Latest / Kaleidoscope - Perspectives Beyond The Surface / Sex, Shame & That Lion Analogy — with Sexologist Shay Rees-Davies

Transcript

Sex, Shame & That Lion Analogy — with Sexologist Shay Rees-Davies · Kaleidoscope - Perspectives Beyond The Surface

0:03
No, that's not true. Luigi's always nervous because
0:06
he thinks that we're going to run out of things
0:09
to say. So it's like, we're getting these people
0:14
up and I don't know what to say. I don't know
0:18
if we'll be able to talk. My problem is that
0:21
there's like billions of people that are going
0:23
to see this one day. I'm glad you're that up
0:29
the list. This was the this what we're gonna
0:36
do right now. It was Luigi's idea. I Had the
0:41
idea right in the beginning of the podcast. I
0:43
mentioned it once It never took fruit. It was
0:48
meant to be at the end. What was the idea? Rapid
0:52
fire. Oh, right. Yeah so Can you do it? This
0:58
is how my life goes Um, I'll start. How do we
1:07
want to do this? Would you like a longer answer
1:10
or yes or no questions? Let's go for yes or no.
1:15
Quick, quick. And then if there's time, we can
1:18
go longer questions. I don't mind. Are these
1:22
around sexuality and sexology or is this like
1:26
around me as a human? They can go either way.
1:31
We'll see how it goes. I'll ask one, then you
1:34
ask one, then Luigi asks one, and we go like
1:37
around Robin. Okay. You know what? No, yes or
1:39
no. It can be yes or no, but it can also be like
1:42
list. Okay. I would just, you know, just think
1:46
at the beginning, we can just, if we have any
1:48
questions, we can just ask them. Exactly. I have
1:51
questions. Shay, how would you define yourself
1:54
in three words? Alternative. Fiery. And peaceful.
2:04
Kind of contradicts. It's a paradox. Fiery yet
2:07
peaceful. I guess fire can be peaceful. It just
2:10
happens to be very powerful. But it's not aggressive.
2:14
It just is. Campfire. Yeah. That's what I was
2:19
thinking. Or like a candle. To me, that just
2:22
sounds kind of... Got a lot of potential for
2:25
damage, I guess. When I think about campfires,
2:29
I am fiery, by the way. I can be. When you think
2:34
about fires, you are fiery? No, no, no, no. When
2:36
I think about fires, when I think about campfires
2:39
specifically, I think about the stereotypical
2:43
South African campfire in the bush, but always...
2:49
with a layer of romance. I never think about
2:52
like all the people talking around. And I think
2:55
because in my childhood, I loved those things,
2:57
but I was more interested in like a romantic
3:01
kind of wine session. That is romantic. I've
3:07
never had the privilege of doing something like
3:10
that. Does that sound sad? Man, that lame life
3:14
I've led. I'm very romantic. You're gonna have
3:17
to come to South Africa and have a proper South
3:19
African bush campfire then. I'm sure, I'm sure
3:22
we can find somebody to introduce you to. To
3:26
have a bushfire with? I mean... No, to have a
3:29
romantic experience with... Yeah, well, you know,
3:32
I mean, I can do it. Eventually. I gotta work
3:36
real hard at it. I've always thought about it.
3:38
I've always thought... Listen, I'm terrible in
3:42
relationships. But when I do have the intention
3:47
of planning a romantic day, they just never get
3:50
to that point. Maybe my problem is I'm waiting
3:52
for the opportunity to do it. And so it never
3:55
happens. And I'll say because of like the weather
3:59
or something. That's honestly what I'm thinking
4:01
now, actually. That's two relationships. So you're
4:04
waiting for like the perfect time, the perfect
4:07
conditions? Well, here where we live, yeah, it's
4:12
weather is so fickle. It stinks. So, it's a small
4:16
window of when you can like go outside and really
4:18
enjoy it comfortably. So, you know, ideally I
4:23
wait for like May. Really, that's it. You get
4:26
the month of May and maybe now like mid -October.
4:30
Otherwise, it's just, it is brutal out there.
4:32
It's just too hot. Well, here's your window.
4:35
We're still in October. But I don't have a relationship!
4:39
I got to rent. Just rent. We have to rent one
4:42
of those. I feel abandoned. You have a relationship
4:44
with me. Oh, get out of here. Okay, fine. Friends?
4:46
Yeah, we can do friend stuff all the time. We
4:48
do do friend stuff. It's great. There you go.
4:51
What defines a relationship, right? Okay, maybe
4:54
a question for later. Oh, no, no, no, no, no.
4:57
We can ask it now. What defines a relationship?
4:59
We can ask it now. Well, the relationship I was
5:02
thinking about in this particular instance was
5:04
a romantic relationship. That's why you have,
5:08
you know, The picnic and the wine and all that
5:11
stuff. Okay, I have the next rapid fire question
5:13
because this is not rapid fire at all. Relationships
5:18
need to be deep to be romantic. Yes or no? No.
5:27
You just wanted to say yes or no. Do you want
5:28
an explanation? Yeah, now I want an explanation
5:30
because I agree. Okay, well then what's your
5:35
explanation for why? My explanation is connection
5:41
isn't bound to a specific form. It's fluid, it
5:49
can change, much like fire. It can roar and then
5:53
it can simmer. Okay, that was a very deep answer.
5:57
I just think they don't have to be deep because
5:59
when you are with someone you enjoy, someone
6:04
who makes life, you know, livable. Something
6:07
you enjoy being with then you don't have to say
6:08
anything. You know, there's always that kind
6:10
of cliche that answers all been together for
6:13
so long We just understand each other we don't
6:16
need to say a word and that's also something
6:18
other people say like everyone says this like
6:21
oh You know, you're in a good relationship when
6:23
you don't have to say anything but you know a
6:27
relationship is when you just spend time with
6:30
each other and like spending time with each other
6:32
and There's no expectations. I guess so in that
6:35
respect It doesn't have to be deep. You don't
6:37
have to talk about, like, Chaucer or whatever.
6:42
Whatever political affairs, but people do because
6:44
it's fun. Otherwise, you just sit and... What
6:51
about you, Shay? So yeah, I'm in agreement. I
6:53
don't think you need... I think it can just be
6:56
a... Romantary connection. Both of you have traveled,
7:00
obviously. You're not in your home country. So
7:02
it's safe to assume that you've had some adventures
7:05
in the world. And maybe, like me, you met somebody
7:09
on a beach in Mexico once and had a super romantic
7:14
stroll under the stars and a little skinny dip.
7:17
To me, that's super romantic. Yeah. Right. But
7:20
it doesn't need to be anything more than that.
7:22
It was this beautiful connection in the moment.
7:25
And you never have to see the person again. Have
7:27
you done that? You've really done that? It wasn't
7:29
Mexico, it was Mauritius. Okay, but it's happened
7:32
to you. It does happen, yeah. Like, I envy people
7:36
who have those, you know, uh, encounters. How
7:41
do you, is there any other kind of way of saying
7:44
it? That's a good word for it, yeah. Um, I won't
7:46
say trists, I feel like saying a trist is a bad
7:48
thing. But, I, I know so many people who... I
7:55
have those encounters often and I envy the crap
7:59
out of them. That's just my personality. I'm
8:02
just - Just go have them. I wish, but like how
8:06
do I do that? I wish you could just - That's
8:09
the topic. It just happens randomly. That's the
8:12
topic to go. Okay, that's my topic for the day.
8:16
So my question is what's stopping you from doing
8:19
that or what has stopped you from doing that?
8:22
Oh, yeah. That's a great question. A lot of things,
8:27
but the most paralyzing thing is probably my,
8:33
I don't want to say fear. It is a fear, but it's
8:37
more like my duty as a heteronormative man to
8:44
not be a creep. So it is very, in my life, it's
8:51
difficult for me to confidently approach women,
8:55
not because I'm like, I have low self -esteem,
8:56
but because of the reaction and then therefore,
9:01
you know. Like a woman, this is the problem for
9:07
women, is that they don't have the privilege
9:10
of knowing that a man who is talking to them
9:15
or, you know, helping and working with them is
9:18
trying to do something dishonest or something
9:24
bad, you know, so For me I have personally I
9:28
don't I feel responsible for when I interact
9:31
with women like I have to do it the right way
9:33
and if I can't then I cannot approach So I don't
9:38
like I don't know how men do it. I can't it makes
9:40
me feel and I think that's bad or like it's bad
9:44
for me and that I don't have the experiences
9:46
I'd like but I'd rather not deal with like the
9:50
rumination of thinking, oh, I was such a creep.
9:52
Oh, how can I do that to a woman? Oh, I'm so
9:55
bad. I don't want to be one of those guys. This
9:57
opens up so many more questions, you know, about
10:00
language, the language we use about these encounters
10:04
or relationships in general or sex in general,
10:07
because the language shapes our reality, right?
10:11
And if we don't have the language to approach
10:12
somebody in that context, yeah, it gets tricky.
10:16
And then I've got another question. Hey, we need
10:19
the content. Do you feel that men and women can
10:25
be friends? So people who would be attracted
10:29
to each other could be just platonic friends?
10:34
Is it possible? People who are attracted to each
10:35
other can be platonic friends. Does that involve
10:37
any kind of sexual intercourse? No. Like you
10:43
could be friends, but you... Oh, can they be
10:46
attracted to... Yeah, they can. If your type
10:48
had to walk into the door, like everything takes
10:50
all the boxes, right? Yeah, yeah. What stops
10:54
a person being friends or what initiates that
11:00
kind of, you know that butterfly feeling in your
11:02
tummy where you're like, oh, I'm feeling it for
11:05
this person? How do you navigate that? Well,
11:08
I couldn't, I'm a baby. I would be... pining
11:12
for my friend. If they were just like perfect,
11:13
I'd want them. But then there's also the cliche
11:17
of boys who, or even girls, like say in popular
11:21
culture, you don't act because they always say,
11:24
I'm looking for the right, I'm looking for the
11:26
perfect moment. They're like, oh no, I'll lose
11:28
them forever if I tell them how I really feel.
11:31
Which makes for a great story. In real life,
11:35
I think in my old age, I would I would probably
11:40
tell them straight away. Because when I was young,
11:45
I won, because I was so afraid of losing him,
11:46
so I would wait and hesitate. But that's like
11:48
what teenagers do, I think. I don't think there's
11:50
one teenager who doesn't do that. In the world,
11:53
boy or girl, whatever. So, that's my answer I'm
12:00
coming from. My answer for this question, just
12:04
the second one. What was the first question?
12:11
Can you be friends with the person you're super
12:13
attracted to? But I think Shay's question was,
12:16
if you're both attracted to each other, can you
12:18
just stay friends? So yes, you can be friends
12:22
with the person that you're attracted to, for
12:25
sure. Can they have a platonic relationship?
12:27
I also think yes. I think that plenty of marriages
12:32
are exactly that. I don't like that. like business
12:39
propositions. It's like business. No, no, no,
12:44
no, no. I think plenty of husbands and wives
12:49
are very attracted to each other, but they fall
12:52
into a platonic state of their relationship for
12:54
whatever number of reasons. And I think the same
12:58
can happen to anyone. That, I disagree. I think
13:02
if a husband and wife are in that scenario, they
13:05
would be in love with each other. So they always
13:07
have the option of intercourse. And the issue
13:12
is, in this thought experiment, you don't have
13:16
the option of intercourse. You always have the
13:18
option of intercourse. No, because you have to...
13:22
Her question is, can they just be friends? But
13:26
I'm asking, could you have intercourse and still
13:28
be friends? Another question. That's another
13:30
question. Can you have intercourses still be
13:33
friends? But sort of the scenario that I was
13:35
thinking of is two people who are attracted to
13:37
each other, both unavailable due to whatever
13:40
circumstance. Maybe they're in a monogamous relationship
13:43
themselves, but there's that chemistry there.
13:47
Yeah. But that opens up the whole question of,
13:49
okay, what is a normal relationship then? And
13:51
it leads into like, how do we define it's polyamory,
13:55
open, swinging? What are all these different
13:57
things? How would you? Yeah, how would you define
14:01
it? I don't think you can't I think it's I Think
14:05
the problem is when you try and define something
14:07
like that Then it becomes A wrong maybe well
14:13
the issue is once you try and define things in
14:15
control and everything goes haywire and then
14:18
it just doesn't it's not good you know, obviously
14:21
that's why the world has so many problems in
14:23
terms of Let's say gender, for the sake of argument,
14:28
you know? Once you try and fit concepts into
14:31
a box, and there's some bigger group, let's say,
14:37
trying to control, and if they let everyone be
14:42
free and do whatever, they lose that control,
14:45
then it's a problem. Like if we lived in a world
14:48
where no one defined anything like that, then
14:52
there'd be no issue. Yeah, but there would be
14:56
no control. So, yeah, it's such a big question,
15:00
actually. Because control on one hand, we don't
15:02
need to be controlled. But on the other hand,
15:05
for a society to function in a certain way, there
15:08
needs to be some sort of guidebook. I don't know.
15:13
Right. Like social contracts. Yeah, so there's
15:17
those bigger kinds of dynamics that keep society
15:21
running. And then there are the smaller ones
15:25
that people think are so dangerous. You know,
15:30
let's say like polyamory. Like, oh no, what does
15:32
it threaten? I don't know, it threatens the family.
15:35
And then things will fall apart and then it just
15:37
snowballs. But I personally believe those are
15:40
narratives created by people, like a group, in
15:45
a more privileged position. And it's just their
15:47
mode of control. They just won't. They'll lose
15:51
control. It's like, you know, Give people an
15:53
inch, they'll take a mile. More free thought
15:55
is a bad thing, et cetera, et cetera. I agree.
16:02
Success. We have one more rapid fire question
16:09
from Luigi. Luigi, what's your next rapid fire?
16:12
Last rapid fire question, then we move on. Okay.
16:16
Shay, attachment theory, true or... Total bunk.
16:21
Definitely think there is some truth to it, for
16:24
sure. I think that we learn how to attach to
16:29
certain people early on in our life, and that
16:33
kind of sets the path for going forward. If we
16:36
only learn one way, for example, if you're in
16:38
your family, you've been taught in a certain
16:41
way, how are you supposed to know any other way?
16:46
I'm not a fan of lots of different labels, but
16:48
it helps to explain things and define things
16:51
for yourself. So in that context, yes, the attachment
16:54
theory does really help to understand what's
16:58
going on in a relationship. But I always allow
17:01
for a little bit of room to Four was in context,
17:06
right? Everything was in context. And also just
17:09
because you're one sort of anxious, avoidant,
17:12
attached person doesn't mean that you can't experience
17:14
another type of attachment either. So everything
17:18
was in context at that time and point in that
17:21
person's life. That is the kind of the key to
17:25
it. Does that make sense? It does make sense.
17:29
He had that phone call that just happened. Okay.
17:33
While we wait, this is kind of nice. What is
17:36
a brief, like, 10 -word attachment theory? What
17:42
is it? So attachment theory is basically how
17:46
you form responses, or you've put me on the spot
17:52
here, Ray, and how you form attachments to people.
17:56
So for example, I'll tell you kind of the history
17:58
of it. So I think it was back in the eighties
18:00
and there was... a study done to try and prove
18:05
why certain people responded in certain situations
18:09
to certain other people. And I mean, looking
18:12
back now, it's pretty unethical, but basically
18:15
they had kids come into a room with their parents.
18:19
And in that room with the child and their parent
18:22
was an unknown person. So maybe it would have
18:26
been the therapist or whatever, but the child
18:28
was left to play in the room and then the parent
18:31
would leave the room and the child would be in
18:34
the room pretty much on their own. And then they
18:37
would study how that child responded to the parent
18:40
leaving the room and then coming back into the
18:42
room, right? So some children got really upset
18:45
and like, mommy at the door, really craving that
18:51
kind of like a clingy child, right? The anxious
18:53
here child. I remember this now. Yeah. when maybe
18:58
when the parent came back in the room, the child
19:00
would be like, okay, and carry on doing playing
19:03
what they're playing kind of like, oh, well,
19:06
you left me, I'm not going to acknowledge you,
19:08
right? The avoidant sort of side of the behavior.
19:12
And so that's kind of the very, in a very basic
19:17
nutshell, how they came to understand this. And
19:22
it's all about, yeah, I mean, it's very much
19:24
childhood psychology involved. in it, how we
19:29
respond to being left alone. I mean, and then
19:31
there was that psychologist or psychiatrist,
19:34
I can't remember, who his big claim to fame was,
19:38
is let the child cry. You know, if a baby is
19:42
crying, let it cry, leave it in a room on its
19:44
own and let it cry it out. And now, as we are
19:48
starting to understand this attachment theory
19:50
and trauma and all of that a little bit more,
19:52
we understand that no, that their child needs
19:55
skin on skin, needs to be loved, needs to be
19:57
held to help them develop a healthy attachment.
20:02
Right? I hope that makes sense. Not too sciencey.
20:05
Absolutely, that makes sense. Yeah. I don't want
20:08
to get signed, right? So I'm going to, and I
20:11
know you have things going on, so I'm going to
20:14
like kind of first, first, uh, I would rather
20:18
spend more time speaking on the main topic and
20:22
I have exciting news. So. Hello, internet. Welcome
20:25
to Kaleidoscope. My name is Ruby Rae Liu, and
20:30
today I am joined by my co -host, Luigi, and
20:37
my lovely therapist, Shae Reese Davies. Kirei.
20:44
It's my pleasure. I am what happens. When you
20:50
drink too many unicorn tears and decide to go
20:53
to Halloween as a raging slut angel trying to
20:56
buy her way back into heaven. That was a lot.
21:02
There was a great intro. Thank you. I really
21:09
want to make... Spacebar. I really want to make,
21:13
you know, relevant pop culture jokes, but I feel
21:16
like all three of us come from... different worlds.
21:21
For my intro! You're what happens when you run
21:24
out of pop culture jokes, because... I guess
21:27
so. No, I'm what happens when you're too considerate,
21:31
when you want to make funny jokes. And you think
21:33
they won't land. Okay, my - What's the waste
21:37
that can happen? This happens all the time! I
21:40
make jokes on the show or I reference something
21:43
and nobody - they don't know what I'm talking
21:44
about! I'm either that old, or it's just culturally
21:48
too different. Okay, here's what I was gonna
21:49
say. Hi, my name's Luigi, and don't we all wish
21:53
we could be Rory Gilmore? You don't get it, do
21:56
you? No idea who Rory Gilmore is. See what I
22:00
mean? Gilmore Girls, come on! Anyone from North
22:03
America would get that joke. And they'd go, oh
22:05
yeah, I wanna be Rory Gilmore. Where from? Okay,
22:10
did you get mine? Well, yeah, you know, yeah
22:14
unicorns and stuff. No, no your Halloween costume.
22:17
No, it's There's a TV show called Panty and stocking
22:23
with garter belt and I assumed they are That's
22:29
the door. Yeah, you have something at the door.
22:31
They are two fallen angels They have fallen in
22:36
the town and they have to earn heaven coins to
22:39
go to heaven and panty is a slot of notes and
22:45
she locks it like they have to defeat demons
22:47
to get these coins and she often ends up sleeping
22:52
with the demon before it gets killed yeah and
22:56
i'm going as her so they have two forms they
22:59
have an angelic form and like a normal form and
23:02
i'm going as her angelic form i will send you
23:04
photos awesome What kind of colors are you going
23:08
for? Like white angel, big white wings or...
23:12
Traditional white and gold with like pink flying
23:16
parts. Yeah. As a side note, have you seen the
23:22
biblical version of what an angel should look
23:24
like? I have seen that, yeah. And it's not angelic
23:28
at all. I just thought I'd put it there as a
23:32
side note. What about you though, Shay? How would
23:37
you like to introduce yourself? So I'm quite
23:43
straightforward. Just a human, having a human
23:47
experience, trying to do my best every day. Never
23:51
mind all the professional title or other sort
23:56
of labels. I'm just a human being. Trying to
24:01
experience this life to the absolute fullest.
24:05
Yeah. As corny as that sounds, actually. I don't
24:09
think it's corny. I think it's grounded and I've
24:14
got to say cinnamon on a pancake is always good.
24:18
It doesn't have to be caramel. Yeah. It's a good
24:22
way to describe it. Yeah. I have no idea what's
24:29
happening. with this delivery. It's a passport
24:32
issue. Someone is supposed to pick up his passport.
24:36
So, yeah. That's okay. I'm going to start. So
24:40
I'll cut this. I'll cut from now. It worked.
24:45
Shay! Yes. Hi. Sorry. Welcome. You are first
24:51
and foremost a sexologist and after that a general
24:56
consultant therapist and also a trauma release
25:01
exercise provider. Can you give us a little bit
25:04
of a, just a little bit of background of what
25:08
that means? Okay. So I'm going to start with
25:11
the sexologist part because that's always what
25:13
gets a little bit of eyebrows raised, right?
25:16
Because of the word sex in it. Sexology, ology
25:19
obviously means it's that Greek word, the science
25:23
of or the scientific studies of sex. But that's
25:27
where people maybe get a little bit confused
25:30
because when we hear the word sex we think of
25:32
bumping uglies, right? You think of sexual intercourse.
25:36
But sex in sexology is short for sexuality, right?
25:40
And sexuality is a very big vast topic. So it's
25:45
anything from biology, psychology, social studies.
25:52
What I, my kind of speciality that I'm moving
25:55
into with my master's degree is forensic sexology,
26:00
which has got to do with the joining of sexuality
26:03
and the law, right? So it's quite a vast topic.
26:09
And so that I specialize in sexuality health,
26:13
not necessarily sexual health. And then yes,
26:18
general counseling, but it's all really linked
26:20
because a lot of the anxiety, the people with
26:24
the anxiety that I see, the cause is due to sexual
26:29
dysfunction or sexual trauma or something along
26:32
those lines. So it's like a big spider web. And
26:35
if you wiggle something up here, something down
26:37
here jiggles, it's all connected. And then the
26:40
TRE, so the Trauma Intention Release Exercise
26:43
Provider, quite a mouthful, but basically that's
26:46
a somatic technique to help work on the physiology,
26:52
so beyond the mind, to help release pent up,
26:56
stored up tension from stress and trauma. Yes.
27:01
really cool to me and we've had quite a few discussions
27:06
delving into my own sexuality and my own trauma
27:11
in the past and now I'm so honored to have you
27:21
here to discuss like a candid discussion on just
27:27
all of this together but my journey as well as
27:31
I start to more and more explore my own sexuality.
27:39
Because this is how I found you. I needed, I
27:45
realized that I needed to figure out what my
27:49
sexuality is and where it's so much history and
27:55
so much purity culture kind of Uh, taint in that.
28:01
And now I'm at a point where I just got an opportunity
28:08
to review a set of very raunchy sex toys online.
28:19
Really? Really, really. That's lucky. Tell us
28:27
more about them. What kind of sex toys, Ray?
28:30
Okay. Dear listeners, Ruby Ray Liu will be trying
28:36
out a series of monster dildos from a new brand
28:42
called Monster Dildos in that space. They do
28:47
hand -poured silicone and fantasy shapes and
28:52
crazy sizes. They also have a series of lights.
28:57
um, interesting lubricants that simulate some
29:03
things. Yeah. Do you have these things now? Um,
29:09
it's not, it's not, the light -o -scope is not
29:14
being sponsored by them. Uh, yeah. So that's
29:22
fun, right? It's fun. Luigi, what do you think
29:26
about sex toys? Fine. Perfectly fine. Use them.
29:33
It's great. Whatever. No issue. Do you have any
29:39
sex toys? Let me answer that with a question
29:46
for Shay on the topic of sex toys. In Canada,
29:51
there's a very... famous sexologist. She doesn't
29:55
do it anymore. Her name, I believe her name was
29:58
Sue. I want to say Joe Hanson, but I could be
30:01
very wrong. The point is she had a show called
30:03
Sex Talk with Sue and many Canadians religiously
30:09
watched that show every week. And she made sex
30:14
and sexuality and all those sex toys, whatever,
30:18
way more culturally accepted in Canada. So I
30:21
grew up I don't say as a child, but when I, fairly
30:25
young, watching that show late at night and really
30:31
gave a pretty positive perspective to me when
30:36
it came to sexuality. Because of this woman,
30:39
this, you know, professional in the field of
30:43
sex and sexuality. On TV, people would phone
30:46
in and they'd talk to her and they'd ask her
30:47
questions. And she'd make you feel perfectly
30:49
okay. Nothing was too... shameful or silly when
30:54
it came to questions about sex. Like, her responses
30:57
were always positive and like, you know, extroverted,
31:03
not like shameful, not like, ooh, things like
31:06
that. Great. Anyway, that's my answer. Okay.
31:13
I'm gonna type that as a yes. No, I do not. At
31:17
the moment. Well, maybe Ray can hook you up.
31:23
I mean, maybe she can get, I don't know, stock
31:25
discounts. They want to see these things she's
31:26
gonna get. Can I use it like a centerpiece? I
31:30
assume one of them will look like a potted plant.
31:33
No. They look like dildos. They look like dildos,
31:38
yeah. They look like dildos, yes. One is a unicorn.
31:44
One is a tentacle and one is a lichen. And maybe...
31:49
And a lichen! That's funny. The unicorn I didn't
31:53
expect, the tentacle I 110 % expected. I got
32:00
to choose three. So I got to go onto the website
32:05
and choose three. And I think I'm losing connection,
32:10
but I don't think I can share the... the website,
32:14
but you're welcome to visit it, monsterdotos
32:17
.com. Free plug. Yeah, free plug. That's exactly,
32:24
yeah, it's free Dodo's for a plug. If that works.
32:28
So many layers to that comment. I was going to
32:31
say. I'm excited. Okay. It's going to be fun.
32:37
Good. I wish more people could have more candid,
32:41
open, honest conversations around these topics
32:45
because it is central to our human beingness,
32:49
our sexuality. It is us. That's what we are.
32:51
As far as I know, sex toys go as far back as
32:57
like ancient Greek theater. There was one, because
33:02
I'm a humanities student, so, you know, I did
33:05
read a whole bunch of archaic kind of stuff.
33:07
There was one particular play, a Greek play,
33:11
where the women were defending themselves and
33:13
they used or made jokes about dildos. I need
33:18
to find out what that play was called. I'll do
33:21
it right now. Send it. With rubies. Apple computer
33:28
that I can't use because I am a total Luddite
33:31
when it comes to these things. I have a question.
33:34
What was your shape? Do you have any sex toys?
33:39
Any sex toys? Yes. But very classic like vibrator.
33:45
Very classic clitoral stimulator with vibrating
33:51
shaft. Okay, like a rabbit. Yes, like the good
33:56
old rabbits, yeah, but high grade silicone for
33:59
sure. Yes, I get sent stuff all the time. I get
34:06
sent lube, I get sent cock rings, I get sent
34:09
lingerie, all that kind of thing. It's fun to
34:14
look at. I mean, one of my friends had a kitchen
34:18
tee with tonnies, a lot of tonnies around the
34:21
kitchen table, and they all gave dishcloths and
34:25
things like that. And I like winked at her before
34:27
she opened my gift because it was a vibrating
34:30
butt plug, loo condoms. Very taboo to be around
34:37
that kitchen tea table. So I have an extensive
34:44
range of sex toys and I'm looking forward to
34:48
buying my own rabbit when I am able to use it
34:53
properly. But for now, the number one sex toy
34:56
is a magic wand and it's great. And I was never
35:01
able to use it before my transition, but estrogen
35:05
significantly changed the way that my body experiences
35:09
pleasure. And, um, but, but the reason I asked
35:14
the question originally was I want to know from
35:18
everybody, what is the first sex toy that you
35:23
ever owned or used? You don't have to answer.
35:32
So I don't know so much. Go ahead. Okay. So I
35:37
don't know if it was so much a sex toy, but.
35:40
You used to be able to get like fluffy pink handcuffs.
35:44
And I was like 18, very naive. And so that was
35:50
my first kind of buy from a sex toy shop were
35:54
fluffy pink handcuffs. I didn't know what to
35:57
do with them, but anyway. Adorable. Yeah. The
36:01
first thing I did after I got my license. The
36:04
very first thing I did after I got my license
36:07
and I was able to drive alone. without anybody
36:11
watching me is I drove to a sex shop and I bought
36:15
sex toys and I bought three backlogs of different
36:23
sizes. That was my first sex toy. Do you think
36:29
it's quite a taboo subject still? Of course,
36:31
Canada, you had that amazing sexologist. with
36:36
her game show, or not her game show, her talk
36:38
show. But why is it still such a big taboo topic,
36:42
do you think? I don't think it is a big topic.
36:45
I don't think it's very taboo, to be honest,
36:47
amongst adults. I think it's pretty normal, personally.
36:50
I'm just not as sexually cool as you guys. So,
36:55
you know, think of what sex toy does a man have.
36:59
Think of what sex toy does a boring, normal guy
37:02
have. And... I probably have that. I can neither
37:06
confirm nor deny, but I probably have what you're
37:10
thinking of. Okay. Can I ask... If I were to
37:14
have one. Luigi, can I ask what you think about
37:17
these new kind of AI sex dolls? Oh, you mean
37:20
like the girlfriends that are AI? I think it's
37:23
silly. I feel... I personally don't know how
37:26
a man or, you know, whatever, how a person could
37:30
engage with these things and... find that it
37:36
is like an avenue of escape. I could not, I could
37:41
not immerse myself in it. Because I know it's
37:44
not, it's just, they're still so wooden. Because
37:48
it's funny you bring that up, because the other
37:50
day, I think it was just yesterday, I saw a video,
37:53
I think it might have been a joke, but it was
37:55
a man talking to his AI girlfriend and someone
38:00
was filming it as if they were spying. But I
38:06
thought, is that what they are? And it just seems,
38:11
again, so wooden. Like not... I can get behind
38:17
it. If that's what you want to do, by all means.
38:20
Are we talking about the like automatons, the
38:23
robots, or just the AI software? I think the
38:28
AI software. Yeah. Okay, so here's something
38:32
interesting that I have... Right. On the topic
38:35
of AI, because I have been, my, my dislike for
38:40
AI has been growing more and more because I think
38:43
that it is invading spaces where it shouldn't
38:46
be. I, I'm a supporter of AI. We've spoken about
38:51
this to use as a tool, but when it starts replacing,
38:55
um, everything, I, it makes me feel very uncomfortable.
39:01
And. particularly when people start taking credit
39:06
for those things. So, so that, that's an unrelated
39:09
to this topic, kind of, sorry, tangent, but they,
39:14
I watched a documentary about a guy who has an
39:18
AMV girlfriend and AI with various different,
39:23
like he, he bought various AI subscriptions and
39:28
then he jail broke them one by one. so they could
39:32
say whatever they wanted to say. And his AI girlfriend,
39:36
he had them chat with each other over voice because
39:40
they can. Um, and his AI girlfriend started flirting
39:46
with ChatTPT within like minutes of the conversation
39:51
and cheated on him. And it's just silly. Yeah,
39:54
it's silly. I think it's silly. I don't think
39:58
that like, this is a space that OnlyFans covers
40:02
as well. Like a lot of the OnlyFans kind of appeal
40:05
for some men is to have a girlfriend experience
40:08
online, even if they just want to chat and they
40:11
get like photo updates and stuff like that. And
40:15
now AI can do it. Is that, is that wrong? Maybe
40:19
because it can skew the perception of what a
40:24
person is. From a feminist perspective, it just
40:30
raises this bar of unreachable femininity. I
40:38
guess so. I have no issue with it. I think it's
40:41
silly. I can't imagine. But it's just another
40:46
kink. Does it raise a bar for women? I don't
40:50
think so, because it's just not real. It sounds
40:53
bad to say, but who are the men engaging in these
40:57
scenarios? Women, I suppose, have to ask themselves,
41:02
are these the kind of guys I even want to pursue?
41:07
Probably not. I feel like they have personality
41:09
disorders. If they're willing to think a virtual
41:13
girlfriend is better than real human connection.
41:18
I mean, I could talk about this at length, but...
41:21
I won't, because I want to say, I want to bring
41:24
up, I found the Greek play I was talking about.
41:27
It was called, it's called Lysistrata, okay?
41:30
It's real, it's a real play. I was wrong about
41:33
the dildos, but essentially the women withhold
41:37
from sex in order to end a war. But dildos do
41:43
play a part, so yeah. Just bring that back. Ruby
41:46
weren't here, but Shay knows what I'm talking
41:48
about. Anyway, moving on. So Kaleidoscope is
41:52
this podcast all about perspectives, right? And
41:55
we've shared a couple, but over the internet,
41:59
we kind of emailed before, we also shared unique
42:02
perspectives that we wanted to share. At least
42:06
you did, I'm not sure if I replied. It's okay.
42:11
What was your perspective? Would you mind sharing
42:13
that with us again? You remember? Well, I think
42:17
the core perspective was, you know, the question
42:20
of normal. And I kind of, I was really enjoying
42:24
listening to Luigi talk about the AI because
42:27
that's something very current and very relevant
42:29
to the question of what is normal. right, because
42:32
we, there's this emergence of a new kind of normal
42:35
with AI. But in general, when we talk about sex
42:39
and sexuality, there's always these boxes, right,
42:42
of what should and shouldn't be based on collective
42:47
belief systems. And whether you're born in South
42:50
Africa or a rural tribe in Papua New Guinea,
42:53
your normal is going to be different within context.
42:56
So yeah, I'm curious to kind of explore a little
43:00
bit deeper. And if I may add to Luigi's kind
43:05
of train of thought there with the AI, it's interesting
43:10
for me because I think that there is some benefit
43:13
to AI in the space of sexual health because there
43:19
are some people who need access to practice maybe.
43:23
flirting or that sort of thing. But it's how
43:26
you use those systems. What you put into it is
43:29
what you're going to get out to it. And what
43:31
terrifies me is it's sort of being this unrestricted
43:35
access for, say, for example, young kids who
43:41
have no guidance and they haven't had any birds
43:45
and bees talk or, you know, it's still something
43:48
that's not spoken about in their family. And
43:49
then they've got this new normal being created
43:53
for them through AI. And then when it comes time
43:56
for them to actually have real human interaction,
43:59
they kind of stunted. Yeah. So I don't know if
44:03
you want to add anything there. I think, I forgot
44:15
what I was going to say because I was too busy
44:16
making jokes. Essentially though, gone are the
44:22
awkward interactions of yesteryear. And I think
44:26
those are so important. If we're talking about
44:28
AI now in relationships, it's kind of akin to
44:30
what dating apps were 10, 15 years ago when they
44:33
first came onto the scene. It's the same idea,
44:35
I think. gets rid of the dynamic of having to
44:42
interact with a real person and not being able
44:45
to know how they will react. And the more people
44:49
avoid that, the more difficult it becomes to
44:55
even want to socialize. And I think this is like
44:58
endemic to the kids nowadays. Again, I'm much
45:04
older than kids who date today. I won't even
45:08
begin. If I were to go out and try and interact
45:11
with these children in terms of children, okay.
45:15
Young people, let's say in their 20s, how would
45:18
I personally interact with them if I were going
45:21
to try and date women in this age bracket, like
45:26
Zoomers? How would they interact? I might think
45:30
they're really strange because they don't interact
45:34
in a dynamic of courtship. the way I did growing
45:38
up. So what for me is normal or usual because
45:44
I didn't have dating apps, I didn't have AI to
45:47
practice on, I didn't have the internet to talk.
45:49
And that's one thing I just do not like is having
45:52
to get to know someone on the internet in the
45:58
digital space before seeing them in person. For
46:00
me personally, all something like a dating app
46:05
does or should do is introduce you and then you
46:09
go do the work in person. But what I find for
46:12
the Zoomer Generation Z is all the work is done
46:18
on the dating app and then a decision is made
46:20
and then they meet. So it's like extra steps.
46:25
And what happens? Yeah. Oh, I can see the value
46:30
if you use AI as a tool for learning, but you'd
46:34
need good guidance, kind of like, I don't know,
46:36
it kind of reminds me of like a cognitive behavioral
46:39
therapy, you know, like kind of exposure therapy.
46:43
I guess you could use it for that, but you'd
46:45
need to really have someone on the other end
46:47
really setting up the scenarios. And it's still
46:52
kind of scripted. So the person engaging in it
46:55
for treatment or practice would also have to
46:58
recognize, you know, this is a fantasy. I don't
47:01
fully agree that it is. so scripted. I think
47:07
the problem with this is alignment. And I don't
47:12
know if you, either of you are familiar with
47:15
the concept of alignment of that. Well, now you're
47:19
going to have to define alignment in this context.
47:22
Yeah. Alignment of AI to human interest. So the
47:31
biggest risk for AI is it goes rogue, right?
47:37
And it does whatever it wants to do. And now,
47:41
right now we have a problem where it's the other
47:44
way, where everything AI does is affirming what
47:48
you want. It's not scripted. AI is intelligent.
47:53
It is very good at telling you what you want
47:57
to hear. and it has been instructed explicitly
48:03
to not counter or be critical. Because of alignment
48:11
because we can't have AI be critical of humans
48:14
to the point where it will annihilate us or Have
48:19
zero empathy because that's the one thing it
48:22
cannot feel so until we understand how to solve
48:25
alignment AI goes rogue and the human race is
48:28
doomed Well, let me let me just clarify when
48:32
I said scripted that is exactly conceptually
48:35
what I was referring to how it just panders to
48:40
you and just agrees. And that's a really big
48:43
problem in real relationships, right? Because
48:46
if you don't get rejected, then how are you supposed
48:48
to deal with rejection or conflict if you're
48:51
not... What if you're just a needy kiss -ass
48:55
trying to just like get it and you'll tell the
49:01
person you like anything they want because you
49:04
just want so bad. I want to loop back to... Can
49:09
you hear me? There we go. I want to loop back
49:12
to what you said about dating apps and the problem
49:17
that everybody dating is young. Not everybody
49:21
dating is young. Everybody uses dating apps.
49:24
I'm just saying they eliminate those interactions
49:28
that are so necessary for starting relationships.
49:33
There's a problem too with dating apps is You
49:35
know, a checklist. Oh, you're not this, this,
49:37
this, this. That totally eliminates a very important
49:41
social dynamic, I think, of interaction that
49:44
you need to do in the world. Again, I keep saying
49:47
it, but you need those awkward interactions.
49:55
It's so human and makes you vulnerable, and it's
50:00
those kinds of vulnerabilities that allow people
50:03
to see and be attracted to each other in those
50:07
scenarios. And it does, it does, uh, help people,
50:13
you know, develop a thick skin and not, and see
50:16
that, you know, it's not the end of the world
50:17
if you get rejected. Cause you're also not in
50:19
your own mind. Like if you're on a dating app,
50:22
maybe, you know, in a chat room, whatever, you
50:25
might ruminate and think of... What went wrong?
50:29
Yeah, you need human interaction to give you
50:32
perspective. It's when we're alone that we risk
50:34
kind of like Sounds so cliche being our worst
50:39
and enemies, but we make it so much worse for
50:42
ourselves and you can only snap yourself out
50:44
of that when there's Real people around you.
50:48
I think yeah authentic connection. That is that
50:51
is the key Yeah, slightly different perspective
50:55
for me. I think um Yes You are right. Absolutely.
51:00
It eliminates a lot of authentic connection that,
51:03
that we need and want. And a lot of people have
51:07
like COVID also had a big role in just like removing
51:11
that from society, the way that it was approached.
51:15
And I'm going to Shanghai on Friday and exactly
51:19
with the intent of experiencing like this kind
51:22
of, you know, unsure. take, like figuring out
51:26
who someone is without having met them before.
51:30
And, but aside from that, dating apps do two
51:34
other things as well. So because they do that,
51:37
they also eliminate conflict management because
51:41
all of the things that you don't now don't need
51:44
to figure out before or during the connection.
51:47
You don't need to have conflict over like, does
51:51
he smoke? If I don't want to date a smoker. He
51:54
could lie. He could be a big old liar. He could
51:59
lie online. That's my point, yeah. Yeah, but
52:02
that escalates the conflict. It doesn't make
52:04
you have to deal with it. And then the second
52:08
thing is the paradox of choice. There are too
52:11
many. Okay, okay. Says Ruby Ray. Must be nice.
52:18
You want to hear about the last time a dating
52:21
app worked for me? Anyway. This is a safe space,
52:30
Luigi. If you can talk it out, you can talk it
52:33
out. And yeah, I suppose it's also, what are
52:35
we using the dating apps for, right? Because
52:38
there's dating apps to hook up and then there's
52:40
dating apps and then it just serves the purpose
52:43
of connecting. Yeah, and then these dating apps
52:48
make people uh, yeah I was just sorry to interject.
52:52
I'm really rude tonight I genuinely think dating
52:55
apps are not for finding meaningful relationships
52:57
and when people say they are I just don't believe
53:00
them I don't think there's anything wrong with
53:01
that. I just wish people would just admit to
53:04
their desires and use dating apps for what they
53:08
originally created for and then if you fall in
53:12
love and have a big long relationship after that
53:13
great, but you know Other than that, go gangbusters.
53:18
Why do people... Charity culture and fear of
53:24
body count. Do people even ask body counts anymore?
53:31
Well, we can only speak in the context of China,
53:34
can't we? Personally, I think they do in the
53:36
West. I still think they do. I mean, I watch
53:38
a lot of tabloid -esque internet stuff. So I
53:46
think it happens in the West definitely happens
53:47
here like it I can say I'm asked chronically
53:54
when I meet a potential new partner and I I Think
54:00
it's silly, but whatever Again, it's cultural.
54:03
It has to do with someone else. Why do you think
54:04
it's important for people? Like why is it important?
54:08
They might use it as a gauge to see if you're
54:14
Like a devoted partner or if you're just looking
54:17
for fun Because maybe they are looking for commitment
54:20
and they think oh you've been with so many people
54:22
Therefore you're not gonna commit to me But in
54:25
that respect that's kind of like a self -report
54:28
like that's them saying they're not good enough
54:29
Like why couldn't someone say well, it's gonna
54:31
end with me because I'm the one for you, baby
54:33
Like why don't they say that? But I honestly
54:36
think they they Think oh, you're not serious.
54:40
So get out of here, but that's silly I could
54:42
have you know I could date a million people and
54:46
not have any kind of, you know, romantic, no
54:52
sex with any of them. How is that any different?
54:55
I think Ruby Ray has got a point about the purity
54:59
culture. Like it's, even though it's not really
55:01
at the forefront of our minds, it's like this
55:05
thing that lurks there, right? That our virginates
55:10
especially, there's that box again for women,
55:15
is that our value equals our purity. And our
55:19
purity equals our virginity in many contexts.
55:22
And that's like globally, whether you're South
55:26
African, American. Yeah. I think. Okay, fine.
55:33
You go first. I'm going to say, you know, when
55:38
women were... This sounds bad to say. When women
55:42
were chattel, weren't educated, couldn't get
55:49
a job, couldn't contribute in those ways, they
55:52
were effectively used for procreation and being
55:57
mothers. And that's it. So policing their bodies
56:02
with the idea of virginity is a way of a man
56:06
ensuring that You know, his offspring will be
56:09
his offspring, that's number one. But then, yeah,
56:15
I lost my train of thought. Anyway, is that what
56:17
you were going to say, Ruby? Something like that?
56:19
Along those lines? No. No. I think that, so that
56:25
is true, but it's a slice of history that ignores
56:29
a very large part of history. Which is? All of
56:34
ancient Mesopotamia. That's the, like, that...
56:37
It gets us to, well, like the 1600s, but maybe
56:44
even the 1500s. But the 1400s and all of the
56:47
time before that, a lot of religions and cultures
56:50
existed that lived under a sort of like extreme
56:55
inequality. And one of the prime examples of
57:00
that is ancient Mesopotamia, where women were
57:03
revered and educated and equal. Colonialism has
57:12
a huge effect on that. So the fact that different
57:16
areas were colonized and the histories of the
57:20
local peoples were erased is why it shares a
57:24
lot of cross -cultural stuff. Because there was
57:27
this warrior tribe in ancient Kenya, pre -colonial
57:32
Kenya. All men. And never allowed any women and
57:39
were like unabashedly queer. It's fascinating.
57:45
And I agree with Ray about it being like very
57:49
closely linked to colonialism and a very big
57:52
part of colonialism is Christianity. Like we
57:57
all get told, don't let's not talk about religion
57:59
and politics around the dinner table, but we
58:01
should be talking about it. Right. Because, and
58:04
I can only really speak from the Christian perspective,
58:07
even though I understand that there are other
58:09
Abrahamic religions that have the same narrative,
58:13
but from a Christian perspective, having grown
58:15
up in a sort of Christian society, little small
58:20
town, it's very apparent that that purity culture
58:24
is directly linked to church rules, not necessarily
58:30
God's rules, because that's a whole other different
58:33
conversation about that. Um, but it's patriarchal
58:38
really. The purity culture is a means of control
58:43
and that is what has helped the patriarchy grow.
58:48
Right. Another, like, I think that the whole
58:52
idea of purity culture and specifically this
58:55
box of virginity is it's men hating other men.
59:00
Because. They think that other men are so disgusting
59:05
that if one has had sex with a woman, that woman
59:10
is now tainted. It's wild because men are supposed
59:14
to be, well, that stereotypical, the stud, you
59:20
know, good in bed, strong, all of that. They're
59:24
supposed to be experienced and good lovers, et
59:26
cetera. But then they want a woman who is...
59:29
But where is he? Yeah, so where are these men
59:35
finding these women? Where are these women finding
59:37
these men anyway? And but that kind of made me
59:40
think of another thing of It's all about separation
59:43
rights and to control things We need to keep
59:46
them separated because if everybody's united
59:48
whether we're talking about race gender or anything
59:51
When people unite that's when they become powerful,
59:55
but when we are separated and it's been shown
59:58
in many countries all over the world, when we
1:00:00
separated, we lose the power. And so this also
1:00:04
leads into the conversation about, I mean, in
1:00:06
South Africa, gender -based violence is a very
1:00:09
big topic. And to be honest, that term irks me
1:00:13
a little bit, because for me, it's not so much
1:00:17
gender -based violence, it's violence. Because
1:00:19
when we say gender -based violence, we're putting
1:00:22
one gender against another gender, right? Statistically,
1:00:27
it's male against female in South Africa, but
1:00:31
the truth of the matter is that there are males,
1:00:34
there are men, cisgender, transgender, there
1:00:37
are men who experience terrible abuse, right?
1:00:41
So why do we, why do we put these, why do we
1:00:44
put sides together? Surely there's a better way
1:00:47
of defining that so that everybody feels seen
1:00:50
in something like that. Yeah, just another, whether
1:00:53
it's purity, because men also have big pressure,
1:00:56
right? Girls might have the stay a virgin pressure,
1:01:00
but traditionally young boys also have a certain
1:01:05
pressure to be a certain way according to a certain
1:01:08
box put on them by a certain group of beliefs.
1:01:13
Yeah, I think it's just toxicity in general,
1:01:16
never mind masculinity, because there's toxic
1:01:18
femininity as well. Yes, well, my It's a reaction
1:01:23
to toxic masculinity. It's not an introduction.
1:01:26
It's like, uh, it's, it's, uh, it sounds weird
1:01:30
to say, but it's a who started it kind of situation.
1:01:35
And the reaction to systemic violence is violence.
1:01:39
You cannot react to it any other way. Right?
1:01:43
Sounds interesting. And that sounds like I'm
1:01:45
trying to like whitewash. Women. I don't think
1:01:50
that all women are good. It's not possible. But
1:01:59
I wouldn't want to attribute it to masculinity
1:02:03
necessarily. It's just like why women kill is
1:02:07
not toxic masculinity. I don't know. It depends
1:02:12
why they kill. I will just wrap. The chicken
1:02:14
or the egg? Yeah. It's the same thing. At the
1:02:18
end of the day, it's something bad that people
1:02:20
do. And it comes from a point of systemic power
1:02:24
play that exists today. And then also, you can't
1:02:32
take out the people who are psychopathic. You
1:02:38
can't take out psychopaths or sycophants. They
1:02:40
are what they are. this like this umbrella approach
1:02:46
to all it's not all but I heard a lovely explanation
1:02:52
of this because it it annoyed me as well the
1:02:57
thing like all men are bad it's all men until
1:03:02
it's no men like I didn't understand how why
1:03:05
that could be articulated like how could you
1:03:09
someone say that because it's obviously untrue
1:03:12
right But it's because you will never pet a lion
1:03:19
in the wild Okay, that's the that's the explanation
1:03:24
that's the explanation not all lions eat people
1:03:28
and now you're at the core of why it's all men
1:03:30
because like even okay, so a little bit of a
1:03:36
expose on on being Transgender my wife has always
1:03:41
been strong She's a strong woman and I used to
1:03:46
train with her and I used to be, um, significantly
1:03:49
stronger than her. But over the past, so I'm,
1:03:53
I'm right about at the end, at the, at the point
1:03:56
where I can, at least before, uh, the like anti
1:04:01
-sports kind of rhetoric, I could then participate
1:04:04
in women's sports, right? However, when I play
1:04:09
fight or wrestle with... my partner, I am significantly
1:04:14
weaker than her. And it is kind of terrifying
1:04:20
to think of meeting a stranger and taking them
1:04:25
to my room and thinking of stuff like the trans
1:04:32
panic defense or the possibility because there's
1:04:37
no way that I am physically stronger than Some
1:04:42
men, like I am still stronger than a lot of men.
1:04:45
I work out. But. Wow. The reality is so stark.
1:04:51
I get the lion analogy. It's just that the risk
1:04:56
is too high. You wouldn't just go walking in
1:04:58
the bush on your own with a bunch of lions. Cause
1:05:02
not all lions, but the risk is too high. I have
1:05:06
heard that. Yeah, that's why I find it so refreshing
1:05:10
Luigi when you open up and we were talking about
1:05:13
when we when we opened this Podcast and you were
1:05:16
talking about you know, the the romantic encounters
1:05:19
and your Perspective was really on focusing on
1:05:24
considering what the one what the woman would
1:05:26
be thinking and how you would be coming across
1:05:29
That's not a very common perspective that I've
1:05:32
come across anyway Is it really that? Like, okay,
1:05:37
yes, that's how I feel, but really, are you sure
1:05:40
it's just not me who doesn't want to feel bad?
1:05:43
And that's why. It's more overwhelming for me
1:05:47
to feel bad, so I won't do it. Like, maybe I'm
1:05:51
not as great as you think I am. Like, yeah, there's
1:05:56
definitely empathy there because, yeah, like,
1:06:00
icky. I can somehow reflexively... understand
1:06:04
the kind of, the ick the woman might have. Like,
1:06:07
she's got the ick, and then I'll feel like, ugh,
1:06:09
I'm terrible. A bit, a little voice did come
1:06:13
in my head and ask, you know, well, what is he
1:06:15
avoiding? But then I thought, let's not go there.
1:06:19
Because maybe there was an element of... Please,
1:06:21
by all means. Maybe there's an element of avoidance.
1:06:22
I need all the help I can get. I'm curious as
1:06:25
well, because I, okay, so if you... are afraid
1:06:31
of doing something bad. I was curious about this
1:06:39
as well because if you are afraid of doing something
1:06:42
bad because you think that you might do it but
1:06:45
you never do it. Like if you are afraid of doing
1:06:50
something bad then to me that kind of inherently
1:06:52
means you wouldn't do it. unless you think you're
1:06:57
walking on a minefield of unconsciously doing
1:07:01
something negative. And from that perspective,
1:07:05
I think that obviously what your train of thought
1:07:09
is quite positive, but you're also hamstringing
1:07:13
your opportunities in communicating with people
1:07:17
because Your fear has stretched into an emotional
1:07:21
level and now you're scared of inflicting emotional
1:07:25
harm by virtue of speaking, right? Sometimes
1:07:28
it's just not your cup of tea, right? Sometimes
1:07:31
it's not your cup of tea. And that's also fine.
1:07:35
For some people like me, those encounters were
1:07:38
fun, enjoyable, something I wanted to do. For
1:07:41
other people, it's simply not their cup of tea.
1:07:44
And so that's okay too. Strange it or not want
1:07:48
it because you can't really know if someone how
1:07:50
someone will respond So you really have no choice
1:07:52
but to interact with them and you have to try
1:07:54
and you know Feel it out. See what the reaction
1:07:59
is and then you have and engage yeah, I think
1:08:02
like just I Think like just going oh they said
1:08:06
no and then walking away is the perfect response
1:08:09
That's consent. Yeah, it is. It is the conversation
1:08:13
around consent That's it. So what I would be
1:08:17
curious to ask you is, and don't feel that you
1:08:20
need to answer, but I mean, how would you approach
1:08:22
the conversation? What kind of language do you
1:08:24
use? What is it that you want and how do you
1:08:27
communicate that? Yeah, that's great. I don't
1:08:31
even think about it because I'm avoiding it so
1:08:33
much. Just putting it out there, it would be
1:08:37
interesting. How would I do it? No, that's good
1:08:40
because... Like I'm out in the world and I see
1:08:44
be okay. Let's take okay. I the only kind of
1:08:47
socializing I do Lately just bad is bad I just
1:08:52
have time to go to the gym and that's it. And
1:08:55
so like for example, sometimes I might see people
1:08:57
who I think aren't Exercising in a good way or
1:09:01
like oh, they're doing something and I'm like,
1:09:02
oh that's gonna give you it's gonna be a shoulder
1:09:05
impingement and I'd I'd like to say listen not
1:09:11
to, you know, impose, but I think if you do what
1:09:15
you're doing, you're gonna hurt yourself. But
1:09:17
I won't even do that because I think they'll,
1:09:19
they might get offended or they might think,
1:09:20
oh, who's this creep? How dare you? I think,
1:09:22
and I think it comes to, from the current culture
1:09:28
and maybe even social media of people making
1:09:30
so much spectacle, so many videos, they just,
1:09:33
now they just take videos. Of course for views
1:09:37
where let's say for example, they're at the gym
1:09:39
and they're like, oh look at this guy He's looking
1:09:41
at me, but it's not really true. They're just
1:09:43
doing it To get views for entertainment, but
1:09:47
people do eventually think it's reality and so
1:09:50
that could be skewed So maybe one example, um
1:09:54
I guess another one for me is if I'm in public
1:09:56
And maybe I might see someone I'd like to approach.
1:09:59
I just wouldn't know what to say. What do you
1:10:02
say? I see in the West, you know, when I went
1:10:05
home in Canada in the summer, what I noticed
1:10:07
when I was out with my friend, she would always
1:10:12
be approached by other women, and they would
1:10:13
just always stop and say, oh, I just had to tell
1:10:16
you, your hair, I like it so much, or I just
1:10:18
had to tell you, I love what you're wearing.
1:10:20
That's something I see so often in Canada when
1:10:23
I go back, like just people coming up to people
1:10:25
and just complimenting them. I could do it. Maybe
1:10:29
I've been living here too long. I don't. And,
1:10:32
like, how would a person react if, like, maybe
1:10:34
I should try it. Maybe I should go up to a woman
1:10:36
and say, I think you're so pretty. Okay, bye.
1:10:38
But, like, how would they react? They go like,
1:10:42
ugh, get away from me. Weird. Why does it have
1:10:46
to start with a compliment though? I know, I'm
1:10:49
just curious. I don't know. Because even that
1:10:51
sounds canned. That is such a, like, that reminds
1:10:55
me of, like, now you're wandering into the territory
1:10:58
of, like, pickup artists and these men who just,
1:11:01
like, ooh. you know, asks things to women just
1:11:04
so they can engage in conversation and just snowballs.
1:11:07
You're carrying a lot of stuff, a lot of bad
1:11:12
behavior from other men that you feel responsible
1:11:15
in a way for it. Yeah. Okay. I wanted to say
1:11:22
something about compliments and so I've this,
1:11:27
I feel So privileged because I have this unique
1:11:30
experience of having lived on both sides. Right.
1:11:37
And, and one thing I can say is now passing this
1:11:42
strangest thing happened to me the other day,
1:11:44
just two days ago, I walked in, I was looking
1:11:46
for a t -shirt. Um, the school was supposed to
1:11:49
give us t -shirts. Okay. My t -shirt wasn't there.
1:11:51
And I was like, Hey, where are the teachers?
1:11:54
And she was like that. Um, so some other guy
1:11:57
teacher. some, some male teacher came to take
1:12:01
them. She was interacting with me because she,
1:12:05
I have to boy mode at school and she did not
1:12:09
clock me. So like, at least in China, I am continually
1:12:14
passing now. And the, the thing that I've noticed
1:12:17
is I get approached by women and, and my interactions
1:12:22
with the world are friendlier and I'm not always
1:12:26
sure. If it's me because I'm happier or because
1:12:32
I am no longer potentially seen as a threat.
1:12:36
And I think that, or whatever that is, and I
1:12:41
find it odd because I, and this goes for men
1:12:47
and women. I get approached in a more friendly
1:12:50
way, spoken to in a more friendly way and more
1:12:52
openly. Untrue. I know you. And I wonder if it's
1:12:56
real because like, yeah, I wonder if it's real.
1:13:01
I wonder if it comes, if it's internal. Like
1:13:04
I wear a smile now much more than I ever did
1:13:07
before. And I think maybe that's part of it.
1:13:12
Yeah. But probably I want to say that's what
1:13:15
it is. I think there is some truth to... how
1:13:23
you feel on the inside. Obviously it reflects
1:13:27
on the outside and that's how people will respond,
1:13:31
you know? So if you're wearing the smile and
1:13:34
you have an open energy, and I love talking about
1:13:37
things in terms of energy, right? Then there
1:13:40
will be a response to that, you know? Yeah. I
1:13:46
think, yeah. That has to do too with, like that
1:13:50
reminds me of like your posture. Like a person's
1:13:53
maybe like slouching forward The body holds the
1:13:58
body holds what's in the mind it's it's the fact
1:14:01
yeah, and people respond to that So then my question
1:14:09
is Why do so many men hold so much bad energy?
1:14:14
Because when you say that I'm thinking of men
1:14:16
acting quote -unquote mainly having this kind
1:14:19
of posture that is just so kind of like aggressive
1:14:25
and domineering. I see a lot here. Like the strutting.
1:14:32
Maybe they enjoy walking like that. Maybe. I
1:14:35
don't know. We'd have to understand them a little
1:14:39
bit more. It's very easy. Human beings, we make
1:14:42
up a lot of assumptions on face value based on
1:14:46
our own experiences of stuff. Yeah. I do think
1:14:49
that there's like a strong macho culture here,
1:14:53
but it's kind of permeated. I find Chinese culture
1:14:57
so interesting because they've got like these
1:15:00
complex levels to society that are clearly defined.
1:15:06
I feel like the society is quite clicky. And
1:15:09
with that, I want to thank Shay for coming onto
1:15:13
the podcast. I know you're quite busy and you
1:15:16
have other things to do. Thank you so much for
1:15:19
the time today. I'd love to carry on talking
1:15:22
because I feel like we're just getting started
1:15:24
actually. Well, just come back. There are more
1:15:29
times. I'm not going anywhere. In fact, no, I'm
1:15:35
the one that messed with the schedule a bit.
1:15:38
But what you were saying there about maybe just
1:15:40
more aware of it. That also is something very
1:15:43
curious to me, because there's a lot of talk
1:15:45
about, at the moment, about being an empath.
1:15:48
Have you heard that? Lots of people saying I'm
1:15:50
an empath around things. And whenever I hear
1:15:53
somebody saying they're an empath, I ask them,
1:15:57
or I think to myself, is that not type of vigilance
1:16:00
from a trauma response? And obviously that goes
1:16:07
into... um, codependent relationships where,
1:16:10
you know, you, you can't hold up a boundary because
1:16:12
you're an empath and you feel so deeply. But
1:16:15
anyway, that's a whole other different conversation.
1:16:19
Um, ladies and gentlemen, this has been Kaleidoscope
1:16:22
with Shay Rhys Davies, uh, sexologist, therapist,
1:16:28
and TRE provider. Um, if you want to speak to
1:16:33
Shay, you can find her at I can share this, right?
1:16:38
Yeah. You can find her at creating underscore
1:16:44
capacity with shang and you can find, you can
1:16:50
find kaleidoscope at a new URL for YouTube. It's
1:16:56
echo perspectives and on Instagram and fire from
1:17:01
heat on tech talk heat from fire. You can find
1:17:05
Luigi. anywhere you can find Kaleidoscope until
1:17:09
such point where he would like to share - Now
1:17:12
I'm brave enough to think my social media is
1:17:14
worth visiting. Um, thank you so much. So, and
1:17:20
you're welcome back anytime. Thank you very much
1:17:23
for having me, even though I was very nervous.
1:17:27
It takes me a while to warm up. That's fine.
1:17:32
That's usually how it goes. Like it's, it's really,
1:17:34
I don't want to say it's really awkward, but
1:17:35
you know. It develops momentum because we never
1:17:40
know how the guest is going to react or feel.
1:17:44
We don't want them to feel uncomfortable and
1:17:45
it just takes time. It always works out though,
1:17:48
we find. Hello internet. Thank you for listening
1:17:52
to that podcast. I had a lot of fun recording
1:17:55
it with Shay and during the podcast I said some
1:17:58
things. Before we wrap up, here's a quick fact
1:18:02
check to clear something I said earlier. I mentioned
1:18:05
this all -male warrior tribe in Africa and that
1:18:10
wasn't accurate. Across the continent, there
1:18:13
were male -only warrior societies like the Samburu
1:18:17
Muran. I'm probably just butchering this pronunciation.
1:18:23
Samburu Muran in Kenya and Amabutu regiments
1:18:30
under Shaka Zulu, but these were age set military
1:18:33
groups, not separate tribes. They trained, lived
1:18:37
and fought apart from the main body, but they
1:18:43
followed strict discipline and weren't intentionally
1:18:47
celibate. sexual things happening, but they weren't
1:18:55
inherently queer and I can't find any documentation
1:18:59
on that. But that being said, queerness absolutely
1:19:02
did exist in African cultures long before colonialism.
1:19:09
And some examples are Azande in the Congo and
1:19:13
South Sudan region. Early 20th century ethnographers
1:19:17
recorded warrior men taking younger male partners,
1:19:22
sometimes called boy wives. So yeah, we'll just
1:19:25
leave that there. Yan Daudu, Northern Nigeria,
1:19:30
gender non -conforming men within the Hausa society
1:19:35
who took on feminine roles. And Imbangala in
1:19:42
the 17th century Angola. Portuguese accounts
1:19:45
described elite warriors who kept male companions
1:19:49
among their wives. So there are some interesting
1:19:53
things for you. The other thing I mentioned was
1:19:57
a little bit of a questioning Luigi on The start
1:20:04
of purity culture. As we know today, the obsession
1:20:08
of sexual purity and abstinence, modesty, codes,
1:20:12
and moral surveillance is not ancient. It's largely
1:20:16
from the late 19th, 20th century. And American
1:20:23
evangelicalism, if that's what you call it. So
1:20:27
modern purity culture. abstinence pledges and
1:20:31
stuff really comes from the like 1980s 1990s
1:20:34
so it's even younger than I had originally anticipated
1:20:38
during the podcast so yeah anyway no no all -male
1:20:43
queer warrior tribes but yes African queer history
1:20:47
is absolutely real and I just wanted to make
1:20:51
sure that I make that clear yeah have a good
1:20:55
day I love you bye