tighter how you can do things,
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  Speaker 1: how you can set things up, those kinds of things.
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  Speaker 1: And so I'm wondering, how do you think about first
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  Speaker 1: shared leadership from a Hawaiian context? Do you feel like
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  Speaker 1: that Hawaiian context is is particularly conducive for you to
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  Speaker 1: come up with this sort of a theory and think
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  Speaker 1: about leadership in this way, and then maybe also speak
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  Speaker 1: to the co-vocational aspect.
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  Speaker 3: And dear listener and watcher, I did not answer this
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  Speaker 3: question when James asked.
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  Speaker 2: Me previously, so he is listening.
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  Speaker 3: To it at the same time as you all are. Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: I think that that is probably a common misnomer around it.
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  Speaker 3: I think that... I think that I could have written
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  Speaker 3: both Centering Discipleship and You Were Never Meant to Lead
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  Speaker 3: Alone from the city that I moved to Hawaii from,
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  Speaker 3: which is Philadelphia. And I think it speaks to a
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  Speaker 3: lot of the work around shared leadership that I do now,
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  Speaker 3: both in the U.S. and the U.K., a lot of
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  Speaker 3: larger or older denominations in the UK, like Anglican churches,
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  Speaker 3: you know, who've been centuries, centuries old, right? They are
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  Speaker 3: asking for work and help and assistance around shared leadership,
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  Speaker 3: how to structure that into their existing churches. I think
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  Speaker 3: also probably, it is probably a more reality that, and
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  Speaker 3: not to be offensive in any way, but the reality
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  Speaker 3: is that I think that we think of the poster
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  Speaker 3: child for what leadership looks like in the church in
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  Speaker 3: megachurch settings. They are usually predominantly white, male, evangelical-led communities.
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  Speaker 3: There is nothing wrong with a white male evangelical leader.
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  Speaker 3: I am married to a white guy, love him to pieces.
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  Speaker 3: He's my favorite white person. But I think that there
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  Speaker 3: is an offering that the white male-dominated evangelical church setting
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  Speaker 3: has made. If you kind of peek under the hood
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  Speaker 3: a little bit, even on mainland or continental US, you
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  Speaker 3: would see a lot of churches that are trying to
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  Speaker 3: do a shared leadership model, but they're probably not white
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  Speaker 3: male led. A lot of the Latino, Latina churches, black
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  Speaker 3: led churches, a lot of the Asian American churches, they're
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  Speaker 3: struggling and wrestling through this because they are coming from
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  Speaker 3: an immigrant story for some of them, others are coming
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  Speaker 3: from oppression. So really, again, it's trying to think through,
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  Speaker 3: I think shared leadership without a shadow of a doubt
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  Speaker 3: is really trying to name How do we use or
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  Speaker 3: abuse power? So if you already have a culture of
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  Speaker 3: people who are going to be struggling and wrestling with
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  Speaker 3: power dynamics, then most of the time, these are the
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  Speaker 3: communities that are probably sharing power more readily than churches
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  Speaker 3: have historically, especially here in the U.S., been privileged of power.
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  Speaker 3: So I think that when we are talking about shared leadership,
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  Speaker 3: really the first thing we should be talking about, why
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  Speaker 3: isn't it happening? Well, it's probably not happening as visibly
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  Speaker 3: as we think, not because there's a problem with shared leadership.
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  Speaker 3: It probably is because human beings have a problem with power. Okay.
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  Speaker 1: Talk a little bit about that power aspect then, because
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  Speaker 1: I'm familiar with most of my sociological reading has been
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: in Pierre Bourdieu and fields of power and habitus and
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  Speaker 1: capital and all those kind of fun things.
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  Speaker 2: And so when I think power, that's sort of what
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  Speaker 2: I'm thinking. It's this.
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  Speaker 1: Mode that we exercise within a certain field of play to,
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  Speaker 1: you know, sort of, quote, unquote, win.
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  Speaker 2: The game, right? How are you thinking of power? What
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  Speaker 2: is that?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think that that's a great question. I
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  Speaker 3: think probably one of the best contributors around sociological power
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  Speaker 3: dynamics is Iris Marion Young. She wrote a watershed book
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  Speaker 3: No one really took it up because it was like
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: in the 90s and everyone's like, what are you talking about, lady?
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  Speaker 3: But she actually is able to define all the different
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  Speaker 3: types around power. I'm not going to go into that
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  Speaker 3: because we're going to go into sociology. But when you're
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: just kind of thinking through the church and specifically church setting,
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  Speaker 3: you can think about power in terms of authority. There's
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  Speaker 3: probably three different types of authority that exist in the church.
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  Speaker 3: Every church can look at their community like, oh, yeah,
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  Speaker 3: these things exist. We give over power or control or
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  Speaker 3: some sort of influence ability to people who are in
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  Speaker 3: leadership or decision-making positions. So it's like a decision-making or
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: leadership authority, a spiritual authority. It's like the people who
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  Speaker 3: are like, oh my gosh, they know the Bible really well,
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  Speaker 3: or they just feel like holier than me kinds of
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  Speaker 3: people in the church. We give over some sort of
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  Speaker 3: power to them. and those who have people power, relational authority,
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  Speaker 3: people who are well connected. And so if those three,
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  Speaker 3: like you think about like, if you have to have
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  Speaker 3: a new initiative in your church, who are you going
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  Speaker 3: to ask? You're not going to ask like the staff member.
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  Speaker 3: You're probably not going to maybe ask the person who
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  Speaker 3: like is the most well-read in scripture. It's the person
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  Speaker 3: who's the most connected. It's the person who like with
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  Speaker 3: one text, 50 people show up to a thing, right?
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  Speaker 3: So there's different kinds of power dynamics in play, I think,
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  Speaker 3: in the church, those three categories. I think another way
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  Speaker 3: to think about power in the church is how, and again,
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  Speaker 3: it's not to be offensive, but many of us have
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: experienced church shopping. How do we do church shopping? We
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  Speaker 3: kind of do it through programs, the feel or vibe
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  Speaker 3: of things. But essentially, people probably church shop or land
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  Speaker 3: in a church because of how a leader makes them feel.
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: So it's this impossible burden, I think, that's placed on
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: a senior leadership now that I think that it leads
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: to either domineering leadership or being burnt out. But these
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: kinds of leadership sets are, you have to be charismatic,
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: you have to be super, super clever, or you have
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: to be very, very compassionate and caring. So you're either
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: a charismatic, that leader makes me feel cool, which makes
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: me feel special. And that's why I want to attend, right?
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: Or the person is clever. They make me feel smart.
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: And that's important to me. And that's why I want
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: to attend. Or the main leader has a high, high
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: level of shepherding gift. They care for me. I feel healed.
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: I feel safe. And that's why I attend. I think
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: that if leadership is only stuck with somebody who needs
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: to hold up the full helm of being responsible for
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: making a congregation feel cool, clever, or cared for, I
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: think that that is an impossible position to be sustained.
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: And so I think that there are different kinds of
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: power dynamics at play in the church. A note about
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: co-vocational leadership. I think that this is probably the shift
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: that the American church is going to face now. I
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: think expedited leadership. post-pandemic. I think that if you kind
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: of look at statistics around church planting now, there are
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: far less denomination affiliated church planters, and nor are they young.
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: It used to be church planters are 20s and 30s.
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: The average age of a church planter now is a
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: white male in their mid-40s. Church planting, starting a brand
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: new church. And most of these church planters are usually
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: coming from a non-denominational or disaffiliated organization. And they are co-vocational.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: Because the church or denomination or whatever sending organization is
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: telling them, we can't pay for your entire income. Earth's salary. Therefore,
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: you need to get another job in addition. So a
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: lot of the co-vocational, I think, planting movements are really
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: trying to send out people as if they're missionaries, but
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: staying within their own country of origin or residence. So
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: I think that the shift is already happening. And it's
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: not something that's unique to just Hawaii.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: So one of the phenomena that sort of raises a
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: question from that phenomenon, because you And again, just trying
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: to get a picture of the shared leadership idea.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: I have a couple of questions. So I'll start with one.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: When we think about authority, I'm wondering, how do you
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: deal with authority?
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: Makes sense to me.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: The way you describe power and authority there makes perfect
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: sense to me. There are going to be those people
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: who have these different types of influence within the congregation.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: And to the extent that they can work together, you're
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: probably going to get a better result than not.
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: Makes perfect sense. How do you handle then responsibility within
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: the congregations? like accountability, responsibility within the congregation. You know,
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: so an individual sometimes feels like, hey, I'm responsible for X.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: And so I, you know, I don't share that responsibility
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: with anyone, right? I'll be held accountable for this, whatever
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: it is. How do you deal with that within a
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: shared leadership concept?
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that it probably goes down into the
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: weeds a little bit more, but there has to be
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: frameworks and structures in place for that to actually happen.
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: This is when a collaborative leadership or nimble leadership comes
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: into place where there are centers of influence and they
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: have a nimble tie to one another. So the accountability
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: is they have a shared vision or shared set of goals.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: The different centers of influence are responsible for doing X, Y, Z,
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: whether it's tasks or care, given the church setting. And
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: then you have a cycle of either feedback or assessment.
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: How did we do? What sort of were we weak on?
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: Those kinds of structures and frameworks put into place probably
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: will make shared leadership much more sustainable than I think
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: most of the time leadership runs from reaction, trying to
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: maintain status quo. Don't change anything if nothing's broke, but
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: If things are breaking, you don't want to talk about it.
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: You just want to avoid it until it's broken. And
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: then you react, right? Like a lot of some of
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: the organizations or more national organizations who are trying to
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: shift to senior level, executive level, a shared leadership model.
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: Those are the questions that we wrestle together with. A
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: lot of the work that I'm doing with them is
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: really around, is there a clarity on your roles and responsibilities?
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: Do you have enough clarity that this person can take
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: it on? And do you have a system of feedback
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: and assessment that's regular, that's predictable, that's inevitable, that everyone's
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: prepared for, where it's not going to place people into
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: a shame game, where it's not going to place people
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: into a performance run kind of organizations, right? But those
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: kinds of frameworks and structures put into place are intentional.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: And it is probably assuming that some sort of conflict,
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: some sort of accountability needs to exist. Right. And so
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: you just put that at the lead time and not
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: the reaction live time.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: Interesting. Yeah.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: OK, so my second question sort of rose out of
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: that was the co-vocational aspect.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: I agree with you. I think we're going to see
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: a lot more co-vocational folks.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: One of the models that that has been popping up
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: lately in a co-vocational model is you have a what's
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: called a centralized teaching pastor, someone who preaches teaching. every
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: sermon and then it's telecast to all the other groups.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: And then you have like a, maybe a campus pastor
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: or something like that. Who's truly co-vocational and he is there.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: She is there to.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: Um, care for and shepherd and then keep that, you know,
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: little group of people together, right. To do the work
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: of what we might consider the pastoring, the actual pastoring work,
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: as opposed to the preaching work.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: If we can make that distinction.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: Do you see obviously I see some potential problems with
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: that model because you've still got sort of the superstar
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: notion and that can be real problematic. But it seems
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: to me that that has at least some of the
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: elements of the shared leadership that you're talking about. Am
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: I right or wrong about that?
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: I think that that's a really great starting point. Because
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: I appreciate it when churches and those kinds of churches
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: actually do exist in Hawaii, where there's a main campus
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: in California, and then they do a satellite campus plant
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: here in Hawaii. And I would just say that no
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: offense to anyone doing that model, but that does not
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: work here in Hawaii. Okay. Most of the church plans
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: that have started that way, it doesn't last long. And
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: I think it's because, again, I appreciate that people are
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: trying to think differently around it. They're trying to do
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: a close knit, but value a local place. I love that.
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: I love that that kind of model also releases leaders.
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: It elevates a shepherd, a wired pastors. I love all
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: of that. I do think the limitations are if we
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: don't remember the two key aspects of why a Christian
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: community should work, like why Jesus invested so much, not
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: into any sort of gimmick or technology, like he just
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: invested in his disciples, right? Why and how I think
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: God's intent for a Christian community to work is it
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: needs to be rooted to a local place, let their
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: witness of the risen Christ has to be witnessed and
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: displayed in a local place that it makes sense to
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: a local set of people. Right. Uh, that's one. And
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: number two, it's banking on the fact that the, the,
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: the leadership or the gift of, uh, of the witness
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: of the church is happening, not through their leaders. It's
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: happening through the congregation. Right. And so it is a,
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: I think it's a mind shift on how leaders think
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: about their roles. You know, in my book, I spend
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: a lot of time around, um, If you're teacher-wired or
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: teacher-gifted and all those things, your maturity of leadership doesn't
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: bank on the fact that you can communicate publicly well.
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: It just means that you're an excellent communicator, which is awesome,
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: which is so great to have. But your maturity and
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: your leadership is, are you the person who makes sure
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: that there is a facilitated environment constantly that the people
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: of God love to learn from one another? That is
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: a very different teaching setting than a person coming in
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: and being a teaching pastor a week in and week out, right?
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: They're also the people who are looking for other teacher-wired
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: gifted people in the room, right? That's one of the
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: things that's worked really well within our own communities because
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: we do a missional community model. We grow smaller pods
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: of groups all over Oahu. If that's happening and we
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: need local leaders, that's the biggest emphasis. If your leadership
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: set does not look like the neighborhood your church resides in,
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: you need to rethink who's in leadership because you have
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: to really assess who's holding power within that community, right? Again,
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: if we're talking about leadership, we're talking about power dynamics, right?
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: And so I am from West Philadelphia. I don't sound
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: like people in Hawaii. So even though I may be
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: the best communicator or best teacher or have the best
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: biblical background, I can't be the only person teaching. I
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: need local leaders. And so sharing leadership model actually makes
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: it so that mature leaders not only facilitate an environment
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: so that all the gift of whatever that work is,
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: is equipping all of the congregation and inviting the community
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: into it, And there are the people who are constantly
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: identifying who else has this gift that we can share
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: this equipping with.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: It's interesting.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, what you're saying, it reminds me of, I
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: think it's Ron Heifetz's work, Leadership Above the Line, maybe.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: I can't remember the name of it. But anyway, he
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: talks about the role of the leader. being less about
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: solving the problem and more about getting everyone to agree
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: that there is a problem and what that problem actually is,
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: and then mobilizing them toward fixing that problem. And it
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: just strikes me that what you're describing is akin to that,
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: not exactly like that, but certainly in that vein, that
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: the leader is not the end-all be-all solution. He's not
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: the one, she's not the one who's going to keep
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: the whole church going no matter what. it's this sort
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: of facilitative role that gets the whole congregation motivated and
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: mobilized to do the work of the Lord in that
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: local space, which I think is great.
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: That's why we circle back to Ephesians 4, right? If
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: you're looking for what definition that is, Apostle Paul writes down,
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: like Christ appointed these five archetypes or types of leaders,
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: I think it really is, and I write to prove
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: the point that it really is around what kinds of
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: environments of equipping do these five types of leadership sets provide.
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: But the whole point is, you know, if it's working
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: or not, because it's a congregation being equipped to do
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: the works of God for the benefit of the community
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: around them. It's not do the leadership set, do the
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: works of God on behalf of the congregation or on
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: behalf of the flourishing of the congregation. I think that
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: the contemporary church thinks that's the job, that that's the work.
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: I get paid to And I'm in this position so
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: that I do the works of God for the benefit
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: of my church, for the flourishing of my church. So
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: my church attendance grows or a budget grows or whatever.
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: And they're beautiful things like we need money. We need
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: people power. We need resources. All those things are we
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: are in need. Right. Again, it's a leadership mindset shift
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: to think that actually my role in my in this
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: leadership is not to do the works of service. It's
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: so that the entire congregation is equipped to do the
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: works of service of God. And the hallmark of if
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: that's happening or not is not if the church benefits,
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: is if the community that the church resides in is
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: also flourishing with the church.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: It was fascinating.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: I had a friend who was involved with some of
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: the mainline denominations back in.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: The 80s and 70s.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: And, you know, he sent me some of the assessments
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: that they would give on an annual basis or quarterly basis,
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: whatever they did. to the mainline denomination pastors. And they
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: were supposed to assess how their church was going. And
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: it had nothing to do with the total number of
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: baptisms you were getting and those kind of things.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: I don't even think they were on there.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: They were more like, are you seeing your people reach
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: out into their community and love their neighbor? It was
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: those kind of like qualitative questions that they were asking
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: pastors to reflect on to to help them understand how
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: successful their particular local congregation was being. And it just
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: strikes me, I mean, when I read those sheets that
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: he gave me, I was like, wow, this is fantastic stuff. Like,
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: we should be doing this now. And it strikes me
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: that as you're talking, that is largely what you're trying to,
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: that is at least part of what you're trying to
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: convey here, is that the effectiveness of the leader has
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: less to do with total growth, numeric growth, we might
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: say within a congregation and far more to do with
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: how that growth actually happens, whether it's spiritual depth or
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: numeric growth, it's how that growth happens, not that it
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: happens per se.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: Is that a fair distinction? Yeah.
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I think probably a leadership. And again, it sounds
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: cheeky that I'm going to like tether both of my books,
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: you know, but I think that, yeah, I think discipleship,
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: if your congregation is, has more disciples who are living
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: out imitating Jesus, and you have qualitative and quantitative markers
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: that tell you that that is happening, you're probably doing
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: something right. It means that your leadership and the shared
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: leadership is focused on are the people of God being
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: equipped to imitate Jesus? If you're imitating Jesus, you're going
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: to be on mission. If you're imitating Jesus, you're going
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: to really think about your character and how it impacts
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: other people around you. If you're imitating Jesus, whatever room
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: you're going into, it should feel a little bit more
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: like everybody in that room is experiencing the kingdom of God.
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: That's what imitating Jesus is, right? And so I'm not
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: expecting the leaders to do all of that all the time.
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: But the leader should expect that as the success of
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: my church grows or whatever, I can only say that
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: it is successful if the congregation is being discipled and
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: not just learning something. cool or new or being cared for?
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: Is the congregation actually imitating Jesus more and more and more?
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's fascinating.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: I think, and this is probably a false dichotomy, but
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: I think it'll be a decent enough example.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: So I'll throw it out there. But if we look
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: at the growth of the early church.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: In Acts, like we're enamored with how fast it grows
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: and the numeric growth and all the wonderful things that
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: they're doing and the spread of the gospel. But then
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: if you look at the embattled church in Revelations, What
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: you realize is that sometimes growth isn't possible and that
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: what you're really trying to do is just hold back
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: the waters of the flood without, you know, losing your form.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: And I think that what you're talking about there is
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: the sort of leadership that allows Christians to be faithful
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: in both environments and the fruits of that faithfulness are
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: different in both. One produces this sort of numeric growth
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: and new believers coming in and a love for neighbor
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: and all of those different things. The other is just
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: sheer resilience and survival and conviction and lack of compromise.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: Those aren't two different types of leadership. They're a singular
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: type of leadership that is forming people into the image
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: of Christ.
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. And I think that's the Apostle Paul's point. Every
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: time that he's, I mean, even in Ephesians 4. Right.
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: In the book, I take the time to go through
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: other epistles on purpose because you want to have hyperlinks
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: or shortcuts to know why does Apostle Paul use the
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: words and the terms that he uses, right? Because two
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: first century Christians, immediately when he says a word that
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: references body or references a temple, they're thinking of something else, right?
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: Just like we should be. And so I think that
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: the church is meant to be the church in Acts
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: and the church in Revelations, you're kind of thinking about
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: they both are witnesses to the living Christ, you know,
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: and depending on the circumstance, it's what either draws people
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: or repels people. But at the end of the day,
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: you're trying to say that a community of Christ imitators
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: are going to make sure that people need to respond
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: to Jesus in one form or another, whether it's to
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: resist Jesus, Right. Or or to be compelled. Right. There's
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: a caring for one another and caring for the poor,
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: caring for the community around them. Is that attractive to people? Right.
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: And it wasn't just teaching. Right. That's the whole point
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: about the story is it wasn't just the teaching that,
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: you know, Peter's amazing one sermon that he did at
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: 3000 people like that wasn't it. But Luke didn't write
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: the book that way, right? So you're trying to think
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: through what was the compelling central key piece around it.
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: The body of Christ is meant to be either a
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: resistance to empire, current evidences of empire today, like you
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: see in a future church in Revelations, right? But it's
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: also supposed to be a center of care where all
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: are invited, all are welcome. It doesn't matter. There's no leftovers.
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: There's no ostracize in the kingdom of God, right? That
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: could be really, really repelling for people, or it could
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: be something where like, oh my gosh, this is the
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: kind of community I've longed for all my life, right?
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: But if the church isn't equipped to be that kind
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: of community, if they're not equipped to imitate Jesus, not personally,
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: but communally, together, collectively, then there isn't any chance at
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: being a source of resistance or a source of care. Yeah.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: They're both lacking there.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: We could go a million different ways with this, but
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: I know we're kind of running short on time. And
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: so I'll get this sort of last question in. If
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: you had to think of just a couple of things
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: that you would suggest to churches to sort of start
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: thinking about shared leadership, how do you even start to
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: take steps toward what would be a very radical shift,
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: I think, for a lot of churches and congregations?
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: How would you counsel them?
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I will always say, just like I do for
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: Centering Discipleship stuff, don't change anything. Don't change anything now.
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: And don't blame the people that God has given you
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: to lead and love now. Please don't do those kinds
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: of things, right? The first take is like, do a
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: good assessment. You can do it. If you're a senior pastor,
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: do it for yourself, but do it honestly. Because you
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: know what? The thing about being a senior pastor, and
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: I have been there, done that, the buck does stop
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: with you. And most of the time I start with,
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: no matter what has happened, this is still my fault.
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean? Like that is a very
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: humble approach to leadership, right? But I say the first
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: step is just take a humble assessment of where things
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: are at. you can ask questions like, do we actually
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: have disciples within our congregation? And how do I know that?
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: That's one piece. And the next thing is like, oh,
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: if I don't have that many, what do they need
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: to be equipped in? And if you're only thinking that
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: you're equipped in through a worship service, then you're probably
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: not sharing leadership. So you kind of have to start
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: thinking through, oh my goodness, how do the congregation become
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: more missional? How do they care and know their neighbors more?
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: Are they equipped in knowing how to share the gospel?
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: Do they even know what the gospel is, right? I
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: think a starting point is to name the question around,
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: is my congregation discipled? Most of the time it's no,
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: if you're really being honest. Where are there equipping gaps?
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: And then who can I bring on board to share
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: this equipping with me? Most of the book is really
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: trying to, you know, the, the, the last portion of
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: it is, is becoming very, very practical around how to
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: do structuring, identifying leaders, you know, those kinds of things.
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: But if you have a starting point, it really is.
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: Can you do an honest assessment around discipleship within your church?
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: When I found that, that part of the book really
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: interesting because I think that it, what it helped me
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: think past was structure. So like I'm not led a church,
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: so I've never been a pastor, but I've been in
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: plenty of churches and sort of helped in those contexts.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: And often what I hear from the pastors that I've
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: worked with is, well, we have small groups. And it's like, well,
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: but that's sort of the program of the structure. But
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: you still have to ask the further question, are they working?
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: You know, and some of them, I remember one articulated
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: the idea that He was just so frustrated that people
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: weren't growing. You know, they weren't being discipled. And yet
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: he had this small group thing. And so his solution was, well,
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: we need something in addition to small groups.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, well, that's a lot of work, man.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: Like, you know, and so it just takes, I think,
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: your approach in those last few chapters to I think
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: frames the questions out in such a way that you
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: wouldn't necessarily leap to, Oh, okay. I got to start
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: a discipleship program now. Or, Oh yeah, I got to,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: I got to pull in three more leaders and give
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: them titles.
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: Like none of that happens.
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: It's just sort of like a, a calmer, more deliberate
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: approach to thinking about where the gaps are and then
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: maybe how to fill them.
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I will, I will say that the uniqueness in
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: Hawaii is that for whatever reason, And probably because it
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: does have a history, a recent history of colonization, right,
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: and oppression. And so there is a suspicion against Christianity.
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: But there's this weird thing where it's saturated with a
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: lot of church leaders, planters, senior leaders from outside the community.
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: And there are so much fewer local leaders, right? And
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: when I was doing, before I started my second church plan,
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: I'm thinking through this, this is like, you know, eight
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: years ago now. And I'm thinking through why is that? Oh,
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: it's because there hasn't ever been a recognition or permission
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: giving that local leaders can lead. But you know what?
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: People probably lead differently than you, you know?
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: When we're doing for the senior pastor, when we're doing
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: that humble assessment work of kind of thinking through, is
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: this working, whatever, and then get to the point around
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: who do I need to share leadership with?
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: If your criteria for leadership is not reassessed under, are
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: they first an imitator of Jesus? Because man, you're putting
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: them into a position where they're going to start modeling things, right?
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: That is really, really important. Are they people who actually
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: are humble, hopeful people? If you don't have that kind
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: of criteria set, you're just going to constantly reproduce that person, right?
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: Because the leadership has a lot of influence, right? And
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: then the third thing to kind of consider is, are
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: they going to bring in something that you don't have?
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean? Is there a gap that
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: you can honestly say that I have a gap in this?
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: And that's why I rely on this person and we
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: share this work together. I don't think that APES models
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: and tools are the best and only tool to use.
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: But I do think that, again, because it is scripturally based,
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: I think that the Apostle Paul offers something that around
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: the kinds of leaders that it helps us get categories around.
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: I may not be 100% gifted in Shepard. I'm not
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: Wired Shepard, FYI, listeners, viewers. I'm just not.
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: I'm not.
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: I'm apostolic. I love to start new things, new initiatives,
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: take new territory, all those kinds of stuff. I love
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: multiplying and sending. But if I'm the only kind of
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: leader doing that all the time, I would never survive
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: in Hawaii because it feels so, so brash. If it
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: was just me leading, it would not work in Hawaii.
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: But if it's just me leading, it probably wouldn't also
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: work in Philadelphia. It would not be sustainable, this kind
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: of work. Because people need healing and care. People need
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: to experience welcome. People need to experience a love and
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: an emotional impulse for freedom and liberation. People need to
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: know that they can also have full access to the
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: word of God. for themselves and not rely on some
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: other higher level leader to provide it. Right. You need
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: all of these things so that there's an invitation for
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: flourishing for both the church and the community.
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: No, it's fascinating to think through. I, I really appreciated
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: the book. I think it was sort of a breath
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: of fresh air. I mean, I haven't done leadership stuff
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: in a while. Since I left higher ed, I haven't
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: really thought too much about leadership, although I do teach
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: a class on leadership. So I guess maybe I should
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: think about it a little bit more. But no, I
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: really did appreciate the book.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: And I think you're right. I think there's something.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: To the shared leadership conversation that needs to start happening,
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: at least in churches. They need to start sort of
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: thinking and assessing and trying to understand Why is it
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: that we're hamstringing the body of Christ by just having
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: an apostle in charge or just having a teacher in
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: charge or just having a, you know, whatever have you?
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: And how can we really pull together a fuller body
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: of people who are capable then of shaping disciples for
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: Jesus Christ?
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: Well said.
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: Well, this has been a fascinating conversation. I really appreciate
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: you being back on the show. This was great. And
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: like I said, I love the book, so I would
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: totally recommend it to all the listeners. The title, again,
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: is You Were.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: Never Meant to Lead Alone by M.K. Strasser.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: There will be a link to the book on IVP's website.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: In the show description, they give us a 20% discount.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: And so I would encourage you to go there, get
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: the book for 20% off, order it from IVP's website.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: There's great folks over there. And this has just been
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: a pleasure talking to you. And so I really appreciate it.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: Thank you for being here.
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: Likewise, James. Thanks so much.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: All right, everybody, take care. And we'll see you on
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: the next episode of Thinking Christian.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: Just want to take a second to thank the team
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got
• 45:55
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