Latest / Skin Anarchy / Navigating the Do’s and Don’t for Acne Prone Skin with Sofie Pavitt

Transcript

Navigating the Do’s and Don’t for Acne Prone Skin with Sofie Pavitt · Skin Anarchy

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of Skincare Anarchy.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: I am so excited for today's episode because I have been dying to chat with our guest who's here with us today and learn from her because I've seen her literally everywhere on uh socials.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm really excited to to dive in.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: And she also has her brand new line, which I'm super excited to chat about.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Sophie Pavitt.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um welcome to the show, Sophie.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so honored to host you.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for having me.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really happy to be here.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm really, really excited to host you.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: And like I said, you know, you're quite the buzz right now.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, rightfully so, because you know what you're doing with skin, you know, and I I love that.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to actually dive into that and ask you a bunch of questions I have, because I I feel like aestheticians, like from that perspective, you guys just know skin.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so interesting to whenever I interview a really pro esthetician, because you guys always tell me things I don't know.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, but before we get there, before we start there, I want to learn about you, if you don't mind, um, walking us down memory lane and telling us how you got into skincare and skin health, you know, overall.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I actually am from a fashion background.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've I always wanted to be a uh designer when I was growing up, which is funny.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'd make like clothes for my Barbie dolls.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: But weirdly enough, I was always around the beauty space.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Also, my parents owned a hair salon when I was younger.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's a very nostalgic feeling to me to be in a beauty space.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: My I always remember my grandma having her perm done at my the kitchen table.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: My mom would do it for her in in Wales.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: So like I've always loved the beauty space, but it was it wasn't ever something I thought I would fall into.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what happened was I uh graduated from college in 2004, which I'm like aging myself now, telling you that.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I moved immediately to the States from the UK to start working for Abercrombie and Fitch, and that was my first ever job.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: I was there three years in Ohio, moved to New York and started working for Michael Cors as one of his handbag designers.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: And part of my job then was to go to Seoul in Korea every 12 weeks, and I didn't find I was going, you know, maybe five times a year for a really long time.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, Korean skincare and skincare treatments are just amazing.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: This was before anyone in the UK uh US knew what a sheet mask was, you know.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like I would go over there and bring sheet masks back for people, and people would be like, What is this?
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is so weird.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you bringing it?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: I just you would also go into Sephora 15 years ago, and it was pri predominantly makeup, you know, it was about 60% makeup offering, 10% nails, 10% hair, 10% fragrance, and then the rest was kind of like a little afterthought of skincare.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Skincare was not responsible.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Right, I was really fascinated by skincare.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: I loved like the Korean approach of like treating skin almost as like a results-driven thing, instead of you know, you'd go for a facial in Korea, and they were like, Okay, well, we want to get you the best skin of your life, and you'd go for a facial in the States, and it would be more of a sensorial experience.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that really interested me.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: I went back to school while I was still working in fashion on the weekends to get my aesthetics license.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: I did not know what I was gonna do with it, but I knew I wanted to work within the beauty space.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I went to school, I learned about skin, and the thing that surprised me when I was in school was how much I fell in love with the actual physical aspect of it, which was doing facials.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: You have to do, I think it's 600 hours in aesthetics programs to get your aesthetics license.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: And and three months of that is actually working within like a clinic within schools.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: So when I when I hit that three months to do that, I was like, wow, I love doing these facials.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: This is so fun, and I love seeing the improvement from one treatment.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I graduated from school, I was still working in fashion, I was giving my friends facials on the weekends.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: I would rent a little room from a chiropractor, and I quickly became so busy with that that I was I was never seeing my husband.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: I was like working all week in fashion, still going to Seoul, going to Italy for work.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then on the weekends I was doing facials.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: So at one point, you know, like an a year into this, my husband's like, Well, what are you gonna do?
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: Are you gonna are you gonna stay in fashion?
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Or are you going to figure out this skincare situation?
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, my job in fashion was pretty, I was pretty high up at that point, you know.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: I had like a team and I was like really managing people, and I decided that I was gonna open up my books on facials for a month.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, if I'm gonna if I book 35 facials, I'm gonna quit my job.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I ended up booking 86.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, okay, I'm gonna just try it and see what happens.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: And thank God my husband was so supportive, you know.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I quit my job.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: It was really scary, and I knew I had to make it work.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I also got a job that same time frame at a dermatology center, and I still work there today.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: I work for a company called Center Aesthetic and Dermatology in Union Square in New York City.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: And what I love about it is it keeps me in a medical space.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: I see so much problematic skin.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: I learned so much about problematic skin in a in that medical setting.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: And what I was hired to do was to come in and work with patients who are seeing our doctor, getting an RX topical or a prescription, and then you know, deciding what skincare they should be doing, what treatments they should be doing alongside that medical uh assistance, you know.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: So so that was another light bulb moment for me.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, wow, these people are coming in, getting a prescription, and then they're not seeing the dorm for another three months.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: What are they doing within those three months?
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was like, well, they should be coming to see me for a facial and checking in and making sure that they're on the right path and their skin is clearing, or they're, you know, they're getting the results from the acne solution or periural dermatitis is clearing up and their or their rosacea is calming down.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it it it was always like more of a results-driven treatment for me.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was another old moment.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: I then started seeing patients from the DOM office in my studio for monthly maintenance in between their dome appointments.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: So you became like their go-to like person for yeah, maintenance.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's so cool.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so that kind of was the starting point for me being known, you know, this so like such a funny title, this acne whisperer title, but it's kind of stuck.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: Now we have a whole whole system in place.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: So so I have now a team of five aestheticians who work with me at our studio in New York City.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: When we start working with someone, chances are they're not going to a gym.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Or if they are, they've they've not seen the results because maybe their their home care is not, you know, working for them alongside the Rx Tropical.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: So what we usually do is have someone come in, we put them on a program, we do a treatment each month for four months, but then we're also checking in with them and making sure that their home care is working as well.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: We might get, you know, uh check-in photographs, but but ultimately our goal is to really see some change within four months on our routine.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: So you're approaching it like what you've learned, a true scientific approach and medical approach.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's that's really cool that you bridge that because as a consumer, I'll tell you right now, you know, when I first learned about facials and uh estheticians and stuff, I didn't understand the role in relation to a dermatologist.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: So like I always wondered that was this idea of uh actually what you just explained, you know, your process and what you've gone through to get to this point with having that dermatology experience and having that experience of seeing patients who are literally coming in with pathologies, you know, and then translating that into a daily maintenance way.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like it's not too separate, is my point, the world of aesthetics and the world of, you know, like dermatology and and actually seeing patients and that whole protocol that you go through.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really fascinating to me that you've kind of brought that over, you know, in a very cool way into being an aesthetician.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I think there's like sometimes a big disconnect between aesthetics and dermatology.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of the time we're pitched against each other.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I've never felt like that with dermatologists.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: I have a deep, deep respect for them.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, and you know, I think we can work really well together because yeah, if you go in for a derm appointment every three months, then it I see my role and my scope of practice to maintain your results in between those appointments.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you know what?
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: I won't lie.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: When I went, like I remember being 15 years old, going to the dermatologist, getting those antibiotics.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Back then I would have killed for somebody who was like, you know, uh an esthetician that was working in the germ office or in conjunction with, you know what I mean?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like that would have been a referral.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, that would have been freaking amazing.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of just, you know, you go because the derm experience, no, I mean, I'm a doctor myself.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: I understand how sterile the physician experience can be for a lot of people.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you don't feel like a connection where you're talking to a friend sometimes, you know, and I'm not saying it's just dermatology across the board, it's like that.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: I even hate the word using holistic.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think more so a referral to a more like personalized space, you know what I mean, as a as a follow-up is like absolutely critical in today's like integrated medicine lifestyle that we're trying to live.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, I wish that existed back when I was a teen because I would have loved that, you know.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, the reality is is like you and I both know like the gut, skin, biome axis connection between what we eat and where we work and it how stressed we are, what supplements we take.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: Are you pregnant?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Do you live in Miami versus New York?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: All these things have a massive part to play in your skin health.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's kind of my role, right?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Is to kind of do a little bit of detective work as well with these clients and be like, okay, what else is going on that might be breaking you out?
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: What what else is going on where you might have this inflammation within the skin, you know?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: So so it's it's fascinating.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's I love my job because every day is different, you know, everyone diversity is real, so it's great.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, I love that.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that you're doing what you're doing.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you for having such a cool approach to, you know, the way you're practicing your career and your your practice, because I I really believe that you know, integrated medicine is the future.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like I won't lie, like as a physician, I feel it.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of the colleagues I've interacted with feel it.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like it is the future.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: You have to have a holistic approach here with everything in the skin.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: What's so interesting is that the skin is such a dynamic organ, but it's also so resilient.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: As you know, Sophie, you know, it's like for everyone listening out there, like we all know like it takes a lot for your skin to actually like beyond certain pathologies and certain things that happen, like acne breakouts or like you know, whatever, it takes a lot to really damage your skin.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: Not having like that perspective of like the holistic understanding is doing a disservice to modern medicine, you know what I mean?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I really am a huge believer in that, and I think you're absolutely right in what you said, where aestheticians and dermatologists absolutely can coexist, you know what I mean, in very different but similar ways.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's absolutely I think that should be fundamental at this point, you know?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, huge fan of that.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: I I want to actually ask you though, because since you do have so much experience with acne, what were some of the most, maybe even earlier in your career, that you noticed were the most common things that were causing them?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Was it more dietary or was it really like the bacteria that causes acne?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what were you noticing was going on?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, do you think what's so interesting is like 40% of people are predisposed to acne in a genetic predisposition, which means that their skin is shedding at a faster rate than somebody who isn't predisposed to acne.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: And with that, you know, you get a lot of bed dead cells on the skin, you get that congestion within the pores.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: That won't break you out, but it sets the wheels in motion for things to go wrong.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have that predisposition, the two other key things that come into play with it are oil production and bacteria levels.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have an influx of oil which is more influenced by your environment, for example, cortisol levels will increase your oil production.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: If you eat androgenic foods like peanut butter, for example, that will raise your oil production.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Testosterone raises your oil production.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: If you have an influx of oil production into a congested pore, which is congested with dead skin cells, those two things combine and become a really sticky plug within that pore.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: That won't break you out, but that causes like a closed commodore, right?
• 12:54
  unknown: Yeah.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: The thing that breaks you out is the acne bacteria, which beats on dead skin and oil.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's his favorite thing to eat.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it's all a balancing act, you know.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you are predisposed to acne and you have an overshedding of skin cells in place, you're you're you shed more, then you should be exfoliating daily.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um using comedogenic ingredients within makeup or skincare or hair care or even laundry detergent with essential oils.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Those things can contribute to congestion within the skin.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Different supplements, you know, like thyroid medication, for example, is really high in iodine.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: Iodine increases oil production within the body.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um I didn't know that.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: But iodine.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so so there's there's lots of things that come into play.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: So when I first meet someone, that's kind of the first thing I ask is like, okay, did your parents ever have acne?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: Did you have an ant that had acne?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what's the family history?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because I want to figure out whether this is something they're predisposed to, or is it something more environmental, right?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: So another thing that is a huge thing that I see is that a lot of teenagers are put on birth control to bring down oil production, to calm acne.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: They decide to come off of it at the age of 26, 27, 28, you know, early 30s, they decide they don't they want to don't want to be on a birth control anymore.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then they have this massive influx of acne, and they're like, what the hell happened?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, well, why was that birth control is hiding the acne all these years, you know?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: So that can be stressful for people to to realize that that's always been there.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like, oh, now you have a menstrual cycle that raises your hormones up and down each month, and as a result, your oil production gets higher and lower, you know?
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: So education around that.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's really cool, and I love that.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that's the kind of education we need, though.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I feel like, you know, it's this interesting like understanding of the fact that there are um, you know, things that act in like very endocrine ways in the body, you know, like endocrinology is like obviously there, but then there's also other mechanisms, but that everything has a process, and that's the interesting part.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think, you know, with acne, it's cool that you've kind of concentrated in this area because everybody's acne is different too.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know if you agree with that statement, but I feel like everyone's acne is different in the sense that you don't know till you get a real profile on what's going on with you from a professional.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like somebody might have precocious puberty or something, you know, and you don't know that.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: But till you go in, you have to get analyzed from different lenses to figure out what is causing your actual breakouts and and how long they last and why they're coming out the way they are.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, for example, I had cystic acne, Sophie, you know, growing up, like as a teenager, and I was like absolutely lost.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why is my acne so different than that person's?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like it never comes to a whitehead, it never comes.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: So those were questions that I always had, and I think we still get those questions that are coming up, you know, even now, like every time I see Reddit, it's always there.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, getting that personalized profile is so, so critical.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I have a question then.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: If somebody comes to you and they are like, you know, they have a breakout and they're breaking out, how do you approach that person?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is your protocol for yourself going through and obviously history taking, but uh Yeah.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: So the first the first thing I do is like I'm I'm I want to know who this person is, right?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: Before I even like look at this skin, I'm like, okay, what do you do?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: What's your job?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, where do you live?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: How stressed are you?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: What do you like to eat?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like those are all questions I'll ask.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then and then also I'm analyzing the skin at the same time.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Do they have inflamed acne?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: Do they have non-inflamed acne?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: Do they have a combination of both?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Do they have subtype 2 rosacea, which is a type of acne?
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: What type of skin do they have is a huge, huge question that I think people they totally miss that, right?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: So when people are self-diagnosing with acne, what tends to happen is that they'll go and find what they think is an acne product, for example, salicylic acid, right?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a really dry person, salicylic acid is gonna do nothing but dry you out even further because it's really formulated for oil and oilier skin types.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: If you have really dry skin, you can have grade four cystic acne.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: You can be the oiliest person in the world and be clear as a bell, too.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not necessarily about having oily skin.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Acne can really strike on any type of skin.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: So looking at somebody and making sure, like, you know, figuring out, okay, are they an oily skin type?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Are they carbonation?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: Are they sensitive?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: Are they dry?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: That ultimately gives me a decision on how I'm going to treat it as much as the type of acne that they're dealing with, which is inflamed, non-inflamed, subtype two, all that kind of stuff.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really looking at both sides.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's also really important to hydrate the skin.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: So whatever actives I decide to choose for clearing that person, I also want to make sure all the other products I'm putting them on are really barrier supporting, hydrating, cushioning.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to put like a really intense active in every step of your product routine.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Which is another thing that I think people slip up with, you know, they want to have like a clarifying cleanser, exactly.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Acne treatment, spot treatment, an acne mask, you know, and then all of a sudden they've got like barrier issues with their skin, which is also gonna further create more acne.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: No, I was actually gonna ask you that is like, you know, if somebody comes to you with like a drier skin type and they're breaking out, like what is the treatment, the treatment that you recommend from like facial stance, you know, like or skincare?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because yeah, like I see this all the time, exactly what you described is like on you know, social media, somebody has super oily skin or something, and they're just bombarding it with like clay masks and you know what you were mentioning, spot treatments.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of crazy, but what if somebody has dry skin?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of people, um, recently I've seen this a lot, is that they're you know aging, but then they're also noticing my adult acne is not going away, you know.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, like what would you recommend?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: So many things.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, the first thing we do is to figure out whether they're dry because they're a dry skin type or they're dry because they're oversensitized and they've like dried themselves out.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's a huge, huge thing for me to decide.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the best things to do, like to figure out your actual skin type, one of the ways I tell my clients to do that is to wash your face, pat it dry, and leave it for an hour and then look in the mirror.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you're if your skin is feeling tight and you know you get that like dry tight feeling when you like smile.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Chances are you're a dry skin type.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: If you have a slight shine down the middle of your face, you might be combo.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're shiny all over, then chances are you're an oily skin type.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: But you can tell within that hour, without any product on your skin, what kind of what kind of skin you're dealing with.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Dry, first thing I would do is take them off all actives and put them on just a super hydrating, non-communogenic routine for two weeks, and then I would check in with them again, and then I would slowly start introducing an exfoliator.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: And exfoliating is the cornerstone of of my philosophy with acne.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think I believe that daily exfoliation is key if you are predisposed to acne.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I love that format.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: You need to do it, it works best under the guidance of a professional, whether it's a derm or an acetician, and you want to be able to find the right exfoliator for you.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now, one of my favorite exfoliating ingredients is mandalic acid.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And mandalic acid is a large molecule-sized alpha hydroxy acid.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what that means is it dissolves the bonds between dead skin and healthy skin underneath.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: But what else I love about it is it's also antibacterial, which helps with, you know, uh acne bacteria, see acnes.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's also brightening.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it's gonna help with any post-inflammatory erythema or hyperpigmentation that you might have from previous breakouts.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: I love it because my acne clients, who are usually quite sensitive, can use this every day.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's very gentle.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it's gonna slowly dissolve those bonds between dead cells and healthy skin underneath.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: That opens up those pores and it creates free flow within those pores.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: The oil has somewhere to go, it's not congesting, and then that bacteria doesn't have a food source.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, this is where I'm interested.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and I don't mean to interrupt you, but like I've heard this many times that glycolic acid, because it's an alpha hydroxy acid, like the smaller the acid, the better for like preventative measures for acne.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Is that true or is that not really necessary?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, my argument against glycolic is that glycolic is the smallest molecule size on alpha hydroxy acid scale, right?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: You have glycolic, you have lactic, and then you have things like mandalic pHs, which are even bigger.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: But the reason why pHs and mandalic acid is popular is because the molecule size is really large compared to a glycolic one.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Glycolic, if it's tiny, which is a tiny molecule, is going to penetrate the skin really fast.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna cause irritation.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: But also, if you have a darker skin tone, you have a higher Fitzpatrick.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: That can cause irritation.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, somebody with a darker skin tone, more melanated clients will work, it will work better for them to have something like Mandalic.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be less irritating.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to give you less likely to hyperpigment with using an acid daily.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the risk of barrier irritation and like sensitivity using glycolic every day, for me, Mandalic is the safer and more effective choice.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Low and slow, slow cooker.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: So what about spa treatment then?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Do you recommend like an exfoliating agent in spa treatment?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you think like what is spot treatment to you?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because it means so many different things.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like when I look at like, you know, products out here, I'm like, I'm confused, like what people mean by spot treatment.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a very personal philosophy around spot treating, which is if you spot treat, you're playing whack-a-mole.
• 22:50
  unknown: Yeah.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever played that game before?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Where you like hit one thing and then another thing pops up, and you hit that and another thing pops up.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it's like, okay, I want to get all of them at the same time.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, say a mandalic acid all over the face is going to be more preventative and more effective at clearing breakouts and maintaining the skin than just spot treating alone.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: And another argument for mandalic versus something like glycolic is because it's so gentle, you have room in your protocol and your routine to play with another couple of actives, right?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: If you're if you've got a glycolic every day, that's kind of like your your active bank spent.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: You can't you can't put much put much else in your routine without you getting irritated.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas if you've got a mandalic in place, I might say, okay, well, now if you've got like a big deep cystic pimple, or you have something really, you know, come up and it's hurting and it's and it feels like you need to treat it, you can put a sulfur on top of it.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe you have a little salicylic on top of it.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: I would have said 24 hours ago to put benzyl peroxide on it, but I'm sure you've been reading the news today about the benzyl peroxide scare that's happened in the last 24 hours.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I've always been actually personally allergic to benzyl peroxide, so I'm not surprised at all.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've been actually I've advocated against it for many years because of many reasons.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I feel like a lot of der medications, and this total side note, by the way, but for anyone listening out there, like I feel like a lot of dermatology medications that we have are very outdated options.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like you have to recognize that, you know.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but the the crazy thing is that I'm a huge proponent of benzoyl peroxide.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I think that it is a really effective, effective treatment for acne when applied in the correct way.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: And what tends to happen is that people overuse benzoyl peroxide, they leave it on overnight, it causes irritation, they put it on constantly.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas if you put it on as a mask and you leave it on for 20 minutes and wash it off, you're getting that short contact application.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think it can be very, very effective.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, this is again like new information that we have around benzoyl.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I also I also feel like I mean, this is my opinion too about benzoyl peroxide is that I feel like it's almost like treating something um with a nuke when you don't need to, you know.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like I feel like a lot of der like that.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's how I feel about like Accutane as well.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: I just feel like there's just too it's too aggressive, you know, for what you're treating.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: I don't personally like it for my routine, but I can definitely see you saying, you know, I in a controlled setting, you know, in a controlled way of doing it.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: But um I just I think that's also it amplifies, I think, your approach for me as a consumer, because I don't think that you always need the most drastic measure.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean, whether it's acne or not.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like even in like, you know, if you go to your cardiologist, they're not gonna recommend surgery as the first option.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, or like something invasive or something really extreme, like a drug that's just really extreme.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: They're not gonna do that.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like they're at some point we lost track of like this balancing act in the world of like, you know, skin health, because people want to go for these really extreme treatments.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like again, you know, we're talking about acids.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about peels, you know what I mean?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how many people do you know that have had an accident with peels because they're not going to somebody trained or you know, like they have no knowledge about it or that it's been recommended or whatever, you know?
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's like that.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: It just scares me, you know, because we're handling something that should be handled with such care in such a drastic way, you know, like one and done, like here's a treatment done, you know.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what I'm against.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we do so many peels at the studio, but we're professionals, you know.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: I also think that like there are some amazing peels on the market.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's just about making sure that you're not using them over and over and over again.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: I know I'd interrupted you and you were explaining mandelic acid.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I like uh that you mentioned how it is a bigger molecule.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: So one of my questions, I think, follow up for that is like when you are you're working with an active for drier skin, do you recommend just like intense moisture?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because I keep seeing that, like you need to increase your moisture levels by 400%, you know, if you have dry skin.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: I see stuff like that in marketing, and I just wonder, you know, how much moisturizer do you really need?
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, even if you do have dry skin.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a really interesting question.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the reality is, is like everyone needs to moisturize their skin, right?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Hyaluronic acid, for example, is like such a hot topic.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think hyaluronic acid is great and it most of the products that are there contain it in some level.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Do you need an additional hyaluronic acid within your routine?
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: Probably not, because chances are there's a hyaluronic acid in your moisturizer already, or a glycerin, or you know, a humantin of some sort.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that it's so nuanced and everybody is different.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like if your skin is dry, then you can ramp up your moisturizing.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: But if it's oily, you just need to make sure that it feels hydrated.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: I everyone's so different.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it's like if somebody's got acne and I have a client who is working with um, you know, a level of breakouts.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: My biggest thing is that I want to make sure that they are using non-cometogenic ingredients.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so what like what is non-cometogenic then?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's also like a buzzword, I feel like, and no one really understands um cruelly, you know, what is non-cometogenic.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now that is a loaded question.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's a hot topic because some people say, Oh, well, sometimes you know, you can use, for example, a coconut alkane in a formula, and the formula dictates how it's like, you know, established within that formula, and therefore it's nuanced, and maybe that that moisturizer won't break you out, which I agree with.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: But my philosophy at my studio with my clients and for my brand, in fact, is path of least resistance.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: If I can formulate a product or recommend a product with no commetogenic ingredients in it, it's the path of least resistance.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: My client is not going to get confused on what they can and can't use, and we're taking away that thing that might set them back.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: People argue about communogenic ingredients a lot with me.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: I understand that formula truly like determines whether something is comedogenic or not, and everyone is different.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: What breaks someone out breaks another person out, right?
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: I understand that.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, again, philosophy-wise, and just like the way the method I work with clients is like I want to take you off all cometogenic ingredients for my own for my own record.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, you want to bring down to baseline, right?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like you want like an understanding, yeah, makes sense.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, makes sense.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I I want to ask you your opinion about something uh that I'm very curious about because I I don't know how to feel about this, is the idea of aesthetic treatments and then coupling them with like, you know, going to get your regular facial.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: How do you feel about that in terms of what consumers should know and like how we should be approaching this, you know, in terms of a routine?
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I always tell my problematic clients, what I mean by problematic clients, not that they are problematic, but if they have problematic skin, we need to clear you and maintain you for at least three months before we do anything advanced.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: And like I said, I still work in a DOM office and I perform all those advanced treatments.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: I do everything except injectables in that space.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I can kind of determine whether that client is ready just from the work we've been doing at the studio with them.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's like kind of a nuanced thing.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: For example, I did a CO2 laser last week.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Should I get a facial this week?
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely not.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: My skin is pink as the piglet.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still really raw underneath that.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really important to have that communication with your facialist and your derm and make sure that everyone is aligned on what you're doing on a regular basis.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: I've definitely had clients show up at the derm office I work for a micro needling microneedling treatment, for example, and I've turned them away because they haven't stopped their retinal or they had a facial recently or they waxed their eyebrow.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like there's so many like things.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: I also don't touch anybody until they finished Accutane for at least six months.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that's another thing I really, you know, Accutane is so prevalent these days that everybody like it's so easily prescribed.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I tell people is if you're on Accutane, you should be not doing anything for at least six months after you finish it.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Your skin is fragile.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know what's crazy it's that you mentioned that because I had a friend, and this was back, you know.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: This is I'm obviously I've seen a lot of people with on Accutane, but like I remember the first time I ever saw someone that was on Accutane treatment was a good friend of mine again, high school, you know, and his face literally looked like like it cleared his acne, but it was just like you said, you could tell the skin was fragile, you know what I mean?
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: You could just tell, and it was like horrifying in a way because I was like, I hope to god you're not going in the sun or like you know, doing anything else because it's almost as if you're on bed rest after that, you know.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: I hate to be so drastic uh with my words, but this is what it feels like.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's such an intense, you know, process that you go through.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that makes sense that you wait six months.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's an amazing medication and it like changes people's lives, right?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not I'm not discrediting it at all, but I do think it is massively over-prescribed.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: And and I see some people who come in and they've, you know, they were like, Oh, I've been prescribed Accutane.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Why?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: Your skin is not that bad, like it's not cystic, like this is something we could absolutely maintain.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like the the harsh reality, unfortunately, is that if you are predisposed to acne, you are gonna have to maintain your skin because you are overshedding, and that's how your skin works.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's not something you can change, that's a consistent the variables are oil production and bacteria levels, you know.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it affects the way that your skin produces oil.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't, it never changes the fact that your skin oversheds.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that's I think that's where it's like so interesting, the education around getting regular maintenance facials done or getting any routine maintenance, even having a line at home, you know, of uh like a skincare regimen that you're following that might only be three steps, but you're doing everything you need to do to maintain that level of clearing out that shedding the best you can.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's where the education for me, like it just gets me that we're not sitting here talking about this more, you know.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's where I feel like the entire skincare industry is founded on this, these principles of like, yeah, like if you're, for example, like you take a shower, right, after you sweat.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: So like, why wouldn't you do something for your skin daily because your cells are always turning over?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: And especially, you know what this makes me cringe, Sophie, when I hear this.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, people tell me, you know, I'm on a retinol product, but then they won't do anything that's like a regular way to to naturally exfoliate their skin or like just get rid of that debris, you know, that cell turnover debris.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just like I don't know where that lack of communication was for them, you know what I mean, in terms of understanding, but I just feel like there's there needs to be a better protocol in place, you know, like if you're doing this or if you have this, go in these steps.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of my questions, actually, for you is that retinal aspect is like, when do you recommend that?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like for somebody who's dealing has dealt with acne or is currently dealing with acne.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: It could it could be argued that retinol creates dead cells.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: So if you are somebody who is predisposed to acne, you have a higher shed slash cell turnover rate anyway.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: Why would you put something on that accelerates your skin turnover?
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really great point.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: That is a really freaking great point.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's my philosophy, period, when it comes to retinals.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: Retinols are amazing.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: They're anti-aging, they're very cool, they thicken your dermis over time, they are amazing for fine lines and wrinkles.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: If you have acne, retinol is not the ingredient I would personally, personally put people on.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: I want to help them exfoliate first because I want to make sure that they're helping their body release those dead cells that are causing the acne breakouts.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: And if you add a retinol in too fast, it's like throwing gas on a barbecue.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: You just get more cell turnover.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's where the dreaded purge concept comes from.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: Your skin starts freaking out, right?
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: To me, it's like, okay, do you really want to go through this painful process of like ripping through like all your acne and purging and sparring?
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you want to go low and slow, start gently exfoliating every day with something like a mandalic acid, spark treating, or area treating with something like a benzyl peroxide.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then in six weeks' time, when your skin is really starting to behave itself, then you add a little retinol in, which helps maintain that skin alongside mandalic acid, which is going to help wipe away those excessive skin cells.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so like for me, retinol is never the first thing to put people on.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: I always tell people if they come to see me and they're on a retinol or they're on a tretinoin, I recommend that they come off of it.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's out of my scope to practice to say to somebody, come off of a medication.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I always say, This is how I work, and I can't work with you if you're on a retinol.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's not out of my scope to support that statement.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'd absolutely support you that because you're the first person, I'm not joking, I'm saying this on air, first person I've met that I can actually like feel like you get where I've been coming.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: I 100% agree with you.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just put it like that.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know why retinol is a freaking thing in this industry.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: I have never understood it.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because of exactly what you said, because most of the people that are shopping for skincare have acne or you've had acne, you're dealing with something that has to do with the excessive debris on your face.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Why would exactly everything you said?
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna rant about it, but I love that you believe that because I think it's one of the most over-prescribed.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we were talking about over-prescribed medications.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: It is the most over-prescribed prescription, in my opinion.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: And every day, I kid you not, Sophie, our emails get flooded with people asking about no, no, no, I don't want that recommendation for the antioxidant product.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell us something about a retinol product?
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, no, because I don't use it.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't use one.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't use a retinol in my everyday routine.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: I use antioxidants and you know, good exfoliators and I wash my face, simple things.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: I go to my esthetician, like that kind of stuff.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it has always blown my mind why we're so on this bandwagon of retinol, retinol, retin now, retinal.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just go straight like as close as we can get to this vitamin A situation, you know, like it's I don't get it.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's no denying that like retinol is something that people love, right?
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not, and I'm not I'm not coming for retinol, actually.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think it is like really powerful in the right application.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: And like there are retinol products out there that I personally really like, things like Medicaid and Skin Better, but like the the immediate jump to tretinoin and retinol as an acne solution is wrong.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like I actually disagree with that concept.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, there's lots on the market now that are literally tailored to acne, things like Altrano and a Cleaf, but but it's something that um yeah, I I find personally when I'm working with a client much more successful with an exfoliator and a true acne topical like a benzyl peroxide or a salacytic acid as well.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you so much for like giving light to that conversation.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like shining a light on that because that's just yeah, we need to re reunderstand, like go back through the education process about, in my opinion, vitamin A derivatives.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: We need to do that because when I see them in my practice, it's people who have leukemia.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's when it comes up.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people don't talk about vitamin A's role and stuff like bone cancers and stuff.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: Why we need to like reformulate the entire bone marrow, you know what I mean?
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like literally, why the hell are we doing it in a topical way?
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: Your skin is not designed to do, you know what I mean?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's like saying, here it is, here's a normal cell.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: Let me accelerate its normal cell cycle cell cycle process of what it does, normal physiological stuff.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, go off of that and go in the other direction.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and you're really actually, you know, I don't know.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: I have my own views on that.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: I could write about that for hours, but I I think it's a very fresh point of view what you shared, you know.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I agree.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: And and in terms of, you know, other things that sensitize your skin, you know, I think inflamma aging is a huge conversation right now.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're I'm I'm sure you've seen it a lot, you know, um, people are starting to use the word, you know, inflammation and whatever.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really interesting for me because I feel like for me personally, my skin's always been a little red.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: I've always felt like, oh, things irritate me quickly.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: But from your viewpoint, having treated so many people, like what do you think is the main cause of irritation of the skin?
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that how can we avoid that as consumers?
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think if it's something that's come on like very fast and like it's something new and like instant, then chances are it's like a topical that's caused that inflammation, right?
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, like if someone's coming in they're like, Oh, my skin feels so sensitized and irritated, the first thing I ask is like, Well, what products are you using?
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: If someone comes in and they have persistent redness and cuperose skin or rosacea and things like that, again, totally out of my scope of practice to diagnose somebody.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: But my belief is a lot of inflammation starts in the gut.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's so hard.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: The studies aren't there for gut skin access yet.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's no it's it's hard to prove.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: One of the first things I do with my clients is put them on a fish oil, an omega.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: I like them to have an omega in their diet.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: Omega's soften the skin, they they bring down inflammation.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: They're extremely good for you.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then I also ask them like, what do they like to eat?
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: Do they eat animal fats and oils?
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: I hope so, because their skin is bad at it.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I can tell immediately if someone's vegan just by touching their skin.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because chances are they don't have enough fats and oils within their diet, and it really shows in their skin.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: If someone's diabetic, you can tell because their skin has a like a laxity to it because they eat, you know, their blood sugars are all off.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: Following a low glycemic diet can be really helpful with inflammation.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: Things like inflammatory conditions like eczema and and rosacea, like there, there's a lot of information out there in terms of gut health.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think ultimately what you eat has a massive, massive impact in redness, sensitivity, inflammation within the skin.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it must eat enough fiber as well.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: And this is so boring.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: This is like me sounding like an old person talking about.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's important.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: Fiber is huge and really, really important for healthy skin.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's interesting you say fiber because literally in all of GI, like anybody who learns GI medicine, and like you learn literally the treatment for most GI conditions is a better uh diet rich in fiber.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's the number one, you know what I mean?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the go-to thing you tell a patient, eat a fiber-rich diet.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it's unfortunately or just like a statement is like wellness is here, right?
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody is obsessed with wellness.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: I live in New York City, like everybody is just like very, very careful about what they eat and if they work out and what supplements they take, and you know, expansive skincare.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: We're all focused on protein as like a goal.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: And like I have a personal trainer, like my personal trainer's always telling me I should be eating 120 grams of protein a day.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's a lot of protein.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's a lot of protein, right?
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'm like, okay, well, where does my 30 to 35 grams of fiber come in?
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I basically can't eat this much food.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: But like, but fiber is is key for sure.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think having a varied diet rich in plants and vegetables and fiber, but also making sure you have protein and you're balancing your blood sugars, you know, blood high glycemic diets really will cause havoc with your skin.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, I love that.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think you're you're on point from you know, my understanding of just gut health, and you know, like I I know that leaky gut, you know, you made such a good point.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: You were like, just studies just aren't out there, and you're so right because even leaky gut, we're just now figuring out, you know what I mean?
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you see people saying things also like with like gluten-free, oh, I need gluten-free everything.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: No, you don't, unless you have celiac disease, you know, like stuff like this.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't, there's just not enough information, and that's why we're not able to prove it.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: But leaky gut is a real thing and it interacts with every organ, you know what I mean?
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like every organ gets impacted.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: So of course, yeah, and massive connection between leaky gut and and redness within the skin.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: I can see that.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and I want to actually I want to shift gears a little bit because I really want to learn about your brand.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited that you have a brand.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: If you haven't experienced it already, make sure you definitely check it out.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I Sophie, tell me about the brand.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: What made you want to start your own line and what led to all that?
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: I, like I said, worked in fashion for a really long time.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very familiar with like products and concept and production and all that.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: And ironically, when I first started working in facials, I was like, oh my gosh, it's so nice not to be designing product and having like, you know, production and calendar and all that.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I've come full circle with it.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: Now I have a brand.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like we have a product at the same time.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: But it was really truly born from the pandemic.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: And what happened was when we closed the studio in 2020, we were on governant governor orders that we were not allowed to do facials in New York City from March 13th, 2020 to September 25th, 2020.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: We were closed.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I was closed, I would be at home.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: My husband works in tech, so he would be busy in the bedroom, you know, at his office chair, whatever.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I would be sat in the living room with our six-month-old son, and I would be giving people consults and I would give them skincare consults over Zoom and talk through their skin.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: People who still had jobs during that time had a little money to spend because they weren't going anywhere.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: And they were looking at themselves on online all day.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was kind of this perfect storm for me because even though I wasn't able to give facials, I was able to do these Zooms with people.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: And within six to seven weeks, I was seeing massive before and after results because people were listening to me and just using the products that I would recommend and they would buy.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I would read it, and then I quickly realized there were products missing out of the selections I would like to give people.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: So one of them was this mandelic acid concept.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: So there are mandalic acids out there in the market that I would send people, but I would always be like, oh, it would be so fun if I could find a mandelic that was blended with hydration and also barrier support.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's the thing about exfoliants, you don't usually see them combined with nourishing ingredients that also support the barrier.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: They're usually like a one-stop acid, they're irritating, they tingle, and then you wash them off, and then you apply something else hydrating and moisturizing on top.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I wanted a product that had kind of a three-in-one aspect to it.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where the idea of Mandalic Clearing Serum came out.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we started the concept of it in 2020.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: It launched March 23, so last year, a year ago, product.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's been very well received.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: We've won a bunch of awards for it.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: It is truly just like an a three-in-one hydrating, protecting, and exfoliating treatment for acne, acne-prone skin.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: Anyone can use it.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: What I love about it is to your point about retinols, if you're on a retinol, you can add mandelic in.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's very gentle.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to help wipe away those excessive skin cells that that retinol is creating.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's not the way I recommend you use it if you have acne, but if you are on a retinol, this is a great exfoliant for you.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's been great.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then we ordered, then we launched our gel cleanser in June.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: The reason why we launched a gel cleanser was because I love the clean you get from a gel cleanser.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: But what I was finding was most of the gel cleansers on the market gave you that really tight stripped feeling.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to develop a gel cleanser that thought it was a cream cleanser.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that is it has a lot of hydrating and nourishing ingredients.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: So we included Alantoin and Panthanol and glycerin in the cleanser.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: So you get that foamy gel clean that you get that preps the skin to receive actives correctly, but you have that hydrating uh element to it as well.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that that came out last June.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then in September, uh we launched our nice ice, which is our cryotoning treatment.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: The way that that was born was because we really stand behind icing as a concept at the studio.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: And what we'll tell somebody if they have acne or they have breakout prone skin, when we're on that clearing program with them, after cleansing, they're gonna take a cube of ice and they're gonna rub it all over their face for one to two minutes.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: It helps bring down inflammation, it increases circulation to get oxygen-rich blood to the skin, but it also stops you hyperpigmenting because hyperpigmentation can also be heat-based, right?
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have a lot of heat in a pimple, you want to keep it as cool as possible.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: So we we love icing.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I was sat at home one time thinking, oh my gosh, wouldn't it be fun if you could put active ingredients in an ice cube?
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_00: So we went back and forth, thought about freezing toners, but of course, that like brings in the argument of freeze thaw stability, etc.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, so yeah, we did three years worth of development on this ice cube tray.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's a set of 12 individually wrapped cryo-toning pods that you put in the freezer, you take out whenever you're feeling, you know, like you have inflammation, you have any kind of breakout that you need to ice.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: Post procedure, it's really great after microneedling or lasers or waxing or you know, anything really.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people use them before makeup application to increase circulation, get a little illumination going on.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I've heard a lot of Russian models do this in the morning too, with just normal ice cubes.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's concept of this, yeah.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Eastern European.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's really cool.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: You're making these because your clients were requesting products, basically.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's really cool.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: The ice cube really was born in the studio, you know, it was something that we do all the time with our clients, and and yeah, it's it's it's great.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's won a it's won a bunch of awards already.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we're really excited about it.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I think it's brilliant that you have such an intense background, you know, like in the sense of like you really know what you're doing here, you know what I mean, and medically and aesthetically.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that your line has come out of that knowledge, you know, because a lot of times I kind of cringe when I see, like, you know, okay, you're starting a brand, but then why?
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like a lot of times.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like why?
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and so it's really cool that you're bringing all of this information and knowledge in a translational way forward in this industry.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: We really need that.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm such a supporter of everything you're doing, and you know, truly hats off to you for educating.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is this is huge, you know.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact that you're you're also uh I know you're launching in Violet Gray.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: Congratulations.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, very, very exciting stuff.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, everyone listening, you know, if you're on Violet Gray, make sure you're shopping.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: Sophie Pavit Face.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, I think what is that, March 25th?
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: You guys are available?
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, we'll launch in in a couple of weeks.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, congratulations.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and for everyone listening, I hope you learned a lot in this episode.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: I know I did.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Sophie, thank you so much for educating us and what an honor to host you.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's been such a pleasure.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 50:35
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• 50:40
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• 50:42
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• 51:23
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• 51:39
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