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Issue 345: Book Club: The Threat Within · Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast

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  I'm going to regret this. Welcome to the NED party. Hi, this
• 0:08
  is Nick and Ostasu, story editor on Star Wars, The Clone Wars and
• 0:12
  Star Wars bad Batch. And you are listening to Aggressive Negotiations. Well,
• 0:21
  hello, and welcome to Aggressive Negotiations, a Star Wars podcast. And I
• 0:27
  am just one of your hosts here, Matthew Rushing. And of course you
• 0:31
  can tell my voice is much more Darth vaderish and teenage boyish all at the
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  same time, and with me as he is always the one and only,
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  beautifully built Jedi Master John Mills. John, it's a new year, and
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  how are you celebrating? Well, I don't know how we got to a
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  new year. I think it has something to do with how we hit hyperspace
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  last time. I think we dragged along a few pergle And obviously the techno
• 1:00
  Union suit that you're wearing is not vocoding your throat quite right, so we're
• 1:07
  gonna have to twist a couple of those knobs and get there. Yes,
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  the Union Army, is that your disposal count? Well, I'm glad you
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  brought that up, because we are going to be in the prequel era as
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  we finally wrap up the Jedi Apprentice series with the final book in the series.
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  There are two specials then we may touch on later on, but we're
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  wrapping up the main series and we're excited to do that. Before we do
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  and dive into our review of The Threat Within. You can find us everywhere
• 1:42
  you get your podcasts. We would appreciate it, of course. If you're
• 1:46
  listening to this, if you would subscribe and please share us on social media
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  with two your friends. You can follow us at the Jedi Masters and our
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  entire network is at Joint nerd Party. We're on Facebook, at Facebook dot
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  com, slash, We're on Instagram at the nerd Party, and we're at
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  the nerd Party dot com where you can see all of the different shows that
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  we do. And there's a lot of different stuff coming out of the Nerd
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  Party, So we hope that you will check all that out. John,
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  I think one of the things that I noticed about this book was the intention
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  that Watson really has in trying to tie this series all together and really I
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  think build on the fact that she has been playing with four years of Obi
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  Wan and Qui Gon's life and this is the end of that four years,
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  and that's one of the things I thought was really great about this book was
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  the nice callbacks to the previous books that really accentuate the growth for these characters,
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  and really, I mean, Watson put these characters through the ringer.
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  What's tough with this is, you know how hard where I am about the
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  idea that I should be able to jump into a sequel, whether it's book
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  or movie, and just plug in and go. And I think that this
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  book is struggling a little bit with that. But at the same time,
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  I think that Watson does a good job, like you're saying, of tying
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  everything back so that you get the sense of history even if you haven't read
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  it. But at the same time, where I think a little bit of
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  the connection struggles is that Watson makes reference to past stuff, but focuses a
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  little too much on stuff that's more recent past. It doesn't have the feeling
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  of complete callback the way that you might expect from somebody who's coming into a
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  series and saying, Okay, this is the end of the journey sort of
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  thing. But I don't want that criticism to be too pointed, because that's
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  exactly where Rise of Skywalker goes off. The rate is it's entirely too focused
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  on trying to cram everything into one giant callback soup, whereas if you go
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  to Revenge of the Sith or Return of the Jedi, there's a sense of
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  history, but they don't obsess over it. Luke doesn't really talk about being
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  a moisture farmer in Return of the Jedi, and they refer to the fact
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  that Vader and Luke have fought before, but they don't say, remember like
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  when you got your hand cut off at Best Bin like, So it's not
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  entirely obvious, and Watson, I think, does also a very good job
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  of making sure that those callback moments are internal monologue as opposed to a clumsy
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  exposition between the characters. So if I read you correctly, what you're saying
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  is is that the sequel trilogy feels like an episode of Family Guy where the
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  dad's like, remember that time, and this even this book feels a little
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  bit more organic in the sense that the callbacks that we're getting. Watson is
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  using the storyline here to connect with a storyline that was very important and poignant
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  for both Obi Wan and Qui Gone and had a huge impact on Obi Wan's
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  growth. That's true, and so to do that. This really is again
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  she's crafting this story on purpose to show us the way in which obi Wan
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  handles this story is very different than the way he did in the in that
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  you know first story, which you know, she's calling back to the melod
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  To Dawn series of stories, where you know, obi Wan gets kind of
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  wrapped up in what's happening on those planets. He actually leaves the Jedi Order,
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  and then in leaving the Jedi Order kind of quickly realizes the utter mistake
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  that he's made, and he's made the wrong choice and that what he thought
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  was happening is not the right thing. And so it's so interesting because of
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  course that's playing into and I don't have no idea how you really say these
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  aliens' names the voriad Acts, I'm guessing, and you know, their whole
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  planet is kind of going through that that same situation. Right, You have
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  one group who they want change, they think they know how to make it,
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  and they're they're doing these things to get the change, but even inside
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  their group, they're disconnected from one another as to exactly how to make that
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  come about. And that was again, I mean, I think Watson really
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  shows and this is a short book, right, but in them in the
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  amount of time, just a real deaft hand at connecting with the previous story.
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  But I think also making a compelling news story that felt somewhat relevant to
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  the world we live in too, agreed. I think that the and I
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  was saying for Zydiac, but I have no idea how to pronounce it either,
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  because there's a character named Narnia in it, and every time I saw
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  it, I kept thinking Narnia. And then there's a character named Grath,
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  and I kept saying Garth in my head and thinking of Wayne's world. So
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  for those younger members of the audience, you might not remember Wayne's world,
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  but other members of the audience do remember Wayne's world. So yeah, but
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  it is it. It is a good type of story with what's going on
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  on. I was gonna say V because that's the first letter in the alien
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  planet names. So V four and V five are tense with each other,
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  and the tension is being exacerbated by what are considered terrorist disruptions to worker productivity,
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  which is at the corner of V four's whole culture, and loss of
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  productivity is psychologically and economically devastating to them. So that's interesting. That's a
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  complicated sort of concept to come at, and you find out it's because this
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  counterculture movement that's going on on V four, which is then in itself splintering
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  right as you're talking about here, and that I think is one of the
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  things where this story maybe should have been two books instead of one. This
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  feels like that specific aspect of the story gets a little bit of short shrift
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  and could have been plotted out a little more. It could have been fleshed
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  out more, basically because where you're looking at, the social commentary aspect of
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  it maybe is reaching to the sort of the gen xers of the time struggling
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  to find or even millennials struggling to find identity with their parents, but also
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  a callback to the sixties where work is you know, people start reassessing whether
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  work is really the most important thing, or whether we need to be enjoying
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  life, that sort of stuff. It feels like that could have been fleshed
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  out more, a little more intrigue and maybe a little bit more of a
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  red herring, because I think V five gets short shrift as the perceived villain,
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  specifically because with how short the book is Watson never really gets a chance
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  to play with the tension or build it sufficiently. I would say, it's
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  there, and then it goes away. It's just resolves a little too cleanly.
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  And it's even resolved in a sense off screen for lack of a better
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  term, because gui Gon says, oh, I'll have to get them to
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  be peaceful with their resolution, and then like a page later, it's like,
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  well, it's a good thing those talks went well. It's like would
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  have been nice to witness. I guess no, I do agree with you
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  on that. I think that that part, you know, it did feel
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  like the book if it had been, you know, even ten pages longer,
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  I feel like you could have really gotten at a lot of the things
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  that you're getting at one hundred percent, you know, I think the thing
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  is you're talking through, you know, the different issues, and I love
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  the way you kind of pulled in all the historical references because I one hundred
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  percent think that all of that's in there, you know. The thing that
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  really, I think it kind of shows that when you create a story and
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  you use kind of timeless themes, the way that you can apply it to
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  so many different time periods and I was thinking specifically, you know, with
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  this group of kids on V five who are are use me V four and
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  they are trying to disrupt the productivity of this planet who's completely driven by work
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  and work alone to create free time, to create a you know, more
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  than just one type of life, which is work. And you know,
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  they're willing to go to more and more extreme measures as they go along to
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  do so and to get their point across because they feel morally vindicated in their
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  position. And and it just every big movement in history, whether it's been
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  good or bad, has felt themselves to be morally vindicated. And the how
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  far they're willing to go sometimes becomes a byproduct of that blindness that that can
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  create. And I really appree siated that, you know, Watson gives a
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  picture of that here in the book, because again it's it's as poignant as
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  ever to see that, you know, what what really needs to happen is
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  and I think the beauty of this I was thinking specifically of of, you
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  know, the civil rights movement in the way in which there are two different
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  sides. There's the violent side and the non violent side, and you know,
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  basically having Obi Wan kind of stand up and give the type of speech
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  and then be backed up by Qui Gone that you would kind of hear from
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  you know, MLK Junior, which is an interesting thing to say, but
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  like to say, hey, this isn't getting us anywhere, This violence is
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  separating us. This that you're making the message harder to here, and what
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  we really need is to sit down and to hear one another, to listen
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  to one another and find a way to come to a solution that benefits as
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  many people as possible. And you know, Qui Gon even talks about too,
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  it's like that also means that you might not always completely agree, you
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  know, and that also needs to be okay. So just the sheer gamut
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  of things that Watson is kind of touching on in this book, I think
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  is pretty astounding. And I'm with you in the sense that the only downside
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  really to the book, I think is just that I just wanted there to
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  be more of it, because I think the storyline and what she's created really
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  kind of warrant, you know, being able to dive in a little bit
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  deeper, and that you know, that's one of those things where it's like
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  you read these books and it's almost like when you'd watch maybe a Clone Wars
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  episode in meters wishing it was a two parter. You know, that's really
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  how I felt. I'm weary, were there with you. I kind of
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  felt that way in this book. Make it a little bit longer books as
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  it's the end, or you know, just give this a two parter.
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  I think two parter is the only way to really treat it and to give
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  it all the space that it needs to breathe, especially with trying to wrap
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  up Qui Gon and Obi Wan and get them to a certain point that's going
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  to serve this story but also set the stage for the series to end and
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  have somebody say, Okay, I can see this as the two characters that
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  walk on screen at the beginning of the Phantom Menace, and here's well,
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  I'll do sort of like the compliment sandwich thing, because in that sense,
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  I see her taking Qui Gon and Obi Wan. I see them as those
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  characters pretty much here, while at the same time leaving the room for there
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  to be further adventures that I don't see. Just like a good Clone Wars
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  arc, if you left it there, I'm fine, But if you suddenly
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  came out with an episode that bridge between this and the other one. I'm
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  also fine because you've taken them far enough without taking them right up to the
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  moment of walking on screen in the Phantom Menace. That's awesome. Yeah,
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  I mean, yeah, no, go ahead, go ahead, please.
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  So I was just going to say, because I think the beauty of you
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  know, I talked a little bit about Obi Wan, but I think the
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  beauty of this story is really what it does for Qui Gon and you know,
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  putting him through the story that he's been with Tall losing her, and
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  I just really loved the way in which he's struggling with this idea of Obi
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  Wan growing up and knowing that sooner rather than later at this point, he's
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  going to take the trials and they're not going to be together as a team,
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  and him struggling a little bit with this idea of attachment that you know
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  it and I think that there's there's something incredibly beautiful about that and and to
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  kind of push that forward. The thing that it made me think was,
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  you know, Dave Filoni has talked about the beauty of the duel of Fates
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  fight and how it's really a fight for the soul of Anakin, because you
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  know, if if Qui Gon survives, things are very different, and I
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  think this book gives us the picture of why, because Qui Gon has that
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  ability, I think to struggle a little bit more with attachment than Obi Wan
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  does, who I think by the time we see him really, you know,
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  especially in episode two, he's he's had his he's had his opportunities,
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  right, but he's really fermented in to a man who is the quintessential of
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  what the Jedi were called to be in that time period, you know,
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  and and and not have as much of a struggle. And so that's where
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  I was really appreciative of the work that Watson had done here. And I'm
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  sure in some ways almost unintentionally, because you know, I don't think anybody
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  at this time period really understood the complexity and the depth of Qui Gon in
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  his journey yet, but to me that it really you know, reading it
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  now, it felt really good to read. I definitely think that Watson has
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  a in understanding of Qui Gon, and we've referenced us in previous books that
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  we've discussed in the series where Watson has I would love to sit down with
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  her and discuss and find out, did she have some sort of character bible
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  that was handed to her, Because this is the Qui Gon I saw on
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  screen. This is the Qui Gon that I defended, This is the Qui
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  Gon that I fell in love with back in nineteen ninety nine. Throughout this
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  whole series, I see him get there, and I see the aspects of
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  him, and even the way that he speaks. I can hear Liam Neeson
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  saying his lines. And to get back to sort of the meat of my
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  compliment Sandwich, is that where this also could have benefited from a longer treatment,
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  whether it's two books or ten more pages or what have you, is
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  while the callbacks are all internal monologue, and I applaud that I would have
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  liked more expository moments near the end of this arc with Qui Gon and Obi
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  Wan stating things a little more plainly, because this is one of those things
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  where it also could Slash should have set up a little more that not only
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  are they at the point where Qui Gon's more mature and ready to let Obi
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  Wan go, but there's still a little bit of friction between them when they
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  find Anakin, because Obi wants to caught a little off guard about taking the
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  Trials, Qui Gon is like, you know, I take I take Anakin.
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  Skywalker's my Potowan, Well you can't you already have one? Yeah,
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  obi want could take the Trials. And there's this split second where Obi Wan's
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  like, oh, yeah, yeah, I can, right, yes,
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  I'm ready for it. So do you see what I'm getting at where it's
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  like it it's a little too friendly the way that they've wrapped it up.
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  There should be a little bit more space for friction at the end of this
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  arc. I think I completely get what you're saying, but I almost feel
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  as though what it needed is to feel a little bit more like Obi Wan
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  specifically as a character, is more attached to Qui Gon in this moment,
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  because I think that's the almost the feeling you get in that scene, and
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  at least that's how I always read it. In a Phantom Menace, he's
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  like taken aback that he would just be kind of brushed aside, and it
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  hurts his feelings because absolutely, you know they're a team, and so I
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  think it's that and I don't know exactly how you do it, but you
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  just need to convey somehow in the dialogue, this idea of obi Wan not
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  quite being like, you know, Qui Gon's been realizing that obi Wan is
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  going to be at that point, but that's not where Obi Wan is,
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  and even almost in the Phantom Menace, that's not quite where he is.
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  Where. Yeah, he says he's ready to take the trials, but in
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  some ways, I think there's there's kind of such a love and respect he
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  has for his master that, you know, does that make any sense when
• 21:07
  for you to get at it? Does? I think at this point we're
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  sort of like splitting hairs because that I have. I don't disagree with what
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  you're saying there, but I think that obi Wan is caught off guard,
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  and it would have been in the Phantom Menace, like it's not just their
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  emotional relationship, but it feels like there's supposed to be a little bit more
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  formality to somebody presenting somebody is ready to face the trials, sure, sure,
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  yeah, and Qui Gon is perfunctorially just like, yeah, he can
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  face the trials. It's totally cool, and that that is one of the
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  things that catches obi Wan off guard. Is like oh wait, yeah right,
• 21:45
  yeah, sure, yes, I am well, and obi Wan being
• 21:48
  kind of a stickler for the rules anyway. Sure Like he's he's a slightly
• 21:53
  more rule based character, and so for him, I do not have the
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  formality like you're saying. I think absolutely I get it. Yeah, it
• 22:03
  would be sort of like presenting somebody for some sort of degree, right and
• 22:07
  your teacher shows you know, you show up with your teacher and you're like,
• 22:11
  yeah, I gotta feel ready to graduate and everything like that, and
• 22:14
  the teacher's like, yeah, I give him the final exam. Sure,
• 22:18
  yeah, okay, great, as opposed to like, hey, I'm going
• 22:21
  to present you to the board to give your master's thesis right now, I
• 22:23
  think you're ready to do it, you know sort of thing. Anyway,
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  All that's all higher education stuff, and I'm a very simple, simple man,
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  so I don't even know how that works. But I think that what's
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  fascinating about it, and this has happened to us repeatedly throughout this series,
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  is the fact that Watson, with these short, little young adult books,
• 22:48
  gives enough for you know, two grown adults to sit there and go back
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  and forth about this. And I think that what I really walk away with,
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  knowing that this is as official book in the series, you know,
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  outside those two special ones you referenced is the fact that I really want Watson
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  to come back and get another time, get another turn with Qui Gon and
• 23:17
  Obi Wan, for Pete's sake, please, Like, I don't understand why
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  you wouldn't. I yeah, I'm sure there are a number of reasons practically
• 23:26
  speaking and everything like that, but I read this book and the shortcomings,
• 23:33
  it feels like a more of a pitch for a larger story, and it's
• 23:42
  restricted by the format and the rules of the format that Watson has to play
• 23:47
  by for you know, contractual reasons or what have you. I I would
• 23:53
  love for this specific story, just like so many others in the series.
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  Give Watson the chance to come back, update it, align it with you
• 24:03
  know, quote unquote canon a little more now that Clone Wars series has happened
• 24:08
  and everything, and get like a book out of this. I think the
• 24:12
  thing that I think about this is that you know, there's there's reference stories
• 24:19
  in the Clone Wars that I think should be told in this type of series,
• 24:25
  and specifically, you know, I think of the story of Qui Gon
• 24:29
  and Obi Wan on Mandelor and you know, Obie One's running and you know,
• 24:37
  love interests to team and you know, I think disappointed to me that
• 24:45
  nobody has ever picked up that storyline and created maybe a trilogy of stories because
• 24:52
  it's said in this time period, and I think that this time period is
• 24:56
  rife for storytelling. And obviously we're going to be getting John Jackson's Miller John
• 25:00
  Jackson Miller's The Living Force, which takes place in the prequel era with the
• 25:06
  Jedi Order at that time period before the Phantom Menace. But to me,
• 25:11
  you know, forget you know, High Republic kind of stuff. Give me
• 25:18
  those Jedi you know, this time period. And again, like I like
• 25:22
  this series shows there's so much storytelling to tell about these characters, especially like
• 25:30
  an Obi Wan and Qui Gon, that I think could only benefit fans.
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  I think it would sell get like Gamebusters because fans love that kind of stuff.
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  And it's a time period which you know, is Disney really ever going
• 25:48
  to touch that time period like that again ever? Probably not unless you did
• 25:53
  some sort of animated series. But I don't think that's gonna happen. And
• 25:56
  so, you know, just create this is the milieu that you play in,
• 26:04
  you know, with the books for the next few years, you know,
• 26:10
  It's funny because when you said you heard my reaction when you mentioned the
• 26:14
  High Republic, I can legitimately say that I had forgotten that the High Republic
• 26:21
  was going on. I know Acolyte is a series, it's coming together,
• 26:26
  it's going to tie into that time period. But it's legitimately something where I
• 26:34
  am. It's legitimately something where I think it underscores how much I agree with
• 26:40
  you that this still resonates coming back to it. How long has it been
• 26:47
  since these books have been written, right, It's been quite a while,
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  And the fact that they still land, I think speaks very much the fact
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  that this time period in THEA is still very rich and offers tremendous opportunity to
• 27:08
  the right author that wants to or can you know, run with it as
• 27:12
  it were. And again I'll continue my small little vocal campaign here in our
• 27:18
  little corner of the galaxy to say that I think Watson deserves that shot.
• 27:23
  Let her come back and say, look look through the whole series. Can
• 27:26
  you turn this into a trilogy? Can you take the best of everything,
• 27:30
  put it in a blender. This is yours, this is your baby,
• 27:34
  Come in have at it. I'd love to see it and do it as
• 27:40
  adult novels right where you know you've got three hundred pages or more a novel
• 27:45
  to be able to really dig in. So now I couldn't agree with you
• 27:49
  more and I think, you know that really does lead me to as we
• 27:53
  wrap up this last book in the series, the official book in the series,
• 27:56
  where do you end up with the ratings for or the threat within?
• 28:02
  Well, as much as I enjoyed it, because of those shortcomings that we
• 28:04
  talked about, since we're working on a five point scale, because there will
• 28:10
  never be another scale, we thought four stars was it, it's five stars.
• 28:14
  Will nobody will ever go be crazy enough to go for six on a
• 28:18
  five star scale? This is a solid three, very enjoyable, and I
• 28:23
  read it obviously gave us something to talk about, but a little bit of
• 28:27
  frustration because there were just elements that could have been fleshed out better. What
• 28:33
  about you? Yeah, on good Reads, I gave this a four,
• 28:37
  but it's really I think a three point five, and I think for the
• 28:41
  very similar reasons that you gave. I really did enjoy the book, and
• 28:45
  I thought it was a good kind of wrap up, but in some ways,
• 28:49
  because it was the end I was wanting, I guess more, And
• 28:55
  I think that's a testament honestly to Watson and the fact that this whole time,
• 29:00
  I feel like almost every book, our one refrain has really just been,
• 29:06
  oh, man, I just could have more of this. And you
• 29:08
  know that's the thing where any good author, any good storytelling, kind of
• 29:15
  leaves you with that, right You're like, you can see yourself wanting more
• 29:18
  in it. And so you know, walking through the series has been a
• 29:25
  joy for me and I know and for you to the fact that to be
• 29:30
  in this time period with for us, you know, for me, oh,
• 29:33
  we won my favorite character. For you, Qui gone your favorite character,
• 29:37
  and to be able to spend this amount of time with him has been
• 29:41
  a real joy. So hopefully we'll get that opportunity there in the future.
• 29:45
  But you know, John, people did want to catch up with you and
• 29:48
  see the things that you're working on. Here in the year twenty twenty four
• 29:52
  and beyond, where will they find you. Well, here in the galactic
• 29:56
  year twenty twenty four. Big things are going to happen, just probably not
• 30:00
  to me, but you can reach out to me online as Kessel Junkie k
• 30:03
  E. S S E. L j u n Kie can find me right
• 30:07
  here on the network, co hosting a show called house Lights with Tristan Riddell
• 30:14
  and Darren Moser, where we look at the works of directors and segments of
• 30:18
  their careers and different topic areas and stuff like that. We have a time
• 30:22
  and I love to reference the appearances that I've made over on the six o
• 30:29
  two Club over on TFM, which is hosted by you, mister Matthew Rushing.
• 30:32
  So where can people find you out there? Well, you know,
• 30:37
  when I don't sound like a Darth Vader slash a frog. You can find
• 30:42
  me all over social media under the name Matters thingserpe to. Of course,
• 30:47
  here on the network, I also have AWL posts with Ray Kaufman talking about
• 30:51
  every single chapter of the Harry Potter series one chapter at a time. Got
• 30:56
  the six oh two Club there on the TFM network, and some great stuff
• 30:59
  coming up for this year, slowing down a little bit with for me getting
• 31:03
  into a new job. But I'm excited to say that the first episode of
• 31:07
  the year, it's going to feature none other than John Mills, so people
• 31:11
  are gonna want to check that out. You also find me doing the orb
• 31:15
  Wort five artificial tango saddle up, and literary treks and yeah that's pretty much
• 31:22
  it. So you know, John Wow, Jedi Apprentice is over. I
• 31:26
  hear the bells of the Jedi Temple ringing. I think it's time to go
• 31:32
  to the Room of one Thousand Fountains and hit a little notation, Master Rushing.
• 31:38
  Let's go meditate and hopefully that water doesn't make other things want to happen.
• 31:45
  Negotiations are closed. Join the Revolution, Join the Nerd Party.