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Harvard. McKinsey. Her Own Advisors Nearly Bankrupted Her | So-Young Kang, Gnowbe · Founder F**K ups

• Ben Bagg: So Young has spent her career being the expert in the room, Harvard MBA, ex-Makkenzie, World Economic Forum Young Global Leader. She's built Awaken Group, spun out Gnowbe, and has advised leaders on four continents, which makes this one hurt a little more. Because when it came to her own company, she listened to too many experts. She built an advisory council, took every voice seriously, and never went all in on the strategy she actually believed in. pulled in every direction, half committed to everything, it nearly costs to the whole company. So she did something most founders never do. She disbanded the council, restructured the business and turned it around her way. Today, how to take advice about drowning in it and when to follow the crazy. So young, welcome to the pod. So-Young: Angst Ben, I'm super happy to be here and I love how you framed it. Ben Bagg: Well I appreciate that. well take take us back. which company was it? What what stage were you at when you sort of kind of had these voices kind of applying too much advice at you? So-Young: I was a first-time tech founder and as a tech first-time tech founder in Southeast Asia because I'm from the US, I'm from New York and LA. I, you know, was building this tech company. I built it in San Francisco and in Singapore simultaneously. And you know, I thought I should take advice from people who are wiser than I. especially in in the in the SaaS space. So I formed an advisory council made up of both investors and experts from both San Francisco and Singapore. So the story Ben Bagg: Okay. So-Young: will unfold as I talk about the differences in those two cultures and Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: being yo-yoed between literally two different cultures. Ben Bagg: time out guys. Lots of you are watching, lots of you are learning from the founder fuckups that we've all gone through, but please do me one little teeny favour and subscribe so that we can keep growing the channel and get more great founders on. Back to the episode. Yeah. A quick one, th w why did you decide that was it because you came from that advisory background, because you had the advisory business that you felt, hey, I'm starting this, I'm I'm coming in a little bit inexperienced with SAS, let me bring in all the advisors possible because that was kind of the habit you had built with Awaken. So-Young: Yes and no. I first of all I think every wise leader should take advice and counsel from many people. So that's more of a leadership principle. So I live I still believe in that today. Despite disbanding it, I still believe in that. and I'll talk about that in a second. I think secondly, I was looking for credibility. Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: And so some of our advisors were very, very credible and were able to open doors for us in different markets with different clients. That was very, very Ben Bagg: Yeah, okay. So-Young: important from a fundraising perspective, but also a client perspective. And third is I just genuinely like them and I believe that they're super smart and experienced, and I wanted to learn from them, right? So, you know, and I wanted them to challenge my thinking and help me to see things that I I can't see because I've never seen them before. And Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: I think and many of them really did help me with that. So I, you know, Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: they think they were different experts, and I wanted to have a well-rounded advisory board, an advisory council, and I did. People who were from the HR space, people from the people Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: space, people from the investor space, the tech space, and across the US and Asia, because Novi was co-founded in both Singapore and San Francisco simultaneously. Ben Bagg: Yeah. And how how did the initial council get formed? How did it start to come together? 'Cause you mentioned you've got people in both cities 'cause you're launching in both cities. And at what point did the advice start to create sort of paralysis? So-Young: Yeah. So I so I'll talk a little bit about the different cultures. It started very early. So as I would meet someone who was able to provide their expertise and some of it was expertise for equity, right? Which is a very common Ben Bagg: Mm-hmm. So-Young: Silicon Valley model where you know you can't afford to pay these guys, but then you know, they get a little bit of equity, advisor equity, and then they come along. So we had some folks, you know, from you know, SAP, we had former I even had a former one of the senior leaders from Udemy, right, because we're in similar space. At the time we were co we were wondering whether we should compete. I decided to move in a different direction. But nonetheless, so we had kind of those guys. And on and that was formed really early on. And so the American Silicon Valley, especially not just American, but I would say Silicon Valley culture is very much about grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, fail fast, fail fast, fail fast. Don't worry about profit, just go for it and grow as fast as you can. Then I had my Singapore side. So then I had Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: you know w one of my first investors is, you know, one of the most well-known angel investors in Singapore, if not the most. And so I had a lot Ben Bagg: Mm-hmm. So-Young: of very big names on my cap table very, very early on. And that opened tons of doors for other investors to come in. Because once his name was on the cap table, then I got other investors and you know, very, very experienced. So Ben Bagg: Mm. So-Young: so both of those were formed and then I would meet with them one-on-one. And then sometimes we would have quarterly meetings to bring together the different experts together. Now what ended up starting to Ben Bagg: Okay. So-Young: happen Is the culture. So single poor culture is very different. The questions I was getting asked was around when are you going to be profitable? What is your what is your your the bottom line? When are and so Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: achieving profitability as an early stage startup is very different than driving growth at all costs. Ben Bagg: Yes. So-Young: So s we were in the unique position because I had already built the Awaken group and now I was the chairman of Awaken, I stepped down as a CEO to be the full-time CEO of Novi. And Ben Bagg: Mm-hmm. So-Young: because I had done that, you know, we were good at getting enterprise clients because we had them. So we got to our Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: first million and our first paid customers really, really fast. And so then the US side is saying, go, go, go, go, go, keep going. Ben Bagg: Broke more, ten exit, let's get to ten million. Yeah, yeah. So-Young: 10x, right? Just keep going. Go, go, go, go, go. Then the Asian side is like cost management. And then also there is a little bit of a kiasu, like a more critical culture in Asia, which is questions everything. And that's not it's not good or bad. They're just very different cultures. I still highly it Ben Bagg: So style, yeah. So-Young: I still highly respect the advisors on both sides. And they were very Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: helpful to me at different times. But unbeknownst to me. What was starting to happen and I didn't realize it at the time, had I realized it earlier, I would have disbanded earlier. But what was happening is because the majority of my and because I'm based in Asia, I would then meet with the advisory council in Asia and I had more advisors from Asia. Ben Bagg: More frequently. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And so their voice is gonna become a little bit louder just because it's more more common and you're meeting them probably for coffees and and what have you, right? 'Cause So-Young: That's right. And we're meeting them in person at my office for a couple of hours. Right? Where the US Ben Bagg: Yeah, yeah. So-Young: ones, I'm on calls with them, maybe once a quarter. Yeah. So then I'm getting and I'm also living in Asia. And so I've been living now in Singapore for 16 years, right? So then the culture of constantly criticizing or asking, like why? Why would that work? Tell me all the reasons why that would work. So I would come up with strategies. And and honestly, as a founder, you don't know if they're gonna work. You go with your gut Ben Bagg: No. So-Young: and you're like, you know what, I'm gonna go for this and I'm gonna try it. And so in the US Exactly. So in the US, Ben Bagg: Hypothesis makes sense, let's go for it. Let's give it a try. Yeah. So-Young: I had grown up in the US where my whole life I have never been told I was wrong. That's American culture. And and even Ben Bagg: Now you're in Singapore. So-Young: even my Asian father, who was not very Asian culturally, would never tell me I was wrong. It was always, yeah, you can do it. Let's go build it. Let's go do it. And when I told when I failed, my father would say, now my late father, he left when I failed my Ben Bagg: Hm. So-Young: first exam. And he was like, That's great. Now you know what you're not good at. Go focus on something else. Ben Bagg: Sounds like a good bag. Yeah. So-Young: So mean he was an amazing father. So, but but American culture, teachers don't tell you you're wrong. They say, what did you learn from that? How Ben Bagg: Yes. So-Young: can you grow from that experience? and they don't dwell on the mistake. I could fail Ben Bagg: Yes. So-Young: today with zero fear. I'll go back to the US and I could probably make more money. Because they'll Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: say, Wow, you have great experience now that you've gone through that. What did you learn from it, right? Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: Asia is very different. Ben Bagg: Very different. So-Young: So you fail and then there's your reputation is ruined, you ruin the reputation of your parents and your grandparents and it's Ben Bagg: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So-Young: you you lose face and all these things. So the risk appetite is very different. So what was Ben Bagg: I think that's a big reason or another reason why I actually started Founder Fuck Ups is what you're talking about here, 'cause I'm here in Asia too and it's kind of between KL and Singapore and most of the time and a bit of Hong Kong. And it's the same thing. People are afraid to admit any mistake or error. And then they they So-Young: Yeah. Ben Bagg: hide from it and you go to any event and everyone's got their little face on, like, no, everything's great, everything's wonderful and they're all just dying inside. So-Young: And they're lying. And they're lying. Ben Bagg: And no one's talking about going, Hey, you know what? I'm really fucking struggling right now. Do you have any advice for this? Because no one wants to admit that. so I hear exactly what you're saying. So-Young: Absolutely. Which is why I absolutely love what you're doing, Ben. I think it's so important. I co-founded the Founders Coaching Pause, which is then the Ben Bagg: Mm. So-Young: precursor to C Founders. And one of the things that we're very passionate about, it's I think the largest ecosystem of post-Series A founders across Southeast Asia, I believe. But one of the things we talk about is your mistakes. And we have really frank talks at our Founders Coaching Pods retreat where we want founders to talk about the biggest mistakes they've made. So we should probably get you and your founders to come on. But it's Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: it's super important to talk about them. And I don't really see them as mistakes. They're opportunities to grow and to learn. And Ben Bagg: Absolutely. So-Young: without those mistakes, how am I ever gonna learn and grow and be sharpened? So anyway, Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: so fast forward to your original question. So seven years in, I realized that every time I would have a growth strategy, instead of going all in, those voices of why would that work? and questioning all of my decisions, which I had not experienced before, were starting to really impact my psychology, my psyche. And yes, and then also my confidence levels were dropping. And Ben Bagg: creating a lot of uncertainty then and then that probably started to get that reality. Yeah. So-Young: I'm a pretty confident person. I've vo I usually just go in and I do things and I just go for it. And you know, and most of the time it works. Yeah, so far. All Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: of a sudden I'm in this tech sas world. I'm trying to, I'm going for things that I believe in my gut are gonna work. But then I keep getting questioned like why would and I'm constantly having to be on the defensive to defend why I think the things that I'm doing. And sometimes Ben Bagg: Justify your position. So-Young: quite honestly you can't explain them. Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: as a founder you just you just know. if you were to ask Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: Elon Musk why he's building spaceships, does he have a real rationale? maybe? is is it a financial rationale? Probably. Ben Bagg: A multiplanetary species. So-Young: why? Right? Why? So, you know, and that's an extreme example, but sometimes you can't really articulate it. So then I spent all this Ben Bagg: Not yeah. So-Young: time trying to justify my decisions and then questioning, maybe I maybe I missed something. Maybe I don't know the market as well as I thought. You know, maybe this isn't such a great idea. So then I was taking half steps, like one step in, one step out. And then it was only seven years when we nearly bankrupt the company. And then I've Ben Bagg: So what w when did you start to realize that all this kinda you know, you're having the wait So-Young: twenty twenty three. Ben Bagg: twenty twenty-three. That's when you're like, shit, this company is going to end if I don't shut up the boys. So-Young: Correct. Correct. Ben Bagg: What was the trick like how did you know it was the noise? How did it cause you know, like said, it took a big psychological toll on you? Maybe you start to think, well maybe I'm wrong. Like what how did So-Young: Exactly. Ben Bagg: you give how did you go, you know what? Fuck the advice. I'm just gonna sort this out. Like what what made you do that? So-Young: Yeah. Well I didn't use those specific words, but yeah. so Ben Bagg: My pot, I'm swearing. So-Young: so so twenty twenty three we were nearly bankrupt and Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: we were essentially struggling and then I I was like, you know what, let me just sell the company because we have revenue, we have paying customers with a great product and luckily within two weeks we had three offers. Ben Bagg: wow. So-Young: So I was like, okay, at least I'll have a nice exit. well, not a nice exit. The price wasn't great, Ben Bagg: You're gonna escape the bankruptcy. So-Young: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The price wasn't great, but three exits, right? One was a private equity fund, one was a publicly traded company, and one was a private company from the US and from Singapore. So I was at least I felt assured that we have an exit. And so I was deciding on one of those three. So we were in due diligence. And then a week before I was literally about to sign the company off, I actually prayed and I had did a three-day prayer fast. And one of my employees said to me crying, Don't sell the company. She said, What you built is amazing. And whatever the buyer is gonna do, you can do yourself, which is to restructure it. Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: And I was like, you're right, I can do it. But then that whole week, I had the opportunity to reflect and to pause and be still. And in Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: that stillness, I started to realize what was happening to me and what had happened Ben Bagg: Mm. So-Young: and then my psychology and all these things that had happened. Ben Bagg: Mm. So-Young: So it was a period of time and then I had this aha moment that, my gosh, I can't believe I'm someone who coaches other people and I talk about culture all the time. And Ben Bagg: Yeah. Yeah. Mm. So-Young: I thought if anyone would be immune to this kind of negativity or critical culture, I would be because I would I have a really strong foundation Ben Bagg: It'll be yeah. So-Young: of positivity and of optimism of people believing in me. But I was also impacted so much by that and that was kind of a scary thought. Ben Bagg: Do you think 'cause something I've spoken with my former partner as well. like when you stop and you just take a breath, and so in this case, all right, business wasn't going well, you were nearly bankrupt, you're about to go bankrupt, and then you were like, right, let's sell, let's get we've got free offers and at which point that actually enabled you to have a breathing space 'cause you're like, okay, we're gonna be okay. And you took that week where you didn't have to go on this the the kind of the rat race, the the the what's it called, the hamster wheel, just of survival. And you were able to breathe and then see what was going on for real. Do you think that pause actually helped enable that space for you? So-Young: Yeah, absolutely. And and but you're still in the hamster wheel because what had to happen was we needed capital. So what happened after Yeah, Ben Bagg: Hmm, should have had bells. So-Young: yeah. So what happened after I did my three-day prayer fast, Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: two miracles happened. One is capital came in to help us with our shortfall. And then two senior sales guys came to work at the company, almost volunteered at Ben Bagg: Wow. So-Young: like a fraction of what they actually would cost. Ben Bagg: Wow. So-Young: just miraculous. Ben Bagg: Did the but d the was the cash miraculously, someone just basically knocked on your door and said, Hey So Young, I wanna support you get some cash to get you to the next step. So-Young: there have been many miracles along the way, but I knew this person and then I shared what I was sensing, and then the person Ben Bagg: Yeah, yeah. So-Young: basically was like, I'll give you the money. And I was like, What? It was just it was just it happened so fast, and then I Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: I just took it as a sign that I wasn't meant to sell the company. So then I Ben Bagg: Yeah. y if that's a sign. If anything is a sign, that is a sign, right? So-Young: Yeah, so so then I didn't sell it. And then as I was reflecting during that whole period, but you're right that the pause is so important because then you start to reflect. And I know I tend to self coach, you know, 'cause I you know, I think as Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: an executive coach, you should always be self coaching or coaching or getting coached. I think that's Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: super important. All leaders need to be coached. I have like three or four at Ben Bagg: Agreed. As a coach. So-Young: three or four different coaches that I will go to. So even as I coach, I'm coach depending on different seasons of life. And there might be different coaches I go to depending on what I'm going through. And so Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: but I also self-coach, right? And so I was then reflecting on why have I lost confidence? So it's it's actually a negative spiral. You don't go all Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: in, so you don't get the good results, which then further reinforces that you don't know what you're doing or you're you could do things better, therefore you get more advice, then you continue to go half, then you have bad results, right? Ben Bagg: Mm, this is the spiral of doom. So-Young: It's a spiral. But luckily then at one point I was like, what is the source of that? And where did my confidence go? And then and then it was this and for me like I do a lot of prayer, so I pray a lot. And so as I prayed, I got a this insight about that. And then I decided, you know what? I need to shut out any negativity and I just need to cut all of it out. Ben Bagg: So you just came to the conclusion that the negativity was destroying any form of opportunity that you could create. And From that you realised that it was coming from the advisors who were like going, Well, that's maybe not a great idea, that's not what just you know. And how did you then make the decision to basically disband this council? Because obviously you you've now like we're gonna block it out. So the next step is, how do you block it out? And you went with get rid of the advisors. Like how did you make that decision? So-Young: Well, I think once I realized the root cause of it, the root cause which is my own psychology, then it was the decision was easy. Yeah, so once I decided Ben Bagg: Okay. It was just like bang. So-Young: that, I need to nurture what's in betwe what's what's here. And Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: especially as a founder, your psych your emotions, your vision, your mental state. Is absolutely critical for the success and failure of your company. It is the number one most important thing. And so I said, if this is the problem and I'm the problem, which I've always said, I think founders are the problem, the and they're also the opportunity, right? So I said, okay, well I need to stop that and I need to take away the negativity. Then I literally spoke to the advisors and I said, I'm sorry, I'm going to be disbanding this. This is not an actual board anyway. Ben Bagg: How did that go? How did that go? So-Young: this is Ben Bagg: Because cause these are like you mentioned. The last several years of being a coach myself and doing our events and things is the average age of these early stage entrepreneurs are like twenty-five to thirty-five. So-Young: Yeah. Mm. Ben Bagg: Right. And so let's say you've got this amazing number one angel investor in Singapore who opens all these doors and you've got to go and tell and you're like twenty eight or or whatever young entrepreneur, you've got to and tell that person, Sorry, I've got to get rid of you. You're too negative. That would be a nerve wracking thing for any young entrepreneur. So how did you go about it so that the young entrepreneurs who might need to follow your footsteps can can tackle and stuff? So-Young: first of all I didn't say that. So because the truth is Ben Bagg: Ha ha ha. So-Young: I still totally respect and admire their experience Ben Bagg: Course. So-Young: and their expertise. I just felt that at the stage of where we were, I needed time Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: to reflect, to step away, and actively even managing this advisory council took up my time. Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: And I needed to focus my time and energy in rebuilding and restructuring and building this company. So I Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: basically, you know, and you and I always, you know, I give advice is do everything with a smile and do things gently and gracefully. You know, you're not trying to you know, there's the I mean, every they've been super helpful. I'm very grateful for them. Some of Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: them aren't my investors. I have no bad feelings. I mean, there's Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: a cultural difference. It's not a criticism, it's just different. Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: And so perhaps if I grew up in Asia, that would motivate me. So I he I I coach senior Asian leaders where they're used to that level of criticism and that motivates them to perform better. I grew up in a different culture where for me that's demotivating, it's not motivating. Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: So it it wasn't about you guys suck and now I don't want your advice anymore. It was just, hey, I think at this stage I need to spend time focusing on restructuring. I'm going to Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: disband this council. If I need advice, I'll go to you one-on-one individually. Thank you so much for everything you've done to contribute and help us to get to this point. I know we're in difficult period, but I just need time and space to restructure and rebuild this company in what I think is best. And you know, I hope it goes well, but I won't guarantee that. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Did you get pushback? So-Young: Some, yeah. I mean most of the most of the folks were totally okay and understood. They're very experienced business people. And you know, Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: I actually as an investor, I'm also an investor, right? You know, nine out of ten. No, nineteen out of twenty fail. Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: So, you know, some people write us off after time. Like it just your your investors are different. If they're mature investors, we're not the only investment they have. Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: So, th they're not gonna be a lot of pushback. If there's pushback, it's usually for other reasons. So we did have, you know, one or two that Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: were quite challenging. And I just had to say I'm sorry, but you're not actually on the board. You don't really have a vote here. And Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: and you know, I appreciate your time. I appreciate all you've done to help me. I will definitely reach out to you if I need your help. But then I just We cannot continue this cycle because it's Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: unproductive and I need to spend time for the sake of all of our investors and for our team on building this company. Ben Bagg: Yeah, you kinda go put the elephant in the room on a su on a subject like that, really. yeah. So-Young: Yeah. You just have to call it. And it's it's it's but you have to depersonalize it. So the advice you cannot personalize it. This is not about a person. This Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: is about doing what is best for everyone involved. Ben Bagg: Yeah, agreed. And so once you've done this, you know, we've we've realized that we need to just get down and focus, remove the negativity, you've removed or disbanded our advisory council. What's your next step? What's the first thing you started to do when you're restructuring? Where did where did you first go all in on? 'Cause before you weren't really able to all in So-Young: Well f well first if for er all the founders who've been through this and I think most founders who've been around for a while will have had cash flow issues and have had all these issues, is first you have to protect your cash flow. So we had to restructure, I think we Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: had to downsize by over fifty percent and just you Ben Bagg: Okay, that's true. So-Young: know and and and basically get our costs under control and to reduce all the expenses, right? So as we did that, we had to also cut off our growth engine. And so, you know, and that was painful, you know, but you have to do what's best. You have to survive first. Cash is king. So Ben Bagg: Yeah. Yeah. So-Young: once you get your cash, so I had to basically just spend time on getting cash in order and then turning the cash around. And then you also have to Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: maintain. So because we're we're we're we had we have a very strong existing customer base. who are very loyal. We've had customers who've only been with us since the begin beginning of the company Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: and we have some large enterprises. So we double down on growing and expanding our existing customers because we cut off our Ben Bagg: But no I'll So-Young: yeah, because we cut off our growth engine, right? So we didn't have marketing and sales anymore. So we focus on existing customers and then we Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: are and then we basically double down on the product. And this is where then in 2024 we're starting to turn the company around and then AI comes into the picture. And then we start Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: to invest in AI and building our own agentic AI platform. So you Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: know, and so we spend time, you know, I think 24, 25, the last couple of years, retooling, recoding the entire platform. in order to do that while we were essentially becoming cash flow positive. So within less than Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: a year we became cash flow positive. and I did it the old school way, which is coming from my business background, I know how to build a profitable business. You know, it's you cut cost out or you grow revenues. It's just one of those two things. And so you Yeah, so you focus on those things. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pretty much beautiful. So-Young: You need customers and and and you need you need a team. So once we did that and then we were able to then to reinvest in building this agency AI platform, which was the biggest pain point we had for customer adoption, then we solved that problem by building and taking our methodology and building the AI agent. And we took 10, clearly no close to 10 years of data points, millions of data points, expertise, and then turned that into an AI agent and trained our AI agent. So now Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: that AI agent was able to close the bridge between manual training design and automation Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: from months to literally five minutes, five to ten minutes. Ben Bagg: Obviously the product enhancement is incredible. You spent a year sorting out the cash. What was the first sign for you when you're like, shit, this this is working now? we're we're on our way. We're we're starting to move upwards. We're no longer surviving anymore. So-Young: Well I think when you whenever the I think the moment you start to see that you're cash flow positive, that's a really awesome sign. So when you are cash Ben Bagg: Feels good. So-Young: flow positive, then you then like the pressure goes from like here and then it just like you're able to take a deep breath, right? so that's the first sign. And then when you're able to repay some of these loans and we have never been late, you know, we we were able to, you know, right, like pay back the loans that were that were coming and then we start to reduce our debt and we're still Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: managing. And then in the last, I would say, six months we've started to rehire the growth engine again. Because now our AI agent was ready. We still, we're still not done, but most of it's done. We did a soft Ben Bagg: Course. So-Young: launch, at Davos in January earlier this year. So with that, we're able to then start to grow again now that the product is ready, the cash flow is in order, now the fundamentals were in a more safe zone. Now let's start to hire Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: again. So we started about six months ago to then start rebuilding the marketing engine first. So we Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: haven't we still don't have sales actually, but we're building the marketing engine first and then as we rebuild that Ben Bagg: Okay. So-Young: then we're starting to see that growth. Ben Bagg: That's great. So you go more of a PLG strategy than whereas previously it was sales led. still still founder led sales. So-Young: It still sells lead. We're still sells lead. But no no no no no. We have a our close rate is really high. So what we really Ben Bagg: Okay. So-Young: needed is more SQLs, more demos. So we so so the biggest Ben Bagg: Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. So-Young: pain point is getting more qualified leads and demos. So once we're able to get the marketing team to give us more qualified demos, the entire team Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: Is able to close. So it me, Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: my colleagues like in the US, Asia, they don't even have to be very experienced in making close. The Ben Bagg: That's cause the product's that good. So-Young: product is excellent, right? The product works. We save companies money, we help them with their operational infrastructure, we increase accountability, reduce onboarding time, increase like time to sales. And for one of our clients, we help them achieve over a million in revenue. So our product works. So once we can get the the right ICP qualified customer to have a meeting with us, we can close. Ben Bagg: Hmm. So-Young: So until our our meet our calendars are just jam packed with meetings. Once that happens Ben Bagg: Right on me. So-Young: then I'll start to hire sales guys. But I don't even need super sales guys because they can like pretty much junior to senior we've proven that over the years our close rate has not fluctuated much in the last few years. Yeah. Ben Bagg: Just in some standard some standard A's when the calendar is too full. So-Young: Yes. Ben Bagg: obviously you've spent a large part of your life advising, receiving advice, coaching, being coached. we went through this kind of journey. Now when you're like seeking advice, how what do you what kind of what how do you go about deciding whose advice to take or who to reach out to? So-Young: Yeah, great question. So I try to take my own advice of what I advise other people to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and sometimes Ben Bagg: Yeah. Eat your own dog food, as they say. So-Young: they say that the the cobbler had, cobbler's kids have the worst shoes, right? Ben Bagg: Yeah yeah. So-Young: and which is, you know, often the case. So I say the first thing is really to align to your vision, go back to your vision, mission, and values. Why do you exist? Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: And I have to constantly remind myself that nobi stands for grow knowledge into being. How are we fundamentally helping people to be elevated and empowered so that it becomes part of their being so they could be the best that they can be? So which strategy will help us get there faster Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: and in a more impactful way? So that's going, that's number one. I think the second filter is always the customers. Customer is king. If you have no customers, if we had no customers, we would Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: have died a long time ago. So while I can have a great idea, my I always tell people like my team, my ideas are interesting. But if the customers Ben Bagg: Mm. So-Young: don't want it and the data doesn't support it, you can kill my idea anytime. Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: So it has to be something that solves a real problem for a customer. And it cannot be my interest and my opinion. And then the last yeah. And then the last Ben Bagg: Like that. So-Young: the last one is are you uniquely position to solve that problem. You know, is your set of experiences or strengths something that is unique to you? And if if if if everyone else can solve it and you're not the best person, then maybe that's not the problem you should be solving. So I try to do that and I and I think what am I really good at? What am I uniquely well positioned to do? And I will ask myself these questions and then I will adapt my strategy. So while B2C sounds sexy That is not my strength. I come from B2B. I've been a B2B most of my adult working life. And I like working with organizations. I like seeing organizations and governments and education systems be transformed. I did that at McKinsey. I do that at Awaken Group. So then to jump into Adobe and say, I'm gonna do B2C now, am I uniquely positioned to do that? Yeah, is it a good strategy? Sure, why not? Am I the best position to do it? For a different person, and maybe not. Ben Bagg: A different for a different person. Yeah, yeah. So-Young: So like many strategies can work. Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: So it's not about the strategy, it's about the combination, I think, of those things. Ben Bagg: I'm I I'm struggling with a little bit what you just said there actually because you know we've found the fuck-ups and what we're kind of doing. It's it's actually B2B, but it's B2C. Because it's like one founder, or maybe two founders, but like co-founders, but it's founders is the individual consumer, and I'm shit at it. I'm great when I'm getting into this stuff with them or having this conversation, like I love it, but it's that bit in the middle. Like I'm not the consumer guy, I'm like you, I'm the B2B guy. So-Young: Yeah. So then right then the conversation is then how do you take this thing that you've created to make it for B to B because that's what you're good at. And and that's the sweet spot of of of where we need to play. Everything sounds interesting, and there are tons and as founders we have tons of ideas, right? Ideas are Ben Bagg: yeah. So-Young: free. Ben Bagg: Never ending. I think I every every week I hear of a new idea or a new concept from one of the founders that I I work with. It's like half of my job is just to keep them focused. Whoa, whoa, whoa. So-Young: Okay. Ben Bagg: I like to think of them as like you know, like racing horses or or like you know, they have the blinders on. Let's just put the blinders on, like you can focus on the race. yeah. So-Young: We probably all have ADHD, right? Because we we see a problem here, we see a problem here, we see a problem here, and we can't help it. Ben Bagg: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So-Young: We're wired that way to solve problems. And so it's it's Ben Bagg: Exactly. So-Young: and I'm I'm exactly the same. So please don't don't interpret anything I say to say that I have figured this out and that I'm Ben Bagg: Yes. So-Young: now so focused. I'm sure I'm sure Ben Bagg: Ha ha ha ha. So-Young: my team would tell you otherwise, but Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: I am more focused today than I was before. Ben Bagg: Yeah, especially how you just you very clearly know your vision straight off the top of your head and like it obviously means a lot to you and then that can create the direction for you. And that's the whole point of a vision and I think people lose sight of that a lot. Sometimes a vision statement type thing becomes one of those little things that you do at the very beginning and then you just move on with your life So-Young: Yeah. Ben Bagg: and you forget you're and you're just in that rumble of we've got to get we've got to raise money or we've got to get more customers and they're not really thinking about the why enough. And I d I you know, I'm not like a Tony Robbins type person, although he's a very powerful speaker, and and all this Simon Sinek, know your why, but actually it's very, very important because I think being a founder it's hard, right? And you went through a ringer like we all do and big part of why you're still here, still fighting, is the why, right? So-Young: Yeah, well well I am maybe the the Asian female version of the Simon Synet 'cause I actually teach Ben Bagg: Yes. So-Young: and I train people on your why. And I've trained thousands of people Ben Bagg: Yeah. Yeah. So-Young: literally on helping them to discover their why. With founders, Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: with executives, with leaders, because it is the anchor. And my identity is not tied to my startup. My identity Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: is tied to my life purpose and my dream for myself and my vision. And that is such an important concept for founders, because when their vision gets tied to their startup, and 90% or more fail, then what does that say about you? Right? Ben Bagg: Yeah. And then they they get attached to a little spreadsheet which says what their MR is or what their cash flow looks like. Absolutely. So-Young: Exactly. And we are way more than that, You know, my my companies could succeed and they fail. Obviously I hope that they succeed. But it's not it doesn't define who I am. My purpose to humanize the world, which is my life purpose, which is very related to grow knowledge into being nobi, as well as awaken root, I will be okay and I'll do other things in order to help live out that vision 'cause it's my life vision. Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: And my companies just align around that. And and one of the reasons why we founded started Founders Coaching Pause was precisely to help founders to pause, reflect on what their personal vision was and their values. Because that's a foundation I think of every rate company. Ben Bagg: couldn't agree more. So young, thank you so much for coming on the pod and and sharing your story and yeah I think there's there's some nuggets in here for sure. So-Young: Yeah, thank you. This was super fun and I love what you're doing, Ben. I think it's more important for people to talk about their mistakes. Because we can all Ben Bagg: Yeah. So-Young: grow and we learn and it's real. It's true. It happens. Ben Bagg: Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much. So-Young: Thank you. Take care.