Latest / Intentional Guy / Forgiving the Nightmare
Transcript
- Pastor Mark Sowersby: So so if you if I talk too much, just give me the cutoff side. I you know, that's the problem. I can get going. I I can preach this thing. Michael Chestnut: I got it's perfect. So Well, and that I love it. That w actually 'cause people don't want to hear me as much as they want to hear you. And your last name is S Sourby. Sourby? Sour? Pastor Mark Sowersby: Sowers sow like sow like a sower and a seed. I like the you know, go out and sow your seeds. Sowers be. Sowers be. Yeah. Michael Chestnut: So words B. So we're sowers be. Okay. So let's go ahead and get started. And ⁓ we'll give it just a second here. I used to have to clap and then go in and edit. Now I don't have to do it as much on here, but I'm gonna do it just in case I have to download it. All right. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Intentional Guy. I'm Michael Chestnut and I'm so excited. We have Mark Sowers be here today, author, pastor, speaker. And ⁓ a lot of your story of what I've got to see has resonated with a lot of what ⁓ I like sharing with my audience on here. ⁓ mainly because the enemy likes to trap us in our story. And I'm I'm finding that once we can put light on that story and allow it to be God's story, how much power it really has, but also how much it can help other men to grow who think they're alone in that journey. So Mark, first off, thank you so much for being on here today. And I kind of like to just hand it over. I know you've gotten a few books you've written. I I didn't used to be a reader. I am now. I love reading books. ⁓ especially books from that are true stories, ⁓ from people I I've got to interview, get to know, ⁓ because it just brings a lot of power and punch to it. Pastor Mark Sowersby: Well, I want to say thanks, Michael, for having me on today. It's a blessing to be able to be on your program and share my story, my testimony, and lift up the name of the Lord with you. It's really a blessing to be able to have a place to share ⁓ this this this story and ⁓ just kind of share the heart of God and what God has done in me and through me. Unfortunately, I know my story is not alone. I know that many men have gone through what I've gone through in different ways and different acts. But I'll just start from the beginning. It's ugly. It's not fun, but it's real. And the story starts when I was seven years old. My mother married a man 20 years or her younger. He would come into the home and he would abuse me in every way, shape, and form. And when I say that, yes, you mind could go to all those ugly places that a mind would go to. He emotionally abused me, he verbally abused me. He sexually and physically abused me. He sold me to others that I found out later on. That means that I was trafficked. ⁓ so I I grew up in that ugliness. That's all I knew from the ages of seven till I was fourteen when I was old enough to kind of push them off and find somebody in my life to kind of come beside and help me. I find an adult who would believe in me and stand up for me. So there I was in those seven years. And people often ask me, Well, how'd you feel? What did you go through? You know, I felt numb. ⁓ the abuse was just kind of the atmosphere that I lived in. I was surviving. ⁓ you know, that's where I was. I wasn't thriving. I didn't learn how to read. I learned how to duck. And I'll never forget that first night as a seven-year-old when he came into my room and I heard the crackle of the threshold. I felt the weight of his body and the smell of his breath as he stole my innocence and he ravaged my body in such a disgusting way. But we really echoed louder than the pain and as loud louder than almost all the hurt. And I'm not trying to put Make the hurt any smaller. It was horrible. It was ugly. But what really echoed that took me many years to kind of get over, if you would, or get through, or to give to God, was that he said, Marky, that's what they called me back then. They said, Marky, it was your fault. And no one would believe you. And that lie lingered more than any scar or any any bruise or even past the abuse. And that's what I had to walk in. And I know that many men ⁓ have gone through this. If we listen look at Statistics. It used to say one in every ⁓ four girls or one in every seven men. But I believe those numbers are being ⁓ challenged. I think it's coming down to about one in every five guys, if not closer to the same amount of women, one in every four. But men don't talk about it. We cover it up, we self-medicate, we we chase it, we push it down. And I was that way for many, many years. I didn't want to talk about it. I didn't want to let everybody know my my ugly testimony of why. All this happened, I was shameful, I was guiltful, I was all that stuff. But I realized, as you said as we opened it up, where I am weak, he is strong. And the Lord brought me on a journey to be able to share this testimony with other men and other people. And I wrote a book called Forgiving the Nightmare and how I learned how to let God lead me into forgiveness and grace. Michael Chestnut: Wow. Man, so you don't know this, but you know, I I I dealt with that myself, ⁓ with ⁓ from a missionary ⁓ who stayed at our house when we were when we were kids. And so I never dealt with that until the last probably the last five years here have had to deal with that. And more men have actually are starting to come out and be more vocal, be admit more ⁓ about that. And there's such a shame and a stigma ⁓ that just attaches to you. And as you're telling your story, man, I just I feel that almost that weight again, you know, coming on me fr from that. But I also know that once I owned it and ⁓ I don't even want to say own it because I did nothing to cause that as a kid, right? But once I could acknowledge it though, the enemy no longer had my ear. Pastor Mark Sowersby: That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. Michael Chestnut: And so getting past the forgiveness, now that was that took some time. Pastor Mark Sowersby: Yes, it does. Yes, it does. And you're right, Michael. First of all, I want to say you are correct. And it was not your fault. You were a victim of those things. And probably like any of us as children or young people have gone through this, we didn't have the coping skills or the maturity. And I, you know, I tell people I came from a generation, ⁓ you know, I'm on the other side of 50 now. And I I came from a generation where if you didn't talk about it, it didn't happen. And that's kind of how my mom raised her house. She's dead and gone. She's I praise God she's in glory because she accepted the Lord. But you know, she kind of grew up in a in a generation that they kinda, if they didn't talk about it, it didn't happen. That those those skeletons in the closet never came out. You know, the ⁓ the awareness, the advocacy, and the support that we find today ⁓ wasn't there in the late seventies and early eighties when when probably a lot of your viewers and listeners are went through these things. Probably a lot you and I went through those times where Where you know, you just didn't have that place to reach out and find support in a community. Churches definitely didn't know how to deal with it. Families didn't know how to deal with it. You know, the courts they just didn't know how to handle it. And and that doesn't mean it was right. It just means we were lost. And then and as you said, a lot of men ⁓ are starting to come out, but you know, when you're hurting, pain always comes out, right? It's it needs to find that valve. It needs to find that it's like a pressure cooker, it needs to come out somewhere. And if we looked at our lives, that pressure and that hurt was coming out probably in unhealthy places. It was probably coming out to people we love the most, the people we trust the most, because we were walking around with this ⁓ pain, this hurt. We felt guilty and shameful. We didn't know what to do with. And like you said, ⁓ we had to go on a journey. And that's why I call my book Forgiving of the Nightmare. I didn't call it Forgive the Nightmare, I call it Forgiving because in that there's a process and a journey of how we get to that place to. To be able to let it go and let God, as they say, or or to surrender it to the feet of the cross. And that's what it was for me. I wish, I wish, brother, I went to the church and threw two bucks on a plate and said a prayer and went home and I never had to deal with it. But that's not what it was. It was one step forward and two steps back. It was me wrestling with myself. It was me hoping for for ⁓ my abuser to go to hell. I'll be honest, you know, I would close my eyes and say, Lord, my abuser deserves hell. And I I had a lot of hurt, anger, and and I asked the hard questions. Well, if you're such a good God, then why? Why couldn't you protect me? Why did you let me? Why did I went through all those seasons and that's what we discussed in the book and how it's just a real journey, a real people learning to let God love us. And I and I tell people, you know, ⁓ when I started this journey, and I was, you know, I got saved at at 16 or 15 years old that summer. You know, only about a year removed from my ⁓ my ⁓ abuse. My mom was living in an apartment complex. I never wanted to be home because of the hurt and the pain. So I found myself at a at the the apartment pool and the lifeguard, who was probably about 17 in a bikini, she asked me to go to church with her. And to be honest, I would have gone anywhere. She asked me to go. You know, just being honest. And she brought me to church. And you know, I met a charismatic ⁓ Michael Chestnut: Right. Pastor Mark Sowersby: Evangelical Pentecostal guitar player who told me about Jesus Christ. And I asked Jesus Christ into my Lord into my heart. He became my Lord. And that journey, ⁓ you know, I didn't I probably didn't even understand the weight of the prayer, the the weight of the confession that I was making at 15, 16 years old, but God did. And he was patient with me and he brought me on this journey. And so there I was saying, God, you know, help me. So I would say to you that. that my story doesn't start with me saying, God, I'm such a good person. I want to forgive the person who abused me. My journey started with, God, I want to know you. And God brought me to forgiveness in seeking ye first the kingdom of God. Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. So how did that journey begin for you then towards ⁓ dealing with this? Pastor Mark Sowersby: That's a great question. And I get asked that question ⁓ all the time. What's the steps? You know, what's the A B C, the systematics? And to be honest with you, there's there's a lot of things in a healing and a forgiveness journey that can reflect in each other's a story, but there's probably not a one, two, or three or an A, B, and C. But what I found out is that the first thing is I had to open up my ears to the right places. I was getting all kinds of advice, you know, Dr. Phil's ⁓ ⁓ the the the Dr. Phil therapist in in the pew. You know, every church has them, right? ⁓ the advice from that the the advice from people had no clue. I tell people some of the people who love me the most gave me some of the worst advice I ever had. Not because they were mean, because they just didn't know what to say. So I had to open up my ears to say, what advice am I going to really listen to? And the advice that got hold of my heart was God, I can't do this without you. So I had to seek God. I had to get into my scriptures. And I again I said in my opening ⁓ comments that, you know, I'm a dyslexic. I I literally, literally didn't know how to read because I learned how to duck. You know, I was in survival mode, not education mode. And so I had to fight through that and learn how to read the Bible and get tutors and all kinds of things to get me there. But when I started to be able to understand God's heart, that's all I wanted. And God was so kind. God was so gentle. God didn't force me to do anything. He brought me. And so the first thing I had to do is say, okay, what's what am I going to listen to? The flesh that tells me I have, you know, it's me, myself, and I. The worldly counselor that says, hey, hey, hey, you have the right to hate. And it's okay for you to hate. Am I going to listen to the, you know, the sidewalk social worker that says, you know, man, you don't have to do this. Or am I going to listen to the Holy Spirit? That's what I had to do is listen to the Holy Spirit. And that was the hardest thing because the Holy Spirit challenges us, right? All those other things are easy, er, but but I had to listen to God. And again, God just brought me to a place to seek you first. So the first thing I had to do is first listen to God. The second thing I had to do was realize what does it mean to forgive? Right? What is forgiveness? Now I know God forgives from the east, from the west, and our sins are gone and Michael Chestnut: Yeah, yeah. Pastor Mark Sowersby: Praise God. God is God and He sent his son Jesus Christ to die on the cross and fills us with the Holy Spirit, the Trinity, or you know, you know, but what does it really mean to forgive? Because you know, I grew up in a house again that said, that said, you know, forgive and forget. Don't make mountains out of molehills. ⁓ let it go, right? You don't want to stir it up the pot. And that's a part of forgiveness. Like if I if I bring it out, is this gonna hurt my parents? If I bring it all out, what's this gonna do to my family? If I let it all go, what are my kids or my wife gonna say? Michael Chestnut: Right. Pastor Mark Sowersby: But I'll say that the first thing I had to learn is that forgiveness is not approval. Let me say that because it's very important. Just because I forgive somebody doesn't mean I'm approving, supporting, or agreeing what they did. I can still say it's wrong. I could still say it's evil. I can still say it's against the law. I can still seek justice. I can still say you have to, you know, go to jail, whatever it takes. Just because I forgave you doesn't mean I'm approving of what you did. Michael Chestnut: Mm. Pastor Mark Sowersby: That's the first thing. That was a big one for me. The second thing I had to realize is that forgiveness isn't a one-time event. Yo, yes, it is for God. But for me, the Bible says, What? His mercies are made new every morning. And the Lord says in the Lord's Prayer, He says, Give us this day our daily bread and help us forgive those who trespass against us. And I think that daily is for both, not just the bread, but for the forgiveness. That, yo, of course I have triggers and I have. I call them echoes of the past. I can have a smell, I can smell something, hear something, and memory that brings me right back. And I have to say, Lord, I have forgiven in Jesus' name. It's not warm and fuzzy all the time. It's not an emotional thing. It's a faith thing. Lord, even though I'm I'm getting trapped with this lie that's trying to get back on me and fill my head, but I I have forgiven in Jesus' name. So not just an emotional, there's emotional parts to it, of course. But it's a physical and a mental and a process. So, and sometimes you got to do it every day. You know, I forgave my mother before I got married. And then I got married. And I had to kind of forgive because I had a different perspective. Then I had children. I had to forgive because I had a different perspective. And then I, you know, as we matured, our perspective changes, we realize how big the wound was against us. And the third thing here, without preaching too much, is that I had to realize I could have my boundaries and still forgive. I could have my healthy boundaries, meaning I don't have to do Christmas morning with the person who abused me. I don't have to, you know, have a kumbaya moment. I could give it to Jesus and let Jesus have it. Michael Chestnut: ⁓ wow. I like that because, you know, one, I grew up in that that Christian home. My dad was a pastor. And in that generation when when things happened with me, my family didn't even know about this until five years ago when I wrote my book. That's when they they found out what took place, right? Because we grew up in that I I grew up in the same generation where one they didn't I I I look at it more as they really the church was not we're in a place where they knew how to handle this, you know, nor trained in society. We I mean we were just on the cusp of even trying to figure wrap your heads around such events, right? ⁓ but what that created too was the enemy loves to keep you in silence and keep you there. So Pastor Mark Sowersby: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: For me, I noticed that a lot of things in my life, there's a lot of ⁓ other behaviors that related from that. And for me, that was when the journey really started because I wanted to understand why am I I who love God am addicted to pornography. I who love God ⁓ have have this, that, and the other things in my life, why? And you know, and not to rail not to put all that weight on an individual or something from your past, right? Pastor Mark Sowersby: ⁓ sure. Sure. Michael Chestnut: But when you stay in darkness, then the enemy kind of controls you a little better. And so for me, once I released that and was able to verbally speak it. And it to me for me, my freedom came, ⁓ my restoration came in relationships with godly relationships that came into my life that I was able to who were able to navigate the things you just said to me. You know? And ⁓ finding those people were what was a challenge because just like you Pastor Mark Sowersby: Mm-hmm. Amen. Michael Chestnut: A lot of good Christians say a lot of stupid things. And ⁓ I remember when ⁓ a season of my life happened and ⁓ and a pastor telling God was done with you. ⁓ that destroyed me. Right. But I also know that right now, as we're sitting here talking, me and you are on the other side of this. You know, thank God for that. But I know that there are listeners right now, there are men right now who are Pastor Mark Sowersby: That's true. Sure. Wow. Amen. Michael Chestnut: Processing that. And so what what you're speaking about right now. Pastor Mark Sowersby: That's right. Michael Chestnut: I wanna say it's is hope, but it's also ⁓ twenty years ago was something if I was listening to you, I just couldn't fathom what that looked like. And how how would that how that would even relate to me? What would you say to that guy? Pastor Mark Sowersby: Sure, sure. Well, let me just ⁓ say a couple of things to what you were talking about. You know, I didn't do this alone. I gave the reader's digest version of the story, you the quick, quick one. But I want to let you know there were many people that were in my corner. I had I I I I believe God could do things in the twinkling of an eye. I still believe in miracles that if God chooses, he's a sovereign God, he could raise the dead, he can open up blind eyes, he could still walk out of water. And if he calls us to do it, we can do it too. But many of us get healed. You get find our miracles in the journey. You know, David said I had to walk through the valve of the shadow of death and I'd fear no evil. Many of us have to go through that journey to heal. We have to go through those ups and downs. We have to go through that refining fire. We have to go through the process. And and I thank God, like you, you found good people, you found men that you could open up to. And in my story, the same thing. I had my pastors, I had my coaches, I had my counselors, I had my friends. So again, this journey is not done by myself. I had my Aaron and hers that lifted up my arms in the mess of my battle. ⁓ so I just want you to know, yeah, this wasn't some kind of hocus pocus, one prayer and done kind of thing. This was a real battle. And I would say that my miracle is as beautiful as the instant miracle because we are here. and I'm gonna give you a word picture ⁓ to try to tell you what kind of happened. I would tell you that. God helped me change my perspective. I was seeing red. I was seeing anger. I I didn't want, you know, I was that guy. I'm never gonna forgive this guy. People call me a pansy. They'll say I'm a salad, you know, ⁓ this guy, I don't want he doesn't deserve this. But as we talked about, you know, I was a teenager in the 80s. And what they would we didn't have a million television ⁓ channels and you know, we had UHF, remember? Michael Chestnut: Right? Yep. Me too. Pastor Mark Sowersby: You know, I was the antenna for my brother and sister. Yeah, you had to go stay you're of those days. And ⁓ you know, when we would come home from my high school, I would grab my my bowl of cereal, my Captain Crunch, and I'd turn on PBS. And there was a guy called Bob Ross. I think anybody in our generation, you know, the Afro painter, you know, happy mistakes, you know, and you knew he was probably higher than a kite paid on PBS, but you know, I think he just kind of attract everybody. And Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Pastor Mark Sowersby: And I'm not an artist at all. I can't draw a straight round line with a ruler. You know, I don't know. But ⁓ but I remember that almost at the end of every one of his paintings, whatever the subject was, the cabin, the lake, the the house, whatever he was painting, and almost the last two minutes of the show, he'd put a tree or whatever in the middle of the painting. There would be a beautiful painting of a waterfall, and and then just about two minutes left of the show, he'd put a tree in it. And I always remembered it kind of bothered me because I had to like look around the tree to see it. And I used to think, why does he do that? And this thought kind of got stuck in my my my head, you know, if you would. I didn't think about it all the time, but every once in a while, I don't know why that silly old thought kind of popped into my head. And one day I was praying and ⁓ and I was kind of just thinking out loud, thinking about that, and the and the Holy Spirit came to my heart and he said, He said, Mark, do you know what? What's happening there with art? I'm like, I don't know anything about art. He said, What's happening is the painter is changing the perspective. He's giving depth, depth to the painting. By putting that tree in front, your eyes are seeing depth. Now we know it's all on one plane and one-dimensional, but but by putting that tree in the center of the painting, he's taking the subject and making it look further away. And then the Holy Spirit just said to me, brother, he said. If you put the cross of my son Jesus Christ in front of your abuse, in front of your abuser, ⁓ you're gonna still it's still gonna echo sometimes, but it's gonna be further away. Not because you moved it, not because they moved, because you saw me first. You saw me first. And that is the honest thing that happened. Not that I just never got angry again and not that I still don't get sad or not that I didn't have to go through the process of of healing and dealing with the emotions and feelings and honesty and working through all the the practical things. But what really happened to help me stop being angry and wishing for hell and death and waking up with this weight that was on me every day is my God changed my perspective. So now when I may see my abuser and he's dead and gone now. But I I put the cross of Jesus Christ in front of that because I'm a sinner saved by grace. No, yeah, my sin, I never did anything like that. But God's blood is good. And God, I put my abuser in hit God's hand, who is just and righteous and will not be mocked. That's what really, really helped me first. Michael Chestnut: Mm. Well, you know, ⁓ Mark, I wanna ask you this too with it because the forgiveness part. Some men are gonna struggle with that. You know? And I think the hardest part is is just getting started. Because once you can once you get can get some momentum, it it starts working its way out, right? But a lot of men stay stuck. And exactly for what you said just a minute ago, because you know, there's they're still seeing red. Pastor Mark Sowersby: Course. I struggled with it. Yeah. That's right. That's right. Of course. Of course. Michael Chestnut: They're still living the hurt. They're still right in the middle of the pain. So how did they get started? Pastor Mark Sowersby: Right. This for me it didn't start with my abuser. It started with me going to Christ. It started with me going to the Word of God. It started, it did, you know, the the outflow of my relationship with Jesus was the forgiveness. You know, I it wasn't s it wasn't linear, right? It wasn't, I'm gonna forgive my abuser. It was I'm gonna seek God. And God took all my junk and all my excuses and all my fears and all my mixed up. But you know, I came to a place realizing. even into my forties. You know, I hadn't been abused, physically abused in since I was fourteen. And I'm not making light of that, but I was still dealing with I was still waking up and my abuser still had space in my head. He still had space in my life and I didn't want that. I I'm here I was a father of four. I've married you know my wife didn't want that. I I you know I was a pastor I'm preaching and I used to skip over these sermons about forgiving, right? You know If you can't forgive your brother, how can God forgive you? I I'm not preaching that because I still had it inside me. So what had really what happened, and I say that, is I didn't focus on, ⁓ God, help me be such a good person that I can forgive the man who stole a pound of flesh from me and sold me and raped me. No, God, I'm not that righteous, man. I am not that good. But when I sought the Lord, and God didn't say the first day, hey Mark. Go forgive this. God said, You love me? And then it was a journey. You know, sometimes when I'm preaching, I say this. You know, some of that advice I got when I was a kid, somebody said, Mark, you know, if you have the faith of a mustard seed, you can move a mountain. I used to think to myself, what does that mean? Like I now I know it means measure and size and big and small. But when I was 15 years old, I had no clue what that meant. Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Pastor Mark Sowersby: So when I went to the Lord and I started this journey, I said, God, I want to have a I want to have faith to move the mountain. And my mountain was forgiveness. But I don't know how to do it. I don't even know if I want to do it. God said to me in my heart and through his word, he said, Mark, let's not worry about the mountain today. Let's learn how to move the pebble. That's all God had me focus on was the pebble. Then the pebble became the the stone, and the stone became the rock, and the rock became the boulder, and the boulder became the mound. And the Michael Chestnut: Mm. Pastor Mark Sowersby: Mound became the hill, and the hill became and eventually metaphorically, one day I was standing in front of the mountain. And I said, God, how am I going to do this without you? He said, How'd you move the pebble? I said, Well, that was you. That wasn't me. And how'd you move the stone and the rock and the mountain? I said, Well, that was you, God. It was never me. I learned how to trust you doing the little things. He said, You saw me move all that. Now we're going to move this. And right before my abuser died, the Lord brought me to see my abuser. He is rattled riddled with a disease and the only thing that still worked with him with him was his mouth. He had no control of his faculties and he was in a a rehab nursing home and and I didn't want to go. I didn't want to go to that place. I didn't want to knock on that door. I didn't want to go and see him. But the Holy Spirit quickened me to go. And I remember driving you know I knew the town so well. I used to drive two streets away just because I didn't want to go. But one day God wins and I found myself entering his His room, and I walked in in the same insults and the same lies and that familiar evil tone that called out my name. And I looked at him, not to have chit chat or not because I'm a good person. I was there only because I believe God told me to go there. And I said to him, I said, You know, I forgive you because Christ forgave me. He mocked me, told me that's not rude, true. Take my fake, phony religion out the door. And he left, and I left with him laughing. And I thought to myself, Lord, why did I go through that? Like what and I and again, metaphorically, I felt like the Lord said to me, You you weren't just speaking to your abuser. You were speaking to fear. You were saying, Fear, you have no more hold on me, because Jesus Christ has a hold on me. It doesn't mean I never get afraid or put my foot in my mouth or do dumb things. It just means that fear that my abuser controlled me with, that echoed into my life, into my 40s. And I wrote my book at 50. So I was. But echoed into my life, I really felt by the blood of Jesus Christ and the word of the testimony, I had victory in Jesus' name. Michael Chestnut: Mm. Well, you know, I I was sitting here thinking, ⁓ while you're talking, our church we just started ⁓ celebrate recovery this past year and ⁓ I'm I'm leading the men's group and ⁓ The pain I s I I I see with other guys who are l I mean, they're gonna listen to this today. And I know some of they have heard the the same the same things. ⁓ you know, some of the things that echo is, you know, what constantly is told to them is, you know, why can't you just shake it off? Just shake it off. Get get over it, right? ⁓ Pastor Mark Sowersby: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Michael Chestnut: But ⁓ it and I understand that to a degree too. but I think about your book, Forgiving the Nightmare. And the problem is reliving the nightmare and letting it take captive over you and learning how to move do those first small steps that you said. I think that's it's some really great advice, focusing on these small things because I I know several guys, I need for me myself. ⁓ I battled with suicidal ideology for a long time. And there wasn't a day go by since I was a young kid until in my fifties when I finally dealt with it that I didn't wake up every day and say, I hate me. I wish I was dead. Because and I didn't even know why, because Mark, I really had put that out of my head. Pastor Mark Sowersby: Hmm. Sure, sure, of course. Michael Chestnut: I I didn't even think about the abuser. I don't know I it wasn't until I went through counseling that I realized I've n I've never I've never spoke his name. I've never spoke this to anybody. And it held me captive. And it was it's so for me, you know, when I'm thinking about the title of your book book, Forgiving the Nightmare, you know, ⁓ I know some guys are are still struggling in the midst of that nightmare. Pastor Mark Sowersby: Yeah. Again, that's where I was. And I'm not trying to say this book is some kind of ⁓ perfect, you follow every T and everything will be great. My book I hope brings us to Christ, helps us walk that walk in Jesus Christ. I hope my book echoes people to say, Listen, there's no magic spell, there's no magic wand. It's hard, you know, and many of us have self-medicated i i drugs, alcohol, or donuts. You know, that was my self-medicating, you know. I didn't score on the street corner and say, hey man, what do you got? I went to Dunkin' Donuts. I went to the donut shop going, give me a dozen, you know. ⁓ so we all find our our we all cover up with our own vices because the pain's so hard. And yeah, again, I I hope you know that story when I walked into his room. That was years. ⁓ this story I tell you is years of of going through processes of one step forward and two steps back. You know, this was this wasn't just kumbaya moment where I Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Pastor Mark Sowersby: I tittued on the tulips. You know, this was me wrestling with myself and and and if you know what the abuse user gave me was that low it's that low self-esteem and that poor that insecurity and that that I you know lack of. I felt like I was worthless most of my life. Like I felt like something on the bottom somebody's shoe, you know, the bottom of their shoe. I'd walk in a room, feel like I had nothing to offer anybody. ⁓ not that I feel like I have a great answer now, but You know, I I don't think I'm the worst guy that ever lived. I'm sure not the best, but I'm sure I'm not the worst. You know, I love my wife, love my kids, I'm paying the bills and and lifting up the name of Jesus. And and I know there's victory. And sometimes when we hear somebody's story, listen, I heard victory stories and I'd go, yeah, but you don't know me. Yeah, that's good for you, Jack. Like, yeah, you know, that's but you don't know my story and how my mom and you know, my mom stayed with him until they both got sick. My mom never divorced them. Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Pastor Mark Sowersby: My mom knew the story. She stayed with them. You know, that was another level of, you know, I didn't know my my my I didn't know my birth father. I was born from an affair. You know, again, then I was sold to other men to molest me in those seven years. So there's a lot of facets and depths of this story. But I kind of kept going to God in the process of forgiving. I wish I could write a book to say A, B, and C. Yeah. Wouldn't it be great? But it really is. Michael Chestnut: Wouldn't that be great? Pastor Mark Sowersby: Seek ye first the Lord God and bring him our messes. You know, if you came to our church ⁓ on Sunday, you might be hear me say this often: We don't live perfect lives, we live forgiven lives, you know. And that forgiveness starts with you know telling God, here's the need, here's the hurt, here's help me find a way. And God is so gentle with us, you know. God is just so gentle, and he brings us on those journeys. To have our ears listening to what is life and not death brings us to the scriptures. And sometimes we think that mountain is so big, so big, but one step at a time, one step at a time. And congratulations, starting celebrate recovery. I've spoken to a lot of celebrate recovery ⁓ groups and organizations. And to be honest, many ⁓ of the addictions, not all, there's always always different, but many of them stem from a pain that you and I had to experience. Michael Chestnut: Yep. Unfortunately those those traumas are going to come out through different ways. And I and I realize that to be my case, right? And one of the things, you know, we're definitely gonna put a link for your book in here, but I I think one of the things too I'd love to hear from you too is, you know, God I know that God took me through what I did. Pastor Mark Sowersby: That's right. Yeah. Thank you. Michael Chestnut: Being on the other side now, being able to share my story, has a and I can't even explain it, but it has allowed peace in my life now. And you know, when I'm sitting across having coffee with someone and I'm getting to hear their story, and I'm getting to tell and show what God did in my life, it's so great to me that. Pastor Mark Sowersby: Amen. Amen. Yeah, I get it. Michael Chestnut: You know, 20 years ago, I God, I could not see this version today where you would take what I went through and all the stupid things I did in my life too, and now allow me to help someone else and to make it good and to use it for your glory. Right. ⁓ but maybe you could help share that the hope too right now for others watching that. Pastor Mark Sowersby: Amen. Amen. Sure, sure. I just want to let you know I yeah, in the season of me walking through this and journeying through it, you know, I had my days when I shook my fist to heaven and go, where were you? You know, why did why did you let this guy come into my home? Why why'd you let him? You know, all those ugly and hard questions I ask God, how can you not? You know, just because I'm a Christian, I didn't shut off my brain, you know, I I I you know, I'm a Christian who is wounded, I'm a believer who is hurt. Michael Chestnut: Right. Pastor Mark Sowersby: And I cried out to my heavenly father and and he met me in that place. He met me in that struggle. So I want you to know the answer he gave me, and I think the answer that he gives many of us is always different because it reflects our our story. It reflects why and if and how and what. And and the answer I got from me was perfect for me. Now, if I said it to somebody else, they probably that's crazy. But it was the answer that that satisfied me. And I and what happened is. I felt first of all that ⁓ that I went through this because the enemy knew how God was going to use me. You know, and the enemy's been trying to attack me since the minute I was born. You know, I believe the enemy knew that that God was going to use me to proclaim his word and lift up his name. And the enemy wanted to destroy me. Now now some people think, ⁓ that's wishful thinking. It was the right answer for me. And that's all I was seeking, right? The answer that would give me peace. Now Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Pastor Mark Sowersby: The journey of that hope is like you said, ⁓ you know, we go through our we go through a mess and God gives us a message. We go through a test and God gives us a testimony. You know, the back of my book, ⁓ I just didn't want to write it as a memoir or some some ⁓ kind of but the back of my book, I kind of put my pastor hat on a little bit. And I I have a thing called trail markers. Ten markers that I keep before me every day. How's my prayer life? How's am I reading his word? Do I got somebody in my life that can, you know, read my mail and and you know talk straight to me and say knock it off bonehead you know I got people in my life like that. So w way I thought about that is that, you know, I I think that when we go through journeys, we can leave trail markers for other people. You know, have you ever been on a path and they're like danger or don't go that way or because somebody walked it before us, right? Somebody found out there was danger. Somebody found out the cliff is right there. So they put up a sign going, hey Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Pastor Mark Sowersby: And I think that's what I like to think about our testimonies. And in that place, you know, we can find hope, not hope because of what we went through. Not that we are glad what we went through it, but it's a part of our story. It's a part of our narrative. And if we can leave some trail markers for other guys, and we're not perfect people, only God is perfect. But if we could say to people, here's some trail markers, you know, hey, it's dangerous if you go to the right, it's dangerous if you go to the left. Hey, the clift is too close. And we leave some trail markers for guys that are followed behind us. And hey, if you go further, if you go bigger, let me know. I'm not, you know, I'm I'm a sinner saved by grace. And I'm healed because of the blood of Jesus Christ. But if I my story can resonate with one, if my story can help somebody find some that hope, that peace to help us not hate ourselves every day. And love the Lord God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. Well, to be honest, for many of my years, if I loved my neighbor like I love myself, I would have hated my hated my neighbor. And we see that in our culture now. But I would say to you that it the only way we can love ourselves is to love God first. Because God reminds us that He doesn't make junk, that He has a plan and a purpose for our life. And our worst days and our worst parts of our life. Doesn't have to be the identity of my life. You know? Hallelujah. Michael Chestnut: Amen. Amen. Man, Mark, thank you so much. Because man, I totally agree with you because iron definitely sharpens iron, right? And we need more men. We need to have more authentic, honest conversations like this. We need to have other real men in our lives that we can say the ugly to. So we can one get past the ugly. Pastor Mark Sowersby: Amen. That's right. Michael Chestnut: So that the enemy doesn't no longer what I love is the enemy for f forty some years owned my story. Pastor Mark Sowersby: Mm. Michael Chestnut: But once I was able to put light on it and speak truth to someone, all the ugly, all the shame, all of it, all the stuff that I was embarrassed of, once I was able to speak that to another person, to another man, not be judged, but be prayed over, God owned started owning my story. Pastor Mark Sowersby: Yes. That's right. Michael Chestnut: And my best friend Shame and Guilt packed up and moved out. You know, and I I appreciate you sharing that today because I know there's men listening that I can even put by name who can identify with the story that you gave today, right? But the hope is in Jesus and the success is in Jesus of what of what our future looks like. You're a pastor now, author, helping other men. Pastor Mark Sowersby: Mm. Michael Chestnut: You know, and it's naive of us to think that God doesn't have a plan for us. We can I could always see it for everyone else, but I couldn't see that I was redeemable. So for that guy listening today that feels that way, I want you to know you're redeemable. You definitely are redeemable. And like you, I like what you said, God doesn't make junk. ⁓ but God God may need to refine us. And that journey is long and it hurts. Pastor Mark Sowersby: Yeah. Amen. Amen. Amen. Yes. Yes. Michael Chestnut: But my family now is reaping the rewards of that. So thank you again, Mark, for for being on here today, for sharing your story with us. Pastor Mark Sowersby: Amen. Amen. That's right. That's right. ⁓ thank you so f so much for allowing me to share the testimony of Forgiving the Nightmare and for allowing me to share about our ministry, Forgiving the Nightmare. We really appreciate it. And may the Lord be with you. God bless, brother. Michael Chestnut: Hey, thank you. And ⁓ before we go, I do want to ask you a little bit, one more question. Tell tell us a little bit more about the ministry. Pastor Mark Sowersby: Sure. ⁓ Forgiving the Nightmare is a ministry that we launched about five years ago when our first book came out. And we just saw the need for guys to hear the story, for people to hear the story. It's not just a story of abuse, it's a story of forgiveness. You know, and all of us have gone through a nightmare. When I say nightmare, I mean anything the enemy has used to hold us down and hold us back and to lie to us. So many of us have dealt with child abuse, but I'm sure there's a billion other nightmares that show up. But God wants to set us free. And before you know it, the Lord just started to open up doors for us to be able to share the testimony. We were able to go on the 700 Club and and to be on some other networks, Christian-based networks, and and to kind of lift up his name. And now we go out and speak and we get to share different churches and different organizations, to share about the hope that's found in Jesus Christ. And that's where we keep it. You know, if you read my book, it's not about the abuse. I share a little bit to kind of say I ⁓ went through it. But I want to talk about that journey of forgiveness. So you can check us out at forgivingthenightmare.com. Forgiving the nightmare.com. You'll see some ugly videos of me and ⁓ see the other book I wrote. Let's see. There it is. ⁓ here letters to the weary is a devotion my wife and I wrote together. 21-day devotion. ⁓ just again, kind of coming beside people in a Bible kind of sense. Yeah. And then our book, Forgiving the Nightmare. So ⁓ you know. We'd love to check you out. Find us on Facebook, find us on Instagram, forgiving the nightmare. Michael Chestnut: Well, thank you. We'll definitely put all that into our link so everyone can ⁓ make sure to go check that out. And Mark again, thank you. Inspiring conversation today. and if this touched you, leave a message in the comments below. Let us know how this has ⁓ affected you today and share it with someone else that you know who needs to hear the message that God's bringing out today. Mark again, thank you. And to my list till next time, keep being Intentional.