Latest / Path to Hope Podcast / HOW FAMILY MENTAL HEALTH STRUGGLES SHAPE OUR LIVES | LELA SHEPLEY-GAMBLE
Transcript
- Saroni Kundu Intro Episode (2): I had achieved what people had told me was what we were all striving for, which is some kind of power and money. And if we had that, then we'd be happy. And I had a modicum of those things and thought, is this it? Did you know that mental health struggles rarely ever impact the individual only? Welcome to the Path to Hope podcast. I'm so glad you're here. Walk this path with me. I just want you to know that this is our very first show. I am a podcast host for the very first time. And my guest today is a podcast guest for the very first time. So three firsts makes for a charm. Today we're going to talk about how mental health struggles for an individual impact, of course, the individual, but also the family around them. So without Further delay, I want to introduce you to my wonderful friend and first guest, Leela Shakley Gamble. She's a dear friend of mine I met through my Buddhist practice. And when I heard about her life, I was just amazed at what a remarkable human being she is. So, Leela, tell us, really, you know, summarize your life so our audience knows what a remarkable, long, beautiful life you've had. Well, okay, Cerone, I'll do my best. born and raised in Missouri, St. Louis, went to Yale University as the second class of women at Yale, graduated and went to Manhattan, where I worked for a large financial organization for 15 years, became a Buddhist, ended up marrying the Canadian man who introduced me to Buddhism and moved from Manhattan to a cabin in the woods with no running water, no electricity, and no road access. Wow. We had a baby at the age of 42, having been told that I couldn't have a baby. started a Montessori school with two other women because we wanted Montessori education for our kids and there wasn't anything available. Was the principal of the school for 13 years, left that when I became the full-time caregiver for my husband who had been diagnosed with prostate cancer. And after he died in 2017, a year later, I decided to move back to St. Louis where I had family. That's where I am now. And here we are. I told you, remarkable life. Well, we're gonna get right into it. about your childhood in Missouri. Tell us a little bit about your family life and how it was growing up. And I remember you told me how your mother had s some mental health struggles and how that impacted you and your family edges. I would love for you to tell us what you're comfortable with on that childhood. My parents were married after World War II. my brother was born in 1948. I was born in 1952. We were kind of the perfect. 50s family from the outside. We did have a sister who was born in 62 who had a very different experience than my brother and I had. But from the outside, everything looked great. On the inside, everything was not great. My mother was a very unhappy woman, and I think that she self medicated with alcohol. But in the 50s at that time, everybody drank. Everybody drank. There was cocktail hour, there were cocktail parties. People had wine with dinner. They had after dinner drinks. And there was nothing and smoking. Yeah. Like everyone's smoking everywhere. And when I was little, I figured in order to become an adult, I needed to drink coffee, smoke cigarettes, and drink booze. All three of which I did for various lengths of time and none of which I do now. Right, right. So I didn't like any of them, frankly. My mother in particular seemed to be a wonderful, warm, loving mother at times, and then was distant and mean and cold. And we never quite knew who we were gonna get. So It was a bit of a surprise and it was a bit of an anxiety to not have any kind of consistency in this way. However, as a kid, I just figured this was the way it was. Right. You know, I guess kids are resilient. I didn't think anything of that. Right. But what happened for me, which of course was different from my brother, is that I became a very self-sufficient person. Yeah. I could not rely on my mother. Sure. And my father was not very much in the picture, I think, in looking back, that he was basically an adolescent in a man's body for a long time. Sure. And when things were difficult with my mother, then he would go play golf with his buddies or play tennis or work late or whatever. And wasn't that Involved. I mean, my mother was clearly the primary parent. Yep. And that was tricky. That was tricky. That was tricky. For for especially the children in the house when they don't know really what to expect from the behavior of the adults in the house. I'm very familiar with that. You know, my just thinking back before I tell my story a little bit is, you know, when you look back now. What what is it that you see that you didn't know at that time and now you're like, you know what I mean? That sort of moment. Yeah. what I look back on is that clearly my mother was having mental health issues. Yeah. And at the time in the 50s, nobody really knew anything much about mental health. Absolutely. And I think that she had a great deal of anxiety. And in today's world, I think if she had been able to have some kind of medication that could have evened her out, it would have made a huge difference. And where it stands, you don't know what those mental health struggles were. Like we don't have you didn't have a a diagnosis, obviously. No. And so a lot of us, that's how, you know, it it's the story of our lives is in in those moments when we've As people who've lived in that family, we've seen these signs, but we just didn't know what they were. And so, you know, my my mother, my mom, later we find out that she does have general anxiety disorder. But throughout our childhood, we had no idea. We just knew mom got really stressed and really paranoid about everything, you know, and it's just kind of how we grew up and like you, I also became strong one and the one who wants to hold everything together. And and I think I can, you know, so much of many of our audience will probably relate to this where there has been those situations where we just didn't know. And so how that impacted us, you know. So with with that, with your childhood, you know, s as you grew up there and then and then moved to New York, like I just Help us understand that transition. What pulled you there? Obviously, you were in a Yale university, which, you know, in this was in the sixties. This was 70s, 1990. In the 70s that you went. Yeah. Tell us about that. You know, how how you got pulled into New York, you know? Well, I I I was a Russian studies major at Yale, which I fell into completely by accident. As a Buddhist, I know that there are no accidents. But anyway, I became a Russian studies. major and so I spoke Russian by the time I graduated. And so I was hired by a large financial organization to basically work in their Moscow representative office. But they said we want you to go through our management training program first and then we will send you to Moscow. And I said, fine. And in the nine months of my training program, the relations between the Soviet Union at that time and the United States tanked. They pulled the license for our representative office and I was not sent to Moscow. got it. And ended up working in New York on their Eastern European desk. Got it. But then they started moving me around the organization as part of their manpower planning. Sure. thing. And so I had a lot of different jobs in a lot of different places. And it was interesting enough. So it it kept me yeah kept me going. And finally I became a senior vice president and I was working really hard, which I have always done. Again, going back to my family, I I tried to please both of my parents and my father was kind of a Republican. My mother was rather a Democrat. They were, you know, at each other's throats in many ways. And so I tried to bridge the gap. Yeah. I made straight A's to please my father. My mother would say she'd give me a dollar for every C that I made. But then I was in the theater, you know, aspect of things and I was a singer and a dancer and that that pleased her whole creative thing. And then I was you know, on the school newspaper and student council and that you know pleased my father. And the only place where I couldn't manage pleasing one or the other was with my boyfriends. Okay. And if my father liked him, my mother hated him. And if my mother liked him, my father hated him that me was like goodness. Anyway, New York, I worked very hard trying to Be everything for everybody, and realized that I felt like I was dying, that I felt like I was filling up with ashes, that I had achieved what people had told me was what we were all striving for, which is some kind of power and money. And if we had that, then would be happy. And I had a modicum of those things and thought. Is this it? Yeah. I mean, is this just not finding the happiness? You know, I I really was not happy. And I was like, why am I doing this? I'm I'm maximizing wealth for bankers trust company shareholders. Right. And I didn't care. Right. So you were working hard, yeah, but it was draining you. Yes. As opposed to now you work hard. But it's so fulfilling. I think that's the difference that I want people to understand is, you know, your childhood fuels so much of what you end up doing as a young adult. And and I it sounds like exactly that that's exactly what happened. So, you know, what parts of your like you said, your childhood was, you know, pleasing your mom in certain ways, pleasing your dad. I think a lot of us can relate to that. At what point did you think, okay, this is not working, right? Because you then moved to rural Canada. So take us through that journey. Take us through that. Yeah, well, I basically said New York I felt that my job in New York was not working. And I began to think about whether New York was working for me. I had gone to camp in Canada from the time I was 12 until I was 17. And in the Canadian wilderness in this camp, I learned how to paddle a canoe and I lived in a tent and I was in a very small group of very independent women, young women, who were learning that they were quite capable and strong. And and I loved, I loved that. That was an amazing experience. It is, yeah. And so I really started to question whether New York City was where I wanted to be and thought about quite seriously. Once I left Bankers Trust Company, I had another job and was working with my brother in his public relations business. got it. And was helping him, but I was really assessing where I wanted to be. Sure. And I basically came to the conclusion that I wanted to move to Minneapolis because Minneapolis reminded me of Canada. Yeah. And, you know, the city of Ten Thousand Lakes or whatever. And I figured I could get a good job and I could still canoe and carry on. By nature, yeah. But the universe had different plans. And there was a reunion at the camp that I had had attended. And I went there in 1987 and I reconnected with a person that I had known from the camp and named Rob Gamble, who had been a guide on our canoe trips, etc. And he and I reconnected, and the rest is history. History has been. And there's there's a long story associated with that in terms of Buddhism and everything else, but let's just suffice it to say that we reconnected and were married in nineteen ninety and that's when I left New York and moved to Canada. Moved to Canada and and your husband used to live in a cabin in in like literally the woods. Tell us about that. Well he I mean, yes, it was a cabin in the woods, no running water, no electricity, no road access. So the only way that we could get to it was by boat. Wow. Or in the wintertime by cross-country skiing over a frozen lake. wow. In order to get to the truck to then drive for an hour to get into town. Now he had lived like that for twenty some odd years before he and I got married. And he had had an interesting background in that he grew up in an upper middle class family in wealth Ontario. Yeah. And was told that he needed to be a doctor or he needed to be a lawyer or whatever. And he just went, no, no. And so he decided that this part of Canada was the only place that he had ever been happy. And he went there to live. Yeah. And then he had to figure out what he was going to do in order to survive. Right. And so he taught himself how to, you know, repair things and became kind of the handyman for people who had cottages in the summer. And he apprenticed himself to a canoe builder and he learned how to build cedar and canvas canoes. And he created this life for himself, which when I reconnected with him in eighty seven, I'd been dating people in New York who were, you know, mergers and acquisitions people. And he's like, what do you guys do? How does this work? You know, what is there anything real that you're doing? And here was Rob who was doing very real things with his hands. His hands. You know, building things. And I was like, wow. Yes. Very cool. Very cool. Anyway, so I knew what I was getting myself into. and leaving New York and moving into the cabin was actually a very charmed time. in my life a very charmed time. It was it was such a relief and it was such a it was a privilege to have been able to live like that for four years. I you know we lived me he'd been living there year round but I spent four years living there year round and so experienced The ice going out and the ice coming in and just so connected with nature. Absolutely. that must have been so fulfilling. I mean, coming from like New York City, cement and buildings and subways to you know that. And and I think in your heart you always knew that's kind of nature was always pulling you, I think. Well, nature was pulling me, but now that I'm here back in St. Louis, I I realize that. Actually, I am an urban person. You are. I am an urban person. I am happiest when I'm in a city and I have lots of stimulation happening. So my Canadian experience of 27 years living in rural Canada. Now we didn't live in the cabin forever. Forever, right? You know, when I became pregnant with our son, we did buy a house that was had electricity in the water. And a driveway, you know, which was real exciting. But I had to work very hard to find things to keep me engaged, mentally engaged. And sure, I could snowshoe and I could cross country ski and I could skate and I could do those things in the winter, which is good in Canada. But if you asked me, would you rather go to the movies or go to a lecture or Snowshooting through the woods, I would say I want to go to the movie. Theater. For sure, for sure. So you I here's what I'm hearing, Ina. Like I feel like the mental health shift, right? So in New York, when you got to that point of I am just so tired. I just I can't, I don't know what my life is really about. Think about it, like, and and a lot of us have gone through this. What does my father want? What does my mother want? What is, you know, and then you ultimately you're like, I just can't live like this. So for me, it sounds like those four years of the cabin was just your gosh, finding yourself, maybe a little bit like you know, because you don't you're just with nature, you're you a husband, and like you said, it's a very charmed time of your life. I think I feel it's because you were finding who who you really are. Well, you also have to remember, Sorone, that that was the beginning of my Buddhist practice. that's true. My Buddhist practice started in New York. Mm-hmm. Towards the later period. Yeah. No, you know, like the last six months of my time in New York, that was when I started my Buddhist practice. Yeah. And when I married Rob and moved to Canada, that's when it really took off. Just because we were there, we were together. He practiced, I practiced, and that that combination really did help me find my passion and who I was not doing the things that I felt like I should be doing. And certainly my time in New York was look, I'm a I'm I'm one of the first. Yale women graduates and I can't wait on tables and try to be an actress and a singer and a dancer. I I can't do that. I have to prove that women can do what men can do, women can be successful in business, and women can, you know, because that was the time. But it was all doing things that I felt like I was supposed to do. Supposed to do. Right, right. And When I moved to Canada, I mean, people told me I had lost my mind. They did. They told me I was crazy. And I had to really struggle with that before I left my job. I I mean, I really people said if you do this, you're destroying your career. Second guess yourself. Yeah. You know, even though your part is like, I just need, you know, some a different life. and I just got to thinking about, you know, you said when you when you were you had your child and you moved into a house that actually had running water in a driveway and you were like, Well, I needed to keep myself engaged. And so this Montisserie school idea, I am so intrigued because when you think about, you know, the career you had, nothing to do with children, and here you are. Like thinking about no, I I want my child to go to Montessori, so I I'm gonna make one myself. And and so how did that happen, you know, in your mind? Like what what what was that like? And ultimately I also wanna know, because we're talking about mental health struggles within a family and how that influenced you, how did your mom and dad then take your whole transition? you know, to that, to the Montessori school and all of that, you know. Ask the question again. Which part? So let's start with Montessori School. Like how, you know, how did you think about starting that and getting into that, you know? it was because I had met two other women who were also interested in Montessori education for their children. And quite frankly, without going into a lot of details, Montessori education and a Buddhist view of children is very compatible. Gotcha. Very, very kind of aligned. So it's very aligned. One of those women was a trained Montessori preschool teacher. And she was running a very small little Montessori preschool. And when I found out about that, then I enrolled my son. In that and I met the other person and the three of us started talking. She, you know, the other person had kids in this program. And we started talking about the fact that there was no Montessori elementary. And then it's And then I just said, well, if we want it, then we're gonna have to make it. Sure. And we made the determination in March that we wanted a Montessori elementary school. And we opened the doors in September. Wow. Of the same year. That is amazing. And all of the things that I had learned in my background in Shark came in very heavy. I can imagine. Starting a school and dealing with the town, dealing anyway. All of that stuff. All of that stuff. See, life is designed for you, to be very honest. And and so how did your parents take this whole thing with, you know, especially your mom? Well, my parents, interesting story about my mother in terms of all of this. My parents were divorced when I was 15. and I think once that divorce took place, rather than polarizing each other, they both came a little bit closer to the center, which was great. My father was always supportive of whatever I was doing. He never wavered. It was like, honey, you do what you need to do. Yeah. Now he and my stepmother. Did think that I was crazy living in the cabin in the woods, but it was like you do you and that's fine. They didn't give me any trouble. My mother was fascinated. She was fascinated by all of this. But my mother was also continuing her journey, very roller coaster life. And but again, she thought that I was just. fabulous that I was brave and that I was, you know, doing what I needed to do. And so I had her full support as she always wanted that, you know, to just you to be just as creative as possible and live your life that way. And she always felt very constrained by the roles that she felt were imposed upon her. And sometimes I feel like my mother's anxiety and a lot of her Mental distress came from the time in which she was born. And it was almost like she was a generation too early. That if she had been born in the cities, I mean she would have been but she wasn't. She was expected to, you know, be a corporate wife, and she was expected to be with the little apron and cooking for her children. And she that wasn't who she was. It just wasn't who she was. Anyway, my mother loved the Messory School or the idea of the Montessory School. She said to me at one point when we were talking, I'm going to move to Huntsville because I want to get to know my only grandchild. And she, you know, we had certainly visited in St. Louis and we had visited in other places that she had lived. But she said, I'm moving to Huntsville. And I said, well, mom, that's great, but you're an American and you really can't just come through here. You know, there's all sorts of processes. And she said, hell with that. And she picked herself up, moved from Santa Fe, New Mexico, which is where she was living, came to, drove across the border, bought herself a house, got a Canadian driver's license, and just settled in. Wow. And it was like, mom, gee, you can't, you know, you can't do that. She'd go, I'll leave after, you know, five and a half months as a visitor. And she would go and visit her sister in North Carolina. And then she'd come back. And then she'd come back on a visitor visa until the Canadian authorities got wind of it and would pull her out of the line and say. Where do you actually live? She would go, I just go where I'm needed. You know, my daughter runs a school and sometimes she needs help, and then that's just back cancer, and I go to and finally she got scared, yeah, sold her house, sold her car, and moved to North Carolina before the Canadian authorities moved. know, right? She was adventurous. My goodness. She was Something else. Yeah. She was a firecracker. She was a firecracker. Wow. But amazing. And she came up saying, you know, I want to read with the children and I want to spend time with my grandson. And she got up there and she had no interest in anything. She did that for about two seconds and then it was like Not for me. Done with that. That is so funny. my gosh. So it's you know, I'm just thinking about you know. your child and your marriage and we all carry a lot with us, you know, especially when we have a childhood like you've had. how did what what was that like, you know, bringing sort of that into your marriage and into motherhood? How what was that like for you? And I know you'd already started pac practicing Buddhism, which was I know very helpful at the time. But yeah, take us through that experience. Well In New York, as a young adult, I basically told everyone I will never get married, and I will never have children. I will never have a job because I don't like kids, is what I would say. Yeah. So then I get married and I have a child and I get all involved in all sorts of children type thing. And I started school. Right. Gosh. And people in New York were going, What are you? Right. I find that I love dealing with children one-on-one because I'm so interested in this incredible unfolding that's taking place in front of you. Groups of children at the Muskoka Montessori school, there was a little secret. It was like, do not let Leela into the classroom with the kids unattended by a teacher. Because I told them. That I would kill those children and I'd end up in jail and the school would fail and it would not be a good idea. Because it always made me mad because I'd go into a classroom and the kids would be acting like children. And it's like, you're acting like children. So anyway, I liked dealing with them one on one. And that that was a pleasure. My own son was just a joy. I I mean, he was a joy. However, I I will say, Soroni, in reading your book, hope starts at home. My son went through a period of time when he was highly anxious. He was highly anxious and he kept wanting to know where I was going to be every single moment of the day. Yeah. And I was very impatient. Sure. I was impatient. I just said, this kid's trying to control me. I blew him off and basically just said, get a grip. Mm-hmm. Reading your book just made me, I mean, it was an eye-opener for me. And it made me feel actually, it made me feel very ashamed by how I treated him at that time in his life. And I realized that he he was he was having mental health issues and I didn't really see it or I mean I saw it, but I didn't label it that way. And so fortunately I can say my son is 32 years old now. Yeah. He is a wonderful adult. He and I have a great relationship. That's so it's a very open and honest relationship. Yeah. So I I hope that I did not do irreparable damage to him at that time. Well, I think the fact that you're being open and honest and you're in his adult life and you built that connection. See that that's what I, you know, when you said you were ashamed, that's a feeling and an emotion you had and you have every right to feel that way. But I want to tell you and the audience that this is exactly why, you know, I'm doing what I'm doing is because I want people to know that when you don't know, you can't do. You see what I'm saying? Like if you don't know, right? So when we see those signs, we don't, we didn't know. Like so you can only do better when you know better. And and so that was the whole reason I wrote the book is I wanted people to know that, you know, there is hope, there is a path forward. And yes, it's frustrating because I know my daughter showed those signs, you know, constantly. you know, wanting to be with me and know where I am and, you know, I love you every two seconds, you know, like to see how I would respond. And children have so many different ways of showing that anxiety. But it it for me, it just connected so many dots because I I kind of remembered my mom's childhood stories, but she would say when she was a child, all her siblings would be sleeping. She would be wide awake because her father had not come home yet. And she's like, I don't know why I couldn't sleep. Because I would think of the worst scenarios that would have my father had an accident, my father this, my father that. And and it's just like, my God, mom, you've had anxiety since you were a child. So when you have these situations where someone grows up with a mental health issue that is not diagnosed or treated. It manifests in so many ways and it follows through generation to generation until someone breaks the cycle. So I want you to know you should you how you should feel about yourself. You broke the cycle. You were the one who broke the cycle. Now, yes, as when he was a child, you were impatient, true. But today, what you have built with him. And he, you know, you guys are roommates. I mean, how wonderful is that? You know, I I just want you to know whatever inner work you did, and I tell in even in that book, and I tell my audiences you can meet your child where they're at, or your friend, or your sibling, or your parent, only if you've met yourself at that level. And you did that work, which is why you were able to meet your son. You know what I'm saying? And then make that connection. So That is amazing, Leila. Thank you. Thank you. So tell, you know, I I know this is a sensitive topic and I, you know, but I think our audience will really benefit from from listening to especially those who struggle with suicidal thoughts and suicidal ideation and and people who are have seen their family go through that. Take us through that journey as much as you want to on how this had impacted your mother. And and you as well. My mother attempted suicide three times. And once again, in looking back on my responses to that, they definitely changed over time. My initial response to her initial attempt was I was furious. Sure. I was furious with her. How could she? Why would she not reach out to us? You know, we love her. We've always been there for her. We haven't ever rejected her. Why wouldn't she let us know that she was feeling this way? And I was angry, angry, angry. And I realized now that this hard shell of anger was protecting my sorrow. Yeah. You know, my complete sadness over her. Yeah. Total sadness. So I I realized that that hard shell of anger was just protecting me from my sadness and yeah. You know. She she tried to do herself in while she was still drinking. So she did not realize that she was an alcoholic. And I didn't realize that she was an alcoholic really until I was in my mid to late. twenties. Right. And once again, not understanding at that time that she was self-medicating with alcohol. I didn't get that. It was like you gotta stop drinking. Right. You got to stop doing that. Right. And she was in denial around her problem. And but it was when she was drinking that she just decided that the world would be a better place if she weren't in there. Sure. She did stop drinking. She stopped drinking one month after I started practicing Buddhism. And she would often say to me, Do you know how long it's been since I've had a drink? And I'd go, Yes, I know exactly how long it's been since you've had a drink. Amazing. But she she still had her roller coaster. What she said was when she stopped drinking, she figured all of her problems would go away. Yeah. And she said all that happened was that the fog cleared and she could really see those problems clear. Right, right. And later on in her life, she did make another attempt after she had gotten sober. And I I had a, you know, I mean, I think my compassion had expanded and my awareness of mental health issues had expanded. And my brother, my sister and I in terms of pooling together all of the different knowledge that each one of us had gained through a lot of internal work. Right. We're able to see her more completely and to have compassion for her struggles. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And for her to then have compassion for herself because a lot of people who struggle turn to substance abuse and can be in so many different forms because they're trying to cover up that psychological pain. And now we're not trying to diagnose anybody or we are not the experts. But when that person's struggling and it's harder with adults because you can only Tell them so much and they have to know themselves that they want they have they want to go and get help, right? Professional help. In my sister's case, she attempted suicide and survived, and that's how she was diagnosed. Your mother never did get diagnosed. No. So but it in spite of that, because you and your siblings had built so much compassion, I think she was able to see herself a little differently. But she now she's sh what what age did she she natural naturally pass away. Well, again, this was my mother. My mother was ninety-four years old. Amazing. And she was tired and she just kept saying, I don't want to continue to live. I don't want to continue to live. I'm done. I'm done. And the three of us had come to see her because she was a bit in crisis. And She was in crisis because she was saying she'd been falling and she wasn't gonna go into assisted living and she wasn't gonna do this. And my sister, who was the boots on the ground at that time, my mother was living in North Carolina, my sister was there too. My brother and I in St. Louis, you know, we went to help. And my mother basically just said, I'm done and I want you to put a pillow over my face. And I said, Mom, we're not gonna do that. That isn't gonna happen. Yeah. And she burst into tears and said, I'm tired. I don't want to be here. And I said, I don't think that's true. Because you take your medications on time. You, you know, look after your foot, which has had a you know problem for a long time. When you got pneumonia, you didn't say, just let me go. You said, you know, and I said, So I think you really want to live. Right. And she looked at me and she said, you know, I really didn't think. Wow. And she turned to the three of us and she said, I am going to stop eating, drinking, and taking my meds. And I want you to support me. And we all said, Okay. Wow. I called her doctor and I said, This is what my mother has decided to do and what she has asked of us. I really don't want anybody to think that there's elder abuse going on here. Her doctor said, Leela. Anyone who knows your mom would know that this is what she wants to do. And any way that I can help, I will be happy to do in terms of hospice care or whatever. My mother made the decision that she made on a Monday and she died the next Thursday. And we were all with her. And she had a peaceful exit. Her greatest fear was that she was gonna die in a hospital with people sticking her with needles and she done that. She just she didn't. Yeah. And she was peaceful in her sleep. That's beautiful. It was amazing. That was amazing. Yeah. You know, and I I just think about because I don't know how to say this, but because you and your siblings did work on yourselves, on your soul and spirit and all of that. I feel like that was culminated into that peaceful ending of your mom's life. Whereas if I think of the opposite, like if you had not done that, I can't even imagine. Like I don't even think you siblings would be talking to each other or your mom or there'd be just heartbreak. And you know, and and that's what I when I talk about this so passionately, I say, you know, it's so easy to say, well, you're the problem and you are this and you're that, but how much do we really do our inner work? Yeah. 'Cause we had to do that. My husband and I had to do some and we're still doing it. you know, as we are going through this with our children and as they are going through their mental health struggles. If you don't do that, like you you can't, you cannot connect with your kids or your parents or you have to do the inner work. And I see that you did it in your way, your siblings did it in their individual way. Yes, but you did it. Yes. You know, and and you're so right, Sorone, which is yeah, it it's it starts with each one of us. Yes. And we have to do that work. Yeah. We have to. So you did that work and you obviously there was more knowledge about mental health struggles and understanding, you know, that your mother actually did have something. You just didn't have a name for it, but it was something. I don't want to put any names out, but you know When you look at the symptoms, you can kind of guess, but let's not put any names on it. But that that's really what happened, right? And so when I look back at my life and how when my sister was diagnosed, you know, with borderline personality disorder, all the symptoms that the psychiatrist had told me, I began to connect so many dots from her childhood, from her teenage hood to because she was very close to me. So That's why I'm like, man, if if we had known, if we had, you know, and and how deeply did I meet myself at that time to meet my sister? Hardly. I was doing having my own struggles and my own, you know. So it it definitely was not something that you know I had worked on is much later that I started working on myself. So just A word that you want to leave the audience with as we close the show. Well, I think your book, I really think your book, Hope Starts at Home. Now we can assume that that also means the family, but I think hope starts at home is in here. Yeah. And that hope is a decision. Hope is a decision that we make. And I would like to leave with people the idea that no matter how grim something may appear to be, that there's always a way forward. There is always greater understanding, greater compassion, greater wisdom that is available to each one of us. Yes. And when we tap into that, we can always find a way forward and help the people around us do the same. Do the same. Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Leela. This was just such a beautiful conversation. And I want to leave you with the audience with this thought of what does hope mean to you? really look inside yourself and whatever the struggles you are, whether It's yourself or with your family or your friends. There is hope and there is a path to it. Join us next time for our next episode. Really appreciate you being here. Thank you.