Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #173: Raw Milk Under Fire: Joel Salatin Breaks Down the New Mandate

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Episode #173: Raw Milk Under Fire: Joel Salatin Breaks Down the New Mandate · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so now the escalation of this is that they're actually sending, they're actually pulling samples from on farm bulk tanks.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got a fleet of these, you know, inspectors that are going out pulling samples from individual bulk tanks on farms to actually identify is it is it this farm or is it one of these six farms?
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's where it's headed.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of Beyond Labels with yours truly, Farmer Joel Salatin and our favorite researcher, Dr.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Cena McCullough.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Today we're coming with a little bit of a current events thing.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: If you're watching the news at all, uh you're seeing all sorts of information about bird flu.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I think for sake of today's discussion, we're not gonna we're not gonna be uh deal with all the technically correct jargon about calling it H1, uh H5N1 or you know, whatever the designations are.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: We're just gonna call it the bird flu.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: We all know what we're talking about, generic bird flu.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: In in whatever permutation that happens to be.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: And uh in milk, uh a lot of uh going on in milk.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: So Cena's got the rule here that came out uh here actually just a couple of weeks ago, just in December here.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: And um, there seems to be a a bit of a ramp up in the inspections and the testing, and we're gonna dig into that a little bit.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: But uh let's let's uh let's get to the direct rule.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Cena, bring us up to date on where we are as far as the um as far as the testing and the bureaucracy and the rules are concerned uh with the USDA in this bird flu dairy uh testing.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, thanks, Joel.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm really interested in hearing what you have to say about what people are talking about this.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just I'm getting lots of people messaging me saying that they're coming after raw milk.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I really want to get to the bottom of this.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a new order, it's a federal order that was issued on December 6th of 2024, requiring additional testing for and reporting of the highly pathogenic avian influenza HPA1 in livestock and milk.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: As Joel said, we're gonna just call it the bird flu.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: So in this document, they outline what they have seen happening.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to bring everybody up to speed before we dive into it.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna go through their timeline.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: They said on February 8th of 2022, both the U.S.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Department of Agriculture or they confirmed that this bird flu was in a commercial poultry flock in the United States.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: Since February of 2022, the USDA worked with different states and poultry producers to identify and respond to over 1,200 detections of the bird flu on poultry farms.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: And they've been trying to, they said, mitigate the virus's impact on poultry production and on trade.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: So on April 24th of 2024, the USDA issued a federal order requiring testing for and reporting of this bird flu in livestock.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: And basically what they said was as of April 29th, the federal order um mandated testing for interstate movement of the dairy cattle and also for epidemiological information for cattle that tested positive, a mandatory reporting of positive test results for the influenza A in any livestock species.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: So the big part of this was the mandatory testing for the interstate movement of the dairy cattle.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Now, yeah, and Cena, just to make sure we're all on the same page, that that April 24 of this of 20, April 20 of 2024, April of 2024, that uh that ruling was the first time that there was a a definite shift.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Bird flu has always been birds.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's just always been turkeys and chickens uh up and up until then.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: That was precipitated by the dairy in Texas, if you recall, early in 2024.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: The dairy in Texas that supposedly had it in their dairy herd, uh, and then the cats drank the milk, and the cats got bird flu, if you'll recall.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think two of the workers got bird flu, which didn't kill them.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: It was just like a like a cold symptom, uh, and then they were okay.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it was it was that that um the regulatory concern of cross-speciation that for the first time moved bird flu from a poultry issue to to um a bovine, to a poultry and a bovine issue, primarily milk, not beef cattle, uh, primarily dairy cows.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: So now we have this now we have this new ruling.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna test uh because in that case, that dairy, by the time they allegedly, and I'm I'm I'm using the word allegedly because uh uh you know I don't trust much of anything that comes out of them, but uh the the alleged um uh you know increase in number, there there were within a very short time there were animals, there were dairy cows in Wisconsin and Ohio and other states.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so they wanted to catch this transport, uh, a dairy cow that gets sold and moves across state line.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's what they wanted to catch uh with this with this new ruling.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: So there were two things involved.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: One was cross-speciation for the first time, and secondly, the interstate transport of the animals.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, and according to the USDA, they said that as of that April 24th date, right, as of the date where they issued that first order, that they had confirmed the bird flu in um 33 dairy cattle premises in across eight states, including Kansas, Idaho, Michigan, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio, South Dakota, and as Joel said, Texas.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: They said they also confirmed eight poultry premises in five states, which was Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, New Mexico, and Texas.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: So just like Joel said, the US state here is citing that there's 33 different cattle premises across eight states, and there's eight poultry premises across five states that have detected this bird flu, again, you know, crossing the species and crossing states.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that preempted that first order.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then what they said in this new order is that now that there is more testing done under that first order from April, now they've identified that um pastured, uh, sorry, that unpasteurized milk, so raw milk, is quote, a vehicle for carrying the disease across state lines.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it's subject to measures to detect disease in accordance uh with their standards.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they said this laboratory testing has confirmed, quote, high quantities of the bird flu in raw, unpasteurized milk, which creates opportunities for transmission within herds when animals have contact with this unpasteurized milk.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: So you see the progression, right?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: First they found it in the birds, then they started testing more, then they found it in the cows, then they started testing more, and now they find it in raw milk.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're saying that this is from the actual order itself.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: It says while many factors contribute to transmission between premises, small amounts of unpasteurized milk from affected animals can harbor high levels of virus and can be easily spread among dairy farms and between dairy and poultry farms through the movements of people, vehicles, trucks, and other animals, including non-migratory birds.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Then they talk about how birds are much more susceptible to the smaller amounts of viral infections, which is going to increase the spread.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then it says in order to continue to monitor and understand the extent of this virus and reduce the risk of further spread, uh, resulting in more threats to poultry and livestock, this federal order requires testing of raw, unpasteurized milk to detect and provide data for the control and eradicate eradication of the bird flu.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: So here is the mandatory testing requirement.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Any person responsible for a dairy farm, bulk milk transporter, bulk milk transfer station, or dairy processing facility that sends or holds raw unpasteurized milk intended for pasteurization must allow the government or its cooperators to obtain raw milk in a quantity sufficient to test for bird flu.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: Going back to the beginning of that sentence, did it include dairies on dairy?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: What read read the read the first part of that again?
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's it says any re person, any person responsible for a dairy farm.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, for okay, all right, yeah.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: So what's what happened initially was that they were only testing incoming raw milk, like to a processing plant.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say, you know, a yogurt plant, uh, uh, well, any place that bottles milk, okay?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: So so what happens, just so we we bring our readers up to speed here.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: We want everybody to be smart, um, is that you have these dairies.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: And and it and the the dairies milk their cows.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: The cows, the milk goes into what's called a bulk tank.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, that's bulk milk.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Bulk tank.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, it's not bottled milk.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's not an individual, you don't milk cows into jugs of milk.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you you you you milk them into a great big stainless steel refrigerated.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's a specially designed and built tank to hold, you know, they make them all sizes, anywhere from, you know, little ones would be, you know, 300 gallons all the way up to, you know, uh 10,000 gallon uh tanks and and bigger, okay.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you got a great big dairy.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: So most dairies, most dairies are operating uh in the in the you know 500 to 2,000 gallon range per per pickup, okay, the size of a bulk tank.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: So this this big tractor trailer, you know, you've seen them on the road, uh, this big tractor trailer goes from farm to from dairy farm to dairy farm and picks up the milk from dairies.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: And often that truck, which might hold 8,000 gallons, will visit, you know, half a dozen dairies and and and you know, put all their milk in the bulk truck, it goes to the processing plant and you know gets gets made into whatever ice cream, yogurt, bottled milk, you know, whatever, butter.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so initially the testing was only done at the processing facility as those bulk trucks came in and unloaded, okay, which obviously could test again, supposedly, could test uh, you know, the milk from several dairies, but if there was a positive test, we didn't know which dairy it was from.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so now the um the escalation of this is that they're actually sending, they're they're actually pulling samples from on-farm bulk tanks.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got a fleet of these, you know, inspectors that are going out pulling samples from individual bulk tanks on farms to actually identify is it is it this farm or is it one of these six farms?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: It it um and and and that's that's where it's headed.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, now before you go on, can I ask you?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: So initially, you said initially they were testing at the processing facility with a bulk tank.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: If there was a positive test, since they can't they could not determine which farm it came from, what would they do?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Would would everybody have to dump their milk?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh well, what they would do then is go to the farm.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Is go to the farm to eat each of those farms and try to identify which one.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: At least, I mean, I don't know that for a fact, but that certainly seems reasonable.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: They normally, they normally would not go in aggressively and and and quarantine all the farms until they actually determined you know which one or ones uh that it was.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: That would that would be the normal thing.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now, initially, if you notice, all the initial orders were raw milk heading to pasteurization.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, they weren't even they weren't even concerned about dairies that were selling raw milk as raw milk.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because remember, raw milk is legal in many, many states.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, some of the states that it's not legal in, they sell it as pet food or herd share or cow share.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's there's uh numerous workarounds that that are being used.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: It it looked it looked like there's no there's no interest, but though it's not being said, what I'm getting at here is that the government is not testing tiny raw milk dairies.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: They'est testing larger commercial dairies.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: There's no testing being done if you have a herd share at a little, you know, uh uh ten cow uh operation.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: That milk is not being tested.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: What they're going after is the commercial dairies, which are not as clean as dairies that sell raw milk, because pasteurization allows you to fudge on sanitation, cleanliness, uh different things, you know, somatic cell count, which is actually plus in the milk, infection, you know, mammary, mammary gland infection.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so it it appears to me, and I I this is so now that much is a fact.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: My conjecture is my conjecture is that they're they're analyzing the most vulnerable or the dirtiest in the industry, and if they start seeing it in that milk, that milk coming you know from the dairy as it has to the processor, that the there will be a lot of pressure to actually absolutely and categorically outlaw the consumption of raw milk.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that that that will be that will be where this goes.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because and I want to hear more about what you're saying, but I would agree because unless I'm just missing some logical step here, the raw milk that was tested, you said it was on its way to be pasteurized.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if they're saying that pasteurized milk is safe, which they've said in this document that it this this bird flu gets killed once you pasteurize it, why are they testing that milk?
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why would they test the raw milk when it's gonna go get pasteurized anyway?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: That is that is a good question, Cena.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's a you know, it's a similar question to when we were getting the mRNA jab for COVID and everybody was complaining, was was uh everybody, you know, and and lots of people were well, if you don't, if you don't get the jab, then you're jeopardizing all the people that well, if the jab was actually efficacious and worked, why should you be concerned if I didn't get the jab?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if that's actually protective, who cares?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so you're exactly right, Cena.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: If if if pasteurization is a is a blanket uh uh a blanket protection, then who cares if it comes in uh like that, uh, you know, with with some with some bird flu in it.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and so yeah, it it does it does beg the it does beg something behind the curtain, you know.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's uh it to me it gives more credence to you know you postulating that they're looking for something, right?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: They're looking for a way, some justification, they need evidence to say this is not safe.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: We're doing this for your own safety, because look at what we have found.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if if uh uh to your argument, Cena, which is astute, you would think then that they would either be checking the pasteurized milk to make sure it's not in something you eat, all right.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: If if they were really concerned about this, they would check the pasteurized milk, make sure it's good, but then they would go to farms that only sell raw milk and check them.
• 17:41
  unknown: Yeah.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, and you're so you're saying even with this new order, even though it says any person responsible for a dairy farm, they're still not testing the small dairy farm, or now they are.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so so you gotta understand right now in the in in the dairy, whatever, in dairy, there's a huge difference, um difference on many on on in many ways between a dairy, and and when we say a dairy, this could be two cows, okay?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: But somebody sells raw milk.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody that's selling raw milk generally is much is much smaller.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: These raw milk dairies tend to be much smaller, and they tend to be much less um you know, industrial feed.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: They tend to not feed grain, they tend to or or very little grain.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's a there there's a much higher level of health.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: A much higher plane of health in in a um you know, in a a dairy that's selling or or moving milk, selling, herd sharing, whatever it is, if they're transacting, if they are in the raw milk retail space, raw milk for human consumption, yeah, they tend to be smaller, cleaner, and healthier.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's my point.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: So the testing that's being done is on the highest risk element of the dairy industry, not the lowest risk element.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: But are they classified as a dairy farm?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: So the small farms you're talking about, the these healthier farms where they have like herd shares for cow shares, for instance, are they subject to this new order?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because it says in the mandatory testing to milk, any person responsible for a dairy farm.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess it's the technicality of the definition, maybe.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Are they defined as a dairy farm?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: So are they still subjected to the order?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh as far as I can tell, it's strictly up to the aggressiveness of the you know, the agency as uh as to as to who they who they go check.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so uh Pete Kennedy, who's the attorney for pharmaconsumer uh for um um Weston A Price Foundation, uh sent me a memo he got from the um from the Massachusetts Department of AG.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: And interestingly, so so let's talk about the test.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: Have you kind of finished what you've got there on the order, Cena, or is there more?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, since you're going into it, into that part, let me just read the the part of the order that I found was most alarming.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh as though this wasn't already alarming enough.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, this is what it says word for word in this order.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: Should this order be deemed a substantive rule, AFIS has determined that good cause exists to implement these additional requirements without notice and comment, as evidence has shown that raw unpasteurized milk is a vehicle for the spread of the HPIA H5N1 virus.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: So they're saying if it becomes a substantive rule, then they've determined that they're gonna implement these additional requirements with no notice and no comment period because they've already determined that raw milk spreads the bird flu.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: So so so then then you go into this um, you know, emergency, the this kind of emergency thing that we saw during the mRNA jabs, where they used emergency emergency powers to bypass all of the historic protections that that checked on vaccines, that checked on This, that, and the other by emergency order.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that that's similar.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the language is not identical, but it's it's this it's the similar um whatever uh um you know agency agency directive.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's a similar strategy for sure.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, if we determine that it's bad enough, uh, you just lost all your rights.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we and and we and you should be thanking us because we are protecting you from yourself.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: So so let's let's talk just a smidgen about the test itself.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the test is uh uh have you ever heard PCR test before?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think everybody has by now, but I expect I expect Cena most of our listeners uh don't trust the PCR test, just period.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's got it's got a lot of problems.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, you know, we all know now that the developer of the PCR test says it shouldn't be used for diagnostic purposes.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: That that was not what and there's we won't we won't go into all that.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: We've we've been down that road plenty.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the point is that in the um in our tribe of of uh in our community, the uh the the PCR test the PCR test is essentially a um you know a a delusional test.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well Pete Kennedy got an email from the Massachusetts Department of Ag that said that um they were only using let me get this right here um that they had found that uh you might be able to explain this better.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: All I know is that there's a there's there's a thing called uh cycles in the PCR test.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: So many cycles, and you maybe can elucidate what all that is about.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: But Massachusetts has determined that anything over 30 cycles is a fraudulent test.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, it doesn't give you it's not accurate.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's not accurate.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the official FDA test, which is the one being used in the order that you've just been reading, the official FDA test uses 45 cycles.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: So Cena, here we have, here we have at least one state, and there are probably others, but at least one state in writing says that the that the test that's being used to conduct this operation is inherently fraudulent because of this because of the the way the test is being administered.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: You might be able to tell us a little more about these cycles.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, I I find that fascinating that already here we are this early in the in the deal, and we're already seeing major, major um, can we say scientific differences, you know, uh among among the um among the agency scientists as to what is an accurate test, what is not an accurate test.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: Can you repeat the numbers of the number of cycles?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Massachusetts says anything over 30 is untrustworthy, and the official FDA uh protocol is 45.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a huge red flag.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as people on our show know, we've talked about this a lot that um science is, and I am a scientist, okay.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not being anti-science at this point.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: This is just part of our training as scientists is to understand the limitations behind science, and particularly the limitations behind scientific technology and PCRs, polymerase chain reaction.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: This is a scientific technology, it's a more modern technology.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: And what it does is it involves taking DNA and basically amplifying it.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: So you go, you take it through a series of cycles to amplify the amount of DNA so that you can basically be able to detect if it's there or not.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: And the amount of cycles that you use makes a huge difference.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: So if the Massachusetts um, if they're saying that under 30 is trustworthy, then you have the FDA saying 45.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: That means they had to go through 15 more cycles in order to make the DNA um present so that we could see it, right?
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a huge discrepancy.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, most cycles um you usually go like 20 to 40 cycles, you know.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I'm just saying in generally to double the amount of the DNA there.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: So they've even pushed over that amount of cycles.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so this is huge for um introducing a possible something that could maybe not even be there, is what I'm saying.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: The more cycles you do, the more you can see stuff that's maybe not even there.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Cena, to help me understand, uh, because I I'm just uh I'm just a peasant layman here.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um the are the cycles let's do a ratio.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: Are these PCR cycles to the virus?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Let's assume there is a virus, are the PCR cycles well to the DNA, all right?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Is the PCR cycles to the DNA?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: Is that similar to a a um uh a microscope to microbes?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, it it the additional cycles are like a magnifying glass, or like a magnifying glass on the DNA DNA, and the more cycles, the the whatever, the the the smaller pieces you can see.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, that's actually a really good way to think about it, a good analogy, is because you so you repeat these steps in the cycle where you you denature the DNA strand, so you turn it into a single strand, then you um you do what's called annealing, you put a primer that binds to the complementary matches of the sequence that you're targeting, and then you do extension where the DNA polymerase hops on and it extends the DNA at the primer.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: So you're basically replicating it, so you're producing exact copies of it.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: So you repeat those three steps however many times you want, and that's the cycles, to exponentially produce more copies of this target DNA.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: So after like 30 cycles, for instance, you can have billions of copies of the target sequence.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: So you can see how it increases itself, like I said, exponentially.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: So every cycle is very detrimental to the integrity of the study because you're having to amplify more and more.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: So you could be amplifying something, like I said, that's just a fragment, like it may not even be an actual the the target that you think it is, it may not actually even exist because you're amplifying something that you can't even see initially.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: So isn't isn't this um this thought just struck me.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh philosophically, isn't this amazing?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you and I you and I appreciate that life is so uh what amazingly complex and yeah uh and and and spontaneous, uh, it's relational, it's reactive, it's responsive.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you can use all these things to describe how how how um the vitality, the vibrancy of of life.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so what what happens, I mean, uh I'm trying to think of a good of a good thing that if you know if you're looking for something, if you if you're looking for something and you amplify, amplify, amplify, amplify it, uh at a certain point, there are things floating in the universe.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you and I are are like pig pen in the peanuts comic strip, you know.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: We we've got we've got this little cloud of of you know, our breath things, you know, um our you know, we're expelling things through our eyeballs.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh get all gross on you, but but the point is we we are we are we are literally, you know, living things are walking, literally interactive at the at the electron microscope level of stuff that is that is in commerce.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah you know, I'll I'll uh I'll wrap I'll wrap you with a protective uh coat of something in exchange for you giving me some sugar.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean it's that it it it's it's that amazing.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so so as you ramp up these cycles, this this universe of floating microbes, bacteria, DNA strands, they're just they're just out here.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you start seeing things just like you would under a microscope.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I can't, I all that stuff was there all the time.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't see it, you know.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's that's what your amplification does.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: You start seeing things that are not there.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you when you um you know it's kind of so to me it's amazing that a system that inherently poo-poos poo-poos the biological status of life and wants to turn it all into mechanical is using a test that is predicated on the biological spontaneity of life and not the mechanical.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh a wheel bearing doesn't look around for a car wheel to go into.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta you you gotta find a car wheel and a wheel bearing, you gotta jam that thing in it, you gotta push it in there, grease it, and get the thing put in.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas a cow is walking around looking for a blade of grass.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: A bird is walking around looking for a grasshopper.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and every day the grasshopper hopes he can jump quicker than the chicken, and the chicken hopes she can pounce quicker than the grasshopper.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is all I'm I'm going off on a tangent here, but but you see, when I I find it, I find isn't it just the the height of hypocrisy for an agency that tends to view life as a fundamentally mechanical thing to then use a test that that requires floating spontaneous dynamic exchanges going on in at the at the at the electron microscope level.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm done.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I love when you go off on your ramblings.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're very fascinating.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I will tell you from a scientist perspective, like I understand what you're saying, from a scientist's perspective, that's not how they see it.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: So from a fine, so for me, this fits in perfectly with the mentality.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we're trained to think of the body as a machine, it's all mechanical.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: So here you go, we're using a machine in the lab, and we're doing what scientists would say is a controlled experiment.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: So they are thinking that they are being very precise and they're isolating this exact part of the DNA, like this exact segment of the DNA, and they are using precision technology to amplify it.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that is how a like a Western trained scientist would actually most likely think of this process.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: They will put their full faith in it, and and it is just an extension of the training that we're endowed with by the universities, that the everything is just machine-like, it's just very mechanical.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, uh, obviously I do not agree with that, but that is what my training taught me.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: There are many ways in which this is flawed thinking.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the first and foremost is I will point out that they think so.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: When we say, okay, we're going to this lab and we're we're starting with some DNA segment, right?
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: This is our target DNA that we're starting with.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, first of all, they can't see it.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: So they're just um let me back up a second.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: We've known since around the 1970s that DNA can change.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so that's the first flaw in this is that even the DNA inside our cells can actually change.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: We don't think of it that way, and we're not taught about DNA that way.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: We're taught that that is your genetic inheritance, but we know that it can change.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: So there's nothing to say that it's not changing or that what they got isn't some kind of change version, or it's not going to change.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, we know that it can change, so there's an inherent flaw right there.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: Also, we know that um DNA can react, it reacts to the environment.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: Studies have shown this now.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: So when you're in a lab setting, for example, the way that they're isolating these DNA is they're having to add different chemicals, what we call reagents to it to be able to isolate it.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Those are going to change potentially the structure of the DNA.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: It changes the structure of the water that's around it, which we think has a big role to play in the actual three-dimensional or tertiary conformation of the DNA itself.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that could actually be changing a laboratory setting.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: Light itself changes um the structure of the water.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: It can change the structure of the water, which can change the configuration of the DNA.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: So, in and in consequence, the reason why the configuration of the DNA is so critical here, why I'm harping on it, is because that we think changes what that gene expresses, if it expresses in what it's actually expressing, right?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh it's more of an epigenetic component of it.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: So we have all these confounding variables at play before we even start the process of replicating that target of DNA.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: Then you have another confounding variable that we have learned in more recent years about exosomes.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: And we I've talked about these when I interviewed Sayergie on our on our podcast.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that was when you were traveling.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I got him all to myself.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, good.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we'll have to have him back on, talk about these things.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: He's fascinating.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, anyhow, um, there's also the thing of exosomes.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I won't go into in great detail.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: I will just say that now we have discovered that for instance, when cells die, the body, uh, God designed us to be um conservationalist.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, uh, which is not a surprise.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: So the the let's say a cell's dying, the body will go through a process of basically recycling what's in that cell so that you're not wasting that energy that it took to make those structures and those chemicals, for instance.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it will recycle it and it does that by packaging it into what's called an exosome, which is a little sphere.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: And even you had the Journal of Virology come out and say that with the technology that we currently have, we can't tell the difference between an exosome and a virus.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, they may be the same thing, or they may all be viruses, or they may all be exosomes.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: We don't really know.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: So you have that not only that, but but there, but there's no causal.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: You don't you don't know which came first.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, it it's it's it's the old uh fire truck analogy.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: Every time I go by a fire, there's a fire truck.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, fire trucks must be causing the fire, you know?
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that is exactly right, Joel.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so some of these exosomes carry what are called micro RNAs.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have these little pieces of genetic information, those can also be amplified, right?
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, um, so we have all of these different confounding variables, and I hope that my big takeaway here in me walking you down these different paths is not to confuse or overwhelm, but to let you know just how complex the body is and how many potential confounding variables there are in any test, not just the PCR, but the PCR, in my opinion, is specifically uh susceptible to confounding variables because you are amplifying um a segment that you have targeted and you're amplifying it so that you can try to see if it's there.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: And if you have to amplify it many more cycles than what's recommended, I would say that that's potentially and most likely a false positive in agreement with what Massachusetts has said.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: Is that a longabout way to explain it?
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's extremely helpful.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I think the idea of as soon as we go into you know floating pieces of stuff, yeah, and and and and you start going down to as as minute a thing as possible, uh, you know, you the yeah, I love your confounding variables.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's such a great phrase, confounding variables.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: And and nobody is actually checking on these.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, so here we are, you know, uh I've got a I've got a dairy farm, okay?
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm selling milk to somebody.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: And the state comes in and does one of these tests or or or walks onto my property, no warrant, remember, no warrant.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: They can come in anytime they want to and pull a sample from my tank.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: I can't check their instrumentation, I can't check the sanitation of their checking apparatus.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: I can't okay, you start talking about confounding variables, all this stuff becomes a becomes a critical thing.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: And um especially uh to piggyback on what you're saying there, especially if you go back and realize the tell them about um with meat inspections, the poke and sniff.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, yeah, well, yeah, just I don't mean to laugh at it, but it is, it's like the little the strategies and the science that they come down on to establish these guidelines and subsequent punishments are laughable.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so I Joel, I would love for you to take a moment and explain this poke and sniff because I think this is really important for people to understand when we're now going into them trying to now regulate and maybe shut down these raw dairies.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like understand how um fragile this system is.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I mean, in in meat slaughter, in meat slaughter, um they actually poke and sniff is the is the phrase that's used for this, but there's actually a visual, you know, a visual look.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I've been in federally inspected slaughterhouses, for example, uh poultry, where um where the inspector is standing there and he's and he's checking off his box for temperature.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, the the tray holding the livers, the chicken livers, is green with broken gallbladders all in it.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: But because it's the right temperature and it doesn't smell bad, it's perfectly fine.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: At our farm, if we break a, if we break, you know, it happens.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's just, you know, it happens.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: You break a gallbladder on a liver, we throw that liver away.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: We don't, you know, and and we hate to, but uh it just happens once in a while.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: But I've watched them just send these these green gallbladdered stuff through because it doesn't stink yet and it's at temperature.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's a lot of this uh that goes on in the slaughterhouse that's that's um this extremely subjective.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's like they, you know, it's like they're regimented on one thing, but they're not regimented on another.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so a dare so a dairy farm that comes in with manure all over the cow's udder, for example, as long as they use enough chlorine and and and get it antimicrobial, um, that's perfectly that's perfectly fine.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: But a a place that keeps everything really, really clean, um then gets that doesn't use all of the very very um caustic and toxic antimicrobials might actually come out with a with a test that's that's worse than a than a dairy farm that comes in with a bunch of poop on the udder, but bathes everything with so much chlorine and antimicrobial, it actually looks cleaner because it's it's sterile, but it's got all All sorts of floaties in it, but they're benign because they got, you know, they got they got killed.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's it's a it's a very it's a very uh crazy thing.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: I I think I think for me, the the the biggest the the biggest issue here is let's say that I'm a dairy farmer and they come and check my tank and I don't and and and and they're using the 45 cycles, which Massachusetts says categorically is a fraudulent cycle.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I dare to say something.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't think your samples are are accurate or you know uh anything that's at the least bit uh negative, there is no there's no appeal process.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: There's no appeal process.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you go to appeal this?
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: They've got they've got an order, they can come without a warrant.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: So you can't you can't go say, well, you can't come unless you get a warrant.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you can't say, well, I'm gonna appeal to your, I'm I'm gonna appeal.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: There's no independent, the only appellate is their bosses, and their bosses are sending the guys out to do the, you know, to do the sample.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's kind of like an IRS audit, you know, where are you gonna appeal?
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: You appeal to an IRS board.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure, you know, they're gonna be impartial.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, so I I call this bureaucratic extortion, where the the farmer and the more than the the system, the system is essentially held hostage by um by regulatory um constraint.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: You if if you voice disagreement, then they bully you, then they then they look around and find something to, you know, that's that's um whatever, uh, a a fan, a fan that has a fly on it, uh, you know, uh a screen door that has a hole big enough for a worm to crawl through.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, the this test is a little bit like you know, think about it philosophically.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you want to find something wrong with somebody, if you look hard enough, you can find something wrong with somebody.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's kind of the way this is.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: And and so uh so if you if you dare to voice anything short of complete submission and uh agreement, then they can just what we say throw the book at you and find things and just bully you and bully you and bully you into you know to where you're you you're out of business.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: You lose your you lose your license or you lose uh something.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what I don't know is I don't know what happens to people that are completely outside the system.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like somebody that's selling milk as uh raw milk as pet food, and there are a lot of them, a lot of them selling uh raw milk as pet food.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: This i i if if they actually do use this as a platform to prohibit raw milk sales, I think the only way to make it stick, and I'm seeing I I'm I admit I'm kind of thinking through this as I'm talking, so it's it's it's it's fresh.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think the only way they can make it stick would be a blanket prohibition of ingesting raw milk.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: You mean across all species?
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: I yeah, uh-huh.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: I I I don't see if they actually determine that bird flu in raw milk is a is a health hazard, you know, similar to whatever fentanyl, cocaine, you know, uh methamphetamine, all right.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: If that becomes a determination, then the because if that becomes a determination, then there will be a criminal criminalization of ingesting raw milk.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: That means you won't be able to milk your own cow and drink its milk.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: Just like you can't you can't have a methamphetamine lab and take methamphetamine yourself.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that that would be a that would be a ramp up.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: I I I I don't see how they can, let's say, go after the raw milk dairies, especially the ones that are operating without a license, you know, under pet food um uh or or herd share, where they're outside the you know, outside the inspection system.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't see how they can shut those down unless they actually make a blanket prohibition of ingesting, not selling, but inje because the selling won't get the herd share.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's not a sale.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's a that's drinking milk from your own cow you've invested in.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, so somehow, if this is their ultimate intent, they're gonna have to move beyond the sale and go to the consumption.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that that would be a major, major uh, you know, change.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I mean, my gosh, they did that with alcohol, and look what happened.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, absolutely.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so then so then we have uh you know, we have bootlegg cows, got bootleg milk.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and and and then you have the whole uh uh the whole uh uh problem of forbidden fruit, you know.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I can imagine that it would just stimulate the demand for the for forbidden fruit.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: There's a there's an allure, you know, to oh, I'm getting forbidden fruit.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that that that's just a philosophical you know reality.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well some of us might start drinking it just to stick it to them, you know, as they say, like just to, you know, just to make that political statement that you will not take that right from me.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: There there would there would be a bit of a war.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm not saying uh you know a nuclear war, but there there would be a bit of a political war on their hands if they actually tried to do this.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: But but as I as I look at the at the strategy, at the rollout of this strategy and these orders, you can't come to any conclusion to me, except that this is yet another uh another angle to try to demonize and and ultimately criminalize uh raw milk.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it it just depends on how far they're gonna go with it.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, just on the flip side of that, I just want to get your take on it.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: When I was reading through the order, as I was putting on my science cap, I thought, you know, if I was let's say, you know, in charge of the bureaucracy there at USDA, and I had data coming to me that uh was indicating based on these you know precision science techniques that there's a danger there, that there's a threat, then wouldn't you think that it it is your obligation to do something to try to stop it from happening, right?
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like wouldn't like I'm trying to see it from their perspective, so it's not like oh, these you know, is it really that they're trying to specifically target raw milk?
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you think this is part of again trying to get into their heads and understand where they're coming from?
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: And they're coming from a space of fear, they're using this science with all this confounding variables, and they're not seeing it for that.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: They're seeing it as, you know, like this is fact, uh, no questioning it because it's science, it's settled science.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're literally thinking, my job is to protect the public.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: I have this information backed by science.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: This is what needs to happen, and they don't understand it, but I'm doing this for their own good.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do you what what do you think it is?
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think it's that?
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think they're really targeting it or a combo?
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, as you as you know, I have uh I'm I'm the anti-intent guy.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I I don't think that it helps us in our arguments or in our uh whatever, anything, to assume that they have ill intent.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna go after raw milk, that there's some some nefarious.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: Now, there are plenty of people who think that, all right, but I'm just going on record that that does not help.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that helps advance our side or our cause or our our idea.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think the proper way to look at this is exactly the way you've said there that they've you know there were some sick cows, they did some tests, bloom, you know, all right, they've got this.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: Let's assume that that's on the up and up.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um where I have a problem with then then the whatever the the the remedy the remedy is what they should be doing is looking at these 33 dairies.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: What you I think you said 33 dairies that in in um what do you say?
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_01: There were 33 dairy cattles in eight states.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: 33 herds in eight states.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: What they need to be doing is, I mean, here's a place you can use AI, okay?
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_00: They they should go into those dairies and and and get every single piece of data they could find.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: What where where did the cows come from?
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, look at the genetics of the cows.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_00: What are they feeding the cows?
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_00: What are they fertilizing the feed that feeds the cows?
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh how high is the organic matter on the fields that feed the cows?
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh what's what's the medical program?
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_00: What vaccines have the cows received?
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, who works the cows?
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how do they live?
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_00: What do they eat?
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because we know this human, okay.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm just I'm just brainstorming here, but wouldn't it be something to assemble all, I mean, where's the water coming from?
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh a check for uh EMFs uh in in in those dairies, um stress, how are they handled in the parlor?
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh yeah, there's there's um I mean I can just in in a minute I could tick off 30 or 40 strategic data points that could determine if a cow, if a cow's immune system is compromised and would let her be subject to getting bird flu.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just like you know, as we've talked before, even in these 15,000 bird Tyson houses that get high path bird flu, they never all die.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: Even if 14,000 out of 15,000 die from high path bird flu, a thousand survive.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_00: We should breed those.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_00: We we should we should hold those and and and look at different things.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: Why did why did these birds survive when nothing else did?
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's where you use that's where you use data, you know, uh to try to make your spreadsheets and what's the commonality?
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: You make you know, you try to make bar graphs, you overlap, you you know, that that's where data gets used.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: But but instead, this this is much more symptomatic of a witch hunt, you know.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: If you have it, um if you have it, then you simply you simply exterminate the product, you exterminate everything, um and and and there's no actual to me anyway, there's no reasonable scientific immunological search for what are the commonalities among these 33 that have these 33 herds that have it, versus and and and you could go to a bunch of herds that don't have it, okay, of similar size in in the same region, all right.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know, maybe maybe it is as simple as how many how many uh how many cars, you know, maybe what's similar is how many government vehicles drove into the place every day, you know?
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh Seneca transfer by people, so sure, sure.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you would clock in that.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I remember I remember when we had uh in our area, we had this high-path bird flu outbreak, oh goodness, 15 years ago, I guess, maybe 20.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: And um and and the the government came here to pull samples from our chickens, and I wouldn't let them out of their car.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: I said, You have no jurisdiction here.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I told them they couldn't get out of their car, so they turned around and left.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well, guess what?
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: They had come here from a Tyson chicken farm that had it.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't wash their tires before they drove onto the farm, they didn't wash their tires when they left.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_00: So if we had had it, let's let's just say we had had it.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: No, we didn't.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, but let's just assume we had, that there was zero basic, you know, sanitation being practiced.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_00: And and I talked to some of the the poultry farmers, um, and and I can assure you that to them, they said, well, it's spreading because these government agents are running all over the place.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and they're they're drive, they're driving in with their cars and you know, and taking it from this place to that place and going to the other place.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that was my point, too, behind the poke and sniff is that that's the method they used to use.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_01: They would literally poke the meat and smell it to see if they could detect it was rancid, and then they'd poke the next one without cleaning it.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: So they literally caused infection from one uh carcass to the next because of their own methodology.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so now we have PCR techniques which are much more sensitive to if you've contaminated something, right?
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: And there's and they're still being unscientific about the way that they're even inspecting.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the the bit they're being very cavalier, uh, being very cavalier about the capacity of nature to morph, adapt, and and and rearrange as as as rapidly as it does.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: In real time.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_00: In real time.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_00: And um yeah, so that that's that's where that's where I am with it.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I I love what you said.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think they should be more of like a health investigator, right?
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like what we do in investigative journalism, actually try to get down to the bottom of it.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_01: And instead of this westernized, like modern approach that we see in medicine and everywhere, uh let's just eradicate it because that's not gonna happen.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_01: You can't just eradicate stuff.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_01: So instead of just trying to eradicate it, they should be spending their time trying to build resilience so that these things don't affect anybody or any animals anymore.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: My goodness.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if if they've got a herd that they find it in, they should go to five adjacent herds.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's gonna be another herd within five miles for sure.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they ought to they ought to pick five, go to them and and look at all those same data points.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how many government cars, how many cars drive in?
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh, what's the, you know, uh they say it's transferred by waterfowl.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, how many waterfowl are on that place?
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I mean, there's there's any number of data points they could use.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it wouldn't take much, Cena.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I know this is this is the kind of research you just you just eat up.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but there it wouldn't, it wouldn't take much for a team of people to assemble a bunch of what are the commonalities for the ones that that get it and the commonalities for the ones that don't.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think they could build a profile there very, very quickly and have a have a reference for um you know for im immunological, you know, immunological function very rapidly.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, very much so.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, we're definitely out of time now.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: We could go on for hours.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I would love it, Joel, if you keep us updated on this very important, pressing uh topic.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I don't see it going away, I see it escalating.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_01: So let's keep our eyes on this and keep everybody uh appraised of what's happening.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and hopefully we can figure out some solutions to this so that they don't take away yet another uh freedom.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly right.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, question have you or do you know anybody who's ever gotten sick from drinking raw milk?
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: Ever.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's a real that's a real simple question.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_00: But uh I think it's worth I think it's worth looking at.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_01: I like that question.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_01: And um just so I don't have to wait to ask you after.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_01: Have do you know anybody who's gotten sick from raw milk?
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: I I can't give you a name, but yes, I have run in I have run into some people who uh over over the years who have so raw milk can be, you know, it it can carry some stuff, okay, especially if the dairy's not very clean.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I've never had that experience, but I have talked to people who who even got from their own cow, you know, and had to okay, we got we gotta be more careful about washing out the bucket, you know, those kinds of things.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, it can.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you've got to be careful, but generally, generally, people who who transact raw, I'm just gonna use the word transact raw milk rather than sell, transact raw milk um are aware of these things.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, look, we you know, we have microscopes now.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_00: We have little you know test strips for you know somatic cell count and things like that.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we have the diagnostics to actually check those things a lot better, and uh, and they tend to be you know more careful than a commercial dairy, not only because they're small, but the cows are healthier and they just have a little more, you know, it's it's a little less uh industrialized.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where we are.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, everybody, thanks for joining us for another episode of Beyond Labels.
• 1:02:49
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• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_00: We'd love to grow our audience, and we thank you for listening with us, and we will look forward to visiting with you again next week on another Beyond Labels podcast.