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Episode #73 - Your Manager Is the Problem — Now What · HR Spot

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Hello everyone, welcome back to HR Spot.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: So today, Gary, what's the famous saying?
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: People don't leave companies, they leave managers.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's the things that's the all the time.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you see memes and quotes and posts all the time.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: At least in the HR world and manager world, that's what you see.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: So today our topic is your manager is the problem.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Now what?
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Now what?
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: When the person driving employees away, is it the person that you put in charge?
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: What do you do?
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome back, everybody.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to the HR spot.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Go, Linda.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so what happens when the employee isn't the problem, Gary?
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then what happens when it's the manager?
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's a rough spot to be in, right?
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Is you're if you're a leader or an employee or as a manager, any of those roles, that's a tough spot.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's it's a really hard conversation.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's and it's really hard for the business owner in a in a small to mid-sized company, right?
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: The bigger companies, you know, you have the different layers that help you out.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, for for the people we work with, that's that's a difficult conversation for a business owner.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think uh if an employee isn't working out, it's easy because you kind of deal with the employee and performance and what have you.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: But if the manager is the problem, that person may have been with you for years and you've entrusted them, and they may be one of your best technical performers getting results, but and maybe they helped you build the company, who knows, right?
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: And now someone or maybe multiple people are telling you that this person that you've relied on is actually having a negative impact on the team.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's a real different conversation, yes.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: And we all know owners will you know put their head in the sand, right?
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: They don't want to hear it, they'll say, Oh, that's just how he is, or she's tough, she'll get results.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: Or one of my favorites is well, nobody's complained.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then right?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: So if maybe nobody else feels comfortable complaining, yeah, and you know, if it's the well, this is the way it's always been, or whatever kind of wording, it doesn't make it comfortable, right?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then that person employee is gonna have a hard time, they're not gonna feel comfortable complaining if that's the way it's always been.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: And let's let's I want to change the word.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's not always complaining, right?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: They might just be giving you a heads up.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta listen, right?
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um maybe it's just they expressed concerns or uh didn't communicate the frustration, but maybe they just said adios, I'm leaving and they left the company.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: Then what?
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what we're gonna talk about today.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: What do you do when your manager is the problem?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, first question how do you know, Gary?
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: How do you know?
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's difficult.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Again, you gotta listen and you gotta pay attention.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I think let's start with how do you know?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think owners need to be careful about jumping to conclusions or assuming, because we all know what assume means, right?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: You can't just assume either side, you can't just assume.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, one employee complains about a manager, does that automatically mean you've got a bad manager?
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: What does that mean?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it doesn't always mean you have a bad manager, so that's where HR has to kind of check it out and and see what's actually happening, right?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: So a manager might be um holding someone accountable, it doesn't automatically make them a bad manager.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: We all know employees don't like being held accountable and sometimes they act out.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: But um when employees are being told, hey, you're missing a deadline, you're not meeting my expectations, they're gonna complain about the manager.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's just a given.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: But we're looking for patterns.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: Are multiple employees saying the same thing?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Is turnover unusually high on the manager's team?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: Are people trying to transfer out of the department?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: Are good employees suddenly disengaged?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: Are there repeated complaints about communication, maybe favoritism, maybe disrespectfulness, maybe inconsistent expectations?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Those patterns tell us lots of things.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: And what you know, there's another one too.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I was thinking about it is what if that person is one of the employees on that team maybe is calling in sick or taking PTO on a somewhat frequent basis, right?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: That might not be because they're sick, it just might be they don't want to deal with that manager, right?
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're just constantly maybe taking time off.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you know, that pattern, it's it's an important distinction, right?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be aware there's a difference between a manager who's quote unquote unpopular because they're holding people accountable, and a manager who's actually having a negative impact, who's actually damaging the organization.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: Not being consistent with accountability would be damaging the organization, right?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: If you know, maybe they're holding people accountable, but you know, one person they get a write up after three absences or tardies, and then another person gets six, you know, that's gonna be negative, right?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's gonna be damaging.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: And leadership really shouldn't be a popularity contest.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like you shouldn't just let people walk all over you and not hold them accountable just so you could be the nice guy or nice gal.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and if I'm the owner, I I don't want my managers afraid to manage because they're worried someone's gonna complain, right?
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: You you just want them to stay consistent and be a you know be a good leader, absolutely, and and that's why we don't diagnose a management problem based on whether employees like the manager, we're actually looking at behavior.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: So let's dive into part two.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: The great employee who became a terrible manager.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, Gary, why do you think companies keep promoting people who aren't ready to manage?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great question, Linda.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: And there's so many different ways to go with that.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I think we promote, we as leaders or companies, you know, we promote people based on what they're already good at, like what they've done, right?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: Your best salesperson becomes the sales manager, or your best technician becomes the operation manager.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, your best accountant becomes a controller, or what have you.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: Insert the titles there, and suddenly they have a team reporting to them.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: But none of those things automatically make that person a leader.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean that they know how to lead people.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Most of the time, those people haven't been coached and trained on that.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think businesses sometimes underestimate just how difficult those skills and that role is, especially if you're constantly been an individual contributor and now you have a team, right?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: The person may have spent 10 years becoming great at what they did, what their job was.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: And 10 minutes learning how to manage somebody else, right?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Not 10 minutes isn't gonna do it.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's the part that breaks my heart as a HR professional.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and we constantly get a call six months later saying everything's falling apart.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: The managers are saying, you know, the new manager's saying, I don't understand why these people just can't do their jobs.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: And the employees say, My manager never tells me what they want.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: So they we promote these great individual contributors, like you said, and we have zero training on how to manage people.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: That drives me bonkers.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that it may mean the manager isn't necessarily a bad person or they don't have the good skills at what they were doing, and it doesn't make them a bad employee, they may simply be untrained.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: No one gave them the opportunity, no one gave them the education, no one gave them this the tools.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: If we talk about the tools to do the job, yeah, and that's the important distinction.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um because an untrained manager may still be coachable, a manager who's deliberately disrespectful, retaliatory, discriminatory, or abusive, that's a whole different ball game.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: But an untrained manager can be coachable, and that's not to give us a plug, Gary, but that's what we're good at.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and well, you should go ahead and plug us, that's okay.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, those those people they you they learned all the way up to this point, they show that they can learn, right?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: So they are coachable, they've shown and proven that.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's important.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they you gotta give them the opportunity to learn, though.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I think if we go on to the next one, is but but they get results, Linda.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: That manager, that manager gets results.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: So let's tackle this one.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: This is a big one to say I'm the business owner and I got a manager who's difficult.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: People complain.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, the manager is demanding, abrasive.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Linda he gets results, right?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: People do what he says.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: His department hits all the numbers every month.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: He holds everybody to that and they get it all done.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Then what?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: What do you tell me if I'm the I'm the leader?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I would ask you what those results are costing you, right?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because it all comes back to culture.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think we talked about it in many podcasts.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Just because they hit the number is not the only measure of success.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: If he hits his goal, but you lose three amazing employees every year because nobody can stand working for him, what did those results actually cost?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have the recruiting cost, the training cost, less productivity, potential overtime?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: You definitely have culture issues and employee relations issues, and maybe even a legal risk depending on the behavior.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think owners fall into this trap of measuring what they can easily see, what they just, you know, what they see on a daily basis, right?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, we we got the numbers, right?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not always looking at everything else.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: I can see the numbers, I can see the production.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I can see the number, the revenue, we're making money.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's much harder to see the employees who stopped sharing ideas six months ago because every time the employee spoke up, the manager shut them down, right?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we are you know, we're not doing that.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: And just you know, snap decision.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it the high performer who's quietly interviewing somewhere else, um that doesn't show up on your your PL every week, every month, right?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: It shows up six months from now when the person resigns and now you're scrambling and all these things, it costs you if you're not paying attention.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then everybody says, We had no idea she was unhappy.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, there were signs everywhere, but you kind of chose to ignore them, right?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: You have to pay attention.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, okay, moving on to the next one.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the phrase that should make owners nervous and maybe cringe a little bit.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's a phrase I hear, and it always gets my attention.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody knows how he is.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Ooh, that's not always great, right?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: No, because think about what you're actually saying.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody knows this person behaves poorly, everybody knows that it's been going on, and everybody knows that leadership allows it.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: Again, that jacks up the culture.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: We're condoning the bad behavior of the manager, yeah.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it goes back to that, you know, one of my pet peeves that they just can't stand and makes me nervous or just cringe is the it's the way it's always been, that's the way he's always been, that's the way he's always led the team, right?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, that's the part I think owners miss.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Is once the entire company knows about the behavior, employees aren't just judging the manager anymore, they're judging leadership's response to any of these things, especially to the response to the manager.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: And your employees are watching you and what you tolerate.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: You can put all the values and the missions on the wall.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: You can talk about respect and teamwork.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: But if everybody is watching that manager violate these values every single day with zero consequences, your employees know which message is real.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: They're always watching.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: They they put it down in the back of their head, even if they're not doing it consciously, they they're storing that information, right?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what do you if you do?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Part five here.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: What if the manager is your friend?
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, then what?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's tough.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Let's make make it harder here, Linda.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna I'm gonna try to stump you on this.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: What if the manager is someone you're personally close to?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: You've worked together for a long time, 10, 15 years.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Heck, maybe even built the the company together.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: You've worked side by side, and oh, this one is not one of my favorites, but they're you're working your friend outside of work, too, right?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like your buddies, you go golfing and you go to the bar and you go to games, all that stuff.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now what?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: What do you do?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's when owners need objective information.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's very easy to think, oh, he never treated me that way.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, of course not, you're the flipping owner.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: So we need to understand how this manager behaves with the people who report directly to them.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, and there's a you know, maybe an unconscious thing, but hey, that manager probably thinks they're protected, right?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: I could do whatever I want.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think owners, though, have to be willing to separate loyalty from accountability.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I I share this a lot when we do trainings for new managers and managers that are now leading their friends or past co-workers, is you gotta have a clear expectation of what the role is, right?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Loyal loyalty doesn't mean I allow you to behave however you want.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, if if we've worked together for a long time for 10-15 years, I should be able to have a difficult conversation with you.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: If we're friends, you should be able to talk about that, and it's not going to affect your friendship because it's about business.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that and that conversation might sound something like you're incredibly valuable to this organization, but we're seeing a pattern in how you're managing the team, and that has to change.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that's very different from attacking the person's character.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: We are just going to talk about specific behaviors.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: I can't wait.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: I want to hear more.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about the conversation with the manager.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say we've established that there is actually a problem.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just uh, you know, assumed, but there actually is a problem.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: How would you recommend that we handle this?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so the same way we tell a manager to address an employee, you're gonna be very specific.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: You're not gonna say people think you're difficult.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's too vague, and that invites uh them to potential argument.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: So instead, we're gonna get very, very specific.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: We've received multiple reports that you're raising your voice during meetings and criticizing employees in front of coworkers.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Or another way is we've had three employees leave your department in eight months, each raise similar concerns about communication and how feedback was delivered.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this is something that you can actually visualize is happening, you can see it.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: We're discussing facts, and now you can document it.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'm not gonna forget that, right?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: You have to document these things, and even if you find things that are unsubstantiated, you have the documents now, right?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like you document, you did your due diligence, and then I want to make sure the manager understands the expectation, not just be nicer when you're having these conversations.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because what does that really do?
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: What does that change?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: How does that person know what be nicer means?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so maybe it's um correct employees privately, or maybe it's stop interrupting people during meetings, hold regular one-on-ones, set expectations in writing, don't send angry emails at 11:30 at night, and allow employees to ask questions without embarrassing them.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we you know, we talk about it, right?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Is reprimand in private and praise in public.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: You don't do that in front of a big group of people.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's not okay.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Don't send them an email at 11:30 at night and then wonder why that they haven't responded right away.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: Those aren't those aren't good, clear expectations.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I would add something from the leadership side.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Don't assume my favorite word, don't assume the manager understands how to replace the bad behavior.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: If I tell somebody stop micromanaging, and then just leave it at that, that's not enough.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: What do I want them to do instead?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: How often should they check in?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Be detailed.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: What decisions can employees make independently?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: Where does the manager need visibility?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Give them a new specific behavior, not just a list of things that they're doing wrong.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: It needs to be clear.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's great advice, Gary.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: And let's go into one of our favorites, coaching or consequences.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds like a game show.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Coaching or consequences.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Next up is Linda Michaels.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Woo! You run up to the standards.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's great, right?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: How do we decide whether how do we decide whether this manager needs coaching or actual corrective action?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so obviously it depends on the behaviors and the history.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: So if it's a brand new manager who's genuinely hasn't been trained, I'm probably gonna lean heavily into coaching and training and mentoring.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: But if this is the fourth time we've discussed the same behavior, that's a total different ballgame.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: And conduct is serious enough that you're you're not gonna start with basic coaching.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why you need to evaluate each situation individually.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: And not to beat the drum, but that's why you have the documentation.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: If this is the fourth time, I hope you have documentation, right?
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: If it comes up the fourth time and you haven't done a darn squat about this up till now, the onus is on you a little bit, right?
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: You kind of you failed a little bit, and so I so it's not really managers get unlimited chances, right?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: You you don't go four times without having a conversation and a and a documentation, and no, we we need to fix this.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: We can't wait four times or five times, or this is the way they've always been.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I always look at it this way: managers are actually held to higher standards because of the authority they have.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I look at HR even has even higher standards because we're the ones that set the policy, right?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: So a manager's held to a higher standard because they're they're representing the organization, they're making decisions.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: About employees, they're influencing whether people leave or stay.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and they're they're teaching the rest of the organization what leadership looks like, right?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: They're leading by example, and it's not always a good example, right?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: But just they're leading by example.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: What they do, other people see, and then they know that it's okay if it's not being addressed at the leadership.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a really big responsibility to lead the way you want others to act.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: So what if they don't change Gary?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, this is the hard part.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: This is why people don't like HR, right?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: HR gets that reputation.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: So here's the uncomfortable end to all this, right?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: You've coached them, you've trained them, you've communicated clear expectations.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: You've documented everything, you documented the issues and the conversations, but unfortunately, nothing changed.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's still the same because this is the way they've always been.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: Now what, Linda?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Then you have a decision to make, right?
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes owners try everything except making the decision.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: They maybe reorganize the team, they move employees away from the manager, they change the reporting relationships, they make excuses.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: And at some point you have to ask, are we redesigning our entire company to accommodate that manager's bad behavior?
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: But that's rough.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: But you have to think about it, right?
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: If you're if you're aware of all these things and you've gone through the process, now you have to look at it, right?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: What do we do?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Do we change the work?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: Do we change the company?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Do we change the way we do things just because this this manager?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a great question, right?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I've moved three employees to a different manager rather than dealing with one, I haven't solved the problem.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: I've really kind of protected the problem, right?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thinking, hey, the next people that'll come in, they won't they won't raise a uh a red flag, right?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: They'll just do it, keep doing it.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: But you protected that person.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe the person shouldn't manage people anymore, right?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe there's an individual contributor role where they'd be incredibly valuable, or maybe after the appropriate review and consideration, maybe the employment relationship just needs to end.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Not everyone who is great at their profession should be managing people.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that's, you know, I kind of want to put this little caveat in there, right?
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: Not everybody is meant to man to manage people.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe it's okay to have them be an individual contributor again, right?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: They can still add value if they're not being mean to people or abrasive or what have you.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that that's it's okay if you have that conversation and find out what works best, and it might be termination too.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, okay.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: What your employees are watching, Linda, there's another side to this, right?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: What happens to the rest of the team when leadership finally, finally takes action and addresses the manager?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Then what?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think they do the happy dance, yeah.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so the employees notice, and sometimes the reaction is almost like, oh, thank God, you finally fixed the problem.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, the employees aren't expecting perfection, but they do want to know when there's a legitimate problem, and actually leadership will take the time to address it.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's I mean, it's similar to a toxic employee, right?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: Other employees in the culture is affected, and then when they finally go, everybody goes, Ah, and then the next week when you come into work, everybody's kind of smiling and feeling a little bit better.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of funny how that works.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um the opposite is true.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: If I tell employees we care about your feedback, we want to know, then they take the risk to be vulnerable and tell me something difficult, but I don't do anything about it.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: I really just taught them something, right?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you've taught them not to tell you next time.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that's horrible.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that's bigger than just the one manager.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now you have a trust problem without within the organization because that'll spread too, right?
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: So here, I want to see if you could give us five questions for business owners.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: Make them think.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: Love it.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: So let's leave everybody with five questions.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're wondering whether you have a management problem, ask yourself.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, is there a pattern of complaints or turnover under the same manager?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Number two, are good employees behaving differently after working for this person?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Number three, have we clearly told the manager what needs to change?
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Number four, have we given the manager the training, the tools, and coaching to succeed?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: And lastly, if nothing changes, are we actually willing to hold this person accountable?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I sure hope you're holding them accountable from day one.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: But and I gotta I gotta add a couple here, but the first one is kind of unofficial sixth question, right?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: If this manager behaved exactly the same way for the next couple of years, would you be okay with that?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you think about it for a second, if the same behaviors kept happening, are you okay?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, oh, this is great.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna keep rolling with it.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because if your your immediate reaction is, heck no, absolutely not, then you probably already know you need to address this and step up and address it, right?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I have one more here for you, Linda.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: And this is probably a topic for a completely another podcast or even a podcast series.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: What if the manager that we're talking about is the leader?
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because we all know that it starts at the top and rolls down, right?
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's definitely extra innings, Gary.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right, and that might even be a series.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: That might be more.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I I I don't want to lose sight of that, right?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just the manager because sometimes it's the leader.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, no one's gonna hold them accountable, but you know, it's a different process, but I don't want to lose sight of that for people listening.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, you know, if you're the leader, think about it too, where you are in that.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: So here's a good takeaway from today.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: When good employees keep leaving the same department, don't just look at the employees who left.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: Look at who they work for.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and don't confuse being a strong performer with being perfect strong leader, right?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't always work that way.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Those are two completely different jobs and different skill sets, right?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: They may overlap now because that person's gonna be have the knowledge and do some of the same job, but it's different.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Your best salesperson may become an incredible sales manager, they might, but you have to teach them how to lead.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: Those things just don't always come naturally, it's pretty rare.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: And your best technician may become a fantastic operations leader because they know all of this, and maybe they're already doing it.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Who knows?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: But don't assume that management skills magically appear when they get promoted.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: No one gets a magical handbook when they get promoted that comes with right, it doesn't come with their promotion.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Here's all the skills you've automatically got in your toolbox now.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't work that way.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: We wish, yeah.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: I do, I really do.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: So when a manager's struggling, we we have to address it early, right?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: We want to coach them, we want to train them, we want to set clear expectations, we want to hold them accountable because one bad manager can affect far more than just one employee, it affects the team and the culture.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think those things should be the clear expectations should be given as soon as they're promoted.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is what we're expecting.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and if your company's value values say, people matter.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: Your employees need to see those values show up when the conversation gets difficult, not just when everything is going well.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: You can't say we have an open door policy and then come in and shut your door.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like, right?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you you have to kind of the proof is in the pudding.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks for joining us on another episode of HR Spot.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: If you're a business owner out there dealing with a difficult manager, or you're starting to wonder whether the problem you're seeing on a team actually begins with its leader, this is where we can come in and help you figure out what's really happening and what to do next.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: So call us.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're your HR partner.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: We want to make sure that you're that you're successful.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, thanks for sharing your wisdom, Gary.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we'll see you on another episode of HR Spot.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: All right, I'm looking forward to it.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, everybody, reach out to us.