Latest / Connect Call / EP03 - Uncovering the Truth: Red Flags Within Residential Treatment with Nikki Soda

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EP03 - Uncovering the Truth: Red Flags Within Residential Treatment with Nikki Soda · Connect Call

0:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, you've reached the voicemail of Hannah Brett with Connect Call.
0:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Just leave a message and I'll get back to you soon as I can.
0:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks.
0:07
[SPEAKER_01]: One for more options.
0:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, Hannah.
0:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I just wanted to circle back like we had discussed about my son coming to your program in a week.
0:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm pretty much stuck right now.
0:17
[SPEAKER_00]: As I told you before, my son was at another program.
0:19
[SPEAKER_00]: He relapsed for a day.
0:21
[SPEAKER_00]: That program had recommended because he had relapsed that he needed to go into some sort of medical detox.
0:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I withdraw off all the substance he was on.
0:29
[SPEAKER_00]: confused on why I'm one day he would need to go to a medical debt detox, but they were adamant.
0:34
[SPEAKER_00]: We're now on date 10 at the Steetox and by the way he's been at the Steetox now three times.
0:39
[SPEAKER_00]: By two different facilities he was out.
0:40
[SPEAKER_00]: They both had recommended and they're kind of holding them there and adding meds and taking a meds and it's just kind of a mess.
0:47
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you can call me back and help guide me, that would be great.
0:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, this is Hannah Brad with Connect Call.
0:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I often say I do not have a clinical background, but I do have a PhD for picking up the phone for families
0:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that cheesy?
1:01
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a little, it's cheesy.
1:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying out a bunch of different timelines.
1:04
[SPEAKER_01]: So today, I like to start with a story that I feel that people can relate to, and also for the subject that we are talking about.
1:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And I am going to get into this, but the big subject today is going to be about ethics in residential treatment, or just in the treatment world that we work in.
1:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And I often, when I think about what is ethical, okay, and what is not, I think of the stories happened too many times unfortunately, where I used to, for many years, worked for an adolescent and young adult program.
1:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And I got a call one day from a family where we were set to admit a young adult who was coming from another state, from another detox.
1:45
[SPEAKER_01]: This was his like third treatment stay in a very short period of time in this area, but he kept relapsing and being sent to the same detox, which already might kind of what's the saying.
2:00
[SPEAKER_01]: My ears perked up.
2:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I let this dad tell me how, you know, his son was in the
2:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, not taking away the severity of the relapse, but he was, I think, out using for about a day, right?
2:21
[SPEAKER_01]: The substance, as he was using, should have kind of cleared out of a system in a few days, within maybe some detox assistance, but I didn't even think he needed the detox at the time, either.
2:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, we were going on date eight of him still being at this detox.
2:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And the dad said to me, I'm having a really, really, really tough time with this detox wanting to be cooperative with the new admission coming to your program.
2:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's typically when I jump in and I intervene and I will speak to the admissions director.
2:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I will speak to the clinical director.
2:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll speak to even the CEO or the,
2:56
[SPEAKER_01]: director of business development and kind of make that relationship and find out kind of what is going on in this individual?
3:01
[SPEAKER_01]: What is the set date for discharge?
3:03
[SPEAKER_01]: What medications?
3:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we already kind of checked a little bit and so when I called this admissions director right out the gate, I got very defensive attitude.
3:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Also got, um,
3:15
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, I was, again, I don't have a medical background.
3:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have a clinical background, but my clinical team who had assessed him and our doctors were looking at the meds, the detox had put him on.
3:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And in our opinion, a lot of them were not necessary.
3:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're going to talk about that, but sometimes, unfortunately, that will happen.
3:36
[SPEAKER_01]: So to keep that individual into treatment
3:42
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I was talking to this woman about when this young man, let's say his name is Michael, can come to treatment with us.
3:49
[SPEAKER_01]: She said, uh, well, I'm not sure about that.
3:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And she said, you know, I have this amazing relationship with Michael.
3:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Michael can even call me after hours.
3:58
[SPEAKER_01]: He has my cell phone.
4:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's not really comfortable with coming to your treatment center.
4:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Immediately I was like, Rupro, Rupro.
4:07
[SPEAKER_01]: This is like, this is in good.
4:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're going to talk about all the reasons why it isn't I then proceeded to kind of then grill her on his history of so tell me this so in the past few months he has gone from this facility back to you for detox for relapsing then to another facility in the area.
4:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Coinkie Dink he relapsed again and went back to you guys and it just seems like he's been on this kind of rodeo with you because I knew what was happening and I knew this was kind of some unethical stuff happening and I literally I kind of
4:43
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I knew it just smelled bad.
4:46
[SPEAKER_01]: It was just all bad.
4:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And my goal was to protect the family, protect the individual and get him to us safely.
4:54
[SPEAKER_01]: When I asked that we had a discharge date, she also let me know she didn't need the transport that we had individually hired from an independent provider.
5:04
[SPEAKER_01]: That's because her boyfriend does all the transports, meaning flying the client to the new facility.
5:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, ears popped up and when I asked for discharge date, et cetera, she was very resistant to the point where I pretty much had to let her know.
5:21
[SPEAKER_01]: This is what I think is suspect about all this situation and unless we can kind of coordinate a date that would work for the family and us, you know, I might have to take this a step higher and talk to somebody about what's happening here.
5:37
[SPEAKER_01]: tonight today is one of my dear friends and colleagues and someone I truly look up to in the industry for so many reasons.
5:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Nikki soda.
5:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And Nikki soda knows a lot about a lot about ethics.
5:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And so Nikki, after hearing that story, like, what do you think?
5:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, first I want to thank you for letting me come on the show to talk about something that I am extremely passionate about and that is so important for the general public and families to to understand and you talk about your You talk about your ears perking up and I call those red flags too and when you start to feel kind of uneasy like I'm not sure about this typically I want to encourage you to go with your gut.
6:22
[SPEAKER_02]: And so not that story that you just shared, there's a handful of examples there of red flags, not only slightly coming up, but like waving in front, in front of your face, that something is something is not right.
6:36
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think what the tricky part is, Hannah is that when you have families in distress that are going through situations like this, they're in a panic and they're not understanding fully what's going on.
6:47
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's why it's imperative that we have some more oversight and regulations and situations like this.
6:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And so as you said, there was, there was a handful of things that that are wrong with that story.
6:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm curious what outcome was.
7:01
[SPEAKER_01]: The outcome is we finally got them to come to us.
7:04
[SPEAKER_01]: The outcome was, I did write a letter to a CEO, saying, you know, it was something in the industry.
7:11
[SPEAKER_01]: This is what I observed.
7:13
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm happy to have a conversation with you, but from everything I saw and how exactly the boundaries were broken and how,
7:22
[SPEAKER_01]: this kid kept coming back to this detox.
7:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I was really honest.
7:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I said it all of it looks really suspect, which only tells me that unless we have a conversation where you kind of explain how you do things, I will not be using you as a detox in the future.
7:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want to stress for the viewers and listeners at home who when we talk about ethics, think about it this way.
7:43
[SPEAKER_01]: In Wall Street,
7:45
[SPEAKER_01]: where our money is protected, right?
7:47
[SPEAKER_01]: We have the SEC that regulates, right?
7:50
[SPEAKER_01]: In the treatment industry, when we're talking about someone's mental health, substance abuse issues, someone's life, we have no one policing us.
7:59
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, a big reason of why I wanted to do this show was
8:04
[SPEAKER_01]: to really shine and show people, not only resources, but who the good guys are, you know, who the good providers are, how to look for the good things and the good treatment, and not to be discouraged.
8:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Because unfortunately, like anything else, without kind of this kind of regulation over us, it can be the Wild West, and people will take advantage.
8:26
[SPEAKER_01]: But my hope is everybody will tune in and listen to us, and then the world will be a perfect place.
8:33
[SPEAKER_02]: So I agree with most everything that you said, but I'm going to say that there is a little bit of oversight and regulation, like if there wasn't, it would be completely pandemonium correct.
8:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry, so that's why I have you there is you're going to educate me.
8:50
[SPEAKER_02]: definitely is where we can be a lot better.
8:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's something that I'm hoping to to dive into.
8:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And I've been in the field for a long time.
8:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And I've covered things from I've worked in admissions.
9:01
[SPEAKER_02]: I've overseen marketing, alumni, I've done policy, government relations.
9:06
[SPEAKER_02]: And there is a lot of people in this field who do things the right way and who are doing really good work and you you touch that.
9:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Unfortunately there's people that are that are not.
9:15
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think what the tricky balance is is finding more oversight.
9:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think that those are some of the things that we'll dive more into.
9:23
[SPEAKER_02]: But there is good people out there.
9:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll do respect to my colleagues out there, but for years, we've all gone to these conferences where there's these pre-ethics meetings or that's ethics about ethics circle with the ethics meeting.
9:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And I never know or understand what those actually do and maybe you can tell me and maybe there is more.
9:44
[SPEAKER_01]: But
9:45
[SPEAKER_01]: from where I'm standing, like you said, we definitely need more oversight.
9:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, when let me kick off like this, when we think of ethics in residential treatment, like what is one of the biggest misconceptions or myths that you would like people to understand.
10:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
10:04
[SPEAKER_02]: So a couple of things and I think that that's a really good question.
10:07
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that a typical treatment, it's not just bad behavior, right?
10:11
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a proactively building systems that support safety of the patients, transparency, and quality care.
10:19
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that those are three other things that we really are looking at the most with ethics.
10:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Many people can say, just don't do illegal things.
10:27
[SPEAKER_02]: And in reality, that ethics and treatment is really about small systematic changes as opposed to just they're doing bad things.
10:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Families, hand in, I know you work with so many families.
10:38
[SPEAKER_02]: They often assume that if a treatment center is licensed, then it must be ethical.
10:43
[SPEAKER_02]: And that it must be ethical and clinically sound.
10:47
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is not always the case.
10:50
[SPEAKER_02]: So licensing as I see it is kind of the floor.
10:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And so high quality treatment, it goes far beyond the minimum of just being licensed.
10:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Licenses is really and truly just a very big minimum of the minimum.
11:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, in the last thing, another misconception is that all treatment centers are the same.
11:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I want to say facilities are so vastly wildly different families and families and crisis don't know what to look for.
11:16
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think there's.
11:18
[SPEAKER_02]: There was a list of things that I look for when I'm looking at a brand new treatment center that I haven't been to in person.
11:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
11:24
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm happy to get into that later.
11:26
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's that's kind of a kind of.
11:29
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not shallow.
11:30
[SPEAKER_01]: There are viewers and listeners because I like to give these show notes at the end with resources and kind of tangible tips.
11:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And kind of you know.
11:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I used to do it too when I was doing marketing for treatment centers, I used to get so frustrated with families not frustrated with the families, but frustrated that not frustrated with the wrong word.
11:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course they didn't know the right questions to ask.
11:54
[SPEAKER_01]: So what I would try to do is if they were looking at young adult programs or adolescent programs, I would create like a hot ten list.
12:01
[SPEAKER_01]: ask every admission team these questions, you know, don't just look at the price, don't just look at it, it takes my insurance, you know, this is, and we're going to get into my whole stick about how this is the biggest investment in your life, you know, but before I jump into that, like, what do you think, like when we've seen the good, we've seen the bad, we've seen the ugly, but like how do you define good, ethical treatment today and what are some of the biggest gaps you see existing?
12:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
12:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's start at one from a marketing perspective and looking at a website.
12:34
[SPEAKER_02]: So the things that I look for in a website does it have the treatment staff listed.
12:39
[SPEAKER_02]: That's it has pictures titles.
12:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Bios are nice to have, but if it does not have pictures of your staff, that is a join-ormous red flag.
12:49
[SPEAKER_02]: So that is one.
12:51
[SPEAKER_02]: So one of the things that I wish I could get past.
12:54
[SPEAKER_02]: would be that treatment centers can only use actual photos of their treatment center on their website that no stock photos allowed.
13:02
[SPEAKER_02]: When I worked for a treatment center in Colorado, they were very big on only having authentic pictures that photos that they take.
13:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
13:11
[SPEAKER_02]: I've seen a lot of people that are deceived by going to a website and seeing a beautiful picture of a treatment center on the ocean when in reality it's in the shopping center in the middle of the city mirror near the beach, right.
13:24
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that that I think that that is one deceptive.
13:27
[SPEAKER_02]: It's so so staff.
13:30
[SPEAKER_02]: you can't trust what you see on the website necessarily as as far as photos.
13:35
[SPEAKER_02]: And then so some of the other things that I want to see that that I want to see as a professional, and then I'll talk about family.
13:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Does that work?
13:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Beautiful.
13:45
[SPEAKER_02]: So as a professional in curious of what a person curious with the data and outcomes are and how they're finding that.
13:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And so there's one thing for a treatment center to say, we have a 99% success rate of reaching through a discharge.
14:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
14:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, how are you coming up with that?
14:03
[SPEAKER_02]: You what measurement tool are using to find your data and outcomes.
14:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And do you have data and outcomes that you are providing?
14:10
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's one of the things that I'm looking for.
14:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Can I just interject and say that's a family's listening?
14:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I know you all want outcomes.
14:18
[SPEAKER_01]: outcomes are great.
14:19
[SPEAKER_01]: But I have to say someone who also worked at a couple of treatment centers.
14:22
[SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to get those outcomes because if someone's doing not well, they're not going to pick up the phone and say, sure, we'd love to do a survey with you.
14:29
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
14:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And so as good as they can be, they're not, I personally find totally accurate.
14:37
[SPEAKER_01]: But carry on, sorry, I just wanted to say that.
14:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, that's a very good point.
14:42
[SPEAKER_02]: But even when they do have outcomes, again, I'm going to go back one step and be like, okay, well, how are you getting these?
14:50
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's a good one.
14:53
[SPEAKER_02]: But going back to your question, Hannah, sorry, I diverted from it.
14:57
[SPEAKER_02]: You would ask about the good, the bad, and the ugly, right, in the industry.
15:01
[SPEAKER_01]: That was the question.
15:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
15:04
[SPEAKER_02]: So for me, one of the good things is, do they have clinically centered care, right?
15:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Are the decisions guided by what's best for what's clinically appropriate and what's best for the patient and transparency is the other one.
15:18
[SPEAKER_02]: So clear communication around pricing, going back to the staff.
15:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
15:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Around insurance coverage and what clinical model that they're having.
15:29
[SPEAKER_02]: So there should be no surprises.
15:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, surprise.
15:32
[SPEAKER_02]: When you were talking to the admissions team and then for what happened, um, you know, always wish be in switch.
15:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I've dealt with that a lot lately, even in the industry referring a friend to a treatment center.
15:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I saw it where they said, oh, you'll get this service that service, this service.
15:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they said, no, you'll only get those services if you stay 69 weeks.
15:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, you didn't say that on the admission call.
15:55
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
15:56
[SPEAKER_02]: correct.
15:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I think pricing is one of those things to that should be pretty clear cut.
16:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And it shouldn't be so elusive like oh we'll get to that we'll get to that you should be able to have transparency on on the price and transparency on the service that you're getting.
16:11
[SPEAKER_02]: I agree.
16:12
[SPEAKER_02]: something that's very important to me too is are you providing evidence-based clinical services?
16:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And so you will find that sometimes families can get swayed by real fancy amenities that are going on in the treatment set.
16:25
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, is acupuncture an evidence-based
16:29
[SPEAKER_02]: clinical service that is going to, that's proven to help.
16:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And actually, I don't know the answer to that.
16:34
[SPEAKER_02]: But defining out if the clinical services that they're provided have been proven to be good.
16:39
[SPEAKER_02]: And that gets a little bit in the nitty gritty, but you should at least have an overview of that on the website or within the materials that you're looking at.
16:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So I've also always had, you know, when I was, you know, marketing all these years, you know, any facility that leads with their
16:55
[SPEAKER_01]: their buildings and their amenities are already I'm not trusting because yes, that's a lovely building.
17:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's awesome.
17:02
[SPEAKER_01]: They get their own room with, you know, this thread count of pillow.
17:07
[SPEAKER_01]: But let's get to the meat and potatoes.
17:09
[SPEAKER_01]: What's the treatment?
17:11
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, obviously we want our young adults kids who ever comfortable, but if that's what you're leading with, sometimes that can be suspect of whether that's even a good program.
17:21
[SPEAKER_02]: 100%.
17:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I completely completely agree.
17:24
[SPEAKER_02]: And when I go on tours and they try to show the fancy and salary stuff, I don't care about the gym.
17:30
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't care about the gym.
17:33
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I know.
17:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm the same.
17:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't care about what shampoo and conditioners are in the hours.
17:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And that, you know, they get their own room.
17:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I do care.
17:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd like to see where people
17:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I cared when I was choosing treatment for myself as a young adult.
17:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I tried to choose, and my mom said, no, you don't get the horse in the sand and chill out, we're picking.
18:00
[SPEAKER_01]: But like, what are, so we've talked about, I think, a lot of like red flags, you know?
18:05
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think just to keep it simple for families, and I'll say this, if it seems too good to be true, it probably is, right?
18:14
[SPEAKER_01]: For sure.
18:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And so are there some red flags that we haven't mentioned that you want to talk about with residential treatment still that
18:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, definitely.
18:22
[SPEAKER_02]: So over promising things guarantee there there are no guarantees with as as much as I'm a mom and myself like as much as I would want to hear that there anyone who promises you a cure promises guaranteed success right full of shit full of shit.
18:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
18:41
[SPEAKER_02]: So I would say that over promising is it is a red flag.
18:45
[SPEAKER_02]: If there is no clear clinical model that they're presenting or weak staffing.
18:52
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you, I would encourage the treatment center to at least have master level clinicians, because you don't want an intern, you don't want an intern.
19:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, right.
19:05
[SPEAKER_02]: There's two more things that I would definitely suggest, a big red flag and then you definitely probably have experience with this is pressure tactics.
19:15
[SPEAKER_02]: You should not ethical programs do not use fear.
19:18
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't use sales techniques.
19:22
[SPEAKER_02]: So they're going to be authentic.
19:24
[SPEAKER_02]: They're going to want the best for your child or for your loved one.
19:28
[SPEAKER_02]: And they're, you're not going to feel so much pressure like,
19:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
19:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Urgent C definitely is important, but they shouldn't make you feel that.
19:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
19:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
19:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Do more.
19:42
[SPEAKER_01]: No, go.
19:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I love all these by the way.
19:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I was just thinking too, but go.
19:47
[SPEAKER_02]: They're if they don't have licensure or if they have an inconsistent regulatory history.
19:53
[SPEAKER_02]: So you may say, what is that?
19:55
[SPEAKER_02]: every residential, every residential treatment center needs to be licensed by the state.
20:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I personally would not recommend, I personally would not recommend a loved one to a treatment center if it is not at least joint commission or carve accredited.
20:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Either one of those things would be located on the bottom of the website if they are.
20:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And what those just mean is that they have gone through extra steps to be able to
20:22
[SPEAKER_02]: be accredited.
20:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, to me, having a license and being accredited is very, very important.
20:30
[SPEAKER_01]: But I also want to stress and not to scare the viewers and listeners, because yes, CarfinJaco is very important.
20:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I've also, that's the bare minimum for me.
20:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's the bare minimum, because I've also seen programs find tactics to be unethical.
20:45
[SPEAKER_01]: with even being jaco and car for credit it, you know?
20:48
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why you're here and we're talking about obviously we need more.
20:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing against jaco or car.
20:53
[SPEAKER_01]: At the end of the day, good or bad, this is a multi-billion dollar industry like major money in that a lot of people need mental health treatment, a lot of people need treatment with their addiction.
21:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And so because of that again,
21:12
[SPEAKER_01]: What else?
21:13
[SPEAKER_01]: What other red flags?
21:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I like your list and you're educated.
21:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
21:16
[SPEAKER_01]: So what did?
21:18
[SPEAKER_01]: What were you saying before about checking the regulatory history?
21:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that what you're talking about?
21:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Would you go and carve it every year?
21:24
[SPEAKER_01]: They might be okay.
21:26
[SPEAKER_01]: It is okay.
21:26
[SPEAKER_01]: How does one find out at that out?
21:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Just by at the bottom of the website?
21:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's it.
21:30
[SPEAKER_02]: The website they're going to have either a joint commission or a car flow stamp.
21:35
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's going to, that's going to allow them.
21:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Now,
21:38
[SPEAKER_02]: this really gets in the nitty gritty.
21:40
[SPEAKER_02]: There are some very salacious places.
21:42
[SPEAKER_02]: This is illegal to do, but that will have the logo on there that aren't really accredited.
21:46
[SPEAKER_02]: But for 95% of the time, if they have it on there, then it's legit.
21:54
[SPEAKER_01]: What are some other ed flags?
21:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go, let's keep going.
21:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Would want to know.
21:58
[SPEAKER_02]: So depending on what type of treatment center you're looking at, what is their discharge planning afterwards?
22:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And so if you're at a 28 day facility, what are some of the options going to be for my loved ones after care plan?
22:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, yeah, I think that that's an important thing.
22:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
22:15
[SPEAKER_01]: because we're going to be doing an episode on that where, and I don't want to completely go rogue, but the whole mentality of 30-day treatment, which was, you know, originally designed by the military.
22:25
[SPEAKER_01]: My point is that if you are, you know, admitting to anywhere for 3690, it is so important to ask the questions, what happens next?
22:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Because there is a next, and sometimes
22:40
[SPEAKER_01]: and you don't want to be working with a facility where it's all about you just paying them and them not thinking of the next step.
22:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Because as I always tell a family's when I'm working with them, you also want to be able to spread your finances out over a year, hypothetically, you know, possibly.
22:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if you're getting a program that's just ready to take it all and not
23:00
[SPEAKER_02]: look at what comes out of it.
23:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, and I think just like the main thing to because it just does happen a lot with me is if any treatment center I'm going to say it again and again again that says don't worry about the finances don't worry about running the benefits your insurance is taken blah blah blah.
23:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't do it.
23:20
[SPEAKER_01]: because you're going to get a big ol' fat bill at the end.
23:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Make sure all the programs I've worked with, we run those benefits prior.
23:27
[SPEAKER_01]: We are very transparent on, this is the deductible.
23:31
[SPEAKER_01]: This is what your cost will be, no surprises.
23:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So...
23:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, you're you're exactly right and in programs.
23:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Good programs will do that.
23:42
[SPEAKER_02]: I will I'm going to piggyback on what we're talking about the for continuing care.
23:47
[SPEAKER_02]: So I currently in the co president of the board for T pass, which is treatment professionals and alumni services.
23:54
[SPEAKER_02]: I am very passionate about alumni.
23:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's one of the things I would say too to look at.
23:59
[SPEAKER_02]: See if the treatment center that you the the treatment program that you're looking at do they have an alumni program.
24:05
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a really good point.
24:06
[SPEAKER_02]: And so majority of them will have an alumni tab at the top where you can see something that families could look for as well.
24:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's the most telling for that's your outcomes study.
24:17
[SPEAKER_01]: If you have a strong feeling in my program, that's your outcomes study.
24:20
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I mean, and it's so I'm glad you pointed that out, you know, because that is so important to ask again at the end of the show we're going to
24:29
[SPEAKER_01]: give you guys probably a list of questions to ask admissions, directors, and people you speak to, and why I also stress this before we get to the next question is, and I can't say this enough again because I've worked with so many adolescents and young adult families.
24:42
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, when I think about my girlfriends right now, who all their daughters or kids are looking at colleges, you know,
24:47
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a major investment, you are traveling to the school, you are touring, you are asking the right questions, you are taking the time, because you possibly are going to be writing not only a big check, but this is your child's education for the next four years.
25:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I only wish, and I know it's different, maybe, because a lot of times where I ask families not to plan in crisis, they do plan in crisis, but my wish for families is to do the same due diligence, if not more, when it comes to your loved one going to treatment.
25:20
[SPEAKER_01]: This is about someone's mental health, someone's life.
25:23
[SPEAKER_01]: It's to me I don't care if you got into Harvard or you're on the captain of the Yale swim team.
25:30
[SPEAKER_01]: If you don't have your head together, you know what I mean?
25:33
[SPEAKER_01]: None of that matters.
25:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I wish, you know, a lot of times I would get like a mom or dad or like an aunt calling me getting the information saying they're going to get back to everybody and tell them about, you know, the program.
25:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And my thing is like,
25:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Is this how we would be doing the schools?
25:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And if so, that's fine, but I just feel like this is such an investment that I want everyone to feel good about this, you know what I mean?
26:01
[SPEAKER_01]: press pause just slow down even you know and you know because we've spoken to this family's in crisis where they're like we need to act now he wants to go right now he's detoxing right now she is she is accepted she she wants you know and i'm like slow down slow down because we're gonna rush them in and then we're not gonna be equipped to deal with when they want to come out and we also are gonna rush the process and finding the right program and so
26:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Take the time and please, even if you've only been recommended one program, I always recommend and if you're speaking to a good program, they will give you two other options.
26:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Correct.
26:45
[SPEAKER_02]: completely agree.
26:47
[SPEAKER_02]: It's tricky too because you plan for college, right?
26:50
[SPEAKER_02]: No one's a plan that's where loved one was going to go to treatment.
26:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course.
26:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that makes it tricky because who wants to read about what you know steps to take if you need to send a loved one to treatment.
27:02
[SPEAKER_02]: So majority of the time it's coming in a moment of crisis because it's not something you want to plan for or you think you need to plan for.
27:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
27:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, part of the reason I'm doing this show can at call is to really highlight the good guys out there.
27:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I always like to say Nikki, I am a connector, but I'm a collector.
27:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And I like, you know, this about my relationship with you is, you know, when I see people and I meet people over the past 18 years that I know just get it and we'll like.
27:32
[SPEAKER_01]: just our amazing providers.
27:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to do my best to, like, screen to the whole world that these are the people you should be calling.
27:40
[SPEAKER_01]: These are the good guys, these are the helpers.
27:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Speaking of which, because I think this is also a misconception out there, thanks to some movies that are out there and people.
27:48
[SPEAKER_01]: terminology.
27:49
[SPEAKER_01]: What is the difference can you explain to people like you and I who in the past have marketed for treatment centers, right?
27:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Where we do get these family calls and because we may not have the clinical background or I don't.
28:04
[SPEAKER_01]: but over the years what I've been able to do is hear the story from the family kind of assess a little bit see if they would be a match for our program and not give other options based on the tours that I've taken and the great programs that I've seen because that's another piece.
28:19
[SPEAKER_01]: If you've got a marketer or somebody on the other in the line, they're like, we can only do this work.
28:24
[SPEAKER_01]: We are the one.
28:25
[SPEAKER_01]: That's also a suspect, but what is the difference between someone like us who speak to families and assess and educate and our marketer and what this patient brokering is.
28:39
[SPEAKER_02]: It is, and it's, we'll, we'll dive into pace of brokering in, in just a minute.
28:44
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's, there's a handful of things.
28:46
[SPEAKER_02]: So what a legitimate facility is, what a legitimate good as a go facility representative when you're talking to is going to do is they're going to educate the family on the programs model the staff and the clinical fit.
29:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so that's going to be one of the first things that they do.
29:09
[SPEAKER_02]: They are going to explain cost and insurance with transparency.
29:13
[SPEAKER_02]: They are also going to provide alternatives as you and I talked about when a program is not clinically appropriate, they're going to do that.
29:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And so those are a couple of things that a good facility is going to do.
29:24
[SPEAKER_02]: What a patient broker does, they're getting paid per person or per head, which is so awful to say.
29:31
[SPEAKER_02]: They have no responsibility for any clinical appropriateness.
29:37
[SPEAKER_01]: which I hate, but that is the term in the treatment as tree heads and beds continue.
29:44
[SPEAKER_02]: And they're going to use fear, urgency, and false promises is what a patient broker is going to do.
29:51
[SPEAKER_02]: They're going to offer inducements.
29:52
[SPEAKER_02]: And so what inducements is are free flights, which is one of the red flags waving with both hands in front of you.
30:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
30:02
[SPEAKER_02]: They're gonna offer things like rent and gifts.
30:04
[SPEAKER_02]: So also, they're going to offer, oh yeah, they're also gonna offer to sign your loved one up for our insurance potentially.
30:14
[SPEAKER_02]: That is a, also a red flag.
30:18
[SPEAKER_01]: another marketer should be giving any family like we may encourage you and say like if you're under state insurance and if you would like, you know, to use private and network insurance, we would recommend maybe getting a policy for that loved one, but we're not allowed to set it up, tell you which policy to use and give that.
30:37
[SPEAKER_01]: So right.
30:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
30:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, there are a patient broker is going to avoid any transparency about where the money is coming from or they'll say don't worry about it.
30:46
[SPEAKER_02]: We've got it.
30:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't worry about it.
30:47
[SPEAKER_02]: And they're not going to want to get into the nitty gritty of use that term twice.
30:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't use that very often nitty gritty.
30:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I like your terms.
30:55
[SPEAKER_01]: You haven't said dang yet today and I've been really waiting for dang anyway.
30:59
[SPEAKER_02]: I still have some time.
31:01
[SPEAKER_02]: So they're not going to be very transparent about the way that that things work.
31:05
[SPEAKER_02]: They're going to want you to see a nice shining glossy visual and get the the patient and so how to how to identify the differences.
31:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I think something that's really important, Hannah, because a lot of times, if you Google, let's say if I were, I would in South Florida.
31:25
[SPEAKER_02]: So if I was to Google, you know, residential treatment center, that's not a good example.
31:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's say, okay, let's say I'm in the Midwest.
31:34
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm from Missouri.
31:35
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's say I'm in Missouri and I Google, residential treatment center.
31:39
[SPEAKER_02]: What happens is a treatment center that pays the most is more than likely gonna come up first.
31:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And it can have a deceptive name.
31:48
[SPEAKER_02]: So it can make me think I'm looking in a treatment center in Missouri and it has a 1-800 number.
31:53
[SPEAKER_02]: So what I would really encourage families to do when they are calling is ask who employs them and make sure that they are an employee of the treatment center that they think that they're calling.
32:06
[SPEAKER_01]: that's helping to me.
32:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I've called a couple programs on behalf of a family and I was in a rush and I did the 800 number and I could tell right away it wasn't what I was calling because it was totally different state.
32:20
[SPEAKER_01]: They didn't have an accent and I remember saying, is this the program that I
32:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And they were like, don't worry, and I was like, no, I'm not worried.
32:27
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the point I want to speak to is this the program.
32:30
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think again, these are these are things we're going to be leaving as like take a waste for you guys to like really please like do these things because yeah, people have got it.
32:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm glad you brought that up because people have gotten really swift with that where you think you're doing a program and you're not.
32:47
[SPEAKER_02]: And so you deserve to have an answer.
32:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And that goes back to the transparency part.
32:51
[SPEAKER_02]: There should be no stumbling over who they work for.
32:55
[SPEAKER_01]: So also saw with the brokering I was reading an article a while back and I couldn't believe how invested some of these brokers were like there were some brokers who would like their territory let's say was Boston right and they would literally like immerse themselves in the AA community or whatever recovery community and kind of just
33:17
[SPEAKER_01]: either induce or just wait for that relapse to happen, but they leech onto these individuals to the point where like in this article, I read it was these two guys who had met in a meeting, the one guy
33:32
[SPEAKER_01]: It was supposedly using and got the other guy to use and said let's both go to treatment together.
33:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I know a place we can go to.
33:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Bob took it for that guy and they flew together and the other guy we found that was just a broker.
33:45
[SPEAKER_01]: He didn't even really use.
33:46
[SPEAKER_01]: It was just kind of this tactic.
33:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean it can get really slimy.
33:50
[SPEAKER_02]: But again, if it sounds too good to be true, it is.
33:56
[SPEAKER_02]: If it sounds too good to be true, and I have found too that if a facility has to repeat how ethical they are, they're usually full of shit.
34:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
34:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Somebody is going to start a statement and say, I'm so ethical.
34:09
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm x, y, z.
34:10
[SPEAKER_02]: It's usually not.
34:11
[SPEAKER_02]: You shouldn't have to start a sentence.
34:13
[SPEAKER_01]: What do I always say to you?
34:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I say this to everybody.
34:14
[SPEAKER_01]: My mother taught me this.
34:21
[SPEAKER_01]: love they have in their relationship.
34:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Anybody who like, like, you know, is just over or jealous about anything like that, they typically don't have it.
34:28
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and it's not trustworthy.
34:30
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think also when we talk about red flags in treatment,
34:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I think another area, again, going back to please talk to two or three different providers, that includes transports, interventionists.
34:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I just dealt with this recently where I had a transport who was recommended actually by a church and this individual, like,
34:59
[SPEAKER_01]: was delaying, basically how to transport a kid from Atlanta airport to this facility, right?
35:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And kept saying, all these reasons why they kept missing the flight.
35:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And typically, when a transport and interventionism is so flight, it's because the intervention went bad, or the client has run, right?
35:16
[SPEAKER_01]: that didn't happen.
35:17
[SPEAKER_01]: They just found all these reasons of why they couldn't catch that flight, knowing that if they missed the window on that Friday to see the, get the clinical assessment, then they would be with that individual over the weekend and they could charge the family to babysit and kind of be a sober companion.
35:33
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, why I say this and they were totally
35:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Extremely overpriced.
35:40
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, what I say to the family before you write that check, right, before you, you know, just hand a bunch of money over to somebody, find one or two other people that can do the same thing, please and compare and contrast.
35:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for tuning into this episode of Connect Call.
35:58
[SPEAKER_01]: As we conclude, remember that insights shared are intended for informational and educational purposes only and should not substitute professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
36:08
[SPEAKER_01]: We strongly recommend consulting a qualified medical health professional or health care provider for personalized advice tailored to your unique needs.
36:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Your mental health journey is important and having the right support is essential.
36:21
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're experiencing a mental health crisis or require immediate assistance, please reach out to a mental health provider for emergency services in your area.
36:30
[SPEAKER_01]: We're grateful to have you as part of our community and your well-being remains our priority.
36:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So follow us on social media to stay connected and be sure to catch one of our episodes on our YouTube channel.
36:41
[SPEAKER_01]: We're here to support you every step of the way.