Latest / Most Things Kenobi - A Star Wars Podcast / Episode 142: Were the Jedi Wrong About Attachment?

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Episode 142: Were the Jedi Wrong About Attachment? · Most Things Kenobi - A Star Wars Podcast

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It's most things Kenobi. We always have the high ground.
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Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of
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Most Things Kenobi, a podcast about Obi Wan Kenobi and all
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things Star Wars. I'm your host, Leanne.
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And I'm your host, Lauren. And this week, we're criticizing
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the Jedi Order, No? Pretty.
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Much. Maybe not.
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We're talking about the topic of attachment and what it means.
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Why were the Jedi so against it? It's it's human.
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Are they dehumanizing individuals by for forbading it?
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Forbidding it? Something.
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That's a word. Forbidding for, bad for.
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Well, I mean they they, they checked it off the list of
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things you you can't have. So we're going to just kind of
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explore that because I find it interesting.
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I've been thinking about the topic of attachment lately and
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in fact attachment everyone has like an attachment style that
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they grow up with. There's like 4 main types,
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Secure, non secure, anxious, you know, all those psychological
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things. Codependent.
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Is that one of those? Yeah, I think that's in there
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somewhere actually. I think it goes like this secure
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attachment, anxious resistant attachment, avoidant attachment,
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and disorganized attachment. So those are the types of
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attachment styles that children show.
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And I want to talk about this because the Jedi specifically
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take children away. They try to take them as early
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as they can, right? That was the problem with
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Anakin. And I didn't even know you were
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gonna take this approach. This is great.
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I've never heard of these attachment styles.
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Oh, well, I I have a type. That's why I know about this,
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'cause my therapist goes over it with me.
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I have anxious. I have an anxious attachment.
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Who knew? But it forms when you're in your
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childhood. It's not an excuse for behavior,
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but it is a way to understand why some people act the way they
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do. My point of bringing this up is
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they don't even get a chance to in the Jedi Order 'cause they
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take them so early. And I wonder, is that part of
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their goal? I mean, if you're trying to
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program behavior, yeah, you wanna take somebody before,
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really before you're I think 7 and definitely before you're 25
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'cause that's when your frontal cortex finishes developing.
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Right. And that was the Trouble with
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Anakin, volume one. The trouble with Anakin is that
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he was too old, quote, UN quote. I mean, we've we've talked about
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this a lot on the show. Did it contribute to his
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attachment? Let me, let me, let me just
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interject this. All of the Jedi were attached in
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some way. I don't give a fuck.
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I think it's a normal human emotion and to cause like
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Buddhism and Zen Buddhism, maybe more specifically, I don't know.
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They teach this like it's not a lack of attachment, but it is
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managing expectations, like a lack of expectation so that you
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don't get so attached to an idea that you are constantly
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disappointed. If you want to talk about that,
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that's like a more healthy, normal sense of lack, quote, UN
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quote of attachment. I feel like what the Jedi were
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teaching was not healthy. No, the in fact the Jedi believe
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in non attachment. That connection is important,
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encouraged, but not to the extent that one foregoes all
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else in pursuit of it. And I can't help but think of
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motherfucking Anakin. Yeah.
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Possession. There's so different ways to
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look at it, right? Because Anakin, like you said,
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is possessive. Yeah, but also he, I would
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imagine, would have anxious attachment considering his
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childhood. But I don't know, 'cause I
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don't, I don't know the official definitions, but to be taken
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from your mother would and like be a slave would probably make
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you an anxious person, I would guess.
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Yes. So Psychology Today, I have the
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definitions up from psychologytoday.com.
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So I mean, if there are any professionals out there, you
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know, don't hold it against us. If these are not exactly
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correct, OK, secure attachment. Children with secure attachment
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may be distressed upon separation but warmly welcome
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the caregiver back through eye contact and hug seeking.
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Anxious attachment describes a child who is frightened by
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separation and continues to display anxious behavior once
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the caregiver returns. Avoidant attachment denotes a
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child who reacts fairly calmly to a parent separation and does
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not embrace their return. And disorganized attachment is
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manifest in odd or ambivalent behavior towards the caregiver
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upon return, approaching, then turning away from or even
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hitting the caregiver, and maybe the result of childhood trauma.
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So it's it's just the way of their how secure they are as a
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child. My dog has the second one.
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Anxious resistant attachment. Well, me and Luna are one in the
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same. Yeah, it's just it's interesting
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because the topic of attachment is so crazy.
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I get it and I don't because of the Buddhist thing that you were
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talking about. In fact, I have a note here.
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It says the Jedi trying to, you know, teach this thing about
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attachment. They wanted to teach that by
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accepting that the universe is not there for them to control,
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but to understand and nurture, then they are constantly making
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choices for the betterment of those around them, instead of
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simply thinking of themselves. Yes, which?
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Which I'm wholly here for. Yeah, that's very noble.
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Like. Change is a part of life.
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You you can't resist it. You have to move with it.
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You have to accept it's. You can't control anything
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besides yourself. Right.
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And then I think of Obi Wan and Satine.
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He was in full control of himself, cared deeply for her,
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but was also allowed to let her go, Not control her, not try to
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control the situation. It is what it is.
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You've had feelings, but he had a job too.
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Right, I do. Isn't there a line that I think
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Anakin says that they're allowed to love, they're just not
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supposed to feel an attachment that would distract them from
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their duty? And I've kind of played around
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with this idea in my fix because it is something that happens
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with Obi Wan. It's the teen Obi Wan is
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attached to her in a healthy way, like you just said, where
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he's able to let her go and do her thing and he's going to stay
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a Jedi. He's made that decision.
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But because of the attachment, Moll then uses her against him.
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And so there's that other side to the coin where attachment can
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put the people you're attached to in danger, because they can
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be used against you, because you have this human nature to want
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to, like, save the ones you love.
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Which is what happens with Anakin.
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The Jedi have taken on this mantle of the betterment for all
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as opposed to themselves. But they're humans or well,
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yeah, not they're not all humans necessarily, right.
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But you know what I'm saying? So they have emotion and they
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have attachment and they have love.
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So it puts them in this position of being able to manipulate them
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if they unless they're completely cold hearted and
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unmoved by a threat against somebody they love.
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What's her name? Which one you got to narrow it
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down, Adia Gal, What is it not Adia Galia.
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Oh, God bless her. No, the other one Luminar,
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Luminar. Why can't I ever remember her
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name and I'm always ready to shit talk her?
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Terrible. I don't know.
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She seems very detached, but she probably hasn't had anyone
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killed in front of her either in the way that Maul killed Satine.
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I guess, yeah. I mean at the in the the
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genotion arc where her Padawan and then Ahsoka, they get
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trapped right away. She's ready to just let go
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without even trying really to rescue them.
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So, like, Anakin's one extreme of being, like, we got to do it
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now, and she's the other extreme of, well, they're gone.
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I wonder if that was done on purpose to show there's two
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polar opposites in a situation like this and no, no one is
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completely correct. Yeah, 'cause I've always
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wondered, and I've heard this said in the Star Wars community,
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that maybe the whole point of the prequels was to prove that
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the Jedi were too attached funny to too attached to their ideas,
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you know? Like the, the, the whole.
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Point George Lucas was trying to make was that it didn't work and
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that's why Luke works. But now that's kind of been
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tossed on its ear by stuff Disney has done.
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So I don't really know if that's still something you could argue,
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but I would because we've talked about Luke's form of attachment
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in the past and how it did not get in his way.
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No 'cause he was ready to. He was ready to die, whether his
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father chose him or not. You know, so many words.
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Whether it worked out or not, he was, he was.
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He went in there with a choice made like, OK, if this doesn't
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work out, I'm gonna die. I've accepted it.
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Yeah. He's not gonna send force
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lightning at Palpatine or anything, you know?
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One, his love for Leia and Han didn't stop him from doing his
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duty. You know, he is that moment in
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Return of the Jedi where he's talking to Leia and he tells
10:33
her, like, you have to keep going, even if I don't make it
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back. And when I was a kid, I didn't
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realize he meant that I if I die, I just thought he was like,
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if I can't get back to you, yeah.
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Yeah, if I can't fly through all that debris.
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Yeah, exactly. From the all the explosion.
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I didn't realize. He meant like, if I die, you
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keep being strong and you keep going.
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I have to go do this like I have to.
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My love for you is not going to stop me from doing that.
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So that, I think, is the healthier perspective that
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George Lucas was trying to teach.
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And so when people hold up the Jedi as like, the best thing
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ever, I think maybe the point of the prequel supposed to show
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that even though they were noble, that extremism ultimately
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kind of led to their vulnerability.
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Possibly. You just reminded me of The Last
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Jedi. That is exactly what he told
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Leia and then went on to do. And she had to live without him
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afterwards. You know, after The Last Jedi.
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But you know that that made me think of that moment.
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And now that I think about it further, Leia is kind of non
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attached to her son in a way that she doesn't let Ben's
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behavior, we'll say, cause her to lose sight of, you know,
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what's in front of her. It says here non attachment
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allows for empathy without being obsessive.
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It allows for compassion and love without being so caught up
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in how it makes you feel over other people.
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It leads to a selfless approach to feelings and a consideration
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for others that detachment does not allow for interesting, which
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is ponderous because it's not saying being detached but just
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non attached, which the Jedi believe in.
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Connection is important, encouraged, but not to the
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extent that one forgoes all else in pursuit of it, which
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literally Anakin forgoes everything like everything.
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And then when Leia excuse me when Padme dies, he then sets
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his sights on Obi Wan. Mm hmm.
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And Palpatine has to be like, come back here and focus on the
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universe or the Galaxy around us.
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Quit focusing on this one, dude. You have a grudge against.
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That's true. It's interesting.
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Anakin becomes obsessed. Insanely, it's easy.
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Yeah, it's like he's possessive in in a way that does get scary.
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As we've discussed in The Clone Wars, By the end, he does some,
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like, really creepy stuff with Rush, Clovis and all that stuff.
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But you know, he goes from being attached to hyper attached to
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obsessively possessive to dangerous.
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And it's a pattern of escalating behavior.
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But that's not saying that everyone who's attached is going
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to follow that path, you know? That's correct.
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And so I think Anakin is an anomaly, honestly, because
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probably of his upbringing. I think so too.
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So I guess if he was taken as a super young child and avoided
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attaching, you know, imprinting on his mother, maybe he wouldn't
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have had that obsessive behavior.
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But again that's the kind of question is it doesn't matter
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like the whole story is that that's the point of the story.
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So if you. Right.
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We're not even. We're not even counting the
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wills in this. Right, exactly.
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I mean, shit, but I, I, you know, I think of Ahsoka and
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she's fairly not detached. She's she follows the practice
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of non attachment. She has tons of empathy.
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She is always selflessly trying to help whoever's in need, and I
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think her one attachment to Anakin was that was it.
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That taught her the lesson. She learned the lesson Anakin
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didn't and moved on from it. It feels like an empty life.
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She has friends, you know, but they're always.
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I guess that's maybe that's OK. Obi Wan seemed so lonely, but he
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also seemed OK like, 'cause he chose that.
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Yeah, I think it's it's different for each character.
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I feel like for Ahsoka, I feel sad about it.
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For Ahsoka, because she had such warmth and connection with
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Anakin and Rex, right? And Oh my God, I forgot about
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Rex. I'm going to forget.
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About Rex and I feel like she is practicing non attachment
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because she was hurt so she's like not.
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I see where the vulnerability is and I'm not letting that in
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again. And Obi Wan, it was kind of the
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other way around, where he was attached, but now he's a hermit.
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And so like I mean. He has a mission to accomplish
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so and he was he was kind of denying that he was attached all
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along. So I think it was actually like
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everyone noticed but him, you know?
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And it was like a big shock when when it all kind of blew up in
16:02
his face and Luke became like, if you want to follow the, the
16:07
Disney plot line that they had for Luke, he isolated himself.
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I know, like, I don't either, 'cause, as we've said, like it
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it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Yeah. Let's not even.
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For a moment, let us let us consider.
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Right. But so, like, if you want to
16:23
look at the path that he did end up taking, that was terrible.
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I think he was in a lot of pain in his isolation.
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He he was like depressed and decrepit and angry, and you
16:37
could see that in the bitterness when he was dealing with Ray.
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So I don't think his lack of attachment served him.
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Yeah, yeah. But I also feel like that entire
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plot was not Luke at all, so. Well, that's why I'm not saying
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anything. Right.
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Like, I can argue what was there, but I don't think it was
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done correctly, honestly. Yeah, it's yes.
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So I want to ask the question going back to Ahsoka, let's
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evaluate her attachment to the Jedi Order pre trial.
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She had formed some sort of belonging, sense of belonging in
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a group of people she felt cared for by.
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She respected, they respected her, they gave her a lot of
17:25
responsibility and they trusted her with it and then they kind
17:32
of betrayed her through everything that took place with
17:36
her leaving eventually now does that does the topic of
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attachment. Is that where it becomes
17:45
dangerous, that even in that predicament, your sense of
17:50
belonging, like secure attachment, avoiding all this
17:53
stuff? You know, your sense of
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belonging. You're turned away at that
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point. You feel a sense of betrayal.
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She did. That's why she chose to leave.
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Does it dictate your Should it dictate your behavior?
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In that respect, she was right to feel wronged by them.
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Yes, I think so. I mean, I think so.
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I think that she was right to feel wronged.
18:15
Absolutely. But if she would have had no
18:17
attachment at all, she would she have just said OK, I'm out or
18:21
OK, I'm gonna let you treat me like this and I'll stay like you
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have to have self respect, right?
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But am I? Am I straying from the topic of
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attachment? No, I don't think so.
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I think it's actually complicating it more because
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you're it's a really good point I think because you're
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practicing non attachment, right?
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You're trying. You're you're a young Padawad,
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and you're doing your best, but you assume that the Jedi will at
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least be your family and have your back.
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And so when they are. Anakin was.
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Anakin did. But he didn't represent the Jedi
18:54
on a larger scale. And and we knew.
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We know that. But maybe Ahsoka was kind of
18:59
putting blinders up to that. When it comes down to it, why
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was she surprised that the Council was not attached?
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They were so detached from her that they were willing to accept
19:10
a possibility of treason, which is absurd.
19:14
It's. Just insane, yeah.
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And what we've discussed in the past, that Obi Wan of all
19:21
people, didn't speak up for her, which wouldn't even have been
19:24
attachment, it would have just been justice.
19:27
Facts. He could have presented facts
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based on his experience fighting with alongside her.
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Exactly. So yeah, But that's.
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Brutal. I would like to commend Ahsoka
19:39
on not letting her attachment to Anakin make her stay in an
19:44
environment she felt was toxic. Yeah, that was the most mature
19:48
decision ever. Right, right.
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To understand you're not being respected or treated right, and
19:55
even if it's the hardest thing you have to do, you leave that.
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Yeah. Job, relationship, family, even
20:04
you remove yourself from whatever toxic environment there
20:08
is out of self respect for yourself.
20:11
And Ahsoka did that, so in turn her non attachment was a slap
20:17
back at their non attachment. So like do 2, how does all this
20:23
work 'cause it seems like 2 ends of a magnet and they never
20:27
connect. You know the two opposing, they
20:29
never come together. Which is why I wonder still if
20:34
that, like I come back to that argument, is the whole point
20:36
that that the extremism made it impossible for them to actually
20:42
function properly as a as an organization.
20:45
And it's also no wonder after that that Ahsoka though she can
20:49
get you know, invested in the ghost crew and and still, like
20:53
Rex is with her, willing to die right to the end.
20:56
No wonder that girl would have problems allowing anyone to get
21:00
close to her emotionally. Right.
21:04
Yes, I would put a wall up. Absolutely.
21:07
And I guess part of the the lesson in the Ahsoka show,
21:12
right, is that she can kind of maybe let that wall down a
21:17
little bit and choose to live and all that and like allow
21:20
people in. But that would be so difficult
21:24
after living with that pain for so long, and it would become
21:27
habitual. You know, it's like a pattern
21:29
now. How would she ever?
21:32
Just. Break it down without help, I
21:34
don't know. Again, therapy.
21:37
Right. Yeah, it's a thing.
21:39
It exists. It kind of comes down to not
21:47
putting one person or relationship above your
21:51
responsibilities to all, because everything is transient.
21:56
Which I could see where apathy would come in, it would, it
22:02
would kind of creep in. Well, I can't control anything,
22:05
so why bother? I mean there's that's our risk
22:08
too. Sure.
22:11
And I even think in the other extreme 'cause they say that
22:15
this non attachment allows for empathy, right?
22:18
So this always reminds me of a story from Tales of Beetle the
22:26
Bard. I don't know if you read those,
22:27
but it was oh, from Harry Potter.
22:30
Yeah, I know it. I know it.
22:31
I haven't read it. Yeah, they're really cute.
22:33
I would recommend it. If you're a Harry Potter fan,
22:35
they're very cute. So it's a collection of fairy
22:37
tales from Harry Potter, and one of them is called the Warlocks
22:41
Hairy Heart. And I've.
22:43
Only read this once, but it really stuck with me 'cause I
22:46
think it's so brilliant and it was this warlock who I think he
22:50
was heartbroken. So what he did was take out his
22:52
own heart and lock it in a cage so that it could never be heard
22:56
again and never be broken again. I I feel that.
23:01
And so the heart became weird, like it grew hair and became
23:06
hard, like stone. And then it made it impossible
23:11
for him to have empathy. So to protect himself by
23:16
protecting himself, he made himself inhuman.
23:18
Quote, quote, UN quote, you know.
23:20
So I feel like the Jedi have this practice of a lack of
23:24
attachment, and so their hearts grow cold like stone.
23:28
And when they need empathy, like for Ahsoka, it's not there.
23:34
And they're not even aware that it's not there anymore because
23:38
they're so, you know, tied to this idea.
23:42
That's interesting because that you were describing that and all
23:45
I could think of was Vader, but he he literally locked his heart
23:50
away. Yeah.
23:52
So he would never have to deal with the hurt that he felt after
23:55
turning and losing Padme and all this failure.
23:59
Replaced it with anger instead. Yeah, so that's the more
24:03
extreme. But you're you're absolutely
24:05
right. You just go cold if you don't
24:07
keep some connection. They say you have to take the
24:12
good with the bad, which is what we always say If you want to
24:15
love, you have to be willing to be hurt.
24:19
Mm hmm. Because you can't have one
24:21
without the other. So that means.
24:23
Yes, light and dark. So if you lock your heart away
24:26
so it can never be hurt, you will never feel joy either.
24:30
There's a Springsteen lyric for this.
24:33
I know there is. Hang on.
24:35
It's from the song Human Touch. Oh girl, that feeling of safety
24:39
you prize. Well, it comes at a hard, hard
24:42
price. You can't shut off the risk and
24:45
the pain without losing the love that remains.
24:50
We're all riders on this train, OK?
24:53
But it's true. It's what you just said.
24:57
You can't shut out the risk and the pain without losing the love
25:00
that remains. Yeah, you got to do it.
25:03
And I think that happens naturally, so that as you shut
25:07
off your attachment, you do naturally lose empathy, I think.
25:14
And I think that's the ultimate downfall of the Jedi.
25:18
Oh yeah, well, the whole point of this episode is to talk about
25:21
was it too extreme? To.
25:23
Talk about. But on the flip side, one of my
25:25
favorite quotes in all of Star Wars is spoken by Yoda.
25:29
Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.
25:33
And I've been thinking of this quote a lot lately in my own
25:38
personal life. How do you train yourself to let
25:43
go of everything you fear to lose?
25:46
It's hard. It's it comes with the
25:50
understanding, like we talked about already, that everything
25:53
is transient. No one lives forever.
25:56
Nothing lasts forever. You could look at that as a
25:58
depressed, you know, in a depressed point of view.
26:01
Or you could treat it as live in the moment, enjoy what you have
26:06
while you have it. Count each blessing.
26:08
There's a Japanese phrase and I I don't know what exactly, so
26:12
forgive me if I butcher it, but it's something like all leaves
26:14
must fall and it's like, so you must enjoy the beauty of autumn
26:19
because every leaf will lose, you know, be lost off the tree
26:24
and like the cherry blossom is fleeting, so you love it while
26:28
it's there. It's so beautiful and magical,
26:29
but it will go away and it's supposed to increase the value
26:35
of that time because it's limited.
26:37
If it was unlimited, you would just take it for granted, which
26:40
people do anyway. I think I agree it's the hardest
26:43
lesson, honestly. I don't know how, but I know
26:48
that you should. I just don't know how.
26:51
Yoda. We need more.
26:52
We need more Yoda. Yeah.
26:56
Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.
26:58
OK, cool. Tell me what to do with that
27:00
motion. Yeah, I know.
27:05
I mean, my my parents have all, both of them have lost both of
27:08
their parents. And my mom has always said that
27:11
she's still to this day, it it hurts her when she thinks of her
27:15
father, but she tries to remember that like she was
27:18
really lucky that he was her father and that they had so many
27:21
good years together. And I I feel that with like even
27:25
my uncle that I lost last year. Like every time I think of him I
27:28
cry. But like, the times we had
27:31
together, it was all good, every single thing.
27:34
And so even though I'm sad, at least I have that joy.
27:39
Yeah, like grief can take on so many different forms.
27:43
It's really hard, I think, to to not get attached, especially
27:47
when you love something so much. Like my dog, my God, I.
27:51
Can't. Yes, I can't not be attached to
27:55
my dog. Well, no one's asking you to not
27:58
be attached to your dog. Clarence is to my right snoring
28:04
right now. Hopefully it's not on the.
28:09
People love our animals, so. Yeah, they always.
28:12
They've actually requested ASMR of my cat, but that's what they
28:15
heard him snore. They said he needed AC PAP.
28:18
So maybe I'll just not do that, but I want to.
28:24
I wanted to say to your point about losing someone, even if
28:28
it's symbolically because I've lost friends.
28:31
I have. I mean, I have memories of
28:34
things that have since been tainted, and I my memory, I
28:40
choose to look at the memories I had at the time when it was
28:44
great to me. Things happen thereafter out of
28:48
my control kind of changes the scenery of my memories, but you
28:52
have to hold on to what you remember about that time.
28:56
It's really hard and there's a lot of changes going on in like
29:02
in the in the realm of my friends right now, I feel like
29:05
there's a collective shift in many of my friends.
29:09
We're all growing up at the age of 40 and it's it's strange for
29:13
me and that's why I've been thinking, train yourself to let
29:17
go of everything you fear to lose.
29:19
I'm afraid of losing something that's been very consistently
29:23
the same and that goes back to change.
29:27
It's the ever transient nature, you got to let it flow, you
29:31
can't get attached. And so that's kind of why I
29:34
wanted to talk about it, because I've been, I've been pondering
29:37
it quite a bit lately. I have too, oddly enough.
29:41
Which is funny because we haven't even talked about this
29:43
this, the two. Space Twins.
29:45
Right. Well, and I I have a little deck
29:49
that I pull cards out of just to kind of think about for the day.
29:52
And one of them was the river. And I kept that for myself for
29:57
the week to just look at it. And it was because you need to
29:59
flow like a river, and like a river will go over rocks and
30:03
bend around logs and just keep on going.
30:06
And it doesn't fight back. It goes where the flow takes it.
30:11
And yes, you can make impact on your life, you can manifest and
30:15
make dreams come true and all that.
30:17
But you also have to learn to allow things.
30:22
I think the most pain we endure is when we resist what's
30:26
happening. That is, and that comes from
30:28
fear. Yes.
30:31
So if you're afraid, you resist, which makes it harder and more
30:36
painful. You wanna tighten your grip so
30:39
you don't lose it 'cause you're afraid, Anakin, But you have to
30:43
be like the river, you know? I love rivers.
30:46
Right, you too. I love them for their natural
30:50
beauty, the life they give, the terrain they chisel.
30:55
But it's the lesson they teach. Like you said, something I've
31:00
never been able to do is flow with, you know, go with the flow
31:06
like a river. You need to be more like Luke.
31:09
I do. Luke is a river.
31:10
That is, that is, that's the fucking goal of everything in
31:14
life is to be more like Luke, even if you do compare them to
31:17
LaGuardia Airport. If you don't know what we're
31:26
talking about, it's in an episode.
31:29
With Leanne's mom. Go.
31:30
Listen. With my mother, go listen.
31:33
It's ridiculous. But I think I would aspire to
31:38
just learn to love, learn to respect, and also be able to
31:44
accept whatever comes as gracefully as possible.
31:50
I think Luke exemplifies that. I think Obi Wan does too.
31:53
I think so too. Yeah, I shit, man.
31:55
His is, his is. He's got a longer lifetime of
32:00
accumulated instances where Luke was so young when he had to step
32:04
up to the plate. You know and.
32:05
Yeah, and he was. He Luke was kind of like forced
32:08
into it, and he didn't resist it.
32:10
Like, he just really let it flow.
32:12
And it wasn't painless, that's for sure.
32:15
But Obi Wan, I think, was more in the camp of like, I'm doing
32:20
everything right. Like I'm following the rules.
32:22
I'm doing what I'm supposed to do.
32:23
Oh my God, my life exploded. Why does this shit keep
32:27
happening to me? Well, I guess I'll just carry
32:29
on. I mean, that's a good, that's a
32:31
good way to be. Yeah, and with with.
32:33
Also a really important lesson, which is probably maybe a little
32:37
side tangent here, but that like just because you're doing
32:40
everything right does not mean bad things won't happen.
32:44
That's right. You just have to accept and deal
32:47
with it when it does and do it as gracefully.
32:51
Yeah, as possible. Which one does like the most
32:55
humane, gracious acceptance of the most deep trauma and pain?
33:00
Yeah. I would say I know she's, I know
33:04
she's not a Jedi, but she was with one and that's Hera.
33:09
If there's anyone who has an and Leia kind of a Jedi.
33:15
More sensitive. Yeah, right, so I can put her in
33:19
that camp. I I mean, she she didn't even
33:21
have to like, OK, wait, I'm bringing up something.
33:25
She turned away from that life because she feared perhaps her
33:30
attachment would lead her down the path of her biological
33:34
father. Very interesting.
33:36
So she was smart enough to recognize.
33:40
I don't know there. This is not easy.
33:42
Again, we come with questions and leave with more questions,
33:49
but I find it interesting. I will, I will encourage all
33:53
comments from whoever is listening to this on your take
33:56
because I think this is one of these topics we could go over
33:59
and over and over and think of more instances and more examples
34:03
and still keep going over it and never quite come to a
34:05
conclusion. Yeah.
34:07
And maybe, you know, maybe there is no right or wrong answer per
34:11
SE, but I want to ask you this, did you get the sense that Obi
34:15
Wan was attached to Qui Gun? Yes, but he was younger when he
34:22
was attached to him and you know the moment where they're in the
34:27
room, they're they're in the council room and and qui gun
34:30
just like, well, I'll take the boy as the pad one and he's
34:33
like, the fuck. Yeah.
34:35
That was his attachment, kind of rearing its head in like the the
34:40
calmest way Anakin would have had a fucking outburst.
34:46
Well, he did when Mace was like, Nope, you know, and then he
34:50
killed a bunch of Padawans, so. It's unfair, yeah.
34:56
So like Obi Wan had a had a like a excuse me you know, and I I
35:01
think he was attached, but I think he reigned it in.
35:04
Yeah, I bet he probably didn't even know he was attached.
35:08
Just like Anakin. Well, I think that's why.
35:11
Like when he's he's younger at that moment and that's why I
35:14
wanted to like say that he had time to think back on it and
35:18
ponder it and be like, OK, I probably shouldn't have acted
35:21
like that. Qui Gon obviously didn't mean it
35:24
this way or that way or whatever.
35:26
He he thought about it a little bit more than, say, his padawan.
35:31
Yes, that sounds right. You know, what do you think?
35:37
I think you're right. Honestly, I I kind of feel like
35:40
I'm not sure. But after what you just said, I
35:43
don't think you would have had that visible reaction if you
35:46
didn't feel betrayed somehow. And you wouldn't feel betrayed
35:49
if you didn't have an an attachment, or at least a desire
35:53
to prove yourself to that. Person Well, you've written Qui
35:57
Gon and Obi Wan. Have you ever thought about this
36:00
as you you wrote about them together?
36:02
Yeah, and the thick I'm gonna release soon.
36:07
Ish is about what happens. So if it went after Qui, Gon
36:11
dies and I yes, like, I play with the idea of attachment and
36:17
grief and how like you need to grieve.
36:21
But if you're not allowed to be attached, that grief isn't
36:24
allowed to be expressed properly, and it can, like, mess
36:27
you up. Yeah, grief is a different.
36:29
Maybe we should talk about grief at some point, because it's kind
36:32
of like it's like a side tangent.
36:34
It's like the sister or the cousin, the third cousin twice
36:38
removed from attachment. Yeah, I think grieving is a
36:44
another human, totally normal, sometimes, usually healthy
36:50
response. I think Open One's so
36:52
interesting with this topic in particular because he's such a
36:56
good Jedi and he did practice some really overt non
37:01
attachment, which is why I think like his love for Anakin was
37:07
yes, so devastating. And his words to Anakin when he
37:11
said he loved him, that's attachment.
37:13
But he was still able to walk away.
37:17
Right. But like.
37:19
Oh my gosh. But.
37:20
Let's take, let's take into consideration the Kenobi show,
37:24
where he truly does walk away from Vader like that.
37:28
Was him leaving that where it lied like that?
37:33
Was it? It was such a good moment.
37:37
Talk about taking your power back and leaving the other
37:40
person just like seething in their race.
37:46
Bang up job done by both actors to to truly convey the sadness
37:51
of it all. But.
37:53
You see the change in Obi Wan how?
37:56
How very attached and disappointed and heartbroken and
37:59
betrayed he was by what Anakin had become.
38:04
And then just how detached he became.
38:07
I mean, he was crying. He was feeling through shit.
38:10
He'd held on for four fucking years.
38:15
But he finally, like, let that go.
38:16
He grieved long enough. I'm sure the the grief led him
38:20
to walking away from it and being OK with it at that point.
38:24
It's basically what Bale says to him when he comes to everyone's
38:28
cave, which I love, that he was able to find out where his cave
38:31
was and he said Anakin is gone, like it's time for you to move
38:36
on. You did what you could, there's
38:39
nothing more you can do, so why don't you just move on?
38:42
It's time. You know, well at that point
38:46
he's he's berating himself. He's thinking what could I have
38:49
done? What was, why was it my fault?
38:51
All the things that I'm sure Ahsoka also thought like had I
38:55
only done this, Had I only said that?
38:57
Had I only been there, You know, things it the growth comes after
39:01
you grieve and let go of that. So those two characters got to
39:05
do that and then Anakin later as Vader finally did it with Luke,
39:10
you know, so they all get their redemption arc.
39:13
Well, not that Ahsoka and everyone needed redeemed, but
39:17
they kind of from themselves, from their own guilt.
39:20
Yeah, to themselves. I think they needed it, yeah.
39:23
Even though we can absolve them because we see the full picture
39:26
with outside eyes. When it's you, you just punish
39:30
yourself, I think. I think we all do that, yeah.
39:35
This is such an interesting stuff.
39:36
It's so. Interesting.
39:39
I love kind of digging into this stuff.
39:41
And I know that attachment, the psychological side of it, is so,
39:46
I mean, starts as a child and then just continues.
39:48
But the Jedis thought of it, you know, accepting that there's no
39:53
control in the universe and you can't, you can't just latch onto
39:57
one thing and one person and one ideal, you know, look at where
40:01
it took so many good. I mean Dooku.
40:06
Yeah. You know, it's just.
40:09
It's the path to the dark side. Train yourself to let go of it.
40:16
What else does he say? I don't know.
40:18
Come on, Yoda. Give me.
40:19
Give me all you got. Oh, here we go.
40:24
Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed.
40:26
That is. Train yourself to let go of
40:28
everything you fear to lose greed and jealousy.
40:31
Attachment leads to jealousy. Hey, Clovis.
40:37
Hey, Damn Greed. Yeah, these are these are our
40:45
the oh the vices, the the Vice episodes.
40:49
Seven. What is it?
40:50
7 deadly sins or something like that, Yeah.
40:53
Yeah. Oh, if you guys haven't listened
40:55
to that episode, go check it out because.
40:57
I loved those episodes, the vices and the virtues.
41:00
Mm hmm. That was fun.
41:02
Damn. And it all comes back to that.
41:06
I mean, I'm attached to you, so I'm OK with that.
41:09
I'm attached to you too. Yay.
41:11
I'm codependent with my dog, which is probably unhealthy.
41:15
And she's OK with that as well. She is OK with it.
41:18
She's codependent as well. We'll talk about Codependency in
41:22
another episode next week. No, I'm just kidding.
41:33
So we kind of already asked you let us know your thoughts on
41:36
attachment. What do you think?
41:38
Do you agree that attachment's a bad thing?
41:40
Were the Jedi right? Were they too extreme?
41:43
Was it all? Did it all kind of play out the
41:46
way it was supposed to? This is a deep topic.
41:49
We can talk about it for weeks at a time, so sound off in the
41:53
comments. Hit us up on social media,
41:56
respond via Spotify, and just let us know we'd love to hear
42:01
your theories. Next week we are going to change
42:05
gears a little bit. We are going to talk about Leia
42:09
the Hutz Slayer. Yeah.
42:11
Really excited. Me too.
42:15
She is the Hut. Slayer, she damn it.
42:17
And I saw a post where someone said that it's not talked about
42:21
enough and it's not ever talked about that she killed Jabba the
42:25
Hutt, who was her father's slaver.
42:28
So we're going to dive into that, give some Leah some love,
42:32
because she's a fucking bad ass. It's going to be awesome.
42:34
I can't wait. Join us back.
42:36
Me neither. Thank you so much for joining us
42:39
here on The Most Things Kenobi Podcast.
42:42
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42:44
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42:50
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43:07
So until next time, Myspace Twin, may the Force be with you.
43:12
Always.