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Forgiveness vs. Reconciliation · Red Couch Theology

0:00
Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Red Couch
0:03
Theology podcast. Hey, this week we are actually
0:06
going to catch up with the last series that we went through on
0:11
forgiveness and reconciliation because it was a heavy topic
0:15
that so many of you wrote in questions about.
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And we could just sense that there's pain under the surface
0:21
there. And man, this episode was
0:24
difficult. And we felt like in so many
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ways, we were walking on tender soil, on sacred ground, whatever
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you want to call it. And yeah, at the end, we
0:35
actually pray for all of us as we try and figure out how to
0:39
pursue reconciliation in some of the most difficult situations.
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We talked about parenting. We talked about wounds that
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parents have caused us. We've talked about how do you
0:49
reconcile with someone who doesn't even want to try and
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reconcile? So yeah, on that note, let's
0:57
dive in to this heavy subject. Comfortable theology.
1:04
Hello everyone. We're back with sound.
1:08
Hello. Well, Alex is still trying to
1:10
have no sound. Your voice would carry to a
1:15
microphone about 6 feet from you.
1:17
I would. Well, yeah, that's a very kind
1:21
way of saying I'm a loud enough. I actually think you were
1:24
actually on the sound on the podcast last week from vacation
1:27
while the rest of us were. I wasn't even in the building.
1:31
It was louder than they were. Which is why we didn't have
1:34
sound. Aaron can't take vacations.
1:37
No vacations for me, no rest for the wicked.
1:41
So last week we tried to talk about reconciliation.
1:46
Yeah. And we had no sound because of
1:49
my technological incompetence. You know what?
1:52
I'm actually going to take this hit.
1:54
You know why? Because I told you it's just
1:58
turn this gear on and turn that gear on.
2:00
And I was wrong. Well, yeah, but you were about
2:02
to play disc golf on vacation. Yeah, and I I, I cared so little
2:06
at that point, I was like, can I just get off the phone with you
2:12
on my vacation? Yeah, that was actually kind of
2:15
what you said. Yeah.
2:16
And then? Play disc golf.
2:18
Yep. See ya.
2:19
And then the guys I was, I actually randomly ended up
2:21
playing in a tournament. And then they're like, who is
2:24
that? And I was like, that was my
2:25
boss. They're like, that was your boss
2:27
you were talking to. No one talks to their boss like
2:30
that. I do, evidently.
2:33
I was like, yeah, I'm kind of spoiled.
2:35
Yeah. So yeah, but there was no sound
2:40
because I had saved my preset incorrectly which had it muted.
2:45
So which isn't a problem when you have all the accoutrements
2:48
that I have which is this laptop and a pre show thing and then a
2:53
little controller thing and. None of which I had.
2:56
Nope. How confident are you that there
2:58
is sound now? I'm 98% sure.
3:02
OK. Would you like me to check?
3:04
Yeah. I feel like I feel like today of
3:07
all days I would like to check. All right, let's see.
3:11
Oh, of course my audio source is coming.
3:15
Here we go. Testing 1-2.
3:18
We have sound there. We go, OK, now we can officially
3:21
start the podcast. Yeah, but we have officially
3:24
invested money in this podcast. That's incredible.
3:27
How many years have we been doing this now?
3:29
Don't we look magical? Do we look extra magical on this
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on the YouTube version? Right now.
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No, you don't. I actually look almost as tan as
3:38
you, but I actually did tan up quite a bit since we last
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talked. They're going to start
3:44
complaining that I'm on the show because I feel like maybe I'm
3:47
the nonsense bringer. You tried to dive straight into
3:49
reconciliation and I started, I like shot blocked you and
3:52
started talking about light fixtures.
3:55
We we totally just started straight up like last week, just
4:01
like the just go reconciliation. Reconciliation.
4:06
Well, I think I can start us back on the track of
4:08
reconciliation by saying I have decided that I forgive.
4:13
You do. You do, you do.
4:15
For calling me a Broncos fan and I as a lesson from that, I'm
4:19
going. I've decided to forgive you for
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not being a Broncos fan. Well, no, let let me say, let me
4:24
finish what I'm saying. I am going to try this hard.
4:26
This. Yeah, to root for the Broncos as
4:28
my second team. Really.
4:30
Yes, well that will make you a better.
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Pastor, I think so. I, I, I am going to, I, I was
4:37
going to say I promise not to make any jokes about the Broncos
4:39
this year. I promise not to make any jokes
4:44
until after halfway through the season where they proved me
4:47
right once again. Wow.
4:51
I didn't say how they just said I promise no jokes about the
4:56
Broncos until once the season starts, before the season
4:59
starts, like you know, but but but once it starts interesting.
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I'm gonna I'm gonna get on team team Bronco, team Broncos.
5:09
Go Burrows or Broncos. This is feeling.
5:14
No, I'm you know what? I'm actually serious.
5:16
I'm actually serious. Yeah, yeah, I'm excited.
5:19
Well, I I don't have an AFC team, it sounds.
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Like you do need to work and practice at this a little bit
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because it's new to me. You've, you've let Burrows out.
5:27
You've let prove me wrong out like like I'm going to be I'm
5:32
I'm a halfway Broncos fan and and you know what?
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It feels like you're a fair weather fan now that we're
5:37
looking like we're going to be a better team.
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It just took me a few years. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm passionate
5:44
about my alliance, but I don't have an AFC team.
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So as far as the AFC goes, go Broncos.
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Oh, that's what you guys say. All right, I will make a clip of
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Go Broncos and find its way into some sermon illustration near
6:00
you in the future. All right, we should talk about
6:03
reconciliation now that you and I are reconciled and the show is
6:06
lit better. It doesn't look better right now
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actually as I'm looking at it online, which is unfortunate.
6:15
Definitely. It's it's actually more camera
6:18
settings, but you know, I don't think now is the time to fix
6:22
that. Just change your little lights
6:23
up there. Yeah, you guys want me to?
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Should we go really orange? Watch this, folks.
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Now we're super orange. That doesn't look good though,
6:32
does it? And we can go.
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That doesn't look good. That certainly doesn't look
6:36
good. OK, that looks the best it can
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look. Yeah, which is what I had it at.
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It's actually just too high contrast, if I'm honest.
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Well, given that I can go here, this is Moody 10.
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Percent of people watch online. Yeah.
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Let's assume that everyone else is fine and we need to talk
6:54
about reconciliation. Reconciliation.
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So why are we talking about reconciliation?
6:58
This week you started a new series.
7:00
What's going on with that? Well, well, I did start a series
7:04
on John for which you weren't there.
7:08
I did talk about reconciliation, for which you were there.
7:11
And we haven't answered a lot of questions yet.
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So that's why we're talking about reconciliation.
7:17
Yes. Common knowledge questions that
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need answering. I, I, I think it's, it's a, it's
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a distinctly emotional subject when you feel like there's a
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relational, there's a relationship that's out of out
7:33
of sync, like you feel like there's something between you.
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I mean, that's, that's actually the language Jesus uses.
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If you remember that someone has something against you or you
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have something going on between you and the relationship and he
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doesn't specify, like the English makes it sound like the
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the person who is making the sacrifice that Jesus says like
7:55
leave your sacrifice at the altar and go back and reconcile
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makes it sound like they're the guilty party.
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They've done something to harm the other person and that person
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has something against them. The Greek language doesn't have
8:07
that kind of distinction. It could be either way.
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The the something against them that they have is like, oh man,
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they just never forgive. Or it doesn't matter how many
8:18
times they say I'm sorry, they never accept it.
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Like that could be something you have against someone.
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And so really, you could translate Jesus words into an
8:31
idiom that was something like, we're not on the same page right
8:38
now. Or you know what?
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We're taking a break from each other or yeah, yeah, yeah.
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There's this thing between us that kind of language would
8:49
would land smack on the nose of where Jesus is pushing it.
8:53
So you don't, you don't get to get out of it by saying, well,
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you know, I'm ready to reconcile when they're ready to apologize.
9:01
That might be part of it. But but Jesus seems to say we
9:03
should be as passionate about reconciliation.
9:06
Yeah. Now, now, I did say, and again,
9:09
don't want to get too far too quick.
9:11
I do think it takes two people to reconcile.
9:13
One person can't reconcile a relationship.
9:17
Yeah. But we'll push into that with
9:20
some of the questions. Yeah.
9:22
So I mean, you started hinting at the line of questioning that
9:26
came in. There's two questions.
9:29
There's, I think there was 3 questions.
9:32
You addressed all three of them last week in the show that
9:34
didn't air. So last week you.
9:37
Guys had a great conversation. Last week, last week, because we
9:39
had Dan. Dan and Jessica are actually
9:41
pushed back into asking them a little bit more about anger and
9:46
how they experience it. And without.
9:49
Overly speaking for them, it was really interesting.
9:51
Don't make it sound too interesting because it.
9:53
Was very interesting. Actually, it was a very good
9:55
conversation. Unfortunate.
9:57
Because they started to push into just some of like how they,
10:01
you know, experience anger primarily like saying it,
10:06
talking about like stuffing it down deep and just like just
10:10
assuming that will be fine. I talked about how, like, anger
10:13
comes out for me as a little bit more passive aggressive, which I
10:17
think I always think of as being better than aggressive.
10:21
Like surely, surely passive aggressive is better.
10:24
At least, you know, pacifist. Yeah, it's like, it's like
10:29
catching someone off guard with a left hook instead of seeing
10:33
the left hook coming. In, in my, in my research, as I
10:37
was preparing to talk about anger, I heard a sermon from one
10:40
pastor who said my secret is I don't get angry.
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I'm always angry, which I was like, that's brilliant.
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So, so I think like we, we, we cycle back through this
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conversation of, of anger and then forgiveness and what that's
11:01
looked like for us. But we did land like pretty
11:04
heavy on this idea that actually the beauty of those two things
11:09
is how you get to do them at home alone or in a worship
11:15
service a lot. Yeah, you can.
11:17
You can deal with your anger and forgive, and the offending party
11:22
doesn't even have to know about. It don't even have to know, it's
11:24
all. Between you and God and your
11:25
your own heart and soul and all that.
11:27
Yeah, yeah, which is very convenient.
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Yeah, also very difficult. Yeah, potentially, yeah.
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Reconciliation is the scariest topic because primarily because
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it demands that both parties interact with each other and
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depending on the nature of the offense.
11:45
Oh, that's really scary. So yeah, yeah, I do sense that
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this whole series really touched a a chord in a lot of people's
11:54
hearts. And that makes sense.
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Like I even said in the second week of the series, like every
11:59
single person deals with this. You, you don't, you don't get
12:03
out unless you're not human. You don't get out of like life
12:07
situations and relationships without having to deal with
12:12
being hurt by someone because just it's the nature of how
12:15
human existence is in the fallen world.
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So yeah, reconciliation is heavy.
12:21
A couple things that you already said that I'll reinforce and
12:25
then we maybe we can dive in these questions was it takes 2,
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all right, And that's complicated.
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And that's sort of the tension that two of the questions came
12:39
in with. So let me just dive into this
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first question. And I think it's a good
12:43
representation of of one of the other questions as well.
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It says this on Sunday, you said, and we're talking about
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two Sundays ago now. It takes two people for
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reconciliation basically that both parties have to want it.
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How do you go about reconciling with someone that refuses to see
13:01
the error in their ways, Someone who says that never happened or
13:07
you your perception is wrong when you have brought up the
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hurt and the incident from the past if it's a person like a
13:17
parent. So that was one way of phrasing
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it, and another way of phrasing it was what is a Christian to do
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when the family member who also is a Christian won't engage in
13:28
conversations towards reconciliation?
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How long do I actively pursue reconciliation?
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How does one stay open to reconciliation while also
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setting up healthy boundaries with unhealthy relationships?
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So they're nuanced, aren't they? Because there's some slight
13:46
distinctions in the question that maybe matter.
13:49
I don't know so so. Yeah, like draw that out.
13:51
Well, the first question seems like there is at least some
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dialogue about it. And if the when, when it says
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like a parent, if, if it is a parent example, I think, I think
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this is actually one of the tensions you see generationally
14:08
with parents from back a further generation.
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So adults now somewhere between 30 and 50.
14:16
And then you've got that like generation before when you see
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you hear conversations about reconciliation.
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I think it's surprising how many of them can sit in a place of
14:31
the child feeling, well, this was really impactful for me and
14:36
the parents sitting in a place of like, oh man, you just have
14:40
no clue how hard I worked or how much I did this.
14:43
And you know, like you focus on this thing and like, and you see
14:46
that quite often with parental, like with generational
14:51
conversations. So I think if you if you're in
14:54
that space, it's, it's not super unusual to have a parent that's
14:58
a little bit dismissive of what you went through as a child in
15:02
your experience and relationship with them.
15:06
And so which one of them is right?
15:08
Well, that's the thing. We don't know, do we?
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We don't know what happened. And so I, I, I think so one of
15:15
the things you're asking someone to do is, is recognizing this is
15:22
my viewpoint at it. So, so the question is with
15:25
reconciliation is, does it require people to see things the
15:30
same or does it require people to be able to say, I can accept
15:37
your point of view on that and having both, I don't want to use
15:44
the word spoken at truth because it's such a like a cliched
15:47
thing, but having both reflected on, on our sense of experience
15:52
of it. Which is why I think like when
15:55
you crafted this series and I don't know, I don't know to what
15:58
percentage you like. I felt like there was
16:03
intentionality with the building of the three weeks.
16:07
I don't know how. Again, I already showed my cards
16:10
last time we talked about this. How how good I thought the flow
16:14
was for subjects and how it was brilliant.
16:18
And I so that second week, the statement Jesus makes in the
16:22
cross, which is one of the most was probably eye most eye
16:27
opening to me. And I was the one who had to
16:29
study it. But I was like really
16:31
significant was this idea of they don't know what they're
16:35
doing. If both parties can get to the
16:40
place where I have no idea how much harm I've caused and they
16:44
have no idea how much harm they've caused.
16:49
And if both parties are doing that kind of forgiveness work,
16:52
what it does is it forces you to start to see past the wound and
16:57
into the wounder and past the, yeah, past some of that stuff.
17:07
So, and if you can start to see the humanity and the
17:11
circumstances around why they did what they did it, it doesn't
17:16
take away the pain. But what it does do is it
17:21
reminds you that the thing that they did to you was caused, at
17:27
least partially, by their finitude, their weakness, their
17:31
brokenness, their sin. And perhaps their exhaustion,
17:34
their mental tiredness, their overworked Nas there you, you
17:41
know, the nature of being a parent.
17:43
I mean, I mean, obviously we don't know, like sometimes
17:45
there's just egregious harm and, and people don't want to to to
17:49
own it and, and. But so yeah, I've got an
17:52
example. I've got an example from my
17:55
relationship with my mom that fits smack dab in this
17:58
situation. And that, you know, a while back
18:02
I was meeting with a counselor and they're like, so how was
18:04
your relationship with you? They're drilling with our, my
18:06
relationship with my parents. And I mean, generally speaking,
18:10
I, I speak super highly of my parents.
18:13
They did such an exceptional job and they just kept on drilling
18:17
there. I'm like, OK, fine.
18:18
Like, I'm going to try and find something negative.
18:20
And then I do have this. I did have this, like, momentary
18:24
memory where after the Rwanda genocide, we moved back and I
18:28
was in fifth grade. And in hindsight, I understand
18:34
way more. But what I could, I forgot how
18:38
to write my own name. I couldn't read and I remember
18:44
this scenario in the house we were living in.
18:46
We're doing homework at night. Oh and I couldn't stand the feel
18:50
of paper on my hands. And I remember sitting in the
18:57
United States, I'm in school and we're doing homework one evening
19:02
with my mom and she just is getting more and more flustered
19:06
with why I can't engage the material.
19:09
And she just yells at me and says, Aaron, I know you're not
19:12
stupid, so stop acting stupid. And I, so I had this memory that
19:20
surfaces of my mom associating me with the idea of being
19:25
stupid, right? And so that could be a painful
19:28
memory. And depending on how I received
19:30
that, I could live with that and it could wound me.
19:34
And that could be one of the scenarios where I go and I'm
19:37
like, mom, I need to reconcile, like we need to reconcile, you
19:40
harmed me, so on and so forth. Now back up a little bit further
19:43
and let me give you some more context.
19:45
Now that I'm older, my mom homeschooled me in Rwanda.
19:50
So you have a mom who's homeschooled the child, seen
19:53
them learn how to read, carries the weight of responsibility of
19:57
the educational success of her child, and then?
20:01
Gets to the United States and he's incapable of reading like
20:05
the the mom guilt must have been through the roof.
20:08
The shame, the mom guilt the like I failed my son but wait, I
20:13
didn't fail him like he used to know how to read.
20:15
Now the wild part is it had nothing to do with my mom
20:19
really. It had to do with trauma.
20:22
Like I, it was one of my trauma responses to the Rwanda genocide
20:26
was I just blocked out so much of my world and I forgot how to
20:31
read and how to write my name. And it came back really, really
20:35
quickly. But Can you imagine this stress
20:37
that must have put my mom under to see her kid floundering when
20:41
she was the primary teacher? And, and so like, OK, so which
20:46
one of us was wrong? Well, that's way too 1
20:50
dimensional to look at it. And so I can look back and say,
20:53
like, my mom did the best she could, but if I didn't have that
20:58
perspective, I could have this wound between her and I forever.
21:03
You, you know, I, I think one of the hard parts with, with just
21:09
how sticky kids memories are, is that kids tend to remember
21:14
things that parents forget. Like parents are in the cauldron
21:18
of multiple relationships with multiple kids sometimes and,
21:24
and, and, and as a kid, you don't actually understand that
21:27
dynamic. You're entirely parentally
21:30
focused. You have one set of parents,
21:33
maybe one parent, maybe 2 parents, but for the most part
21:35
in, in some of those linear families or, or some of those
21:40
more like normative families, you have that, that, that
21:43
singular relationship. And so things burn in your brain
21:48
pretty easily. I, I have this funny memory of
21:50
my mom getting us all out of the car when we were must have been
21:56
like, I'm guessing I was probably about 8 And so my
22:01
sister's probably about 3. And, and I think my younger
22:04
brother had been born as well. So I think he was a baby.
22:07
That's that's why I remember the story, because I remember my mom
22:10
going to open the door and my sister, who was again, like a
22:16
toddler, fell out of the car onto the, the, the, the, the,
22:21
the driveway like a stolen driveway.
22:24
And she landed straight on it. And I remember saying to my mum,
22:29
my fault and what it was actually is.
22:33
I'd heard my mum say this all the time, like something would
22:36
happen. Oh, my fault, like my fault.
22:38
And it sounded so grown up and cool, but I was like, I'm just
22:42
going to say my fault had nothing to do with me
22:45
whatsoever. You didn't push her any.
22:47
Didn't push her. I was just like there in the
22:49
car. I was like, oh, my fault.
22:50
Like sounded really cool and she went nuts at me.
22:54
Like just. Like, lit you up, yeah.
22:57
Pretty sure I got spanked for it.
22:59
Pretty sure. And, and then going to her and
23:01
being like, you know, like years later actually, and remembering
23:04
this story and like didn't have anything to do with it.
23:07
And just the heartache for her of, of like hearing this story
23:12
was profound. Now she was just a busy mom and,
23:16
and, and same as you, like my parents both pretty great in, in
23:20
so many ways, But but like the fact that I remembered that
23:23
story 20-30 years later now with humor, it just shows how sticky
23:28
memories are at that young age. So I think I, I really want to
23:32
differentiate with, with that first question as, as to like
23:36
when it's egregious, man, I, I wonder what stops someone who
23:43
has egregiously hurt their child owning that.
23:49
And, and you're like, you hear like words in, in a modern
23:51
world, like gaslighting. And then you also know that like
23:54
actually memory repression, especially when it comes from
23:57
your own trauma, is is a pretty common trait.
24:01
Yeah. And so to get back to this
24:05
question, OK, we gave one scenario for my family story,
24:10
one from yours. There's a lot of reasons why a
24:14
parent, for example, might try to recraft the scenario that
24:21
you've come to that like, mom or dad, you remember when you said
24:25
this to me? Like, I'm still in counseling
24:28
today because of that. And they're like, yeah.
24:31
Like, that wasn't a big deal when I when we grew up, my
24:33
parents said the same. Like they sweep it under the
24:35
rug. Oh man, that can be so painful
24:40
for a parent to not engage a wound, especially if it's
24:45
something that you that deeply wounded you that you're still
24:49
suffering from today. So this is so.
24:53
Yeah. How do we go about that?
24:54
How do you go about do you convincing them that it's
24:58
something that needs to not be swept under the rug?
25:01
So, so, and I'm going to tread carefully on this question
25:04
because this is some of this is like it's not prescription, it's
25:07
description. So if you're listening and you
25:09
ask this question, don't hold this as like this has to be
25:12
true. Part of the reason for the
25:15
structure we followed is I have this like just low key sense
25:20
that lots of followers of Jesus try to do reconciliation before
25:26
they've done forgiveness. So, so there's this sense of
25:30
like, well, I'm trying to reconcile, but, but actually
25:34
forgiveness on some level has some sense of letting, letting
25:37
the justice go. Like you're handing it off and
25:40
you're, you're let, let then, then I I just meet a lot of
25:43
people that are trying to do reconciliation with some deep
25:47
holding of. Like I am just.
25:50
I want to reconcile, but I need you to ask for, for, or I need
25:54
you to say sorry big enough before I forgive you.
25:59
And if we can reconcile, then I can forgive you.
26:04
Yeah. And, and I actually think
26:07
sometimes you just have to do some more work of forgiveness
26:14
personally, and get to a point where you actively want to let
26:18
it go again. I know the complexity of that.
26:20
That's why I'm trying to say it in a careful way.
26:23
But I do think forgiveness comes before reconciliation.
26:29
I think again like I think. You know, maybe there's a little
26:34
bit of some situations depending on the nature of the
26:36
relationship where can it kind of happens similar and
26:39
simultaneous. And, and, and that's why, like,
26:43
that's why we've tried to talk about this difference in how God
26:46
talks about forgiveness, this difference between like the
26:49
salvific sense of forgiveness, like the.
26:52
Like. The the the the reconciliation
26:55
moment where you. No.
26:56
Do you know the cross? Not everyone suddenly is
26:59
redeemed. Although some people might have
27:01
that theology, but but that that sense of like sense of like the
27:08
relationship is mended when the reconciliation happens between
27:12
God and a person, but his posture of forgiveness or
27:17
towards forgiveness is decided already God has chosen to to to
27:23
head towards forgiveness. And so, so if, if, if that's
27:27
still hard, I think that I think that requires for us when we're
27:34
in that place, we really need that person to do something for
27:38
us that demonstrates just how sorry they are, which I think
27:43
can be really hard. Does that make?
27:45
Sense Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I yeah, this question's so
27:53
difficult. And I think it would take some
27:56
wisdom from some, some wise counsel, wise mentor, a
28:01
counselor to drill a little bit deeper into the nature of it
28:06
because some of it might be exactly what you're saying.
28:09
Some of it actually might be a journey that the harmed person
28:15
goes on to actually get to a place of forgiveness and see the
28:19
back story of said parent and say, you know what, like like I
28:24
kind of was able to do in in that example where I suddenly
28:28
looked back and that that realization hit me very recently
28:31
where I was like, Oh my goodness.
28:33
Now that I see the tremendous weight of mom guilt that my wife
28:37
feels all the time for things that she didn't even do wrong
28:41
and how painful that is. I just started like putting
28:44
myself in my mom's shoes and I'm like, Oh my goodness, I
28:48
terrified my poor mom, my my poor mom's trauma.
28:51
Like I suddenly had this empathy and this all this stuff.
28:54
Well, so maybe that's some of what needs to happen in this
28:57
situation where you start to see the journey of the parent who's
29:01
young, struggling, working hard, not sleeping enough, whatever it
29:06
may be that caused the thing. And then maybe there's a moment
29:10
where you're like, you need to have a sit down with that parent
29:14
and say like, you know what? It's I need to talk about this.
29:20
And every time I brought it up, you've tried to sweep it under
29:24
the rug. And I see you now.
29:26
I understand that you're there's mistakes made, but I'm really
29:30
struggling with this. And if you and I really need to
29:35
engage this at a deeper level in order for me to process and move
29:38
to the next level, would you be willing to do that?
29:43
And I think having some wisdom and maybe even some guidance
29:48
from the Spirit of God himself to know how to approach a
29:51
conversation like that, that causes a parent who loves their
29:55
child to suddenly wake up. And that's a little bit more the
29:59
nature of this question. The other question has even more
30:02
teeth to it, maybe in the sense that the the person just won't
30:07
engage at all. Like is super dismissive, sort
30:11
of. Yeah, and, and, and I actually
30:12
don't know which one's harder. Like, I almost think someone
30:15
who's super dismissive, you almost have more permission to
30:18
say like, OK, when you're ready, if you're ever ready, I'd love
30:21
to have that conversation, but you actually can almost let that
30:24
go. But but for someone who wants
30:27
the relationship but can't acknowledge any culpability,
30:31
yeah. I think for me, like the
30:32
distinction between when it's egregious and you're like, no,
30:35
concretely, these are the things that you did to me versus more
30:40
subjectively and being being able to own your own, your own
30:48
being able to own the subjectiveness, if it's
30:50
subjective and come with some posture of and of course, I
30:53
could be wrong. Like these are my emotions.
30:55
But, but, but you know, my memories fallible, all those
30:59
sorts of things. I, I think when, when, when it's
31:03
subjective, we have to tread it a little bit more carefully in
31:08
terms of certainty about what was done to us because, because
31:12
we, again, our memories change all the time over the years.
31:17
So I think that takes the, the wisdom of the person who's,
31:22
who's involved in the situation. I, I, I think one of the things
31:27
that I've noticed, I don't know if you've noticed this, my
31:31
awareness of, of how challenging parenting is, especially as my
31:37
kids have got older. Like I learned loads of things
31:41
from my parents and then I concretely saw some things and
31:44
said, I don't want to do those things because those things were
31:47
hurtful for me or hard for me. And now I don't do those things.
31:51
But there's other situations where my kids are like, oh man,
31:54
like I don't love that. And you're like, but I'm trying
31:58
my best. I'm even learning actively from
32:01
my generation and how not to do things and.
32:04
I think I even shared on this show an illustration about how I
32:07
harm my daughter. And it's just like, yeah, even
32:10
with the best of intentions, you're going to screw it up.
32:13
It's like, oh man. So, so especially as you get, if
32:17
you're someone who's more emotionally aware, you'll start
32:20
to see the those things. And so obviously we don't know
32:24
where the person asking the question is in in their season
32:27
of life. So maybe just before we pivot to
32:31
this and to target this second question, I thought there was a
32:33
third, but I can't recall. But anyway, just before we pivot
32:39
to this last question, maybe we could address a slightly
32:43
different angle. Let's, let's say hypothetically,
32:47
someone listening to the show is apparent and they've had a
32:52
child. They, they, they know that they
32:55
tried their best and all this stuff.
32:57
And they've had one of their adult children come back to them
33:00
and say, you know what? I've been deeply wounded.
33:04
And you've had a tendency to try and sweep it and defend
33:08
yourself, sweep it under the rug, justify it, you name it.
33:18
And, and you're right, like, you know, that it was a pretty minor
33:23
thing and you literally bent over backwards when you were
33:26
parenting that child to try and provide for them.
33:30
And yet they can't see that because they're just so clouded
33:33
by the wound. What what what do we say to that
33:36
parent? So, so, so I, I think that part
33:47
of the decision to be a parent is knowing you're going to make
33:51
mistakes and that sometimes minor mistakes will stand out to
33:58
a child that may not have learnt yet how much they have to be
34:03
grateful for. And so that there might be part
34:07
of you that has to. And I think this is one of the
34:10
things that Jesus pushes on with his extreme stories of
34:14
reconciliation. He pushes on for his followers.
34:18
Like, how much do you want reconciliation?
34:21
Yeah. How much are you willing to,
34:23
like, surrender for the possibility of a restored
34:27
relationship? Because I think in that
34:29
situation especially, I'm going to make some assumptions.
34:32
I don't know like any specific. Yeah, we don't even know who
34:35
wrote this in because yeah. But but, but, but I could see in
34:41
that in the scenario I'm imagining, which is a kid who's
34:45
not yet had their own kids expressing this particular
34:51
moment that they find really egregious and a parent that's
34:54
like doesn't seem that bad you. Should like you're just too
34:58
sensitive. Yeah, yeah.
34:59
I mean, there's a whole bunch of other stuff that I messed up on
35:02
that you didn't even catch me. I was like as a parent, like I
35:05
just, you know. Or like compared to every other
35:07
one of my friends and how they parented I killed it.
35:10
And and actually like this is the cost of parenting.
35:13
Like I I actually think there's an invitation to lean into that
35:18
one particular thing and just say, yeah, like that that wasn't
35:22
me at my best. And I'm sorry.
35:25
And they and it wouldn't surprise me if years down with a
35:29
restored leaders down the road with a restored relationship and
35:32
potentially that kid going on to have their own kids that there
35:36
isn't some conversation that leads to oh man, mom, dad.
35:40
I had no idea. I had no idea.
35:41
Like I'm so sorry. Like like, you know, I, I, I
35:45
just think that's why Jesus almost defaults to going to
35:49
extremes if that's what you take from his.
35:53
I think that's the only thing you can really take from his two
35:55
examples go to extremes to find ways to reconcile even even when
36:00
blame is like up for grabs. He wants us to long for restored
36:06
relationships. So it seems like, and again,
36:11
push back on this, if this seems wrong, it, it seems like in
36:16
terms of like the who's right, who's wrong, he's comfortable
36:21
with us taking the loss for a restored relationship.
36:24
Yeah. Seem he seems like he's up for
36:29
like not now. Again, like I can, I can think
36:32
of a bunch of scenarios that I wouldn't want to say that to, So
36:36
I'm generalizing and I and I think that this freedom to say,
36:40
I'm not going to put you in a place where you're able to do
36:43
that kind of harm to me. Again, again, reconciliation can
36:47
mean that the relationship looks very different, you know, to the
36:52
extreme of they may live in a different state because of that.
36:56
They may live in a different house because of that.
36:59
They may live in a in jail because of that.
37:04
You may only talk on the phone because of that.
37:06
You may never mean. All those things may take.
37:09
Place and it still might be true reconciliation in the sense that
37:15
the issue has been dealt with, but there's still ramifications
37:19
for the the relationship going forward.
37:21
So when you think of like the, the, the, the most intertwined
37:25
relationship of marriage, like I think there's language around
37:28
that suggests, well, reconciliation is, is learning
37:32
to forgive and move on together. And I'm like, what will, yes, in
37:36
terms of like forgive and the some kind of relationship, you
37:41
acknowledge them as a human being, but not in the sense of
37:45
necessarily in the sense of you're now married again, like
37:50
you're trying to continue as a couple.
37:52
Like that may be dead and gone and it can still be
37:57
reconciliation. Reconciliation is simply
38:01
acknowledging that they are a human being that you can
38:06
communicate with and acknowledge in a relationship of some kind.
38:11
So. I think I, I tend to agree.
38:15
And I do think maybe just maybe. And again, I, I feel it, it does
38:23
feel like all these questions you have to, you're a little bit
38:25
treading on sacred ground because you're dealing with some
38:28
of the deepest wounds that humans feel.
38:30
And so we recognize that as our audiences listen to this, that
38:34
like, yeah, this is sacred place and tender places.
38:40
But if you're if you're that parent, I do think there's
38:43
generally A generational tendency for some, some of the
38:48
older generations, like our parents age, even our our age
38:55
did not deal with the emotional world.
38:59
And you already plugged emotionally healthy spirituality
39:02
on the show. But I think this is one of the
39:04
reasons why emotionally healthy spirituality class is so
39:08
significant is it helps train train people how to pay
39:13
attention to their own emotional world.
39:15
And why is that important to this conversation?
39:18
If someone's come to you and your and told you that you've
39:22
harmed them and your tendency is to to to play the justify game,
39:29
that's a unhelpful move almost always because it doesn't
39:37
acknowledge the emotion. Even if they're completely
39:39
wrong. They read the scenario.
39:42
You said I love you, but you did it in a tone of voice and they
39:46
heard I hate you. Like how can I say I'm sorry for
39:51
saying I love you? I'm not sorry for saying I love
39:54
you And that's how it might feel to you.
39:56
Like your child comes to you and says you, you're wounded by
39:58
that. That was one of the best things
40:01
I ever did for you, that I. Enrolled you in this fancy
40:05
school, but you but but I never saw you anymore.
40:08
Well, I just saw your performance and I enrolled you
40:10
that like I worked like a dog to afford that extra.
40:14
Special. School, I wanted the best for
40:16
you and like, so I'm not going to apologize for wanting the
40:19
best for you. Stop talking to me about it and
40:22
wait a minute. I think that justifying tendency
40:29
is, I think maybe a lack of emotional awareness of how
40:34
people can receive things that were meant for good from you and
40:39
received as evil by them. And I think it takes much deeper
40:44
emotional intelligence, counseling, you name it, to
40:48
start to understand why do you have this tendency to knee jerk
40:54
a response of defensiveness. Yes.
40:59
There's a there's a reason why you feel the need to lessen
41:02
their emotional pain because it makes you feel like a bad
41:05
parent. Or it it it makes all the work
41:10
you did on their behalf feel insignificant.
41:14
But then, but then like the flip side of that is so, so I've
41:18
talked about my relationship with my dad, who I love.
41:20
Like I'm an absolutely amazing guy.
41:24
He pushed and pushed on me. Like in terms of what do you
41:28
want to be like, work harder, do this, do that to the point that
41:33
I really struggled to re navigate my relationship with
41:38
God because of that. Like you know, you're, you're
41:41
when you're doing well, you're doing well.
41:44
Now. It took me another step of
41:47
maturity to say my relationship with God is not on my dad.
41:53
Like he's not responsible for how I perceive God because of
41:59
things he did. Like I can't make him own that.
42:02
Like what he he can, he can try his best.
42:04
And your dad was probably right. Given the brokenness of this
42:07
world and how it functions, you probably are way more successful
42:10
because he pushed you. Sure.
42:11
And and, and, and his own sense of like lost opportunity.
42:15
He's at least as smart as I am in a whole bunch of areas.
42:21
And, and felt like he just worked to, to give us what we
42:25
needed. So, so he moved the needle
42:29
emotionally for our family as well.
42:31
And his dad was way less emotional than him.
42:33
And so he nudged it along as best as he could and, and was
42:39
kind and, and loving in so many ways.
42:44
But because what I heard was work harder.
42:50
I'm I'm happier when you get good grades like that, that
42:54
that's like a huge win for me. I transferred that to my
42:58
relationship with God. But but again, like life can
43:02
teach you all sorts of things about God, like and, and, and,
43:07
and when you experience life at it's most broken, theoretically
43:10
that that can teach you about God.
43:13
But that's not where we're called to get our information
43:15
about God from. We're called to get our
43:18
information about God from a relationship with God.
43:22
Yeah, like, yeah. So I guess the reason I drill in
43:25
on that is partially because I am naturally wired to be the
43:32
parent in the scenario I've just painted with people.
43:36
When I hurt someone, my first knee jerk reaction is to try and
43:42
convince them that their pain is less than it is so that I don't
43:46
look as bad. And it's in the more recent
43:51
years where I've started to realize like they might have an
43:55
absolutely incorrect perception of my intentions.
43:59
I had good intentions, but the problem that I have that needs
44:05
to be dealt with hard stop like is the fact that why do I need
44:10
to lessen their pain? It's because I want to look
44:14
better. And so I'm currently in
44:17
counseling to try and deal with some some natural inclinations
44:23
that I have both with my wife and with my daughters to when
44:29
they're in, when they're just having a bad day, I try and make
44:34
convince them that they aren't. This is one of the things I'm
44:38
talking about with the counselor.
44:40
Why? Because I want everyone to be
44:41
happy and I can't be happy unless all my girls are happy.
44:45
I just want everyone to be happy.
44:47
And because in my world feels better if my girls are happy.
44:51
So the way I do that is not by adjusting me.
44:55
I try to adjust all of their emotions like they have a sad
44:57
day. It had nothing to do with me.
44:59
So and so was mean to me. Well, maybe they didn't mean it
45:01
that way. And, and you'll feel better if
45:03
you know that they didn't mean it that way, right?
45:05
Yeah. And rather than like, Oh my
45:09
goodness, I'm so sorry baby, and giving them a hug, Well, what
45:11
the heck? What kind of father is that?
45:13
So I'm like, so I just sat with my counselor.
45:16
I was like why do I do that? And and.
45:18
And you help me figure out what brokenness is in me that makes
45:23
me try to weaken the pain of my family members.
45:28
And I and I and I, I do the same thing.
45:31
And I know why I do it. It's not necessarily why you,
45:34
yeah, you do it, but it's what I try and do for myself.
45:39
Exactly. It's a great mechanism for me.
45:41
So but to put that on them. So I guess the suggestion for
45:45
that parent is maybe you need to go to counseling to figure out
45:51
why you need to weaken the child's pain that's approached
45:56
you to ask you to do like if you love them, it might be 90% on
46:00
them, but go ahead and deal with the 10%.
46:04
Yeah, go to the. Great lengths that you just
46:06
talked about in the like in the reconciliation sermon you
46:10
preached like walk multiple a week long, go to great lengths
46:15
even if it's just for the 10% if that helps. close the distance
46:19
between you and your child who's struggling.
46:21
Isn't it worth it? And, and, and that's, that's why
46:24
again, the forgiveness coming first things.
46:26
So to get to a point of being able to say they don't really
46:30
know what they're doing, despite all the evidence to the
46:32
contrary, that again, all the evidence to the contrary is that
46:37
the Roman soldiers knew exactly what they were doing.
46:41
And, and yet Jesus has this sense that they don't really
46:45
know. All the evidence is the Jewish
46:48
leaders knew exactly what they were doing.
46:50
And Jesus says they don't really know.
46:54
Like he can look into the depths of humanity and say that's
46:58
there's a lot of brokenness. Did you ever read The Shack?
47:02
No, but I've heard about it so many times.
47:03
It's like one of those things that's like, I feel almost the
47:06
same. It's, it's a, it's a book that
47:08
really like, unfortunately, like, I actually think like they
47:12
give really good reasons for why they depict God certain ways,
47:16
because they actually do depict God at times as a mother.
47:20
And, and you know, scripture talks about that God is like a
47:23
mother, at least in terms of his emotional care for us, but they
47:30
also also show God as a father as well.
47:35
But, but the language is you're not ready to see him as a father
47:38
yet. You need more tenderness than
47:40
that. And, and, and actually there's,
47:42
there's this scene where one of the characters who's been deeply
47:48
hurt and is struggling with forgiveness gets to see the, the
47:56
person that hurt him in eternity in this brief moment.
48:02
And, and this person is now free and joyful and sorry and deeply
48:09
desirous of a relationship with them.
48:12
And and he gets this window into like as as hard and brutal as
48:16
that man was, how he himself was tortured, hurt by his own
48:22
relationship with his father. And and so you start to see like
48:28
the way that generation upon generation upon generation
48:32
passes down stuff, you know, you know, either the same struggle
48:37
or the opposite struggle. You.
48:41
Know, you hear hear about stories about a parent who's
48:46
like, so tight on rules and merciless in their punishments?
48:52
Yeah. And then you find out that their
48:54
parent was an alcoholic. And did had no.
48:57
Rules and was the opposite and just yeah.
49:00
And you're like. All they really wanted as a kid
49:02
was to have boundaries. And so they provide over
49:05
aggressive boundaries. Yeah.
49:06
It's like, yeah. Then this is I I would love like
49:11
even our conversation last time we talked about forgiveness
49:13
where we're like, is this the offending party?
49:15
Is that is that the offending party?
49:17
Let's be honest, 90% of the time in a relationship when there's
49:22
been a harm, usually there's been harm on both sides to some
49:27
extent. Like even in the scenario we
49:30
just described, it's hurtful to have a child tell you you're a
49:37
bad parent. That hurts.
49:39
Is that a wound that needs to be forgiven?
49:42
That your child would wound you by cause calling you a bad
49:46
parent. Deep psychological damage when
49:50
that happens. I don't know, maybe like it's so
49:53
it gets so hard and convoluted, which is why reconciliation is
49:58
so painful in the last few minutes.
50:01
I think the subtlety in the second question would be worth
50:05
addressing. I hope you did.
50:07
It keeps disappearing as I as we have I.
50:12
Feel like I had them somewhere. It's right here.
50:17
What is a Christian to do when a family member who also is a
50:20
Christian won't engage in a conversation towards
50:24
reconciliation? They just won't even engage it.
50:26
How long do I actively pursue reconciliation?
50:30
How does one stay open to reconciliation while also
50:34
setting up healthy boundaries in an unhealthy relationship?
50:41
Good luck with that, no? Read the last part again.
50:47
So how do you remain open to reconciliation while also
50:53
building healthy boundaries for an unhealthy relationship?
51:00
So I think you can, I think you can feel free at that point to
51:09
control like the when and where do you have conversations about
51:16
that? Is the like, is it defined by
51:20
certain like mediums is that we only talk about that in person.
51:25
We don't talk about it on the phone.
51:26
We only talk about it when we specifically get together to
51:30
talk for that purpose. Like is there a way for you to
51:33
continue to be in some kind of civil relationship and long for
51:38
more? I think that's the only answer I
51:42
can, I can really see. I think you've just got to, to
51:45
give some sense of like, no, I'm, I'm not going to talk about
51:48
this at this point and this point and this point because
51:51
otherwise I think it bleeds into everything.
51:54
I don't know if I'm hearing the question right, but but I think
51:57
somewhere like to me that that's probably how I would approach it
52:02
now. I think, I think the hard part
52:06
is that if you feel something very deeply that the other
52:14
person clearly doesn't feel, it's going to affect your
52:16
relationship with them constantly.
52:20
And I think very few people are able to emotionally, emotionally
52:24
differentiate to the degree that they can say, yeah, I'm just
52:28
going to, I'm just going to let it go until I talk about it at
52:32
some point in the future. But I think you how you go about
52:39
pretending things are normal at certain occasions for the sake
52:43
of relationship and sake of why to family and it just feels hard
52:48
so so I don't even know that I even really have a good answer.
52:52
Yeah, I I tend to agree. It's super, super convoluted and
52:57
which is why I think so many. So I think there the interesting
53:02
thing about this question is they said, what is a Christian
53:06
supposed to do? I think if if you're hoping that
53:14
Alex and I have a Bible verse that would clear this up for
53:19
you. Practically speaking, like OK,
53:25
this many times you reach out this many times, like Jesus's
53:30
statement about how often do you pursue forgiveness 70 * 7 is is
53:33
a joke. Just keep on pursuing and even
53:36
that feels difficult. I think that the corporate of
53:39
Scripture, the entire mode of Scripture, would maybe hint that
53:42
the answer is ask God in a living dialogue, dialoguing
53:49
relationship, a prayerful conversational relationship with
53:53
your Savior. The Christian component of this
53:58
question is, is there a moral or biblical mandate to try this
54:05
hard and then stop trying? The answer is, I don't know, but
54:10
the Scriptures don't deal with every circumstance.
54:13
Instead, the Scriptures promise a living conversational
54:19
relationship with the living God that would allow you to say,
54:24
Jesus, do I need like between you and I?
54:26
Are you and I good? I reached out this many times
54:30
I've tried to engage, are we OK? And if Jesus says yes, and then
54:37
occasionally the emotions rise in you and you say, are we still
54:40
good? Is there anything else you'd
54:41
like me to do? And then there may be a day
54:45
where the Spirit says, you know what, You're ready now to pursue
54:48
it again. And it was fine for you to, to,
54:52
to put up big barriers between you and so and this family
54:56
member. And now I think you're mature
54:58
enough and you're, you know them enough and you know their
55:01
circumstance, whatever it may be, I'm now going to nudge you
55:04
and say, today's the day where I want you to try and pursue
55:07
reconciliation again. There's no Bible verse about
55:10
that, but I do think the scriptures hint that there's can
55:14
be of living relationship with God that would to offer you the
55:18
resources to know when and how and why.
55:20
Yeah, And, and I think, I think I, I love that.
55:23
I think the danger of Jesus stories is that we take them as
55:29
laws to follow. Yeah.
55:31
So we hear like you have to do this, you have to constantly be
55:39
seeking relationship. You're never in church because
55:42
you're always leaving your offering there, because you're
55:43
always going back to try and reconcile this relation they.
55:46
Never said I forgive you those words, so I'll never go back to
55:49
church again. Poor pig is just getting older
55:52
of the offering. Rotting.
55:55
And so I think that what Jesus seems to be saying again, is
56:01
long for reconciliation, go to extreme levels to to pursue it.
56:08
But ultimately, like surprisingly, maybe things
56:12
happen when he's ready for them to happen.
56:16
I'm going to share a story that someone shared with me about
56:21
their story about reconciliation.
56:23
And, and I'm not going to use any names, but just tell the
56:25
story. And and it was a gentleman that
56:28
shared it with me and he was telling me about how he was in a
56:34
relationship to the point of engaged and was then called up
56:40
into the army and went out on a tour of duty.
56:46
And while he was there, he he wrote a dear John letter or
56:52
however you turn that other way around, maybe dear Jane letter
56:55
to the woman he was engaged to. And so he, you know, he kind of
57:01
separated and then met someone else, was married for for 28
57:08
years, had kids, and then that relationship ended 20 years
57:12
later, that marriage ended. And he would, I think, own some
57:15
of the blame for that, that he would say that there was
57:18
something he did and then moved back to his home state to try
57:24
and salvage like his life through some old friendships and
57:28
some people that would care for him.
57:31
Called one specific friend and said, like, I'm coming back into
57:33
town, I'm going to need you. And and then walked into a
57:39
church service and ran into the woman that he'd been engaged to,
57:44
engaged to all those years and started to rebuild that
57:50
relationship. As hard as that was for her, I
57:55
think he told me in the story that, you know, he said to her,
57:59
it's good to see you. And she said to him, it's good
58:04
to see you. And she later said, that's
58:06
probably the only time in my life I've lied.
58:10
And, and then feeling this distinct sense of God saying you
58:15
need to call her. You need to call her not just to
58:18
talk to her, but you need to call her to apologize, to seek
58:21
reconciliation and forgiveness. And he kind of tried to push
58:26
that away and said, God, like, why does it matter?
58:28
It's so old. It's 20 something years old, 30
58:32
years old, like why do I need to apologize?
58:34
We're. Already building, rebuilding the
58:36
relationship. Like why?
58:37
Why open an old wound? Yeah.
58:39
Oh, that's a great language. Why open an old wound?
58:41
Yeah. And, and he said that God said
58:44
to him, it matters to me. And so when he called, he
58:48
expected her to say, oh, I don't even know why you're bringing it
58:52
up like it's old stuff. And she said, I forgive you.
58:59
It still matters, but I forgive you or something like that along
59:03
those lines. It was still a deep narrative
59:05
for her and his phone call sparked reconciliation.
59:12
If you read Jesus story, you'd say that's a story that should
59:16
have happened 28 years ago and yet actually in God's perfect
59:22
timing, they're now married have been for a couple of decades
59:27
now. The story is restored in a very
59:31
different way than it would have looked originally and God was at
59:35
work in a specific time in both of their lives.
59:41
So I think if we limit, like if we turn Jesus example of go to
59:46
extreme lengths for forgiveness into a force this through now,
59:54
even when the other person's not ready, we maybe miss out and
59:59
maybe give up on the reconciliation story.
1:00:03
I think what Jesus asks of us when we're hurt and the other
1:00:07
person can't admit that, can't see that is to have the courage
1:00:12
to stay close enough that reconciliation could happen at
1:00:15
the right time, because that's the sort of thing that he does.
1:00:19
And I think that that that's that's the hardest part is that
1:00:22
reconciliation stories aren't fair stories.
1:00:26
But when we plan and hope for reconciliation and when we see
1:00:31
it happen, we plan and hope for the same things that God hopes
1:00:34
for. And and isn't that what living
1:00:40
in the way of Jesus looks like? It's not about fairness.
1:00:44
It's a grace story. And so I think when you when you
1:00:47
feel like this isn't fair, it's maybe actually good to know.
1:00:52
Yeah, that's kind of the point. There's not a flaw that that's
1:00:57
the system. Like it's, it's an unfair thing.
1:01:01
And so having the courage to say to God, this is really hard.
1:01:08
I think what you might hear him say is something like, yeah, I
1:01:10
know it is really hard to offer reconciliation and and to have
1:01:15
to wait to see it, to see it accepted.
1:01:19
Yeah, yeah. And maybe that's the that's one
1:01:22
of the lessons of this episode is that as much as we really
1:01:27
want to know the hard boundaries for how hard and how do I try,
1:01:31
how long do I try? What boundaries can I put up and
1:01:35
still have it be called reconciliation?
1:01:37
Like I wish we could formulate eyes it for you cuz that just
1:01:41
gives a lot of peace to the mind.
1:01:44
But the lesson maybe is that walking with Jesus is a living
1:01:50
relationship. It's like your story you just
1:01:54
told, or the story you told about this, this conviction that
1:01:58
this guy felt from a living relationship with God, that that
1:02:03
caused him to reach out and ask for forgiveness in spite of his
1:02:08
intuition not to. That's how God tends to work and
1:02:12
deals with the actual issues of life.
1:02:15
And there's a situation where reconciliation happens
1:02:19
hypothetical you like let's say a parent beat you as a child and
1:02:24
you reconcile with them and you may never, ever allow your
1:02:30
children to be with them. Sure.
1:02:32
Yeah, that's still a reconciliation.
1:02:35
Like it they're still, it's not like reconciliation is this
1:02:39
never happened. No, it's, it's more complicated
1:02:43
with than that. And I think the only anytime you
1:02:45
get into one of those spaces, if it's more complicated, it has to
1:02:48
be guided by a living God and the Spirit of God to give you
1:02:52
the wisdom beyond the text. And if you need a passage and a
1:02:57
verse to to cite, sorry, it it doesn't have your name and your
1:03:02
parents name and that person that wounds you named in the
1:03:05
text and the exact scenario and they yeah, it just doesn't have
1:03:09
that level of detail, but it does offer a living
1:03:11
relationship. I think one of the the the the
1:03:14
the things I might point to you rather than text is just the
1:03:17
whole narrative of scripture. Like if you were to read Jesus
1:03:21
story as you got to reconcile things immediately in every
1:03:25
circumstance. Well God plans a good 2000 years
1:03:29
for reconciliation, maybe even longer.
1:03:32
But reconciliation for him is a slow burn process.
1:03:35
Yeah, and he and he tries like multiple different tactics
1:03:41
throughout history, you know, almost to try and draw them in
1:03:44
and. So, so I think, I think I, I
1:03:47
think I actually maybe at the end what, what we'll do is we'll
1:03:50
just for anyone who's listening, who's longing for
1:03:52
reconciliation, but getting pushed back, getting gas lit or
1:03:59
whatever terms we might use for that now feeling like it's
1:04:04
unfair, I think let's just maybe just just have a moment of
1:04:08
prayer. Yeah, for them.
1:04:10
Absolutely. Jesus, as we kind of finish
1:04:13
these thoughts, you are a reconciling God who goes to
1:04:19
extreme distances to mend relationships, and you ask us to
1:04:23
have the courage to do the same, not because it's fair, but
1:04:28
because what can result from it is just wonderfully good.
1:04:34
Yeah. And so for all of our friends
1:04:36
that are wrestling through this, who, whose hearts are hurting, I
1:04:43
pray your special grace and favor on them.
1:04:47
Now, if anything that we've said is hurtful, God, I, I, I just
1:04:54
pray for grace there too, that they might hear the spirit in
1:04:58
which it's wrestled through because there are no easy
1:05:01
answers here. I pray that you would give them
1:05:04
the courage to, to act like you were and that we would hear
1:05:08
reconciliation stories from it. Jesus.
1:05:10
Yes, Amen. Amen.
1:05:14
All right. Well, that was a.
1:05:16
That was a doozy of a series. I still don't know what that
1:05:19
means. Yeah.
1:05:22
All right. Bye everyone.
1:05:26
See you guys mate.