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U.S. Supreme Court rules Trump has immunity for official, not private acts · Kvetch & Release

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  Welcome back to AM eight hundred CKLW. As Canadians were getting ready yesterday to
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  head to Canada Day parades across the country, the Supreme Court of the United
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  States of America released a ruling and found that former President Donald Trump cannot be
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  prosecuted for any actions within his constitutional powers as president, but can be for
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  private acts. It was a landmark ruling and I'm excited to have it broken
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  down for us because it's a little bit complicated with some moving parts. Joining
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  me to discuss is doctor Stephen J. Farnsworth, Professor of Political Science and
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  International Affairs and Director Center for Leadership and Media Studies at the University of Mary
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  Washington. How are you doing, doctor, great, how are you doing
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  well? Thank you so much for joining me here. This seems like it
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  is a very big ruling with lots of implications. Can you break it down
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  from your perspective? Police, Yeah, First of all, from the macro
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  perspective, it's important to recognize that this is probably the biggest decision regarding presidential
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  power since the Watergate era. What you have in this decision is a carve
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  out, if you will, of a significant amount of what a president can
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  do that is effectively an official act and therefore beyond the reach of the legal
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  system. This very controversial decision does not end the possibility that Trump will be
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  prosecuted for things related to January sixth, but certain things are going to be
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  off the table. For example, if the president the president's conversations with the
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  people in the Justice Department, the top lawyers for the government, even if
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  he was advising them to do things. But there are still those areas that
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  are unofficial acts as defined by the court, that will be prosecutable. The
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  challenge, of course, is trying to figure out where that line is between
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  what's official and what's unofficial, and that's going to be a subject of a
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  lot of litigation going forward. And that's why there simply seems pretty much zero
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  chance that the January sixth part of the charges against Trump can proceed before the
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  election in November. And that's obviously a very big deal. We're seeing some
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  of those implications right now as a result of this ruling yesterday already starting to
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  on trickle. But what does that mean for American voters to not have a
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  resolution before this upcoming election. Well, I think it's a significant problem,
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  and there are many reasons why the voters won't get a choice in the wake
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  of a court ruling on these matters, because you know, ultimately, the
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  real evidence that comes out in a trial will give people a sense of whether
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  or not they find this a political prosecution on the one hand, or they
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  find that Donald Trump really is guilty of crimes. With this decision by the
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  Supreme Court, there's a delay, but there's not just a delay because of
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  the decision. There's a delay because of the way the whole process has worked.
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  Our system, our legal system in the United States, is not designed
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  to move quickly, and we see that over and over again. Donald Trump,
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  with every legal action that he's taken, has tried to push this trial
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  past the twenty twenty four election, and many judges have been willing to allow
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  him the kind of time frame, the very slow time frame that he wants.
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  The Supreme Court could have made a decision much faster than it did.
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  In this particular case. The hearings were in April. We are looking at
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  a decision that came out the first of July. There is, of course,
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  all the other issues with respect to presidential schedule. I mean, how
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  can a president presidential candidate run for president and be in the court. We
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  saw it during the New York State trial that basically Donald Trump was off the
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  campaign trail for a month during the case of that trial. And so we're
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  really looking at a situation where the process is not moving very quickly. It's
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  really through the looking glass. I mean, I don't think our founders ever
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  anticipated anticipated a scenario where a presidential candidate would be in the middle of criminal
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  trials while he's running for president. I think the founders would have imagined that
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  voters have more sense than to nominate someone who is facing all these criminal charges
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  in the middle of an election. But there we are. I'm seeing a
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  lot of people on social media, and when I say that, I don't
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  mean just average people, commentators, pundits, people that are in politics who
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  are lamenting this decision, saying that this is going to elevate the presidency up
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  to that of a king or potentially worse. Is that just being hyperbolic or
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  is there actual sentiment to that. Well, I think that's a genuine concern.
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  But we really don't know how this is all going to play out until
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  we start seeing how the courts are willing to draw the lines with respect to
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  what an unofficial act is versus an official act. For example, in this
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  case, one of the things that Donald Trump did, or is alleged to
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  have done, is to set up sets of phony electors to try to manipulate
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  the process of January sixth. We also know that from what Michael Pens has
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  said, that Donald Trump really pressured him to try to overturn the results of
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  the election, even though all the courts had ruled that Joe Biden is the
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  legitimate winner of the twenty twenty election, even though all the state governors and
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  the legislators deciding who their electors were going to be all settled this case and
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  that Donald Trump had lost. Donald Trump, without any evidence or without any
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  support from these matters by the court system or by the legal system the political
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  system, he still nevertheless proceeds now being a candidate for president an unofficial act,
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  even when you are the president. I think that's a line that could
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  be drawn that could still make the question of Donald Trump facing charges a real
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  one on this matter of January sixth. But I would say one other things.
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  It's also important to note that some of the other charges against the president
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  have nothing to do with what he did in office, but whether what he
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  did before he was in office, and we're after if you're thinking about the
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  mar A Lago documents case, for example, none of that is really affected
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  by this Supreme Court ruling because this had to do with Donald Trump allegedly taking
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  documents and keeping them from the government as a former president, where he doesn't
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  have the kind of executive privilege that we're talking about in this opinion. So
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  if this is a win then for Donald Trump at the moment, is this
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  necessarily a win for the Republicans moving towards an election or could this galvanize some
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  on the left. Well, I think that one of the things that we
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  know when we look at American politics these days is that almost everybody is very,
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  very partisan, and in the same way that Republicans overlook the convictions of
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  Donald Trump, are dismissed them, most of them as unimportant. I think
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  the Democrats, according to the early polling, are overlooking Joe Biden's performance on
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  the debate stage and questions about his suitability for another four years. So it
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  seems to me that a lot of these things that we think might make a
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  big difference don't seem to make a big difference when we actually look at all
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  those voters who've committed to vote for the Democratic side or the Republican side,
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  no matter what seems to come down the pike. The reality that is perhaps
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  more concerning to the campaigns is whether or not people are going to just tune
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  out and say, you know what, I don't want to participate. Neither
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  of these candidates is appealing to me, and so I'm not going to be
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  a part of it. In the United States has relatively low voter turnout compared
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  to most of the advanced Western democracies. More people turn out in Canada,
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  Britain, France, Germany for their elections in here in the United States,
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  and a bad situation may very well get worse when you have two candidates who
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  are not all that popular competing against each other, and the liabilities against them
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  seem to be growing on both sides as the weeks pass. It seems like
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  removing some of the guardrails that exist. For example, a criminal prosecution could
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  embolden a president in ways that are really unexpected. Are you at all concerned
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  about that? Well, I think a lot depends on who the individual is.
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  I mean, Joe Biden gave a public address last night in the United
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  States talking about the Supreme Court ruling and saying that he is not going to
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  be using powers that he considers beyond what a president should have. And so
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  if Joe Biden as president, I'm not sure that the Supreme Court decision makes
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  much of a difference, at least in terms of his commitment to a vision
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  of more limited executive power than the Supreme Court seems ready to authorize. I
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  think when you talk about Donald Trump, you might see something very different if
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  he becomes president again. He was stymied in some of the things that he
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  wanted to do by members of his team, his members of his cabinet,
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  and other people around him during his first term. My guess is if there's
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  a second Donald Trump term, that he will not choose people who will be
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  as unwilling to support what Donald Trump wants to do. He'll choose more loyal
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  people the second time around. And with the Supreme Court decision as it is,
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  well, I think that Donald Trump can feel a little less at risk
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  there would have been the case if the decision had been more limiting with respect
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  to presidential power. Do you think that it's going to change international relations between
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  the United States and other countries' allies because of this change in the presidency.
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  Might countries be more willing to try to curry direct favor with a president as
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  a result of this or is it too early to even begin talking about that.
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  Well, I think that's a real possibility. I think that one of
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  the things that you see with respect to international relations now is a great enthusiasm
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  for Donald Trump among more authoritarian countries and a great enthusiasm for Joe Biden among
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  more Western democratically oriented countries like those in NATO and the G seven. You
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  really do see this distinction that's going on. But that's nothing new, right,
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  I mean, if you look at the way in which George W.
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  Bush was viewed versus Barack Obama, you see the same kinds of delineations,
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  where countries like Russia and China may be more pro Trump, but countries like
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  Canada and France and Britain and Germany may be more pro Democratic Biden or Hillary
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  Clinton or Obama, as the case may be. What is different, though,
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  is the extent to which Congress is going to be part of the conversation.
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  I think that the executive already has great power for foreign policy decision making.
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  Without Congress, I think that a bad situation from the point of view
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  of limited authority for the executive becomes worse and that's going to impact foreign policy
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  as well as domestic policy, something that we and Windsor, Ontario have a
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  front row seat to watch unfold your living on your side of the border.
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  Doctor Farnsworth, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.
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  Thank you have a good one. Thank you, Doctor Stephen J. Farnsworth,
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  Professor of Political Science and International Affairs and Director, Center for Leadership and
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  Media Studies, University of Mary Washington. You're listening to AM eight hundred CKLW.
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  We will be back right after this