Latest / Better Together / Creating Healthier Workplaces with Tiffany Castagno
Transcript
- Shawn Sundsvold: Hey everyone and welcome back to Better Together. This is the podcast that shares the stories, the lessons, and the practical advice from founders and leaders that can help you improve your business. I'm your host, Sean Sunsvold, along with my partner in business and in life, Kelly Sunsvold. Today's guest is Tiffany Castaño. is an ⁓ HR, people and culture consultant and founder of ⁓ Sefer With nearly 20 years of experience, Tiffany partners small to mid-sized businesses to build healthier, people-first workplaces where culture, leadership and strategy actually align. Her work is rooted in a powerful mission, helping people live and work well. without being harmed by their workplace experiences. What started as a step away from corporate HR turned into a thriving business built on trust, values, and real impact. Today, we're diving into what it really takes to build strong cultures and lead people well. Tiffany, thank you so much for being here and being a guest on the show. Tiffany Castagno: Thank you both for having me. This is really exciting. Shawn Sundsvold: glad to have you here. And so I want to start first with, you know, ⁓ who may not be familiar and our audience may not be familiar with what you do at Sefer Consulting. So tell us what you do and what you're focused on right now. Tiffany Castagno: Thank you. So Sefer is, I like to say a boutique. people and culture consultancy. We are focused on really meeting people where they're at so that they can build those strong cultures. And I'm not implying they don't have strong cultures, but we can all use more strong cultures, stronger cultures. So we're really focused on everything from the onboarding forward to offboarding. So that means helping build the processes, helping upscale and rescale folks, training and leadership development. And it's really an awesome thing to bring in psychological safety into the workforce. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, that's needed. I probably everyone listening and possibly everyone on this call has all had work experiences that have been less than ideal. So we definitely need people like you that help systematize and ⁓ create processes around a lot of things. ⁓ So when a client comes to what are they typically struggling with? And what are they really needing? And even if they don't even realize it yet. Tiffany Castagno: That, thank you Kelly for that powerful question. The last part is where my head went first. Like sometimes they don't know, right? That's our job as consultants. And that actually is the fun part, I think, when they're still figuring it out or they think they want one thing or they need one thing. And then we're like. Kelly Sundsvold: Yes. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Tiffany Castagno: Let's just guide a little bit differently. What really is impactful, important, is typically our clients who don't have human resources, which is the bulk of our clients, ⁓ are looking for someone who is not them to do this work with expertise that they don't have. They're looking for little bit of lift off of their plates. They handle all the day to day ⁓ as as payroll benefits, recruitment, all of those things. And then we come in and ⁓ help augment really their processes and their operations. So when they come to us, typically either they're not feeling like communications are strong in the organization, perhaps communication has broken down, there may be some employee relations or some turnover issues, or they just want to give good feedback and they want to be aligned with what their employees think and they want to understand better what their employees think. So I love when people come to us and there's some awareness to what's going on and they lean into their values. Kelly Sundsvold: ⁓ I was gonna know, ⁓ what you're talking about clients come to you and you have to put on that consultant hat. We find that we have to do that a lot too. ⁓ come to us and be like, you know, they might say like, I just need more social media or I need a better social media presence. But what they really need is leads ⁓ or, you know, like they'll go, well, I just. need this and I'm sure you see that a lot in your business too where the need you start recognizing those patterns that the needs that the clients really need you work and you get to the bottom of the meeting. So where I don't know what that would be in your business, but for ours, it's I need social media. Okay, let's talk about why you need social media. Like yes, social media is part of it. What's the underlying goal? You know, kind of fishing that out. Do you experience that in your business too? Tiffany Castagno: Yes. And for us, and this just happened the other day, it's usually we need training. Help us. We need training. And I'm like, do you? Kelly Sundsvold: Hey Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Tiffany Castagno: that's a common one in this space. And maybe it is. And so the conversation I had the other day was, OK, let's talk about that more. Let's understand what your goals are. And really what it came down to is just different conversations that needed to occur internally with maybe a baseline foundation of training, which we're really big on making, you know, being good financial stewards of our clients time and ours, and their budget. And so these important these questions become important to ask along the way. Kelly Sundsvold: Hmm. Absolutely. Shawn Sundsvold: Definitely, definitely. You know, in looking at your website, one of the things you talk a lot about on your website is living well at work, right? Because we spend 40 to 50 hours of our lives every week at work. And that doesn't include a time to commute for some people, right? We spend a lot of time at work. So for you, what does that actually look like in practice when you're going into these organizations and trying to put that sort of philosophy in place? Tiffany Castagno: All I love this. It really, mentioned psychological safety before and I think like many words, including culture, we think, ⁓ it's so fluffy. And it is things like what you mentioned, Sean, about commute. I actually, in the last two years, this is newer for me where I used to work primarily from all the way from home, pretty much. I first started SAFR six years ago and now ⁓ am actually hybrid. So I feel some of the pain that some people who may have to commute or ⁓ lose some of that ⁓ ⁓ Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Tiffany Castagno: And so for me, it's really allowing that person to be who they are in the work. We have a value of ⁓ being yourself at work. And so that really is something that people shouldn't be allowed to come in. They shouldn't feel like they have to be a separate person when they come to work, but that the workplace environment is taking care of them and not causing harm to them throughout the day. of our safety partners will say, want coming, you know, going home the same way you came in, meaning we don't want you having Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Tiffany Castagno: injuries, right? I feel the same way about psychological safety where the environment set up for me, do we follow them? Do we have the policies and do we follow them? Even to what benefits do we choose? How do I get promoted? Is there role clarity? Is there clarity and comfort in this work environment? There's so many different ways and it's beyond the yoga mat, my friends. ⁓ Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Hahaha! Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, yeah. It's, and I think too, like ⁓ I we've all seen it, since COVID, right? Job satisfaction and people stress in the workplace has gone up considerably because we see, know, COVID pushed everybody home. right, in a lot of ways for businesses. And now we're starting to get this messaging of, you need to be in the office. Well, no, we can be hybrid. Well, we're going to do, you know, three days a week. Well, no, this company is going to do five days a week, right? What is that doing to people right now in the sense of, you know, in talking about that psychological safety? Tiffany Castagno: It is. What a powerful question. started to answer and I had to pause, but I love a good powerful question. What, you know, it is having psychological effects and depending on that person's personal life, I know I'm caregiving right now and I'm filling out all sorts of forms and I'm checking on loved ones. We just had a loss in the family. So that's just my world on top of being a business owner, on top of the intersections at which I live and the uncertainty and all of the things we're living through. So it's really important. to understand where that person is coming from and to get to know your employees so you're not just pushing out the work to see do they have transportation for work. So when we're asking people to be able to do that or we're switching things saying, hey, guess what? Everyone's coming back, at least if you're going to do that to phase it out. But it is hard. There are folks who are facing microaggressions or discrimination or harassment at work. Do I really want to come back? There are folks we've seen a trend in HR over the last, gosh, probably pushing 15 years. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Tiffany Castagno: ⁓ increased domestic violence that gets reported at work and so, ⁓ workplace violence is on the rise, right? If that's a place where I feel not safe ⁓ harmed, ⁓ probably not a place where I wanna go to. So I just would encourage people to really think about that and at least if you're gonna make folks come in, that it's a safe place for them to be and to feel safe to report any incidents as well. ⁓ Shawn Sundsvold: Hmm. Kelly Sundsvold: Wow. Yeah, wow, wow. Definitely a different side of business than we see. So thank you for sharing that. ⁓ Yeah, so let's rewind just a little bit and going back to kind of your starting So ⁓ led you from corporate HR? You were in there for many years and just starting your own business. Tiffany Castagno: sure. The short of it is that I felt like I was not able to make as much impact as I wanted. And I felt I'm a person of faith. And there was literally this just constant nagging that I feel like I need to do more. I need to do more. I'm called to do more. And I was also in places myself where sometimes I wasn't celebrated and elevated and didn't feel like I had a voice or the right opportunities. And so I decided, ⁓ OK, this needs to look different. I don't know what that means, but I'm going to resign from my current position. Give I think I gave like a couple of months notice and said, I don't know what's next, but I want to figure that out. And that was one of the best things I've done. A colleague then soon reached out and said, hey, I think we could use some HR support. Another former colleague reached out and said the same. And they began referring other opportunities my way. And my husband's like, at the time it was COVID, right? So we're both sitting working at the kitchen island and the kitchen table as our workspaces. ⁓ said, I think you're doing this part time. It seems like you're doing part time. Maybe you could just you know, find something fun you want to do for your, you know, another part-time opportunity. I'm like, that sounds great. And the next thing I know, he's like, it seems like you're doing this full time. So he was realizing this before I did. So this was, I call it my, I like to make a joke about PPP, the Pandemic Passion Project, not like the loan, because I never, I never intended to start this full time, but. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah Shawn Sundsvold: There you go. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Tiffany Castagno: Even today, referrals in our community, the strong brand and network we've built has really allowed Suffer to thrive and grow. So I'm very excited for the journey. Thank you. Kelly Sundsvold: Love that. I love that for you. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, that's such an awesome story. interesting because so many of the people we've talked to, right? The term accidental CEO comes into play, right? Where it's like, ⁓ made a change ⁓ ⁓ didn't necessarily think that was gonna be their ⁓ right? And all of a sudden it just grew and it grew and it grew. Was there like a single turning point that you just went, yeah. Tiffany Castagno: Hmm yep Shawn Sundsvold: That's what I'm going to do. Or was it just that gradual process? Was there any like single moment you can pinpoint that you just look at it's like you see that switch happening? Tiffany Castagno: I feel like it just happened and I appreciate this question because the time I thought, okay, this will be something I'll do in 10 years. I'll start it, you know, I'll start gathering information, which 10 years in today's that that sounds like a long time to do this. with rapid advancing technology, ⁓ think it just organically happened. And I'm actually glad for that because honestly, I think ⁓ fear of doing this, right, losing financial stability sales, who wants to do that? But it's as I have come to it's relationship management, it's sharing what you know and being willing to make that impact. So switch, while it ⁓ quickly, ⁓ also was very organic ⁓ kind of met me where I was at, which is what allows me to now meet others where they are. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: really good. You those early days are scary. You know, like we started during the pandemic as well. ⁓ And was like you. ⁓ We this was a side hustle for me. Like I thought, okay. You know, I'm just going to do this. And it ended up, had no idea it was going to turn into a full-time job, but I love it. We brought Sean on. He was officially able to go full-time in 22. And so yeah, there's something out of those. I'll remember that PPP. So what were those early days like? You said you kind of went into it a little bit part-time working in your kitchen. Tiffany Castagno: Yes! Shawn Sundsvold: Ha Kelly Sundsvold: and then slowly it started increasing. But what were those early days out? Were you like going to networking events or, you know, like did what did what it kind of look like? ⁓ Tiffany Castagno: Thank you. Yes, it was it was a lot of in person. networking that kind of turned to, okay, this is like really serious. and out, right? Of, okay, we think we're in the clear. ⁓ here comes another round of this virus. ⁓ so it was really period of adaptability and also ⁓ understanding my comfort level was ⁓ while companies shape their policy with, you know, people who maybe still wanted to meet you in person. So lots and lots of virtual coffees ⁓ to point that I was like, I think have to scale these back because I'm actually getting business. So figuring that out and putting my own business infrastructure in place to what is the tech stack look like? And small business, seems like it's always disparate things, but also a lot of deep listening. I did so much listening to ⁓ market, whether that was on social media, through ⁓ sales calls that I was having, which was amazing to be able to ⁓ hear what people needed. And that's something that carried me through today, which has been really neat. it was a lot of that really building my network. I was only really like many of us using LinkedIn for a resume repository and trying to find a job, apply to jobs. And I had no idea all these wonderful HR folks, other folks in my community. So I really expanded my network and started getting out there and recorded my first video from my kitchen, which was really great too. Shawn Sundsvold: There you go. That's awesome. That's awesome. Kind of thinking about, you know, now that you're six years in, and we, ⁓ don't know if you saw it the other day, but you know, we just passed March 12th, which was the ⁓ years of COVID, right? Like six years ago, ⁓ was labeled a pandemic on March 12th of 2020, right? And so you're now six years from that. You know, Tiffany Castagno: Right? goodness. Shawn Sundsvold: And thinking about your business, what's been one of the biggest challenges you've had to navigate now that you're a business owner in running your business? Tiffany Castagno: Honestly, I feel like it's the things that I'm helping other people with sometimes it is Keeping the right level of infrastructure, because just when you think you have it figured out, the business matures, something happens in the external environment, something regulatory happens, someone on the team moves on, someone comes on to the team, you're trying to figure out what's the right balance of ratio in team to client mix. And that for me, I feel like the staffing piece is always tricky. And while we don't support with that part with our clients, we understand the strategies behind it. I'm trying to help other folks procure their software and figure out the operation side to make it click and that clarity. ⁓ doing the same behind the scenes and it's a continuous process but we embrace strategic excellence. So principles to just understand ⁓ to it moving and to be able to be flexible and adapt to changing times. Change management is our jam. ⁓ Kelly Sundsvold: It's so important to be able to shift with, mean, we had a pandemic, but I also think there's been huge technology advancements that have happened ⁓ the world in the last six years. And so being able to shift quickly is what really separates good businesses from great businesses. Is there a lesson you've had to learn the hard way that now you carry that? Shawn Sundsvold: Love it. Kelly Sundsvold: you now carry in how you run the business. Like maybe there was something at the beginning that you were like, that was not the right way to handle that. Now I'm going to do this now. Or, ⁓ know, for us, was, we realized pretty quickly accounting was not our strength on either one of our sides. And so ⁓ hired a bookkeeper and an accountant. So yeah, tell me more. Shawn Sundsvold: You Tiffany Castagno: Yeah. Thankfully, I don't think the accounting thing I'm laughing. there are so many things that we have to have those core pieces of our business. And so I was able to do that in the beginning. Attorney, accounting, financial tech stack. Good. but I would say pricing was, think many of us struggle with that and that, ooh, ⁓ that's When we think back ⁓ to it's, meeting the market where it's ⁓ at also understanding that I serve small to medium businesses, both in the. ⁓ nonprofit and for-profit space, which is a differentiation of how we price. And so that took a lot of listening and understanding. I actually worked with a pricing coach as well to figure that out, to make sure that it was the right mix that felt like it could be financially aligned with my client's budget. then we also, there was a different type of vetting that we do now just to make sure that is aligned. And we ask different questions now, but I had a colleague in those early days be like, send this, take back and mark it up by $30 an hour and it back to me because she had an awareness of the budget that either wasn't being shared, it wasn't known, and not saying she was sharing anything confidential, but she was basically like, your prices are too low because we can price ourselves out of the market that way too. And people think it's just on the higher end. It is a balance. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, pricing is so hard. ⁓ my gosh. Shawn Sundsvold: Definitely, definitely. think, yeah, we still go, you know, and I don't, and I think as, things change too, right, as businesses grow and you've got more overhead and things like that, there's, there's pieces of that, that you have to sort of keep up with, right. And making sure that you price according to those things so that you're not suddenly costing yourself to run your business. Tiffany Castagno: So hard. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Learn that the hard way. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. ⁓ ⁓ I can think of a couple of website projects we've done where it's like, we ⁓ we them ⁓ to that website. That was great. ⁓ You so, you so I'm curious, know, you're at the unique intersection of people and culture, right? As an as an HR specialist. How has ⁓ your experience there doing that? How has it changed you as a leader and running your business? Kelly Sundsvold: yes. Tiffany Castagno: Yeah Kelly Sundsvold: You Yes. Tiffany Castagno: you this. This been a deeply personal journey. ⁓ It strengthened my faith and myself ⁓ and faith from ⁓ a belief but also ⁓ it's really my hope and the that I feel about ⁓ humanity. And it's me great insight into who people ⁓ are and giving myself giving others more grace. And I've always pretty much been that person. But I think a leader, it's thing to be a leader in ⁓ corporate and then the dynamics of running a small business and not having this budget to hire the way that maybe sometimes you want. ⁓ It you scrappier. It shows you some of the, I guess, the blind spots maybe that you had in your leadership when you're seeking feedback from team members or when you're like, why won't this work or why was it so much easier before or how come I can help my client? do this and I can't do it, right? So it's all those beautiful things that it's the grit, it's the grit and the constant adaptability that we've been talking about. And I've been through several rounds of burnout. And through that have learned self care, and that, you know, we have to care for ourselves, take our time off and all of those things as well in the process. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that self-care piece that you mentioned is just so important and especially as a business leader. It's not just important for your team and your staff. Like, you know, most places they build in time for you to take a vacation and you're supposed to take it, right? Despite whatever the culture is, you're supposed to take it, right? But as business owners, I think sometimes it's even harder for us because we put so much pressure well, if I'm not here, the business doesn't go forward. Right, and so there's that extra push and it sounds like you've felt that somewhere along the way and had to work through that same thing. Tiffany Castagno: Mm-hmm the other piece that I would say and what you said Sean just brought that up for me is there's leadership in corporate and then there's leadership in your own business where it is yours and it's I've learned so many things of like what not to do and even in applying those here, it's really through those interactions and you have this aha moment of, wait, I can be the leader I aspire to be. I can be the leader who I always wanted and now this is up to me and so I really feel just so grateful that I can lead the way that I want to and ⁓ the role model leader that we all need. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, yeah, I love that. ⁓ of looking, you're have the vantage point kind of like us where you're always going into different businesses and talking to different business owners and ⁓ you to see a pattern and you start to see consistencies ⁓ in So from your perspective, what's one thing business leaders are getting wrong when it comes their people and culture? Shawn Sundsvold: awesome. Okay. Tiffany Castagno: Just one, huh? Just kidding. kidding, not. ⁓ I would. Kelly Sundsvold: It's a tricky question. know, I know. But it's, I think you're looking at it from an HR perspective. And so it's really, you know, it's a really different kind of piece that you see, you know, than we get to see. So, yeah. Tiffany Castagno: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I definitely appreciate the curious question. would say that one of the things that I would encourage more is listening. And we say that and we hear it, right? But active listening, ⁓ say that and they throw it around. But ⁓ I see is people are like, I'm listening. Well, are you are you multitasking during your meetings? Are you pushing off those one on ones? Are you really ⁓ to what's going on in the day to day for that person? Or are you only listening when there's a project update? ⁓ I think ⁓ is listening between the lines, too, which is so powerful and it takes a lot to not be distracted. I get it. I value presence, but it's hard. We have lots of things demanding our attention, but I'd say Listening with the intent to understand versus to respond is ⁓ really, important. And if we did more of that, there'd be more clarity in the workplace. I see that as a common pattern. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, wow, that's a good insight. I love that. So let's talk about that a little bit more because, you know, in that aspect of things, sometimes there's really hard conversations, right? So how can leaders ⁓ more comfortable having those really difficult conversations that they really want to avoid? Tiffany Castagno: they just want to run. I want to run sometimes. ⁓ I would say. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Tiffany Castagno: It's important to draw maybe some talking points before work with your HR partner to take some of that discomfort away because typically what we're feeling is guts lead us in the right direction most of the time and maybe we just need a little more guidance, but I would say lean into it. It worse if you actually let these things fester and it's not fair to the employee, it's not fair to you, it ⁓ invites to the organization. ⁓ I say just leaning into it and being as empathetic as you even if you have to have that hard conversation, especially when it's performance-based feedback as well, that person deserves that feedback. They need it so that they can continue to grow. And I also always tell people, that's your job. That's what you signed up for. Whether you realized it or not, here we are. You can decide later if leadership's not for you, but this is what we signed up for. And sometimes I go, do I want to do this? But here we are, right? We're in it. We have responsibilities and accountabilities. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yes. Kelly Sundsvold: I love the way you just framed that. This is where we are right now. So you get to make that decision. No, love that. yeah, mean, yes, totally, totally. Because sometimes those conversations, man, they get hard. yeah. ⁓ So far as like workplace, my goodness, I can't talk. Workplace health. Tiffany Castagno: a realist. ⁓ Shawn Sundsvold: There you go. Kelly Sundsvold: What's one practical step that a business owner could take week, next week to create a healthier workplace for their employees? Tiffany Castagno: the best questions ever on podcast. I think, you know, I would say giving space, right? And that space in the agenda. What I often see is that the leadership is having the whole conversation during a one-on-one and I'm like, well, when is the other person supposed to talk and share? And that's where we uncover things as well as not canceling those one-on-ones. Having different voices represented from across the organization or allowing people to cross collaborate, really this space to unpack. Kelly Sundsvold: Ha ha! Tiffany Castagno: when a mistake happens or to make that person feel safe if they're going through a little bit of life and give them some flexibility and wiggle room. We don't always have to be so rigid to the rules that people probably think that's funny coming from someone in my profession. But I think it's really about shared space too, right? And shared accountability to building culture is not just the leadership's responsibility. It's not just on the team to show up a certain way and act in accordance with the values that are on this website and these walls. It's all of us that build culture and there's a responsibility that when we are in shared space together and we collectively agree to nurture that, it's really powerful and impactful. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, I love that. Because everybody wants to make their workplace better, right? Even if it's just small steps, you know, it's really important ⁓ days. ⁓ curious, ⁓ know, we've talked a lot about companies that have HR and they're large enough to do that. A significant portion of our audience is companies that are small enough that they don't necessarily need an HR person ⁓ yet, but they're growing, right? So how should a small business think about HR Kelly Sundsvold: you Shawn Sundsvold: before they get big enough to need somebody for it? Like what things should they be putting in place or thinking about to help make that transition and effective? Tiffany Castagno: Yeah, I would definitely say, and this is how we work with our clients too. So we work with startups and new founders as well before they get to that place. So whether you have zero employees or 60 employees or more, there's a foundation that you want to set. And so I would say aligning ⁓ establishing values and making sure you have that alongside, you know, policies, who do you want to be? And that exercise often gets skipped ⁓ then people are thrown into, now I ⁓ a team and I have all these things and people expect all these things of me. Well, we haven't built a solid foundation of who is this company, who is Cepher, for instance, and really looking at what how we want to set this up. I would say the other thing that I see from the very beginning is people not they are ready to hire a team or before that establishing consistent interview questions and that process we have to get some processes and SOP in place ⁓ well as then great now you're going to make your first hire. How do we bring them in and create a great experience, candidate experience and employee experience. And the onboarding suite is a lot of what we help people do kind of ⁓ that enhanced because they're like, ⁓ I should think about these things before they start because I promise you people feel it when they come in and the organization was not ready. So I would say some of those foundational pieces as as who's going to help you with your payroll and your accounting and make sure you have a good lawyer as well. help you with your own contracts. those are really important pieces before you even think about bringing someone else in. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, good insight there. Thank you. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, that is, yeah. What's one takeaway you would hope that the listeners who are listening to this conversation would walk away from this conversation? Tiffany Castagno: Thanks. I'd say being the leader that you either want or wish you had, and I know that sounds cliche, but opening up space and making sure that folks are taken care of. have a responsibility and accountability as leadership and organizations to take care of the people who are within our organizations. And there's so much more in the organization and the leadership domain that we control that can change and dramatically shift the the culture and the employee experience. So I would ask people to go inside a little bit and ⁓ about what they want their leadership brand to be and what type of culture do they, what do they want people to say about their organization? Because they're saying it online, whether you like it or not. Kelly Sundsvold: Right. Right. Shawn Sundsvold: Yes they are. Yes they are. Well Tiffany, this has been a fantastic conversation. I appreciate it a whole lot. How can people get in touch with you if they want to learn more about you and Sefer and what you do? Tiffany Castagno: to. Thanks. am very present on LinkedIn, so you can find me there just under my name. We also have a company page, or you can visit our website at sepherconsulting.com. We'd love to have a conversation if you feel we can support you. Shawn Sundsvold: we'll make sure that's all in the show description for everyone who's listening. ⁓ Tiffany, I just want to say thank you so much for being on today. was a great conversation. I'm going to take away the Pandemic Passion Project phrasing for the future. That was fantastic. ⁓ We think of people in one way, and now it's been ⁓ completely in my brain. So thank you. Kelly Sundsvold: You Tiffany Castagno: welcome. Who says you can't have fun at work, right? Kelly Sundsvold: Right, exactly. Shawn Sundsvold: ⁓ As always, and you should, right? So, all right. Well, again, Tiffany, thank you so much. We'd love to have you on again at some point. Thanks for being here. Tiffany Castagno: Yes. Thank