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Cults: Who is this "The Leader?" · Stuff You Should Know

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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff you should know
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Speaker 1: from House Stuff Works dot Com. Hey, and welcome to
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Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with me as always his
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Speaker 1: brother Chuck Bryant. Brother Chuck. How are you doing today,
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Speaker 1: josh Odie? I'm doing just fine. Do you know what
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Speaker 1: I was gonna leave with? I just had Josh Odi
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Speaker 1: ready at the ready. Okay, you'll understand everybody in the second, right, Chuck.
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Speaker 1: I know you know this, But let's go back to
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Speaker 1: the night of March. Do you know what happened in
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Speaker 1: Rancho Santa Fe, a suburb of a suburb of San
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Speaker 1: Diego that night? I do? Okay, Well, I'm gonna tell
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Speaker 1: you anyway. Uh. Thirty nine people Well, beginning that night,
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Speaker 1: over three days, beginning that night, thirty nine people gave
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Speaker 1: up their lives. Uh. And they are. They were collectively
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Speaker 1: known as Heaven's Gate. They were the members of the
1:04
Speaker 1: Heaven's Gate cult famously wore those black nikes um and
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Speaker 1: beginning on Marche, which was the spring solstice, the vernal
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Speaker 1: equinox um, a commet was coming by the hail bop comment,
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Speaker 1: And what the Heaven's Gate members believed was that UM
1:23
Speaker 1: flying using the comment is cover, was a spaceship that
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Speaker 1: they could go rendezvous with the pilots and basically UM
1:30
Speaker 1: be picked up as spirits and attached to the pilots
1:34
Speaker 1: of this spaceship because the world was coming to an
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Speaker 1: end here and they needed to get out of here.
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Speaker 1: But they had to commit ritualistic suicide. So on the
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Speaker 1: first night, about a third of them took a combination
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Speaker 1: of apple sauce and UM pharmaceuticals and I think Jack
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Speaker 1: Daniels or something uh and died and for good measure
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Speaker 1: put bags over their heads uh. And then once they
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Speaker 1: were dead, the other members cleaned them up and so
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Speaker 1: on UM. And this happened for three nights in a row,
2:01
Speaker 1: until thirty nine people were dead and found in this mansion.
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Speaker 1: UM two didn't didn't make it. They weren't there something,
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Speaker 1: and they went and got a hotel room and killed
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Speaker 1: themselves in the desert like a month later. UM. But
2:16
Speaker 1: what's what's interesting about Heaven's Gate is that they all
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Speaker 1: of these were suicides. There was no murder. And you
2:25
Speaker 1: go back and look at UM what are called like
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Speaker 1: their exit videos. There's about ten hours of tape of
2:31
Speaker 1: the members talking and they seem very excited about what
2:34
Speaker 1: they're going to do, seem vari at peace. It's disturbing
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Speaker 1: to watch now, but they seem very relaxed, very at peace,
2:40
Speaker 1: and very much like they know what they're doing. Yeah. Um,
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Speaker 1: So aside from even though these these were um, these
2:47
Speaker 1: weren't forced, they were suicides, and because it ended in
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Speaker 1: a apocalyptic suit mass suicide pact, Heaven's Gate would be
2:58
Speaker 1: what's called a destructive which we're Although it's titled How
3:03
Speaker 1: Cults Work, this episode is actually about destructive cults are
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Speaker 1: the ones that are get all depressed. One reason why
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Speaker 1: we're gonna we need to make that differentiation is because
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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, um, the in a lot
3:17
Speaker 1: of cases the only difference between cult and a religion
3:22
Speaker 1: is whether or not it's mainstream. Right, careful, but it's true. Well,
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Speaker 1: there's a few differences. Mainstream is one. Uh, Usually a
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Speaker 1: mainstream religion will have a hierarchy, whereas a cult will
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Speaker 1: have the single leader in the hierarchy in theory keeps
3:37
Speaker 1: one another in check. And uh, the cults usually demand
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Speaker 1: absolute um commitment, like you live there yeah, and whereas
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Speaker 1: a mainstream religion generally does not require that you can
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Speaker 1: have your own home. Okay, so we're not saying it's
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Speaker 1: the same thing as religion. No, But if you are
3:56
Speaker 1: a sociologist a psychologist UM, and you've there's going to
4:01
Speaker 1: be very little distinction between the two UM. So that's
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Speaker 1: not the case though with UM destructive or totalist cults,
4:11
Speaker 1: they're very different, right they are. You You can make
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Speaker 1: the case that religion or a non destructive cult UM
4:18
Speaker 1: helps its members get over their vulnerabilities, I think, is
4:22
Speaker 1: how it's put in this article. Through spiritual guidance support,
4:26
Speaker 1: it's a good place of growth, is what it's intended
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Speaker 1: to be. A destructive cult is basically UM run by
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Speaker 1: a person with the intent of absolute control over the
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Speaker 1: members in a complete surrender of their will. I have
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Speaker 1: a question, and that's this is a good time to
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Speaker 1: put it in there. I wonder sometimes because we're gonna
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Speaker 1: talk about cult leaders specifically in a bit, but I
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Speaker 1: wonder if the cult leader and I think it it varies,
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Speaker 1: actually believes Like when I see Marshall apple White, I
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Speaker 1: think he really believed this stuff seemed to when I
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Speaker 1: see a Jim Jones, he seems like a huckster. Well,
5:04
Speaker 1: he was on a lot of drugs, on drugs, uh
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Speaker 1: having sex with multiple women. Umm, Martial apple White was
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Speaker 1: not having sex with multiple women. He was a unique
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Speaker 1: and not into women. Um. But my point is, like
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Speaker 1: the cult leader, I guess vary. Sometimes they really actually
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Speaker 1: believe that. Sometimes they're you know, manipulators who are power
5:27
Speaker 1: hungry and and maybe after money or what have you. Right,
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Speaker 1: And I think that there's probably a transition that any
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Speaker 1: cult leader would undergo as the power and loyalty grows.
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Speaker 1: And even if you are a huckster, you're eventually going
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Speaker 1: to start buying into your own hype just because it's
5:42
Speaker 1: so appealing, you know. Good point. But yeah, I think
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Speaker 1: that is a great point to to put in their chuck,
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Speaker 1: that there are cult leaders out there who believe in
5:50
Speaker 1: what they're saying. Um. So we've we've said basically the
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Speaker 1: primary characteristic of a destructive cult is that there's uh
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Speaker 1: at solute control over the members, a surrender of will
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Speaker 1: um to the group and ultimately to the leader. Right,
6:08
Speaker 1: who is this the leader? Is that time? Yeah? Okay,
6:13
Speaker 1: no no, no no, no, no, no no, no leader. We
6:16
Speaker 1: mentioned the Simpsons, whether movementarians. Yeah, remember the right episode
6:22
Speaker 1: the flying bikes, the hover bikes with the comb in
6:26
Speaker 1: the wax paper. So Simpsons fans, hold your emails. Yes,
6:31
Speaker 1: we didn't mention it covered right, But um so let's
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Speaker 1: let's talk about um. I guess this authoritarian leadership structure
6:39
Speaker 1: you you might call it. What are the hallmarks of it? Well,
6:43
Speaker 1: it's one of the hallmarks is like we said, it's
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Speaker 1: it's typically just one dude. Let me say dude, because
6:50
Speaker 1: it's usually a man. Although there are some um instances
6:53
Speaker 1: that's not sure. We'll get to those in a minute, right,
6:55
Speaker 1: And that's one of the problems because power, we've seen
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Speaker 1: it time and time again, can corrupt even the most
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Speaker 1: supurate heart, and a lot of these aren't pure at
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Speaker 1: heart to begin with. And then uh, another problem here
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Speaker 1: is that there they operate outside the mainstream. So in
7:12
Speaker 1: the case of Jim Jones, which I know we're gonna
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Speaker 1: get to in detail, they were in Ghana, Guiana, Guiana.
7:18
Speaker 1: Oh God, that's a different place, right, They're in Guiana,
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Speaker 1: So they were way outside the mainstream, so they didn't
7:24
Speaker 1: have people checking up on them. And it's it's the
7:26
Speaker 1: isolation factor. Is huge. Yes, if the religious group that
7:30
Speaker 1: you subscribe to UM lives on a ranch together, it
7:35
Speaker 1: may be a cult. Yeah we're in the woods or
7:40
Speaker 1: in Guiana. Right. Um. There's some other I guess kind
7:45
Speaker 1: of giveaways that become less and less apparent the more
7:48
Speaker 1: immersed you become. UM. And that would be deception and recruiting,
7:54
Speaker 1: right UM thought reformed techniques, which, although very controversial UM,
8:00
Speaker 1: are believed to be real and can have an an
8:04
Speaker 1: effect on a person's outlook. Yeah, all right, we'll get
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Speaker 1: into that as well, in much more detail. And we've
8:11
Speaker 1: got into a big time in brainwashing, we did, and
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Speaker 1: and that's UM. A lot of those are very similar.
8:17
Speaker 1: You brainwash me, I did. Remember you're no longer a hipster,
8:21
Speaker 1: that's right, but I still have the goatee. Uh. Good
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Speaker 1: out outside is bad, whoever is on the inside is good.
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Speaker 1: That's a huge homework. Like a real us in them,
8:31
Speaker 1: a clear divide is on us and very much, which
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Speaker 1: can lead to a lot of feelings of persecution, paranoia
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Speaker 1: and UM. Generally an idea that or that's I guess
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Speaker 1: generally supported by the idea that UM, since most destructive
8:46
Speaker 1: cults are religious in nature, Uh, that the in group,
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Speaker 1: the cult is saved and everybody outside the bad people
8:53
Speaker 1: are all damned to hell. So let's talk about the
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Speaker 1: the leader himself. The leader, Yeah, well, they're usually very charismatic,
9:04
Speaker 1: very charming, can turn on the world with a smile,
9:07
Speaker 1: or at least their cult with a smile. They which
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Speaker 1: gets people, you know, very much readily able to follow
9:13
Speaker 1: them without question. Um. They're very devoted. They don't question
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Speaker 1: the leader. They don't question what the leader tells them
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Speaker 1: to do. They you know, this is once you're in,
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Speaker 1: not you know, initially there may be questions, but after
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Speaker 1: the thought reform takes place, well you're in. The reason
9:32
Speaker 1: forethought reform is to get rid of those questions, right, yeah. Uh.
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Speaker 1: They are typically either say their God and considered God
9:39
Speaker 1: or the Messiah, or that they are the only path
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Speaker 1: to God. Their prophets. Essentially, they have some sort of
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Speaker 1: religious designation, right, singular religious designation that no one else
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Speaker 1: in the cult has but them, which means whether the leader.
9:56
Speaker 1: And you can't really topple the leader unless you too
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Speaker 1: are prophet, which I imagine that's got to be a
10:02
Speaker 1: surprising day for everybody in the Coultwan. You know, maybe
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Speaker 1: a number two or three in command goes, you know what,
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Speaker 1: I just found out that I am a prophet as well,
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Speaker 1: and the leaders like um trouble brewing. Yah. The other
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Speaker 1: important thing here too, I thought was interesting that typically
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Speaker 1: cult members are devoted to the leader and not the
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Speaker 1: even the leader's ideas. Yeah. That's a good point too, Like,
10:24
Speaker 1: you know, Jim Jones, stay worshiped Jim Jones, not his
10:28
Speaker 1: Christian ideals. Because as pointed out Um, Jim Jones UH
10:34
Speaker 1: and David Koresh, who was the leader of the Branch
10:38
Speaker 1: division davidians Um both started out in in what we
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Speaker 1: would consider mainstream religious groups. Jim Jones was a pastor
10:46
Speaker 1: Christian pastor. He was the Disciples of Christ was his
10:49
Speaker 1: original Christian group, and David Koresh's was he was originally
10:54
Speaker 1: in the Seventh day Adventist. Yeah. Um. And one of
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Speaker 1: the ways that cult leaders become cult leaders is that
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Speaker 1: they are often overly enthusiastic maybe in their mainstream religious groups.
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Speaker 1: They freak their mainstream religious groups out pretty much and
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Speaker 1: they're like, you need to get out here. But their
11:15
Speaker 1: ideas or their charisma or whatever, there's something about them
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Speaker 1: that makes other members of the church go, I'm going
11:23
Speaker 1: with this guy, splinter off, create your own cult. It's
11:26
Speaker 1: no longer mainstream, so you're cold. And in the case
11:29
Speaker 1: of Koresh, he was um showed some instability and some
11:33
Speaker 1: of the things that he was influencing some of the
11:35
Speaker 1: the youth in the church. They said, no, you don't
11:38
Speaker 1: like what you're telling the kids, so you need to
11:39
Speaker 1: get out of here. Yeah, and we don't like that
11:41
Speaker 1: you're touching the kids, so you need to get out.
11:43
Speaker 1: And I'm going out. I'm taking the kids with me. Yeah.
11:45
Speaker 1: Apparently also um uh, not Jim Jones, but the prophet
11:50
Speaker 1: Mo who kidnapped Elizabeth Smart. Apparently he and David Koresh.
11:55
Speaker 1: And I was reading this. I only saw it in
11:57
Speaker 1: one place, but I didn't get a chance to really
11:59
Speaker 1: cry us reference it. Um that both of them had
12:02
Speaker 1: their first sexual experiences with far, far older women, like
12:07
Speaker 1: Koresh's um first encounter with a woman was with the
12:11
Speaker 1: seventies six year old and I mean, you laugh, but
12:15
Speaker 1: I mean, like, I think he's a teenager. But um,
12:20
Speaker 1: what's strange is both of them went the opposite way
12:23
Speaker 1: after that, Like Koresh's second wife was fourteen. Um, the
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Speaker 1: prophet Mo kidnapped Elizabeth Smart and I think she was
12:32
Speaker 1: like fourteen as well, So, um, there's interesting. I think
12:36
Speaker 1: that's something for deeper study, don't you think, Like if
12:38
Speaker 1: you're sexual encounter, so the very old person become a
12:43
Speaker 1: cult leader, that's probably a pretty good predictor you're gonna
12:46
Speaker 1: take very young wives and the FBI is gonna come
12:48
Speaker 1: set your compound on fire. At the very least, it
12:50
Speaker 1: shows you might be unstable. Sure, I don't know if
12:53
Speaker 1: they would just see that and say a variety of
12:55
Speaker 1: a spice of life or I mean, surely you've seen
12:58
Speaker 1: Harold and Maud so it can go really well. So
13:02
Speaker 1: you're right, Josh. A lot of times occult leaders are
13:04
Speaker 1: former religious mainstream religious leaders or members. Not always in
13:09
Speaker 1: the case of like a Charlie Manson, right, who who
13:11
Speaker 1: personifies the huckster you're talking about. Yeah, he wasn't a
13:14
Speaker 1: religious dude at all. He was um, psychotic and emotionally
13:19
Speaker 1: disturbed from the time that he was a young kid
13:22
Speaker 1: and a thief and a vandal and eventually rapist and
13:26
Speaker 1: pimp and fraud a pretty big jerk in general jerk.
13:32
Speaker 1: So he was let out of prison. Um as everyone knows.
13:34
Speaker 1: At one point in the late sixties, I went to
13:36
Speaker 1: San Francisco. All the hippies were very susceptible to his charms,
13:41
Speaker 1: his little short midget redneck charms. Right, because when you're
13:45
Speaker 1: on acid, Charlie Manson makes a lot of sense. Yeah,
13:49
Speaker 1: you know, But you know, I never heard him talk
13:51
Speaker 1: until later in life, and when I did, I went
13:54
Speaker 1: I had no idea he was such a redneck. Oh yeah,
13:57
Speaker 1: I heard his accent and I was like, you gotta
13:59
Speaker 1: be kidding me. He this is the guy that got
14:02
Speaker 1: people to murder all these faults and that that forced
14:04
Speaker 1: like labored stare like, look at my eyes, and it's
14:08
Speaker 1: just laughable. Yea, it is, Sorry, Charlie, but it worked
14:11
Speaker 1: in his case, and the Manson family famously killed um
14:15
Speaker 1: how many people, seven people, Roman Plantcy's wife, most of
14:19
Speaker 1: them at the at Sharon Tate's house, Sharon Tate. Yeah,
14:22
Speaker 1: and he didn't do it himself, which is, you know,
14:24
Speaker 1: one of the traits of a good cult leaders. You
14:26
Speaker 1: can get people to do things for you. Yeah. But um,
14:28
Speaker 1: the the US prosecutors still, or the California prosecutors still
14:33
Speaker 1: managed to get him put away for life, even though
14:36
Speaker 1: he didn't kill anybody, just the ordering of these murders.
14:40
Speaker 1: They got him pretty good. I think the state of
14:43
Speaker 1: California was more than willing to keep Charlie Manson locked
14:47
Speaker 1: up forever though. It's well, he's pretty notorious for in
14:50
Speaker 1: his parole hearings just saying really crazy things still where
14:53
Speaker 1: they're like, okay, yeah, you clearly don't have any interest.
14:55
Speaker 1: I remember being a kid, like I never understood that
14:58
Speaker 1: when I when I came to understand there was a
15:01
Speaker 1: Charlie Manson, and like he did say the stuff and
15:03
Speaker 1: at parole hearings like why would you do that? And
15:06
Speaker 1: my dad told me, like, if he gets out of prisons,
15:09
Speaker 1: he's dead. And now I don't think that that's necessarily true,
15:12
Speaker 1: although he probably would still believe that. Um, but he's
15:16
Speaker 1: probably so institutionalized he wouldn't know what to do because
15:19
Speaker 1: he was in jail for years off and on, you know,
15:22
Speaker 1: from his teenage years on. He has a cell phone.
15:25
Speaker 1: They caught him on the cell phone recently in jail.
15:27
Speaker 1: What are you calling me? Are you sure? I'm positive?
15:33
Speaker 1: So Manson referred to himself as God and Satan both
15:37
Speaker 1: well his followers did. Yeah, um, squeaky From. Yeah, apparently
15:42
Speaker 1: after Charlie was locked up, Um, Squeaky From decided that
15:47
Speaker 1: his plight was losing media attention, Charlie's plight, Um, and
15:52
Speaker 1: so she uh tried to shoot Gerald Ford and it
15:57
Speaker 1: definitely got attention. Again. I think that that, if anything,
16:00
Speaker 1: if if the murders didn't cement the Manson family into
16:04
Speaker 1: the American psyche forever, Squeaky From managed to finally put
16:09
Speaker 1: the glue in the bone, as it were, with the
16:11
Speaker 1: attempted presidential assassination. Yeah, and she also carved an X
16:15
Speaker 1: in her forehead on the courthouse steps. And Manson still
16:19
Speaker 1: has a swastia on his forehead. It's tough to get
16:22
Speaker 1: rid of. Yeah, just ask the Inglories bastards. Right, so, Josh, Yes,
16:29
Speaker 1: let's talk about recruitment. Yeah, what kind of a person
16:34
Speaker 1: would fall for this? Clearly, a raving lunatic is the
16:38
Speaker 1: only person who could become a full occult member, right, wrong?
16:43
Speaker 1: What and seen? We uh a lot a lot of
16:49
Speaker 1: times you think of them as mentally ill, but they've
16:51
Speaker 1: done studies and apparently there's only a slightly higher incidence
16:54
Speaker 1: of mental instability and cult members then you and me, Well,
16:58
Speaker 1: mental illness at least, yeah, and the than in the
17:02
Speaker 1: regular population. What they have found that most people in
17:07
Speaker 1: the normal population don't have that cult members usually have
17:11
Speaker 1: in common is that when they were recruited, it was
17:14
Speaker 1: during a particularly stressful period in their life. You know,
17:17
Speaker 1: that scale of stressful life events like death of a spouse, divorce, um,
17:24
Speaker 1: death of a child, adolescence. Yeah, that's that's up there,
17:28
Speaker 1: really far Um, any of those make you, while you're
17:33
Speaker 1: going through them, better cult recruit than you would normally be.
17:38
Speaker 1: You've been stressed out lately. Oh I just joined up?
17:42
Speaker 1: Are you? Are you right for the picking my robes
17:44
Speaker 1: in my bank? That's not true because you're not any
17:46
Speaker 1: of these other things like gullible. You don't think I am,
17:51
Speaker 1: of course not. Gullibility is a trait, you know. You
17:54
Speaker 1: gotta believe what's going on here pretty easily. Um. Usually
17:57
Speaker 1: you're unassertive. Uh, you're dissolute Asian with what's going on
18:01
Speaker 1: around you, and you're looking for some answers, right, you're
18:05
Speaker 1: a naive, that's and you're looking for some spiritual meaning
18:09
Speaker 1: in your life. And I'm utterly and totally dependent you are. Well,
18:16
Speaker 1: that's yeah, that's on the list at least UM. And
18:20
Speaker 1: there are actually places where people who fit these bills
18:25
Speaker 1: are going through a period in time in their life
18:28
Speaker 1: that's rough tend to hang out more than say the
18:30
Speaker 1: average bar or whatever. That would be a self help group,
18:34
Speaker 1: grief support group, UM, basically any group where people sit
18:39
Speaker 1: around in a circle and there's crying. That's a pretty
18:42
Speaker 1: good place you you want to be on the lookout
18:44
Speaker 1: for a cult recruiter there. Uh. And one of the
18:48
Speaker 1: you're you're probably not going to exit the conference room
18:52
Speaker 1: in the local community center after your grief support group
18:56
Speaker 1: and you know, see some guy in a road handing
18:58
Speaker 1: you a flower. It would be it will be much
19:01
Speaker 1: less obvious than that. It'll probably be someone who's a
19:04
Speaker 1: member of the group. Yeah, that's one of the ways.
19:07
Speaker 1: If you say I would never fall for that, think
19:09
Speaker 1: about if someone you knew personally UM invited you to
19:13
Speaker 1: a meeting where you were going to talk about better
19:16
Speaker 1: ways to help the community raise some money for a
19:18
Speaker 1: New Boys club, Right, and you happen to be at
19:21
Speaker 1: church and you're you know, one of the deacons vouched
19:24
Speaker 1: for the person who was talking. You wouldn't even question them, right,
19:27
Speaker 1: That's how it happened. Sometimes or if you were at
19:29
Speaker 1: a group support group and somebody said, hey, you know,
19:32
Speaker 1: this is peanuts compared to this other group support group.
19:35
Speaker 1: This this group of people have um all been through
19:39
Speaker 1: this tragedy and they are um really great at getting
19:43
Speaker 1: people past the stages of grief. So you should come
19:46
Speaker 1: and hang out. You should try this other one too. Um.
19:49
Speaker 1: There's a lot of deception associated with cult recruitment. As
19:51
Speaker 1: a matter of fact, it's pretty much the hallmark of it, right. Yeah.
19:54
Speaker 1: Initially they don't tell you what in the world you're
19:56
Speaker 1: in for because you probably wouldn't go, probably though, right. Uh.
20:02
Speaker 1: They isolate you from the get go with um their
20:06
Speaker 1: meetings usually the whole meetings at times where you may
20:10
Speaker 1: normally be with your family dinner, dinner time. They might
20:14
Speaker 1: hold it at a place like a retreat, get you
20:16
Speaker 1: away for the weekend, so you're hearing nothing but the
20:19
Speaker 1: cults ideas and views for a weekend, which makes it
20:22
Speaker 1: seem during that forty eight hours a lot less weird. Yeah,
20:25
Speaker 1: and you've got no feedback, You've got no feedback from
20:28
Speaker 1: the real world. Yes, because once you go back out
20:31
Speaker 1: in there and you haven't fully joined up, so you're
20:33
Speaker 1: still going to and from your house to these meetings,
20:35
Speaker 1: which are remember grief support meetings that have a lot
20:40
Speaker 1: to do with you know, religion that you haven't noticed before.
20:43
Speaker 1: But it's cool. Um, you're asked when you go back
20:46
Speaker 1: home not to talk about the group until you understand
20:49
Speaker 1: it more like you know, they don't. You don't want
20:52
Speaker 1: to hear anyone poop doing it just yet because you
20:54
Speaker 1: won't get it. Yeah, they won't get it, and so
20:56
Speaker 1: you don't. And like you said, your feedback structure is narrowed,
20:59
Speaker 1: so you don't have anything but self doubt. Your doubts
21:02
Speaker 1: that would normally be of the group are now doubts
21:05
Speaker 1: about yourself. Because why why why do you always have
21:09
Speaker 1: so such a tendency to just criticize everything. I mean,
21:13
Speaker 1: look at all these people, they're all happy and smiling,
21:15
Speaker 1: and they seem Yeah, why can't you just get on board?
21:19
Speaker 1: And then you're suddenly a lot more susceptible to joining up. Yeah. Well,
21:24
Speaker 1: and at that point that's when they can hit you
21:27
Speaker 1: with the proper mind control techniques brainwashing one O one.
21:33
Speaker 1: Should we go over it? Yeah, I'm sure there's plenty
21:35
Speaker 1: of people who are hearing this that didn't listen to brainwashing.
21:38
Speaker 1: But you know what, if you have it, and you
21:40
Speaker 1: should go back and listen to it twice three times
21:45
Speaker 1: in a place in the woods where we'll meet you.
21:48
Speaker 1: It's if you play it backwards, the location will be repealed.
21:54
Speaker 1: We're laughing. Nothing about this is funny except the things
21:57
Speaker 1: that we're saying. Um, thought reform, brainwashing, coercive persuasion is
22:04
Speaker 1: this is the key here. It is the systematic breakdown
22:07
Speaker 1: of your sense of self. And it's similar to what
22:10
Speaker 1: you do in uh, let's say Guantanamo Bay, maybe when
22:14
Speaker 1: you're interrogating a prisoner. Sure, similar techniques. You could also
22:18
Speaker 1: make a pretty strong case that it's similar to what
22:21
Speaker 1: happens to here in boot camp. And the article goes
22:24
Speaker 1: out of its way to defend boot camp by saying
22:27
Speaker 1: there's three huge differences. One, the military is accountable for
22:31
Speaker 1: its actions. Destructive cults tend not to be until, like,
22:34
Speaker 1: you know, the government's at your door. Um. Recruits who
22:39
Speaker 1: join up are making an informed decision. They know that
22:42
Speaker 1: they're going to be going in to be broken down
22:45
Speaker 1: and built up as a soldier. Yeah, I'm gonna look
22:47
Speaker 1: in dress like the other people and eat the same
22:49
Speaker 1: meals and all that kind of thing, and then um,
22:51
Speaker 1: there's a set period of time. Yeah, it's not for
22:54
Speaker 1: the rest of your life. Until you eat that apple sauce.
22:57
Speaker 1: It's fill the g I bill and you're done. So Chuck,
23:02
Speaker 1: let's talk about the techniques. Well, they're gonna deceive you,
23:09
Speaker 1: they're gonna trick you. Uh, they're gonna hide all signs
23:13
Speaker 1: of real paranoid They're gonna hide all signs of anything
23:17
Speaker 1: illegal or immoral at first. So you're buying into it,
23:21
Speaker 1: you know, all you're also not going to get the
23:23
Speaker 1: full picture of what the cults about. Like we said
23:25
Speaker 1: that grief support group is not really what it is.
23:29
Speaker 1: Sometimes they might even uh, you know, alter your consciousness
23:32
Speaker 1: a bit with like meditation or drugs or chanting. That
23:36
Speaker 1: kind of thing make you vulnerable. We already talked about isolation.
23:39
Speaker 1: That's one of the biggest parts of it. And it
23:41
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily have to be physical isolation, although it can be.
23:44
Speaker 1: Patty Hurst famously, when she was kidnapped by the Symbionese
23:48
Speaker 1: Liberal Liberation Army UM, she was apparently put into a
23:53
Speaker 1: closet for like weeks, and she was berated and yelled
23:58
Speaker 1: at and like her, her families capitalist trappings were um criticized,
24:04
Speaker 1: and she came out like, let's go rob a bank. Well,
24:07
Speaker 1: I wondered, I bet the late sixties and seventies people
24:10
Speaker 1: we're probably I mean that's when Jonestown, Yeah, the s. L. A.
24:14
Speaker 1: Manson family, the Moonies were huge then. They're still around,
24:18
Speaker 1: but there they were really big in the seventies. Um,
24:22
Speaker 1: it makes you wonder, I don't. I don't think we
24:25
Speaker 1: have any idea yet about what part of that period
24:29
Speaker 1: of history made it so readily available for cults to
24:34
Speaker 1: pop up, because it happened in the nineteenth century too.
24:36
Speaker 1: There are a lot of cults, um that came about
24:39
Speaker 1: for some reasons out of the blue. I wonder what
24:41
Speaker 1: it was. But the Internet helps nowadays just access to information, right,
24:47
Speaker 1: But I can think about it, like, you don't think
24:49
Speaker 1: of cults being like pervasive these days like they were
24:52
Speaker 1: in the seventies. Dud, Yeah, no, no, not at all.
24:54
Speaker 1: So I mean, like, what was it about the late
24:56
Speaker 1: sixties and the throughout the seventies that made them so now?
25:00
Speaker 1: I meant the lack of internet back then, to the
25:02
Speaker 1: lack of information, there were way more in the dark
25:05
Speaker 1: about things and and of course, in Manson's case, he
25:08
Speaker 1: had a bunch of you know, acid head hippies that like, yeah, man,
25:12
Speaker 1: it's pretty cool. You're into the Beatles, pot pac Man
25:15
Speaker 1: feverhead and yeah that's true. So isolation, like we said,
25:19
Speaker 1: is huge. It's one of the biggest hallmarks of thought
25:22
Speaker 1: reform because when you don't have anyone around you except
25:26
Speaker 1: for people that are doing the same thing you're doing,
25:27
Speaker 1: it seems completely normal. Um. There's also a complete and
25:33
Speaker 1: utter dependency that's created in the member, right, Yeah, that's
25:38
Speaker 1: the big part. Two. Um, if you can basically, if
25:43
Speaker 1: you can get somebody inspired two idolize the leader, then
25:50
Speaker 1: the leader's message that hey, you belong to this group
25:54
Speaker 1: and and here's what we do is paramount, right. Yeah.
25:58
Speaker 1: It creates a sense of this pendency, especially when the
26:01
Speaker 1: leader says, by the way, this group is your family. Now,
26:04
Speaker 1: don't talk to anybody else. You don't need to interact
26:07
Speaker 1: with the outside world. We grow our own food here,
26:09
Speaker 1: or we do our own things, we educate our own children. Um.
26:14
Speaker 1: They they cult becomes your life, and everybody needs a life.
26:19
Speaker 1: And especially if you're already predisposed to a real sense
26:22
Speaker 1: of belonging or in need for a sense of belonging.
26:25
Speaker 1: You're gonna buy into this a lot more easily, and
26:27
Speaker 1: this dependency will be induced even more readily. Yeah. Well,
26:32
Speaker 1: and what they do is they hit you with the
26:33
Speaker 1: one two punch. They show you lots of love, but
26:36
Speaker 1: they also offer lots of guilt and shame. If you
26:41
Speaker 1: are dancing around talking to your family or things like that,
26:44
Speaker 1: they shame you. They guilt you. And then when you say,
26:46
Speaker 1: do you know what you're right? Uh, it's about the leader,
26:49
Speaker 1: then they reap the love back onto your head and
26:53
Speaker 1: you know you're like, wow, these people, this is where
26:55
Speaker 1: it's at. They really really care about me. Right, Because again,
26:58
Speaker 1: if you have a need to belong and all of
27:00
Speaker 1: a sudden, like the members of the group are turning
27:02
Speaker 1: their back on you're not really talking to you're just
27:04
Speaker 1: kind of treating you coolly. That's going to have an
27:07
Speaker 1: enormous impact on your psyche. And you're going to go
27:10
Speaker 1: ahead and abandon any doubts or whatever it was that
27:12
Speaker 1: made them turn their backs on you so you can
27:15
Speaker 1: get their approval again and be loved. Yeah, you're striving
27:18
Speaker 1: for acceptance. Basically, that's pretty deep. Dependence huge. The other
27:22
Speaker 1: thing is that the time clock is very controlled. It's
27:25
Speaker 1: not like, oh, the branch Davidians just live in this
27:28
Speaker 1: compound and you just wake up every day and kind
27:30
Speaker 1: of do what you want. It's breakfast, is it from
27:32
Speaker 1: eight to eight thirty? Bible study is from nine thirty.
27:36
Speaker 1: You have free time for thirty minutes, then we have lunch.
27:38
Speaker 1: Then you know, every minute is accounted for, very very structured.
27:42
Speaker 1: Even during free time you're still like talking about the
27:45
Speaker 1: leader's teachings something like that. And it's not like did
27:49
Speaker 1: you watch American Idol last night? Right? The meals are
27:52
Speaker 1: all you know? Ready, you don't have a lot of
27:55
Speaker 1: people disappeals to a lot of people because it's the
27:58
Speaker 1: decision making is taken away from you and you're all
28:00
Speaker 1: of a sudden leading a very peaceful lifestyle. I don't
28:06
Speaker 1: have to think about anything. It takes the guesswork out
28:08
Speaker 1: of living. Yeah, a lot of people are into that.
28:10
Speaker 1: Some are yeah, um, and they make really good cult members.
28:14
Speaker 1: It turns out, I guess they're actually at the very
28:17
Speaker 1: least the least damaged of the cult members that are
28:20
Speaker 1: um damaged by cults. Right right, Um, Chuck, there's also
28:24
Speaker 1: a sense of dread. Right. Yeah. One more thing I
28:27
Speaker 1: want to mention though, and this is interesting to me,
28:30
Speaker 1: is that if you have a talent, a special talent
28:32
Speaker 1: that you're good at, they're gonna devalue that and strip
28:35
Speaker 1: it away. They're gonna take your guitar at the door.
28:38
Speaker 1: And basically what made you special before the outside world
28:41
Speaker 1: is no longer applicable because you're you're you live for
28:45
Speaker 1: the leader. That there's something unusual about Heaven's Gate in
28:50
Speaker 1: the dependency part where all members dressed exactly like gender
28:55
Speaker 1: was removed, like everyone was UM supposed to be basically
29:00
Speaker 1: a sexual and genderless UM. There were of course the
29:03
Speaker 1: famous like black nikes that everybody wore, but they very
29:06
Speaker 1: much interacted with the outside world. They had that higher
29:09
Speaker 1: source web service UM, and they dealt with clients, and
29:13
Speaker 1: you know, apparently their clients were like these were straight shooters.
29:16
Speaker 1: They were weird, obviously, but they were not like bad people.
29:20
Speaker 1: I'm sure Apple White and a business meeting seems like
29:22
Speaker 1: a real affable guide to work, right, He's very pleasant,
29:26
Speaker 1: but you look at those eyes, man. So there was
29:28
Speaker 1: the level of control where like if you had a
29:31
Speaker 1: meeting with the higher source people. They were all dressed
29:34
Speaker 1: exactly alike and you couldn't really tell who is the
29:37
Speaker 1: dude and who is the chick, right and um, but
29:40
Speaker 1: at the same time you were in a meeting with
29:42
Speaker 1: the higher source people. That's very daring of of a
29:46
Speaker 1: leader to allow that level of access to the outside world,
29:50
Speaker 1: or at the very least, that's a lot of trust
29:52
Speaker 1: to show in your followers. It's pretty unusual. Yeah, alright,
29:55
Speaker 1: So dread is where I interrupted you, I think, Um,
29:59
Speaker 1: so I mean about dread well, Dread is a very
30:03
Speaker 1: very unusual sensation, and that you can experience dread on
30:10
Speaker 1: some sort of background level at all times. You can
30:13
Speaker 1: care even when you're happy, you can still have a
30:16
Speaker 1: sense of dread because dread basically is the idea that
30:20
Speaker 1: you have no idea what's coming around the corner, and
30:24
Speaker 1: it's really possible that it's going to be bad. As
30:26
Speaker 1: a matter of fact, it's likely that what happens to
30:28
Speaker 1: you sooner than later, it's going to be very bad, right, right,
30:31
Speaker 1: And is is the idea that the sense of dread
30:33
Speaker 1: is in the outside world, and that's why you don't
30:35
Speaker 1: want to go out there. Yes, Um, Either that or
30:38
Speaker 1: there's also a constant dread or anxiety that you're going
30:41
Speaker 1: to offend the leader, upset the group, and you're constantly
30:45
Speaker 1: striving to maintain great good relations with your with the group,
30:49
Speaker 1: in yourself and among the group. Um. But yeah, a
30:52
Speaker 1: sense of dread is just it's very unusual like it.
30:55
Speaker 1: It can haunt you. And that is apparently one of
30:58
Speaker 1: the hallmarks of a I don't know if it's uh
31:02
Speaker 1: purposefully instilled, but apparently it's at the very least a
31:06
Speaker 1: huge byproduct among most people, especially and you talked about
31:10
Speaker 1: ones who are just fine living the cult life. They
31:13
Speaker 1: couldn't possibly understand this. But if you're if you intercult
31:18
Speaker 1: in a in a stressful period in your life, and
31:22
Speaker 1: you eventually come out of that stressful period, but now
31:24
Speaker 1: you're in the cult, your former personality and your new
31:28
Speaker 1: personality are going to conflict. That creates a sense of dread.
31:32
Speaker 1: And that's why destructive cults can be so harmful to people,
31:36
Speaker 1: not not just mentally, but physically as well, because you're
31:39
Speaker 1: not supposed to walk around stressed out all the time.
31:42
Speaker 1: It's bad for you to the old U. That's the
31:45
Speaker 1: old U in the outside world, but you're not supposed
31:47
Speaker 1: to be thinking about the old you, and you, by God,
31:50
Speaker 1: you better not talk about the old Yu or wonder
31:52
Speaker 1: what's going on in the outside world. So you're constantly
31:55
Speaker 1: pressing down natural thoughts in order to conform to the group,
32:00
Speaker 1: and you're just you're there's just psychological havoc being wreaked
32:05
Speaker 1: on you constantly. You don't know which way is up.
32:08
Speaker 1: Confusion creates paralyzation a lot of times for these people
32:12
Speaker 1: because some of them, it said later in the article
32:14
Speaker 1: that I said, some people work for years to get
32:17
Speaker 1: out of a cult, but they're just paralyzed with fear, uncertainty, confusion, dread,
32:24
Speaker 1: and I think also probably um, the cult members already
32:27
Speaker 1: were predisposed of this kind of personality, like don't like
32:31
Speaker 1: to make choices, like even small ones. It's not very confident,
32:35
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. But I would imagine like those
32:38
Speaker 1: problems are just exacerbated even further in a cult. I
32:42
Speaker 1: don't think so. So, Josh, let's say you're in a cult. Uh,
32:47
Speaker 1: not all cults are the same, but there are a
32:49
Speaker 1: few commonalities for sure. Um, you talk to people that
32:53
Speaker 1: you know. There's always interviews with people that get out
32:55
Speaker 1: of cults, because you get a lot of insight there obviously,
32:57
Speaker 1: and plus they're just sexy press. It's very sexy press. Uh.
33:03
Speaker 1: They usually talk about anxiety, fear. Um did I not
33:08
Speaker 1: say that, being cut off from their family and friends,
33:11
Speaker 1: and basically a ceasing of psychological growth. Yeah, no questioning,
33:17
Speaker 1: no no thinking on your own at all. And Uh,
33:20
Speaker 1: they don't realize this, of course until they get out.
33:23
Speaker 1: But it's well, it's not too late because they're out,
33:25
Speaker 1: but it's too late for Heaven's Skate. Although I made
33:28
Speaker 1: the point before when we talked about Heaven's Kate. They're
33:30
Speaker 1: the only ones who know whether or not managed to
33:32
Speaker 1: escape these vests. They may be partying on the other
33:34
Speaker 1: side of the Hilbop. You never know. Uh, let's talk
33:39
Speaker 1: about money. We we mentioned that Heaven's Gate were at
33:42
Speaker 1: a successful web design business. Uh, some of them because
33:45
Speaker 1: they need money. You can't operate I mean it's sort
33:47
Speaker 1: of like a business. You can't operate a cult without
33:50
Speaker 1: dough or t Uh. Some of them are fraudulent tax evaders,
33:59
Speaker 1: stuff like that. And I think they were just cheap
34:02
Speaker 1: and hippies and things and and but for the most part,
34:06
Speaker 1: when you enter cult, you're basically surrendering your finances. And
34:10
Speaker 1: if you're a wealthy person, you're a very desirable cult member. Yeah.
34:14
Speaker 1: Sometimes you have to donate a large sum or all
34:16
Speaker 1: of it and you don't need it anyways, Just go
34:18
Speaker 1: ahead and sell your house and come live with us.
34:20
Speaker 1: But earthly desires, you can lead those behind, exactly. So
34:24
Speaker 1: that's to me, though, We'll take care of it, but exactly,
34:26
Speaker 1: I'm I'm the signatory on your account. Now. Um, I think, uh,
34:30
Speaker 1: that's probably the most common way that cults finance themselves
34:35
Speaker 1: is through the members, right. Yeah, So let's say the
34:39
Speaker 1: stress has gotten to you're like, you know, I kind
34:42
Speaker 1: of got over adolescence. I'm fifty four now and I
34:47
Speaker 1: just don't feel right. I haven't felt right for thirty
34:50
Speaker 1: two years. Um, I think I'm gonna leave this cult.
34:55
Speaker 1: There's a door, buddy, Okay. So is it that easy?
34:58
Speaker 1: Because as you saw in the movie ben Terian episode
35:00
Speaker 1: of the Simpsons, there was that whole like doctor who
35:03
Speaker 1: Bubble mole Man was like, you know, setting the dogs
35:07
Speaker 1: loose on Mars. It was just it was very dangerous,
35:09
Speaker 1: like anybody can leave at any time, but you really can't.
35:13
Speaker 1: So can you? Well, you can sometimes sometimes there are
35:17
Speaker 1: no locked doors and barbed wire, and they will just
35:23
Speaker 1: shame you and say, you know what, if you walk
35:25
Speaker 1: out that door, you're never coming back in. You're cut
35:29
Speaker 1: off from from your family, your new family, so they
35:32
Speaker 1: will shame you into staying longer. But the doors open.
35:36
Speaker 1: In the case of the Davidians, and I had never
35:39
Speaker 1: heard of them, they proceeded the branch Davidians evidently, and
35:42
Speaker 1: they had a leader that said the end of the
35:45
Speaker 1: world is coming on this date. And that date came
35:48
Speaker 1: and went, and a few people were like, I think
35:50
Speaker 1: I'm out of here. They said no, no, no, it's
35:52
Speaker 1: a new date. And then that date came and went,
35:55
Speaker 1: and then more people were like, what kind of stinks
35:59
Speaker 1: that dude die? I think? And his wife took over
36:03
Speaker 1: and said, I have a new date. That date came
36:06
Speaker 1: and went, and by that time there were just a
36:08
Speaker 1: handful people and they're like, we're out of here. Yeah,
36:11
Speaker 1: whatever knows about it. So you can leave in the
36:13
Speaker 1: case of the Davidians. Um. But sometimes there are locked
36:18
Speaker 1: doors and they don't let you out. Sometimes they are
36:22
Speaker 1: also bullets too. In the case of Jonestown in Guiana,
36:26
Speaker 1: a fascinating part of that story that a lot of
36:28
Speaker 1: people don't know about. Yeah, um shootout. What was his name,
36:31
Speaker 1: Congressman Leo Ryan. I think he came and led a
36:35
Speaker 1: delegation to Jonestown to find out what was going on,
36:38
Speaker 1: because some of his constituents were like, uh, our family
36:41
Speaker 1: just moved to Guiana with the People's Temple and a
36:44
Speaker 1: guy named Jim Jones, We're kind of concerned. So he
36:48
Speaker 1: went to Guiana and apparently met with the the People's
36:52
Speaker 1: Temple members and sixteen of them were like, I'm coming
36:55
Speaker 1: back to California with you, and the some other members
36:59
Speaker 1: of People's Temple followed them to the airport and opened
37:03
Speaker 1: fire on them and wounded eleven and killed Congressman Ryan,
37:08
Speaker 1: killed three reporters, one member, and Congressman Ryan. I thought
37:12
Speaker 1: it was just Congressman Ryan. Really yeah, I killed five
37:15
Speaker 1: people total. And that's pretty much what triggered. Jim Jones
37:19
Speaker 1: was like, it's it's hitting the fan. Yeah, it's time
37:23
Speaker 1: for let's get the flavor aid ready, Yes, And I'm
37:26
Speaker 1: glad you said that we got killed in the brainwashing
37:29
Speaker 1: we did. I will never ever forget it. Um kool aid.
37:34
Speaker 1: It was not what they drank apparently flavor Aid is
37:37
Speaker 1: a British knockoff and kool Aid, and they drank grape
37:41
Speaker 1: flavor Aid and filled it with valium um finn again
37:48
Speaker 1: and cyanide, and that did the trick. Yeah, you know,
37:51
Speaker 1: I'll tell the audience here what I told everybody. The
37:54
Speaker 1: emailed and said it's flavor aid. It's like, you know what, dude,
37:58
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what it really was. The Rusian is
38:00
Speaker 1: don't drink the kool Aid, and that's just it's revisionist history.
38:04
Speaker 1: But no one says don't drink the flavor Aid. Do
38:05
Speaker 1: you want the Brits to get all the all the
38:07
Speaker 1: attention say don't drink the flavor aid sometime in public
38:11
Speaker 1: and to see what someone says, do you mean kool aid?
38:14
Speaker 1: Tell them that they're the high man on the totem pole.
38:17
Speaker 1: A boy, you just told them, Chuck, we're growing bitter
38:23
Speaker 1: in our old age. So uh, all right, let's say
38:28
Speaker 1: it's not as easy to leave as just getting up
38:31
Speaker 1: and walking out. I would say it's probably somewhere between
38:34
Speaker 1: jonestown and um just getting up and walking out. In
38:38
Speaker 1: certain cases, there's something called d programming that you can
38:42
Speaker 1: pay a lot of money to a service to go
38:45
Speaker 1: in and kidnap your son or daughter. What you were
38:48
Speaker 1: doing is wrong, the love your family. In the middle
38:51
Speaker 1: of the night, they will drag them out of this,
38:53
Speaker 1: uh wherever they are compound, Like it's a kidnapping like kidnap,
38:58
Speaker 1: and there's been lawsuits because wonders it doesn't happen a
39:00
Speaker 1: whole lot anymore. It's like a repo man but for people. Yeah,
39:04
Speaker 1: they're repelling your your son or daughter. Right, it's not
39:06
Speaker 1: always a son or daughter. I guess it could be
39:09
Speaker 1: a friend or relative otherwise, you know, not not a kid.
39:14
Speaker 1: But you typically think of like rich dad is sending
39:17
Speaker 1: in someone to kidnap his little teenaged daughter. So, uh,
39:22
Speaker 1: they will do that. They will drag them out, and
39:23
Speaker 1: then they will begin a process of de programming, basically
39:27
Speaker 1: by using ethical psychological techniques to combat the unethical ones
39:32
Speaker 1: that were used. Well, what they what they do often
39:35
Speaker 1: is give the the deep program e a crash course
39:39
Speaker 1: in thought reform. Yeah, like this is what's happened to you, right,
39:42
Speaker 1: and or this is how cults brainwatch people. Does any
39:46
Speaker 1: of this sound familiar? Do you remember this like years
39:49
Speaker 1: ago when you first went in and that's supposed to
39:51
Speaker 1: kind of start to unlock this um, this desire to
39:56
Speaker 1: not think any longer, and then that's followed by a
39:59
Speaker 1: critical thing. King questions, right, yeah, you want it to do.
40:02
Speaker 1: You want to encourage them to be independent with their
40:04
Speaker 1: thinking and praise them a lot when they start having
40:07
Speaker 1: their own original thoughts because they haven't had them for
40:09
Speaker 1: so long, and then maybe even dance out the Little
40:13
Speaker 1: Teddy Bear or from their bedroom, say look at this.
40:18
Speaker 1: You remember a little bun Bun that you grew up
40:20
Speaker 1: with and in Sheboygan, wouldn't you like to go back
40:24
Speaker 1: with bun Bun? So yeah, they'll parade out of some
40:30
Speaker 1: things from your past. Maybe that might trigger thoughts of
40:33
Speaker 1: your former life that you might have loved even at
40:37
Speaker 1: one point, and then all of a sudden you're like,
40:39
Speaker 1: bing bang boom, I'm not a cult member anymore. Well,
40:43
Speaker 1: that's deep programming. That's the hardcore version. Well yeah, and
40:47
Speaker 1: at the end of it you're like, Okay, I'm good.
40:49
Speaker 1: But there's also exit counseling, which is a little more common.
40:51
Speaker 1: It's pretty much deep programming without the kidnapping. It's I
40:55
Speaker 1: would imagine it's much more common these days, but it's
40:58
Speaker 1: gotta be way harder because you have to make contact
41:01
Speaker 1: with the person and if they're isolated, then then to
41:03
Speaker 1: convince them to come out, and you, I would imagine,
41:06
Speaker 1: have very brief periods of time where you have the
41:09
Speaker 1: opportunity to talk to them alone and have even a
41:12
Speaker 1: chance to to get them to come out on their own.
41:16
Speaker 1: Then you kidnap, Well, you made a joke a second ago,
41:20
Speaker 1: Josh when you said bing bang boom, they're out. We're
41:22
Speaker 1: all good. Yeah, that's not the case. It's just like
41:24
Speaker 1: any traumatic experience. Uh. Many times they will suffer psychologically
41:29
Speaker 1: for years with depression, anxiety, paranoia, guilt rage. One psychological psychologicist,
41:39
Speaker 1: it's a new line psychologist, said that he calls it
41:44
Speaker 1: floating when you get out. Yeah, kind of alternating between
41:47
Speaker 1: the former mind and the current mind. And it's very
41:49
Speaker 1: in certain times, sad, very sad. It said. I imagine
41:54
Speaker 1: spending ten years in a cult and then ultimately coming
41:57
Speaker 1: to feel like you just wasted and lost years of
42:00
Speaker 1: your life because if that, um, what was the psychological
42:06
Speaker 1: where you just stop growing psychologically like that's that means
42:11
Speaker 1: that you just spent ten years like not doing anything
42:14
Speaker 1: and wasted years that's terrible it is. And then all
42:18
Speaker 1: the years after who who, however long it takes afterwards,
42:22
Speaker 1: if ever, if ever. Um, So as you can see,
42:26
Speaker 1: cults are frequently destructive, I I want to say, and
42:29
Speaker 1: I'm sure you'll agree with me. Not all cults are destructive.
42:32
Speaker 1: You said before, Like, even in a destructive cult, some
42:35
Speaker 1: people are like, this is exactly what I need. Tell
42:38
Speaker 1: me what shoes to wear, tell me exactly how much
42:40
Speaker 1: gruel to eat every days? Exactly? Um, I want to
42:44
Speaker 1: go pick some Lima beans, right. But um, for the
42:47
Speaker 1: most part, you, I guess you can understand why a
42:51
Speaker 1: cult destructive cauld is called destructive cult. Now even if
42:54
Speaker 1: they don't end in the mass suicide of nine members.
42:58
Speaker 1: You know, Um, you want to talk about some notable
43:02
Speaker 1: cult incidents. So we hit Heaven's Gate. We fit well.
43:07
Speaker 1: The Branch Davidians, as most people know, ended in a
43:10
Speaker 1: hail of gunfire and fire fire. They remember the image
43:13
Speaker 1: of that tank to shooting flames out of it. Yeah, man,
43:16
Speaker 1: we should do a podcast sometime. Ruby Ridge and the
43:21
Speaker 1: Branch Davidians, you got it, two very dark spots of
43:25
Speaker 1: the Clinton administration, And there was a common thread. An
43:29
Speaker 1: FBI guy was involved in both of them that apparently
43:32
Speaker 1: was a little trigger happy. Really yeah, I saw a
43:34
Speaker 1: great documentary on it. Well, let's do it all right,
43:36
Speaker 1: let's do it right now. Okay, Hey, did I mention
43:39
Speaker 1: you the guy the Russian psycho ecopsychologist who was called
43:46
Speaker 1: out to Waco because he had some um sound recording.
43:51
Speaker 1: I told you about him, right, And that was supposed
43:53
Speaker 1: to drive them out. Yeah, but if it went wrong,
43:55
Speaker 1: they the FBI asked what would happen if the if
43:57
Speaker 1: it went wrong, he said, they'll end up slitting each
44:00
Speaker 1: other's throats. He was at Waco too. Did they do it?
44:03
Speaker 1: They used it? No once. He told him that go
44:05
Speaker 1: back to Russia. Yeah. Yeah. What else we talked about
44:11
Speaker 1: s l A Manson family. Did we leave anything back?
44:14
Speaker 1: Big out? We did? Man. We didn't talk about the
44:16
Speaker 1: Order of the Solar Temple. I don't know much about them.
44:19
Speaker 1: School me the Order of the Solar Temple. You've heard
44:21
Speaker 1: the Knights Templar, so they were like a modern sect
44:25
Speaker 1: based on them. In Switzerland and in Canada and UM.
44:30
Speaker 1: I think fifty three members between the two countries were
44:33
Speaker 1: found dead. UM set on fire like six hundred and
44:37
Speaker 1: eighty years to the day after the last templar was
44:42
Speaker 1: burned at the steak Um was the sun that the
44:45
Speaker 1: sun set him on fire? It wasn't. They thought it
44:47
Speaker 1: was a mass suicide. But when autopsies were done, they
44:50
Speaker 1: found out that some of the people had like up
44:52
Speaker 1: to eight bullet holes in their head, Some died from suffocation,
44:56
Speaker 1: some died from overdose on narcotics, So as a murder suicide.
45:02
Speaker 1: Some were suicides. But murder suicide burning, that's a big tragedy. Um.
45:09
Speaker 1: There's also uh, the Ralians have you heard of them?
45:13
Speaker 1: They are still around their UFO coult their doomsday cult.
45:18
Speaker 1: But they're not UM destructive, like they're never going to
45:22
Speaker 1: kill themselves. It's just not in their doctrine. But they
45:26
Speaker 1: follow a well, they follow a UM leader named Rail
45:31
Speaker 1: who is actually a French race car driver, and almost
45:35
Speaker 1: all of them Ralians are like beautiful Frenchies, French and
45:41
Speaker 1: French Canadian people. They have an outpost pretty close by
45:45
Speaker 1: in Alabama. They have an amusement parker a theme park,
45:48
Speaker 1: a UFO theme park, and what their whole thing is,
45:51
Speaker 1: we're there. The day is coming very soon where we
45:55
Speaker 1: are going to be visited by these other life forms
45:59
Speaker 1: who are benevolent UM, and we need to build an
46:03
Speaker 1: international space station to greet them. It has to have
46:06
Speaker 1: a UM like a dining table this long they have
46:10
Speaker 1: like specs like the indoor swimming pool has to be
46:13
Speaker 1: this big up in space. Right, And they're having a
46:16
Speaker 1: lot of trouble getting UM funding for this. You can imagine.
46:20
Speaker 1: But they're kind of like a good time cult, not cult,
46:23
Speaker 1: attractive French people and they made headlines. You've heard of
46:28
Speaker 1: them for this. They made headlines years ago because um
46:31
Speaker 1: they claimed to be the first to clone a human
46:35
Speaker 1: baby for a Kentucky senator. Do you remember that? And
46:40
Speaker 1: it turned out it was a fraud really but no,
46:46
Speaker 1: I mean remember everybody's like, holy cow. They the language
46:49
Speaker 1: they used in the press release made people think like,
46:51
Speaker 1: oh wow, this is really something. But well, Josh, let's
46:55
Speaker 1: just finished. Was saying that. We've said he a lot.
46:57
Speaker 1: In regards to cult leaders, most of them have been men,
47:01
Speaker 1: but oddly enough, many many years ago there were some
47:05
Speaker 1: female cult leaders. I heard. Joanna Southcott was nineteenth century
47:13
Speaker 1: British Christian sect. The south Candians were who followed her,
47:18
Speaker 1: and she had a vision that she was going to
47:20
Speaker 1: give birth to a Messiah. She died in eighteen fourteen
47:22
Speaker 1: and they waited for days by her dead body for
47:25
Speaker 1: her to give birth. Finally she started stinking and they said,
47:29
Speaker 1: let's cut her open, see what's in there. There was
47:31
Speaker 1: nothing in there, so they said, so the kid must
47:34
Speaker 1: have been born in heaven spiritually. And some people believe
47:38
Speaker 1: that Shiloh, who was to be this child, is actually
47:43
Speaker 1: Prince William. Really I always expect that there's a little
47:47
Speaker 1: something extra to him. There was someone named Annelie from Manchester.
47:51
Speaker 1: She was a female cult leader. She was a Quaker
47:54
Speaker 1: who rejected sex and started the Shakers, not the furniture movement,
48:00
Speaker 1: but some people don't say they were a cult, but no,
48:03
Speaker 1: the Shakers are responsible for the furniture as well. Okay, yeah,
48:07
Speaker 1: well they did a heck of a job then, yeah,
48:09
Speaker 1: I love Shaker stuff. The Shakers, they were an offshoot
48:12
Speaker 1: of Quakers. Their big problem is, and it's it's mentioned
48:15
Speaker 1: here that, um, they looked down on sex, like it's
48:19
Speaker 1: pretty much prohibited. Ye how do you keep a cult going,
48:23
Speaker 1: or any group going if you're not repopulated. So they're
48:27
Speaker 1: the Shakers are on very shaky ground as it were,
48:30
Speaker 1: as far as membership goes because they can't. Yeah, they
48:32
Speaker 1: don't have to recruit outside member. There's very very few
48:34
Speaker 1: of them now. And then Margaret Peter was in Germany
48:37
Speaker 1: in eighteen twenty three and her cult was sort of
48:41
Speaker 1: just her extended family, but they were all kind of nuts,
48:45
Speaker 1: and she was convinced the devil lived in her loft
48:48
Speaker 1: and the devil needed a sacrifice. One of her sisters
48:51
Speaker 1: immediately hit herself on the head with a mallet and
48:54
Speaker 1: then the rest of the family beat her to death.
48:57
Speaker 1: The devil was still there, so Margaret said, hey, why
49:00
Speaker 1: don't you crucify me and I'll be resurrected. So they
49:04
Speaker 1: said sure, Well, they crucified her, beat her to death,
49:07
Speaker 1: and she was not resurrected. In three days, Josh and
49:12
Speaker 1: the police came and arrested them. All that's exactly right,
49:14
Speaker 1: and I think that was the end of that cult. Ladies,
49:17
Speaker 1: we always like to give you your due. Yeah, that
49:19
Speaker 1: was Chuck. By the way, Chuck was like, what about
49:21
Speaker 1: female cult members and did some research, So way to go,
49:24
Speaker 1: chuckers Um. There are some excellent stuff in the at
49:27
Speaker 1: the end of the article, some actually great information in
49:29
Speaker 1: places you can go if you're if you have been
49:33
Speaker 1: an occult, you are an occult, or you have loved
49:35
Speaker 1: ones in a cult, and you should go visit some
49:38
Speaker 1: of those sites. One is called Refocus, and I won't
49:42
Speaker 1: read them all, but there there's some places you can
49:44
Speaker 1: go to get help. Kidnaped that kid uh. If you
49:49
Speaker 1: want to learn more about cults, um, you can type
49:52
Speaker 1: that in. There's a very comprehensive article on the site.
49:55
Speaker 1: Just type in se U l t S in the
49:58
Speaker 1: handy search bar. How stuff works dot tom. And since
50:01
Speaker 1: I said that, it means it's time for what listener mail?
50:03
Speaker 1: Right as always as ever? Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa what?
50:10
Speaker 1: Quick announcement. Okay, we are coming to south By Southwest, Josh,
50:14
Speaker 1: I know, and uh yeah, in the fourth largest state
50:18
Speaker 1: of the Union. That's right, Austin, Texas. That's not right,
50:21
Speaker 1: but we're we're gonna do a live podcast and to attend,
50:24
Speaker 1: you need an interactive badge. It's gonna be the DRISTC
50:26
Speaker 1: Call Hotel at eleven am on Monday, March fourteen. Yeah,
50:30
Speaker 1: and if you don't know how to spell drist call
50:32
Speaker 1: d r I s k I l L. Yeah, it
50:34
Speaker 1: looks better with an E, but it's like Old West
50:36
Speaker 1: spelling of dristical. So we encourage you, if you have
50:39
Speaker 1: a badge, to come on down and see us, and
50:41
Speaker 1: they'll be a great podcast or at least a mediocre podcast, right,
50:45
Speaker 1: followed by some Q and A. And really, you're not
50:47
Speaker 1: gonna be out any money. You might be out an
50:49
Speaker 1: hour of your life. That's about it. Yeah, yeah, And
50:53
Speaker 1: there may be sandwiches we're not gonna be providing, but
50:55
Speaker 1: there may be somebody with an extra sandwich there, so
50:57
Speaker 1: that alone should get you down there. If you're at
51:00
Speaker 1: south By Southwest, come check us out right, Okay, Okay,
51:03
Speaker 1: back to it. This is from Tim. Tim has a
51:05
Speaker 1: neat little thing that is not the cult as far
51:07
Speaker 1: as I know. Um My, guys, I'm obsessed with making
51:10
Speaker 1: things and giving them to people. I draw daily, though
51:13
Speaker 1: I think making art is kind of pointless in a
51:15
Speaker 1: day and age when people are hungry and living on
51:17
Speaker 1: the streets. Feeding people is more important than making paintings,
51:20
Speaker 1: amongst many other things. But I still find myself wanting
51:24
Speaker 1: to draw, so I'm constantly trying to make excuses for
51:26
Speaker 1: why it is socially acceptable to make art instead of
51:29
Speaker 1: helping people but that is another tale. I decided to
51:31
Speaker 1: start a little project in which I would encourage people
51:34
Speaker 1: to give their sketch books away to other people who
51:37
Speaker 1: they don't know, with the incentive being that I would
51:40
Speaker 1: make them a drawing and send it to them. Unfortunately,
51:43
Speaker 1: despite making flyers and internet distribution, my heart got crushed
51:47
Speaker 1: when not a single person responded. He didn't get need
51:50
Speaker 1: a feedback on this, so we're gonna help him out.
51:53
Speaker 1: I want to create a different kind of currency, but
51:55
Speaker 1: it seems like no one cares. Everyone just wants money
51:58
Speaker 1: and it really stinks. So he started this thing, Tim did.
52:03
Speaker 1: It's uh www dot send me anything dot WordPress dot com.
52:09
Speaker 1: And I think the deal is if you say I
52:12
Speaker 1: am an artist and I will give away my sketch
52:14
Speaker 1: book to a stranger, then Tim will send you an
52:18
Speaker 1: original drawing that's very awesome, all for free. So he's
52:22
Speaker 1: doing a kind of a cool thing here. And he
52:24
Speaker 1: says the pen is mightier than the sword and the
52:26
Speaker 1: tongue is mightier than the blade. Tim l So Tim,
52:30
Speaker 1: good luck at send me Anything dot WordPress dot com.
52:33
Speaker 1: I hope you get some people swap an art soon. Seriously,
52:37
Speaker 1: that is a great idea and we want to hear
52:39
Speaker 1: your good ideas for um projects that will help make
52:45
Speaker 1: humanity even slightly better. We definitely want to hear those ideas.
52:49
Speaker 1: Or if you were in a cult and got out,
52:50
Speaker 1: that's that's good stuff on even now. Okay, either one
52:53
Speaker 1: of those, or if your cult had a good idea
52:55
Speaker 1: to make humanity even better, we want to hear that too.
52:58
Speaker 1: If you're still in a cult, say hi, direct us
53:00
Speaker 1: big time too. Um. This is definitely an outsiders view
53:03
Speaker 1: because neither Chuck nor I have been in a could
53:04
Speaker 1: as far as we know. UM. So, if you are
53:07
Speaker 1: an ex cult member, if you have an idea for
53:10
Speaker 1: a project that will better humanity, or you're still in
53:13
Speaker 1: a cult and you want to correct us, uh, send
53:16
Speaker 1: us an email to Stuff podcast at how stuff works
53:20
Speaker 1: dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics.
53:28
Speaker 1: VI is it how stuff works dot com. To learn
53:30
Speaker 1: more about the podcast, click on the podcast icon in
53:32
Speaker 1: the upper right corner of our homepage. The How Stuff
53:35
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53:45
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