Latest / The Daily Writer / Pursuing Resilience and Mental Health as a Writer | Chris Morris

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Pursuing Resilience and Mental Health as a Writer | Chris Morris · The Daily Writer

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Hey friends, welcome back to the Profitable Writer Podcast.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: If you're new here, my name is Kent Sanders.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm an author and a ghostwriter, and this is the show that helps you grow your impact and income as a writer.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I've got to tell you, there are two forces at work, the way I see it at least.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: There are two forces to growing a sustainable writing business, or any kind of a business for that matter.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, there's the external elements that people see.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's the websites, the blog, the books, the client conversations, the work that you produce, and so forth.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Those are all the things that other people see that are a part of our business.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: But then on the other hand, there's also the internal element, which is the mental and emotional journey that you're taking as a writer and as a business owner.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: And when you start taking your business seriously, it feels like the external elements are going to be the things that make or break you.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because it feels like it's all about learning to connect with certain types of people or understanding the craft of writing or feeling comfortable with the technical side of websites or other kinds of things.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: But as you get your feet wet and as you establish yourself a little bit in your business, I believe that we come to understand that it's really more about the mental and emotional journey that we're taking.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people typically don't self-destruct because they don't know how to write a book outline or they get something wrong when they're trying to upload their book on KDP on Amazon.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Those aren't the reasons that people have breakdowns and they self-destruct or they harm themselves or they just implode and they just disappear.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: People self-destruct because they haven't really gotten a handle on their emotional and mental lives as creatives and as business owners.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you think about it, think about the people in your life who have had a train wreck.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's not typically because they lack skills in certain areas, it's because of the mental and emotional elements of life.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: And if you have a writing business, um, those things can, you know, we all have ups and downs, and those things can take a toll on your mental and emotional health if you're not a healthy person and if you're not balanced and adjusted and practicing self-care and have a good community and those kinds of things.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: So for all those reasons, that's why I'm really honored and excited to have my good friend Chris Morris as a guest today on this episode.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: And he's going to help us navigate some of these issues from the perspective of building our resilience and mental health as writers and business owners.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Chris is the author of the excellent new book, which is called Resilient and Redeemed: Lessons about Suicidality and Depression from the Psych Ward.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Chris has written several other books on topics like mental health, faith, and chronic illness, and he's also the host of the podcast which is called Resilience and Other Things.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I laugh because I just I love Chris so much.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: He's such a great guy, and I think that's a great title for a podcast, Resilience and Other Things.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's awesome.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Now I want to give my good friend Jim Woods a shout out here because Jim is the whole reason that I know Chris.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Jim introduced me to Chris.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: Gosh, how many years ago was it now?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, seven or eight, nine years ago, you know, kind of around the time that we were all that we were all sort of getting our start a little bit in this writing space.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so all three of us have kind of taken, in a sense, kind of some parallel journeys.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: We've all grown a lot.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: We're all doing different things to some degree than we started out doing, but that's you know the nature of having a writing business and being an author.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: But it's been really cool because I've gotten to see both Chris and Jim, for that matter, blossom and develop some really, really cool things.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: And um, even though Chris is a gifted accountant by trade, he is also a phenomenally gifted writer.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like honestly, when I think of the people that I personally know, and you know, I know that I say nice things about people when they're a guest on my podcast.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of par for the course, right?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not exaggerating when I tell you that when I think of the authors who I personally know, and I know a lot of authors, um Chris is like one of the top handful of people that I can think of who has such a natural gift for communication and for writing.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: And there have been a lot of times where I have I've been reading something that Chris has written, and I was like, man, he's so good.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: I wish I had Chris's gift for writing.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Not that I'm trying to be jealous, but he's so gifted.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: I just love reading Chris's stuff.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and he's also just such a kind and generous soul.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I just love being around Chris, and I'm so excited to have him uh here as a guest on the show today.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: Let me tell you a little bit about Chris in his own words, and this is from the bio section of his website, which is Chris MorrisWrights.com.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: And there's more to his his about page, obviously, than this, but I want to share with you just a couple sentences here.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: He says, I spend my time writing about how to balance faith in difficult times.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: I have both mental illnesses and chronic illnesses, but I'm learning to thrive anyway.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: I've never been good friends with normal, but I'm well acquainted with disappointment and pain.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: I guess that's why redefining normal is part of the code here, because it's been part of my journey.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: And if you relate to any of those words that are from Chris's website, you're going to really love this conversation.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: So here are some specific things that we dive into in this conversation today, and then I'll turn it over to uh Chris as he and I talk.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we talk about why writers and creatives often uniquely struggle with mental health.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: So if you are a writer and you're a creative, obviously you are, or you wouldn't be listening to this podcast.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we talk about why does that sometimes people like us struggle with mental health?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about the role that writing has played in his recovery and how he finds resilience in dark times, uh, as well as some practices and routines for staying mentally healthy.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: Also, part of our conversation, we kind of take a hard right turn a little bit, and we talk about the publishing and the business side of what Chris does, and he shares his thoughts on publishing pathways for authors.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Chris has actually published um, I think pretty much any of the books that I'm thinking of that he's written, he's published traditionally, he's done self-publishing.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um I don't actually know if he's done hybrid publishing, but Chris has a variety of experiences, and so he is kind of uniquely suited to talk about what he has done for recent projects.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: And we talk about a lot more of stuff as well in this conversation.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I just really, really think the world of Chris is the kind of person that whenever I think of him, I know that the world is a better place, and I'm a better person because Chris is in this world.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope that you really are touched by this conversation just as much as I was.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure and check out Chris's books and his podcasts at Chris MorrisRights.com, and I really encourage you to grab his new book, which I mentioned, which is called Resilient and Redeemed Lessons About Suicidality and Depression from the Psychour.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: So hope you're ready for a very meaningful and heartfelt conversation with my good friend Chris Morris.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, Chris, it's good to have you here on the show.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a while since we connected, and I'm really, really amazed with all the output you've had recently, and you've got more books coming out this year.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: And congrats on all your success.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: You're doing all the things right now, and it's really inspiring.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, thank you so much.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_04: It's good to uh connect with you again, Kent.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's been a little while since we talked, and I was uh telling somebody the other day about your book and just said, you know, Chris is one of those, he's one of those guys that just has, I feel like, a lot of natural writing talent.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a lot of people are very successful with writing and they just have to work at it.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Not that you don't have to work at it, but I've always known you as somebody who you are a um you care a lot about the craft of writing and you have so much skill and giftedness in the area.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I just I love reading your stuff.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's beautifully written and it's great.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: So excited to talk with you today.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, you're making me blush.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for all the kind words.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_04: That's lovely.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_04: I appreciate that.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: So let's dive into some themes about your upcoming book, uh, which is called, of course, you know what it's called, but and I will have already talked about it in the intro to this episode.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: But it's uh resilient and redeemed, lessons about suit.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: How do you pronounce this word?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: Suicidality?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Is that the correct pronunciation?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: Lessons about suicidality and depression from the psych ward, which is a great title, by the way.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: So congrats on a good title.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I know there's a long story behind this book and where it came from, but walk us through, if you would, some of the backstory behind your own journey with mental health.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: And you you've written and talked about this extensively before, so I'm not digging into areas that are like things that you haven't shared publicly before.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: But um, what makes you the perfect person to write this book?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because I feel that you are.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and so I I think what situates me in the right place is that I am someone who has struggled my entire life with depression and with suicidal ideations.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_04: And um specifically in in sort of Christian circles, that is something that's not talked about very honestly, very, very openly or honestly.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_04: You know, there there's this idea that's like, well, just sprinkle a little bit of Magic Jesus juice on yourself and everything will be fine.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_04: And that that isn't my story.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_04: And there are, especially in a post-COVID world, that's a lot of people's stories.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_04: Where you you try and do all the things that everyone says you're supposed to do, and frankly, none of it works.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_04: So, what do you do when all the experts that you've read about doesn't produce any difference in your life?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_04: And that's the perspective that I'm coming from because I've had seasons where I've done all the things that everyone tells me to do, and I still wake up overwhelmed and overcome by my suicidal ideations, by my depression, and just feel surrounded by darkness.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_04: Praise God, I'm not in that space now.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_04: But I've been there and I know what I have tools that's, you know, they're not it's not a magic pill, it's not a magic potion, but I I've worked hard to figure out, hey, here's seven or eight things that really made a difference in my life over the long haul.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_04: And I think hearing that coming from someone who's been there, rather than maybe someone on the outside, while I'm a counselor, that's really I'm not discounting a counselor or a social worker's perspective.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_04: But but hearing it from someone who's been in the ditches, who's been in the the dark places and has come out, it just hits different.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it it makes it more complex being a part of a faith community because a lot of those topics are taboo and you know, we're supposed to be joyful, and and the the there is a segment of the Christian world where and I would say thankfully it's becoming uh what I think is a more extreme point of view, which is becoming less, hopefully over time.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: But this idea that you can you should just pray about it and have more faith, and that if you struggle with mental illness or you've thought about killing yourself, that you're a bad Christian or you don't have enough faith, or maybe you're not a Christian in the first place.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: And like there's this whole weirdness around it where sometimes you just want to shove all that aside and just go, can we just like talk about what the issue is and how we can get better without all of the extra bag spiritual baggage that goes on top of it?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_04: No, I I completely agree with you.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_04: And some some of what I talk about in resilience and redeemed is my interaction with those, frankly, really unhealthy environments.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_04: You know, how how that impacted me, which, you know, the short version is it didn't impact me in a positive way.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_04: Uh we can go into the longer version if you want, but the short version is it was rough.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, you know, and then on the flip side, how faith communities eventually came alongside me in really empowering and positive and life-giving ways.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, as you have shared your your story through through other books and online and so many other places, have you had encounters with with people who have just like vehemently been opposed to your perspective?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, Chris, you shouldn't talk about these things, or that's not appropriate, or you should be more joyful.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: And they just sort of try to put a spiritual veneer over things.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Have you had a lot of a lot of those kind of interactions with faith-based people?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_04: Unfortunately, I have.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_04: I've had a lot of people who have come who they usually come at me with a lot of aggression.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_04: And scripture verses and a lot of judgment and a lot of quote answers to my problem, unquote.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_04: Like like like suicidality and depression is a like there's a one-size-fits-all solution for everyone's problem, which is just a myth.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_04: It's just not true.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_04: I have had a lot of people come at me.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_04: Thankfully, I hasn't been in public spaces very often.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_04: But probably about I would say over the last two years is I've been focusing more on mental health and on depression and on my own story.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_04: Probably about once a month I get an email from some angry person who is just telling me that I'm leading God's sheep astray and that I'm going to be held accountable by God.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_04: Oh my gosh.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_04: And, you know, my my response to them is always, hey, I'm telling my story.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not trying to say, well, this is my truth and your truth is different, but I'm saying this is my experience.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_04: And what I can tell you is that my experience rings true with most people who are struggling with their mental health.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_04: So I would guess, sir or ma'am, that you're probably not struggling.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_04: And praise God for that, because I don't want anyone to have to struggle with these things.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_04: But I would encourage you to think a little bit more about you know, and what is the answer to the question?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_04: What does kindness look like for when you're interacting with someone who has a mental illness?
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_04: Because one of the things we see over and over and over and over again in the gospels is that Jesus was kind to the point of getting in trouble for it.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: Which is crazy.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, to to think about that, and but then you think, well, something's never changed because you look at extremist portions of the Christian faith today and it's no different.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like and it's always existed out there, but I think because of social media and other aspects, probably, um, I think we hear more about them and they have a bigger voice than maybe they used to.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: So in that skin, uh gosh, that's talk about a can of worms, you know, of of all kinds of stuff.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: But but I can imagine though that you have also hopefully a lot more, um, had people who've come to you and said, Chris, thank you for sharing this and for kind of opening the conversation through your posts and your books and just being a person who's very open about your own history with this.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I I can imagine that's gonna be really gratifying when you connect with those people.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_04: It definitely is and you're right, there are more people that are interacting with me in positive ways, which is wonderful because really my my my audience isn't the folks that have got it all figured out that have all the answers.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_04: My audience is the folks who are beside themselves trying to figure out how do I move forward in a positive, meaningful way in my life.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_04: And it is really, you know, it it's it's gratifying, and I'm I'm humbled that people will find my science, will find my articles, will read them and will take the time to engage with me.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_04: It's really meaningful.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I think that just opening up the conversation with, hey, I've considered suicide before, I've been in a dark place, that alone, even just sort of acknowledging the elephant in the room, I feel like even just that, it opens up so much opportunity for people to also admit that, hey, I've had those thoughts too.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I I have had those thoughts too myself.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: I've there have been multiple times in my life where I've been in a very, very dark place, and thank God I've never harmed myself.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I very easily understand why people do and how they can get to those places, and and sometimes you look at people's, you know, quote unquote successful exterior, what whatever that might look like.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: And oftentimes that is um, I don't want to say a cover-up, but but that's that sort of doesn't tell the whole truth about what somebody is experiencing in their own heart or in their own mind or their own life or whatever.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: So you can really sort of never believe the press that's out there about anybody because anybody could struggle.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, rich or poor, successful, unsuccessful, whatever the case might be.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_04: No, I fully agree with you.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_04: I read this book probably about 15 years ago.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_04: I wish I could remember the book title because I reference this regularly and I I don't know where I read it from, but the person talked about giving people the gift of going second.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_04: And and the whole concept is in every relational exchange you have with someone, there's sort of unspoken rules around what's safe and what's not safe to talk about.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_04: So when we take the lead with transparency, so when I say to someone, you know, I I've struggled with suicidality my entire adult life, what that does is that says, hey, the the level of transparency of this conversation is higher than it is in most conversations that you're gonna have with people.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_04: And it gives them unspoken permission to say, Hey, me too.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever had somebody in a professional context know that about you and then they somehow deemed you uh like unprofessional or not up to the task of doing, you know, your background as accounting, um whether it be something like that or writing or something, has that ever actually happened to you where somebody has said, you know, you know, Chris, I know you've had these struggles.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure that you're up to the task of doing this.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Or has that not been the case?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_04: I had that happen one time with me with a CPA client, and it was really heart wrenching.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_04: And it it caused me to I really had to sort of step back and say, Do I want to keep leading into transparency in this way if it's going to potentially cost me financially?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_04: And is what I'm doing worth the potential negative press that it's going to give me.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_04: And I had to really do some, you know, some searching with within myself and sort of determine how how important is this to me?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_04: How important is this message?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_04: You know, that that was that was like that was pre-COVID.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_04: That was uh when in 2018 when I published Whispers in the Pews, um I which got a decent amount of press.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um I I had someone come to me at that point and say, Chris, I don't know if someone who's been in a psych ward should be doing my taxes.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_04: And I said, Well, that's your choice.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_04: I can't I mean, this is who I am, and I'm I'm not ashamed of it.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and I'm not gonna hide it from people.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_04: So if you feel like you need to go somewhere else, let me know what documentation you need from me and we will go from there.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_04: And then there was this really weird, like, well, I'll be praying for you that you find some stability and some real purpose in your life.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_04: Because I know if you had purpose you wouldn't be struggling with these things.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, how how long do we have to poke holes in the logic of how do you go from that thing to the other thing?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_04: So I I literally said so.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, I don't want to get into a conversation or an argument about this, but just so you know, part of my purpose is indeed exactly what you're angry at me for doing.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_04: Part of the purpose I feel God's walking me toward is bringing more conversations around mental health in into the public eye.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_04: And he goes, Well, I don't think God would ever call anyone to do that.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_04: I appreciate your opinion.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_04: Like I said, I'm not gonna engage you in an argument.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_04: It's very clear that you've sort of made your decision.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna respect that decision.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_04: You know, and let me know what you need from me so we can end this relationship.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_04: And I, you know, I hope that I wish you the best of luck.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_04: So they did end up going somewhere.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and he sent me an email like right afterwards here's the information that I need.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_04: And then he he had to put in there.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_04: Way I will not be recommending anyone to you.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_04: Normally, I would like to say that I would recommend previous colleagues, but I cannot do that because you're unstable.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Now, on the flip side, have you had people um come to you specifically because you've been open about these issues and say, Chris, I want to have a dialogue or I want you to do taxes, or I obviously I want to buy your books, or like what's the flip side of that?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: What benefits have you seen from being really open about all this?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_04: I so I can't say that I've gained business on the CPA side from it, but what I can tell you, because so many of the people that I work with in my CPA firm are creative entrepreneurs, writers, artists, things like that, uh-huh.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_04: You know, they they are very grateful that I'm being open about these conversations.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_04: And, you know, so that so I've had a lot of conversations where people will say, I was already sort of sold on continuing to work with you because you're good at your job, but I'm even more sold because you're also being open on this very important conversation.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's cool.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: See, I actually hadn't anticipated this conversation going this direction, but this is immensely helpful because there's there's a not to go into a whole long thing because this is we're talking about your book, we're supposed to be talking about your book.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um this does really impact something I'm working on.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm not even sure how much I want to share publicly on my podcast at this time about all this, but but some some dynamics in my own life.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'll just leave it vague like that.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and you and I can talk offline about this more if you want to, but just some dynamics in my own life where I there's a book that's been percolating in my mind for about a year about some things.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and because I come from the Christian world, just like you do, uh, some things that I want to share and some things that I want to say and things I really feel strongly about, and some ways that I I feel about some ways I feel some ways about some things that I didn't used to feel, uh, about the way the church has shifted the last probably decade, five or ten years, um, some things that are heartbreaking to me.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I'm a little scared to put it out there because some of my clients are faith-based, and I think I'm kind of known as a Christian writer, uh, even with ghostwriting stuff, and I'm I'm worried about it, to be totally honest.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: So you have helped me to have a sense of bravery and confidence that I did not really have before.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I just wanted to say thank you for going first, you know, so so I can sort of feel more confidence and bravery in going second.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, knowing that I think there's a if a book is positioned well and it's written well and it's done with the right heart, that a lot more positive things can come from that than potential negative things.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I'm glad to be a source of encouragement for you.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_04: I I definitely have some you know some some fears around overexposure because I uh the way I've said it to other people is most people hide skeletons in their closets.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_04: I'm giving tours of the skeletons in my closet.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_04: Here's quite a different approach.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: Let's sell tickets.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I definitely have days where I worry about that, but I think that it's important to have like in one of my chapters, I I talked with my wife and we walk and I I out I lay out hey, when I attempted suicide, this is what I remember.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_04: This is what my wife had to do, and this is where how it was when I woke up.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_04: And like people don't have those conversations.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: No, I've never heard anybody talk about it in detail like that, except you, you know.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's why I'm I'm really anxious to read your book.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I had forgotten that it doesn't come out for well, we're recording this in late May, so and we haven't even talked about when to release this episode.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: Probably would be advantageous to release it around the time that your book comes out uh for a maximum press, I suppose.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I was bummed that I've still got to wait a couple months before it comes out.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh or no, no, I'm sorry, it comes out next month, right?
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: In June?
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: June 11th, yeah.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, so like three weeks.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this will work out great then.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because I was like, oh man, I really want to get the book now and read it.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I've got to order a bunch of copies and uh because I I know some friends who would benefit from this.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: I am curious, Chris, what do you feel like is the line?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because this podcast is for for writers and for people doing creative work by definition.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: How do you know what the line is about how much to share of your personal life?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that's something a lot of us wrestle with is okay, let's let's take me for example, I'm a ghostwriter.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: I need to maintain a professional image that I can show up and do the work and be a pro and blah, blah, blah.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: At the same time, I'm also a human being who has things that I want to write about and talk about, some of which um, you know, might be a little controversial and whatnot.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: What do you feel like is is the line, you know, as you talk about exposure?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um how do we know how much is oversharing from our personal lives when we're also trying to maintain a professional image out there?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure if there is an answer, but I'm curious your thoughts.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_04: That's a really insightful question.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_04: I I don't think there's a single answer to that.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's really dependent on sort of you know what your your public brand is.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_04: Like, let me give you an example.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_04: That's really cool.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_04: One of my good friends, Lindsay A.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_04: Franklin, is a speculative fiction author.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_04: So she, you know, she's known for creating story worlds and creating memorable characters and all the things like that.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_04: So it's a very different question for her to talk to say, Hey, should I talk about mental health diagnoses that I may or may not have?
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_04: Because people who are following her on social media or who are buying her books are not coming to her to hear those things.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_04: They're coming to her because she crafts these story worlds that are incredible and amazing.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's what they want.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: They want entertainment from her, essentially.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_04: Where whereas, like my really my entire platform is I'm a I'm someone who has a ton of lived experience with mental health struggles and chronic illness.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_04: And I sort of process my faith out loud in public spaces around these things, answering questions like, where exactly is God?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_04: So, so my platform is based on transparency.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_04: So I almost I I owe it to my audience.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_04: I hate to use that phrasing because we don't I know what you mean, though.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_04: But my my audience expects me to write with a lot of transparency, yes, and to engage in storytelling about what's happened in my life.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_04: So I think thing, you know, really getting a good handle on, you know, what number one, what are people looking for when they come to me?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_04: And number two, am I willing to change that, to expand that, yeah, to add a little more transparency, understanding there might be some risk if I make that choice.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_04: I think just sort of spending some time thinking about those two questions can really help us come to an individual answer for what makes sense for us.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great response.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's really, really thoughtful and articulate.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I appreciate you sharing that.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, that's that's really, really good.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: So it really does depend on what your platform is and what people are coming to you for.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I suppose there is there's a time and a place for for sharing things and a time and a place for not sharing things.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, let's say somebody like uh if you are a uh a fiction author of a certain genre, um that could really be a distraction if you're oversharing too much about your personal life.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: If mostly your feed is about fiction and storytelling and those kinds of things, you know, like people go to George Lucas, well, not anymore, but you know, for many, many years they went to George Lucas for entertaining sci-fi stories in the form of Star Wars.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: Then all of a sudden, if he starts talking about his personal life issues, uh people are gonna be like, What?
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: We don't care, we we just want Star Wars, you know.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_04: Right, we're C3PO, what's going on here?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know what they have.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I suppose the more successful that somebody gets, somebody like him, where you're like leading a whole industry and all that, I'm sure that you become more guarded because the more the more wackos out there could use some of those things against you, and there's probably all kinds of of things that attorneys are warning them against and protections and all kinds of stuff.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I love your response about that.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's really insightful.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say is I guess getting back to this writing theme, um, so you've written several books now, um, and you're such a wonderful and articulate and thoughtful writer.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh with your own journey with mental illness and related things, what has been the role that writing has played for you in your own recovery and processing through those experiences?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, that's a great question.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_04: So going back to the very beginning when I first started blogging, my my blog probably should have been a private diary, and I was writing things that that really other people didn't need to read.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_04: Um but but it is definitely, you know, sort of starting there and moving forward.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_04: It has been a way for me to process the emotions and the questions that I have had.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_04: Um there are people who are external processors and people who are internal processors, right?
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I'm definitely an external processor.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_04: One of the ways that I've done that is through my writing.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_04: I I do a much better job of setting boundaries around I'm gonna do some writing that no one else is ever gonna see to sort of process through what's happening.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_04: And then, you know, and then a book like Resilience and Redeemed, you know, I'm writing that book.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_04: You know, it's a it's a a reflection of the processing that I've had to do.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_04: But it also is sort of it's for an audience, it's its intent is to be an inspiration, to be a hope, to give some direction.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I when I first started writing, I was missing that first piece.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_04: I remember how our our common friend Jim Woods, I wrote an I wrote a guest post for him many years ago, and there was a line in there that said, My wife doesn't even know this yet, comma, but and he was like, dude, you need to work on boundaries.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_04: No one should ever be reading this before your wife knows.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_04: And I didn't even realize I was doing that.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, oh, you are so right.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for that advice, Jim.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: Man, that is that is really, really good advice.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think when when you're when you're a writer at heart, that's what we do.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: We process through writing, you know.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's just kind of how we're wired.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's why we love doing this.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: But it's so easy just to put stuff out there, especially when when words come to us easily.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: We just put stuff out there and we share, and it's like, oh, maybe I shouldn't have said that, or maybe I should have edited that, or or whatever.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's just part of the part of the deal, I guess.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so part of what that looks like sort of functionally for me sometimes, you know, getting back to that advice that Jim had for me is because I really do I process very much through writing.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_04: So sometimes I'll I'll I'll journal something.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_04: And he'll be like, hey, I'll say to my wife, hey Barbara, I want you to read this because this is gonna explain where I'm at right now better than me trying to use words out loud.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_04: Because I'm I'm much more adept at uh communicating things through the written word than orally sometimes.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, me too.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm curious your thoughts on on this.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um so a lot of people ask me about ghostwriting.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, two things related to this.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm curious your thoughts on this.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um going back to the question of people's perceptions about our professionalism.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um if somebody is a ghostwriter, and I I guess I'm putting myself in in my own shoes here, and you're writing about your own struggles.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: So as somebody like looking at this on the outside, let's say you're a prospective client, you're looking for a ghostwriter, um and you're looking at somebody, and they have written some of the kinds of things that you have written, maybe confec kind of confessional things, very personal, um, some things that are maybe not very flattering, talking about struggles.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: For a typical ghostwriting client, do you think that would they perceive that would make that person a more attractive ghostwriter, or would they shy away from that more?
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: I know there's really not an answer to this, but I'm just sort of processing this out loud on behalf of ghostwriters who are listening to this because uh a lot of ghostwriters do come to me for advice about their career and so forth.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's definitely gonna definitely gonna depend on the clients.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_04: If I were in those shoes and I was thinking I want to find uh a ghostwriter to help me walk through this story idea that I have, this book idea that I have.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I I I would literally not care about the content.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_04: And I would just look and say, hey, while they're writing this confessional stuff, are they doing it well?
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: Is it a good story?
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: Can they write well?
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, right.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_04: That that's literally how I would approach it.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: Me too.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um, yeah, I I don't think that that I would have any concerns around, you know, well, is this person's opinions going to influence the way that they're going to write my story?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_04: Because by default, a ghostwriter isn't inserting themselves into the story.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_04: That's the job of the ghostwriter.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: We'll get back to the conversation in just a moment.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: But first I want to take a second to give a big thanks to today's sponsor, The Word Wizard.
• 36:56
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• 37:04
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• 37:12
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• 37:27
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• 37:33
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• 37:38
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• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: Now back to the conversation.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I really agree with that perspective.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and it's something that that people do ask me about occasionally is, you know, should I be concerned that maybe I have a certain point of view on this or I have opinions about these certain things, but maybe my perspective client doesn't?
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's pretty much irrelevant.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, you wouldn't want to if you if you are a faith-based client, you're look you would want somebody who understands your perspective.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't think you want somebody who's like an atheist.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I know plenty of atheists who are wonderful people, but you would want somebody who kind of understands your perspective and your world.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um at the same time, I've had actually people who are very much not from the Christian perspective who have asked me, because you're a Christian, is that going to influence how you can share my voice in my book?
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it works both ways.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, in fact, I would I think many times it's the people who don't come from a Christian perspective are they're concerned about about Christian people and the fact that they are not going to be able to set aside their own beliefs in order to write something from a different perspective because they see so much sort of vocal extremism out there from Christian people.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's something maybe Christian ghostwriters ought to be aware of is help your clients understand you you you you don't have to inject faith into everything that you write for clients, you know.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_04: No, that makes a lot of sense.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_04: I agree with you, Kans.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: What about the the professional writer who is going through a dark time right now and they're writing for clients, maybe they're a graphic designer or an editor or somebody doing some other kinds of services in the book world uh that require a lot of creativity and mental and emotional energy, but they're also struggling with their mental health.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they've had their own uh suicidal thoughts or they're in a very dark place.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you've been there before, Chris, many times.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um any suggestions that you would give to people who right now are just struggling to kind of get through the next day?
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, probably one of the best things that I did that helped me with my mental stability long term is I established a um uh a morning routine.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_04: I have a I have a list of four or five things that I do every single day.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_04: Uh well, coffee is number one.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_04: That doesn't really make a morning routine list, but I can't do anything before I have coffee.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_04: Um that's and and uh it takes about 20 minutes for me to walk through the things that are on my specific morning routine.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_04: And and what though what what these events allow me to do is it's like I am putting my stamp of authority on the day and saying by starting my day doing these specific things, I'm going to decide how my day goes.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not gonna be in reaction mode, I'm gonna decide what to do with my day.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_04: And that was that was surprisingly powerful for me.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_04: Wow, I didn't think it would be when I first started doing it.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_04: I was like my counselor suggested, and I was like, yeah, okay, I guess.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_04: But I but I found it really meaningful and it really helped.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I would encourage people as you think about, well, what are the sort of things you might want to put in your morning routine?
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_04: Some, you know, some sort of centering meditation, whether you whether faith is a part of your story or not, a centering meditation of some sort, where where you're just kind of identifying, okay, what what are the what are the types of thoughts that are running through my head right now in this day?
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_04: You know, and because that that can sort of that can help us to prepare.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_04: Like if the if if if we wake up and the thoughts that are in our head are very dark or very accusatory, then we can sort of by identifying that, it gives us ammunition to not just uh not not squander the day by by yes by giving in to those thoughts.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_04: Because a lot of the times we don't, you know, we get so busy doing, doing, doing, doing that we don't stop to go, well, what's the what's the character?
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_04: What are the characteristics of the thoughts that are embodying in my head right now?
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's hard to do, but that's that's so important, just this idea of being able to kind of step out of your own thoughts and view your own thoughts from the outside, and to be objective about that.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: Man, that's that's difficult to do, especially when when your thoughts are kind of in the crapper and you're down on yourself or you're tired or this thing is not going well, or any of a thousand other things that can go wrong.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, an analogy that was helpful for me to learn how to do that is was this.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe this will be helpful for some of your listeners.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_04: Um imagine your brain is a freeway with a bunch of cars going by, and every thought is a car.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_04: So you look at the car, you recognize some characteristics about the car.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe a freeway is a bad example, actually, because cars are going really fast.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_04: If you're standing on the freeway, you're not gonna have a chance to see them.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_04: So maybe a country road that has some some traffic is a better example.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_04: You know, you'll be able to notice some characteristics of that thought as it goes by, sort of and recognize oh, that's an that's a Jeep.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, that's a negative thought.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_04: And but not attach yourself to it and then let the thought go by and then pay attention to the next thought.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_04: I I found that freeway or country road analogy helpful because we we are very quick to take ownership of every thought that pops into our head.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_04: We we call them our thoughts, but there are all sorts of different places that thoughts can come from, especially if you have a trauma background.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_04: I have a trauma background, so there's all sorts of places that my thoughts that are unhealthy come from that that are that are not really mine.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_04: And then from a spiritual dynamic, there, you know, it depending on where where you are on your faith journey, you you may or may not believe that that God is someone who would speak to you, you know, or or our or an enemy might speak, speaks, speak some thought into your head.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_04: You know, so there's a lot happening.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_04: And when we just own every thought without examining it, then we're really doing ourselves a disservice.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great insight.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really great insight.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like we have to look at our minds as these unruly toddlers who are just constantly drawing our attention to this or that or this or that.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, but then we just we don't it's not like we have to obey those thoughts or those impulses.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's really the I guess the definition of self-control and maturity and you know, all those kinds of things.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's hard to do.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: Especially when you work from home all day and you know, if some people are just kind of they're still stuck in like the COVID, the COVID, uh what what would I call it, um malaise, you know, and they need to get out and build some relationships and get out of the house.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's hard to do, especially when you're a a full-time a full-time creative person.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think that presents challenges.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_04: I agree.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_04: That's why for for me, like a key part of what makes a morning routine work is it it's literally 15 to 20 minutes.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_04: You can do anything for 15 to 20 minutes.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_04: It's not two hours.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_04: It's not five hours.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not saying do a silent retreat for a weekend.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_04: Who has a weekend?
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_04: And how are you going to be silent that entire time?
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you know, five, 10, 15 minutes.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_04: We can build that kind of practice into our life.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's really, really doable.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, what other kinds of things are a part of your routine?
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: So you mentioned coffee, some type of meditation.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: Are there some other things that are really, really key things that you feel like make a big difference?
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_04: So, so for me, one of the things I I actually listen to a podcast called Pray Every Day by my, she happens to be my agent, Mary Demieux.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_04: Um, she she reads through a portion of scripture and then prays it back um over the people who were listening.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_04: It's really meaningful to me because it's a reminder.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_04: Sometimes I get I get caught in this thought that says, Well, the Bible was written thousands of years ago, it doesn't really have any application to my life, so I'm not gonna invest any time in it.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_04: And this show is a daily reminder to me that hey, even if you're reading through numbers, which is a rough book, because it's a bunch of numbers, like the first several.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_04: But it's literally numbers.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_04: You know, it even in a book like that, there's meaning and there's application.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_04: So that encourages me to think through um, you know, what are some avenues that God might want to speak to me?
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_04: And then another spiritual practice is uh this is a really short one.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_04: Uh there's there's this thing called breath prayers, where literally on the inhale you say a short sentence, and then the exhale you say another short sentence.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_04: Let me give you an example.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_04: So on your breath in, speak to me, Lord.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_04: On your breath out, I am listening.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_04: It's a form of meditation, really, is what it is.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_04: And and by and it's a way for me to sort of stop everything and just focus in on what is, you know, what what what I'm experiencing in the moments.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_04: I pay a lot of attention to my body in those moments.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_04: I can't say like when I pray that prayer, it's not really with an expectation that God's gonna say something audible to me.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_04: It's not about that, it's about the practice of stopping and slowing down and paying attention and and listening to what my body is communicating to me, which is another really hard practice.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: I guess that's a way of also giving up control, you know, because you're acknowledging there is there is something other.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in our case, you know, we believe that there's a God that's the God of the Bible, etc.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_01: But even if someone doesn't come from that perspective, it kind of seems obvious like that there are other entities at work in the world that are more powerful than us.
• 48:32
  unknown: Yeah.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: And even if somebody is like an avowed atheist, I think there's still a lot of value in just pausing and meditating and whatever faith perspective you come from or don't come from, just sort of giving up control and and inviting inviting that that otherness into your life and your spirit.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that seems to be a pretty healthy thing.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_04: I agree.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_04: It's been really meaningful for me.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_04: That and a lot of it is that slow down process.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_04: That's really, you know, just just like we were talking about mindfulness with the freeway analogy.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_04: Gosh, it's always go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_04: And we never stop and and and think and examine.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_04: We just do.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_04: And these practices that, you know, especially in the context of taking control, taking some ownership, take, you know, taking some agency for our own life and our own mental health.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_04: These things are really important.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_04: Because we're not just reacting, we're not just amoebas that are reacting to stimuli in our environment.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: I do want to ask you about uh sort of taking a hard right turn here, um, before we wrap this up.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, is I want to ask you about your your publishing pathways, because you have self-published and you've traditionally published, and so you you kind of have been down both sides of the aisle at this point.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a conversation I frequently have with people is what is the right publishing pathway for them?
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, whether it's traditional or I guess hybrid as well, um or self-publishing.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: So with this latest book, uh, I know you went with the publisher, Bethany House specifically.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh great publisher.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: I've got a lot of their books.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you have an agent, Mary Demuth.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, she was actually on the show last year.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: Great conversation.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: She's a wonderful person.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: She is.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um any thoughts for writers as to maybe which direct if they're considering which publishing path is right for them.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: How do you know which pathway to go and and why for this book did you choose traditional publishing instead of self-publishing?
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_04: Sure.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_04: So let me sort of frame it within my story and how things worked out for me.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so 2016, I started pitching what became my first book, Perfectly Abnormal, uncovering the image of God in chronic illness.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_04: I started pitching that to agents because I was convinced that it was an idea that needed to be out there.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_04: And what I got from every single agent I pitched it to was, you don't have a big enough platform.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_04: I can't help you.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_04: So then I had to sort of make a decision.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_04: Do I believe that the message of this book is worthwhile enough to invest my own money?
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_04: Because you have no idea when you self-publish if you're going to make back the money you invest or not.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_04: And I spent a lot of time thinking about that, talking with my wife about it.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we decided to move forward with it.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and at that point, I had sort of decided, well, every book that I'm going to publish, I'm going to have to self-publish.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_04: I'm going to have to independently publish it.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_04: Because I don't think that I'm going to wake up one day and have 50,000 people on my social media following list.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_04: I don't see that happening.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_04: So we we moved I did the same thing with Whispers in the Pews, where we self-published that book.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_04: And what happened with both of those books that's really important to the rest of my journey is they sold very well.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_04: Between the two of them, I sold about 15,000 copies of the book.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_04: So what that did is that got people's attention.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_04: And so so, and then I I happened to already have a relationship with Mary.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_04: She was actually mentoring me and about and several other writers at the time she decided to become an agent.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_04: So I really soft pitched her.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, hey, I don't even know if you're interested.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not a big author.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_04: I was like trying to beat myself down before I even finished the question.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_04: And and I know that you're, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_04: But would you be interested in maybe representing me?
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_04: And she was like, Chris, I you asked me before I had a chance to ask you.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_04: I would love to represent you.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_04: And so so there's two things that came out of that for me.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_04: The first was I had proof of concept that people want to buy what I read.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_04: And the second is I was lucky enough to have a relationship with someone who was an agent.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_04: So I wasn't some random person saying, nobody knows me, but by help me sell my book.
• 53:31
  unknown: Right.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_04: So there were some unique circumstances that sort of helped me there.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_04: Um and then we just started pitching book ideas.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_04: It's funny, with this Bethany book, we pitched a different book idea to them.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_04: They liked my writing.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_04: So they went onto my website and saw that on my one of my speaking sessions that I that I do for people is resilience and other things I learned in the psych ward.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_04: So they came back to Mary and said, We like Chris's writing.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_04: We think that he's a compelling author.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_04: Could he write this book instead for us?
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_04: So of course I was like, no, I'm kidding.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_04: Of course, I said yes.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_04: And that's the book that became Resilience and Redeem.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_04: So I wasn't necessarily planning on writing that book at the time that it was that that that happened.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_04: But when someone says, could you do this?
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_04: and they're a publisher, you say yes.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you process that um like from a money perspective and a business perspective as an author, especially because you come from a money background, you know, you're you're an accountant, so you you get the way all these things work to a depth that most writers don't.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_01: So with self-publishing, you have more control, you're keeping a lot more of the money, at least ideally.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and you control the IP, you can do with it what you want.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: At the same time, you're having to pay for everything and you're in charge of very definition of self-publishing.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: With a publisher like Bethany House, you're giving up your IP, you're getting percentage-wise, much less than you would if you self-published.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: You have an agent who's taking their cut.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so in exchange for that, do you feel like the some of the marketing that they will do in the reach of the book because you have a publisher, do you feel like that outweighs the things that you're giving up by going with them?
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like I guess what I'm asking is how do you arrive at the decision to use a publisher for this versus doing it yourself?
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_04: This is another one of those things that's a really personal decision.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_04: And the reason that I say that it's it's sort of personal rather than nuts and bolts or dollars and cents is because um there are people who really enjoy owning the IP and really enjoy finding the editor and being in charge of the final book design.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_04: And then there are people who just want to write the damn book and let everyone else do everything else.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_04: And I definitely fall into that second category.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_04: Like I was so stressed with trying, like, I think specifically of whispers in the pews.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_04: I found a cover designer, Melinda Martin, who did an incredible job for me.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: She's great.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_04: But but prior to that, I had I had found someone else, and he sent me a book cover, and it was hot garbage.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_04: It was a disaster.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_04: It looked like a black hole with a purple tint.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_04: I kid you not.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, I don't really know what you're going for here, but this isn't what I'm going for.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_04: This is the creative vibe that I got from what you gave me.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_04: And we went back and forth a couple of times, and he was like a hundred percent unwilling to listen to me saying, This is not what I want.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_04: I need something different.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_04: So part so for me, not having to be engaged with that, instead being able to say to someone, I like this book cover, or could we tweak it in this way?
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_04: And letting them be the final decision maker is much more relaxing for me.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I but as far as the marketing piece, what I will say is that uh publishers, especially for newer authors, are not going to do a ton for you.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_04: Any perception that they are is just kind of not accurate.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_04: What Bethany has done for me is they've given me probably about 70 images for me to post on social media that I didn't have to create myself, which is golden.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_04: Because again, I don't really I'm creative as a writer.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not artistically creative.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_04: That stuff stresses me out.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_04: Like I don't enjoy doing it.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_04: So having, you know, I just just today I had them drop a nut drop into my Dropbox another 30 images of the book in a variety of different environments.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, oh, this is great.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_04: I was running out of pictures.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_04: Now I don't have to make any more.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: But you also get an advance from them, obviously, as an author.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: Which which is nice, you know.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, and I I and that's what I wanted to ask this, Chris, is because I love that answer.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because some authors don't want to mess with all the self-publishing stuff.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_01: Some authors do.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's the beauty of the world that we live in today is you do have options.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: And there are different pathways, and you have options even for different books that you have, that one might be a great fit for a publisher, one might be a great fit for self-publishing or whatever.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um so so yeah, I love that answer, and I love your honesty about that because I think there are a lot of authors who feel like you do, in the sense of, man, I just don't, I don't I'm tired and I don't want to be in charge of all these things, and I want a partnership with somebody who's going to take care of some of those things.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, you're giving up some things, but when you when you have to you have to consider the totality of your life when making those decisions.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't have the time or the energy or the desire to be a big project manager, then working with the publisher could be a great answer to that.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_04: No, I agree with you.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_04: And for me, it's like the way I would say it for me personally is this I have great hope that I'll never have to independently publish a book again.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_04: That's not always that's not entirely up to me, obviously.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_04: But I much prefer the let me give you some money on the front end to write the book, and then we're gonna manage the process and you write the book, yeah, and then you'll get sort of the pittance on the back end after you earn out the royalty, right?
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_04: The the royalty advance, assuming that you do.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_04: Like that whole scenario just works better for my life.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, which is awesome, and that that reduces your stress and just allows you to do the thing that brings you joy.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now I am curious.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_01: I guess before we I said this 10 minutes ago, so I lied, I guess.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_01: But this this is sort of my last question here.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um so you mentioned selling about 15,000 copies of your first couple books.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_01: What marketing strategies did you use to be able to move that many self-published books?
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's a lot compared to what most self-published books do.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I you're gonna be really disappointed with this answer, and um it's a grand mystery to me why so many copies sold.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_04: What I can tell you is that I had for each book, I had a I I was able to place an article in a really significant uh-huh, uh really significant online publication.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_04: And and in both cases, the article went somewhat viral.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_04: For Whispers in the pews, it was posted on Crosswalk.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_04: Uh-huh.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_04: And that article got somewhere north of 800,000 views.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: So that made a big difference, obviously.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_04: And so my my pre-launch numbers for that book were insane.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_04: I I moved something like 5,000 copies before the book ever released.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_04: Like I was wondering if my Amazon dashboard was broken, sort of good.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, this does not make sense.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_04: How did this happen?
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_01: But that is, but I mean, there's obviously a connection there, which goes to show the value of getting into large publications.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_04: And then I think I so with Whispers in the Pews, that that's a unique book because it's a collection of essays from I think 17 different people.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_04: That book moved more copies than perfectly abnormal.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_04: So some of the reason that happened is because we had 17 different people pushing on social media.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_01: And did you pay those people or did they just submit stuff voluntarily and then you paid for the editing and other things?
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_01: Or how did that work?
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I I paid them uh a small stipend and then I managed the rest of the process.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then did you have them sign off on uh like hey, so you didn't continue to have to pay them royalties after the book came out?
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_01: They you just paid them a one-time thing and that was it.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_04: And and you know, there there's some part of me that feels almost bad because we sold so many copies of that book.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_04: It worked out well for me, you know.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_04: And but I had no expectation that I was gonna move 10,000 plus copies of that book when when we published it.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_04: I was thinking 500 maybe.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think a big part of your success also is that you're just a really good writer.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like that in my mind is a is a huge factor in this is that you're just exceptional at it.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a craft and a storytelling to it that that I think is rare.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, just the value of the importance of having a really great product.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like we I cannot understate that.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, although that you know there are a lot of books that are not very well written, but they sell a crap ton of copies.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that's not the only factor, but uh, but I think it is a factor because your books are just really well done, and I cannot wait to read this new one as well.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_04: So thank you for that.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_04: I'm excited for it as well.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_01: Chris, where can people go to learn more about um resilient and redeemed, your other books and other things that you're doing?
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_04: My home base is Chrismorrisrights.com.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_04: And then along the top, there's uh there's a menu item that says books, so you can look at all the books that are available there.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_04: I do want to mention for resilient and redeemed, um at least for pre-orders.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know how the when this is going to be released, so this might not be relevant.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but for pre-orders, Baker Bookhouse has a 40% off sale on this book.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_04: So you can pick it up for under$11 with free shipping.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_01: What's the date that this comes out again?
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_01: June 11th.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_01: June 11th.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a Tuesday, correct?
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let me look and see here.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think books usually come out on Tuesdays, so that is June 11th.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, would it work better for this to, and I should be doing this offline, I guess, but is it better for you if this comes out uh the Thursday before or after the book release?
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_01: Probably before.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll set this to release on June the 6th, I think it is.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that way people can pre-order.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I know I know those pre-order numbers are really important to publishers because they can see the potential a book has, and sometimes that it that's that helps them decide how many books to print and retailers and all the ecosystems and all that jazz.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, I agree.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_01: This has been a blast, Chris.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_01: This conversation went in a lot of directions I didn't anticipate.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's all good.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's all really, really good stuff.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_01: You're an inspiration to me.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate your friendship and the craft of your writing and just being a voice for people who want to be mentally healthy.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that is is more important than it's ever been.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate you leading the way with that.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_01: And and uh just wish you all the success in the world with this new book and your future books as well.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you again.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you, Ken, for having me.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_04: I really appreciate it.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what can I really say after that conversation?
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um hopefully you have gotten a sense firsthand by listening to this episode uh of some of the things that I mentioned at the top of this episode in my introduction, that Chris is such a generous and kind spirit.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I love the fact that he just kind of openly talks about his journey with mental illness and suicidal ideations and being in the psych ward and you know, all the things that most of us would hesitate to talk about publicly, but I have so much admiration and love and respect for Chris because he is just kind of an open book when it comes to his journey.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: And my goodness, what an inspiring individual and what an amazing author as well.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_01: So make sure and grab his book, Resilient and Redeemed, Lessons about Suicidality and Depression from the Stockword.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's really, really a fantastic resource.
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_01: And also grab his other books too.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_01: They're all really, really good.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I want to give a big thanks and a shout out to Chris for being a guest on today's episode, and a shout out again to my good friend Jim Woods for making the introduction to Chris a number of years ago.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_01: My life is better because of you guys.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_01: As always, thanks for listening, and I'll see you next time.