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Bonus Patreon Release: Amber Hunt, the Phoenix! With Terry Kavanagh and Hussein Rashid! · Graymalkin Lane the podcast

• 0:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Gray Mulkin Lane Patreon channel where we get to talk about obscure and often overlooked characters.
• 0:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: And this season on the show, we're taking some interesting journeys into some areas of marble that I think most X-Men fans don't consider.
• 0:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: I just got to do a huge micronauts episode where we focused on the character accroyer, which was really fun.
• 0:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: And today we're gonna take a shot into the world of Ultraverse and Malibu comics and talk about one of the worst characters I have ever read front to back.
• 0:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's the character of Amber Hunt.
• 0:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, we're gonna talk about it.
• 0:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: This is a crazy journey.
• 0:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm so excited to be joined by my friends Terry Kavanaugh and Hussain Rashid.
• 0:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: Both of whom have looks on their faces like, what the fuck am I doing here on this episode?
• 0:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: We just take journeys together, let me have you both introduce yourselves with your name and pronouns, and I'd love to hear your early thoughts on Revisiting the Ultraverse Terry, welcome back to Graeme, I'll can late my friends.
• 0:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
• 0:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Terry Cabinaw.
• 0:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm he him.
• 0:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: I worked for Marvel for about 20 years as an editor and a writer And that's everything I remember about Amber Hunt.
• 1:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'd also welcome to the same Rashid Hayasin.
• 1:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hello, hello, Chad good to see you again.
• 1:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was saying Rashid, he him, great-malkin, a regular number 74, and head of the irregular reunion.
• 1:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: I had stopped reading comics in the mid-90s when I went off to college, which is just about the time altruist was coming.
• 1:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I read this and I was like, literally in terms of like, what is this?
• 1:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: How was this allowed to happen?
• 1:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: What is going on here?
• 1:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: I say, you give me a shit on the show regularly about how I only invite you for brown characters.
• 1:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: This is what happens when I invite you for white random lady characters.
• 1:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, the character is shit, so still technically brown.
• 1:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'll play.
• 1:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 1:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: We're actually going to have a good time today.
• 1:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: Technology changes every once in a while and it changes everything around it.
• 1:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: If we go back to early advent, we go from Vaudeville to Radio to Silent Films to Tockies, right?
• 1:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like, even in this era, the country has to kind of constantly adapt.
• 2:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: If you consider Silent Films to Tockies, the entire culture of movie theaters and Vaudeville is like actively changing and
• 2:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: things kind of hold on to the old stuff.
• 2:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: We get into kind of color films, television, cable TV, the advent of the MTV generation.
• 2:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: All of these things have enormous impact on the industry.
• 2:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: When we consider the internet and what that did to the print industry in 2025, we're still considering what that means as comics exist in multiple formats.
• 2:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: And even more recently, the adaptation of kind of like scrolling features on phones, which has changed a lot too.
• 2:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: And things are always changing.
• 2:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: Consider, you know, 8 tracks to cassette tapes, to VCRs, to CDs, to DVRs and iPods, and even that's a different now, because there's everything streaming.
• 2:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: And we never know where text is going to go.
• 2:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: The comic industry is always adapting to this stuff as well.
• 2:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: And our characters have to grow over time with us.
• 2:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: When we go into the mid 90s in this kind of MTV generation, things are actively changing the comics industry prior to kind of marbles bankruptcy and the advent of the internet and how that changed everything.
• 3:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: Image comics is an enormous advent for the comics industry that kind of changed everything.
• 3:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: And Malibu comics is kind of an
• 3:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: odd offshoot of that type of thinking.
• 3:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: Terry, do you want to talk a little bit about working in the industry in the mid 90s and what this kind of image or creator writes stuff that was going on at the time?
• 3:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'd love to hear some firsthand experience if you're willing to share.
• 3:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can tell you that there was resentment in the Marvel offices when those guys broke away and started image.
• 3:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: I did not necessarily agree with that.
• 3:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to look at it as something that was good for everyone.
• 3:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was getting attention to comic books in general.
• 3:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we were shooting ourselves in the foot at that point.
• 3:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, at Marvel, we're doing all these.
• 3:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: variant covers for, you know, so we could get big numbers when we released X men one I think they did 10 different covers did God the largest sales ever it might have been 3 million or something like that at the time and it was a false number because we didn't get any more fans out of it we really just got people that were buying 10 copies of each cover and thinking they were going to be able to put their kids through college with it later when in fact
• 4:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: that's probably one of the least valuable comic books out there because there are millions of them.
• 4:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we weren't that quick to adapt to what we should have been adapting to.
• 4:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: We weren't going digitalite by the time I left staff, we still wouldn't even have computers at that point.
• 4:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I know there was a lot of talk about going digital long before Marvel ever went digital and there was some general consensus that it wasn't going to stick this digital thing.
• 4:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was just a passing phase, which is insane to think that.
• 4:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the image breakaway, I can't speak to the the Malibu stuff as well.
• 4:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the image breakaway stuff, I think, did do well for the comic book industry.
• 4:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: But like I said, within the marble halls, there was a lot of resentment, a lot of people felt that marble helped them get to the position where they could break away and do that.
• 5:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, I never understood what was wrong about that.
• 5:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, there's a lot of interesting things.
• 5:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's first talk about
• 5:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: digital for just a second.
• 5:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: I graduated college in 2005 with my masters and between 2002 and like 2015-16, every company I worked for was slowly going digital, which in the therapy world meant people were like scanning all of their paper records, which had been kept in huge closets into digital format and making them available.
• 5:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: and all the employees, many of whom had been working for years and years, had to adapt to these new digital formats.
• 5:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: To the point where huge amounts of money were being spent on certifications, it's an interesting thing.
• 5:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: You can look at how that affected college and like digital stuff library catalogs versus internet searches, right?
• 5:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like there's a lot of changing at the time,
• 5:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's hard for today's generation to kind of understand that enormous impact.
• 5:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: The other thing that's really active in consideration here is comics didn't really become available back issue-wise until recently digitally.
• 6:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of people can like pirate stuff or read things digitally, but back then it was really tricky to get your hands on the older stuff and a continuity mattered in a very different way.
• 6:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: This show came out at a time when all of the X-Men stuff matters at a very different level.
• 6:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: creator writes is a huge part of this as well.
• 6:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: Just a few years ago, I made a film and when I sold that film, I put all my own personal money into making the film.
• 6:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's something I did myself along with a film company who put some of their proceeds in.
• 6:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: When we sold the film, I never see a dime unless it reaches a certain threshold.
• 6:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's the agreement I made.
• 6:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: So the film is out there and available digitally now, and I've literally never seen a single petty from it.
• 6:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: Marvel has a lot of different agreements with people.
• 6:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's the same thing in Hollywood or any book publishing.
• 6:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: So there's a lot of times where people will get paid like a flat rate.
• 6:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: So if I wrote a product and sold it to a company, they may give me $1,000 for it, but they make 10 million off of it.
• 6:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I never see a dime of that.
• 7:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: And people who are creating characters for Marvel, you may get a page rate or a word count or something like that, but unless you have a specific thing in your contract that allows you to get a certain percentage of residuals or a certain percentage of, uh, here's this character I created and now you get to have a portion of that character's ownership moving forward.
• 7:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's been in place the complexities of that since Marvel's very earliest days.
• 7:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: Stan and Jack had a lot of rifts over this kind of thing.
• 7:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: So the image break away came largely oversimplifying of creators wanting to have direct access to their own work and their own characters and their launching things actively in trying to promote the really huge.
• 7:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: So huge names, right?
• 7:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like Jim Lee and Will's Portasio and Rob Laefeld and a bunch of others as people are trying to get involved.
• 7:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: Images the most famous example of this because it really is out there still a bit top cow and dot court dark horse and
• 7:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: and Malibu comics at a certain point.
• 7:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: And Marvel infamously brought in a lot of the image talent back to do that like Heroes Reborn relaunch and the late 90s where Franklin was carrying his big blue baller out and all the other heroes existed in another world.
• 8:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: There's a lot of really interesting components in Marvel's history here.
• 8:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: At a certain point Malibu comics was created and Marvel later acquired the rights to Malibu comics.
• 8:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: We talked about this in the Micronauts episode if you were listening, there were like toy lines, like ROM space night in the Micronauts that Marvel would like acquire the publication rights for and then later lose.
• 8:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's happened with Conan often on over the years.
• 8:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: So in the late 90s, there was a huge push for the character's Marvel acquired from Malibu comics.
• 8:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: in an effort to really make this like ultraverse or Malibuverse happen in their titles, tons of crossovers, tons of push, and then eventually they just kind of stop using them, and I don't even know where the character writes existed anymore.
• 8:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: But you'll see a bunch of these titles in the mid to late 90s.
• 8:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, my understanding was that Marvel purchased Malibu to get their coloring and their color processes.
• 8:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: That was my understanding more than the characters, but I guess they fell.
• 8:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I wasn't on the business end of Marvel.
• 9:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was on the creative end editorial and so I don't really know what their intentions were, but I'm guessing that they figured we have these characters.
• 9:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's do something with them as well.
• 9:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they created the eggsiles, which I came on to writing
• 9:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's one of the weirdest titles ever.
• 9:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, the weirdest X-Men books I've ever read in front to bag.
• 9:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's so strange.
• 9:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: So they included some marble characters, juggernaut, Reaper, I think.
• 9:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure.
• 9:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: He had a blaze, he had a blaze, and had them go over into the ultraverse and cross over and become a team with Amber Hunt and whoever else was on that team.
• 9:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can't really remember.
• 9:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: I
• 9:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Literally, what I remember about it is that they asked Fabian Nesias and a writer, and Fabian, I don't know if he was just overbooked or didn't want anything to do with it, but he pointed them to me.
• 9:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: They offered it to me.
• 9:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: I worked on it.
• 9:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: There was no clear mandate for that book.
• 10:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know where it was supposed to head to, whether we was supposed to be heading back to all the characters crossing over to
• 10:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: to Marvel or just the Marvel characters coming back to Marvel.
• 10:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was not given any direction for the book and really wasn't on it long enough to create any direction.
• 10:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm not proud of this, but a lot of it was just filler fully understood.
• 10:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: I was saying, what was it like for you to jump into the world of Malibu in 2025?
• 10:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, so it was really odd Chad, when you sent this to me.
• 10:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: When you sent them a question like Amber, who, and I'm like, oh, this is somebody who came out when I stopped reading.
• 10:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: I had no idea about Malibu, the ultraverse any of this.
• 10:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: And realizing to your point about rights and digital none of this is available digitally, I had to go back.
• 10:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: I actually had some of the floppy's with the X-Men crossovers, which saw I was able to read some of this is physical copies I had from way back when.
• 10:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was able to track down.
• 10:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so it was just really bizarre reading all of this
• 10:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Where do the exiles from the ultraverse to the same exiles that we're reading in like 20 20 no no no right there's lots of different versions of exiles the most famous again for the ones from the early 2000s where their reality hopping and like blinking right but this is a totally different no connection right and like okay so I can sort of grab myself but I can and then Phoenix shows up and I go I can grab myself through Phoenix I'm like
• 11:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, I can't.
• 11:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, it's just a lot of me saying, no, I can't.
• 11:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: This is kind of a dive into like a Wikipedia hole.
• 11:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: If you want to go there, if you look up the ultraverse, which is produced by Malibu comics, there was a huge push to make these comics a big deal.
• 11:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: And they kind of never were.
• 11:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: And they kind of revamped a few times, but they like really made a big deal of it at first.
• 11:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: And this is like the wizard magazine era, right?
• 11:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: You got to feel like a lot of articles and like things coming out.
• 11:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: And you'll see stuff written all over the place because the hype was really big and then it kind of never went anywhere.
• 11:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: And maybe the only character you remember from the Malibu Hiles is Prime.
• 11:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: They had their own cartoon, right?
• 11:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like Ultra Force and Prime was that guy that's kind of like Shazam or like he's the little kid that like amps up into the big guy.
• 11:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's like way overmuscled and kind of veiny and like smashes from shit.
• 12:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's like the Hulk story but with a kid in the middle, right?
• 12:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: But there's a lot of other characters that they really pushed for.
• 12:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: So Malibu was another break-off.
• 12:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's the creators trying to own their own stuff.
• 12:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: And the eight fathers of the Ultraverse, when you read in the early hype, is like, Mike W. Barr, Steve Engelhardt, and Steve Gerber, who were like the old classic creators, James Hudnull, George R. Jones, Larry Niven, James Robinson, and Lenst Strasusky.
• 12:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I think all of these guys worked at Marvel, and DC, at various points in different stories.
• 12:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: Do you have working relationships with any of these, any of these fellows, Terry?
• 12:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I work with Steve Gerber.
• 12:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Marvel Comics presents.
• 12:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: I hired him to write.
• 12:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was a man thing cereal there.
• 12:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I worked with Engel Hearts.
• 12:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Work with Gerhard Jones on Marvel Comics presents.
• 12:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think he did a shant of the sheet devil.
• 12:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure.
• 12:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: with Paul Galacy, huge fan of James Robinson's work, but I have not worked with him.
• 12:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so kind of an audio group, but it fell apart relatively quickly.
• 12:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: So it's 1993, I am turning 15, which is what like eighth, ninth grade.
• 13:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know where both of you were at in 1993.
• 13:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was in college so this line's up really well because that's what I moved when I started college is when I stopped reading.
• 13:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: And Terry, are you editing at the time, right?
• 13:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Was.
• 13:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
• 13:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was on staff and I was a contracted writer as well.
• 13:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: A couple of kids at home.
• 13:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: No, my first child was born in 96.
• 13:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm going to cover some of this relatively quickly because it's just a deep dive into like over-saturated kind of a hormony, ninety-three comics.
• 13:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: So there's this really interesting documentary called Tough Guys, G-U-I-S-E by Jackson Cats that's made, I think, in the late nineties, where it's the idea of masculinity and femininity.
• 13:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: And one of the things that explores is women in this era, particularly
• 13:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: are drawn with increasingly large asses and boobs with the tiniest waste possible.
• 13:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: And men are like the GI Joe thing.
• 13:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: GI Joe's originally were like normal looking soldier guys, but in this era they're like these huge massive guns and thick bite by steps and chest, the picture like cable in early expores, right?
• 14:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's just a strong guy.
• 14:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's this massive huge mussely torso and like little tiny waste some legs.
• 14:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, so like the the guys are getting bigger and the girls are getting smaller and there's so many cheese cakey huge like Scantily clad women wearing lingerie that barely cover their nipples and like volvos in some of the shots Where guys are like wearing these huge massive muscles and like holding guns between their legs that look like big penises like There's there's a bunch of this kind of art through this era, which is really interesting
• 14:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: So Steve Gerber and Paul Pellettier, who I love, are producing this book from August 1993, there's a title called The Ultraverse Exiles.
• 14:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: And the first issue is titled Amber Hunt is Mine.
• 14:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: So Amber Hunt is Malibu comics in a different way than Prime is like she's kind of the odd throughline character and she's terrible.
• 14:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's truly terrible.
• 14:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: She plays off.
• 14:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if you guys watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
• 14:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's like they're trying to play her off as like the
• 15:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: bitchy, but seems to have a heart, but Amber really only gets the bitchy part.
• 15:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: And she has some odd relationships with characters, but she's the spoiled brat.
• 15:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: Keep in mind, she's a teenager.
• 15:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's a high school student through this whole run.
• 15:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: And she's drawn like nude almost a bunch of times and like super cheesecakey.
• 15:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if you guys read Gen 13.
• 15:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: It gives me these like old Gen 13 cover vibes with like the huge breasts.
• 15:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's
• 15:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was all influenced by the image artists, by Rob Lifefeld and Todd McFarlane.
• 15:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Jim Lee, I think, was about say, did a more realistic approach, but he certainly also did the large breasts and the thin waist and all of that.
• 15:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, this is a silox bathing suit era, right?
• 15:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, or is it a ruck upper ass all the time?
• 15:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: And Arnold did bathing suit issues.
• 15:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Swim suit issues, I remember at the time, and the guys would all be wearing speedos and the women would be wearing less.
• 15:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it was all influenced by that.
• 16:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously there was a market for it sold.
• 16:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And people responded to it.
• 16:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Most of the buyers were boys, not men, not women, not girls.
• 16:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's that.
• 16:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's like you're buying a playboy in some of the shit.
• 16:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: It really is.
• 16:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's like swimsuit illustrated with like superheroes in it.
• 16:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's crazy.
• 16:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: I want to do like a whole episode of some day about like the industries of like creator ownership.
• 16:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: I also want to do another one about like those swimsuit covers.
• 16:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like there's some really wild stories to be told in this era.
• 16:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so I'm going to introduce some of the, if I remember correctly, Bobby Chase was the editor of
• 16:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: Sure, I would love to meet Bobby.
• 16:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: I've become friends with Kelly Quarvesi who also worked on some of that to Kelly.
• 16:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: Kelly told me that he was like, that we're not doing just all cheesecake girl shots.
• 16:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like there have to be boy pictures that here too.
• 16:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: And there's some truly the one image from those swimsuit specials that lives in my brain.
• 16:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's so disturbing if you look it up.
• 17:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: There's an image of name or the submariner wearing only a seashell over his penis.
• 17:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: And he's like dripping with water, but it looks like sweat, and it's like super sterile lady.
• 17:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's like a really disturbing photo.
• 17:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: Really hate it.
• 17:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: And there's another of the Punisher.
• 17:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: The guy who soon is just like the skull over his penis.
• 17:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that Punisher one was an Eric Larson drawing if I remember correctly.
• 17:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: A little speedo with just yell, God now I'm having.
• 17:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: When I was early on producing my show and we got to the first appearance of Lorna Dane, I've told the story on the show before.
• 17:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: I reached out to Jim Stranger who was like in his 80s over Twitter and I'm like, Jim, I'd love to interview you and he tweeted back at me, I'll come on for an interview.
• 17:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: If you send me some pictures of Lorna Dane in a thong and I started looking through those swimsuit specials and sure enough there's some but then I thought, that's creepy.
• 17:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to interview you anymore.
• 17:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, so ultimately I didn't go there, but there are some images of Lauren and a thong from those, from the specials.
• 18:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so in Ultraverse Exiles 1 through 4, I'll keep this focused on Amber.
• 18:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: We meet a character named Amber Hunt, who's a typical high school student.
• 18:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's making out with her boyfriend at Parkmore High School.
• 18:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: but she tries heading to class and she's just angry at everyone.
• 18:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: She calls her boyfriend a wini and tells him to choose between her and the stupid football team.
• 18:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: And she wishes the whole school would burn down.
• 18:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: And on page two, we meet, there's a guy named the Sinister Supreme Soviet.
• 18:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: Marvel did have characters called the Supreme Soviets, by the way, who tries to burn the school down and kidnap her.
• 18:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: But there's a team called the
• 18:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: excels that are there to protect her.
• 18:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: There's a tinsel who has blue skin and is like nearly naked and track, who has a costume with an arrow on his torso that's pointing to his face and dead eye, who is basically cable with a mohawk and amber wines because there's a robot that almost punches her and there's a she calls a brown girl like cow and she does a round of name calling with the Soviet calling him slime balls and a Russian butt head and she's like my god is a lawyer and you're
• 19:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: And he calls her an American winch.
• 19:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: She goes, I wish I could escape your breath.
• 19:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe you should lay off the bush.
• 19:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: And the exiles take Amber back to their ship where she meets Dr. Rachel Deming and a guy named Google and there's a girl making out with a character named Tracks who is sedated.
• 19:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: But then this Tracks guy grabs Amber's ass and she calls him a walking weasel vomit and
• 19:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: There's some villain's name, Bloodbath, and Brute, BRU-U-T, which sounds like axe-body spray to me.
• 19:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: They're working for a villain named Mr. Court, and they go looking for another kid who's been infected with something called the Theta virus.
• 19:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so Amber has this virus.
• 19:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's randomly affecting certain people and it's going to give them superpowers.
• 19:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so superheroes are looking for them because they know the powers are going to develop.
• 19:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: Amber's got the fate of Iris.
• 19:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: Her hand starts on fire when they tell her about it.
• 19:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: Fast forward to issue 4 where the story opens on a full image of Amber naked in the shower with the water rolling over her breasts and steam covering her vulva.
• 20:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's truly a shocking image.
• 20:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's shockingly pornographic because this is a teenager.
• 20:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's pissed and she's just like swearing up the storm and she's puts on like this form fitting yellow and orange clothes and she thinks it looks a little disco.
• 20:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe I'm a reject from a Janet Jackson video she thinks she puts herself in a machine to try to cure the fate of Iris but it explodes the machine and basically kills everyone on the ship.
• 20:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: And then this like weird energy force hits Amber who starts glowing with fire.
• 20:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: and she launches herself into space and that's how the series ends.
• 20:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: Here's the final narration, 18 hours ago, Amber Hunt lived under the Cheery Delusion that the relevant universe consisting of Parkmore High, the local mall, and a tight end named Kurt was hers to command.
• 20:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: Her universe was already expanded beyond what she can comprehend without pain.
• 20:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: Her arrogance has cost at least three lives.
• 20:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: She will pay for it with a torment that cuts to the very depths of her soul.
• 21:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: And then the book is cancelled, Malibu basically kind of cancels all their books and tries to relaunch them in a new title called Breakthrough.
• 21:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: We'll get there in a second.
• 21:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: This story is crazy, it's pornographic.
• 21:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: and there's so many characters that's hard to keep track of, but there's nothing more 90s than this book.
• 21:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's truly a duds.
• 21:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sorry, who wrote that?
• 21:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: That was written by Steve Gerber.
• 21:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: That, in 1993, crazy.
• 21:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't surprise me, because Gerber wrote crazy stuff, and that's what he liked to do.
• 21:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: A little surprise by the pornography stuff, but you just made that whole story sound much more interesting than I've been
• 21:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's funny you mentioned Cordelia from Ophi because I actually Amber at this point I kept thinking Daria, I don't know if you ever watched Daria on MTV, the animated series, her sister, Quinn, Quinn Morgan-Dorfer, manipulating all the guys and like like the school's literally on fire and she's just causing out these random things and I'm like this is who Amber not reminds me of.
• 21:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's a truly wild journey, and we love a bitchy character.
• 22:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like we love the Emma Frost character, for example.
• 22:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: But this girl has like nothing redeeming about her.
• 22:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: There's truly like no quality about her that is, she's name colleague, she's bossy, bitchy, and they're really trying hard to play up on it.
• 22:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: But it just is very, very unsatisfy, ultimately.
• 22:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: I really just liked it a lot, actually.
• 22:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: This was not a pleasant read.
• 22:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: Going through, I'd never read these early issues.
• 22:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'd read the Marvel stuff, but this stuff was like, wow, wow, wow.
• 22:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: So we jump over to this relaunch title, which is called Breakthrough, T-H-R-U.
• 22:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's only two issues.
• 22:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: They're trying so hard to make this happen.
• 22:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, this is when I first started picking up books.
• 22:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: I picked up X-Force off of the grocery store spinner bag.
• 22:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: That was my first comic.
• 22:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: My little sister used to pick up at this old book called The Ex Mutants, uh, that was like really, it was like from a different title.
• 22:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: So there was a bunch of stuff hitting the grocery stores in the comics, Stan's Gen 13 is in this era.
• 22:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so they burned really hard at first.
• 22:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: And now there are eight different writers on this one title, trying to do something with the Malibu properties.
• 23:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: George Perez is the Penciler on Breakthrough, which is insane.
• 23:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: So we have characters like mantra, prime, choice, prototype, hard case, Rachel Deming, alternate, solitaire, Alex Swan, Nightman, some people know him because there was a Nightman Gambit comic at one point.
• 23:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: Sludge, war strike.
• 23:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: a rune wrath Aladdin.
• 23:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: There's members of a group called solution drop kit tech outrage.
• 23:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: There's members of a group called the Stranger Lady Killer Electro Cute.
• 23:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: There's a hyphen.
• 23:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: Electro Cute.
• 23:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: Adam Baum, Zipzat Grenade Spectral.
• 23:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: There's a group called the Freaks FREX with boombox,
• 23:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: And then we have Amber Hunt, and that's just the list of good guys.
• 23:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: There are dozens of characters.
• 23:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: The villains are characters like the cult of the moon, man, and bloodstorm, not the vampire storm, who has like a metal jack, a lantern on his head, meat hook, death dance, trouble, needler, gun nut.
• 24:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: So we're on it, it identifies this as Earth 93060 and there are like 50 characters.
• 24:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: Amber is glowing, if you remember, she shot into space with the Theta virus.
• 24:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's glowing and she's returned to Los Angeles and she's been possessed by a moon entity.
• 24:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: And she's a midding dangerous levels of power.
• 24:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: So all these heroes rush to the moon and there's a big giant fight and they're trying to banish this evil entity to another reality.
• 24:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: And Amber ends up like powerless and driven mad and like literally bang at the moon at like like in a pack of wolves by the end of this.
• 24:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's truly truly insane and there's really no relevance that we need to talk about except this girl had power got possessed and now she's on earth crazy.
• 24:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's that's the through
• 24:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: uh, then we jump to Blackseptember infinity.
• 24:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: Marvel now owns the rights to the Malibu characters and they're relaunching them in a series of titles that had all Black covers.
• 24:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: And they try to mix in some of their popular characters with the altruers to make it happen.
• 25:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: So, Dane Whitman, the Black Knight is here.
• 25:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: They put the infinity gems, eating the book.
• 25:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: They are scattered through time and space.
• 25:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: And Amber becomes the recipient of the reality gem, which is very like Thanos in the Avengers comics, right?
• 25:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: So Amber is now
• 25:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: wearing like a fur dress in the woods, her mind has been restored, and she's on a quest to try to find the time gem.
• 25:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: She gets to see some other worlds, and one of them Los Angeles has been destroyed, and she's so sad.
• 25:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: In the end, she gets dumped back on Earth.
• 25:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's lost the reality stone, has no more powers, and is again driven insane.
• 25:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so moon entities and the reality gem insane.
• 25:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: I have a question about this because when I was going through this, I was like, isn't this the era where they kept blanking Carol Danverse mind in the 616?
• 25:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: I, yes, Carol has been through some shit at this point.
• 25:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's not super.
• 25:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's not.
• 25:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, no.
• 25:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just wondering.
• 25:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but I'm just wondering, like, what was happening in the zeitgeist that women are constantly being forced to forget who they are?
• 25:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: And the whole male gay is saying that you brought up and it's like, you know, there's a whole shameless plug for my coded book on Ms.
• 26:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Marvel, where you have a chapter on why you keep liking Carol Danvers and how she becomes a sex point for her.
• 26:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: all these men, but yeah, it was a bad person going through that.
• 26:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: And go back to my shows infinite infamous candy southern smart episode where we talk about the male gaze.
• 26:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's truly, yeah, it's a rough idea of the disease.
• 26:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: Do you have thoughts on Black September?
• 26:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have no memory of it whatsoever.
• 26:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think I blacked out during Black September.
• 26:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just held up this book and I noticed that I wrote it.
• 26:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have no memory of it.
• 26:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: at all.
• 26:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure that's intentional.
• 26:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: Ultra Force has been created with some of Avengers characters on it, including the Black Knight, who was a big deal in like the Avengers in this era as like an edgy science fiction kind of sword character.
• 26:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: And then we have the X-Men version of this.
• 26:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: We don't know what happened editorially here, but they've chosen the character's juggernaut, which makes sense because he's huge.
• 26:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: This is just before on slot.
• 26:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: They've chosen Reaper from the muting liberation front and then I have an episode out on Sienna Blaze who's like the Captain planet Bicci villain mixed with some Malibu characters named Shrookin strike and strike has an apostrophe at the beginning So it's like it's a big cut off and then there is the fallen moon child Amber Hunt in all new exiles infinity written by Terry Cavendock with art by MC Wyman We see Amber on fire in the wilderness.
• 27:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's gone insane and her fire powers are back
• 27:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: a strike and shrew can go after her, she like opens up with like a mushroom cloud of energy, which then connects to Sienna blazes powers on earth, which opens an odd portal that pulls her and reaper through the hole and juggernaut from another dimension.
• 27:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: And they all land on a foreign planet called GameWorld, where Amber gets to blast a T-rex.
• 27:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: And that's kind of all you need for this.
• 27:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's a weird formation.
• 27:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's that thing where like a portal opens and a bunch of characters get sucked through.
• 27:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: So now they're on a team.
• 27:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: Do you have memories of working with MC Wyman on this book?
• 27:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: None, really, but I enjoyed his work.
• 28:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I have no complaints about it at all.
• 28:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: But again, I'm thinking this might be a different Terry Cavandle that wrote this top of the aisle.
• 28:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: or bud, and I might go with that publicly.
• 28:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: You were very high one day, and just for the monthly.
• 28:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so then we have a title called All New Exiles.
• 28:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: It runs for 11 issues.
• 28:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: I was picking this book up off the stand, and like every two issues, there's a different creative team with the same characters.
• 28:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: And no one really does anything ever.
• 28:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's truly crazy.
• 28:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: So, all new exiles versus X-Men number one, we get a Dan Panosian cover, which is fun.
• 28:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: Professor X is very worried because Juggernaut is missing.
• 28:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's my only family, so he sends Gambit rogue, storm, beast, and iceman through gateways.
• 28:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: the character gateway to go to where the exiles are and there's a little fight before the mutants get sent back home.
• 28:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: And then there's a promo at the end that says watch for the Phoenix Force entering the Ultraverse.
• 28:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: So join or not and the Phoenix Force who are properties that would ideally, you know, entice readers to pick up these books and throw it into this before the new exiles title is lodged.
• 29:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: These are the ones I had in my in my collection.
• 29:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm assuming because of the crossover.
• 29:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: Any thoughts on revisiting that one?
• 29:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, I didn't remember reading into the first time.
• 29:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: I literally did not remember.
• 29:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if I just picked them up and I never actually read them.
• 29:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Or I did like Terry, it was just like, I got to blank this from my mind.
• 29:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: I cannot have space in my head for this at all.
• 29:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: The dampen ocean pencils are really pretty though.
• 29:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, you beautiful, beautiful book.
• 29:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: Terry, any thoughts on dampen ocean?
• 29:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, great talent loved his work.
• 29:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's the best I can say.
• 29:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's really it.
• 29:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: I know memory of anything to do with that.
• 29:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 29:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 29:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 29:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 29:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 29:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sorry, Tara.
• 29:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: I know you wrote this.
• 29:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: I just, it just did not stick.
• 29:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Please, I don't believe I wrote it.
• 29:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: So Terry, you're a very talented writer.
• 29:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: This is a weird book.
• 29:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: When editorial says, here's your characters, make this happen.
• 29:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like that's what you have to do sometimes, right?
• 29:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I feel like I stepped in at a certain point where they had already begun some kind of storyline, but nobody could tell me what it was or where it was supposed to go.
• 30:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I do, as I mentioned earlier, I remember very distinctly thinking, is this working toward something that I should know about?
• 30:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like the all the characters coming back to Marvel or just the Marvel characters coming back to Marvel and not knowing that I couldn't really
• 30:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: drive it forward.
• 30:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I just kept spinning wheels.
• 30:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: So teenage girl, she keeps getting possessed, powered up landing back on earth insane.
• 30:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's Amber's basically whole story, but she's the throughline through all of this.
• 30:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: And she ends up on this new team, the all new exiles.
• 30:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: Now listen to the levels of talent that come in and out of this book.
• 30:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: Many of these people I have met and respect.
• 30:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: And this is crazy.
• 30:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: All new excels number one is written by Ben Robb, uh, Black Tom Cassidy attacks and threatens Amber's life.
• 30:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: Juggernaut gets to say, we've been partners an awful long time, Black Tom, and we've been friends a lot longer than that, and we laugh all the time that their husband's in like a gay lover's on my show, which is really funny.
• 30:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, and Tom kills Amber Hunt, but turns out it's just the nightmare, but also Juggernaut is sharing a bed with Amber.
• 31:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: and it implies that they're in a sexual relationship, but it also gives it kind of a daddy teen vibe, but also they're maybe fucking, and she's a teenager, truly, truly uncomfortable.
• 31:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: We also see Sienna Blaze in a moment like walking on the character strike and drop her tail, and she's like, let's fuck big boy, and he's like, no, I am not doing that.
• 31:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: We get characters like Hellroon who shows up here.
• 31:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: In issue number two, Amber is described as, quote, an enigma in every sense of the word, with unlimited power at her fingertips.
• 31:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: And the world at her feet, this woman, this child really, remained alone in the world until falling quite literally into the arms of Cain Marco.
• 31:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: the ever unstoppable juggernaut from another world.
• 31:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, buck some team with a tiny waste with the giant mussely juggernaut guy.
• 31:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: The text calls her a child and then says she landed in the arms.
• 31:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: We've already seen her embed with him at this point.
• 31:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: But when juggernaut leaves a few issues later, Amber's like deep deep deep in that.
• 32:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: That was a Ben Robb story.
• 32:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, thank you.
• 32:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I love Ben.
• 32:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's amazing.
• 32:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: But I don't even ask him about this one.
• 32:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: But when John cannot leave the few issues later, Amber like grieves him a little bit.
• 32:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's like the only key relationship we ever see for her.
• 32:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was so freaked out by that.
• 32:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, what?
• 32:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, what she said.
• 32:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, what is going on here?
• 32:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: I thought it was like big brother, little sister, and then it became like, deeply.
• 32:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: I never read his father daughter.
• 32:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: It read more simply.
• 32:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I was like, that doesn't make it any better.
• 32:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's, it's really, really uncomfortable.
• 32:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: I, I almost want to read, I love Caine.
• 32:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: I almost want to read it as like he's formed a bond with this teen girl who's crazy and he's really worried about her because Amber also stated to be insane.
• 32:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: If we take the sexual relationship out of it and we make them like friends and he's watching out for her, it's a little more okay.
• 32:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's the canon I'm, yeah.
• 32:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a bit more Wolverine Jubilee about it.
• 32:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, but except Wolverine and Jubilee are in that and Jubilee's naked, right?
• 32:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Again, you said if we take that out, there's a little bit more Wolverine Jubilee about it.
• 33:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: I remember thinking of it as a big brother, little sister thing as well.
• 33:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, that's how I prefer to read it, I'm absolutely.
• 33:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: So Amber's powers are out of control again.
• 33:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's so tired, she gets attacked by a game in Q and Q and E. She goes with orange energy again.
• 33:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: Her hair looks like it weighs 100 pounds.
• 33:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: We get her saying back in the control of myself again, my insanity purged a good deal of my power, but I am no longer a helpless victim.
• 33:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, now the Phoenix forces in Malibuverse.
• 33:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: We have a title called Phoenix Resurrection Genesis.
• 33:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: There's a different Phoenix Resurrection title later, not the same.
• 33:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: This is written by Ian Edgington and Dan Abnett.
• 33:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: Both of you are amazing talents.
• 33:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: Terry, any comments on these two?
• 33:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, they are amazing talents.
• 33:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love Dan's work, particularly, but Ian is also, I'll read anything by those guys.
• 33:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, they're great.
• 33:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: So we get the open encode.
• 33:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: If there was sound, there would be a tempest rush of beating wings.
• 33:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: If there was heat, there would be the blistering incandescence of a furnace.
• 34:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: But in the aching silent cold out beyond the shoulder of Saturn, there is nothing except Phoenix.
• 34:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: If there is some urge that drives it back to Earth's solar system once in every passing age, then it is beyond the grasp of mankind to fathom.
• 34:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: Migratory compulsion, habit, homing instinct,
• 34:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: We see the X-Men here again, Jubilee, Roe, Wolverine, Storm, Banshee, Bishop, Beast, which is a great team and they're worried about Gateway.
• 34:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: They get yanked into the Ultraverse, but then so does the Phoenix Force.
• 34:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: So now it's over in the Mallory side of things and it's immediately attacked.
• 34:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: The Phoenix bonds with the character prime for a minute, but he's kicking the X-Men's ass already.
• 34:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: but then it leaves prime and powers up amber hunt.
• 34:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: So this is almost like it's a weird, do you remember a Captain Universe that will like possess people like paths from person to person?
• 34:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: The Phoenix is treated in a really odd way.
• 34:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's like looking for a host.
• 34:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: Jason Aaron did a recent Avengers rod where the Phoenix is hopping from person to person to person.
• 34:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like tried to find a host.
• 34:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's always a weird representation.
• 35:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: Do you want to talk about your memories of the Phoenix Terry?
• 35:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: If any, do you like the Phoenix Force?
• 35:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, of course, it was a very interesting upgrade for Jean Grey when it first happened and she needed it.
• 35:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: She was sort of the tea serving member of the X-Men until then.
• 35:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's what she used her powers for mainly that I remember.
• 35:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, nobody right strong women better than Chris Klemont.
• 35:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that was a great upgrade.
• 35:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: I know that it was Jim Shooter who insisted
• 35:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: after to be established that she ate the whole planet and broccoli people did gym shooter insisted she pay that was what led to the death of Jean Grey the Phoenix on the moon.
• 35:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: I also thought it was very clever when they wanted to bring back X-Factor and they wanted to bring her back that they established that she was in a cocoon and it wasn't her all along.
• 35:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: which took that guilt at off of her.
• 35:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: I thought that was very clever.
• 35:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you can only do that in comic books, really.
• 35:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: But we should always be taking advantage of stuff we can only do in comic books.
• 36:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's how it should be.
• 36:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: Wolverine and Deadpool are often in the 90s considered to be like way over saturated.
• 36:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: There's so many titles, so much over production.
• 36:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: The Phoenix is something that I like when it's used sparingly, but there's a period of comics where it's used so much that I find it so annoying and exhausting.
• 36:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: But that original story is amazing.
• 36:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a huge fan of Phoenix Force and I love when there's intentionality behind it.
• 36:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the bond to the gray family that keeps popping up was the grant Morrison run where we're introduced to the white room.
• 36:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: So the white hot room is originally a Chris Claremont.
• 36:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: It is from an X-Men classic, but it gets really used a lot later.
• 36:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: It craco a lip in the white hot room.
• 36:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: And the white right over there.
• 36:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: The globalization of music.
• 36:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: The black light sort of mythos.
• 36:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: Go back to the trial of Marvel girl on my show for my thoughts on the Phoenix Force, in more detail.
• 36:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: There's a very complex.
• 36:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, we got to jump to Phoenix Resurrection revelations.
• 36:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: Quote, there's a brand new star on Broadway tonight, literally.
• 37:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: Amber Hunt, Valley Girl, Jump Started Pyro-Connetic, part of the ultra-human team known as the Exiles, and for the last 30 seconds, the new host for the near mythical cosmic force known as the Phoenix.
• 37:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: Now Amber surveys the world around her with new fierce eyes, feeling the infinite calm that invests her heart and the power incarnate that boils through her frame.
• 37:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: This will do very well indeed.
• 37:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, do you remember the evil entity that possessed her on the moon in break through?
• 37:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: That entity is back and it's the one that pulled the Phoenix Force here.
• 37:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: And Amber has learned the truth about the entity.
• 37:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: Amber gets the Phoenix Force like knocked out of her, and in the end they repel the entity, and the Phoenix Force goes back to the 616.
• 37:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: And that's the whole Phoenix story.
• 37:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's wrapped up very quickly.
• 37:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm shooting over a lot of stuff, but we have another example of this teenage bitchy girl who keeps getting possessed by shit and left insane at the end.
• 37:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's true, it's truly a wild story.
• 37:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: I just feel bad for you know, I think part of the reason I think she's such a bad character is because we never see any movement.
• 38:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: If they keep being a grease center.
• 38:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: So the Phoenix also possesses Fox virus and who's basic costume.
• 38:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's another teenage girl by the way.
• 38:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: Her basic costume was like a little teeny tank top and you can see her nipples and like unzipped shorts.
• 38:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: She gets a little flared collar or truly rough.
• 38:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: Again, go look at the Gen 13 covers.
• 38:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: We jump back over to all new exiles, in Edentons, on Chris Alexander, Amber puts on like a little short red dress and her boobs are so huge and so perky.
• 38:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: And she gets the line.
• 38:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: In another lifetime, I was Amber Hunt, from Queen, more interested in my hormones.
• 38:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: I was young, I was pretty, I was an airhead.
• 38:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: So this woman has a rich interior world, folks.
• 38:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: She gets to visit the Irvingly Well, Chad.
• 38:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: You do that voice disturbingly.
• 38:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: I do a lot of character voices on my shirt here.
• 38:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: So she goes to visit the exiles, mausoleum.
• 38:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: They spar with ultra force.
• 38:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, Terry's back.
• 38:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: Odd issue number two, writing all new exiles, with a Gerald Devictoria is the pen slayer.
• 39:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: Do you remember working with Gerald?
• 39:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Nope.
• 39:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: He had this.
• 39:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: And Lashley's also here.
• 39:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: I love Ken Lashley's Excalibu work.
• 39:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I remember.
• 39:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: And Henry Martinez as well.
• 39:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: And there's an entity called the harvest created by Terry Kavanaugh.
• 39:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: The excels are vacationing in a ski town.
• 39:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: Amber breaks some dishes.
• 39:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: She uses her powers to make a fruit salad for the juggernaut, which is hilarious when he's queer.
• 39:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: They fight harvest.
• 39:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: Juggernaut gets sent back to earth where on-slop functions him.
• 39:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: In the back up story, Ben Rob shows us the exiles fighting the sentient hologram six with two X's, Amber is being super bitchy and insulting all the teammates, and now a guy named Hellblade joins the team.
• 39:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's all you need.
• 39:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: Issue three, it's David Quinn and Kyle Hots, and Amber is back in a new slutty costume with like a deep, deep V, her boobs are basically popping out.
• 39:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: In Issue 4, it's David Quinn and John Fang, and they fight a guy named Cayman, C.A.Y.
• 39:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: N.A.N.
• 39:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: in the swamp.
• 39:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: In Issue 5, it's Mark Panisha and Joyce Chin.
• 40:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: Amber is naked in bed, missing juggernaut, and basically like her nipples are the only thing covered.
• 40:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: She puts on a road that barely covers anything.
• 40:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: and her teammates like break through the wallfighting, they're fighting at Green Alien named Maxis.
• 40:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: In Issues 9 and 10 of this book, Annie Necenty is on with John Fag.
• 40:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's crazy to me.
• 40:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: We get the quote written by Annie.
• 40:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: Amber Hunt was a stuck-up cheerleading prom queen.
• 40:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: Guys, we get this narration over and over for her.
• 40:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: Cheerleading Prom Queen, which of the highest order, she was the cream on top, the icing on the cake, the flush on your cheeks, but fate in the form of a wicked little fate of Iris that plays Russian roulette with your genetic structure, turned the happy princess into a tortured firebird.
• 40:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: She became an outcast, a freak, a criminal, and exile.
• 40:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: The shock humbled her.
• 40:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
• 40:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: For a while, she was again a sweet as a young girl should be, but that was then this is now.
• 40:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: All right, Eddie Bravo, ever storms in in a little slinky red nighty who left the toilet seat up.
• 41:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: The team fights rocket and blast and lone star and velvet fist, which is the most porn comic name I've ever heard.
• 41:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: And the teammates are so horny and they fight each other and then in 11, which is the series finale, Phil Crane comes on and the exiles get defeated by the maxis.
• 41:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: The end, that's the end of the all new exiles.
• 41:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: Hussein and then Terry, what are your thoughts on just hearing the levels of talent and the inconsistency in this title?
• 41:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm willing to take Terry at his word that nobody knew where this was going, which is why you always just have to reset over and over and over and over again, because it feels without much talent, we shouldn't gotten something up.
• 41:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if anybody could have consistently stayed on it, they could have driven it forward.
• 41:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: They could have come up with their own story.
• 41:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: The editor doesn't have to.
• 41:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Isn't required to say this is where I want this book to go for the next six months or a year.
• 41:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: But you have to know if you're the writer that you're going to be on it for six months or a year.
• 41:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know that I was ever told that then maybe I just thought I was doing villains again, no memory.
• 42:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: The exiles show up in ultra force number 13 and another book called Ultraverse Unlimited 2, where they're fighting these Maxis aliens again.
• 42:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: Amber is here again, and she's nearly naked multiple times, and then this is crazy.
• 42:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: We've had all this huge talent on the book from Steve Gerber to George Perez to Anina Senti, Len Ween steps it with Mike Deodado for this last
• 42:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: And Amber gets to pose like she's naked a lot and throw some fire at people and shout things which is very Jubilee-coated like, I'll fry your candy-coated butt.
• 42:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: I fucking hate her.
• 42:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's finally in one more appearance and angels of destruction number one, which is a truly wild journey if you read it.
• 42:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: And she gets to watch TV a little bit.
• 42:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: And that's the last time we've ever, if I could see her, just truly insane, awful character.
• 42:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: But you kind of feel bad for her.
• 42:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's a teenage girl who just gets to like the narration tells us over and over how she was a bitch But her life got taken over by these entities and that's the end.
• 43:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's all that there is for her.
• 43:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: There's truly nothing What are your thoughts on this character and what makes her work or not work if anything at all?
• 43:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Don't give anybody any ideas about bringing her back
• 43:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: I just feel terrible.
• 43:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think she ever got a fair shake.
• 43:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm not eager to hear her story.
• 43:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not eager to have her back.
• 43:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: I just feel terrible.
• 43:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: She never got a chance to grow and develop as a character nor anybody else in the Ultraverse.
• 43:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: There is an all-cracket.
• 43:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: There is an amber cont joke just waiting to happen, but no.
• 43:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: When it was just it's truly terrible, I'd love to hear your thoughts briefly on the archetype of the bitchy character, Emma Frost, Monet.
• 43:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: Buffy the vampire slayer was a teenage girl being portrayed in very sexual situations quite frequently on television very popularly.
• 43:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: And we have characters in shows like Riverdale and like all these others where it's like 30 year olds playing teenagers.
• 43:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: God euphoria a couple of years ago has naked teens all over the fucking place.
• 43:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: So this trope has
• 44:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: with the male gaze and the idea of the sexualization of teenage girls.
• 44:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: But there's a level of bitchy that's fun when you have some heart to it, and then it's not fun at all when it's just bitchy.
• 44:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Personally, when I was a teenager, I thought all teenagers were possessed and bitchy.
• 44:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Guys and girls, so there's truth to it.
• 44:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll both try, I mean, I think I work a lot.
• 44:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, day job is teaching.
• 44:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've seen a shift over the years where people aren't as brutal, but there's something about being a hormonal, you know, you try to figure out who you are as a person that just lends itself to some really bad in six and bad decision making.
• 44:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm okay with that.
• 44:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's that sexualization that really gets to me and the need to sexualize.
• 44:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: And there's a reason that these actors are 20 and 30 years old is because they can't show what they show if they were really dealing with true teenagers.
• 44:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: And honestly, Tina just looked like little children still.
• 44:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's really, you know, yeah, I think there's a whole bunch of stuff we can get on to about capitalism and sexualization.
• 44:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: And it's the daddy archetype in a lot of ways, right?
• 44:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: When we go back to that candy southern book that from the 50s that we talk about in the candy southern episode, or the Terry southern book, I mean,
• 45:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: And then we compare this to the sexualization of teens.
• 45:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: The Colossus Kitty Pride conversation comes into this or Xavier having feelings for Gene in that one random issue in the 60s.
• 45:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: Or the thing's spanking Gene Gray or the invisible girl across his knee.
• 45:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like there's this odd kind of a daddy energy and Margaret in the 70s.
• 45:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: If you're watching White Lotus Season 3, there's a whole archetype of like the older man with the younger woman that's being played out in this like incredible series.
• 45:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: where one of the characters Sachsen played by Pax Patrick Schwarzenegger is like, look how hot our sister is, but I bet she's never been laid.
• 45:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like this like, this like parallel of the way we work this into storytelling and that like male gaze, thing is very, very uncomfortable.
• 45:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: But the other piece is the bitchy character, the bitchy teen, who once she discovers her sexuality, suddenly she becomes this raging, like menstrual archetype of
• 45:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: fires, blank splattering across the universe and destroying what's ever in its way.
• 46:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's truly insane.
• 46:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's like playing on the male fear of what women are capable of.
• 46:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
• 46:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: There's so much psychological shit worked into this with these scantily clad characters whose tits are hanging out.
• 46:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's just insane to me.
• 46:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Just on the flip side of the chat, I will point out in the mismarble the early mismarble run with G will will some behind it is Her initial frenemy Zoe who starts out as a blonde bitchy cheerleader archetype that you're talking about
• 46:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: And who eventually becomes, and the never sexualizer and she becomes more sympathetic and eventually when she does this cover sexuality, it's her struggle to come out because she's built herself up as the beautiful cis head blonde teenager, right?
• 46:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's it's really interesting to see that happening.
• 46:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there are also really interesting some versions of this happening too now, I think.
• 46:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: A stay tuned in my show in June, our academic panel is going to be about the character Moon Dragon.
• 46:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: The bald chick, who is super bitchy, who wears lingerie and combat, basically.
• 46:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: If she shrugs her shoulders, her boobs will be fully exposed at any moment.
• 47:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: So we'll kind of play on this, but I love that character.
• 47:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: And she's a total bitch.
• 47:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: So it kind of defense on how they're told, right?
• 47:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
• 47:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: How many kind of concluding thoughts?
• 47:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: Where's your energy out with this?
• 47:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm embarrassed to be working in comic books.
• 47:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to American 25 books where a good Lord are president has a full history of like bragging about grabbing girls by the pussy and like running the team, mis USA, pageants and walking in on the girls while they're changing and how fun that was for him.
• 47:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I mean, it's just, it's truly an archetype of capitalism.
• 47:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like, it's, it's, it's just very uncomfortable.
• 47:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so Amber Hunt, we get, uh, we get the fate of Iris, we get the Phoenix Force, we get the reality gem, and we get, uh, like, entities from other universes possessing her, and then she just fades into existence, and we will hopefully never see her again.
• 47:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: This is the most, anyone has ever thought about this character.
• 48:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: but a wild journey.
• 48:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'd love to hear how do you final thoughts, and I'm grateful to both of you for joining me on this.
• 48:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: There's like, I think you guys are like entertain, but like slightly uncomfortable, like that's the energy I'm reading, which is an interest.
• 48:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it sounds about right.
• 48:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: But interesting pulse to take.
• 48:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: I would say it's so, yeah.
• 48:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: If you have any final thoughts and then we're going to put this out in early May on the shows, Patreon, where could people find you online and anything you would like to plug?
• 48:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: Terri, I'm amused and slightly surprised that there's so little memory of working on these titles which shows me a lot about the industry at the time, right?
• 48:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: Later, it's throwing work your way and you have to take it and I think that's what happened sometimes.
• 48:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's truly truly crazy because there's no narrative control.
• 48:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: You're on for an issue and then they pass it to the next person.
• 48:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I did a long run on X man.
• 48:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: I did X man and uncanny X man with Alan Davis.
• 48:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: I did web as fight a man.
• 48:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: I remember all that.
• 48:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: I remember how the stories came about, why they came about, working with the artists.
• 49:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: This honestly until you brought this up, I forgot I had had anything to do with this at all.
• 49:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Inksmith.
• 49:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: dot com i n k s m y t h ink inks and myth it's a company how are mackey and i have and we do custom comics for people is i n gifts also i am now an executive editor for twenty four seven comics that have some kickstarter projects out there now and they're in independent publisher and then i'm working on some other projects that i can't quite talk about yet.
• 49:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm happy to see you, my friend, truly enjoyed it.
• 49:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: Have you want to thank you for trusting me with this particular person because you're like, wait, what did I fucking sign up working here?
• 49:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I say, you can find me at who's saying machines.com.
• 49:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Make sure to ask us, yeah, yeah, I'm RISH ID and on Macedon, uh, at Islamo Yankee at Macedon.Social.
• 49:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, lastly, I'm Chad Anderson.
• 49:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: I keep my own social media private because I get kiddos.
• 49:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: The two of you are welcome to follow.
• 49:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: me, but follow the show at Grimalk and Under Score Lane on Instagram and we're going to be putting out regular content creating joy in this crazy world is what my I am determined to do as I have my own big writing projects coming together separately.
• 50:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: The next episode you can watch out for on this channel is uh uh
• 50:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: a very different wild dirty.
• 50:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to go back to Master of Kung Fu and take a really crazy character called Razor Fist, who's a guy who has both arms amputated and has had the replaced by swords, but also he basically wears like the male version of Monterey into combat.
• 50:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's become kind of a mainstay in Marvel and has even appeared in some movies.
• 50:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: So we'll be talking all about that guy.
• 50:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: Over on the main show, please watch for an episode where we were talking all about storm.
• 50:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: We're reviewing a title called Aurora, before the storm, I guess on that our storm's two current writers, Mariah, Aidae, and a Jed McCay, who are both just lovely.
• 50:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: I love you both.
• 50:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you both for taking this crazy journey for me, and I hope your skin is not crawling for too much longer.
• 50:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks a lot.
• 51:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm really happy to introduce.
• 51:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm really happy I'm used actually.
• 51:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Good night, we can touch French that each for you.
• 51:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: All right, gentlemen, how's the best day?
• 51:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: We'll be in touch, dude.
• 51:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: But I think everybody for listening, and we'll see you back in next time on the Grimalk and Lane Patreon.
• 51:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: And now, stay tuned for some thoughts on fascism as a special guest and I talked about a red skull story and it's modern applications.
• 51:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: Leo Shilard, born in 1898, died in 1964, was a Hungarian born physicist whose ideas shaped the course of the 20th century.
• 51:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: It was a brilliant thinker from a very young age, and Shilard studied engineering before turning to physics.
• 51:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: Eventually studying in Berlin under luminaries like Albert Einstein.
• 51:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: In the 1920s, he became part of a vibrant intellectual community in Germany, contributing to the early concepts in nuclear chain reactions.
• 51:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: His sharp intellect and ability to think abstractly allowed him to anticipate technological developments years before they occurred.
• 51:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: But as Adolf Hitler rose to power, Shalard, who was both Jewish and deeply wary of authoritarianism, saw the existential danger that the Nazi regime posed.
• 52:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: There were years of advance warning, and a lot of people could see it happening.
• 52:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: especially if Nazi is a gained control of advanced science.
• 52:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: So this foresight set the stage for one of the most consequential defections in modern history.
• 52:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: In 1933, the same year the Hitler became chancellor, Schillerd fled Germany for Britain.
• 52:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: His decision to leave was not merely about personal safety, he was acutely aware that scientists like him could be coerced into advancing the Nazi war machine.
• 52:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: His departure was part of a wider exodus of Jewish and anti-Nazi intellectuals, a brain drain that weakened German science while strengthening the allies.
• 52:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: While Shiller managed to escape much of his family remained in Hungary, which at the time was still independent, but increasing increasingly aligned with Nazi Germany.
• 52:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: For years, Shilard worked to get his relatives out of Hungary, but many faced persecution once Hungary fell under the full German occupation in 1944.
• 53:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: Several members of his extended family parish in the Holocaust, while others endured the war under severe restrictions and constant threat.
• 53:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: But in Britain, Schillard continued his research and became convinced that a nuclear chain reaction would lead to an unprecedentedly destructive weapon.
• 53:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: When he later emigrated to the United States, he brought both his scientific knowledge and his urgent warnings about Nazi ambitions.
• 53:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: In 1939, Schillard famously co-drafted the Einstein Schillard letter to President Franklin D. Roosevelt, warning that Germany might develop an atomic bomb.
• 53:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: The letter spurred the United States to launch what became the Manhattan Project.
• 53:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: Though Shilard's work helped enable the atomic bombs creation, he grew deeply uneasy about its use, advocating for restraint, and even trying to prevent its deployment against Japan.
• 53:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: His moral stance marked him as one of the few Manhattan's project scientists, willing to challenge the prevailing wartime logic.
• 53:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: Un- Pleasant thought experiment, what if the Nazis had the bomb?
• 54:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: Before we did, even though it's use in history is still problematic.
• 54:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: After the war, Shilard shifted his focus from physics to biology, he worked on cancer research and became a vocal advocate for arms control.
• 54:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: His early defection from Nazi controlled Europe had not only preserved his life but ensured that his talents were used against the access rather than for them.
• 54:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: However, the trauma of losing his family and the Holocaust and the moral burden of his role in unleashing nuclear weapons stayed with him.
• 54:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: Schiller's life was defined by a rare combination of scientific genius and ethical foresight.
• 54:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: He was both a creator of one of humanity's most powerful technologies and a tireless campaigner against its misuse.
• 54:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: His stories are reminder that the course of history can turn on the choice of individuals who recognize danger before others do, and who act even if at great personal cost.
• 54:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: And as we've had these conversations historically, we've seen what that looks like the other direction when we hope for the best and side the wrong piece of paper.
• 54:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to jump to Captain America annual nine, part two, this is just the backup story.
• 54:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: We'll open on Senator Red Brawlston, who is a storied military veteran and a member of the Senate Defense Committee.
• 55:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: You may know him or recognize him as one of the Nick Fury's Howling Commandos for a World War II.
• 55:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: He is shot here while giving a public speech.
• 55:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: And then we take a flashback to World War II where we see one of the missions of the Howling Commandos.
• 55:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: When the Red Skull had kidnapped weapons designer Howard Stark and his wife Maria, you know, you know those names too for sure.
• 55:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: Rauston is nearly overtaken by Nazi soldiers but Captain America and Bucky are there in World War II to save the day.
• 55:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: The red skull has Howard's stark strung up against a wall.
• 55:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: He has you'll get nothing from me, fiend, and the red skull replies, ah, but I will, I will.
• 55:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not full of enough to think that a threat to your own life, or any amount of torture would make you do my bidding, but nonetheless, you would help me build an atomic weapon or your lovely wife would die horribly paying for death.
• 55:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: and he holds up a burning hot swastika brand threatening a screaming Maria Stark.
• 55:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: Cap, Vucky, and Rolston stormed the Nazi castle.
• 55:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: They saved the captive soldiers and the Starks, and they escaped in a Nazi plane.
• 56:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: All while the Red Skull is ranting and screaming, our heroes live to fight another day, and sliding timescale be damned.
• 56:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: Let me welcome my dear friend, Derek Konskin, to the show to talk to me about this crazy story.
• 56:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: Derek, are you a Red Skull fan?
• 56:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: I like to.
• 56:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: at one point that Magneto left him to die and like this cement box with just some water.
• 56:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: That conversation about shortly before this one.
• 56:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
• 56:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, no, no.
• 56:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's my favorite red skull story.
• 56:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I also liked the way if Captain America had been thought out a little later.
• 56:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: And then him and Red Skull went at it and I thought that was a great story.
• 56:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: So you have the voice where Red Skull gets his ass kicked is what you're saying.
• 56:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 56:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, kick the Nazis.
• 56:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome, my friend.
• 56:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's great to see you.
• 56:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: Let me hear some of your thoughts on Captain America annual nine.
• 56:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I remember these years, like I was buying these comics in these summer annuals were like 64 page monsters.
• 57:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like not always like the highest caliber in some of the stories, like even the X men stuff.
• 57:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: was not always hitting its high notes in these.
• 57:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if they people rush to get a material or whatever.
• 57:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: This is interesting.
• 57:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's a good story about Reb himself.
• 57:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, looking back on a character, and you have somebody who's looking at a redemption arc both, like in the past and seeing what he's made of, it's not really a story about Cap, and it's not really a story about the Red Skull, but I think it does a good job of being a story about this howling commando, who's, you know, gone on to bigger things.
• 57:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: This is a rental friend's writing and Mark Bagley on pencils.
• 57:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: I always loved it to see Bagley.
• 57:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: He draws a unhinged red skull, which is very fun.
• 57:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like the red skull looks like a red ET.
• 57:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like ET got spray painted.
• 57:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: The red skull weirdly gives me like Donald Duck energy somehow.
• 57:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's so odd.
• 57:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's just like, you know, when Donald Duck is throwing a fit at like Chip and Dale, that's how my red skull a lot of the time.
• 58:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's so easy to just like, you know, you go to the edge, you go to the edge, you go to the edge, and then like you can fall over very easily.
• 58:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, the idea of taking these old howling commando stories that were such a big deal in the 60s and then like using these characters to path bridges forward, it's fun to see like the stars, you know, the hobniving with some of the howling commando's here.
• 58:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: The continuity tions are kind of fun as well.
• 58:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: I like that at one point, like Reb is trying to redeem himself.
• 58:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: He had a moment where he just like under fire, he's like holy crap, I gotta keep my head down.
• 58:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: And he felt he was a coward when really we recognize that is like you're just a reasonable person.
• 58:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: And he's trying to redeem himself and the crew can't get into this base and Bucky is small enough to get through some bars.
• 58:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: And he's like, oh, go do it.
• 58:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: And then Reb is like, I'm also small enough.
• 58:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'd better go do it because I have to redeem myself.
• 58:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: I thought that was a great moment.
• 58:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: I like there was a clear choice.
• 58:59
  [SPEAKER_02]: He didn't need to do it.
• 59:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: He even had to argue to be allowed to do it and he did it.
• 59:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: And it turned out that him and Bucky saved the day.
• 59:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I also like myself, you know, a good Bucky story is great.
• 59:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: It always cracks me up how homo erotic.
• 59:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: All of the B scenes are in a lot of these.
• 59:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: We've got this image of, I mean, so Howard Stark is in chains, which just looks like a sex dungeon.
• 59:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: Redskull has Maria Stark pinned down.
• 59:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's got the burning Schwastika.
• 59:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: But in the background for some weird reason, there's this big mussely strong man.
• 59:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: And if you're listening, my friend, I love you.
• 59:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: But this looks like Kenny Christ, who is one of my friends through the show.
• 59:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's got his mustache and suspenders.
• 59:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: And he's just there for no reason.
• 59:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, the red skull just keeps a lot of eyes around.
• 59:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: Does Kenny not wear a shirt either?
• 59:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: Kenny is a second former who is a very ripped bald man.
• 59:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: I can see the resemblance.
• 59:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.
• 59:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, very, very silly.
• 59:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: And then we get the serious complications.
• 59:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: I opened our conversation by talking about the real story of Leo Shiller.
• 59:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think the most moving books I've read.
• 1:00:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: is the rise and fall of the third right, which is a really, really great history of like just how humanity got to this really dark place.
• 1:00:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like you're right, there were lots of signs like from 1926 Hitler had said, this is what I'm going to do if I ever get into power.
• 1:00:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: So like most people didn't take him seriously, a lot of the way people didn't take Donald Trump seriously in the US.
• 1:00:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like he's like, I'm going to do all these things and people were like, well, you know, he must be doing that just for votes.
• 1:00:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: But no, no, he's doing exactly what he's doing.
• 1:00:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: city doing and Hitler was very much the same way.
• 1:00:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: So if you took him at face value, it's like that.
• 1:00:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so, yeah, in 1933, Einstein left a whole bunch of scientists left.
• 1:00:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: And your idea about like what would have happened if the scientists had stayed there.
• 1:00:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: Luckily, I think that like Nazism and real science didn't go well together.
• 1:00:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: The Nazis purged a lot of of scientists and made them be like follow Nazi science.
• 1:00:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: rather than like science.
• 1:00:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so that really degraded the quality of the science that the Germans were able to do as time went on.
• 1:00:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's an instructive period of history for today, and I think it was a scary, well, it's all scary, but yeah.
• 1:01:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know that's Adam Bum.
• 1:01:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: its development is stuff will end up talking more about in the future because you know the despite Japan and Germany and other places committing war crimes the dropping of the atomic bomb was such an extreme response twice you know and it did end the war but there were a lot of innocence harm so the idea of science unrestrained or put into the wrong hands
• 1:01:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: I might be argued that this technology was not put into the right hands, but it would have been worse under the Nazis, right?
• 1:01:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like that's a really frightening and jarring comparison.
• 1:01:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: I've been kind of delving into the world of Nazi fiction.
• 1:01:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: What I mean by that is there's a tremendous amount of stories from like the 50s and 60s and 70s, reimagining the world like I've been reading like the man in the high castle,
• 1:01:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: or so these stories that kind of show these bizarre worlds that could have been, it's a really weird thing.
• 1:01:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: And it's really dawning on me how much the red skull and Nazi isn't plays a role in basically every comic I've ever read, because it's the baseline of evil that we measure ourselves against.
• 1:02:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think World War II really left a mark on, well, the U.S.
• 1:02:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: and Canada, I mean, we are still celebrating the things that Canadians did in World War II.
• 1:02:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think, you know, as time went out, obviously, history is written by the victors, but at the same time, there were some really evil things, evil evil things going on.
• 1:02:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so it was propaganda carried on almost as a cautionary tale in a lot of things.
• 1:02:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think also speaking as somebody who writes fiction,
• 1:02:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's sometimes you need a villain you can punch without too much explaining and Nazis are super like there's not even a shorthand you just like they're not see you can punch them it's okay there's no moral negatives to punching a Nazi especially in comic books where morality is so simplified.
• 1:02:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: especially in the 50s, 60s and so on, like it's reinforcing cycle.
• 1:02:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: The more you use the Nazis, the more they are part of the culture, you can use them again as villains.
• 1:03:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think that yeah, it doesn't surprise me at all that like your thesis that the Nazis are are pervasive.
• 1:03:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, there's, I mean, there's so many from Baron Strucker with Hydra to the more modern interpretations where we see them infiltrating the United States government multiple times or even right-wing Christianity.
• 1:03:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: These are the X-Men face again to get it again.
• 1:03:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's kind of the baseline of evil for the X-Men as well.
• 1:03:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: You're from Canada, obviously.
• 1:03:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: Just your family, have a connection to World War II lore in your family life.
• 1:03:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, totally.
• 1:03:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: My grandmother and my dad are German.
• 1:03:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so my dad was born in 1944, like you're my mom was born too.
• 1:03:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah So they were bombing the city that he was born in while he was being born and so he was born in the basement and then he was very malnourished and Like he came to Canada and they did see
• 1:03:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: like when he was 16, you know, the family story is, you know, he grew like a foot when he got here when he got like regular sort of what Canadians consider a normal amount of food and stuff.
• 1:04:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: My grandmother suffered through, you know, different, the interwar years and then also the war years and the postwar years.
• 1:04:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: So they went through it as, you know, women and children sort of thing.
• 1:04:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it really did shape a full generation of people.
• 1:04:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's close our thoughts here, just talking about the defection itself.
• 1:04:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: Defection is when you leave an oppressive system and flee to another country, because seeking asylum is one form of it.
• 1:04:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: but fleeing danger of systems is another.
• 1:04:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: And defection is usually only considered when you can provide something of consistent value to the new country.
• 1:04:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: So after Trump was elected the first time, and again the second time, there have been a lot of people leaving the country here.
• 1:04:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I've read some articles based on the idea that America's kind of losing a generation of scientists and artists because it's becoming unsafe.
• 1:04:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: What happens when education is allowed to develop at its rate, right?
• 1:05:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: So here Howard and Maria start had to be rescued, but we have a lot of real world examples where people with some influence were able to flee, but they still had to leave their families behind.
• 1:05:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I wanted to capture that energy here.
• 1:05:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: Some of the charm of the defector story is you have the villain to hero sort of thing going on, like going from there team to our team because our team is right.
• 1:05:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I mean, like it also flatters our egos that were on the right side.
• 1:05:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: Beyond defecting in the cold worsens, you've got the villains to heroes like
• 1:05:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: a more like an anti-hero or a hero in some senses.
• 1:05:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think I would I would not call that defecting, but I would say it's like the cousin of defecting sort of thing.
• 1:05:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know your your Hawkeye stories as well.
• 1:05:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: The Red Boston was around in the comics for a long time.
• 1:05:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: He died in secret of vendors volume two number three.
• 1:05:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: So he's he was around until just a few years ago.
• 1:05:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: But nearly 200 appearances for that character.
• 1:05:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's a long run.
• 1:05:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't know if you're a big howling commandos head, um, I read some I liked it and I liked the idea of, you know, in the 60s, they're like, here we go.
• 1:06:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: We have some war stories and let's connect them to the Marvel universe and like Stan was doing that with everything and I think it's hilarious that, you know, it was it was actually selling better than next.
• 1:06:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: in the Silver Age, because X-Men was at the bottom in most cases.
• 1:06:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: Right, but the origination, right?
• 1:06:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like when he's 20-year-old soldiers who wanted to read War Stories, exactly.
• 1:06:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: But, and I love what the Howling Command was became in terms of, you know, the Nick Fury agent of shield, sort of stuff, and many of them got converted over to,
• 1:06:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a really interesting way and a fun way is a reader to have like a sense of history that you're feeling like the world is much larger than just the comic book you're reading.
• 1:06:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think the Hulling Commendos did that in a way that isn't the same as the invaders.
• 1:06:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: The Hulling Commendos feels like the little rascals to me.
• 1:06:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like if there's a bunch of buddies, you know, hang it out.
• 1:06:59
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was reading some of the flashback here in that British guy that says what and carries around an umbrella.
• 1:07:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, wow, you know, pinky, live with your stereotypes.
• 1:07:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: super super gay.
• 1:07:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: I love that character actually.
• 1:07:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: Derek delightful to hang with you anytime and every time.
• 1:07:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's always fun to have you back grateful for our friendship.
• 1:07:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: Listeners in our next red skull episode, you can be prepared.
• 1:07:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not joking.
• 1:07:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: Do you remember that time the red skull and the kingpin stripped down to their underwear and had a wrestling match?
• 1:07:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: Because that's where we're going next.
• 1:07:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: So stay tuned.
• 1:07:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: I can't talk that one.
• 1:07:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: I was just wondering if Penny
• 1:07:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, you're getting some love.
• 1:07:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: I hope you're listening.
• 1:07:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: All right, everybody.
• 1:07:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much.
• 1:07:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: We'll see you back your next time Derek.
• 1:07:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much always.
• 1:07:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: Great to always find