Latest / SHeCOMMERCE / Episode 10: Progress, Power & The Work Still Left to Do w/ Christine Nikolaou from The FMCG Guys

Transcript

Episode 10: Progress, Power & The Work Still Left to Do w/ Christine Nikolaou from The FMCG Guys · SHeCOMMERCE

0:04
SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to SheCommerce, where power women, smart advocates, and real talk collide in the world of commerce.
0:11
SPEAKER_02: Is Women's History Month.
0:13
SPEAKER_02: It's International Women's Day that we are still celebrating together.
0:16
SPEAKER_02: But before we get completely flooded with all the celebrations, pink logos, and inspirational quotes, let's be clear.
0:24
SPEAKER_02: This is not a complete victory lap.
0:27
SPEAKER_02: While we want to celebrate progress, there's still work to be done.
0:30
SPEAKER_00: This is an audit.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: No PR, no fluff, straight talking.
0:34
SPEAKER_01: Which also feels very much unbranded, I have to say, for the FMCG guys as well.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: Like really going beyond on the things that just, you know, look good on LinkedIn.
0:43
SPEAKER_02: By the way, you may have noticed a third woman joining us here today.
0:48
SPEAKER_02: Uh, this is Christine.
0:50
SPEAKER_02: She's isn't just here as a guest, she is part of our friends at the FMCG guys, which means she spends a lot of time calling out industry nonsense from a different angle.
1:03
SPEAKER_02: And we love the FMC guys CG guys with Daniel and Efron.
1:08
SPEAKER_02: So welcome, Christine.
1:09
SPEAKER_02: We're so happy to have you.
1:11
SPEAKER_01: I'm so happy to be here and thank you very much for inviting me.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: It's it's an absolute pleasure.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: It was a joy meeting you a couple of years ago.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: Christina, you won't be surprised that Christine and I bonded over a glass of Prosecco.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: I'm shocked.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you look shocked, Christina.
1:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, not surprised, not surprised.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: I think it was uh in uh one of our shop doc events, right?
1:32
SPEAKER_01: We were doing in Barcelona with the FMCG guys at that point.
1:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:35
SPEAKER_00: One of the very first ones.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: And you know, the She Commerce and FMCG guys, I guess you could look at it as um the FMCG guys is where you know we break down the industry, or where you break down the industry, She Commerce is where you break down the system inside the industry.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: Think of it as as adjacent podcasts, you know, shared values, slightly different challengers to the throne, shall we say?
2:04
SPEAKER_01: Let's get the show in the world.
2:05
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: This is also why it feels very natural to be having this conversation with you guys.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm I'm really excited, to be honest, to see where we land today, because you have three women, um, all with opinions.
2:21
SPEAKER_00: Am I right, ladies?
2:25
SPEAKER_00: Strong ones.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: Very strong ones.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: So I'm really, I'm really excited about this.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: So let's start with, let's start with something that we've been looking at from a McKinsey report list.
2:36
SPEAKER_00: Christina, I'm gonna hand this over to you uh to kick us off.
2:41
SPEAKER_02: Let's jump in.
2:42
SPEAKER_02: So we did look at the McKinsey Women in the Workplace report from 2025 that was published and is published annual annually to pull out some stats, you know, to get the receipts, as we say, see where we're at.
2:55
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, the first one is slightly uncomfortable.
2:59
SPEAKER_02: It's probably one of the hardest stats that I saw in the report.
3:03
SPEAKER_02: Uh so I'm just gonna put it out there.
3:04
SPEAKER_02: For every hundred men promoted to manager, only 93% of women make that step.
3:10
SPEAKER_02: And when you break it down by race, the drop gets real ugly fast.
3:15
SPEAKER_02: So before we, you know, do our Women's History Month bingo, I think the real question we need to answer, and ladies, this is where I'd love to hear from you.
3:26
SPEAKER_02: Are we overfocusing on parity at the top, right?
3:30
SPEAKER_02: Like the when we talk about diversity and companies broadcasting in and, you know, women on boards and changing that stat, which are very important as well.
3:40
SPEAKER_02: But are we ignoring that, you know, the lower levels and you know, the very first promotion that shapes everything after it?
3:47
SPEAKER_01: I can go there, like standing starting with the strong opinions that we just said.
3:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean, like we are very much focused on kind of like the glass ceiling, which does exist, right?
3:56
SPEAKER_01: It's not that we need we should be neglecting it.
3:59
SPEAKER_01: But the where the real problem kind of is, I would say, is this broken first step of the ladder, if it's a ladder, right?
4:07
SPEAKER_01: Because after this first step, everything is math, right?
4:10
SPEAKER_01: The pipeline is already broken if you cannot get past that level where you get your first kind of like PL exposure or you get your first team to manage, and you get your first exposure, kind of like leadership material and get into those accession pipelines.
4:26
SPEAKER_01: So it's all nice, I will say, in lack of a better word, to for companies to also have like the focus on how do they have the right mix in their leadership teams and make sure that people that are making the decisions they get the diversity there.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: Yes, this is also important.
4:41
SPEAKER_01: But how do you build a system that ultimately enables that by really having the right processes in place and fighting the intrinsic biases that allow women to take that first step?
4:55
SPEAKER_00: That is a fantastic POV, Christine.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: But I'm actually going to go completely opposite to that, Christina.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: Because I think that we do have a number of uh we have made progress in entry and sort of junior management, but to Christine's point, you are 100% right.
5:17
SPEAKER_00: It's a glass ceiling, it's not so much glass as it's in glass encased in perspective with glass bricks and you know it.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: That is some kind of bomb bomb proof shit ceiling, right?
5:28
SPEAKER_00: What I think, or from my perspective, I would say that change needs to happen from the top so and and get cascaded down.
5:35
SPEAKER_00: If you have more diversity at the top, if you have more women on boards, to quote uh Kirsten and Gazi, then that intrinsically changes the very fabric, the very culture of an organization.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: So that thinking, that vibe for want of uh a better word, trickles down, and people are already then starting to think of okay, we don't just want a cookie cutter, let's try a different perspective, let's try a different point of view.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: And I and I believe that it's when it's from the top down that you are owned that is when you are going to be able to make change.
6:16
SPEAKER_00: Because you can have, you know, Christine, we've seen it, so many incredible, fabulous people coming up through the ranks, right?
6:24
SPEAKER_00: Women, women of color, um, et cetera, et cetera.
6:28
SPEAKER_00: But they reach a point and then that's it.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: You know, they are stymied because and ultimately they're stymied because if you have the old guard at the top, they don't want to change, they don't want to make changes that will put their old guard and that legacy privilege at risk.
6:46
SPEAKER_00: But if you have that change already, then they are so much more open to I was the change, let me bring more change.
6:56
SPEAKER_00: I that's what I think anyway.
6:57
SPEAKER_01: You know where where the problem is, Jackie, that you are right.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: Like this is definitely the problem, and you cannot go on without like making sure that you're solving for this part.
7:08
SPEAKER_01: And it's not a bad, it's an end.
7:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you also need to make sure that you're creating a system that will enable women to progress because otherwise you keep on like having the panels and the mentorships and the training.
7:21
SPEAKER_01: So you're training athletes that you never want to put out there to compete.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: You need to give them this opportunity for the first like senior accountability role.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: You will not go from like being a great mareteer to running a company because simply like they want to also fix the top.
7:42
SPEAKER_01: There needs to be a system in the middle.
7:44
SPEAKER_02: I agree.
7:45
SPEAKER_02: I was gonna say the same thing.
7:46
SPEAKER_02: I think it's what both of you said, it needs to come from the top, but there has to be the the system supporting it.
7:52
SPEAKER_02: And it is about the pipeline too, right?
7:55
SPEAKER_02: Like we love to post about, you know, who's the next female, VP, CMO, etc.
8:01
SPEAKER_02: But we don't talk as much about all those that may have got passed over for that manager role three levels earlier.
8:09
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's the headline that everybody wants in leadership.
8:12
SPEAKER_02: Nobody wants to have the operating conversation about that talent pipeline.
8:17
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, the pipeline doesn't leak, it gets managed, it's filtered out, it's obviously interrupted.
8:25
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's where we need to ensure that at every level in that, like what is that ecosystem and what is that process that we continue to ensure that female leadership is represented at every level and that we have a slate of candidates, female candidates and male, that can fill that next role.
8:44
SPEAKER_02: And that, like you said, we're training those athletes to be ready, but how are we serving them up for the field, right?
8:50
SPEAKER_02: Are they ready to jump in the game or not?
8:53
SPEAKER_01: And can I share a story that like made me really, really mad?
8:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I'm doing this um the boardroom.
9:00
SPEAKER_01: I think that you know the program for like board readiness.
9:03
SPEAKER_01: And um, as part of like uh one of the events, they had brought in a very senior um executive from like a headhunter a super senior person who does headhunt a man for uh a lot of big companies for their boards, and uh he was explaining to us how of course companies are very open to having women on boards and in like super high up positions, but the fact is there is no pool because we don't have enough women with the experience.
9:34
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, yeah, that's a mess.
9:37
SPEAKER_02: To quote our friends at Women on Boards, it is not a supply problem, it is a demand problem.
9:43
SPEAKER_01: It is a demand problem, and it is a matter of visibility and giving women who have the skills because we have the right pipeline.
9:52
SPEAKER_01: We have women that we have been training for a long time, and they have the experience and they do not get on that path to be able to be seen and acknowledged and then progress.
10:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, great point.
10:04
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
10:05
SPEAKER_01: Okay, shall we go to the next one?
10:07
SPEAKER_01: Yes, go for it.
10:09
SPEAKER_01: Okay, it's going to be loaded this episode with the points that we have.
10:13
SPEAKER_01: So from the report.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:16
SPEAKER_01: At the current pace that we have in senior leader parity in senior leadership would take 22 years for white women and 48 years for all women, including women of color.
10:28
SPEAKER_01: And women still hold only like 29% of C-suit roles, like going back to the top problem, right?
10:36
SPEAKER_01: So on one hand, we celebrate progress, I guess, around you know, more women in leadership, but how can we still be stuck at the 29% in the C-suite?
10:47
SPEAKER_02: It's really it's actually like disheartening to hear those those stats, right?
10:54
SPEAKER_02: And uh that's a long time.
10:56
SPEAKER_02: I mean, we're this is 2026 for it to be almost a a half a century later for all women to get, you know, that that feels like more than necessary, right?
11:09
SPEAKER_02: Uh it shouldn't be that it shouldn't take that long.
11:11
SPEAKER_02: And we we should honestly, in my opinion, already be there.
11:15
SPEAKER_02: So I think that that's the part that people, you know, don't want to sit with.
11:19
SPEAKER_02: Like that representation is easier to celebrate than you know the authority to really make the change at pace.
11:28
SPEAKER_02: And women, while they're inviting women to the meeting, it feels like men are still running the meeting, right?
11:33
SPEAKER_02: Based on these numbers.
11:34
SPEAKER_00: My 10-year-old daughter will be 58, according to this.
11:40
SPEAKER_00: 58 years old, my 10-year-old daughter for So at the end of her career.
11:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for parity for women.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: And it's as I said earlier, you know, um, why is this happening and what's the reasoning?
11:53
SPEAKER_00: It's because the closer you get to money, control, and credibility being redistributed, the slower things move.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: And the reason things move slower is because it's the loss of control of authority, ownership, and that legacy privilege.
12:10
SPEAKER_00: It's the legacy that that power, redistributing power, threatens those legacy structures.
12:15
SPEAKER_00: And the higher you go, the more change feels like loss to those who are already there and who haven't had to work anywhere near as hard as women, women of color, people of color.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
12:29
SPEAKER_01: And we're talking about like having a seated table.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: The question is like who builds that table?
12:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, who invites you.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: Exactly, right?
12:37
SPEAKER_01: Pretty good.
12:38
SPEAKER_01: And this is why it's uncomfortable to have these discussions and to really like the same way on what we're doing here, right?
12:44
SPEAKER_01: Instead of having a panel that says, Oh, you know, here are uh 10 uh power moves and how you are supposed to be doing public speaking to be empowered, but actually calling it out for what it is, like it's a system that is not built to um allow no, to promote progress and actually support women to succeed, right?
13:07
SPEAKER_01: At this at the same time, it's what we're discussing also before a little bit about the type of roles that women will be able to get to be on a path to become a CEO.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: How are you going to be a CEO if you are never running a PL?
13:21
SPEAKER_01: If you have a lot of women in leadership roles and they are functional leaders, right?
13:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm I'm not saying that HR is not important, but it's probably not the path to CEO, and if you're only directing women towards enabling functions, then you will never have them at the forefront.
13:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think the point you and Jackie have made, it's like anywhere power gets concentrated.
13:44
SPEAKER_02: So what are those tables then where that's happening?
13:48
SPEAKER_02: You said PL ownership.
13:49
SPEAKER_02: I completely agree.
13:50
SPEAKER_02: I think it's you know, enterprise decisions, it's where there's that operating control, you know, GM, you know, transformation, etc.
14:01
SPEAKER_02: So I think again, it feels like we're being seen, but not always being heard.
14:06
SPEAKER_02: Those are not the same things.
14:09
SPEAKER_02: You know, neither one will automatically be equal to being able to decide.
14:15
SPEAKER_02: So it probably, you know, goes back to what we're saying, like coming from the top, it has to be where the power is more concentrated and they have the authority to make those decisions.
14:25
SPEAKER_02: You know, visibility without that power is just branding, right?
14:29
SPEAKER_02: And something more performative, and representation without authority is just optics.
14:35
SPEAKER_02: So it it does come back to that.
14:38
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: But it's also much easier to discuss about visibility because then you can put it on the women that they are not being visible enough, they're not loud enough.
14:47
SPEAKER_01: Of course, then when you do, you're like unlocked, which is also a problem.
14:52
SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
14:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so yeah, it's uh I hate that.
14:57
unknown: Yeah.
14:57
SPEAKER_00: It's it is so absolutely, you guys have just hit it the nail on the head.
15:02
SPEAKER_00: And you know, if you ask this question generally, industry would say, but representation has improved, exactly to your point.
15:09
SPEAKER_00: For marketing, for HR, for comms, for people roles, for brand leadership.
15:16
SPEAKER_00: But every one of those roles has limited power to make a difference.
15:23
SPEAKER_01: But on the on the representation, let me say one of my favorite stats, which I think I've also said in a couple of since you guys episodes, which is a few years ago, the number of women CEOs outnumber the uh number of men CEOs named John.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: So that's a win we can take that.
15:43
SPEAKER_02: We had that on the Women on Boards episode.
15:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it is shocking, right?
15:46
SPEAKER_02: It's like shall we shall we move on?
15:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
15:54
SPEAKER_02: I think the next the next segment is really important because if women are not moving forward at that same rate, then someone has to ask what actually does move careers forward in the first place, you know?
16:06
SPEAKER_00: And again, we we go back to thank you, Christina, we go back to McKinsey.
16:11
SPEAKER_00: And they have stated that employees with sponsors are promoted at nearly twice the rate of those without them.
16:21
SPEAKER_00: 65% versus 35%.
16:24
SPEAKER_00: But at entry level, only 31% of women have sponsors compared with 45% of men.
16:31
SPEAKER_00: And here's the rub.
16:33
SPEAKER_00: This is a conversation that we had with um Aisha Khan uh a few weeks ago, Christina, if you remember.
16:39
SPEAKER_00: And almost verbatim, I think she read the same document.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: Almost verbatim, and she and she was talking about her career.
16:46
SPEAKER_00: And she specifically called out that having a sponsor was as provided a much higher yield or results than just a mentor.
16:57
SPEAKER_00: So the question here really is how much of a career acceleration is performance, and how much is it about who you're is speaking your name in the right room?
17:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, I believe it's definitely the ladder there, and probably more so than people want to admit, right?
17:18
SPEAKER_02: Because it it is sometimes you see it.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: Like I we all know of people where like, how did they get in that role, right?
17:24
SPEAKER_02: But it's like everyone kind of there knows them and is talking about them and they, you know, they stay top of mind.
17:31
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, sometimes that does outweigh the work you do, right?
17:35
SPEAKER_02: Like if you do great work, maybe people want to keep you doing that.
17:38
SPEAKER_02: You're just seen as a worker bee.
17:40
SPEAKER_02: But, you know, how do you make sure that leadership story and your your brand is really known more and and your ambitions as well.
17:50
SPEAKER_02: And it's not just you sharing that, right?
17:52
SPEAKER_02: Like it's it's the ratings and reviews, right?
17:55
SPEAKER_02: If you have more people saying the same thing, you're more likely to buy into something.
17:59
SPEAKER_02: So I think this is similar in business, right?
18:03
SPEAKER_02: If I tell you I'm great, okay, fine, maybe you'll believe it.
18:06
SPEAKER_02: But if 10 other people in the room are like, oh, this person's really great, you gotta talk to her, like let's get her opinion, let's pull her into the meeting.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: Obviously, that's going to be much more meaningful.
18:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
18:17
SPEAKER_01: To be very frank, like our ears don't accelerate in performance reviews, they accelerate in the rooms that you're not in.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: But let me share with you guys a framework.
18:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, we were actually being taught in back in my days at PNZ.
18:31
SPEAKER_01: I'm actively bringing this up with everyone in my team, uh, which is Pi.
18:36
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you're familiar with it.
18:38
SPEAKER_01: Pi as in performance, image, and exposure.
18:41
SPEAKER_01: So the framework says uh that career success comes 10% from performance, 30% from image, and 60% from exposure.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: So you cannot go anywhere without the performance.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: Okay, there are people who manage to do that, okay.
18:56
SPEAKER_01: But the basis is okay, you need to be fundamentally like have the foundations there of being able to do your job, right?
19:04
SPEAKER_01: But then you need to make sure that um you are aware of how people are perceiving you and your work, and then how many people actually have seen it?
19:15
SPEAKER_01: How many people speak about it?
19:16
SPEAKER_01: Do you have anyone talking about you when you're not in the room?
19:21
SPEAKER_01: Do you get that exposure?
19:22
SPEAKER_01: And that's 60%.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: That's the biggest part.
19:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:27
SPEAKER_02: And I think this is where women disproportionately underindex versus men, because women have a very hard time advocating, you know, telling that story, and they don't want to come across um, you know, like bragging or overly confident and uh, you know, advocating for themselves.
19:46
SPEAKER_02: I have spoken and mentored so many women that immediately downplay themselves, right?
19:52
SPEAKER_02: And it goes back to like women when they apply for jobs, they're like, oh, I don't have that one skill out of the 10 they're looking for, so I'm not gonna apply.
19:59
SPEAKER_02: Meanwhile, men tend to maybe overstate some of their experience.
20:04
SPEAKER_02: So I think it's the same thing.
20:06
SPEAKER_02: Like, how do you build a platform so that people know the great work you're doing?
20:10
SPEAKER_02: And it's not about bragging, it's about, you know, storytelling and sharing the work and the value add that it brings to the business, the different teams, et cetera, or people learning best practices to share.
20:22
SPEAKER_02: And then once you're talking about it, how do you get some of those sponsors?
20:26
SPEAKER_02: You're sharing that with your sponsors.
20:27
SPEAKER_02: So they also are telling that story.
20:30
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, it it starts to, I'll say, become viral and become part of your image and what you're known for.
20:36
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's so important for women to be feel comfortable and have the tools to be able to do that.
20:43
SPEAKER_00: We need to start having these conversations about sponsorship more than mentorship with our girls right now.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: Not just right now, like from the time that they are in an environment where they have got to start advocating for themselves for themselves.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: And that's from nursery, right?
21:03
SPEAKER_00: We have got to start showing them that you don't need to tick every single box to be the person to um put your hand up for X or Y.
21:14
SPEAKER_00: You don't, you need to build your image, you need to build your visibility, and we need to go away from everything that we grew up with, which is do really well and you'll be rewarded.
21:26
SPEAKER_00: You know, if you're a hard worker, you're totally gonna get promoted.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: You're totally gonna be fine.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: I call it on that.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
21:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you should have a bullshit bell that we ring on like spag.
21:44
SPEAKER_02: It's coming, it's coming.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, guys, you need uh but you know what?
21:49
SPEAKER_01: Well, I love what you're both saying.
21:51
SPEAKER_01: I also want to turn this around and not just say like how you as a women as are struggling or trying to.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Find sponsorship.
22:01
SPEAKER_01: How is everybody who's listening to this podcast actively sponsoring other women right now?
22:07
SPEAKER_01: Like we also need to make sure that this is part of our agenda and we do this in a purposeful way, and not just when it happens, right?
22:17
SPEAKER_01: Unless we decide that it's about time that we change things and we take action, nothing will change, and it will not just happen with more junior women coming up to you and trying to establish a connection.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: You also need, as a leader, to make sure that you do that, regardless of your gender rights, and regardless of the biases, which might be a unconscious, but you know exist.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: So seek out people who are not like you and try to understand how you can sponsor them.
22:46
SPEAKER_02: And can we just take a moment?
22:47
SPEAKER_02: Because it's a really important point.
22:49
SPEAKER_02: Mentors advise you, they're like coaching you.
22:53
SPEAKER_02: This is where you'll get into the detail.
22:55
SPEAKER_02: You know, I have this project, I have this conflict, I have, you know, whatever it is.
22:59
SPEAKER_02: I want to work on my presentation skills, whatever.
23:03
SPEAKER_02: Sponsors don't necessarily do that, they don't get into all the details to coach you.
23:08
SPEAKER_02: They advocate for you, and as you said, when you're not in the room.
23:12
SPEAKER_02: So they tend to be more senior.
23:15
SPEAKER_02: They have decision-making authority.
23:18
SPEAKER_02: And I think to your point, Christine, what are sponsors seeking out people to sponsor, right?
23:24
SPEAKER_02: This is very much in the give to gain theme for International Women's Day this year.
23:30
SPEAKER_02: But that they need to have commercial credibility and they need to be willing as a sponsor to put your name against a real opportunity and say your name on those rooms for the skills you have, the ambitions you have, the roles you want, and to connect you to those opportunities.
23:47
SPEAKER_02: And I think it is that distinction is important because you might think they're a sponsor and they might think they're a mentor.
23:54
SPEAKER_02: And you, as the person being sponsored, should say that, you know, are you willing and able to be a sponsor for me?
24:02
SPEAKER_02: Meaning you, you know, would uh, you know, advocate for me in those, in those situations.
24:09
SPEAKER_02: Like I think you really need to state it clearly what you want from that sponsor so that they're clear.
24:16
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, hopefully you you have that mutual agreement and there's going to be that value add.
24:22
SPEAKER_02: And I love that you said sponsors should go seek some people to sponsor as well.
24:27
SPEAKER_02: Think about people like in your number.
24:29
SPEAKER_02: You may already be a sponsor to someone, like informally, because you do say they're name in rooms, right?
24:35
SPEAKER_02: You're you are a cheerleader.
24:37
SPEAKER_02: And maybe then just that start there and say, have a connection with that person.
24:41
SPEAKER_02: Say, you know, I'd love to sponsor you, but I'm talking about you this way.
24:45
SPEAKER_02: What is the narrative that you want to be shared on your behalf?
24:49
SPEAKER_02: And do I sponsor you, you know, even further?
24:52
SPEAKER_02: I think that's an easy place to start.
24:53
unknown: Yeah.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
24:55
SPEAKER_00: I love that, Christine.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: Maybe that should be our call to action for this for this episode.
25:00
SPEAKER_01: If you're seeing this, go find somebody to sponsor.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: Go find sponsories.
25:07
SPEAKER_02: I love it.
25:07
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
25:08
SPEAKER_02: So should shall we shall we tr transition?
25:12
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
25:12
SPEAKER_02: Let's go to the next one.
25:15
SPEAKER_02: Another um stat from our uh the McKinsey report.
25:20
SPEAKER_02: Only 54% of companies say women's career advancement is a high priority.
25:27
SPEAKER_02: And only 46% say that the same for women of color.
25:31
SPEAKER_02: So obviously, while many more still say we believe in an inclusive culture, diversity matters, right?
25:39
SPEAKER_02: I think they're all saying that.
25:40
SPEAKER_02: But this is where when you look at the numbers, that say do gap becomes very evident.
25:46
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, w let's talk about then what no one is kind of putting in the deck.
25:53
SPEAKER_02: You know, again, who who's not even getting invited to to write that deck in the first place?
25:57
SPEAKER_02: Because that's what we really need to be talking about and how to fix it.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: I think it's what Zaki said, right?
26:03
SPEAKER_01: So inequity is not necessarily that complex.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: It's just very, very uncomfortable to talk about because then to fix it, you need to redistribute power.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: And we just don't want this to happen.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: And then you end up with like saying, Oh my god, I want to empower women, right?
26:19
SPEAKER_01: No, we want to empower women.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: We want to give them opportunities.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: But then we know that women take up the majority of childcare, but mobility is number one priority.
26:31
SPEAKER_01: And no, we are not going to be paying you enough for your husband to leave his job, but you need to be following us wherever we tell you to go.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: And you just need to figure it all out on your own.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: So I think ultimately it's about like the cost-benefit equation of what the companies are willing to offer.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: And because they're not willing, like people in people who make decisions are not willing to take the hard choices that would feel uncomfortable for the status quo to end up with a system that will not allow it.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: No, and that the thing is change is hard.
27:05
SPEAKER_00: Let's let's just call it out there, right?
27:07
SPEAKER_00: Change is really hard, and it takes effort, and it takes thought, and it takes um actually uh and it takes action.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: And people, they don't want to commit, they want to give us cupcakes for International Women's Day, right?
27:22
SPEAKER_00: And I part of part of my thinking right now, and and this is you know, I've been having conversations on projects completely completely not relevant to anything we're talking here, but it's same sort of same mechanics, and that is if we are in a situation where change is hard and people don't want to do the work, would they do the work if we gave them the template, the blueprint, the workflow, the if this, that, that, the program, so that all they would need to do is execute.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: They would not have to, they would not have to create, they would not have to ideate, they would not have to build, they would not have to spend time and effort on it.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: They would just have to execute.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: Do you think that they would execute, or do you think that they would come up with another excuse because execution still means losing that privilege of control and order for yourself?
28:18
SPEAKER_02: Well, I think you're trying to get to the heart of it.
28:21
SPEAKER_02: Like, what is the bottleneck here, right?
28:24
SPEAKER_02: Why, what is the root cause and what will it take to fix it?
28:28
SPEAKER_02: So if if you determine what that is, and I think Christine, you you probab you're on to it, right?
28:34
SPEAKER_02: That um it it does go back to, you know, women's flexibility around some of those work-life priorities, right?
28:43
SPEAKER_02: Or maybe being out for child childcare, having babies, like that loss of it becomes penity penalty.
28:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
28:51
SPEAKER_02: And being penalized for those things.
28:53
SPEAKER_02: And we know that organizations have progressed and there's paternity leave, but it it's not the same, right?
28:58
SPEAKER_02: And so I think if we are able to find a solution to that, would there be another one?
29:04
SPEAKER_02: I think probably, Jackie, because comfort is still going to outrank courage in a lot of organizations, unfortunately.
29:12
SPEAKER_02: And um, and that and it comes down to that.
29:15
SPEAKER_02: However, I think it would go a long way to address the root cause of why we're still seeing, you know, the these numbers and you know, the these stats around women being behind in the in these regards.
29:29
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I mean, we need to fix it.
29:31
SPEAKER_02: We need to start there.
29:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:33
SPEAKER_02: More flexibility around how, you know, advancement works in organizations.
29:38
SPEAKER_02: And we live in a very virtual world, nothing stopped during COVID.
29:42
SPEAKER_02: So we've proven that that can work.
29:44
SPEAKER_02: But those international moves or relocation shouldn't be the price for advancement anymore.
29:49
SPEAKER_02: And I think women are definitely paying disproportionately for those, those completely.
29:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm very tempted to go with a story on that.
29:57
SPEAKER_01: But actually, you're giving me such a great pass, Christina, for the next point that we have.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: That I think that it's worth like jumping onto it, which is on flexibility specifically.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: Indeed, what we did at the McKinsey report is flexibility remains common.
30:11
SPEAKER_01: One in three employees, so it declined in 2024, and a quarter of the companies scaled back remote or hybrid work.
30:20
SPEAKER_01: And women working remotely most of the time were less likely to have sponsors connect to the previous point as well, or recent promotion.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: So are we telling like women, like guys, you can be flexible, but then punish them for it, right?
30:35
SPEAKER_01: Because you're not there where it matters to take that leadership position.
30:39
SPEAKER_00: And can I just say as well to uh to your point, Christine?
30:43
SPEAKER_00: And this is I love I love that you bring stories to to the equation.
30:47
SPEAKER_00: I love a good story.
30:48
SPEAKER_00: They men are penalized for flexibility as well.
30:51
SPEAKER_00: Because a few roles ago, my husband was not allowed to be flexible because when he said I have to go home because my children are are aren't well, they looked at him and asked, Don't you have a wife?
31:06
SPEAKER_00: And it was and he was like, Oh no, you didn't never say that to my wife, ever.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: And that was the and that was the uh uh that's that that's that's not outdated.
31:18
SPEAKER_00: That is current.
31:19
SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm not talking about 15, 20, 30 years ago.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: I'm talking about three years ago.
31:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
31:26
SPEAKER_02: And I I think you know, that flexibility isn't a perk anymore.
31:30
SPEAKER_02: It is, I think post-COVID, it's the expectation that both men and women have.
31:36
SPEAKER_02: And I think with caregiving responsibilities and the realities of that, um, it needs to be part of the infrastructure.
31:45
SPEAKER_02: And to your point, I think men maybe there's less flexibility like when they use that as a reason.
31:55
SPEAKER_02: Women, they're given that flexibility, but then penalized for it, right?
31:59
SPEAKER_02: So it's it's slightly different.
32:01
SPEAKER_02: But I I do think this return to office policy that we're seeing as a lot of organizations do is becoming a gender equity issue.
32:10
SPEAKER_02: And that's scary because again, we're now going backwards instead of forwards, which is not what we want.
32:17
SPEAKER_02: And it's not because like offices are evil, right?
32:20
SPEAKER_02: But I think that companies are confusing that physical visibility with value creation, and that couldn't be further from the truth.
32:29
SPEAKER_01: And all work, all the boomer men running companies.
32:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's confusing, yeah.
32:35
SPEAKER_00: There there is that.
32:36
SPEAKER_00: There's also, you know, and it puts the work that advocates like Mother Pucker, you know, who is a phenomenal advocate and changed the law in the UK for flexible working, she worked tirelessly to get flexible working into the bill into a bill here in the UK.
32:55
SPEAKER_00: And it's putting all of that in jeopardy or or on the wayside because at the end of the day, you can say flexible working in your contract, but that flexible working has to be truly intrinsic and not performer performative.
33:09
SPEAKER_00: And we're moving to performative yet again, which is just it's frustrating.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: It's two steps forward, three steps back.
33:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:16
SPEAKER_02: No, it is.
33:18
SPEAKER_02: It is tied to how we assess performance in these organizations.
33:22
SPEAKER_02: And if we are defaulting, like if you think about a performance review and how I this is like a pet peep of mine, how biased they can be, right?
33:31
SPEAKER_02: And the few examples or you picking those favorite stakeholders that are gonna only say good things.
33:37
SPEAKER_02: And it's that one point of the the year instead of really looking holistically at your your body of work and influence.
33:43
SPEAKER_02: I think if we default back to like those reviews, who they see most, who they know best, and who they bump into, right?
33:52
SPEAKER_02: The easiest, then that really creates this system that's about presence over contribution, right?
34:01
SPEAKER_02: And impact.
34:02
SPEAKER_02: And so as you think about designing like a the truly modern workplace, like what is are those policies and what are those performance assessments, because that's very much part of it, that are going to help enable a more flexible work environment.
34:19
SPEAKER_02: So I think it's important to look at, you know, the the the spokes coming off the wheel, if you if you will, of this one um issue.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: I think both guides mentioned flexibility like as a perk or as a benefit.
34:33
SPEAKER_01: And I think this is one of the core issues to it.
34:36
SPEAKER_01: Like it needs to become infrastructure as long as it's some as like a treat that you're giving.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: And then you feel that some of your employees are kind of like abusing it because like I'm just allowing them to do that.
34:48
SPEAKER_01: That's not how you operate.
34:49
SPEAKER_01: You haven't really set up this system and this environment.
34:53
SPEAKER_01: And we do need it.
34:54
SPEAKER_01: And for me, something that always comes to my mind is Indranu's book.
34:58
SPEAKER_01: I think it's called My Life in Full.
35:01
SPEAKER_01: It's an amazing book, and she, of course, she did incredible stuff as a woman in leadership, right?
35:07
SPEAKER_01: Being CEO of PepsiCo all those years ago.
35:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, and she talks in her book a lot about the burdens of both childcare but also care of the elderly that usually falls on women's shoulders, and how many things she had to sacrifice, and how thankful she is for the support she managed to get from her ecosystem in order to have the career that she ultimately did have.
35:31
SPEAKER_01: So um now all those years later, where we have gone through the pandemic, we have seen how we can make things work and we can do so successfully, also decrease costs, increase productivity.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: And I'm not talking just about necessarily people need to work from home, overall flexibility in whatever shape or form that looks like.
35:50
SPEAKER_01: And that might include travel or working hours, all of that.
35:55
SPEAKER_01: It's just frustrating.
35:56
SPEAKER_01: But again, it's about the fear of letting go uh of structures that worked in the past, structures that made certain people also feel valued in an office environment.
36:09
SPEAKER_01: Or the un the discomfort of some people of being at home with their families while they've spent like 35, 40 years in the workforce not doing that, and now they cannot cope.
36:20
SPEAKER_01: And those people are the ones that are in usually the decision sit.
36:25
SPEAKER_02: And it is antiquated and it is about losing that control.
36:29
SPEAKER_02: But I remember one of my first roles in marketing, uh someone told me, more senior than me, you don't leave the office until your manager leaves.
36:39
SPEAKER_02: You know, I don't care if you need to just sit at your desk and act like you're working, you stay until your manager leaves.
36:44
SPEAKER_02: Because again, it was like a check the box, like visibility.
36:46
SPEAKER_02: What does that say if you're leaving for?
36:48
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, it says that I'm more efficient than them and I get my shit done.
36:51
SPEAKER_02: Like that's what it says.
36:53
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
36:54
SPEAKER_02: I have, you know, other responsibilities.
36:56
SPEAKER_02: Like, why do I why am I being penalized for that?
36:59
SPEAKER_02: But I think, you know, it you you need to embrace that.
37:02
SPEAKER_02: You need to also be clear.
37:04
SPEAKER_02: And I think you show up when it matters.
37:07
SPEAKER_02: It's quality over quantity.
37:09
SPEAKER_02: And I I do believe that.
37:10
SPEAKER_02: Now, that's my belief.
37:12
SPEAKER_02: That's not everybody's belief.
37:13
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's where we need to change.
37:15
SPEAKER_02: And with people living older, uh, you know, longer, this idea of elderly care is going to continue to be more of a pressing priority for many, um, balancing both their own children as well as now their the care of their parents.
37:31
SPEAKER_02: And I would say this is not limited just to people who have children.
37:34
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to discriminate.
37:36
SPEAKER_02: You know, that flexibility can come from whatever priorities are in your life, pets in your life, you know, school, friends, it doesn't matter.
37:44
SPEAKER_02: I think that that flexibility is about empowering and believing your workforce and not penalizing them for it when it's something you have built into your ecosystem.
37:56
SPEAKER_01: Guys, I think it's a very, very interesting conversation, the one that we're having right now.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: And we can go on four hours.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: But if there is kind of like one thing I would keep is it's simply that, you know, it's women's history management.
38:09
SPEAKER_01: History won't really move itself.
38:11
SPEAKER_01: It's the people with power that will be able to do so.
38:15
SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's about an equity isn't isn't a moment, it isn't performative, it isn't uh a nice to have.
38:23
SPEAKER_00: It is a deliberate choice that has to be made repeatedly.
38:28
SPEAKER_02: Yes, every day.
38:29
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's not Women's History Month isn't about how far we've come, but it's about how much further we still need to push and keeping it beyond just a month in the year.
38:42
SPEAKER_02: It's every day making you know that choice and being uh very consistent with it.
38:49
SPEAKER_01: I just want to thank everybody for like tuning in for this topic.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: I think it's super, super important.
38:55
SPEAKER_01: And hopefully, if this episode kind of like hit for you, go to the FMCZ guys also for the industry lens of things.
39:01
SPEAKER_01: And to e-commerce for the human one.
39:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, same truth.
39:04
SPEAKER_03: Same truth.
39:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, same truth, different mic.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
39:09
SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
39:10
SPEAKER_02: Uh so Christine, thank you so much for joining and doing this episode.
39:14
SPEAKER_02: It was so much fun and just the real talk.
39:17
SPEAKER_02: We could uh seriously go on and on about these things and you know how we'd like to see them progress, but we really appreciate your time and the partnership on this.
39:27
SPEAKER_02: With every episode that we do, we uh do a pledge to invite you into our sisterhood and continue to pay it forward for future women leaders and advocates.
39:37
SPEAKER_02: So, Christine, will you take the pledge with us?
39:40
SPEAKER_01: I will take the pledge and also go find some people to sponsor.
39:43
SPEAKER_00: That is wonderful, Christine.
39:45
SPEAKER_00: It's been a ton of fun having you on board.
39:48
SPEAKER_00: You are always welcome at our house.
39:51
SPEAKER_00: You know, we'll even let you bring Daniel next time.
39:54
SPEAKER_00: Let's see some bubbles and some bubbles.
39:56
SPEAKER_02: Yes, and bubbles.
39:58
SPEAKER_00: Wonderful, and thank you so much, ladies and gentlemen.
40:01
SPEAKER_00: Thanks, guys.
40:02
SPEAKER_00: All brands, fierce.
40:04
SPEAKER_00: I forgot the words now.
40:05
SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, I actually forgot the words.
40:06
SPEAKER_00: But let's run that again.
40:08
SPEAKER_00: Ladies and gentlemen, all brands, fierce women, one sisterhood, and cut.
40:12
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
40:14
SPEAKER_00: Gracious, I think middle of the day.