Latest / The XX Lab / The Dirty Little Secret of Female Friendship — What Science Actually Says | #9 Dr. Tania Reynolds

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The Dirty Little Secret of Female Friendship — What Science Actually Says | #9 Dr. Tania Reynolds · The XX Lab

• speaker-0: If she's gossiping to me, she's probably gossiping about me. speaker-1: understanding these different processes that sort of influence this unconscious calculus, which is really necessary. It speaker-0: That that might be kind of one of the reasons that we have to frame it this way is because other women it's easier for them to pick up on when you're being a malicious gossiper compared to if you're doing the bless her heart approach. speaker-1: Welcome to the XX Lab, where we explore the science and stories that matter to you. Doctor Tanya Reynolds, welcome to the XX Lab. speaker-0: Thank you, I'm excited to be here. speaker-1: I'm so excited to have you here because ⁓ I am a huge fan of your work and what thank you. Well, what I what I really love about your work is that you ask the questions that it's like all of us know that we're wondering about, but not a lot of people have the balls to ask the questions. And it's because studying women and studying friendship with women and studying competition with women is ⁓ it's it's tricky business. Yeah. I want to start with the paper, Our Grandmother's Legacy. And I want to start because I think it does a really nice job of laying the groundwork for why there might be some of the differences in friendship and competition that we see among women compared to men. And this paper actually starts out with ⁓ discussing Linda Tripp and Monica Lewinsky. And for those of you who don't remember, Monica Lewinsky was the White House intern. Who had a sexual relationship with Bill Clinton, who was the president at the time. And Linda was her confidante who secretly recorded their phone conversations. And then she shared the recordings with federal investigators. And all the while she was insisting that she was doing this out of patriotic concern. Right? Monica's final words to the grand jury were: I hate Linda Tripp. Why did you use this story to anchor that paper? speaker-0: I found this so fascinating, and it it goes to show that so what what Linda Tripp says is that you know she's doing her patriotic duty, she's concerned about like this like ⁓ male abuse of power. But what she did is she actually undermined her female friend. And so, or friend, you know, questionable whether they were friends. And so, what I think is really important about this is it highlights that. There's a distinction between our intentions and our outcome. And I think that this is really critical for understanding female relationships because what I've found is that so there's this really interesting pattern where if you ask women, you know, have you gossiped about other women or, you know, tried to destroy other women's reputations, they'll say no. ⁓ gosh, you know, I would never. But then if you ask them, has anyone destroyed your reputation or have other women gossiped about you? They'll say yes. And so there's this interesting asymmetry where we're better at detecting when other people have harmed our reputations than we are at when we have harmed other women's. And so I was really fascinated by this because I think that might be one critical mechanism by which we compete. Is by not having conscious awareness all the time that that's exactly what we're doing. ⁓ and so in one of my ⁓ studies that I did in grad school, actually was my dissertation, I was looking at how women share defamatory gossip. And what I found is that I call it the bless her heart effect. Basically, if you frame your gossip with concern, Other people view it as appropriate to disclose and they don't view it as gossip to the same degree. So if I were to tell you, like, ⁓ I'm just so worried about Becky, she's been sleeping around a lot and I just don't want her to get hurt. You've learned the same information about Becky compared to if I'm like, God, isn't Becky such a slut? She just keeps sleeping around and like, we'll see what happens to her. You know, I come across as mean, even though I have shared the exact same information about Becky. And so I think what that highlights is that. For women, one of the key ways that they competed was by avoiding harm and retaliation. So Ann Campbell has argued that basically because women were in charge of taking care of kids, what that meant is that they couldn't afford to jeopardize their own lives. So if women got hurt or injured or killed, that meant their child or their children were then at risk. And the data support this. Kids are much less likely to survive if they don't have a mother around because mothers were the primary caregivers. And so what that meant is like female competition needed to occur in a way that women stayed safe. And so this is why it takes the manifestation of like things like gossip or exclusion, because with these tactics, you can kind of deny perpetration. There are ways to conceal that you were doing anything intentionally. And so anything that you can do to like keep yourself extra safe, including making it seem even less intentional, is, you know, kind of advantageous for women. It was one way that they preserved their safety and kept themselves alive to take care of their babies. speaker-1: I saw a really wonderful talk by a researcher who's at ⁓ I think she's at the University of Texas at Dallas and and she was she does research on aggression. ⁓ and she looks at both boys and girls. ⁓ and one of the studies that she did, she gave everybody smartphones. So everybody in a high school got free smartphones. And then the deal was that she got all of the data. And what she found was that ⁓ women of course used this as an instrument for aggressing against one another, right? Where they would be talking negatively about their their friends, you know, in like a group chat that this friend was left out of. And ⁓ in that there was always an element of deniability. So the way that they would frame the things that they were talking about was like with a winky face, like you know, like a winky face emoji, like, you know, ⁓ Beth is such a whore. wink wink, you know, so that way if Beth sees the text, she can say, ⁓ you know, it's just kidding. You know, it's kidding. And similarly, like what you're saying is that, you know, you get, ⁓ and and my husband calls this the Southern Baptist prayer chain effect because apparently this also this bless your heart phenomenon is a very it's like the same thing that like tends to predominate in in these like ⁓ Southern Baptist prayer chains where it'll be like, you know, we just really need to worry about Mary. And her, you know, her daliences with all of these men, and you know, and and Jesus needs to save her. and and it's essentially a way that women will get together to to pray for each other. But essentially what they're doing is is sharing gossip about like people's money problems, their relationship problems, the problems that they have with their children, and ⁓ and that it's just essentially an opportunity for gossip. And And so do you think like to what extent do you think that this is conscious versus unconscious? Because I do think that, ⁓ in some cases, I mean, obviously, you know, if ⁓ if a girl is in a group chat with her friend and talking about how so and so is, you know, is like what a whore. ⁓ you know, winky face, ⁓ like to me that feels like it's probably conscious. Like like they're in and cause they're excluding this other person from the chat. Right. But in like in cases of the prayer chain, like I don't I don't know. Like is it always conscious? Is it like d do we know? 'Cause I guess we don't know. Like if our brain is keeping something unconscious, we don't know that. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing about taking an evolutionary approach is natural selection doesn't need us to know why we do things. So, like when we find rotting meat disgusting, we don't have to have the conscious awareness, like, ⁓ there's a greater risk of pathogens, therefore I should dislike this meat. We just feel grossed out. So natural selection will favor our having the advantageous behavior. regardless of what psychological motivation got us there. And so I think sometimes it is actually self-deceived. I think we do feel concern for our friends. And if we did, that would be the absolute best strategy because the more that we earnestly think it's true, no one else can call us out. We would be consistent. Whereas it's very hard to lie consciously. And I think that's why we pay actors so much is because we're bad at lying. Like if we were all good at it, we wouldn't need Professional actors. And so I think a lot of times it is earnest. Probably some women have figured out, like, ⁓ this is a strategy I could use and do it maliciously. But I think oftentimes it is earnest. And that's what makes it kind of more effective. Because then if someone were to question you, you could be like, no, like I really do care about Becky. I've done these things for Becky. I wouldn't have done that if I didn't care. And so the kind of dark side of it is that natural selection could favor. the mechanism of earnest concern be the route by which we undermine people's reputations. And so then we have to ask ourselves, I think if we want to hold ourselves accountable, am I helping Becky by sharing this information? And then I also think we we can be better able to recognize it in our friends too. If you have a friend that's constantly worried about everybody else, that's a, that should be a red flag in our minds. She's going to be worried at about me at some point. I used to think, I used to think it was like like I was somehow the exception. Like if I had female friends gossiping to me, it was just because we were really close. Not that they would ever do it about me. But I think I I I've switched ⁓ as I've studied this more and my rule of thumb is now if she's gossiping to me, she's probably gossiping about me. And so I now use people's just general gossip behavior, no matter how it's intended as a proxy for like how likely they would be to share information about me. speaker-1: And so like when you talk about female competition and a l a lot of the research that you have done seems to suggest that ⁓ a lot of this and conflict and and competition surrounds ⁓ men's attention and resources, essentially. Right. So like mate competition. Mm-hmm. And why do you think like, can you explain to listeners why this would be such a powerful evolutionary pressure? Like why is it that this would be ⁓ such a ⁓ a source of Competition between women. speaker-0: It's a good question because it d I don't think it rings true today where women have access to our own resources. But if we think about our female ancestors, so the data suggests, at least in hunter-gatherer societies, like women's gathering wasn't enough calories to support even themselves, let alone dependent children. So basically, and especially when women were pregnant, breastfeeding, all of this gets in the way of being able to get enough food for yourself and your family. And so Women were kind of to some degree reliant on support. And one critical source of support were their male partners. So they could have gotten help from their mothers, and data suggests that grandmothers do really help enhancing ⁓ kids' survival. But having a male romantic partner would have been critical for getting those necessary calories, especially while you're breastfeeding, taking care of kids, pregnant, can't even bend over properly. And so our our female ancestors were really vulnerable. They were also vulnerable to sexual violence, physical attack, they're smaller on average than men. And so having a male partner could have made the difference between your children starving or not. And so because of that reliance, because of that importance, what that meant is that like slight differences among women and who got access to the mates that were kind versus not, or generous versus not. Would have been really, really important. So say for example, that a a female ancestor, you know, said something negative about your reputation. Let's say that she said that you were really promiscuous and and maybe that's not true. And so if she said this and other men believed it, what that meant is you might have ended up with a worse mate. And that could have been a mate who was violent towards your kids or a mate who didn't go out and hunt or was just unsuccessful at hunting. And then you're Children were at greater risk of starvation. So, like these subtle differences among women could have meant the difference between survival or not of your children. And so I think it doesn't, it doesn't always make sense in a modern world because thankfully, in a modern world, women have access to their own resources. We have state intervention to help with access to food and and resources. But this was not the case throughout human history. So mating was a really big deal for our our female ancestors. And their ability to like protect and provide for their kids. speaker-1: And so in our current environment where we don't have to worry about those things in the in the way that we used to, where we don't have to be completely reliant on men ⁓ to get access to food and ⁓ shelter and protection, ⁓ do you think that that these processes have diminished at all? Or do you think that essentially that we've inherited these predispositions that lead us to ⁓ sort of be wary toward ⁓ especially women who may have some sort of an advantage relative to ourselves when it comes to mate attraction. ⁓ do you think that that that that that psychology is just still active today, ⁓ despite the fact that we ⁓ have access to our own resources and that we don't need to rely on men for these things? speaker-0: I think both are true. I think like if you look at the patterns of which which girls, which adolescent girls get bullied, they tend to fit this pattern of like girls who are attractive, if they're sexually active, or if they're new, like new to the school, they tend to be the ones that get bullied the most. ⁓ and I think that makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. Those would have been the mating rivals. And if it's a new girl joining your group, that could have, you know, destabilized all the established mateships. ⁓ and then there are also some data that like if you look at even just evaluation of like scholarship candidates, there's this pattern where f attractive female candidates aren't liked as much, especially by other women, particularly if those women are low in attractiveness themselves. Which makes sense that like evaluating this attractive woman would have been very distressing. It is for all of us. Like we see this on social media, and so Even though I think these patterns are less true today, if we want to understand the patterns that are there and why they're there, I I think the evolutionary lens makes a helps make sense of why we see these patterns. now I also think that there's I I've been noticing more of a tendency in in in modern populations where there seems to be a lot more allegiance towards women, like this ⁓ emphasis on like sisterhood and feminism. And so I think that's actually kind of interesting because throughout human history, our our female ancestors were in patrilocal conditions where they're like when they got married, they went and lived with their husbands and their husband's family. So that would have been really hard to figure out who can I trust. And ⁓ there's some data that that that ⁓ Jamie Palmer Hogg and I collected showing that women care a lot about whether other women are kind and loyal to them. And I think that makes sense from an evolutionary perspective that you'd want to look for female allies that you could really trust and who you who would support you, especially if you don't know these women. If you're living around your husband's group, you c you don't know, you know, these aren't your sisters, these aren't your cousins. ⁓ and so it's kind of interesting that now today there's such a focus on like feminism and supporting ⁓ other women. And I wonder if it's a manifestation of that, that like This tendency to signal to other women, I'm loyal to you, has been cranked up in a modern environment where now there's a lot of, you know, social support for each other. And so these patterns of competition might not make as much sense because we're seeing so much like, you know, go you, you're a girl boss, feminism, like this like female loyalty, which I think also makes sense of ⁓ in light of our our female ancestors' journey. speaker-1: But is it do you think that's real? And and the reason I ask whether we I you think that's real is because ⁓ I mean, there's a lot of research that shows that, ⁓ and and and you know this better than I do, that women s seem to be less ⁓ tolerant of women who are trying to ascend the status hierarchy or trying to improve their position in some way. Women don't like that, right? So there's there's been some research that shows that that men tend to be more, I guess we'll call it tolerant. of ⁓ of success than than women. And I actually, ⁓ interestingly enough, I did ⁓ I did this research when I was in graduate school ⁓ with David Buss. We looked at envy and ⁓ and we're looking at sex differences and envy. And ⁓ and women just experience more of it more than men. They experience it more frequently. ⁓ they report experiencing it more intensely. And ⁓ and and so do do you think that all of this like girl boss, you know, rallying together ⁓ supporting the team, do you think that that is real? Or do you think that that like that there's still this undercurrent of, you know, I would take the first opportunity to take out my, you know, take out the person who's at the top of the totem pole? Like, ⁓ or or or do you think that we've we've sort of moved past that? speaker-0: It it's a really good question. And you're totally right that like so there are data that like women ⁓ when they have disparities between them in like status and power, it tends to destabilize the cooperative relationship. And so like in line with your envy findings, it's very hard for women when there's a woman doing a lot better than you are. ⁓ and there's even some data that women also don't like it if there's another woman beneath them. So I I think there's this strong preference for equality, which I think makes sense if like our female ancestors were trying to form these cooperative relationships around women they weren't related to. One way they could have done that is just reciprocal altruism or mutualism. And it helps in those relationships to be of similar power and status. But in our modern world, you know, we have like clear asymmetries in power. Some women are a lot wealthier, ⁓ have more status. And so I think it's a really good question. I am very I can see it both ways. ⁓ I can see there being earnest loyalty if it's a signal to other women. I am a girl's girl, and and there are some ⁓ data Hannah Bradshaw has that women like girls who have more female friends. They don't like girls who have ⁓ only male friends. And I think part of the reason is because it's like, I can't trust you. You're not loyal. You might not be loyal. And so I think the support of girl bosses is like kind of signaling that to other women, like, don't worry, I'm a girls' girl. But I think to your point, the data suggests that women don't like asymmetries. And so, like, is it earnest support when faced with someone doing better? I don't know. And so I think that would be a case where it'd be really interesting to show. Are you actually helping her? And that again goes to this distinction between like intention and outcome. So I've kind of wondered about like if you go on online spaces, anytime a woman is complaining about her romantic relationship, the first line of response is leave him. And now, you know, it that feels like the supportive thing to do, but throughout human history, that would have actually been like devastating to like ⁓ break up your relationship, you'd be jeopardizing your children's lives. And so I mean, so too in a modern environment, like women have better financial outcomes when they're married. ⁓ they're doing really well on their own, but they do even better when they're married. And so like the thing that feels supportive, I'm not sure if the outcome is actually helping her. And so like if you say, girl, leave him, are you like tangibly benefiting her or not? And so it it's a I think it needs to be studied more because it's not clear that just because the intention is pro social, the outcome is actually helpful. speaker-1: Do you it's you you had mentioned something about the difference between ⁓ guys, girls and girls' girls. And yeah, and Hannah Brad Bradshaw, who's one of my former PhD students, ⁓ did some work on this. And and and one of the things that she found, as you noted, was that girls tend to like girls girls more than guys' girls. But then of course that asked the I I've always wondered about the question of self selection, right? Like could it be that guys' girls are friends with more guys because the girls exclude them. So is there some other quality about these women that makes them gravitate toward men? ⁓ and do you remember did did she do any data collection on that? speaker-0: I don't think so. I no. And and it's a fair question because it's possible that these women are excluded by other girls. ⁓ and there are some data, for example, to suggest that really attractive women tend to prefer actually gay men as friends. And part of the explanation is that like they can trust the gay men to give them honest mating of advice. Whereas if you ask women who are you most likely to deceive about mating opportunities in your environment, they were more likely To deceive attractive women. And so it does totally raise the question like, are these just women who have learned like, okay, I can't trust women? Or are they also women who violate female friendship norms in ways that like maybe they're just sick of playing that game and they don't even want to bother and other women don't like it? And so, like, yeah, the directionality there is hard, hard to know why they prefer male friends. speaker-1: Right so is is a female friendship norm don't be more attractive than me? There are some ways. speaker-0: There's some data that women don't like it. So they're like, okay, if their female friend has like all these great attributes, but they don't like it if they exceed them in attractiveness. ⁓ and they actually, I think it's April Blesky Ratchek, she has data that I that the less attractive female friend perceives more mating rivalry in the friendship. So ⁓ I think there are like preferences for symmetry in that domain. ⁓ and so it it might be really challenging for for highly attractive women to have female friends that are like earnestly happy for them. speaker-1: Yeah, I I I found it really interesting. One of your papers that I really loved, ⁓ which ⁓ I I have to read these quotes from because this was like so this resonated with me so much. So you have a a paper that finds that that women will withhold benefits and ⁓ and and inflict costs on people that they see as being mating rivals. Like so if they see a woman as being a mating rival, they'll inflict costs or withhold favors, right? So any opportunity to do something nice, they're just not gonna do it. And you found that this was true when a woman, like, say, let's let's call her Jane. Sh if Jane flirts with your boyfriend, then you're going to withhold benefits and all this. And I think we all understand that. Right. It's like if somebody's flirting with your boyfriend, then yes, you do not help them out in in in all of those things. But you found the same patterns if a woman was attractive or just like wore things that were sexy. And so, ⁓ so which which I found really fascinating because it's like it it's like essentially. Like a w a woman who who's wearing something sexy or who's attractive is committing the same transgression in the eyes of a woman as flirting with her boyfriend. And ⁓ and and I found that r so can you walk us through like exactly what you found and and and why you expected to find what you found? speaker-0: Yeah, so we were looking at like choices about which information to disclose. And so like this is a subtle choice that we all have. Like we can either withhold a positive statement about someone else or share it. And it can be a positive or negative statement. So we gave women, ⁓ we said, imagine this is Francesca, she just joined your social group, and you learn the following things about her. Half of those were positive, like Her IQ qualifies her as a genius, or she's traveled the world, she speaks four languages. Half of them were negative. things like she cheated on her last boyfriend, she sleeps around a lot, and she has ⁓ sexually transmitted infections. So these were all pre-tested to be reputation harming. ⁓ and so we would just present women with like one profile of ⁓ Francesca. And so in one condition, they would see a photo of someone who was like more attractive. Or less attractive. We used a bunch of different photos. And we found they were more likely to transmit reputation-harming information and withhold the reputation-enhancing information when she was more attractive compared to less. And then in another one of the studies, we manipulated just what she what she was wearing. So in one condition, she was wearing a very low-cut shirt, and in the other, she was wearing a more conservative shirt. It was the same girl. And we found they transmitted more negative information when she was ⁓ dressed more provocatively. And so what's interesting. speaker-1: ⁓ no, what I was gonna say is like I've always I've always found so fascinating the Halloween exception. ⁓ yes. Right. So I think that I think that women you know, because it's like there is so much ⁓ negativity that can accrue to women if they like wear something like really low cut or really sexy. And ⁓ but then on Halloween, right, we be it's like, ⁓ no, this isn't me. Like I'm not I'm not a slut, I'm just a slutty Easter rabbit. Like it's my costume. Yeah. Right. I'm just like I'm just the slutty Easter bunny. So ⁓ so it's not me. You're keeping money. Yeah. And so anyway, I I just think that's so funny because I think that it's like I it's like ⁓ I think that that women would probably show off more of their assets, so to speak, than they actually do. ⁓ it just in part as a way to deflect negativity from other women who are like, why are you showing that to everybody? speaker-0: Yeah, totally. And I I think it's Jamie Krem's someone has a study where they like asked women like which outfit you would choose based on like the sex ratio of who was gonna be there. And like when it was only women, women chose more conservative outfits compared to if it like a more mixed sex environment. And and you're totally right. I'd never thought about the Halloween exception. I don't know what that is, but it I maybe it's the costume, it's not who I am. Like you were saying, I I think that's so fascinating. But yeah, I mean, like these data would suggest that like women don't respond well if you wear the most provocative thing that you can. And so it might not be in your interest to kind of lean in that way, even if men like it. And so like this highlights kind of the tension that women and our female ancestors, you know, are going through where it's like, you want to compete to attract mates, especially for our female ancestors, where it was consequential. But at the same time, you also had to like. win over female friends. And so like doing that tactfully is actually very difficult to like follow all the norms where you're not stepping on anybody's toes. You're not too much of a threat. And so I think that this might also contribute to why you see certain patterns in women where there's a there are these data that like when women get together and they chat, they tend to do this pattern called co-rumination where they'll like they kind of rehash their problems. They talk about everything that's going wrong in their lives. all their setbacks that they're facing, and they're they're kind of re- they're analyzing it together. And the data suggests women don't have better outcomes if they do this. And so it's like, well, why why do this? And I think what they're doing is signaling to their female friend, I'm not a threat. And so it's kind of the opposite of wearing the slutty outfit. It's highlighting like, ⁓ like don't worry about me, you know, I'm just bumbling along here, you know, my life is going poorly. And so it kind of like Reduces the ire of what other women might feel towards you. speaker-1: Yeah, w the when what I was talking about earlier that I've that I forgot to even mention ⁓ in and read was at the beginning of this paper where you were talking about ⁓ about how women will penalize or withhold favors from women who flirt with their boyfriends or if they're attracted or they're dressed in ⁓ scantily, you know, sort of scantily clad things, you started this out with two you started the paper out with two quotes. That when I read them, it took me back to middle school because we've all been in this place and I just have to share them with listeners. And the first was, ⁓ and it's from ⁓ somebody named Hope, age 17. When I was in junior high, there was a new girl that a bunch of guys liked. Two girls in the grade went around with a petition they made and they had all the boys sign it that said, I will never go out with mega whore. And then the second one. was Brianna and Mackenzie gave Jenny a code name and started calling her Harriet the Harry Whore. Right. We are we can already guess that this is somebody who's attractive and that the boys think is attractive. Right. And they told everyone that Jenny was hooking up with the boys in the woods behind the soccer field. Brianna and Mackenzie also started a club called Hate Harriet the Whore Incorporated. Then they got every girl to join except for who two who didn't care. Right. And I think like when you read that, ⁓ if you are a female human who's been around on this earth for any period of time, you've either witnessed that or you've been victimized to that, or you were the person who was passing out the petition. And ⁓ and I think that, you know, it's so interesting to me how young this starts. Right. I think that we see a lot of this stuff starting even it I think it really starts at puberty, don't you? Like like as soon as girls start ⁓ really going and and trying to attract partners. And ⁓ and then, you know, and it's not taught, you know, like most like your mom didn't teach you this, ⁓ and my mom didn't teach me this. ⁓ and and it's like this this ⁓ unconscious monitoring of how the men in the environment are responding to the other girls around you, and then ⁓ almost like this attempt again to to prevent anyone from getting any more attention than what you might be able to get yourself. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: Yeah. And i i yeah, I just you know, I I I think that ⁓ yeah, it it it really was ⁓ that to me was very evocative. speaker-0: Yeah. And and that's why I love the work of Joyce Benenson because she studies these patterns in kids. And I think it it just highlights like how early these dynamics emerge. And you're totally right. Like no one sits us down and tells us these things. ⁓ like she she's found, for example, like if you have two same sex kids, so like two little girls, and you bring in a third, they will exclude the third. ⁓ whereas boys will incorporate the third boy. And so, like, just showing these differences and little kids, and it's not like anyone, you're right, like sits us down and says, Now as a girl, your your role is to find one female friend and exclude all the others. Like no one tells us this and we just do it automatically. And so I think like that's why taking for me, taking an evolutionary perspective makes sense because it's like Why does this emerge? What is the point? And then if we analyze like, well, our female ancestors had very different challenges that they were facing compared to our male ancestors, to me that helps make sense of these patterns, and that's why I like it so much. speaker-1: you think like because you you're right, and that's not something that we really ⁓ had had touched on, but it it girls do tend to ⁓ experience more, I would say, like friendship jealousy. ⁓ and I I know Jamie Crumbs has some work on that, ⁓ where it's that that tendency where, like you said, ⁓ if there's two boys and a third boy comes in the room, they'll everybody'll start playing together generally is the pattern. And that the girls they'll kind of band together and and and form this dyad where they are trying to exclude this other person. And ⁓ and you know, you see this in ⁓ childhood and you see this at PTA meetings and fundraisers as an adult. ⁓ and and so why do you think that women have this sort of ⁓ exclusionary tendency within their relationships? Like on the one hand, I can understand ⁓ competing for partners, right? Competing for mates. ⁓ but why is it that we want to be monogamous with our close friends? speaker-0: It's it's a good question. And and I think one reason is that our female ancestors needed to kind of find out who was going to be loyal to them. And I think that one risk, because we compete with information and gossip. What that meant is that if I tell you all of my secrets and then you form a relationship with somebody else, one way by which you might ingratiate yourself with that new person is to tell them all the dirt that you have on me. And that would have been really, really risky for our female ancestors because let's say that you were to disclose that I had cheated on my husband. And if my husband finds out, like the data suggests that could mean divorce or even death. And so, like it would have been a really big deal if our female friends were loyal to us. And so I think that's why we get so jealous because they have very damaging information on us that would have been costly throughout human history. Now, one you could ask, well, why do we share that information with our female friends? One reason that I think that we do that is because it signals devotion. So, and there are some data that women will get upset if. their female friends don't share personal information with them. And so I think this is kind of what we're doing. We're almost like exchanging like secrets as a way of signaling I'm not going to defect. I am loyal to you personally. And if we think about like so our female ancestors were probably around each other's kids. So we probably needed to know I can really trust this woman. And so cues of loyalty might have been really important. And so like on one hand we need to share our secrets with our female friends so they can trust us. But that also makes us incredibly vulnerable if they meet a new female friend because if they tell all of our secrets, that could be really harmful. Now I also think that it's possible that an because it's possible that we also like exclude as a way of ⁓ indirectly harming our rivals. So ⁓ if for example there's ⁓ a new girl that joins the group and none of us want to incorporate her. She's left to forage by herself. And so what that might mean is she doesn't know which ⁓ berries are safe to eat. She's left, you know, vulnerable to predators and or she's not gonna know if like we learn, ⁓ the enemy tribe is coming, no one might tell her. And so it kind of just leaves her very vulnerable if she doesn't, if she isn't integrated into the network. And so that also might be a way that we kind of compete very where we can hide our culpability because one thing that like What girls will do is if a girl is feeling excluded, they'll kind of gaslight her. So they'll be like, ⁓ I I mean, that wasn't my intention. I'm so sorry you felt that way. I wasn't trying to leave you out. And that's the thing, is you can't highlight true intentionality. So you can conceal the fact that you were a perpetrator, but she registers that she's been excluded. But there's no way of like clearly pointing to exclusion. It's like very ⁓ you ca you have plausible deniability. So I think it I think it functions for multiple like has multiple functions. speaker-1: Yeah, I've always ⁓ it it seems to me almost like there's more zero sum thinking, right, with women where it's like, ⁓ well, if you're friends with me, then you can't be friends with her because then you're gonna have less time for me. And if I need, you know, help or something, then I, you know, I'm not gonna be able to depend on you because you're gonna be with her. And it's almost like ⁓ it's almost like our mating psychology, like our monogamous, sort of focused, ⁓ I you need to invest all of your resources in me. kinda psychology is almost like bleeding over into the realm of friendship. ⁓ which yes, is really, really interesting and and yeah, and I and I don't understand like like it's it's one of those things where, you know, I catch myself doing that, right? Where if I have a friend who has a new friend where it feels very threatening and I'm like and I talk but you know, because knowing everything I know, I like have this conversation with myself where I'm like, why in the world are you feel you know, why are you feeling so threatened by this? Like this isn't, you know, you don't ⁓ you don't need she doesn't need to spend every minute with you. And and I I don't have every minute to spend with you know, with my with a friend anyway. And so I don't I I don't understand what my own problem is. speaker-0: I know. And it and it it but to your point, like it can be very painful to have a friendship breakup. And if you look at the data, like women have these friendship breakups more often. They find them very painful. And it's ⁓ they have them more often than men do. And and I think that can also be a benefit of like learning about these dynamics of female same-sex relationships, is they can help us preserve our friendships and like learn how to play the game right in a way that we don't lose those friends and can manage our own jealousy and be like, okay, here's why I feel it, but here's why I don't need to act on it. And, you know, and I think that like learning these insights can help us, you know, so for me I found it useful to I did one ⁓ study where we just looked at like what things would what transgressions bother women the most. ⁓ and those were things where they weren't signaling kindness. So if you said something mean or made a joke about a female friend They tend to not like that, at least compared to men about their same-sex friends. And then also not signaling loyalty. So exactly what you were saying, like hanging out with another friend more or not asking ⁓ enough questions about her personal life, forgetting her birthday, forgetting to be the one to reach out and text her. If she's always the one to text you first, women don't like that. And so by learning about these things, we can learn how to be better friends. Like, you know, we can Be like, okay, I gotta signal kindness and loyalty, and that is how I'll preserve my female friendships and not have to be as worried. speaker-1: Yeah, it's so interesting that you know, because you said that like like failing to show being nice and failing to show concern. ⁓ and it kind of gets back to what you were talking about with gossip, with the the gossiping strategy that is most ⁓ that is most beneficial or advantageous for a woman is to frame her, you know, sort of gossip as concern, which is both showing like I'm so worried about Amy, right? So sh it's showing like I'm so kind and thoughtful thinking about Amy. ⁓ and also, you know, derogating ⁓ this person, but and then also confiding in your friend about how you're worried about Amy. So it's like showing that you're both Amy's friend because you're so worried about her, and you're this person's friend because you're confiding in her about your deep rooted concern. And so one thing that we did that we didn't at that I didn't ask you about that that research that I I want to know about is whether that works. So, like if I tell people, like, you know, I'm so worried about Amy because she's having all of this un uncommitted sexual behavior and I'm afraid that she's gonna get a sexual sexually transmitted infection and, you know, ⁓ dear. ⁓ does that hurt her reputation or do people see right through that? And they're like, ⁓ no, you're worried about Amy because she's hot. speaker-0: It our data suggested that it worked. So it like it provided, at least relative to malicious gossip, it provided reputational benefits for the gossiper. And there were ⁓ our data suggested that it does harm the target's reputation. So even if it's framed with concern, we're still learning information about her. Now, I think compared to not saying anything at all, I I don't think it's it's better, ⁓ but you're also not hurting her reputation if you don't say anything at all. So it's like of the malicious competitive strategies, that one is the most effective. speaker-1: Right. And you said that people see the person who expresses concern more desirably than saying nothing? speaker-0: No, then saying something maliciously. speaker-1: I mali maliciously. Okay, so they might see you ⁓ more negatively than what they would see you if you didn't say anything at all. But they see you more positively than than if you're just like, ⁓ she's a big, you know, whatever it was, Hory McCor or whatever whatever that was that we that we said. so speaker-0: Yeah. And it and it did work the most on other women. And so that's kind of interesting. And it's that like women we saw the biggest disparity in like feelings towards the gossiper from female evaluators. And so like it suggests like it's kind of that might be why we're doing it is so other women aren't registering us as mean and women show a strong preference for kindness in their same sex friends. And so I think that like It that that might be kind of one of the reasons that we have to frame it this way is because other women it's easier for them to pick up on when you're being a malicious gossiper compared to if you're doing the bless her heart. speaker-1: Yeah. So another thing that you found in your research that I wanted to talk about is about ⁓ is about like things like sexual double standards. ⁓ and how usually the people who are the most primary reinforcers of sexual double standards, which for those of you listening who don't ⁓ know what that is, it's just this idea that, you know, we talk about how it's okay for men to have short-term, casual sexual relationships. And when women do the exact same thing, ⁓ we have names that we call them. Right. It's like the slut shaming and ⁓ and you know, all of that. ⁓ and and we also see this with ⁓ things like ⁓ labeling like gold digger. Right. That's also usually something that women say about other women and less something that men say about women. ⁓ and so like is is this true? Like are we the patriarchy? speaker-0: There are some data to suggest that yes, like that we that both men and women show it, but women show it to a stronger degree. So they did this they had this study where they looked at like it was some like economic study where you could you could punish someone financially and both men and women were ⁓ more punishing towards the sexually open woman. But women actually paid money to punish her. So they were like willing to incur a cost themselves to be able to punish her. ⁓ so that study found that. And then there was this, ⁓ I think it was in like the ⁓ like like one of the Scandinavian countries, they found this pattern where women were more bothered by a woman using her appearance to gain kind of opportunities compared to men didn't really care if a woman used her appearance to gain opportunities. And so It was actually other women who were upset by it. And so I I think that this makes sense from an evolutionary perspective because these were women's romantic rivals. And there are data, ⁓ Dave Schmidt has data that around the globe, the women that are most successful at stealing one another's partners are attractive and like kind of sexually open. Those are the women who are good at partner stealing. And so it makes sense that these would be the women that other women feel most threatened by. And that's exactly what you find. So if they're attractive or sexually open, ⁓ they tend to be the ones that get kind of victimized the most. And and they even, you know, they have studies in kids that like or like I guess they're retrospective studies that if you were sexually open, there's a greater likelihood in women that you were the one that was victimized by other women's indirect aggression. And so it's this same pattern, and so like. Yeah, when it comes to this double standard, it raises the question like who's actually perpetuating it. There are data that women are that men do it too, but the data suggests that women do it to an even stronger degree. And and so it would suggest that like part of the reason we aren't the, you know, uninhibited sexual beings might be we're afraid of what other women will think. speaker-1: Right. And and d do other women do this because they like ultimately it undermines their own strategy. So like if I'm somebody who wants a long term committed romantic partner, ⁓ do I do this because I don't want to lower the cost of sex? Because if everybody else is like willing to have sex without commitment, that of course is gonna make sex easier to come by and then men will be less willing to invest, presumably. And so is this all like ultimately does it come down to I will try to undermine your strategy if it interferes with my strategy. speaker-0: Yeah, so this is Roy Baumeister's argument that it's kind of like sexual gatekeeping that women are trying to keep the price of sex high. So like if and that might be why they why they would critique a woman who gives away sex more freely. I don't know about this because usually with things like that, they tend to be unstable because it's kind of a commons dilemma. So I might say everybody wait one ⁓ one month before having sex, but if I go have sex like a week early, then like I might benefit. And so those arrangements tend to be tough to like uphold. However, I think you could also explain that behavior from just an individual perspective. That like if a woman gives away sex freely, she might poach my mate, because the data suggests those are the effective mate poachers. But the second reason I think we might also do it is because it signals something about us. So if I'm like ⁓ God, I would never have sex after one month. Then what I'm kind of signaling is I am the type of person who waits longer. And so I think by derogating those women who give sex away more freely, what we're signaling is to men, or maybe also to other women, I wouldn't do that. And so it's like a way of saying, like, I'm more sexually chaste. And in a a modern world, this makes no no sense. Like, what who cares? But throughout human history, our male ancestors. They didn't know if any babies that they had were theirs. And so men had an incentive to kind of pay attention to cues in women. Like, is she the type of person who might cheat on me? Because then that means I could be raising another man's babies. And so, for at least for men's long-term mate preferences, they tend to prefer women who are more sexually restrained. And so I think that's why. Sexuality becomes such a big aspect of female gossip. That's why we would want to highlight, ⁓ she's sleeping around a lot. Because in ancestral con times, you know, highlighting that someone was promiscuous, men might not find that as appealing in a long-term partner because that would be putting them at risk of cuckoldry and raising somebody else's babies. speaker-1: Yeah, that's so interesting because I hadn't even thought about the fact that in addition to trying to change the behavior of women, which I've always thought of as ⁓ I've called it like strategic norm management. Like when you try to change people's beliefs about what the norms are in a way that will advantage you. ⁓ and ⁓ and and ⁓ yeah, so it in and you'll you see this with various things like like don't put too much effort into your appearance, ladies. And it's like, come on. You know, like like ⁓ yeah, no, I I I can see we can kind of see right through that. But I didn't really thought about the fact that in addition to that, that it's also signaling something about you, right? That I would never do that, right? So if I say that this is the wrong thing to do or I call this person a gold digger, that means that my intentions are pure and that I am chaste and likely to be ⁓ not only a faithful mate, but you can have me around your husband. And don't have to worry that I'm going to be doing anything like that either. Right. So it can be signaling both to the men and to the women, which I think is really interesting and in in in positive ways, I guess, that that are would seem to be very effective. ⁓ the is it effective? Do you know, like, is there research that that shows like does this change people's perceptions of the person who, for example, you know, call somebody a gold digger or call somebody, you know, like, ⁓ my gosh, like I can't believe that so and so had short term casual sex. Like Does that change do you know if that changes the perceptions of the gossiper or the the speaker-0: little bit of data that like i it was for that study where we gave women different pieces of information to share and the three pieces of negative information that we we could show was reputation harming was that they slept around a lot, cheated on their last boyfriend and had a sexually transmitted infection. And we found that it hurt their ⁓ people's perceptions of them as a friend, but also their desirability as a mate. And so ⁓ it would suggest it does work a little bit, you know, as society becomes more sexually permissive, I don't know if it would have the same effect. It probably really depends on like what cultural environment you're in. So like maybe if you're in the deep south, it would be hugely damaging in a way that if you're in like Manhattan in it wouldn't be. So it it probably depends on like which which environment you're in and what preferences of men and other women ⁓ you think you would be a kind of like shifting. speaker-1: Yeah, I thought did you happen to see ⁓ a couple of years ago when the Barbie movie came out? Did you see that? Uh-huh. ⁓ like I remember watching that. ⁓ and when I was reading through your papers preparing for today, ⁓ I I was thinking about that movie. And I was thinking about what frustrated me about the movie. ⁓ and there's a few things that frustrated me about the movie. But one of the things that frustrated me about the movie was this idea that it was like, you know, like essentially that men put women through all these hoops, right? And that women have to jump through all these hoops and life's impossible, and then there's that thing that speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. speaker-1: You know, America Ferreira had that soliloquy that they repeated a hundred times to make all the bad things go away. And ⁓ and it was all about these things that men expect and men and men and men. And ⁓ and and I don't think that's really fair, right? I think that it's men and women. And and ultimately, you know, when I was thinking about it, I was thinking that I think that part of the issue that women get into and the reason it's so hard to be female ⁓ sometimes is is that you know, it's really we are kind of in an impossible space just because men and women are both looking for different things. Mm-hmm. ⁓ like women want you to be this way and men want you to be that way. And we're kind of in this middle space where we're like, Well, you know, I and I 'cause the things that will make you attractive to men will oftentimes make you unattractive to women, like as a friend. And the things that will make you attractive as a female friend can make you unattractive to men as a mate. Mm-hmm. ⁓ just given that women seem to be so, you know, oftentimes competing in these areas that have to do with mate attraction. Mm-hmm. And so it like really puts us in an impossible position, I think. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, it's very challenging to like navigate both of those spaces because, you know, even though you might have been appealing if you were kind of a little more sexually assertive, other women really don't like that. and so I think that like there are and I think that like these pressures probably throughout human history have influenced why women show the tendencies that they do today. And if you look at like I I think that one way that women might have navigated both of these are by being super sweet, because you know, the data suggests men look for kindness in their in their romantic partners and care about it. Women look for kindness in their friends. So this might be why you see these patterns of like kindness in women. ⁓ if we had these preferences throughout human history. but yeah, I think there are cases. So there are cases where it would overlap. Those preferences would overlap, and you should expect women should have those traits. But then there are cases where there isn't overlap and there's tension there. and it might make sense of like, for example, like why you see certain patterns of you know female, female attractiveness. So even if you look at like the features in women, the at least the facial facial features in women that tend to be predictive of their attractiveness, are basically looking more neotinous. So looking more like children. And so there's a case where I think like the female and male preferences might have shifted even the way that women look, because for men, they had preferences for youth, because in women that's a proxy of their fertility. It's I hate this, but unfortunately, ⁓ our fertility declines as we get older. And so men had preferences for cues of youth and women's features. But then for women, maybe one way that you could kind of get away with being attractive is by looking more neotinous and innocent and childlike because that wouldn't be as like threatening because we have so many biases to care for children. So like that might be one route that you could be attractive. And so I I I I wonder if that also shaped our like physical features. speaker-1: Yeah, that's so interesting. Do you think like what is and and I think that we kind of circled around this issue because I I've I've talked about it myself, where ⁓ like breaking this cycle with women, right? Like like like in terms of what we do. I mean, I think that on the one hand, and I I would love your thoughts on this, like in so in in my case, you know, I'm I've been aware of your research, research by others the talking about the ⁓ the challenges that you get, the unique challenges that you get with women's friendship. And and and so knowing that, right, I am able to stop myself, especially when I'm having a knee jerk reaction where I'm feeling like like my friend is hanging out with somebody else and I'm and I just feel devastated by that. Yeah. Right. Or feeling a pang of ⁓ envy when one of my good friends ⁓ has this success that I would have wanted for myself and and like recognizing what that is and then, you know, also leaning into the other feeling that I feel at the same time, which is pride for her and and excitement and happiness. And so being able to recognize like one, you know, when I'm when I'm going into a a sort of the the bad place, you know, with female friendship where I'm like, ⁓ like I know what this is. And sort of like understanding like I've inherited this tendency, right? Because historically women had to be much more competitive for access to resources and access to mates. And I've inherited that brain. ⁓ but I've also inherited the like these amazing frontal lobes that are able to say down girl. You know, like stop, that's enough. And ⁓ and then lean into sort of the the better side of my nature. Mm-hmm. Right. And and so I think there's something in recognizing it. What what are some of the other things that we can do besides just recognizing and being able to kind of nod? I mean, I th throughout this, you know, you we've been talking about terrible things and I've been smiling and laughing, talking about these terrible things that women do, only because I recognize them so much from my own experiences and from myself. ⁓ and and And so w what else can we do besides just kind of nod at ourselves, you know, if we find ourselves falling into this pattern, ⁓ what what can we do to ⁓ ensure that we are a better friend and and that we're we're doing, you know, and and and that we're not being the patriarchy, right? And that we're allowing ⁓ women to be as they are and just allow them to be without trying to police or or min you know, sort of manage their behavior. speaker-0: Yeah, I think it's a really good question. And I think that it's I find that like knowledge is power. Like even knowing all of like the dark sides of women is gonna like allow us to, like you said, like check those tendencies in ourselves and hold ourselves accountable, but also have compassion for ourselves when we're feeling those feelings. I I think that we can use these in a productively. So For example, like I I think that the the jealousy and the envy is real. And if we don't acknowledge that, we might make decisions that make our that just aren't good for our well-being. So for example, like for me, I really cannot follow Instagram influencers that distress me. And like that is good for my well-being, is not to do that. I cannot manage that envy. So I don't even expose myself to that. When it's a female friend doing well. I try to actually like frame it in a competitive way. Like I am building my like girl gang and I want her on my team. And like, so taking kind of a coalitional approach to it helps me be more earnestly excited. Like we are our team is doing well. but I also like I realize this dynamic. I mean, the the data about like Like Joyce Benninson's stuff about how like girls like they do exclude and they break off into dyads. I am a little bit strategic about my female friends and I actually prefer dyadic relationships. I kind of don't love introducing my female friends to each other because I know there is a risk of like exclusion and it's not enjoyable. And so I try to actually have a series of dyadic friendships. ⁓ and if they do meet and they are interacting, I have to like really kind of channel What would I do in a mating context? And I think in a mating context, one way that you like handle jealousy is by like signaling your mate value by not getting desperate. And so like I really try to do that in my friendships too. Like if I have confidence in my friendship value, I'm not gonna get desperate or weird because that doesn't it'll backfire. People don't like that. And so I I try to do I try to do that. And then I think like when I I pay attention also to ⁓ when am I helding expectations for women that I wouldn't have held for men. And so I think one reality of like these female friendship preferences for like kindness and loyalty is I think we bring them into workplace settings. And so when I notice, like if I receive a female or an email from a female colleague where it's very terse, I'm like, ⁓ she hates me. But if I received that same email from a man, I wouldn't think anything of it. And so I'm like, okay, you know, like I can't I can't be upset. Like this isn't this isn't a sign she's like a bad BFF. Like I need to just like accept her for who she is is probably just, you know, she's a more assertive person. I need to be okay with that and like not take my asymmetric standards and hold them against her. speaker-1: That's that's funny. I ⁓ I actually wanted to talk about the workplace. Do you have a little bit more time for ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Okay, great. All right. So I actually wanted to talk to you about the workplace because ⁓ I one of the statistics that jumped out to me in some of the research that you were discussing is this idea that ⁓ women report greater workplace satisfaction when they have a male boss compared to a female boss. ⁓ and there's no differences in how satisfied men feel ⁓ based on the the sex of their boss. And this suggests that ⁓ women have a harder time working with and under a female supervisor. And ⁓ and this is something that ⁓ I I think is really interesting practically and ⁓ and and also like I run a research lab and I have for gosh, I guess since it's almost been 20 years now. And I've gone through different permutations of who's in my lab, ⁓ whether it's boys or girls, men or women. ⁓ and I I usu it's usually a lot of women. Currently it's 100% women. ⁓ and I've had a couple of other times when it was one hundred percent women or like ninety percent women, and then Jeff. Like everybody knows Jeff. Yes. ⁓ yeah, and so and and Jeff who had a bunch of sisters, so he fit in really well with the with the group. Yeah, but I, you know, I have always been ⁓ I've I've tried very hard to make sure that We always have good vibes in the lab because I d I don't want ⁓ some of the issues that can happen with ⁓ women competing against each other or them feeling like I'm not being as beneficial to them or helping them as much as I might be helping a male graduate student or or whatever. And ⁓ anyway, I I wanna know what does the research say? So besides the fact that ⁓ you know, women might be less satisfied with a female boss, like Why is that happening? ⁓ and and what and what's responsible for that? speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, it's a good question. And I I think this gets back to if women were in these patrolocal environments where they were around their f their husband's family and people that they weren't related to, they might have formed bonds through reciprocal altruism where they're exchanging benefits or just mutualism where their goals are aligned. And mathematical models show that if y there's a too but too big of an asymmetry, it's harder to sustain that cooperation. And I think we can like Kind of makes sense of this. I I use the extreme example of like, could a celebrity be best friends with someone who's homeless? And probably not. Probably they could have like a ⁓ interaction where one just gives the other money or the other one gives each other, gives the other one like moral points. But is it, do they really have shared goals? And the answer is no, like that probably not. And so I think. That extreme example highlights on a larger scale what might be happening with women when they're in the workplace and they have these differences in like status or power. So there are data that like when women are different levels of power, they're less likely to co-author articles together in in academia. And so that's kind of like one mini version of this. Same with like the upset over having a female boss. And so I think. One way to manage that might be to try to minimize the clear asymmetries in power. And you'll notice a lot of female bosses do do this where they like use very egalitarian language. We're a team, we're a family. You kind of actually lower your status, and you might even be say things that are really humble, like, ⁓ you know, what do I know? What do you guys think? So kind of minimizing the status disparity compared to saying things like, as your boss, this is what you need to do. Like You don't want to use that language because it's just highlighting that there is a disparity. So like bringing making it really equal, I think would be very important. And also if we use like the friendship data that suggests women care about these cues of kindness and loyalty, trying to communicate that to your female subordinates, I think would be really important. So like ⁓ demonstrating that you care about their personal lives, demonstrating that you ⁓ really value them. So like doing things to signal gratitude, you know, using the emojis that signal warmth. Like I I unfortunately, like I think that like the reality is we do need to do that a little bit more. Like I would love a world where we treated all our male and female colleagues equally, but I just don't think that we do that. So knowing if I you know if I were a female boss, I would use some of those strategies to like kind of alleviate those like status disparities. speaker-1: Yeah, one thing I've always also wondered about with this ⁓ is that, you know, so if you look at sort of the the typical workplace setup where you have like the older male boss, right, and then the female subordinate, ⁓ she kind of just by virtue of the fact that she's younger is going to be sort of this high value woman, right? And so I've always wondered also whether it's not so much that women get a worse off bet when they have a female boss. It's just that they don't have the They don't aren't able to reap the advantages that you might be able to get being a sort of high value woman with a male boss, right? Because you can't cash in those chips, right? Because your female boss, ⁓ if she's not interested in women, isn't going to just kind of take a shine to you, you know, because of the fact that you're a high value woman, which most female subordinates are just by virtue of the age discrepancy with ⁓ with an older man and then a younger woman. Yeah. And so I think that there's also some advantage that you get. And ⁓ you know, and and I'll be the first to ad admit that ⁓ I, you know, I've I've had female department chairs and male department chairs. and ⁓ and you know, with male department chairs, I always feel like I get a little extra bit of grace and I think it's just 'cause I'm a girl, you know, and ⁓ and that that works in my benefit and ⁓ I've never complained about it. It just never feels like horas you know, it never feels like there's anything inappropriate going on. I'm not flirting. There's not, you know, the this person isn't interested in me. But there's just because of that dynamic, I think you get a little extra wiggle room. I just think you get a little extra grace. And I don't know that and and we can't use that with our female superiors because that it's like they're not gonna give that to us. And again, not And and again, I don't think that this is because of anything untoward going on. I don't think of this anything conscious going on. You know, I don't ever have try to take advantage of this. I obviously I get my work done, I do my things. ⁓ I I don't need f a lot of famors. ⁓ and I and I don't I don't take advantage of it, right? I don't like, you know, hey, ⁓ you know, but I think there's something to that too. Yeah. Where it just might be an asymmetry in our experiences with the different types of bosses, and it has less to do with the female boss being ⁓ not you know, like forthcoming with rewards and benefits to their female employees, just that you don't get that little extra dose of grace and humor that you do with a male boss just because you're not somebody that they're attracted to. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's a really interesting point. And there's probably something to that. Like I notice anytime I need to like do a return or something at a store, like I hope I get the male cashier who's gonna be like okay with me. You know, like anytime you're inconveniencing someone, you're like, it'd be easier if it were a guy. ⁓ sometimes, you know. And so like I think I think you're right, and that's probably missed in those data. We don't have like a non-male or female control. So it'd be interesting to see like is it just women are getting like how much of it is they're getting benefits by having a male boss versus penalized by a female boss, you know? And so like we can't really run that control because there's always the other sex there. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, no, I yeah, that's always been kind of a working hypothesis of mine. But but do you think that there is something like do you think that there is you know, in at least some cases, do you think that there is sort of that like Queen Bee phenomenon, like where you'll have ⁓ female superiors where they'll actively work against some of their ⁓ female employees, ⁓ to try to undermine them? Is that is that common? speaker-0: data suggests that that that it does happen. I don't know how extreme ⁓ it it is but there are ⁓ some data where they found that senior or or or at least like faculty women so female faculty evaluated their female doctoral students as less committed to their careers than their male doctoral students whereas male faculty didn't show a gender bias and so like That's a case where there's an asymmetry in status and it's the sub like subordinate or excuse me, the ⁓ superior woman, the woman ⁓ who has higher power evaluating the like lower status woman as like less committed, you know. And so I think it's and the fact that men weren't showing that same bias suggests like it wasn't that they were actually acting differently. The the female versus male doctoral students, it was that it was this bias on on on the right due to the female faculty. And so I think we need more studies to see whether this is the case. And you kind of need to be motivated to look for it in order to find it. Right. And so I think that is one tough thing with this type of research is it's going to be you kind of have to know what to look for to find it. And you have to find somewhere that's willing to publish these data. And that that is not always the case. speaker-1: Yeah, I th I think that that's ⁓ I think that that's so I think that's so interesting. And I wonder whether any of that has to do with the fact that if you're a female boss, right, which I am one, ⁓ you are one, ⁓ that, you know, it's like we are aware of all of the trade-offs that women are making and like how women are responsible for what goes on at home and women are more responsible for what happens to their kids. And this is true regardless of, you know, whether we're married to a caveman or somebody who actually you know, chips in and does the things around the house and helps and so on. And ⁓ and whether just our awareness of the fact that women have are being torn in 8,000 different directions, whether or not that might ⁓ sort of implicitly bias us against other women, thinking that, ⁓ you know, if the chips all fall, you know, and and the kid is sick or, you know, the mother their mother in law needs help, she's the one who's gonna be doing it. Right, not the man. And so I also wonder whether there's like some sort of like whether we're implicitly penalizing women just because we are all so intimately familiar with the trade offs that we have to make ourselves. speaker-0: Yeah, I think that's a totally fair alternative interpretation because that is a reality, you know, or the data on like who's more likely to move for the other's career. So if we see like, ⁓ like she has a a partner she's really devoted to, we might be making some calculus of like, is she gonna have to move for their career? ⁓ or, you know, does she have these family obligations? So yeah, so that it could just be a reality that we're very sensitized to because we make those like Those trade offs ourselves. Yeah, I like that alternative view. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, it it's interesting. And again, you know, listeners, ⁓ this isn't like saying that this is okay and that this is the right thing to do. ⁓ and instead, I would argue that understanding these different processes that sort of influence this unconscious calculus, which ultimately can have us acting out against each other, is really necessary because it allows you to catch yourself. And if you find yourself like having that moment where you're like, you know. I don't think that Susie is that committed to this job. Ask yourself, like, if this was Sam instead of Susie, would I be feeling the same way? And most of us are smart enough ⁓ to be able to take two steps back and actually evaluate what, you know, we might do if the tables were turned and and we were dealing with somebody of a different gender than ourselves. And ⁓ and so I really think that understanding these things. ⁓ in addition to just helping us, you know, validate our own experiences, because I think so many of us have been in situations where we were on the wrong side of female female competition or, you know, feeling like we got jilted by a friend unfairly or having, you know, and some interactions in the workplace that we didn't feel good about, ⁓ and being able to to recognize like what some of the processes are that may have been responsible for that. Then also understand when we're on the business end of being mean. Or being unfair, being able to recognize what's happening, and then being able to have the the next level conversation with ourselves about like why am I feeling this way? Why did I do that? Why am I evaluating her that way? And then being able to actually change what we do to be more aligned with the person that we want to be, instead of the sort of, you know, lizard brain self that most of us like try to get away from as frequently as we can in life. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like question whether we're using, you know, asymmetric standards. speaker-1: Yeah yeah, yeah. So I wanna ⁓ I wanna circle back to something that I I've I've been thinking a lot about lately. And we talked a little, we touched on it a little, ⁓ but it's just, you know, it it and it gets at that that work I was telling you about that I did ⁓ when I was in graduate school looking at envy and just looking at ⁓ women's ⁓ aversions toward inequality. And you had suggested that, you know, perhaps this has something to do with the fact that you know, communal exchange has characterized so much of women's relationships with each other throughout evolutionary history that we would really be like most gravitating toward, you know, ⁓ people who are in a similar rank that as us and that we want to try to keep things evenly ⁓ you know, spread. ⁓ you know, I I wanna understand like, ⁓ like, well, one, one thing I was thinking about was, you know, we're seeing right now with men and women that there's this like, big divide politically where it seems like men seem to be getting more conservative and women seem to be getting more, ⁓ more liberal. And I was thinking about this with respect to this inaversion for inequality. And do you think that this could be potentially behind women's tendency to be more politically left leaning? Is that that they don't like this idea of inequality and that they're trying to level ⁓ like outcomes for everyone. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, I think that it's it's an excellent point. And I I think it probably is relevant. And I think that it also you might also see, for example, like I I think one huge aspect of like women's evolutionary history is that they were vulnerable in a lot of ways, like especially like needing those calories for themselves and for their children. ⁓ they were vulnerable to like sexual violence when they were smaller, they were vul vulnerable to being left by their husbands and like needing to support themselves. And so I think women's tendency to kind of emphasize giving to the vulnerable, I think also would make sense given those challenges throughout human history. Like you would pr want to promote a social world where we're compassionate to the vulnerable if you are often in a vulnerable position. And so you see this like where women tend to have stronger support for welfare policies, kind of aid to the vulnerable, protecting the vulnerable. And I so I think this is a big kind of source of a disparity between men and women as well. And we can make sense of like why that would be speaker-1: Yeah, I think that I've heard, and I think that it might have been ⁓ some of Christina Durante's work that you find that, especially with single women, and that oftentimes when wingo when women are partnered in long term relationships like married women, that they tend to become less that way. Right. Where they tend to become less communal and that they tend to be more ⁓ toward, you know, like, ⁓ well, no, it's actually okay if ⁓ if people have different outcomes, as long as my outcome, you know, now that I've got my outcome, you know, settled and I've got my resource beefed dumb. ⁓ now I'm you know, I'm n I'm okay with unequal outcomes, at least for me. speaker-0: Yeah, that's fascinating. It would be so fun to like study like what are these evolutionary sources of support for politics? Like you could make the argument, for example, and it would be really interesting to see, like, do the women who have the hardest time finding mates have the most generous views about welfare? Because if I don't think I'm gonna have this additional support. I would want a world where I could get that elsewhere, you know, or maybe the women who have had really terrible partners. I don't want to have to rely on men again. I would rather have a world where the government provides those benefits, you know. speaker-1: Yeah, it's really interesting because, you know, ⁓ Michael Bang Peterson did some work where he found that when people were hungry, like if they were fasted, that they tended to ⁓ endorse more sort of egalitarian beliefs about distribution of wealth ⁓ than compared to how they felt when they were sated and full. And ⁓ and and so I love that as sort of an extension of that and just sort of understanding you know, the source of some of the ⁓ the dynamics, I mean just thought dynamics that impact our ⁓ political beliefs and economic beliefs and and and so on. So I no I love that as a ⁓ I love that as a study. ⁓ and so what about like, you know, if you have a a high achieving woman, ⁓ you know, somebody who wants to do well for herself and and, you know, be a standout in some way. ⁓ you know, I I hear about this ⁓ from women a lot where they've had an exper like, ⁓ if they're like trying to establish a social media presence or they're trying to, you know, ⁓ get such and such award within the organization that they belong to, ⁓ that they feel like the evil eye coming at them from other women. Right. And that they're feeling like they're not getting support ⁓ for other women. And we talked about some of the dynamics ⁓ that, you know, evolutionarily why that may be a knee jerk impulse that some women get. ⁓ or ⁓ maybe most women or all women get when when they're seeing somebody like trying to essentially be the crab crawling out of the bucket, right? Where they're then they're trying to pull the crab back down the bucket and try to, you know, keep them from ⁓ becoming ⁓ you know, higher in status or or establishing some sort of a career or otherwise. ⁓ what do you recommend for women who have ambitions? ⁓ do they just have to give up on the idea of of female friendship or ⁓ am I am I being too am I casting too wide of a a net in characterizing ⁓ women as having a difficult time when they have female friends that are trying to do something bigger with their lives? Like what what are they what what do you think is the answer? What do you do? speaker-0: So the at least in ethnographies, what they find is that when girls are becoming super popular, the way that they can maintain their popularity is by being super nice. And so they have to almost like over-deliver on kindness in order to maintain their high status. ⁓ and then you also see this in the patterns of like negotiation. There's this interesting pattern where women don't want to be too assertive in a negotiation context because they're afraid of backlash, kind of like what you're saying is like if I act too competitively, people won't like me. The c there's a case where women can be more agentic and and assertive, and it's when they're advocating for someone else. And so I think this is why you'll see like celebrities when they're accepting their Oscar's speech, you know, say something about some like genocide in another country or why we need to care about like indigenous people. And it just feels like why are you bringing this up now? And so I think this is a a strategy that people use, women women use when they're gaining status is kind of signaling I am very compassionate in this by doing these other things. Like, ⁓ so I think that might be why people would need to say, like, you know, if I'm accepting an award, be like, this is for women everywhere who have struggled, right? Like bringing it down, making it seem like this is I'm like a I'm representative of all women's struggle. And so like I think an That would be the strategy that I would recommend for women who are actually being more agentic and and status driving is just use more egalitarian language, use more pro-social concern, use more like ⁓ humility. You know, I think it's also why people like humble brag or like they're not as they'll be like, ⁓ I just got so lucky. I don't know like I got lucky that they chose me for this award when it's like, no, like you you worked really hard. It's like denying their own efforts and their own accomplishments. And so unfortunately I think that is like the best strategy for minimizing that resentment. speaker-1: It's so funny because ⁓ I you were mentioning the the Oscars or whatever and I was thinking I was thinking about that too, but I w the thing I was thinking about was that they're always like, you know, thank you. Like I would not have been able to do this without this, this, that person, this person, that person. I was given this amazing script. There was great lighting. You know, I mean it's just like deflect, deflect, deflect, deflect, deflect, deflect, deflect. Yes. And ⁓ and and I think that women probably do that a lot more than men just because they're having to negotiate the the problem of being seen as trying. ⁓ which is, you know, something that ⁓ is is seen as socially ⁓ undesirable with women generally and and for men the b the mating related benefits of saying, No, it's just me, you know, I'm just good. Yeah. You know, good it Yeah, sorry, it's just I'm just good. Sorry, not sorry. And then women are like, ⁓ my gosh, like who's that guy? Like, what's he doing later? because we love that. It's like we love ⁓ we love a little bit of bravado in men and we don't like that so much in ⁓ in women. And ⁓ and so yeah, I was I was thinking about that strategy. So I think that's a I I like that. I like that. So just the idea that if you are going to try to be the crab crawling out of the bucket is ⁓ is just letting people know that you're doing it for a higher mission. Right. Essentially that you're you're making your way out of the bucket to do these ⁓ pro social ⁓ activities and yeah, and that that might sort of deflect some of that that envy. speaker-0: like very wealthy people how like they like always have like charity brunches and things like that which is like honestly it's good if you're gonna be wealthy like have it go to these causes but I wonder if they have to do that because otherwise you're just a wealthy person that people would be jealous of but if you're using your wealth for a charity bunch brunch you get to like signal this pro-sociality speaker-1: You know, was so funny. I was having this conversation with ⁓ Jamie Confer and Karen Perilou. And we were walking to somewhere, we were at a conference together and they were like, I love your shoes. And I was like, Yeah, thanks. Target, four ninety nine, you know. And ⁓ and then I was like, Why did I just say that to you? Yeah. And then and then I was thinking I'm like, L girls, I've got to talk to you. Like, I think that I said that to you because my book had just come out. And and like I was kind of all over the place. Uh-huh. And I think that I was essentially just like trying to say, like, I still buy my shoes at Target for $15. So I'm just, you know, I'm like We're all the same. Anyway, we yeah, we're all the same. Like there's nothing to see here. Uh-huh. Nothing to see here. And ⁓ and anyway, I thought about that. And then later I was thinking, you know, if it was, you know, the mean mom from the PTA who is, you know, always, you know, trying to make a big fuss about their status relative to everybody else's, which this is a hypothetical figure, by the way. I'm not a member of the PTA. So I'm not talking about any of you in the school district, just so you know. ⁓ but you know, if somebody that ⁓ that I feel is trying to make me feel small most of the time said, I like your shoes, I'd be like, thanks. You know, I I would I wouldn't say yeah, Target, 15 bucks. ⁓ and and again it was it was just really interesting to me as I was thinking through that how we speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. speaker-1: will ⁓ you know, either maintain the illusion of status, right? If we're trying to ⁓ ingratiate ourselves with people who are higher in status than ourselves. Again, trying to show I'm a crab in the bucket, you know, like put me in your bucket, like I belong in your bucket. ⁓ and then, you know, in the other case, again, like I'm not crawling out of the bucket, you know, these are my fifteen dollar shoes from Target. and and then, you know, as my way to try to maintain that friendship. ⁓ despite what might be seen as an attempt to crawl outside the bucket. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. I I I think it and they even like poke fun of it on in Mean Girls where they like give her a compliment and they're like, So you're saying you do think you look good or whatever it was. Like they like called her out for accepting the compliment. And so it was because she didn't do what you did, which was be like, ⁓ you know, these were like on clearance, we have to like undermine compliments. And I think that it is a way to to like maintain that That status with other women that we're not, don't worry, I'm not rising above. And I think the downside there, I think there's a dark, pernicious side to it is that when we spend time in female spaces, I think this might kind of contribute to why you see people in like online posting about like mental health issues. Like it's basically a way to be status driving without threatening, without being threatening. And so like. I I kind of worry about like what if you take this tendency to the extreme? And if I'm constantly posting, like like Billie Eilish, like like when she got famous, was talking about like how sad she was all the time. And it's like a way of getting status in the female world because you're not a threat. And so do those like incentive structures lead us to lean into our sadness or our our darkness because it's like Not registered as like overtly status driving or threatening to other women. speaker-1: interesting. So almost like we are miserable or like trying to give the appearance of being miserable as a way to deflect again, you know, the potential negative inferences that people might make of us if ⁓ if they think that we're doing too well. ⁓ Yeah that's I was gonna ask actually ask you about mental health and ⁓ and and so this was this is a really nice little ⁓ segue because ⁓ you know, given all of this, ⁓ in it you know, and women are doing very well, you know, like when you look at mental health and anxiety, ⁓ we're diagnosed at rates that are twice that of men. And and I was I was just curious if you had any ⁓ insight into that and whether you think that any of these processes that we're talking about today may contribute to what we're seeing in terms of the deterioration of especially young women's mental health. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. I mean the data aren't good. Like women are doing the best in material senses that they've ever done, but doing the worst mentally. And so it's like this really it's a paradox, but I think from an evolutionary perspective, we can make sense of this for from a few perspectives that like women actually were vulnerable because they couldn't provide enough calories for themselves, let alone their children. And so if we think about in ancestral settings, that would have favored displays of vulnerability because if other people recognized, ⁓ like here's Susie, she looks like she's doing just fine, but Becky looks like she's having a really rough go of it, they might have helped Becky more. And so what that meant is over the course of human history, women who appealed to others' sympathies might have actually survived better than the women who were like, Don't worry, guys, I got it. I'm a girl boss over here. And so what that means is I think we've actually faced selective pressures to communicate vulnerability to other people. And so if you look at the data, women not only They perceive themselves as doing worse physically. So they actually think that they're less healthy than men. They perceive themselves as less mentally healthy than men. They say around the globe that they're sadder, they have lower life satisfaction. So we actually like feel worse about how we're doing, but we're also more likely to tell other people about our suffering. So women are more likely to go to the doctors, go to therapists. And tell their friends about their problems. I think part of the reason we communicate it to women is because other women reward it and like it and they see it as not a threat, but also it was one way to get support throughout human history. And so you get these like worldwide patterns where women go use these social health services more often. And then when you look at like sympathy for people, we show a bias where we care more when women are suffering compared to when men are. So we're we're better at recruiting support. And then if you look at like what disorders women tend to suffer from more, there are a lot of them are disorders that are communicating need and distress and suffering and vulnerability to other people. So women are more likely to be depressed, anxious. We also get we also self-harm more than men do. And what's interesting is we attempt suicide more than men do, but men are more likely to complete suicide. So like in terms of signaling desperation, we actually do it more. We just don't go all the way, all the way through as often. And so what I think that suggests is that like we have been selected to not only feel worse because that's one way of getting support, but like communicate distress to other people. And so the data suggests that these patterns are getting worse and worse over time. So there's like this thing called the gender-egalitarian paradox where men and women actually get more different. The more you treat them the same. So in modern worlds where people have equal opportunities, the sex differences get bigger and bigger. And this is one domain where we're also seeing this, where women are getting sadder, more depressed, more anxious, self-harming more. So all of these tendencies are actually getting worse in a modern environment. ⁓ and I think there might be like one reason that it's getting worse, is maybe because the world is getting more competitive. And so If in an ancestral group I look around and I see, ⁓ I'm doing the worst out of the 20 people around me, I might become depressed and then maybe people help me. But in a modern world, we look around and we see on social media all these women doing better than we are. We might feel like we're actually doing badly, even if we're not. Even though I have AC, a cell phone, a TV. Like, by all intents and purposes, I have great material standards. It's just that when I go on social media, I feel like I'm actually the one doing the worst in the world, you know? And so I think that it's kind of activating these adaptations that are making us feel like we truly are in a bad position and it's making us feel more depressed and anxious. And then we're getting rewarded by our same sex peers for con you know, conveying that. And so I think w we need to start paying attention to these patterns because it seems like they're they're only getting worse and worse. Mm-hmm. speaker-1: Do you think the answer to that is ⁓ is laying off of social media and just like getting away from ⁓ like the per se like like skewing your ⁓ perception to actually, you know, reflect what's happening, not the you know, everybody's highlight reel with social media. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. I I I really do. I think like staying off social media and even like finding ways to have downward social comparisons, which is messed up as it sounds, but I actually think that would be good, good for us. So like traveling to places where people have way lower standards of living, I think would be useful. Maybe following those people. If you are gonna be on social media, don't follow the influencers, follow the people from high school, you know? and then But pro preferably not being on social media at all. And even like I think I think also which cities we live in would also be very relevant. Like, are you in a place, are you living in LA or are you living in a small town in Kansas? That probably makes a difference to how you're feeling about your life. And so like managing our self-other comparisons, I think is key. And we are not good at that. We have a bias to like, I want to know what all the high status people are doing. You know, like it's fascinating to learn about them. But it's an I really don't think it's good for us. speaker-1: Yeah, no, I don't think it is either. I always ⁓ you know, I grew up in a small town in Wisconsin and when I need to like just get away from everything, I'll go I still call it going back home, even though I've got Texas home for twenty six years now. ⁓ so I've lived in Texas longer than I've lived in Wisconsin, but ⁓ but I still call it going home. Mm-hmm. ⁓ and I'll go back go back home and ⁓ and because it's a small town and ⁓ And it really does sort of put your feet back on the ground and make you realize that, you know, the sky isn't falling. Yeah. ⁓ with stress and that, ⁓ and that, you know, things are actually like life is pretty good. Mm-hmm. You know, and ⁓ and I think having like resets ⁓ is so good for all of us. You know, just like having something that you can do that will sort of reset your expectations about what your life is you think it's supposed to look like and ⁓ as as a way to sort of buffer from some of these negative effects. speaker-0: Totally. I notice a huge difference when I travel. Like when I go to South Beach, Miami, I leave those trips feeling horrible about myself. And then if I go to Mexico, I leave feeling guilty that my life is so good. You know, like it's night and day and all I've done is take a trip for, you know, a couple days. And so I do think like managing our like relative comparisons is really important because like if we think about it, we're like We're the luckiest anyone has ever been in history, and to live in like this the US, like it it's insane that we walk around thinking woe was me all the time. But it's so easy to get lost in those thoughts if like you're just online looking at influencers. speaker-1: Yeah, no, I I I completely agree. I ⁓ I my son and I ⁓ volunteer at a food pantry that's not that's like twenty five minutes away. And I'll I'll say that ⁓ you know, ever since we started doing that, it's it really does, you know, it it puts things into perspective where you can like pick up your phone and you can like look at what the things that we all see on our phones and social media and I'm like, This is all bullshit. Yeah, none of this really matters. Like what actually matters are the things that we're doing, you know, to serve other people and the things that that matter are the things that we're doing within speaker-0: No. speaker-1: our family and within the household and ⁓ and I think that that building and trying to intentionally bake some of that stuff into your days ⁓ can do a lot for for mental health. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And I think like having true connections where you like actually keep up with your friends helps me to realize too, like everybody has stuff going on. Like it's look if you just look at their social media, you would have no idea what their lives are like. But like when you really catch up with your friends, everyone's going through something and it helps me to be like, ⁓ we all have problems, you know? speaker-1: Yeah, no totally. So what ⁓ what is something like as we start to begin to wrap up, like what are some like what do you wish women better understood about each other? speaker-0: Hmm, I think maybe like understanding the expectations that we hold of each other, I think would be really good for helping women who like are more on like the autistic spectrum. I notice they have a really hard time or they can have a hard time with like female friends. And it's because they're like violating these rules that no one told them. ⁓ and so like these expectations of communicating kindness and commitment, like I think we have to give women this like in template manual for like here's how you have female friends to help those women that it doesn't come naturally to them and they're gonna violate those rules and not know why they're being excluded. but then on the other side of that, we can also like give women more grace when they violate those things. So if I have a friend that sends me a text message and she didn't include a smiley face. I don't need to doubt that the friendship is over, right? Like I can be like, ⁓ I have these really high standards for kindness and loyalty. Like that's just in my own head. I'm projecting this like she hates me and and she doesn't. So like I think really understanding those those two aspects that like we prefer these things in one another can help us like be more inclusive and not like freak out all the time. speaker-1: I always think like and I think right now because like therapy is kind of having a moment and there's a lot of this idea that ⁓ this person is toxic and you need to put up these boundaries and you need to exclude this person because you need to have this person out of your life because they're toxic for you and toxic, toxic, toxic people are cutting each other out. Yeah. ⁓ in ways that ⁓ I think is is counterproductive. ⁓ and obviously, you know, there are actually toxic people. And yes, there are people that you need to exclude from your life. ⁓ but I think that for me, the idea of boundaries isn't cutting people out of your life. It's just sort of recognizing that they're human and and only holding them to the standards of a human. Yeah. You know, which is which is that, okay, like I know this about you. Like you are not somebody who returns phone calls. And ⁓ but you're, you know, generally kind, whatever, whatever. ⁓ I'm not gonna form the kind of relationship with you where I need you to return my phone call. Yeah. I can still have a relationship with you. It's just gonna be different, no knowing that this is something that's true about you. And ⁓ and I think that ⁓ sort of shifting what we mean by boundaries, I think can also, you know, it's like like not just cutting people out when they're imperfect because ⁓ I don't, you know, I everybody's imperfect. Yeah. And if we like learn to sort of navigate and live with other people's imperfections and understand what we can and cannot expect of people based on who they are, not based on an ideal, right, but based on who they actually are. ⁓ then I think that that can really do a lot in terms of allowing us to have Really good relationships. I mean, with other women and with and with speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, I think that's like such a good point. And I I've come to realize like there are trade-offs and traits where like if I have a friend who's not warm, I'm just not gonna go to her when I need sympathy. And I know that. But the cool thing about her is if she's not female typical in these ways, she's also not gonna judge me if I didn't paint my nails. Or like if I'm like, I don't know, not dressed cute. Like There are trade-offs. And so, like, once we can like recognize like this friend offers this benefit, like like I can take her I can take her costs because she offers this. And then this friend I will go to for this need. And so like not all of them have to serve the same purpose and have a just like use them base for their strengths. speaker-1: Right. And I think I I think that that's such a good point. I mean, every every trait has trade-offs, everyone. You know, and I was just having this guy I don't even remember who I was having the conversation with, but we're talking about attractiveness in mates. It's like if you have an attractive mate that might seem to be unilaterally positive, but they're also going to be attractive to everybody else. Yes. You know, and so you are gonna have to have your antenna up all the time. And so there's even with something that seems as unilaterally or this person's really nice. Like that person also was probably gonna get burned out really easily because they're nice and ⁓ and nice people tend to get burned out because people are constantly going to them because they know that they can get support. And so everything comes with trade offs and understanding what those are and that every trait comes with them. Yes. ⁓ and then ⁓ and then and then being gentle with ourselves and then also with the people in our lives, understanding that with every good thing there's probably a bad thing, with most bad things there's also usually a good thing. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. And we wouldn't want like the friends that have such high standards that like they're gonna see us as toxic tomorrow. So like we wouldn't wanna like do that to somebody else because like if they held those sta same standards for us, like we're gonna mess up someday and be toxic in some way. So like we need to think about like well would I wanna be held to these same standards? speaker-1: Right, right. So is there anything else that we've talked that like like in our conversation that I did not ask you about that you think that ⁓ listeners should know about? speaker-0: Maybe just that like maybe that like when we're feeling down, the data suggests that our impulses to like disclose and co-ruminate aren't actually better for us. The data suggests that like we get more depressed when we like just rehash our problems. And so just because something feels intuitively better for us, I don't think that means it necessarily is. ⁓ the data suggests like actually going in the reverse. route and being more agentic, like exercising or distraction, tend to be better for our mental health. So like if we want to get out of these ruts, not doing the the thing that's intuitive is actually better for us. And likewise when we help other people who are in negative spirals, the intuitive thing is to tell them like you're perfect no matter what. Like don't change a thing. And that might not actually be the thing that helps them. So we might like maybe giving them slight with love Critical feedback, you know, like I love you no matter what, but maybe this would help, you know. And so I think like maybe just that our intuitive responses aren't necessarily the same thing as like what's actually better for us. speaker-1: That's really interesting. I think that, ⁓ I think that 'cause any of us could have had I mean, we've all had the experience where somebody's calling us or we're calling somebody because something terrible has happened. And just telling our friend or like, hey, like let's let's talk about it. We'll go for a walk. We'll go for a walk and talk about it. 'Cause then the walk, right, is having that actual positive effect. ⁓ and then, you know, the the co rumination. ⁓ that yeah, that's really interesting that it actually doesn't make anything better. Sometimes like I don't know that I care about that. You know, like like sometimes I just want to bathe in it. Yeah, like like I am upset and I just like want to wallow in a puddle of how upset I am. Yeah. I just like want to rub myself. I wanna rub it all over my body and I wanna like talk to my friends about it. I don't wanna I wanna put a sign out on I 35 about how upset I am. And ⁓ but yeah, no, I don't know that it helps. ⁓ but I I don't know that I would care that it doesn't help. But maybe if I did it while going for a walk. Yeah. Right, then I could actually solve the problem in addition to scratching my itch to just roll around and how terrible I feel. speaker-0: Yeah, so maybe we need to give ourselves like time limits. Like I get one wallow day where I get to bathe in this, but after that I need to do the opposite. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, that's so funny. ⁓ yeah, my my mom who I often will talk to to you know, to ruminate, she'll always ⁓ say like, All right, that's enough of this. Now it's time for you to get angry and do something about it. Wow, I love that. Yeah, it's time for you to get angry 'cause I'll just be like, I'm so sad and she'll be like, All right, okay, that's enough. ⁓ now now that we're done with this three hour conversation where you told me from eight different angles how you've been wronged. ⁓ now it's time for you to get angry about it and go fix the problem. speaker-0: Yeah. I that and like that's the thing that I don't think we hear from our female friends. It like that's the tough love of like famil you only get from family and like I think if we really love our female friends, we will pivot in the way that your mom does. You know, like we have to like let them but then get to like, okay, what are we gonna do about it now? speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. If you ever find yourself ⁓ ruminating and you need some tough left, just let me know I'll give you my mom's phone number because ⁓ she'll she's like four higher. She'll she'll like tell anybody that they need to pull themselves up by their by their pants and get angry about it and and and start solving problems. So I love that. I love that. Well ⁓ Tanya, Dr. Tanya Reynolds. Thank you so much for your time today. It was ⁓ this was I've had been looking forward to this all week and and I think listeners ⁓ are going to ⁓ really enjoy having been able to learn from you and your research and you know, and I really appreciate what you're doing because you're talking about something that ⁓ can be really difficult to talk about because when you talk about these things, ⁓ it's like, you know, like kind of like the dirty little secret of of female friendship and ⁓ women's interactions with one another. And ⁓ and it can put you as like a target, you know, of of hostility. and I I am so I'm so grateful for the work that you do and that we're able to have these really open conversations about these things. ⁓ and ⁓ and that you're doing it from a place of really wanting to make things better for women. So I really appreciate that. speaker-0: Thank you. And this was so much fun. So thank you for the opportunity. speaker-1: Yeah of course. And that's it for today's episode of the XX Lab. If you want more, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're enjoying the show, a rating or review helps other people find it. See you next episode.