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Polygon eyes payment business shift beyond its own blockchain · The Starting Block

• 0:06
  Welcome back to The Starting Block.
• 0:08
  Happy Thursday to wherever you're
• 0:09
  joining us from today and welcome to
• 0:11
  the show. If this is your first time
• 0:12
  here, my name is Gareth Jenkinson.
• 0:14
  I'm the host of The Starting block,
• 0:15
  head of multimedia at The Block.
• 0:17
  We've been going for a few months
• 0:19
  now and if you haven't been with us
• 0:20
  at all for the journey, I'd
• 0:22
  like to ask you to go and check out
• 0:23
  The Block's YouTube channel.
• 0:25
  If you click on the live tab there,
• 0:27
  you can scroll down and catch up on
• 0:29
  all of the episodes that we've been
• 0:30
  doing in the last three months.
• 0:32
  We've be very hard at work at the
• 0:34
  virtual show like this.
• 0:35
  And on the ground at a number of
• 0:37
  big events around the world.
• 0:39
  In the last month alone, we've
• 0:40
  traveled to New York twice.
• 0:41
  We've been to Singapore.
• 0:43
  We've being to Switzerland.
• 0:44
  We've be to Paris a couple of times
• 0:46
  this year.
• 0:47
  Very, very busy.
• 0:47
  And of course, we started everything
• 0:49
  off with a
• 0:51
  fantastic live interview in person
• 0:54
  with CZ and Abu Dhabi a
• 0:56
  few months ago.
• 0:57
  You can catch that full interview
• 0:59
  on the Blocks YouTube channel.
• 1:00
  While you're there, go ahead and
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  subscribe. And if you're joining us
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  on Xtoday.
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  I'd like to ask you to like this
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  post and retweet the broadcast
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  if you are enjoying the
• 1:09
  show and want more people to catch
• 1:11
  up on the conversation that we're
• 1:12
  having today. A little bit later on
• 1:14
  the show, we will be joined by
• 1:15
  Polygon CEO Mark Boyeron
• 1:17
  to chat about some big news coming
• 1:18
  out today, as well
• 1:20
  as a broader conversation around
• 1:22
  Polygon, the evolution of
• 1:24
  their business and what they're
• 1:25
  focusing on going into 2027.
• 1:28
  So really looking forward to that
• 1:29
  conversation. He'll be in the hot
• 1:30
  seat in a few minutes time.
• 1:32
  But of course, we'll start off the
• 1:33
  show. With the Block briefing, which
• 1:35
  is our rundown of the top stories
• 1:36
  you need to know in the last 24
• 1:39
  hours. Of course, we curate these
• 1:41
  stories from the Block's editorial
• 1:43
  coverage, straight from our
• 1:45
  fantastic newsroom
• 1:46
  full of journalists that write
• 1:48
  these articles for the Block
• 1:50
  website. If you don't already, you
• 1:51
  can go and check out the Blocks
• 1:53
  website, that's at theblock.co,
• 1:56
  easy to find.
• 1:57
  Let's jump into our first story of
• 1:59
  the day, the fight between Kalshi.
• 2:01
  And the state of Utah just got a lot
• 2:02
  more serious. We covered this
• 2:03
  yesterday.
• 2:04
  Utah's attorney general has now
• 2:06
  filed criminal charges against the
• 2:08
  prediction markets platform and two
• 2:10
  of its top executives, CEO Tarek
• 2:12
  Mansour and COO Luana
• 2:15
  Lopez Lara, accusing them of
• 2:16
  illegally promoting online gambling.
• 2:19
  And in his words, gambling is
• 2:20
  illegal in Utah whether you place
• 2:21
  that bet, run the game or promote
• 2:23
  it. It's a dramatic escalation.
• 2:26
  And just last week, Utah sued Kalshi
• 2:28
  Sivili.
• 2:29
  And the day before these charges,
• 2:31
  the CFTC sued Utah,
• 2:34
  arguing prediction markets are
• 2:35
  federal territory.
• 2:36
  So at least 10 states are now
• 2:38
  in the CFTCs crosshairs.
• 2:40
  It's getting very interesting for
• 2:42
  prediction markets over in the
• 2:43
  United States.
• 2:45
  Then Coinbase adds
• 2:47
  Ripple's RLUSD.
• 2:48
  That's the headline.
• 2:49
  Ripple stablecoin is getting a major
• 2:51
  distribution here.
• 2:52
  Coinbase is rolling out their
• 2:53
  stablecoin across its retail app,
• 2:55
  its exchange and its prime
• 2:57
  institutional platform.
• 2:59
  Customers can swap dollars or other
• 3:01
  stable coins into RLUSD
• 3:02
  one-to-one with support on
• 3:04
  the XRP ledger, Ethereum and
• 3:06
  base. Co-CEO, Brett
• 3:08
  Tegpal framed it as another
• 3:11
  step forward towards
• 3:13
  Coinbase so-called everything
• 3:14
  exchange.
• 3:15
  And the timing here is notable as it
• 3:17
  comes just after Ripple won a final
• 3:19
  approval for a national trust bank.
• 3:21
  It's the same day Moody's handed RL
• 3:23
  USD, an A2
• 3:25
  rating.
• 3:26
  RL USD has now topped $2.6
• 3:28
  billion in market cap since
• 3:30
  launching last year.
• 3:31
  So they're making some headway in
• 3:33
  the stable coin race, but still
• 3:35
  very, very far behind the
• 3:37
  big dogs, Tether and
• 3:39
  Circle and USDT and USDC.
• 3:42
  Our next headline today, Robinhood
• 3:43
  missed on earnings, but Wall Street
• 3:45
  isn't flinching.
• 3:46
  Third quarter revenue came in at
• 3:48
  $1.42 billion with
• 3:49
  crypto revenue down a steep 55%
• 3:53
  year over year to 120
• 3:54
  million.
• 3:56
  The stock dropped about 10%
• 3:58
  after hours, but analysts are
• 4:00
  looking past it.
• 4:01
  StoneX kept its buy rating and
• 4:03
  $170 target,
• 4:05
  calling the sell-off an overreaction
• 4:07
  tied to a one-time investment
• 4:09
  loss. Bernstein says Robinhood's
• 4:11
  crypto arm is morphing from retail
• 4:13
  trading into an infrastructure
• 4:15
  business and expects prediction
• 4:17
  markets, perps and Robinhood chain
• 4:19
  to drive about a quarter of
• 4:21
  revenue by 2028.
• 4:23
  Then Bitwise is doubling down on a
• 4:25
  very bullish Bitcoin call.
• 4:27
  The asset manager just raised its
• 4:29
  10-year price target to $1.6
• 4:32
  million by 2036.
• 4:33
  You heard me correct.
• 4:34
  One Bitcoin at $1,600,000
• 4:37
  by 20 36.
• 4:38
  That's what Bitwise are calling.
• 4:39
  That's up $1 3 million.
• 4:42
  That implies a 34%
• 4:44
  compound annual growth rate, roughly
• 4:46
  five times what Wall Street expects
• 4:48
  from US equities.
• 4:49
  Chief investment officer, Matt
• 4:51
  Hugen, Says he's more bullish than a
• 4:52
  year ago. Pointing to a shallow
• 4:54
  pullback, regulatory progress and
• 4:56
  demand for hard assets.
• 4:58
  The bull case here is $3.67
• 5:00
  million.
• 5:01
  The bear case of far more sobering
• 5:04
  $130,000.
• 5:06
  So a very big difference between
• 5:07
  all of those predictions that
• 5:09
  they've got in that paper.
• 5:11
  Bitcoin's currently trading above
• 5:13
  $80,000 today after
• 5:14
  a pretty rocky 2026.
• 5:16
  And back to Ripple, they're closing
• 5:18
  out 2026 with serious momentum.
• 5:20
  The company says it expects.
• 5:21
  To exit the year at $900 million
• 5:23
  annualized revenue run
• 5:25
  rate as its institutional business
• 5:27
  takes off. The number of customers
• 5:29
  using multiple Ripple products has
• 5:31
  tripled this year, spanning
• 5:32
  payments, custody, stablecoins,
• 5:34
  and prime brokerage.
• 5:35
  Its RLUSD stablecoin crossed $2.6
• 5:37
  billion in market cap, as I
• 5:39
  mentioned earlier, and the payments
• 5:40
  network is nearing $150
• 5:42
  billion in lifetime volume.
• 5:44
  CEO Brad Gollinghouse says market
• 5:46
  infrastructure is migrating to
• 5:48
  modern rails. That's one catch for
• 5:49
  holders, though. XRP is still
• 5:51
  down 30%
• 5:53
  on the year.
• 5:54
  And speaking of Brad Garlinghouse,
• 5:56
  we did actually speak to him a
• 5:57
  couple of weeks ago. We were in New
• 5:59
  York for the launch of Evernorth
• 6:01
  following their listing on the
• 6:03
  NASDAQ, and we sat down for
• 6:05
  a great conversation with Brad
• 6:06
  Garalinghouse. You can find that
• 6:07
  interview on myxhandle
• 6:10
  at Gaza underscore Jenks.
• 6:11
  If you click on the video tab, you
• 6:12
  just scroll down a little bit,
• 6:13
  you'll find that conversation with
• 6:15
  Brad garlinghouse or you can go.
• 6:17
  And catch up on our Evernorth
• 6:19
  broadcast that we carried on YouTube
• 6:20
  Annex. The easiest way to find that
• 6:22
  would be on our YouTube channel.
• 6:23
  Just click on the live tab, scroll
• 6:25
  down a little bit and you'll see
• 6:26
  that broadcast that we had live at
• 6:28
  the NASDAQ. First for us here at the
• 6:29
  block, very, very exciting
• 6:31
  times for us.
• 6:33
  A last story of the day, with
• 6:34
  midterms just days away, the crypto
• 6:36
  industry is bracing for a
• 6:38
  power shift in Washington.
• 6:40
  Prediction market culture puts
• 6:41
  Democrats odds at 64%
• 6:43
  to take the Senate and 90%
• 6:45
  for the house.
• 6:46
  That could flip Congress from
• 6:48
  writing crypto rules to scrutinizing
• 6:49
  the industry.
• 6:50
  The big question mark here is the
• 6:52
  Clarity Act, the market structure
• 6:54
  bill that passed the House but
• 6:55
  stalled in the Senate.
• 6:57
  Senator Elizabeth Warren, who'd
• 6:59
  likely chair Senate banking says
• 7:00
  she'd push her own crypto bill and
• 7:02
  could use subpoena power.
• 7:04
  Industry groups insist they'll keep
• 7:06
  pushing for legislation no matter
• 7:08
  who wins.
• 7:09
  Anthony Scaramucci spoke to us
• 7:10
  earlier this week and he had some
• 7:12
  pretty scathing words for Elizabeth
• 7:14
  Warren and her.
• 7:16
  Propose or seeming lobbying
• 7:18
  for the banking industry.
• 7:20
  So it will be interesting to see how
• 7:22
  that plays out.
• 7:23
  That is it for the Block Briefing
• 7:25
  today. We're going to be moving on
• 7:26
  to the hot seat now.
• 7:27
  We are joined by Polygon
• 7:30
  Labs CEO Mark Boyeron, a man
• 7:31
  who I've had the pleasure of meeting
• 7:33
  in person a couple of years ago and
• 7:35
  we've spoken a few times since.
• 7:37
  But this is the first time you're
• 7:38
  joining the Starting Block.
• 7:39
  Mark, it's a pleasure to have you.
• 7:40
  How are you doing?
• 7:41
  I'm doing great. Thanks for having
• 7:42
  me. Excited to be here.
• 7:43
  There's a big news coming out for
• 7:46
  both Polygon and I guess Solana
• 7:47
  today, the headline reads,
• 7:49
  Polygon brings open money stack to
• 7:51
  Solana, which connects bank
• 7:53
  accounts, crypto and global payouts
• 7:54
  through one integration.
• 7:57
  There's lot more to the news than
• 7:58
  that and I'm going to let you talk a
• 8:00
  little bit about this because no one
• 8:01
  knows the news better than you.
• 8:03
  Can you break this down for us?
• 8:05
  Yeah, sure.
• 8:05
  Like baseline on what is the Polygon
• 8:07
  Open Money Stack, right?
• 8:08
  And at the core, Polygon focuses on
• 8:11
  payments infrastructure and really
• 8:13
  being able to move money seamlessly
• 8:15
  around the world.
• 8:16
  Uh, our view is that
• 8:18
  you actually need to be able to make
• 8:19
  this easy for businesses to do.
• 8:21
  Historically, we've had like
• 8:22
  multiple integrations that frankly
• 8:24
  take months to do the open money
• 8:26
  stack is a single API where you can
• 8:28
  actually start on ramping money onto
• 8:29
  a chain, move it,
• 8:31
  go between chains if you need to
• 8:33
  hold in the wallet, burn on it,
• 8:35
  really anything that you need to do
• 8:37
  with a stable coin.
• 8:39
  You can do it through this
• 8:40
  integration.
• 8:40
  Our kind of firm belief is that
• 8:42
  while Polygon is very strong when it
• 8:44
  comes to payments as a chain,
• 8:46
  there are many chains that will be
• 8:48
  used for payments. We see many
• 8:49
  payments networks used today.
• 8:51
  Solana has many stable points, has
• 8:53
  pushed very hard in the payment
• 8:54
  space. And so what we end up doing
• 8:56
  is listening to customers, right?
• 8:58
  And so we end up having integrations
• 9:00
  for chains that customers want,
• 9:02
  right. And Solana is one of them.
• 9:03
  So we've added Solana.
• 9:05
  And so this is great, right, what it
• 9:06
  does is allows customers on the open
• 9:08
  money stack to have access
• 9:10
  to more stable coins on
• 9:12
  more different chains, including the
• 9:14
  ones where they want.
• 9:16
  This is a bit of a push to unify
• 9:18
  liquidity across chains, which we've
• 9:20
  seen quite a few different service
• 9:22
  providers in this space.
• 9:23
  Can you talk a little bit about the
• 9:24
  evolution of Polygon and moving
• 9:26
  in this direction in particular?
• 9:28
  Yeah, I think it's like when we look
• 9:30
  at chain.
• 9:30
  Chains nowadays, it's very
• 9:32
  hard to see a big differentiating
• 9:34
  factor between chains.
• 9:35
  They're all fast, they're all cheap,
• 9:38
  not all of them are reliable, but
• 9:39
  many of them are reliable.
• 9:42
  And so when you
• 9:44
  look at how you actually drive value
• 9:46
  to block space, what you realize
• 9:48
  is that you do need to do something
• 9:50
  differentiated.
• 9:51
  And our perspective is
• 9:52
  differentiation across a vertical is
• 9:54
  a very strong way to do that.
• 9:56
  And there's really only two areas
• 9:57
  where I think there's clear product
• 9:59
  market fit, it's trading and
• 10:00
  payment. Right.
• 10:01
  And so for us, we always kind of
• 10:03
  looked at it as Salon is really
• 10:05
  strong on the trading side.
• 10:06
  We're very strong on the payment
• 10:08
  side. We're not going to try to
• 10:09
  compete at the core on
• 10:11
  the trading side will compete on
• 10:13
  the payment site.
• 10:14
  And so that's really where we went
• 10:16
  and doubled down.
• 10:17
  And so our perspective is that when
• 10:19
  we as a chain focus on
• 10:21
  payments, we could create a better
• 10:22
  experience that is unique to
• 10:24
  that one. Right.
• 10:25
  So there's things like dedicated pay
• 10:27
  channels that we can create that
• 10:29
  will I would do from a cost
• 10:30
  perspective for any chain that you
• 10:32
  can imagine. I think we just
• 10:33
  announced doing 41 million
• 10:35
  TPS on these pay channels.
• 10:37
  There's no other chain that does 41
• 10:39
  million TPS.
• 10:40
  And the reality is when you're
• 10:41
  talking about agent transacting,
• 10:42
  you're going to need 41 million GPS
• 10:44
  at a certain point in time.
• 10:46
  And frankly, that can scale
• 10:47
  significantly more.
• 10:48
  So I think being able to really
• 10:49
  focus on that is important, but
• 10:52
  also meeting customers where
• 10:53
  they're at is equally important.
• 10:55
  And so my view on this is
• 10:57
  change should win based on actually
• 10:59
  being the best for their use case,
• 11:01
  right? Like I could lock Polygon
• 11:03
  in as the only chain on the open
• 11:04
  money stack and say, everybody, if
• 11:06
  you want use the open money stack,
• 11:07
  you have to use polygon as a chain.
• 11:09
  But the reality is many are going to
• 11:10
  say, I want to use Ethereum,
• 11:12
  I want to you Solana, we should give
• 11:14
  them that and only if they think
• 11:16
  that polygon is actually better
• 11:17
  experience should they use polygon
• 11:19
  for that. And that's our job is to
• 11:20
  make it a better experience.
• 11:23
  I can imagine a lot of conversations
• 11:25
  happened with key
• 11:28
  individuals in the Solana ecosystem.
• 11:30
  Is this kind of an unlock that
• 11:32
  hasn't been there before for Solana
• 11:33
  and is it more of a sort of
• 11:35
  connecting to TradFi kind of
• 11:37
  plumbing than what previously
• 11:39
  existed?
• 11:40
  Yeah, I think across the ecosystem
• 11:42
  and Solana's included, if
• 11:44
  you want to go live with stable
• 11:46
  coins, the conversation that we had
• 11:48
  with Polygon and that Solana would
• 11:49
  have as well is,
• 11:52
  I want this stable coin
• 11:54
  to be used in their case, right?
• 11:56
  I want to make payments on Solana.
• 11:58
  And what would end up happening
• 12:00
  is that you would need to connect
• 12:02
  somebody to a wallet provider,
• 12:05
  an RPC provider, an indexer.
• 12:07
  An on-ramp and off-ramps
• 12:09
  provider.
• 12:11
  And if you do care to bring tokens
• 12:13
  from other chains, then an interop
• 12:14
  provider, or if you want to accept
• 12:16
  them, right, you think of a typical
• 12:17
  checkout use case, like you want
• 12:18
  accept tokens from as many tokens
• 12:20
  as you can, from as many different
• 12:22
  chains as you get.
• 12:23
  And I think being able
• 12:25
  to do that is something that
• 12:27
  is, Honestly, we see payments
• 12:28
  companies going live in like 12 and
• 12:30
  18 months, right?
• 12:31
  Like oftentimes.
• 12:32
  And so I don't think there's a
• 12:34
  good solution, whether it's on
• 12:35
  Solana or anywhere else where you
• 12:37
  can actually take that single API,
• 12:38
  connect it and literally in a few
• 12:40
  weeks go live with a solution.
• 12:42
  And I think that is very
• 12:44
  much in need.
• 12:45
  We talk about it was about a year
• 12:47
  ago or so, a little more now that
• 12:48
  the genius act passed, right?
• 12:50
  And it opened these floodgates to
• 12:51
  stablecoins.
• 12:52
  And when you look at the growth of
• 12:53
  stablecoins, it has been
• 12:55
  good, but is it as
• 12:57
  fast as what you'd expect from like
• 12:59
  a completely revolutionary way of
• 13:01
  paying. I think the answer is no,
• 13:03
  frankly. It's been relatively slow,
• 13:05
  notwithstanding double digit
• 13:08
  and in some cases, triple digit
• 13:10
  growth in stablecoins.
• 13:11
  Frankly, for me, this should be like
• 13:13
  1,000% growth in stablecoin
• 13:15
  payments. And I think a lot of this
• 13:17
  actually has to do with the
• 13:18
  difficulty of doing that.
• 13:19
  And we've made it easy,
• 13:21
  including now bringing that to
• 13:22
  Solana so that it's easy there as
• 13:24
  well.
• 13:25
  Mark, can you talk to us a little
• 13:26
  bit about the evolution of Polygon
• 13:28
  as a company? I mean, I've been
• 13:29
  lucky enough to chat to Sandeep
• 13:30
  quite a few times over the years.
• 13:32
  And it's quite clear
• 13:34
  to see this evolution from, you
• 13:36
  know, like Mattage back in the way
• 13:37
  to what Polygon is
• 13:39
  today.
• 13:40
  Is there any kind of driving force
• 13:42
  behind the very,
• 13:44
  I mean fairly fast evolution
• 13:46
  of the company being
• 13:48
  squarely focused, you know, on
• 13:50
  like blockchain services
• 13:52
  and at one point very squarely
• 13:54
  focused on.
• 13:55
  You know, being an Ethereum L2 to
• 13:57
  this narrative behind becoming
• 13:59
  like a payments business in
• 14:02
  like an overarching theme.
• 14:04
  Yeah, I mean, I think it...
• 14:05
  Things are true.
• 14:06
  I think the space has evolved and
• 14:08
  Polygon is willing to evolve with
• 14:10
  the space, right?
• 14:10
  So I think you can look at lots of
• 14:12
  chains that, frankly,
• 14:15
  have stayed pretty stale,
• 14:17
  right? And not much has happened.
• 14:19
  And they've continued to try to be a
• 14:20
  general purpose chain that does
• 14:22
  everything.
• 14:23
  And you generally don't do
• 14:25
  anything very well when you're
• 14:27
  trying to do everything, right?
• 14:28
  So I think that's like the first
• 14:30
  evolution. I think the second one is
• 14:31
  there was a period of time where
• 14:32
  Polygon was very focused on
• 14:34
  like technology and scaling.
• 14:37
  And, you know, from my perspective,
• 14:38
  that's not honestly how you how
• 14:40
  you grow, you need to be focused on
• 14:42
  like users and products that
• 14:44
  they actually like.
• 14:45
  Right. So a lot of the evolution has
• 14:47
  been, okay, yes, we need to not
• 14:49
  just be a general purpose chain, but
• 14:50
  we also need to be able to
• 14:52
  deliver what customers actually
• 14:54
  specifically want.
• 14:55
  And so when you bring those two
• 14:57
  things together, what that
• 14:58
  automatically does is it changes,
• 15:00
  you Polygon as a company from one
• 15:02
  that needs much more specialized
• 15:03
  knowledge internally around
• 15:05
  payments, but still blockchains as
• 15:07
  well because we focus on both of
• 15:09
  those together, but also doing
• 15:11
  it in a different way that is more
• 15:12
  user-facing where you actually
• 15:14
  have the relationship of users.
• 15:16
  The example that I often give would
• 15:17
  be like a payments application on
• 15:19
  Polygon that was doing
• 15:21
  really, really well, and then
• 15:23
  another chain would come along and
• 15:24
  say, hey, if you move your
• 15:26
  volumes over here, I'll give you X
• 15:28
  dollars per $100
• 15:30
  million of volume that you bring.
• 15:32
  And we have no relationship with
• 15:34
  them, and we have no ability to do
• 15:35
  anything about that except
• 15:37
  say, no, no.
• 15:38
  I'll pay you more.
• 15:40
  And the reason would be because
• 15:42
  they didn't have a reason to be
• 15:43
  here. And now they do have a
• 15:45
  reason, right. They have a reason
• 15:46
  which is, you know, our integration
• 15:48
  makes it really, really easy.
• 15:50
  Now, that's true across many chains,
• 15:52
  we just brought it obviously to
• 15:53
  Sloan as well.
• 15:54
  But number two is there's things
• 15:56
  that we've done unique on the chain
• 15:57
  to actually make that better for
• 15:59
  payments that actually, you know,
• 16:01
  whether it's it's the privacy that
• 16:02
  they can get, or the TPS that I was
• 16:04
  talking about earlier, being
• 16:06
  able to reserve a certain amount of
• 16:08
  block space, things of this nature
• 16:10
  that you know payments companies
• 16:11
  actually want.
• 16:12
  And now were able to give those
• 16:13
  things. And that's really kind of
• 16:15
  the big part of the evolution, like
• 16:17
  give customers what they actually
• 16:18
  want rather than just a piece
• 16:20
  of infrastructure that they can.
• 16:22
  Use if they feel like using it.
• 16:24
  Does this put you in a better
• 16:25
  position to even, you know, compete
• 16:26
  with the likes of like Ethereum,
• 16:28
  you know, you, you the second
• 16:30
  biggest L one out there.
• 16:31
  If we just discount Bitcoin, cause
• 16:33
  it's not, it's, it it's really cut
• 16:34
  from a different cloth, but is, is
• 16:36
  that kind of the directionality
• 16:37
  here? Cause I could imagine there's
• 16:39
  lots of people just even in that the
• 16:40
  main Ethereum ecosystem that are
• 16:42
  trying to position it this
• 16:44
  way as well as this chain serves
• 16:46
  that purpose and you can do many
• 16:47
  things on Ethereum.
• 16:49
  It's it sounds like you guys are
• 16:50
  trying to do the same thing now.
• 16:51
  Is the race kind of wide open for
• 16:53
  every single L1 and some L2s,
• 16:56
  if you look at the technical
• 16:58
  specifications, to be
• 16:59
  in the same competition for
• 17:01
  attracting, you know, TradFi and
• 17:02
  businesses to come and do all the
• 17:04
  work on your infrastructure?
• 17:07
  Yeah, I actually tweeted the
• 17:09
  other day, something along the lines
• 17:10
  of I don't even compete with
• 17:12
  blockchains anymore.
• 17:13
  Something along those lines.
• 17:14
  Um, and, and this doesn't mean that
• 17:16
  I don't want Polygon to be the most
• 17:18
  used chain that
• 17:20
  exists out there, but it's
• 17:22
  more about what, what I was trying
• 17:23
  to say in that was saying that we
• 17:25
  are so unique in terms of how
• 17:27
  we focus on things.
• 17:29
  So like, I think if you were to,
• 17:31
  I think it would be more accurate to
• 17:32
  say like, Polygon might compete
• 17:34
  with like Tempo, for example.
• 17:37
  Now there's a world of difference
• 17:39
  between the two, but they compete
• 17:40
  nonetheless.
• 17:41
  But when I think of like Solana, I
• 17:43
  feel like it's amazing
• 17:45
  for trading.
• 17:46
  Right?
• 17:47
  I think of Ethereum
• 17:49
  amazing for like depth of liquidity
• 17:51
  and being able like if
• 17:54
  I want to execute a big trade, I'm
• 17:55
  going to go like execute that big
• 17:57
  trade on Ethereum, right?
• 17:58
  If I think of Bitcoin, I am going to
• 18:00
  think of it as like I'm just going
• 18:01
  to hold this thing forever and
• 18:03
  like there's different use
• 18:05
  cases for different things.
• 18:06
  And so I don't think of myself
• 18:08
  as competing with Ethereum at all.
• 18:11
  I don't really even, a lot of people
• 18:13
  think of like Polygon is competing
• 18:14
  with Solana. I don't really view
• 18:15
  myself as compete with Solanna.
• 18:17
  I think there's like a very narrow
• 18:19
  set of players that
• 18:21
  we compete with.
• 18:22
  And I really think of competing
• 18:24
  with them like on the payments layer
• 18:26
  more than it is on the blockchain,
• 18:27
  just happens to be that we
• 18:29
  have a blockchain that's like
• 18:30
  amazing for the money movement.
• 18:32
  And so I think a lot of
• 18:34
  folks should use it for that
• 18:35
  purpose, but that's really
• 18:37
  not where we're competing.
• 18:40
  And you've managed to kind of
• 18:41
  consolidate quite a few things in
• 18:42
  the last year or two.
• 18:43
  I mean, I stand to be corrected, but
• 18:44
  I think, you know, Polygon's EKVM
• 18:47
  was sunset.
• 18:48
  A few things like that.
• 18:49
  Can you talk a little bit about
• 18:50
  consolidating and making
• 18:52
  things a lot more kind of mission
• 18:53
  focused?
• 18:55
  Yeah, this is like this is something
• 18:56
  that I've done over the last few
• 18:58
  years, frankly, at Polygon,
• 19:00
  right? There is there's a lot that
• 19:01
  we were doing and a lot of that was
• 19:03
  narrowing it down.
• 19:04
  So we've we've spun off a lot of
• 19:05
  companies trying to like narrow down
• 19:06
  what we have.
• 19:08
  Some of them, it's really cool to
• 19:09
  see them go live, like Myden just
• 19:11
  went live. It's a very
• 19:12
  privacy-focused
• 19:14
  chain that I think is gonna be
• 19:16
  super, super exciting.
• 19:17
  And so love seeing things like that
• 19:19
  kind of come out of the work that
• 19:21
  we did.
• 19:22
  And some of it is shutting down
• 19:23
  stuff that we we did, and there's
• 19:25
  several things, frankly, that we've
• 19:27
  tried that haven't worked out and
• 19:28
  that we shut down.
• 19:30
  I think crypto is really interesting
• 19:32
  in this way.
• 19:33
  I think chains five
• 19:35
  years ago were pieces of
• 19:37
  infrastructure that should like
• 19:38
  never, ever go away.
• 19:40
  I view chains today with
• 19:41
  few exceptions as effectively being
• 19:44
  no different than an app in
• 19:45
  some way, right?
• 19:47
  And like apps, you launch them and
• 19:48
  some succeed and some fail, right.
• 19:51
  And so like in case of like Polygon
• 19:52
  ZKVM, it was like launching
• 19:54
  something and it's like, it didn't
• 19:55
  work out. So you shut it down and
• 19:57
  you move on and you try something
• 19:58
  else, right and so that's
• 20:01
  kind of how I see it. A lot of it
• 20:02
  has just been narrowed that focus to
• 20:04
  the payment side and either
• 20:06
  deprecate or spin off
• 20:08
  the areas that weren't strategic for
• 20:10
  us.
• 20:11
  I saw an interesting tweet this
• 20:13
  morning, I can't remember exactly
• 20:15
  who it was, who kind of took a
• 20:17
  shot at Polygon because it was like
• 20:18
  a tweet of a comment of the Polygon
• 20:21
  account on something related to
• 20:22
  Solana and they're like, I don't
• 20:23
  take, you know, Polygon seriously.
• 20:25
  No one's built any like serious apps
• 20:27
  there. And I immediately went to
• 20:29
  comment and I'm like, you must be
• 20:30
  joking, right?
• 20:31
  Like Shane Copland built, you know,
• 20:33
  a polymarket on Polygon.
• 20:35
  Can you talk a little bit about
• 20:36
  that, you know, that specific
• 20:38
  use case and perhaps?
• 20:40
  The potential of that just not being
• 20:42
  possible if Polygon hadn't been
• 20:44
  built. I mean, I don't think Shane
• 20:45
  could have built what he built on
• 20:48
  another platform.
• 20:49
  Am I wrong or am I right?
• 20:51
  No, people forget that
• 20:53
  Polygon is the first chain that was
• 20:54
  around that could actually support
• 20:56
  the types of transactions that
• 20:58
  Polymarket wanted to do.
• 21:00
  And I think when I
• 21:02
  look at, I think, us 10xing
• 21:04
  scale over the last 12
• 21:06
  months, that
• 21:08
  is actually what's allowed
• 21:09
  Polymarket to continue to scale in
• 21:11
  that way. Let's leave aside the
• 21:12
  amazing work, frankly, that they've
• 21:14
  done to make that possible.
• 21:15
  But from an infrastructure
• 21:16
  perspective, they've been
• 21:18
  able to do that without any
• 21:20
  issues whatsoever.
• 21:21
  And I think that ends up being a
• 21:23
  really, really important thing.
• 21:25
  I see those comments sometimes, and
• 21:26
  I kind of just don't care, right?
• 21:28
  Because I look at it and I'm like,
• 21:30
  PolyMarket's the most successful app
• 21:31
  in the world that's ever been on a
• 21:33
  blockchain, doesn't it? Well, I look
• 21:34
  things like Courtyard.
• 21:36
  Courtyard's the, they started
• 21:38
  selling like Pokemon cards on-chain.
• 21:40
  They do way more than that.
• 21:42
  They effectively created an entire
• 21:43
  category that everybody's trying
• 21:45
  to copy, right, and that is on
• 21:47
  Polygon, they continuously are up
• 21:49
  and to the right, incredibly
• 21:50
  successful.
• 21:51
  I think it would have been really
• 21:52
  hard for them to do that on any
• 21:54
  other chain. I think now you could
• 21:56
  launch a business like that on any
• 21:58
  chain, basically.
• 22:00
  And at the core of both of
• 22:02
  those companies, actually, is
• 22:04
  actually this payment state.
• 22:05
  It's this ability to get money
• 22:08
  on the chain incredibly easily,
• 22:10
  check out in terms of the
• 22:12
  activity that you're doing, buy the
• 22:13
  thing that you want, take the
• 22:14
  position that you want incredibly
• 22:15
  easily. And when you end up wanting
• 22:17
  to cash out, actually be able to
• 22:19
  leave really, really easily.
• 22:20
  And so when we focus on like
• 22:22
  payments, we're actually like
• 22:23
  enabling some of these other
• 22:24
  activities to happen and
• 22:26
  some places it could be that we're
• 22:27
  enabling that for a use case that's
• 22:29
  actually trading on Polygon.
• 22:31
  But some of it's going to be, you
• 22:32
  know, somebody who wants to, you
• 22:33
  don't check out from activity on
• 22:35
  another chain, move it over to
• 22:36
  Polygon and then use it over here
• 22:38
  for something right. So yeah,
• 22:40
  at the core, I think Polygon's just,
• 22:42
  frankly, played a really, really
• 22:44
  crucial role. I think there's a
• 22:45
  reason. I saw another tweet
• 22:46
  yesterday that was fun, but we did
• 22:47
  this fun bantering with Solana
• 22:49
  that's like, very like, let's
• 22:51
  just create some excitement, which
• 22:53
  people always think is something
• 22:54
  else. And I saw a tweet yesterday,
• 22:57
  and our CTO responded and was like,
• 22:59
  You know, it's funny, you're talking
• 23:00
  about your portfolio company, you
• 23:02
  know, not being invested in
• 23:04
  Polygon.
• 23:05
  That's what it was.
• 23:07
  Yeah. When I look at it, I see
• 23:09
  almost all of your portfolio
• 23:11
  companies that support Polygon as a
• 23:13
  chain.
• 23:14
  And so, no, look,
• 23:16
  it's at the core like polygons
• 23:18
  become, I'd consider like.
• 23:21
  Critical infrastructure might be
• 23:22
  strong, but really core
• 23:23
  infrastructure for anyone who wants
• 23:25
  to move money, period.
• 23:27
  And that might not be the app is
• 23:29
  on Polygon as a chain.
• 23:30
  It might be it's routed through
• 23:31
  Polygon, it might be uses liquidity
• 23:33
  from Polygon and it might actually
• 23:35
  on Polygons and needs it.
• 23:37
  And so ultimately, I think it's
• 23:38
  fantastic that we've been able to
• 23:39
  build something that has scaled the
• 23:41
  way that we have and that ends up
• 23:43
  being used by the biggest apps in
• 23:44
  the world. It's really cool.
• 23:45
  What's your general perspective on
• 23:47
  the state of the crypto
• 23:50
  industry and its kind
• 23:52
  of amalgamation with TradFi?
• 23:53
  And I'll caveat that with just the
• 23:55
  preamble of myself and Jordan,
• 23:57
  my producer, traveling all around
• 23:59
  the world in the last two months.
• 24:01
  We've literally been to New York
• 24:02
  like three times.
• 24:03
  The last time was for a live
• 24:05
  broadcast at the NASDAQ for
• 24:07
  an XRP treasury company
• 24:09
  listing. And then a few weeks before
• 24:10
  that, we were at Avalanche Summit,
• 24:13
  and that was full of the who's who
• 24:14
  from. Like previous
• 24:17
  US CFTC
• 24:19
  chairs and this kind of thing and
• 24:21
  it's very clear in my mind to see
• 24:23
  that the lines are becoming very
• 24:24
  blurred now and it has kind
• 24:26
  of been slowly but then all at once
• 24:29
  many TradFi
• 24:31
  institutions kind of just looking
• 24:33
  to use various different
• 24:34
  blockchains, various different
• 24:35
  pieces of infrastructure to improve
• 24:38
  the products and services that
• 24:39
  they're offering.
• 24:41
  It's satisfying from my perspective
• 24:43
  to see this happen, but I'm curious
• 24:45
  to hear what you think if
• 24:46
  we should be more
• 24:48
  bullish than we currently are just
• 24:50
  considering market conditions.
• 24:52
  Yeah, so I always, I'm
• 24:54
  always torn on this.
• 24:55
  I think you and I come from
• 24:56
  something similar, which is like,
• 24:59
  you know, I got into this space
• 25:01
  because I was actually really
• 25:02
  excited about like
• 25:04
  sovereign money and really
• 25:06
  excited about like being able to
• 25:08
  build autonomous things that
• 25:10
  are going to be, you know
• 25:12
  self-executing with no centralized
• 25:14
  components to them.
• 25:15
  And like that vision to me was
• 25:17
  really, really exciting.
• 25:20
  That's had to transform a little bit
• 25:22
  because that's frankly not reality
• 25:24
  right now for almost any
• 25:26
  use case.
• 25:27
  And I think the question that I
• 25:28
  always go to is, are we building
• 25:29
  something that is still useful?
• 25:32
  Do we actually need blockchains
• 25:34
  for any of this?
• 25:36
  And I always think of it all
• 25:37
  ultimately, you are bringing a
• 25:39
  global ledger that is more resilient
• 25:41
  than what exists otherwise, that is
• 25:43
  transparent than what exist
• 25:45
  otherwise, and frankly
• 25:47
  more accessible than what is
• 25:48
  otherwise.
• 25:49
  And to me, that is like actually
• 25:51
  still bettering the world.
• 25:52
  It's not as like the extreme shift
• 25:54
  that like we expected to
• 25:56
  see in the world, but
• 25:58
  it is bettering things, right?
• 26:00
  So when I think of like money
• 26:01
  movement, like I get weirdly
• 26:03
  excited, frankly, like the person
• 26:05
  in Latam who needed to get
• 26:07
  money over the weekend and who could
• 26:08
  actually receive money over
• 26:10
  the weekend, I get excited by
• 26:12
  the person who used to stay
• 26:14
  up late because they had to get
• 26:16
  money before the next deadline
• 26:18
  or cutoff would set and they don't
• 26:20
  need to do that anymore.
• 26:22
  They're like just core fundamental
• 26:24
  improvements to people's lives.
• 26:26
  And I think you take that a step
• 26:27
  further to just tokenizing
• 26:29
  things like stocks and bonds
• 26:31
  and other assets like that, and
• 26:33
  very similar effect that that has on
• 26:35
  people. And so I think we get away
• 26:37
  from a little bit of we're going to
• 26:39
  change everything in the world to we
• 26:40
  are just going to improve things in
• 26:42
  a material way for people in the
• 26:44
  word. And that has a massive
• 26:46
  amount of value. I talk about it in
• 26:47
  the context of Polygon all the time.
• 26:49
  When I think of Polydon as a chain,
• 26:51
  I always give the analogy
• 26:53
  to like Visa.
• 26:54
  It's like did I think I would give
• 26:55
  like the analogy to like I'm going
• 26:57
  to be like Visa but slightly better
• 26:59
  and and no I didn't think I will but
• 27:00
  when I think about it It's like,
• 27:02
  okay, I've got a network that can
• 27:03
  operate, you know, at all times
• 27:05
  of the day,
• 27:07
  at a fraction of the cost of what it
• 27:09
  would be otherwise.
• 27:11
  And I can do that in a way that
• 27:13
  is, you know, I think
• 27:15
  better for the world,
• 27:17
  distributes value more for the
• 27:19
  world.
• 27:20
  And so that ends up being like
• 27:21
  really, really, honestly exciting,
• 27:24
  even though it's not like that
• 27:25
  initial vision. And frankly, it's
• 27:26
  going to accrue a huge amount of
• 27:27
  value. Visa does like $17 billion
• 27:29
  a year.
• 27:31
  On just like what they
• 27:33
  call data processing.
• 27:34
  It's not volume based.
• 27:35
  Everyone thinks all of these as
• 27:36
  money is based off of like, they
• 27:38
  take bips.
• 27:39
  No, they also take flat fees on
• 27:41
  transactions, just like a blockchain
• 27:42
  does.
• 27:43
  And that fees is $17 billion
• 27:45
  a year.
• 27:47
  That is a massive market.
• 27:48
  When you think of anyone who is
• 27:50
  focused on payments, and that's
• 27:51
  frankly just like a card networks
• 27:53
  payments, which is not what we're
• 27:54
  going after. We're going after
• 27:55
  something much, much bigger than
• 27:57
  that and being global money movement
• 27:58
  period. And so I think there's
• 28:00
  an immense amount of value to be
• 28:02
  created when you create something
• 28:04
  that people want that they otherwise
• 28:06
  don't have access to, which I think
• 28:08
  is what we're doing at Polygon.
• 28:09
  And I think the same thing is being
• 28:10
  done on the trading side when it
• 28:11
  comes to tokenized stocks.
• 28:14
  Assets.
• 28:15
  Yeah, and the sign behind
• 28:17
  me is what you were talking about
• 28:18
  before.
• 28:19
  Everything's starting with Bitcoin.
• 28:22
  So the vision and the belief is
• 28:24
  still there.
• 28:25
  But further afield, when it comes to
• 28:27
  blockchains and these solutions, I
• 28:28
  completely agree with you.
• 28:30
  It's understanding that there are
• 28:31
  use cases that this
• 28:33
  technology and this infrastructure
• 28:35
  serves and serves a lot better than
• 28:36
  what has existed for the last
• 28:38
  few decades.
• 28:39
  And I think it's always important to
• 28:41
  remind people of that.
• 28:43
  We've spent a lot of time at Bitcoin
• 28:45
  conferences.
• 28:46
  And it's always interesting to go
• 28:47
  there, because it does take you back
• 28:48
  to those kind of fundamental
• 28:50
  principles that brought us all into
• 28:52
  the industry.
• 28:53
  But at the same time, it's a very
• 28:55
  small group of people that
• 28:57
  are focused on one thing,
• 28:59
  which is very, very important.
• 29:01
  But I've always had a more open mind
• 29:03
  to tech innovation.
• 29:04
  And I think that's the beauty of
• 29:06
  what our industry is doing, is that
• 29:07
  it's not just or a
• 29:09
  grift and, you know, people just
• 29:11
  trying to sell people other tokens.
• 29:13
  No, there's actual valuable
• 29:14
  infrastructure being built here that
• 29:15
  will be the future of finance.
• 29:16
  And I think it's always important to
• 29:18
  remind people of that.
• 29:20
  The last thing I wanted to chat to
• 29:21
  you about is just your personal X
• 29:22
  account.
• 29:23
  I followed you for a long time.
• 29:24
  And obviously we've known each other
• 29:25
  for quite a while, but you
• 29:27
  definitely got spicier and spicier
• 29:29
  takes in the last few months for
• 29:31
  anyone that doesn't follow Mark on
• 29:32
  on Twitter.
• 29:34
  It's zero OX Mark B
• 29:36
  on X if you want to go and follow
• 29:37
  him. But. Talk to me a little bit
• 29:39
  about your approach to X
• 29:41
  these days, because you've
• 29:42
  definitely been ruffling some
• 29:43
  feathers.
• 29:45
  Yeah, I mean, it's as simple as
• 29:46
  saying what I actually think.
• 29:48
  So I was told that
• 29:50
  I should share my real thoughts.
• 29:53
  I warned those who told me that my
• 29:55
  real thoughts are somewhat intense
• 29:57
  and not that one would enjoy them.
• 30:00
  And I've decided to go ahead and do
• 30:02
  it anyway.
• 30:03
  But look, ultimately,
• 30:05
  like, um.
• 30:06
  I think that if you want
• 30:08
  to run a company,
• 30:11
  you probably need a level of
• 30:12
  intensity that many others don't
• 30:14
  have. And most people don't
• 30:16
  care to voice that.
• 30:18
  But that is the reality.
• 30:19
  And it's
• 30:21
  the number of founders who have
• 30:23
  reached out to me in the end and
• 30:25
  been like.
• 30:26
  Yes, I totally agree with you.
• 30:28
  It's like, it's double digits.
• 30:30
  Like, literally, there's a lot.
• 30:33
  And, you know, I think there's,
• 30:35
  there there's something to be said
• 30:36
  for like, people getting to
• 30:38
  understand what you you
• 30:39
  actually kind of voice.
• 30:41
  I think one of the most interesting
• 30:42
  things has been like, the
• 30:44
  the difference internally at Polygon
• 30:46
  versus like my ex account to me is
• 30:48
  like really funny because people
• 30:51
  know me in like a completely
• 30:52
  different way, because like what I
• 30:54
  actually think does not
• 30:55
  mean that I require
• 30:57
  those things to actually like exist.
• 31:00
  But everyone assumes that that is
• 31:02
  that I'm like a demon who requires
• 31:03
  that. But nonetheless, like it's
• 31:05
  been it's fun.
• 31:06
  Like I think it's, it's
• 31:08
  look, I think It's healthy.
• 31:09
  And also, there's honestly some good
• 31:10
  conversations that have come out of
• 31:11
  it. And then it's also funny
• 31:13
  seeing when, you know, somebody
• 31:15
  who's built a brand like Revolut
• 31:17
  says the exact same thing, and how
• 31:18
  it's received, right?
• 31:20
  Like I think the the
• 31:21
  comment was like, if you're not
• 31:23
  working 996, then like you're
• 31:25
  going to be able to out-compete
• 31:26
  those in China.
• 31:28
  I think that's 100% accurate.
• 31:30
  Like somebody who's working 996,
• 31:32
  you're working like 885,
• 31:34
  like good luck.
• 31:36
  It's gonna be tough.
• 31:37
  And maybe you end up winning.
• 31:39
  That's okay, but like your odds
• 31:41
  and life is all about increasing the
• 31:43
  odds of you being successful in
• 31:45
  whatever you do, your odds are not
• 31:47
  the best.
• 31:48
  So that's it.
• 31:50
  I like that a lot.
• 31:51
  I mean, it's good to put your honest
• 31:53
  thoughts out there.
• 31:54
  And again, like you say, it not
• 31:56
  necessarily meaning that that's how
• 31:58
  you treat people.
• 31:59
  It's kind of just saying like, if
• 32:00
  you do these things, there's a far,
• 32:02
  far bigger chance of you succeeding
• 32:04
  or your business succeeding.
• 32:05
  And the truth is, that's why there
• 32:08
  are less entrepreneurs in the world
• 32:10
  than there are employees, because
• 32:11
  not everyone is willing to
• 32:13
  do what it takes to build very
• 32:15
  big and successful businesses.
• 32:17
  Yeah, you're not in business to be
• 32:19
  liked, right? You need to run a
• 32:21
  business and you need to have a
• 32:22
  vision. And I think you also have to
• 32:23
  lead by example.
• 32:25
  If anyone's read Elon Musk's book,
• 32:27
  there's lots of anecdotes of him
• 32:29
  during the crunch times,
• 32:31
  just sleeping under his desks for
• 32:33
  a few weeks in the warehouse while
• 32:36
  they're busy sprinting
• 32:38
  to get stuff done or change
• 32:40
  things around the business.
• 32:42
  Not everyone can do that.
• 32:43
  Not everyone wants to do that It's
• 32:44
  not palatable to everyone, but it
• 32:46
  doesn't mean that there isn't
• 32:47
  something to be taken from it So I
• 32:48
  like it a lot Keep putting
• 32:50
  them out there And I think the best
• 32:52
  thing is that some people agree with
• 32:54
  you some people disagree with you
• 32:55
  But at least it creates meaningful
• 32:56
  discourse Yeah,
• 32:58
  I strongly agree.
• 32:59
  Yeah, beautiful mark.
• 33:00
  Thanks so much for your time It's
• 33:02
  really great to catch up with you.
• 33:03
  It's also just been great to see the
• 33:05
  evolution of polygon over the years
• 33:08
  I'm a big fan of Sandeep, I'm big
• 33:09
  fan of yours and I think you guys
• 33:10
  are doing something special.
• 33:12
  And yeah, we look forward to having
• 33:13
  you back on the show in a few
• 33:15
  weeks, few months into 2027.
• 33:18
  I'm sure there's gonna be a lot more
• 33:19
  big, exciting announcements, but
• 33:21
  again, thanks so much for your time.
• 33:22
  All right, awesome, thanks for
• 33:23
  having me. Awesome, we'll let Mark
• 33:25
  drop off the screen here and we'll
• 33:27
  wrap up the show today.
• 33:28
  Thank you so much for joining us on
• 33:29
  the starting block, wherever you are
• 33:31
  joining us today.
• 33:32
  If you wanna catch up on some of the
• 33:33
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• 33:34
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• 33:36
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• 33:38
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• 33:39
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• 33:41
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• 33:42
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• 33:43
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• 33:49
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• 33:51
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• 33:55
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• 33:59
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• 34:01
  in AI related news.
• 34:03
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• 34:07
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• 34:09
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• 34:10
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• 34:18
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• 34:20
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• 34:21
  I will be taking a break tomorrow
• 34:23
  and Monday, myself and Jordan,
• 34:25
  my producer. It's my birthday over
• 34:27
  the weekend. So you won't be seeing
• 34:28
  us for the next couple of days.
• 34:29
  We will be back on air on
• 34:31
  Tuesday next week.
• 34:32
  So set a reminder.
• 34:33
  If you don't know when we broadcast,
• 34:36
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• 34:39
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• 34:41
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• 34:42
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• 34:44
  Wherever you are around the world,
• 34:45
  have a fantastic weekend.
• 34:47
  We'll be back next week.
• 34:48
  Until then, bye bye.