Latest / America's Why Project / Episode 11: Part 1 — The Power of Listening in Divided Worlds: Narrative, Trust, and Conflict

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Episode 11: Part 1 — The Power of Listening in Divided Worlds: Narrative, Trust, and Conflict · America's Why Project

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: In those moments, you know, when I thought that I was being very rational in explaining something and I just sort of said something, the situation explodes.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the American Wide Podcast.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, I'm your host, Matt Levincher.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: For our opening episodes in chapter two of the podcast series, this chapter being called How to Listen, I'm thrilled to be joined today by a true professional in the field of listening and strategic communications.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Marissa Korma is the founder and president of the Amina Foundation and a strategic communications expert whose work sits at the intersection of public narrative, diplomacy, and economic development policy.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Marissa has extensive leadership experience across the Middle East and Africa, including as a diplomat for the Kingdom of Jordan and as director of the Middle East program at the Wilson Center in Washington, D.C.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: She's led major initiatives in strategic communications, messaging and narrative development, and advancing a listening first approach to public diplomacy and engagement.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: So, Marissa, just to start out, what is a listening first approach to public diplomacy?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: And how did communications become your lane?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, thank you so much, Professor Levinger, for having me.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: This is a very important topic, and it's very timely.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'll start with the sort of origin story of why I was sort of drawn into this world of communications and narrative.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think it has everything to do with my immediate environment at home.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Both my parents were diplomats, and I saw them, you know, navigating different social scenarios not just professionally, but beyond sort of the professional sphere.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: My mother is a polyglot, she speaks uh four languages fluently.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: So when we traveled, I saw the ease at which she was able to connect with people, um, you know, whenever we needed help to go somewhere or we were lost for directions.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that sort of inspired me.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um I enjoyed reading, I enjoyed poetry.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think those were all sort of uh uh different uh pathways to really understanding and embracing the world of um speaking with each other, the the world of words um more like it.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: And um and and it and it was somewhat accidental that I, you know, that my first gig um with the government of Jordan um here in Washington was press attache.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: But very quickly I understood that um you know what I need to do is I need to understand my environment, understand the audience, break it down, and then see how you know we can organize the work, how we can strategize accordingly.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: But it's uh the listening part is perhaps the foundational piece of any you know narrative building project or any communication strategy.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um you need to listen to understand, um, not listen to respond, and um and listen to um also get the data that you need that will help you craft your message in a much more effective way.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: So when when you talk about listening as intelligence, you know, gathering information, what what are the things you're listening for?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Do you listen for emotions, fear, humiliation, identity threat, fatigue, grief?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think all of these different elements emerge um in the listening exercise.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think from a perspective of of someone who um is on the receiving end, um, you know, I always am curious about someone's why, someone's story, and not everybody's ready to tell you that story right away.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to sort of build it up and warm up and ask questions so that they are able to uh verbalize or communicate their purpose, their why.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I definitely hear the emotions emerge in the conversation.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it's your cue to stop asking too many questions and sort of take a bit of a breather so that people can be more comfortable.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Not everybody is comfortable in discomfort, and sometimes understanding and asking a lot of questions can be overwhelming.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's really knowing or reading the situation, um, listening to the tone, um, you know, and the facial expressions.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: I come from the Middle East originally, born and raised in Jordan, and um as many countries in the Mediterranean, we also use a lot of gestures in the way that we communicate.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so all of these are important cues, but it's really how you connect with the person.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I I have this curiosity to understand uh and frame sort of the narrative accordingly, but but it is really about reading the room, you know, reading the temperature, even in the room, the tone, the body language, the choice of words.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: So all of these give us cues as to what the person is trying to say, and not everybody is able to express as easily.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a learning process for all of us.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I think this is what I start with, and I think this is where listening becomes such an essential tool for leadership.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it sounds like you learned from a pro from earliest childhood, and that your mother could get the necessary information and build rapport with almost anybody.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so you realize that communication is just not just a soft skill, it's it's uh there's profound power in being able to talk and listen in a way where you're building a connection.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: Is that fair to say?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, and um it it is it is very powerful.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: Narratives are very powerful, and they shape our perception of reality.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm one of the very few, I think, people in the Middle East foreign policy sphere that makes it a point to always get a sense of where people are at when discussing a particular foreign policy matter.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: What is their perception of what's happening?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes this is dismissed by policymakers as noise, and um it's um it's not taken seriously because the response is, well, we're speaking with governments, you know, public opinion is important to recognize, but it doesn't shape policy.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um but really uh perceptions are very important, they matter so much in foreign policy, uh, particularly because you know, states and governments and individuals do not act on realities only, but really on interpreting and reading these realities.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and that's why it's so powerful.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it it is um a soft skill.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: I I remember as a student of of um of American history back in high school in Jordan, one of the things that struck me was FDR's words about speaking softly but carrying a big stick.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's a lot written about the big stick policy, um, the importance of projecting military power and might.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: But we pay so much less attention to the first part of that, which is the speaking softly part.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to get anything across to your allies or your enemies and adversaries, you need to know how to speak to people.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: You need to make them hear you.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think um, you know, current events are very telling as to how um, you know, bombastic, aggressive, bellicose language sometimes doesn't get you anywhere.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's where the listening part is so important because it's again, it's listening to understand.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so it is very powerful and it is very and a very important tool in our everyday life, but particularly in diplomacy.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: What makes listening easy and what makes it hard?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think what makes it a little bit easier is um when you sense that people are engaged in that conversation when uh you're learning something new, when uh you're getting what you're what you want to get, you know, from the questions, you know, you're getting the responses that you're satiated by what you're getting.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think it becomes very difficult when it when it is very emotional or when there's some sort of barrier.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um again, not everybody's comfortable speaking up using their voice, especially if it requires being vulnerable in the moment, uh, and especially when it is personal.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that makes it very difficult because um you have to hold that person uh mentally and emotionally and you know create sort of conducive a conducive environment for them to speak up.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: So those are very difficult moments.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think the other difficult part is sometimes when you're when you're asking the questions, it's difficult to hear hard truths that you may not agree with.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: But it's so important to be in that space as well, because there's so much learning in that moment.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's not what I want to hear about the reality that I see a little bit differently than you, but it's very important to hear it.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's uncomfortable again, but that's how you sort of build that muscle of not only listening, you know, with intent, um uh, but also sort of carrying through that journey of where the listening takes you.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: So emotions may get in the way of careful listening, but also just everybody wants to be a good listener, but we don't necessarily want to hear what the other people are saying.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's very difficult.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: I've been on panel discussions in the last few years, particularly after the horrific attacks of October 7th and the you know the war that um that Israel waged in Gaza that um you know killed so many innocent civilians and and destroyed the Gaza Strip.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I spoke to Jewish American groups, I spoke to um, you know, very sort of uh diverse groups of people, you know, academics, universities, uh panel discussions.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um and there were things that I talked about uh regarding how people react or you know, how people feel about what's going on in Gaza in the region.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I it was very difficult for many people to sort of process it.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: I received some angry messages when it was a webinar.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: There were some very angry messages.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um people came up to me after and they said, Well, how how can you say what you said?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think similarly, um for me, it's also being in a room um where there's just, for example, there's so much talk about military targets.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, at the end of the conversation, you um people forget that there are humans, you know, at the at the tail end of this, and it's very uncomfortable.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but it's also something that reflects that particular, you know, um uh sector or the way that people talk about it.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it is it is difficult to hear these hard truths sometimes, yes.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in the first part of this interview, I'm very interested in hearing about how listening goes wrong.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then ideally, we can leave our audience hanging so they'll want to come back next week and hear all about how things can go right and what practical steps we can take as listeners to do our job better in order to establish these connections that are so important for maximizing the power and the creativity of our connections.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: So let me let me ask uh a general question about um how listening goes wrong in the abstract, and then I want to get a little bit personal and and just hear something about a case where listening went wrong for you and and how you might have made things right, or maybe how you did, in fact, come back and make things right later.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: But here's the general question.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: We know that narratives are very, very powerful things, and they can motivate groups to do great things together, and they can also motivate horrific violence.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so you've argued in one of your articles that narratives can harden into dehumanization and uh escalate the level of conflict, escalate the level of violence.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: What's a concrete moment when you thought we're losing our ability to see each other as human?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think the last few years for many of us working in the Middle East foreign policy space has been very challenging because particularly in the beginning of the war in Gaza, um it was very emotional uh and it was very charged.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um it became very tribal.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it it was really difficult to speak to each other.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think people spoke um above each other.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: It was very difficult to sort of sit and listen because there's so much pain and trauma and anger.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: And this is when you have to choose your words very, very carefully and really give people space to also share those personal moments.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: I can tell you that a lot of the panels that I moderated or hosted in these um uh in these first few months um of uh of the war, many people wanted to go personal and wanted to share where they're emotionally before getting into the hardcore and you know, so-called dispassionate analysis.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because there it was very important to provide that space.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I saw it in so many instances where you know one thing that was reframed in the wrong way was then misconstrued, it was uh you know, cut short, uh packaged on social media with so much commentary, and it um it angered a lot of people.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then you see you saw retractions, whether it was it came from governments or it came from from those who were commenting on these issues.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: So it it it was really very a very sort of charged, emotionally charged and politically charged space to work in.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh and I think those are the most difficult situations to craft your message and to use your words, you know, very um carefully.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that's where you are more likely as a listener, as a receiver of information as well, to believe anything that comes your way that fits your specific frame of thinking and your value system, or even your identity.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so it's it's sort of like the best case scenario for those who are pushing out disinformation, right?
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, yeah, I mean, listening can go wrong sometimes because of where we're at.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, on the personal front, you know, I'm gonna sort of bring it down all the way to my role as a parent, um, because I I find it extremely difficult sometimes to manage my own emotions in dealing with a parenting moment.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you you you sort of respond or you know, in a in a very um off you know handed way without really thinking about how this is going this is going to impact the situation.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: But then you know, children are kind of you know the the best litmus test for this because they react very quickly, very strongly right away.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: So so then, you know, in those moments, you know, when I thought that I was being very rational and explaining something and I just sort of said something, the situation explodes, right?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then this is when you step back and you realize, oh, I I actually have to connect and then correct, right, um, with my child.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it is a very steep learning curve, but I think that um I, you know, I I certainly um have been in situations where I, you know, was on a panel or in a meeting room and felt extremely uncomfortable with what I was hearing and sometimes even the questions that I'm being asked.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it's it took a lot of you know mental capacity to sort of you know sometimes bring myself to a place where I need to step back a little bit from my own thoughts to respond more thoughtfully.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: I can't think of one particular way where like listening went wrong, but um but but but those are sort of like general examples where you you you start, you know, when you're also very charged and you you don't really like what you're hearing, you know, if it's if it's the TV, you can switch it off.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: But when you're in a room and the purpose of the meeting is to actually uh have a discussion and address some of the issues, right?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Answer the questions, it becomes very, very challenging.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really about sort of almost like teleporting yourself out of yourself for a moment um and you know, allowing yourself to interpret things differently.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and I, as someone who you know grew up in the region and spent most of my adult life in North America and you know, speak fluent Arabic, and and and I sometimes feel like I also culturally translate situations in meetings for that particular reason um where listening can go wrong.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, like a fun example of this is when you know we were pitching this proposal with um um you know donors in the Middle East, and uh the meeting ended, and I was with the principal who was you know from the from the United States, and you know, the it was very cordial and collegial and very positive, right?
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but they said, Oh, this is great, yeah, let's let's talk soon and and and figure something out.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: And the the non native Arabic speaker left the room thinking, oh, I think we're gonna get the the funding.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, No, we're not.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and they're like, but why?
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: And they said, well, because there was no sort of handshake, no certainty.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: There was No clear follow-up as to how to do this.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: They're like you know, they don't say yes usually from the first instance, but they're going to you know commend you for the presentation and they're gonna tell you this sounds great, but that absolutely does not mean that the deal is done.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's sort of like you know, a fun example of how sometimes you're in the room, you're listening to the words, but really the contextual environment or the context in which this exchange is happening is interpreted very differently for both people.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think all of our listeners who are parents will certainly empathize with your uh experience of talking very rationally with a child and not getting what you see as being a rational response.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: But this last example that you gave really points to the question of how communication turns into power.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: So you have uh a meeting with a potential uh funder, your colleague says, Oh, this was great, but you know, based on your cultural knowledge, that that communication did not in fact translate into a deal.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so what I want to begin with next time is how do you crack that nut?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: How do you move from empathetic listening, which sounds good and it felt good at the time to be told how interesting your ideas were, but it didn't translate to a deal.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: How do you, as a master communicator, make that move from joint understanding and you know, collegial conversation to really moving the ball forward.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what we're gonna talk about in next week's episode.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds good.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: I look forward to it.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for your time, Marissa.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: We'll look forward to talking to you next week.
• 24:01
  unknown: Thank you.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: You're listening to the America's Why podcast.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: Our music is by James Fernando.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: For more information and to join the conversation, please visit our website at America's Why Project.com.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: See you next week.