Latest / The MOOD Podcast / From Chronic Pain to Creative Power: Simon Baxter, EO88

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From Chronic Pain to Creative Power: Simon Baxter, EO88 · The MOOD Podcast

• 0:00
  Matt Jacob: Welcome to the Mood Podcast, uncovering the art of conversation through the lens of photography and creativity, one frame at a time.
• 0:07
  Matt Jacob: I'm your host, matt Jacob.
• 0:09
  Matt Jacob: Thank you so much for joining me in today's conversation.
• 0:13
  Matt Jacob: And today I'm speaking with Simon Baxter, a woodland photographer from North Yorkshire in England, whose intimate connection with nature and solitude has made him one of the most respected voices in the outdoor photography community, known for his deeply personal approach to capturing quiet, overlooked corners of the natural world.
• 0:34
  Matt Jacob: Simon's work is a meditation on patience, presence and emotional resonance.
• 0:39
  Matt Jacob: In this episode we talked about how chronic illness shaped his path into woodland photography, how solitude fuels creativity and what it means to build a relationship with a single place.
• 0:52
  Matt Jacob: Over years, we explore the ethical tension of sharing sacred spaces, the emotional power of stillness and whether art can truly shift how people engage with nature.
• 1:02
  Matt Jacob: It's really a grounded and reflective conversation, one that might just inspire you to slow down, go for a walk, look a little closer at the beauty hiding in plain sight.
• 1:16
  Matt Jacob: So now I bring you Simon Baxter.
• 1:24
  Matt Jacob: Simon Baxter, welcome to the Moo Podcast.
• 1:26
  Matt Jacob: Thank you for having me.
• 1:29
  Matt Jacob: Glad to be here.
• 1:29
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, it's really great to have you here.
• 1:30
  Matt Jacob: Of course, I'm very excited to jump into your unique and beautiful photography and work, as well as all of the stories behind it and your philosophies and your where's and how's behind your process and output.
• 1:44
  Matt Jacob: But I wanted to go through the conversation as chronologically as possible, as best we can in terms of your pedigree and your history, and all the way up to present day.
• 1:55
  Matt Jacob: But actually, to start, I wanted to go a little bit deeper into something that might be relevant to your secret ingredient certainly the philosophy or the unique philosophy that you take through photography.
• 2:09
  Matt Jacob: So if you did have a secret ingredient that made you be able to do what you do, even through all the tough times and all the good times as well, what do you think that would be necessarily?
• 2:25
  Simon Baxter: well, what do you think that would be necessarily Secret ingredient?
• 2:31
  Simon Baxter: Wow, when I think back to pivotal moments in my photography, when you have that bit of epiphany where there's something that's always been there but there becomes a moment when you actually become consciously aware of it.
• 2:47
  Simon Baxter: And I think one of the most important moments for me, which I do see as a secret ingredient, because it's something that you can't teach people, it's something very difficult to articulate and that's an emotional connection to what you photograph.
• 3:05
  Simon Baxter: And I remember the specific moment when this happened and you kind of know that you become emotionally charged when you're photographing something that you love and there is a genuine connection there.
• 3:20
  Simon Baxter: But trying to understand it or recognize how it influences your photography is really quite difficult.
• 3:27
  Simon Baxter: But there was a moment when I was out one day and I was sort of struggling with sort of back issues which was resulting in mental health issues.
• 3:37
  Simon Baxter: I was photographing a particular tree and it suddenly hit me like oh my god, I've just realized that I'm photographing things which feel like a reflection of how I'm feeling.
• 3:51
  Simon Baxter: You know somber scenes, moody trees, struggling trees, you know trees reaching out into open space, just looking for something.
• 4:01
  Simon Baxter: And when I realized that, you know, I wasn't just photographing nice looking trees.
• 4:06
  Simon Baxter: There was something you know more.
• 4:08
  Simon Baxter: You know deep, deeper.
• 4:10
  Simon Baxter: Here there's deeper connection.
• 4:11
  Simon Baxter: I just I was just overcome with emotion, um, which I never expected.
• 4:16
  Simon Baxter: You know, my partner would say that I'm not an emotional person, but I know, I know that I very much am in a lot of ways and, yeah, that was really quite a profound moment and that's something that I've run with since is the importance of being emotionally connected with the things that you love to photograph.
• 4:43
  Matt Jacob: So where has that emotional connection come from?
• 4:44
  Matt Jacob: You mentioned a little bit there about injuries and being in chronic pain.
• 4:49
  Matt Jacob: Tell us a little bit about that backstory.
• 4:52
  Simon Baxter: Yeah, so prior to becoming a woodland photographer, I was a website developer.
• 4:59
  Simon Baxter: So I spent a lot of time sat at a desk, and when I was a website developer, my hobbies were very much fueled by adrenaline.
• 5:10
  Simon Baxter: So I was a keen mountain biker, you know snowboarding, hiking, that kind of thing, you know kayaking and all sorts of stuff.
• 5:20
  Simon Baxter: But then I never had any particular warning signs that my back was struggling and I just hit a tipping point and it just went kind of pop.
• 5:28
  Simon Baxter: Uh, one day um ended up with a ruptured disc, ended up with all sorts of weird, um nerve pains, you know, terrible kind of joint and muscular pain, and it sort of sent me into a bit of a downward spiral really, because it was that it was the early stages that they were most difficult, because you're thinking, oh, you know it's, it's been two weeks that I've not ridden my bike, uh, whereas now it's been 13 years and as time goes on you know that it becomes easier and you become more accepting of of pain, um, but I spent the first kind of couple of years really struggling with it, um, and then my partner recognized that I needed something, I needed some help, and we ended up getting a dog, which became a surprise because my partner is allergic to, to most dogs.
• 6:22
  Simon Baxter: But she found out that her friend was having a.
• 6:23
  Simon Baxter: Yeah, she worked.
• 6:24
  Simon Baxter: My friend was having a one-off litter of labradoodles and she said I've heard the hypoallergenic.
• 6:29
  Simon Baxter: So you know, let's go and have a look and I'll see how we we get on.
• 6:33
  Simon Baxter: Um.
• 6:34
  Simon Baxter: So, yeah, then we got meg and she became a positive distraction because I was at home alone every day, you know, trying to make websites, but business was suffering because I couldn't spend the time at desks.
• 6:45
  Simon Baxter: She became a positive distraction.
• 6:46
  Simon Baxter: I started to take meg out, um, on.
• 6:50
  Simon Baxter: What is very odd, our lives are in tandem, because if you've got a puppy you have to kind of slowly, slowly, introduce them to the world.
• 6:59
  Simon Baxter: You know, you have a 15 minute walk and then over a period of months you build it up to 20 minutes, 30 minutes and so on, and I was kind of going at the same pace as meg.
• 7:08
  Simon Baxter: It's like, oh well, I've walked 15 minutes and that's enough for me, um.
• 7:13
  Simon Baxter: And then, once you got to a year old, I was ready to walk further, um, and then we started to.
• 7:20
  Simon Baxter: I started to photograph meg in the woods.
• 7:21
  Simon Baxter: Then I would photograph her in the open landscape, then I would turn my photograph.
• 7:24
  Simon Baxter: Her in the open landscape, then I would turn my camera to only the open landscape.
• 7:27
  Simon Baxter: And then I realized that from a pain perspective it just wasn't enough, because if I was stood there waiting for the golden light to arrive, I'd be stood there thinking about pain.
• 7:39
  Simon Baxter: So I decided to kind of get back into the woods, which is kind of where my roots are really, you know, as a mountain biker, but I just approached it at a much slower pace and then I was wandering around in the woods one day in an unfamiliar woodland, and felt completely different.
• 7:59
  Simon Baxter: There's something very special about that environment and I realized after an hour of walking around um, I hadn't thought of pain in that past hour, which was the first time for for an hour in in three years, and I thought that's something special.
• 8:18
  Simon Baxter: You know, I need to explore that and repeat it as often as I possibly can.
• 8:23
  Matt Jacob: And that's where I fell in love with woodland photography wow, um distraction then, or more therapy, or somewhere in the middle yeah, well, if you try to distract yourself, it doesn't work, does it?
• 8:38
  Simon Baxter: um, whereas this felt like a genuine distraction, and but I mean distraction doesn't really do it justice.
• 8:44
  Simon Baxter: It's because you become immersed in your surroundings.
• 8:47
  Simon Baxter: So, yeah, so the therapeutic benefits of being immersed in nature, I mean the well-documented.
• 8:56
  Simon Baxter: Now in Japan they have Shinrin-yoku, you know, forest bathing, which wasn't something that I was aware of at the time.
• 9:03
  Simon Baxter: It's just something I've been introduced to since, having already benefited from that green prescription, if you like.
• 9:11
  Simon Baxter: And yeah, I mean it's like a drug, isn't it?
• 9:16
  Simon Baxter: You realize it's doing you good and every time you go out, you feel that little bit better and you get this cumulative effect of spending, spending time in nature with, you know, your best friend.
• 9:28
  Simon Baxter: And then photography just became a celebration of that, I guess green prescription I love that, that's very, very, very cool.
• 9:39
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, have a dose of of of greenery, that'll do you some good, and I think maybe yeah, maybe not distraction, but maybe like a flow state as well add in photography as well as the green prescription, and then you've got a recipe for something extremely powerful and and healing.
• 9:55
  Simon Baxter: Essentially, yeah exactly because you know it's, it's there's a constant shift in stimulus in the woods.
• 10:03
  Simon Baxter: You know there's nowhere I can't think of anywhere else that's as complex and changes as much with the seasons as being in the woods.
• 10:12
  Simon Baxter: You get constant changes in color, texture, light, smells, wildlife.
• 10:22
  Simon Baxter: You know it all changes with the seasons and it changes with every single visit and that's that's the thing you know you've just there's so much to take in that it's like the pain gate.
• 10:33
  Simon Baxter: You know if your arm's hurting but then somebody hits you on the thumb with a hammer, your arm no longer hurts, you're just thinking about your thumb and it's a bit like that.
• 10:44
  Simon Baxter: There's no room for for anything else because you're so consumed with trying to make sense of everything that's going on around you so that the creative process of photography it's encouraged you to to slow down and be observant and to be to observe the woods and take it all in in a way that you know visually makes sense and becomes cohesive.
• 11:05
  Simon Baxter: You know it takes, it takes time and it takes a lot of attention, and you can maybe hear Meg barking in the background right now.
• 11:17
  Matt Jacob: Go on, Meg, let it all out.
• 11:18
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, I know that sound.
• 11:21
  Matt Jacob: We have four dogs at home and, um, yeah, I definitely have a favorite and she's the quietest one.
• 11:27
  Matt Jacob: So it says a lot about the other three.
• 11:30
  Matt Jacob: And so is that creative process?
• 11:34
  Matt Jacob: Is that something?
• 11:36
  Matt Jacob: Is that where you really derive the happiness?
• 11:38
  Matt Jacob: I saw a quote of yours and I wrote it down here there's much more to happiness in photography than just a great photograph.
• 11:44
  Matt Jacob: So can you can explain that a little bit and and dissect that for us?
• 11:50
  Simon Baxter: yeah, I guess that's my second secret ingredient is, um is this there's so much pressure these days, isn't there to to produce, you know, to create content, to put a photograph out there onto social media, and I'm sure you've had lots of guests that have, you know, talked about the pressures, pressures of social media.
• 12:13
  Simon Baxter: We're all completely aware of it.
• 12:15
  Simon Baxter: But even though we're aware of the problems of that pressure, I think most people still give into that and because you know they've got a business to run the fields, if they have to feed the algorithms, um, but that's something that I've genuinely managed quite well.
• 12:35
  Simon Baxter: I think you know I do enough to sustain a business, um, but I definitely don't play to the algorithms.
• 12:45
  Simon Baxter: I don't put stuff out there for the sake of, you know, publishing a photograph, and the reason for that is is because I just don't put pressure on me to produce.
• 12:58
  Simon Baxter: You know, you, you have this expected output, don't we?
• 13:01
  Simon Baxter: Which is a photograph.
• 13:03
  Simon Baxter: But the creative process is about so much more than the end result, and that's where I like to focus on, because I know, if I get that right, if I get the process right, the photographs will come when they're good and ready, um, but if I'm constantly putting pressure on myself to go out and actually make images.
• 13:23
  Simon Baxter: It doesn't allow me any kind of breathing room.
• 13:26
  Simon Baxter: It doesn't allow me the space to go out and actually try something new, to actually just enjoy the woods for what it is and everything that it has to offer.
• 13:34
  Simon Baxter: And I need that space.
• 13:37
  Simon Baxter: I need it to feel like a hobby, because as soon as I'm out there every day because I feel as if I have to make a video, then it becomes very much a business.
• 13:47
  Simon Baxter: But I think I like to think that the the one of the best qualities about, you know, producing a photograph is that it has a piece of view in it.
• 13:56
  Simon Baxter: It's, it's got some soul, it's something very personal.
• 13:59
  Simon Baxter: It's not just serving a purpose for, for a business, um, and I think you know I, for it to have soul, I have to, I have to feel it, and I have business, um, and I think you know I, for it to have soul, I have to, I have to feel it and I have to understand the place and I have to feel good about being there.
• 14:11
  Simon Baxter: Um, and that's only going to happen if I'm going out and actually just enjoying it without a camera as well, um, and that's always the best, but that's always the best possible place to be creative.
• 14:35
  Simon Baxter: So, yeah, I mean, I think hand in hand in that actually is actually depriving yourself of the things that you love sometimes.
• 14:42
  Simon Baxter: So I've not been out with my camera for a good few weeks now because I've been busy with so many other things at home.
• 14:48
  Simon Baxter: But that's a good thing, that's healthy, because it means that when I get back into the woods it's like, oh, I'm so happy to be back.
• 14:57
  Simon Baxter: And then that rush of positivity and relief even if it doesn't turn into a photograph on that particular day, the chances are on that on that visit I'm going to be seeing things differently, I'm going to be having a fresh, positive outlook.
• 15:13
  Simon Baxter: Um, and that's the bit that I value the most, because I know that the photographs will come and it's having that.
• 15:20
  Simon Baxter: I think you need the experience to have confidence in the process, trust in the process and be completely happy if you don't make a photograph.
• 15:30
  Matt Jacob: But it takes experience to have the confidence to know that they'll come when they're good and ready yeah, that's a really important thing to get across, especially to people who are just starting in the photography space.
• 15:43
  Matt Jacob: I think there's so much pressure to.
• 15:44
  Matt Jacob: I was speaking with a relative beginner earlier today and and they were just so caught up in every other photographer on instagram basically, and they were getting completely distracted on style than genre and um technique and completely forgetting about really where the voice comes from and how to, I guess, impart meaning in your work and if you know if that's really important to them, if that's what it kind of has to be if you want to take photography seriously.
• 16:15
  Matt Jacob: So tell me a little bit about you.
• 16:19
  Matt Jacob: Know, you touched upon why the woods mean woodland and that environment means so much to you.
• 16:24
  Matt Jacob: But really, where did this all come from?
• 16:28
  Matt Jacob: But, more importantly, how do you find those areas and those locations and a specific tree or specific set of trees and woods that actually mean something to you, mean something enough to get your camera and take a photo?
• 16:45
  Simon Baxter: yeah, it's.
• 16:45
  Simon Baxter: It's interesting, isn't it?
• 16:46
  Simon Baxter: Because what the places actually mean something to me photographically, it's shifted and it's evolved with with time and I can definitely see that now, and it's another one of these things which you don't, you don't realize it until you do, and then when you do, it just completely transforms the way that you move, you move forward.
• 17:08
  Simon Baxter: So obviously it all started out, and the start of it obviously was was going out with Megan and finding the therapeutic power and restorative power of the woods and that's what got me kind of addicted to it.
• 17:20
  Simon Baxter: But then, with time, the things that have influenced is actually my direction, is actually understanding what you're photographing and, um, whether that be you know some ecological knowledge of what you're photographing, knowledge, knowledge of all the different species of trees, a little bit about what's growing in the understory, what happens with particular trees through the seasons, and then that all helps with the connection, because it's very difficult to be emotionally connected with something if you don't understand it.
• 17:56
  Simon Baxter: Understanding and knowledge has to come first and then, as a result of that, knowledge and understanding and knowledge has to come first and then, as a result of that knowledge and understanding, you start to, you start to care.
• 18:04
  Simon Baxter: That whole process got me to, you know, in love with oak trees, um, because they're so ecologically significant, um, you know, one of our most valuable trees in the uk, um, so then that kind of changed my view of things.
• 18:19
  Simon Baxter: It's not just a tree which looks fantastic, there's a whole lot of value in this and it's something that should be revered.
• 18:26
  Simon Baxter: Um, but then, as time's gone on, I've started to find locations which several years ago, I wouldn't have tried to photograph because they were just too difficult.
• 18:34
  Simon Baxter: But, going back to what I was saying before, I photograph them now precisely because they're difficult, they're incredibly complex.
• 18:42
  Simon Baxter: It's a challenge to make sense of them, but I love being there.
• 18:46
  Simon Baxter: So, yes, it's going to take me longer to make good images, but the fact is is that, whether I'm making a photograph or not, so long as I love being there, then that's the most important thing.
• 18:56
  Simon Baxter: But these locations that I'm photographing, you know know, some of them are private woodlands.
• 19:01
  Simon Baxter: A lot of them, um, you know, have open access, and it's literally just been a case of I look on some satellite images, I look in ordnance survey maps, um, I kind of figure out where something might be, um, with no prior knowledge as to, you know, has any other photographer been there?
• 19:22
  Simon Baxter: And you know if, if I can't find any photographic evidence of a woodland, then that's.
• 19:27
  Simon Baxter: That's exciting to me, because I want to find places where nobody else is going, you know, ideally, where you don't even get people walking through, um, because then it just feels like your own little sanctuary, and that's that's a bit of a privilege, to be honest, if you can find that.
• 19:43
  Simon Baxter: And I've been fortunate enough to find places which are privately owned and are being given allowed access to to go and photograph them as a place.
• 19:52
  Simon Baxter: But yeah, it's just a case of going for a walk after looking on mapping software and see what I find.
• 19:59
  Simon Baxter: Sometimes you don't find anything, um, and other times you're just blown away with what's being tucked away in a quiet corner of the north york malls, and and then it's some way you could get years and years worth of worth of work, um.
• 20:14
  Simon Baxter: Interestingly, though, I get lots of people asking me for you know where I've taken a particular photograph, and they'll say to me I don't have time.
• 20:22
  Simon Baxter: You know, I work full time, I've got a family.
• 20:24
  Simon Baxter: I do not have time to go and scout out locations like you do.
• 20:28
  Simon Baxter: I want to be told where places are, and I just have very, very strong beliefs on that and I think, well, what you're actually saying is you want to be productive when you go out, you want to make images.
• 20:44
  Simon Baxter: You do have time.
• 20:45
  Simon Baxter: If you've got time to go to the camera, you've got time to go and scout you just might, might not result on anything that particular day.
• 20:51
  Simon Baxter: And it comes back to the process, um, and I think, if you, if I think of what gives me the most satisfaction from start to finish.
• 20:58
  Simon Baxter: You know, I like this common thread of I've found a location, I found compositions and the location, I've worked it, I've tuned into the rhythms of that place, I've got to know it, I've tried day in, day out over the course of years, and then, ultimately, I get an image which represents that place and says everything that I wanted, you know, which speaks for that location and the trees that live there, and I've printed it and it's on the wall.
• 21:24
  Simon Baxter: And if I don't have one of those things, then that's okay.
• 21:29
  Simon Baxter: But one of the most important things is that it's somewhere that I found and it feels as if not that it belongs to me, but that I belong to the woods, if that makes sense.
• 21:42
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, it sounds there's a lot going on there and I really resonate with your, I guess, disagreement with those sentiments which are prevalent in most kind of hobbyists when it comes to photography, certainly those that are on social media and they think they just want to go out and get a nice shot come home Um, they're just kind of missing the point and, first of all, they get a shot that looks like everyone else's.
• 22:08
  Matt Jacob: Second of all, it just just means nothing.
• 22:10
  Matt Jacob: It's just a way for you to kind of either show off or maybe get some likes, or I don't know.
• 22:17
  Matt Jacob: It seems a bit vacuous, but you know, people say I'm pretentious because I say things like that.
• 22:22
  Matt Jacob: But I don't know, I think there's more to you know, there's going to be my kind of.
• 22:26
  Matt Jacob: The final thing I was going to add on top of that, or ask you on top of that, was, once you found this location and you've, you know it feels good to you aesthetically, then how do you kind of resonate with that specific location internally and kind of think, okay, this feels good to me, this feels like something I can, you know, get something out of metaphorically or in a meaningful sense?
• 22:53
  Simon Baxter: Yeah, I mean just to touch briefly on what you said about you know, being accused of being pretentious.
• 23:00
  Simon Baxter: Um, with that viewpoint, I think what it is is that what you've, you've experienced, what you feel is one of those magic ingredients, um and when and it's not that you you're preaching that, it's that actually.
• 23:16
  Simon Baxter: No, this, this is one of the most viable parts of the experience and that's what you're trying to share with people.
• 23:23
  Simon Baxter: You know, it's not pretentious at all and, if anything, we're saying to people no, no, this is brilliant, you need to go out and experience this yourself.
• 23:31
  Simon Baxter: You know, trust me on this.
• 23:33
  Simon Baxter: You know there's nothing better.
• 23:36
  Matt Jacob: It's difficult to translate that, though, isn't it Until you've actually experienced it?
• 23:40
  Matt Jacob: I tell people all the time.
• 23:41
  Matt Jacob: You know, if I think back in my history of photography and all of my favorite images, the favorite part is not the image.
• 23:50
  Matt Jacob: It's helped me get that image that I've spent time with.
• 23:54
  Matt Jacob: At the same time as getting that image, the image is always like the final five percent, yeah it's difficult to make people understand that, right?
• 24:08
  Matt Jacob: yes, because it's such a visual medium, they see that as the the one and only thing that matters exactly, yeah, exactly, and which kind of leads into.
• 24:19
  Simon Baxter: You know the, the.
• 24:20
  Simon Baxter: Your other question about you know how you find the meaning in a place and you know what it is that inspires that connection.
• 24:30
  Simon Baxter: And for me I don't go in and think.
• 24:35
  Simon Baxter: You know, my primary objective isn't let's go in and see if this has photographic potential.
• 24:41
  Simon Baxter: You know, usually you can get a sense of that straight away anyway.
• 24:45
  Simon Baxter: But it's really how do I feel when I walk into this place?
• 24:49
  Simon Baxter: Because if I walk in and there's obviously some photographs there, but I just feel as if it's lacking something, because you know you could go to, there's lots of woodlands, which are famous, full of wonderful trees, you know lots of photographic opportunities.
• 25:06
  Simon Baxter: But if I go in and there's lots of people around and you know there's people walking dogs, there's other photographers, there's all sorts of activity happening, I'm not interested.
• 25:17
  Simon Baxter: Not interested in the slightest.
• 25:18
  Simon Baxter: I'll I'll, I'll just walk.
• 25:20
  Simon Baxter: Even if I can get great photographs there, I don't care, because I'm the same yeah, it's just not the environment that you know, it's just part.
• 25:29
  Simon Baxter: Part of being in the woods is that it can feel, as it, like a completely different realm.
• 25:33
  Simon Baxter: You know it's like you get the border of the woodland and that's the threshold.
• 25:37
  Simon Baxter: You know you're stepping from one environment into another and everything changes.
• 25:41
  Simon Baxter: Life is different, wildlife is different.
• 25:43
  Simon Baxter: Like I was saying before, everything smells different and to fully appreciate that, um, I need, I need solitude, um, because other things, otherwise just things, become a distraction.
• 25:56
  Simon Baxter: The only things that I want to hear is the babble of the stream and you know the birds sing and that kind of thing.
• 26:02
  Simon Baxter: That's all part of the immersive experience.
• 26:05
  Simon Baxter: I I spent about six months of last year feeling quite um, unwell, um, and I had to go for you know, some tests and things, and I've gone for a test at the hospital and felt absolutely awful afterwards.
• 26:21
  Simon Baxter: But then two days after that I thought, right, I can't possibly sit around at home just waiting to feel better.
• 26:27
  Simon Baxter: So the first thing that I did was right, I need to find somewhere new, I need that kind of rush of finding a new woodland.
• 26:35
  Simon Baxter: So I put my hiking boots on camera over my shoulder, traveling very light, went for a hike, went to a woodland which I actually visited years ago and never really got to explore it properly because it was too overgrown and I was out walking with Adele, so it wasn't an ideal opportunity to dig a bit deeper.
• 26:56
  Simon Baxter: And I said to myself at the time I need to go.
• 27:00
  Matt Jacob: Adele is sorry.
• 27:01
  Simon Baxter: Sorry my partner, adele, yeah, um, and I promised myself that I would go back and I never did.
• 27:09
  Simon Baxter: But this seemed like the ideal opportunity years later to revisit and I walked in and I was just blown away.
• 27:16
  Simon Baxter: Um, it was a tiny location brimming with potential, um, but I think it's just, it was just one of those other moments.
• 27:27
  Simon Baxter: It just hit me because I was feeling bad physically and I went in.
• 27:31
  Simon Baxter: I was like, oh, my god, I can't believe that I haven't come back here all these years.
• 27:37
  Simon Baxter: But then also, that doesn't matter, because I'm here now and I was, I was, I saw so much potential there.
• 27:46
  Simon Baxter: I was just sort of overcome with emotion again.
• 27:49
  Simon Baxter: You know, I was kind of I almost cried because, like this is really, it's tiny, uh, oh, look, there's a deer wandering through and I've got all these wonderful oak trees and everything's gnarly, and it's just that feeling of discovery.
• 28:04
  Simon Baxter: It's something else and it, you know, and it plays into that sense of it kind of inspires a sense of childlike imagination.
• 28:13
  Simon Baxter: And you know when, everything's new, you know if you're, you know if you're a toddler introduced to the world, everything's fascinating.
• 28:23
  Simon Baxter: You look at things without prejudice.
• 28:25
  Simon Baxter: You know, one mundane thing is just as exciting as you know something else you know.
• 28:31
  Simon Baxter: And if you introduce a kid to nature for the very first time and you know you show them a worm, then everything's fantastic.
• 28:38
  Simon Baxter: It's like, oh my god, what's that thing wriggling around?
• 28:40
  Simon Baxter: And it's kind of like that because and that's that's the view that I think that really helps with woodland photography is looking at things without prejudice.
• 28:52
  Simon Baxter: And this is the issue with social media is that they're presented with, you're bombarded with images which have a particular style, have a particular species of tree, are representative of you know a particular place in, you know your country, um.
• 29:09
  Simon Baxter: So people end up going looking for that with this kind of blinkered view of what woodland photography is, whereas I think I benefit from going and say, well, that little thing there is just as important as that big fancy tree there.
• 29:22
  Simon Baxter: Everything has a part to play.
• 29:23
  Simon Baxter: So you've kind of got to shine a light on everything.
• 29:27
  Simon Baxter: And then the difficult thing is bringing all those elements together in something which you know makes a nice composition.
• 29:36
  Simon Baxter: But that's where the kind of fun part is, I guess.
• 29:40
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, I love the way most of that you didn't even talk about photography.
• 29:42
  Matt Jacob: It was more about discovery, the experience.
• 29:45
  Matt Jacob: That it was just.
• 29:46
  Matt Jacob: You know people, people don't talk about that enough, but a lot of people are too focused on their gear right and the settings, and which is obviously important.
• 29:54
  Matt Jacob: But you know, really, I think to step up to the next level and to actually add what this is all about is really a form of self-expression and self-fulfillment.
• 30:03
  Matt Jacob: It's getting that just the selfish kind of buzz from it right, finding how to get that buzz, and most of the time it doesn't come from setting your ISO or having a specific aperture speed or having a specific lens right.
• 30:17
  Matt Jacob: It comes from the experience and and finding out these, really noticing and observing those, those small details, and then figuring out ways to piece them together.
• 30:25
  Simon Baxter: So, yeah, I love yeah, I mean, I was, I was, I was very fortunate, you know, when you look back and what felt like an unfortunate set of circumstances and didn't feel good at the time actually did me the world of good.
• 30:38
  Matt Jacob: Because, tell me, a little bit more about that, especially in the mental health side.
• 30:43
  Matt Jacob: Um, because you know they're so related.
• 30:46
  Matt Jacob: You know the, the physical, and the, the mindful, so you know, interconnected with each other.
• 30:52
  Matt Jacob: I'm sure when you, you had such a chronic illness and chronic condition that you can't help but spiral into some kind of negative mood and whatever went on, which maybe you will or won't tell us about, but I'm interested to A know a little bit more about that if possible.
• 31:10
  Matt Jacob: And then how, if that's connected with a form of escapism, almost in kind of leaving home, getting out into the most solitary experience possible in terms of nature and people know people around and having that complete, complete, almost pure solitude, they're related to each other yeah, absolutely yeah it's.
• 31:35
  Simon Baxter: I remember before we, before we got meg, and I was out just doing my usual, you know, walk for 15 minutes around the streets and um, and it was.
• 31:48
  Simon Baxter: I remember going out.
• 31:49
  Simon Baxter: It was dark one night and I was, you know, I was I would just mope around and you know, with my knees really hurting and my back hurting.
• 31:59
  Simon Baxter: And I remember looking down this dark path which wasn't lit, and it's just one of those things like it was really weird.
• 32:06
  Simon Baxter: I don't, I don't think I've ever told this story because it just seems like a really strange thing.
• 32:11
  Simon Baxter: But I just looked down this dark path and it's logically, you just wouldn't walk down because it just doesn't feel safe.
• 32:19
  Simon Baxter: You know, it's like why would you walk down this dark path?
• 32:21
  Simon Baxter: You don't know what's, what's down there, um, and I never would walk down a dark path like that.
• 32:26
  Simon Baxter: But then I was looking, thinking actually I don't care what happens, you know when I go down here yeah, yeah, I think I'm just saying I'm gonna go walk down here and I don't care what happens.
• 32:37
  Simon Baxter: I know logically nothing's going to happen, but logically you wouldn't normally walk down there either, but you know.
• 32:45
  Simon Baxter: But so in that moment I thought it seems like a strange thing now, but in the moment I just thought, well, something's not right there.
• 32:56
  Simon Baxter: You know to have that sort of feeling, of going down, wanting to walk down this path and not care what happens.
• 33:01
  Simon Baxter: I knew that.
• 33:02
  Simon Baxter: I knew that that was a bit, a bit strange and that, you know, there was probably more going on in my head than than than I realized.
• 33:10
  Simon Baxter: Um, so, um, yeah, it was, it was.
• 33:14
  Simon Baxter: I don't it's very difficult to articulate because when, when you, um, I don't it's very difficult to articulate, because when you, when you, when you go into the woods, um, and you've discovered something which makes you feel fantastic, or well, not fantastic, but helps you process, um, you know those more negative thoughts and it just kind of it just hushes them a little bit.
• 33:33
  Simon Baxter: You know they're not at the forefront anymore, they just become a little bit more settled, um, and then, the more you expose yourself to those positive environments and positive feelings, then those negative things just get sort of pushed further, further down, but not pushed and buried, they're just kind of dispersed and they slowly just fade away over years.
• 33:55
  Simon Baxter: Um, and you know, recognizing that is just it's.
• 34:02
  Simon Baxter: It's done me wonders creatively, because, like we've just been talking about, it meant that the primary focus for me yes, it was to make photographs as well, but it was just about trying to get myself sorted out mentally and and physically, and and I think, when, when you recognize that nature has such that, such a profound power to, to heal you in that way, the photo, the objective of the of the photography, wasn't to, you know, gain a huge following and financial success.
• 34:38
  Simon Baxter: The objective of the photography was to celebrate something, was to say, look, I have to do this justice.
• 34:46
  Simon Baxter: If something's made me, helped me, in such a way, then I have to share with the world my view of it.
• 34:52
  Simon Baxter: Um, but doing such.
• 34:54
  Simon Baxter: I am a perfectionist, that's, that's just who I am.
• 34:57
  Simon Baxter: Um, you know some people hate me for it, but I'll never apologize for it because it's done me a lot of good being meticulous with things.
• 35:07
  Simon Baxter: So it became a mission to do this justice.
• 35:12
  Simon Baxter: I have to present Woodland in a way which isn't just about the kind of more conventionally pretty and I think it's kind of where I'm moving more these days as well is like you know it.
• 35:25
  Simon Baxter: It started out as here's a wonderful tree or here's a here's a dead, gnarly, struggling tree, because that's how I felt at the time, and then then it became, evolved into more you know, positive interpretations of woodland and trees, and now it's more about.
• 35:42
  Simon Baxter: You know, the woodland is about so much more than interest in trees and I think you know that's what I want to sort of speak for really, and again, it's doing justice to everything that makes a woodland special, which is more than single trees.
• 35:58
  Simon Baxter: It's about community, it's about the health of the woodland.
• 36:02
  Simon Baxter: It's about, you know, falling, decomposing trees has been a positive thing, you know, as part of the the life cycle of a healthy woodland.
• 36:11
  Simon Baxter: Um, you know, it's not people, photographers seem to love decay.
• 36:15
  Simon Baxter: I used to see that as a as a negative, negative thing, whereas now it's like no, that's, that's an important part of a woodland's life cycle.
• 36:25
  Simon Baxter: So it's just the small interpretations and the small nuances and shifts in my own view of the things are very difficult to see in the photographs, but they're there and so long as it kind of gives you structure and, um, you know, a way to proceed, know with with projects and your work in general, then it can only be a good thing absolutely.
• 36:48
  Matt Jacob: And finding those allegories, I guess, and metaphors amongst the woodland that are subtle and nuanced and that may be only seen by yourself.
• 36:59
  Matt Jacob: It doesn't really matter.
• 37:01
  Matt Jacob: We can't, we matter.
• 37:04
  Matt Jacob: We're constantly, as a human race, we're trying to strive for validation, right, and that means trying to get someone else to see what we see.
• 37:11
  Matt Jacob: I need to convince you of what I see and so on and so forth.
• 37:15
  Matt Jacob: There is a lot of equanimity to be found in just settling with.
• 37:20
  Matt Jacob: This is just what I see and this is what I feel, and you know I'm okay with that.
• 37:25
  Simon Baxter: I'm I'm present and you know, happy and and peaceful within that yeah, that own self-expression, right, yeah, and um, um, sort of touching on which I probably didn't answer very well because I go off on a tangent, but you know you're talking about, um, escapism as as well, um, and sort of seeking that pure solitude, and you know that was that was part of the problem with, and it's the issue with, chronic, chronic pain as well.
• 37:53
  Simon Baxter: Um, is that it's, it's invisible.
• 37:56
  Simon Baxter: You know nobody else can see it.
• 37:59
  Simon Baxter: You know, if it looks to everybody, else I'm just able to walk and I'm able to get out the camera, then you must be fine, um, but that's that's.
• 38:07
  Simon Baxter: The problem is that it's.
• 38:08
  Simon Baxter: You do look fine, um, apart from when you know you get your back goes into spasm, but other than that's when you get all the sympathy, then when you can't walk properly, but it's the rest of the time when you're in this state of pain but nobody else can see it, and that's the worst thing about that was that you end up becoming quite insular, um, you know, certainly in the early days, and you think, oh well, you know, no, nobody understands it.
• 38:37
  Simon Baxter: So you end up removing yourself from social, social situations and you don't want to be around people anymore because you shouldn't expect them to understand it, but I didn't even understand it at the time.
• 38:51
  Simon Baxter: So that's why I ended up spending so much time on my own.
• 38:54
  Simon Baxter: But I was kind of content with that.
• 38:55
  Simon Baxter: You know, I wanted to be on my own in the woods, just just me and me and meg, and it was it.
• 39:01
  Simon Baxter: It was escapism.
• 39:02
  Simon Baxter: But I think the thing is is that I felt as if I needed to process how I was feeling and be, find a way, you know, feel as if I was making progress, because I thought I don't.
• 39:15
  Simon Baxter: I'm no good to be around people anyway right now.
• 39:17
  Simon Baxter: You know, I don't feel as if I'm good company around people.
• 39:22
  Simon Baxter: Anyway, right now, you know, I don't feel as if I'm good company.
• 39:24
  Simon Baxter: So when I feel if I get myself into a better place, then I'll start to socialize again.
• 39:27
  Simon Baxter: But as far as solitude in the woods is concerned, that's remained a constant.
• 39:33
  Simon Baxter: You know, it doesn't matter how happy or content I am or how much I'm seeing friends.
• 39:37
  Simon Baxter: I always want to be in the woods and sometimes I do go and enjoy photography with friends.
• 39:42
  Simon Baxter: Um, but what tends to happen as soon as we walk into the woods like hi, see you in a few hours, yeah, no it's kind of up at the pub later.
• 39:53
  Simon Baxter: Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, but uh, until then, leave me alone.
• 39:56
  Matt Jacob: Um and isn't nature a wonderful drug for that?
• 40:07
  Matt Jacob: Or maybe not drug, a wonderful, um, you know, cure for that?
• 40:09
  Matt Jacob: Or at least, um, what am I trying to say?
• 40:11
  Matt Jacob: Um, a wonderful yeah, I guess, drug to to to help with almost that need and that want to kind of reconnect with something right.
• 40:21
  Matt Jacob: To get me, you know, I was gonna say find yourself, but that's, you know, too cheesy and cliche, but just to go and process, right, we're so, and we talked about this off air, but there's so much, just everywhere, and everything you know, we don't know how to be bored anymore, we don't know how to be at one with nature anymore.
• 40:39
  Matt Jacob: We're not only decimating nature, we just don't know how to, we don't really care to connect with it anymore.
• 40:44
  Matt Jacob: We're just so, you know, we're just so distracted in a world of abundance.
• 40:49
  Matt Jacob: Um, it's, it's often those detractions from, from normal daily life that can really help us see that perspective of gain a wider perspective, but also appreciate the world around us is.
• 41:04
  Matt Jacob: Is that kind of zest for nature something you think about and and kind of try and pursue the education side of it in terms of, okay, photography is one thing, but hey, guys, we need to be appreciating nature more, do you not see?
• 41:18
  Simon Baxter: it like that yeah, a hundred percent, and um, it's why I went whenever possible, because I'm not an expert, um, but whenever I can, I try to impart some knowledge through my videos about trees, about woodland, about, you know, this particular, this is what this particular lichen is and this is why it's important.
• 41:39
  Simon Baxter: You know this.
• 41:40
  Simon Baxter: This is what this, you know this algae is called.
• 41:43
  Simon Baxter: Or you know, this fern looks like this because of this blah, blah, blah, um.
• 41:48
  Simon Baxter: Or you know, I'm photographing an ancient oak tree.
• 41:50
  Simon Baxter: But what is an ancient oak tree?
• 41:52
  Simon Baxter: How old does it have to be to be ancient?
• 41:54
  Simon Baxter: Um, what signs to look out for?
• 41:56
  Simon Baxter: Why is that important?
• 41:57
  Simon Baxter: You know what wildlife benefits from these particular trees?
• 42:02
  Simon Baxter: Um, and I think the thing is it's, it's once you start down that path, it is never ending and it just I think that's the thing it's.
• 42:13
  Simon Baxter: It's about, it's about respect and it's about fascination and curiosity.
• 42:18
  Simon Baxter: And I, you know, I've done videos with a couple of different ecologists and whenever I do that, I I just think, wow, you know, you're a fountain of knowledge.
• 42:29
  Simon Baxter: I know nothing compared to you, but then they don't see themselves as a fountain of knowledge, they see themselves as knowing very little as well, and it just shows that there's so much life but not as much life going on as there should be in our woodlands, but every little detail.
• 42:49
  Simon Baxter: There's so much going on beneath our feet.
• 42:51
  Simon Baxter: You know the world of mycelium and the way that trees communicate with one another and all the theories that surround that.
• 42:58
  Simon Baxter: I found that very inspiring and a kind of source of direction for my own work as well, um, but then somebody will give me some crazy fact, um about.
• 43:08
  Simon Baxter: You know something that a very niche species that requires all these different cycles of events to be able to exist and you just think that's.
• 43:18
  Simon Baxter: That's crazy.
• 43:19
  Simon Baxter: You know, just think the abundance and complexity of things that surround this one particular tree or this one little area of dirt, and it again, it kind of promotes you to slow down and just spend time with something, and the more you understand something and the more you can appreciate all those different life cycles, you don't no longer look at an oak tree as a subject and that's the worst thing to do, I think.
• 43:44
  Simon Baxter: You know to look at any tree is merely a photographic subject.
• 43:48
  Simon Baxter: You know, these are living documents of time with so many complex things going around them that if you just spend time you know, if you've got an old, ancient tree with holes in it, stick your head inside, just see what's going on, explore it from different angles.
• 44:09
  Simon Baxter: You know, be curious and curiosity is one of the best tools we can take into nature.
• 44:14
  Simon Baxter: You know, touch things so the feel, get an understanding of why the bark is like that.
• 44:20
  Simon Baxter: Um, and in that process of fascination and curiosity, the chances are you're going to then set up eyes upon the best possible composition to best represent how special that particular tree or series of trees or scene of trees is.
• 44:40
  Simon Baxter: Um, and that's that's what it's about really is saying.
• 44:44
  Simon Baxter: You know, this is just a wonderful, beautiful, complex thing.
• 44:47
  Simon Baxter: Um, here is my best possible representation of it and I hope you can, you know, appreciate this, you know, through my eyes tell us about the um, business side of photography.
• 45:01
  Matt Jacob: We talked about almost the philosophy behind it and I'm glad you talked a little bit there about how other photographers can kind of learn to have the eyes to notice, you know, the quiet details and the emotional cues that might make up your composition or the, the allegories behind what you're trying to photograph.
• 45:20
  Matt Jacob: So I think that's a really important part, obviously, to slow down, you know, and that just by slowing down will allow you to notice a little bit more.
• 45:30
  Matt Jacob: But be curious, I think.
• 45:31
  Matt Jacob: Be curious in all forms of life.
• 45:34
  Matt Jacob: I think a lot of us have lost that desire to be curious.
• 45:37
  Matt Jacob: But, that being said, you know, tell me about.
• 45:40
  Matt Jacob: I'm curious in how you translate these types of experiences into paying your electric every month and, you know, making a business model out of your photography.
• 45:53
  Matt Jacob: So give us a.
• 45:54
  Matt Jacob: I have a kind of a general, kind of objective viewpoint from from external, the, the external standpoint, but tell us all the, the, the insider knowledge of how you successfully create a sustainable business model amount around this type of photography yeah, it's, it's not, it's not easy, but I don't know, because it's very it's difficult talking about it.
• 46:18
  Simon Baxter: It's difficult talking about this because it feels as if you're in a position of privilege in a way, because it's like well, it's worked for you.
• 46:26
  Simon Baxter: That doesn't mean it's going to work for me, but I remember so my friend, thomas Heaton, who has a huge YouTube channel.
• 46:38
  Simon Baxter: I became friends with him back in the early days when he'd only done about six videos, something like that.
• 46:46
  Simon Baxter: And you know, we went out and we did some photography together and he said oh, you know you.
• 46:51
  Simon Baxter: He said, people will love to see your work.
• 46:53
  Simon Baxter: You should start a youtube channel.
• 46:56
  Simon Baxter: I was like, okay, yeah, I could definitely think about that, you know, because it was at a time where my website development business was failing you know we've not been able to spend time at the desk and he said but don't pigeonhole yourself to woodland photography.
• 47:10
  Simon Baxter: People want to see a whole variety of things.
• 47:13
  Simon Baxter: And then that started to ring alarm bells with me.
• 47:17
  Simon Baxter: I thought, no, this woodland photography is what I love, it's what I know, it's where I've got a voice.
• 47:24
  Simon Baxter: I can't imagine talking about street photography or whatever or something else.
• 47:30
  Simon Baxter: Um, because that would just feel a bit contrived.
• 47:34
  Simon Baxter: You know I've got to go with where my heart is.
• 47:36
  Simon Baxter: So, uh, that's what I did, and I went to a local woodland.
• 47:42
  Simon Baxter: I mean a practice to start with.
• 47:43
  Simon Baxter: You know, I was going out in the woods recording myself on the mobile phone, cringing afterwards with how horrendous it was yeah, as we do, yeah yeah, yeah and um, but then you know, eventually plucked up the courage, made a video and you know, at the moment, at that particular time, it was as best, it was the best it could possibly be at that time for the first video.
• 48:03
  Simon Baxter: But again, traction straight away.
• 48:06
  Simon Baxter: I was just fortunate that at the time there wasn't loads of people nowhere near as many people on YouTube now as what there is now talking about photography.
• 48:15
  Simon Baxter: Because it was like nine years ago or something like that.
• 48:18
  Simon Baxter: Because it was like nine years ago or something like that, and there was nobody else specifically talking about woodland photography, um, and I was anthropomorphizing trees and nobody was on youtube talking about that either and it just sort of I was just very fortunate that.
• 48:37
  Simon Baxter: I mean, to me it was just like this is what I do.
• 48:39
  Simon Baxter: This is just me in the local woods with my dog, anthropomorphizing trees and getting excited by it.
• 48:45
  Simon Baxter: Um, and that's just what I did.
• 48:47
  Simon Baxter: It was just recording a typical day and it.
• 48:50
  Simon Baxter: People loved it, um, and I was.
• 48:53
  Simon Baxter: I remember putting the video out and then we went on holiday to the late district and it was over christmas time.
• 48:58
  Simon Baxter: I think I just couldn't believe it.
• 49:02
  Simon Baxter: You know, we were sat there in a holiday cottage and all these comments were coming through and I got something like 4,000 subscribers just from that first video.
• 49:09
  Simon Baxter: Wow and it's still my most viewed video.
• 49:12
  Simon Baxter: I've never had a video like it since.
• 49:14
  Simon Baxter: And that it, you know, and it kind of grew from there, but very, very slowly, because people say, right now you need to do a weekly video.
• 49:22
  Simon Baxter: And it kind of grew from there, but very, very slowly, because people say, right now you need to do a weekly video, and it's like I can't, I can't do that, I can't.
• 49:26
  Simon Baxter: You know, physically I can't do a weekly video.
• 49:28
  Simon Baxter: So I just got you know, if I had been doing a weekly video for the past nine years, maybe my youtube channel would be huge, but something would have suffered in that process and it probably would have been me and my photography, um.
• 49:43
  Simon Baxter: So I've just kind of found a rhythm now where I put out a video as and when I'm ready to, um, and I try to make it thoughtful, um, and you know, rather than just going through the motions, and.
• 49:59
  Simon Baxter: And then I have my book, you know, and I'm should have a zine coming out soon and I've done workshops and that's what's provided the income.
• 50:08
  Simon Baxter: And, yeah, I do, I make next to no money from youtube whatsoever, you know.
• 50:14
  Simon Baxter: I've revenue almost non-existent, and because I just don't, you know, I'm not putting out videos every single week and not getting tens of thousands of views every single week.
• 50:22
  Simon Baxter: Um, so I just I don't know.
• 50:24
  Simon Baxter: I just I tried to treat it as a hobby, which is ridiculous because you know I have to pay the bills.
• 50:31
  Simon Baxter: But what I mean is I don't want to lose the sense of it being a hobby.
• 50:35
  Simon Baxter: I don't want to lose that magic of you know, I'm excited to go out with the camera.
• 50:40
  Simon Baxter: I love woodland photography more than I ever have, and that's me being genuine, whereas I think, if I'd been so bogged down in trying to get, you know, hundreds of thousands of subscribers on YouTube or, you know, to build on my Instagram following or to make as much money as I possibly could, I don't think that love would be there, because so many people I speak to say well, it's just a job for me.
• 51:02
  Simon Baxter: Now you know, I don't love it as much as I used to, and I just think that's a crying shame, because if you want your legacy to be the photography and your love of your subject matter and bodies of work that you stand the test of time and you want to be proud of, you know, then you have to protect the passion for photography, because if you lose that something's want to be proud of, you know, then you have to protect the passion for photography, because if you lose that, something's going to be lost in the end results and people will see it, you know, and certainly people who know what they're looking at will will see it as well, and I'd rather protect that than my legacy to be.
• 51:37
  Simon Baxter: Uh, he was the guy on youtube with 500 000 followers or whatever you know yeah, sean tucker yeah, yeah, but but he's another one, you know he's, he puts out, you know, very meaningful, thoughtful work and isn't pressurizing like once a month yeah, once, once a month, um, and he's fantastic, um, and he doesn't need to put out lots of videos because each one carries so much weight yeah, and the days are over of that.
• 52:11
  Matt Jacob: Anyway, in terms of making a significant income from social media whether it's youtube, instagram, linkedin, x, whatever might be able to pay for brand deals and add cents and all this kind of stuff you get some pocket money from it and you have to be top, top, top of your game, millions of followers to really like make a significant, sustainable income from it.
• 52:34
  Matt Jacob: But what it can do right is if you use it correctly as a tool.
• 52:39
  Matt Jacob: It can be used as a lead magnet almost, or a marketing tool in order to push people towards a product or a community or a podcast or a digital asset or your print store or workshops.
• 52:55
  Matt Jacob: So as long as people can see it like that.
• 52:58
  Matt Jacob: But if people go into it thinking they're going to basically sell out because I want to make money and be a social media star, it's just not going to happen.
• 53:07
  Matt Jacob: Um so, yeah, tell me about you know I think I mentioned print stores.
• 53:11
  Matt Jacob: I know you, you you love prints as much as I do.
• 53:15
  Matt Jacob: Is that still a big integral part of your process and if so, yes, absolutely yeah.
• 53:22
  Simon Baxter: Um, I love printing because it's that final stage in the process, isn't it?
• 53:26
  Simon Baxter: And it requires so much attention to to detail as well, and I love that kind of meticulous process of producing a nice print because it's the, it's that end of that process of celebration, isn't it you?
• 53:40
  Simon Baxter: You know you've you've celebrated the woods by making the photograph, um, you know it's, maybe it's attracted some attention online, but essentially, you know, when I, when I make a photograph, it's with a view to print, and a lot of photographs that I make now, um, they just get lost on.
• 53:59
  Simon Baxter: You know where my my biggest platform outside of youtube is is instagram, and sometimes I look at the photograph and just think you know, do we even want to post it on here?
• 54:09
  Simon Baxter: It's too small, um, no one.
• 54:11
  Simon Baxter: You know the chances are nobody's going to really spend any time with it.
• 54:14
  Simon Baxter: Why would you spend time with an image that's, you know, 1080 pixels wide?
• 54:19
  Simon Baxter: Um, so it's always with a view to to print, and there's just something very special about, you know, having something tactile and extremely rewarding if someone chooses to buy that print and put it up on their wall and they're this other side of the world, you know, that's wonderful, and particularly and particularly because these are anonymous images, they're not representative of a location, they're not reminding somebody of their holiday in Scotland or anything like that.
• 54:50
  Simon Baxter: It's something very personal and to be over woodland and trees that those people have never, ever seen.
• 54:58
  Simon Baxter: But they still want it on the wall and that's quite, quite precious really.
• 55:02
  Simon Baxter: Um.
• 55:03
  Simon Baxter: But also it teaches you a lot as a photographer.
• 55:05
  Simon Baxter: Teaches you a lot about texture, about color, about luminosity, um, and when you make your very first print, you realize just how dark your images were.
• 55:18
  Simon Baxter: Yeah, so, um, you know, somebody said to me once oh, your images look a lot brighter than they used to be.
• 55:24
  Simon Baxter: It's like, yeah, now they're kind of properly exposed because I'm printing them, but I have a new wall over here which is a magnetic wall, so I've been doing a bit of an office reverb recently.
• 55:37
  Simon Baxter: So now my printer's over there, I can make an image, make a print and pin it to my magnetic wall nice and easily, so I can sort of move those around, cool, and just live with it.
• 55:50
  Simon Baxter: Live with an image and just see how we respond to it as the days go by and if, if I look at it six months from now and I still feel great about it, then I know that's a good print and that's really one that I should perhaps try and sell or frame it and hang it.
• 56:07
  Simon Baxter: Hang it in our, in our own house.
• 56:10
  Matt Jacob: That's a really great method that a lot of people oh, I don't want to be ageist, well, it's certainly a lot of the younger generation they they photographed for posting social media.
• 56:22
  Matt Jacob: Right, that's generally the outlet, me included.
• 56:24
  Matt Jacob: I still print and I still take a lot of pride in website and, you know, sharing media kits, because I can, you know, curate and create story, uh, photo pairs that you can't really do as well with social media, plus all the other issues with sizes and resolutions and stuff like that.
• 56:41
  Matt Jacob: Um, it's a.
• 56:43
  Matt Jacob: That's a really nice way of thinking about photography that you know I'm going to print something out and if I still like it and if I'm still looking at it with curiosity and pride and fulfillment, whatever it might be, after a month, then I know it's something of of value and we just don't don't do that anymore.
• 57:00
  Matt Jacob: So, yeah, I might even do that myself.
• 57:03
  Simon Baxter: I like that approach, yeah, which is like people have different approaches to post-processing as well, don't they where?
• 57:09
  Simon Baxter: You know, I've got a friend who she doesn't post-process soon after making the photograph because she wants to detach herself from the experience so she can be entirely objective.
• 57:19
  Simon Baxter: I don't, I don't buy into that.
• 57:22
  Simon Baxter: I want to remember the experience, I want to feel the emotion.
• 57:25
  Simon Baxter: Still, you know, recall the moment when I process the image, because it inspires the direction I take with the processing.
• 57:33
  Simon Baxter: You know, I want the feeling of the moment to guide the direction.
• 57:38
  Simon Baxter: Um, but after I've done a quick edit, then it gets put away.
• 57:43
  Simon Baxter: Then I'll return to it some weeks later and say right now, objectively, is can something be different?
• 57:50
  Simon Baxter: Um, and that's really what.
• 57:52
  Simon Baxter: So you know, I'll print, print the image and still be very aware of the experience and the emotion.
• 57:58
  Simon Baxter: But then over time you do become more objective of it and the vast majority of the time something changes in the print be a minor, minor thing, yeah, but that's and some people think I'm absolutely bonkers like well, I can't tell the difference between those two prints.
• 58:15
  Simon Baxter: I was like, oh, yeah, that one's like a tiny bit brighter, like well, does it matter?
• 58:19
  Simon Baxter: Yeah, of course it does, it's perfectionist.
• 58:23
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, yeah.
• 58:24
  Matt Jacob: What's the point of doing it if you're not striving for, for?
• 58:26
  Simon Baxter: perfection, yeah, exactly yeah, and it's.
• 58:28
  Simon Baxter: It's just, it never will be perfect.
• 58:30
  Simon Baxter: But I just think tiny, tiny, the sum of the tiny changes make all the difference, and that's what editing is for me it's tiny, tiny changes which look like nothing, but the some of those parts make make all the difference um, we talked a little bit about, um, your process and the end result being quite important to you is is, I mean, I guess, in an individual basis with each image.
• 58:57
  Matt Jacob: We've kind of talked about how you might realize if an image is successful or good enough for you.
• 59:01
  Matt Jacob: But generally speaking, over your photography world, do you think about that word success much and if so, how do you define it?
• 59:13
  Simon Baxter: yeah, I used to get hung up on wanting to be validated, you know, and wanting to my work to be admired by my peers, so I used to get sort of quite hung up on that, just like, you know, we it's.
• 59:28
  Simon Baxter: It's that stands to confidence, so isn't it?
• 59:30
  Simon Baxter: I think you know I wasn't seeking um prayers, I just wanted to feel, I wanted to know if I was heading in the right direction, and that was an important part of the process actually was getting to the point where I actually had confidence in in what I was doing, because I felt as if there was something there.
• 59:52
  Simon Baxter: I felt as if I was making nice images, but I didn't know why or how or what good composition was, and I think it was in 2016.
• 1:00:03
  Simon Baxter: I had a bit of a moment where I suddenly became more confident in the images that I was producing, and then what other people and then, over time, what other people think of them has become less and less important.
• 1:00:16
  Simon Baxter: But of course, you know you want to get to a point where you feel as if other people like what you're doing.
• 1:00:23
  Simon Baxter: You know, because part of what we're doing as well is is sharing.
• 1:00:26
  Simon Baxter: But if what you're sharing nobody likes, uh, it sort of feels like a bit of a sort of futile endeavor.
• 1:00:34
  Simon Baxter: But, um, yeah, I think with now there's some people won't necessarily like the direction I take with some of my images, um, but it's confidence that allows me to be, you know, to care about that a little bit less.
• 1:00:52
  Simon Baxter: Um, because if I feel as if it's representing something that's important to me and that I think has value moving forward, and when it's because, as it's, I've taken some images now as standalone images, they're not going to get any real attention if I post them on instagram, um, but having done some publications now and seeing the benefit of, you know, curating images and presenting them as a body of work that's what I'm more conscious about now is, okay, you might not have liked that image on its own, but here's a zine or here's a book or here's a, here's a box set, now I feel as if it, if it makes sense and and that's kind of what I aim for, and then, hopefully, as a collection, as a cohesive collection, that's what people kind of enjoy.
• 1:01:44
  Matt Jacob: Absolutely.
• 1:01:44
  Matt Jacob: And you talk about people, what people enjoy in getting your work out there, and we've talked a lot about the opposite of kind of shying away from people and being solitary.
• 1:01:54
  Matt Jacob: But you've kind of combined all of this into the 617 Club and the tell us about.
• 1:02:00
  Matt Jacob: Tell us about that, tell us about the communal side of simon yeah, the begrudgingly communal side of it.
• 1:02:09
  Simon Baxter: no, it's not um.
• 1:02:11
  Simon Baxter: No, that's.
• 1:02:12
  Simon Baxter: That's a bit it's been.
• 1:02:13
  Simon Baxter: It's been entirely positive, actually, and it's good for me because, essentially, as much as I like solitude and I need that from a photography people are extremely important in the process as well, and now I put a lot more value into that than I used to, because I think when I started to realize that actually was in 2022, um, because I think when I started to realize that actually it was in 2022, um, when I started to feel significantly better physically and I did an exhibition with Joe Cornish called uh, uh, woodland Sanctuary.
• 1:02:49
  Simon Baxter: So I worked very, very closely with Joe um to produce this, this exhibition, and it was just a wonderful experience to kind of share, know the love of nature with, with somebody else and to just have those conversations and you know, and have a sounding board and bounce ideas off somebody else, and then the end result was much better than if it had just been either one of us on our own.
• 1:03:14
  Simon Baxter: That's when that was kind of really the thing that made me realize that actually sometimes working with people is extremely valuable and the whole thing of collaboration, um on a creative project, um.
• 1:03:28
  Simon Baxter: But then tom and I have been looking for, um, probably the past three years or more, doing some sort of venture together.
• 1:03:35
  Simon Baxter: We wanted to do something which was yes, it was, it was a business decision and it was something that we, you know, we wanted to earn money from, but in a way that took some pressure off, so that, you know, it didn't mean that it was a way of earning money, but in a way that would still allow us to go out and pursue photography in a way that we'd like to, and that that's what the community is about really.
• 1:03:59
  Simon Baxter: It's about creating a safe space for everybody else.
• 1:04:01
  Simon Baxter: So, you know, there's the benefits of social media, but none of the pitfalls, you know.
• 1:04:09
  Simon Baxter: So we don't have trolls, you know, and we don't have algorithms and all the stuff that gets in the way, and we don't have algorithms and all the stuff that gets in the way.
• 1:04:21
  Simon Baxter: You know it's it's a smaller number of people, but it's a good, close-knit group so that people can feel safe and they can engage better with posts.
• 1:04:27
  Simon Baxter: It's not just a case of scrolling through and double tapping.
• 1:04:30
  Simon Baxter: It's reading, it's replying, it's starting a conversation, um and for.
• 1:04:35
  Simon Baxter: That's great, and we do like a live stream every single week as well.
• 1:04:40
  Simon Baxter: Actually, we've got two a week now.
• 1:04:41
  Simon Baxter: So that's a great opportunity to engage with the community as well, and they can type comments as we're talking and you know, we have a bit of a bit of a laugh with it and photo challenges and just stuff that gets people involved but also meet up so that people can, you know, meet people in person.
• 1:05:00
  Simon Baxter: And a lot, a lot of people, you know, are very different to me and they're striving, you know, they're really seeking that personal connection with people.
• 1:05:07
  Simon Baxter: They like photography, but they would prefer to be doing it with somebody else.
• 1:05:11
  Simon Baxter: So we're trying to create a platform where it gives them, you know, the vehicle and we try and sort of spearhead this as well to get people to have their own meetups, which they can organize through the 617 Club, and then we have the official ones where we can all get together.
• 1:05:27
  Simon Baxter: But, yeah, it's about creating a real friends as well and I do genuinely love the meetups and meeting people and it's very exciting and it's a bit of an adrenaline rush.
• 1:05:41
  Simon Baxter: Then afterwards it's like, okay, that was fantastic, but I want to be on my own again now.
• 1:05:46
  Simon Baxter: You know, I kind of re-energize by being out in the woods and that kind of gets me back onto an even keel.
• 1:06:00
  Simon Baxter: But I do love those kind of communal meetups as a short burst.
• 1:06:02
  Simon Baxter: It's like visiting the capital city.
• 1:06:05
  Simon Baxter: It's like, oh wow, this is all very fascinating and novel.
• 1:06:08
  Simon Baxter: But after two days that was good, but get me out now.
• 1:06:12
  Matt Jacob: I was going to say it's like seeing your parents.
• 1:06:13
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, enough One day's parents.
• 1:06:15
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's that.
• 1:06:16
  Matt Jacob: Enough One day's enough.
• 1:06:17
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, yeah, um, so how do you?
• 1:06:20
  Matt Jacob: You know, we'll obviously link this in um, link your, your 617 club, as well as your own website and and YouTube channel, et cetera, in the description.
• 1:06:38
  Simon Baxter: People could just head to the 617.club, which gives more information, and then my website is baxterphotos.
• 1:06:42
  Simon Baxter: Where I've got my book is called Gathering Talent great.
• 1:06:48
  Matt Jacob: We'll encourage people to head over to all those platforms.
• 1:06:52
  Matt Jacob: Check them out, throw some money away.
• 1:06:54
  Matt Jacob: Keep supporting the solitary adventures into the woods yeah, well, if you want, I can.
• 1:07:00
  Simon Baxter: Um, I'll give you a like 10 discount code off my book.
• 1:07:03
  Simon Baxter: If that's great, yeah, we'll throw that in there absolutely, that'd be awesome.
• 1:07:07
  Matt Jacob: thank you very much, um, we'll leave with with one question and, going back to the woods, I want to hear about something, um, relative to your relationship with the natural world, that maybe you've never said publicly, but because maybe it feels a bit too vulnerable or strange, and I know I'm putting you on the spot here, but is there anything that you can think of that you think the audience might be interested to hear about?
• 1:07:38
  Simon Baxter: you know, if there's there's moments where you do feel vulnerable and you feel scared, um, and you feel as if, you know, the pressure's a bit too much.
• 1:07:44
  Simon Baxter: Or I know I've had, you know, moments where you know I've lost a friend through suicide and, um, you know, and difficulties with families and and that kind of thing, and I don't know there's, there's just something.
• 1:08:06
  Simon Baxter: Even just the process of actually driving to to the woods, um, and playing the right music in the car, it just puts you emotionally in a different place.
• 1:08:18
  Simon Baxter: And you know I can get emotional, just sort of visualizing what's about to happen.
• 1:08:25
  Simon Baxter: You know, as I'm driving there and when I think just of the profound effect that time with trees has had and it just sounds weird.
• 1:08:38
  Simon Baxter: It was not weird at all, but it sounds weird because you think of the person that you once were, where you would just think that somebody talking about trees in this way is like a bit la-di-da, um, but having now experienced it and lived, live, you know, lived it.
• 1:08:55
  Simon Baxter: And Having now experienced it and lived it and been altered in such a positive way by nature, then you can't sing its praises enough and you have to share that In that process you have to be vulnerable, because if you've been moved in such a way where you can stand in the woods and you know sob, then you know that's that's that's quite a powerful thing to you know, change your, you know fundamentally as a person, where that can actually happen, when you used to think that that would never happen.
• 1:09:31
  Simon Baxter: Um, so I think I think that's the thing is that you know, as as any person, whether you think you're strong and you can't be affected that way.
• 1:09:40
  Simon Baxter: You know if, if you're, if you're struggling, if you're stressed, if you've got difficulties, then I think you can find solace in, in nature of sharing.
• 1:09:58
  Simon Baxter: You know the whole process of sharing and being vulnerable, and I have talked about, you know, difficult things on on youtube in passing as well, and the real hope is that if that can encourage just at least one person to go and experience that and benefit from that in a very profound way, then that's that's job done, isn't it?
• 1:10:12
  Simon Baxter: Um?
• 1:10:13
  Matt Jacob: and that's why it's so important to talk about everything beyond the photograph, um, and everything that's wrapped up in the process and the experience of, of nature, um, and yeah, that's, that's it really I love it, what a great answer and, um, thank you for being open and articulate with kind of your thoughts behind how, how that process, how photography, how that environment and that interaction with nature has has essentially saved you right.
• 1:10:45
  Matt Jacob: And so you know, I hope, I'm sure actually, that even people listening to this, as well as the thousands that that watch your youtube videos, feel, um, feel just as inspired as I have and feel just as hopeful, maybe, to find something that works like that for them, whatever, mental or physical state they might be in the time.
• 1:11:08
  Matt Jacob: So thank you so much.
• 1:11:09
  Matt Jacob: Keep doing what you're doing Incredible work and we'll be watching from over here and hopefully I get to meet you in the woods.
• 1:11:15
  Matt Jacob: Maybe one day.
• 1:11:16
  Simon Baxter: That sounds weird, maybe I I won't.
• 1:11:18
  Simon Baxter: Yeah, yeah, not randomly by accident that would be weird, yeah yeah yeah, all right.
• 1:11:25
  Matt Jacob: Thanks so much for matt.
• 1:11:27
  Simon Baxter: Thank you for having me, it's been great.