Latest / Monero Talk / The Effect of Centralized Exchanges Delisting Monero w/ Nate EPI #295

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The Effect of Centralized Exchanges Delisting Monero w/ Nate EPI #295 · Monero Talk

• 1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:05,240 all right Nate we actually ended the 2 00:00:03,959 --> 00:00:08,000 talk and then we're having some back 3 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:11,960 room talk and I realized I never asked 4 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:15,879 you directly what is your Monero price 5 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:19,439 prediction for 2024 yeah so I think it 6 00:00:15,879 --> 00:00:22,480 depends on the effect of the D listings 7 00:00:19,439 --> 00:00:24,920 if the D listings happen and there's 8 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:29,480 nobody else that's selling paper shares 9 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:33,719 of XMR then I think we see maybe like 10 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:36,760 six 100 from speculation just a guess um 11 00:00:33,719 --> 00:00:39,600 if we don't and somebody you know some 12 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:42,120 exchange still keeps XMR around and is 13 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,840 selling shares that don't exist or coins 14 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:46,480 that don't exist that no one withdraws 15 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:49,120 then something like 250 just based on 16 00:00:46,480 --> 00:00:51,360 actual adoption because BTC fees are 17 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:54,680 already through the roof this year XMR 18 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:57,680 is the front runner to get that that 19 00:00:54,680 --> 00:01:00,719 volume and so we know that Kraken is 20 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:03,320 really the only large C calized exchange 21 00:01:00,719 --> 00:01:05,159 that's remaining right after after 22 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:07,360 binance right I mean I'm sure there's 23 00:01:05,159 --> 00:01:09,240 some other relatively large ones but I 24 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:13,119 would have to Kraken is 25 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:15,880 the so it comes down to will Kraken be 26 00:01:13,119 --> 00:01:18,080 be a paper Monera right and it doesn't 27 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:21,439 seem like they will be from what we know 28 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:23,079 of Kraken and the founders of Kraken and 29 00:01:21,439 --> 00:01:25,000 right yeah I mean they've they've only 30 00:01:23,079 --> 00:01:27,159 been kraken's only been a good 31 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:29,439 experience for me personally using it 32 00:01:27,159 --> 00:01:31,640 and also I think they're very aligned 33 00:01:29,439 --> 00:01:34,600 you know they're founder is very aligned 34 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:38,000 with crypto values so I'd be surprised 35 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:39,840 if they were selling paper shares but um 36 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,119 but we'll see we'll see yeah I mean I 37 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:44,040 don't know what the Asian market looks 38 00:01:41,119 --> 00:01:47,880 like either who knows um what what kind 39 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:50,640 of K coin clones pop up to uh serve 40 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:53,640 serve the community and whether or not 41 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:55,399 paper Monero is gonna still be prevalent 42 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:59,039 you think initially there'll be some 43 00:01:55,399 --> 00:02:01,920 volatility where we see a decline as as 44 00:01:59,039 --> 00:02:03,960 people perhaps get scared and 45 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,560 then yeah I think I think we're going to 46 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,640 see a significant drop I don't think 47 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:10,239 it'll be 50% but I think there will be a 48 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:13,080 drop in Monero price um following D 49 00:02:10,239 --> 00:02:14,640 listings 50% oh man well I'll I'll be 50 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:17,560 holding guys you can count you count on 51 00:02:14,640 --> 00:02:19,840 me I'm not going anywhere yeah I think I 52 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:22,959 think it'll be significant maybe not 50% 53 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:24,879 but but it'll be substantial we'll see 54 00:02:22,959 --> 00:02:26,280 we'll see I think it'll bounce pretty 55 00:02:24,879 --> 00:02:28,560 hard if it 56 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:30,760 does Nate man thank you again and thanks 57 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:33,239 for jumping on and uh answering the the 58 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:36,280 2024 question appreciate it Douglas it's 59 00:02:33,239 --> 00:02:36,280 been a pleasure man thank 60 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:43,159 you Monero talk is sponsored by Cake 61 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:45,319 wallet a trustless open- source wallet 62 00:02:43,159 --> 00:02:47,440 that gives you the keys to your crypto 63 00:02:45,319 --> 00:02:51,319 invoice donate and trade your Monera 64 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:53,959 with peace of mind piece of cake and by 65 00:02:51,319 --> 00:02:56,720 stealthy X an instant exchange where 66 00:02:53,959 --> 00:02:59,599 privacy is a top concern go to stealth 67 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:02,319 ex. to instantly exchange between Monero 68 00:02:59,599 --> 00:03:04,200 and and 450 plus assets without having 69 00:03:02,319 --> 00:03:06,920 to create an account or register and 70 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:08,599 with no limits making stealthy x a 71 00:03:06,920 --> 00:03:10,959 simple way to purchase Monero with 72 00:03:08,599 --> 00:03:13,400 crypto 73 00:03:10,959 --> 00:03:15,560 anonymously Monero talk is also made 74 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,959 possible from contributions by viewers 75 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:20,720 and listeners like you and supporting us 76 00:03:17,959 --> 00:03:23,280 is easier than ever by typing in Monero 77 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:27,360 talk. crypto in your mono.com or cak 78 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:27,360 wallet send address field to send us a 79 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:33,760 tip 80 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:36,519 this week on Monero talk Douglas tuman 81 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:38,280 interviews neat AKA eat sleep crypto a 82 00:03:36,519 --> 00:03:40,439 privacy Advocate and censorship 83 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:43,159 resistance maximalist who writes about 84 00:03:40,439 --> 00:03:45,159 crypto evaluations and tokenomics the 85 00:03:43,159 --> 00:03:47,640 two discuss needs price analysis of 86 00:03:45,159 --> 00:03:49,480 Monero particularly the value derives 87 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,840 from the unique utility it offers as 88 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:54,200 untraceable digital cash and given the 89 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:56,079 usage of Monero Beyond speculation what 90 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:59,040 he predicts will be in store for Monera 91 00:03:56,079 --> 00:04:00,400 in 2024 once it's delisted from binance 92 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:05,120 and much more 93 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:05,120 more narrow Talk starts 94 00:04:06,300 --> 00:04:09,360 [Music] 95 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:16,799 now Nate what's going on man not too 96 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:19,440 much Douglas good to see you man I hear 97 00:04:16,799 --> 00:04:22,000 I hear the frogs in the 98 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:24,440 background I was so hoping I was so 99 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:26,040 hoping the frogs wouldn't show up but um 100 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:28,320 it's funny everybody else thinks they're 101 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:31,600 Birds but no they're the K frog it's 102 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,600 native to Puerto Rico 103 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:38,560 yes um what's going on what's uh tell 104 00:04:35,759 --> 00:04:41,960 tell us your your crypto story before we 105 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:44,600 get get too far I honestly just found 106 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:46,280 you on Twitter maybe a month or so ago 107 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,960 you had posted a 108 00:04:46,280 --> 00:04:52,960 video where you kind of get into your 109 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:56,840 your economic thesis on on monero's 110 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:58,160 value on its utility um but yeah give us 111 00:04:56,840 --> 00:05:02,680 give us a quick intro before we get into 112 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:05,000 all that stuff yeah awesome so um yeah 113 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,800 background uh I guess I've been in the 114 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,520 space you know my name's Nate I go by 115 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,919 eat sleep crypto I've been in the space 116 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:13,120 for the last 10 years now and writing 117 00:05:10,919 --> 00:05:16,720 about cryptocurrency valuation and 118 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:19,560 tokenomics for the last six almost seven 119 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:22,880 on eats sleep crypto.com so you can find 120 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:25,560 the history of my insights there and um 121 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:28,360 I guess I found Bitcoin in 122 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:30,039 2013 I was really passionate about 123 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:33,160 economics at the time was studying 124 00:05:30,039 --> 00:05:36,120 Information Systems in school and my 125 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:38,080 friend told me about this new thing that 126 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:40,520 was being used to pay for things on the 127 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:42,319 dark Nets and I was like what you know 128 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:44,639 how has this not been shut down he told 129 00:05:42,319 --> 00:05:46,680 me about the Silk Road and uh he's like 130 00:05:44,639 --> 00:05:48,360 yeah it's been going for a couple years 131 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,880 and um and I was like all right well I 132 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,759 have to check out this currency that 133 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:54,600 they're using to pay for things because 134 00:05:51,759 --> 00:05:57,600 the US government must not be a fan of 135 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:59,919 this dark net market and um so I dug 136 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:02,080 into Bitcoin a little bit and uh you it 137 00:05:59,919 --> 00:06:04,919 was on the Bitcoin talk forums and and 138 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:08,080 kept my ears U Loosely attuned to the 139 00:06:04,919 --> 00:06:10,960 space until 2017 the Ico boom came 140 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:12,479 around and um I started to take a 141 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,280 critical look at all the tokens that 142 00:06:12,479 --> 00:06:16,440 were being put out there and I said what 143 00:06:14,280 --> 00:06:17,960 gives any of these things value and that 144 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:20,520 sort of led me to the question of what 145 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:22,240 makes a currency valuable to begin with 146 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:25,039 and I started putting out proforma 147 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:27,400 models valuations of cryptocurrencies 148 00:06:25,039 --> 00:06:29,919 based on their uses in the protocol or 149 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:32,120 the economy that they're in and and uh 150 00:06:29,919 --> 00:06:34,400 for Monero that's mainly as a medium of 151 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:36,560 exchange for Bitcoin for a long time it 152 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,680 was mainly as a medium of exchange but 153 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:41,880 we all know that that pivoted around 154 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:43,520 2015 2016 people started trying to limit 155 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:46,759 the block size and you know the whole 156 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:48,560 deal but um yeah and so that kind of 157 00:06:46,759 --> 00:06:51,400 question of what makes a currency 158 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:53,560 valuable has led to this investigation 159 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:56,639 and specialization that I have now at 160 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:59,720 token dynamics that is um you know 161 00:06:56,639 --> 00:07:01,560 trying to engineer value into tokens um 162 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:04,039 by including them in the protocol that 163 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:06,520 they're used in in specific ways so 164 00:07:04,039 --> 00:07:07,759 that's kind of my background and um I 165 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,680 guess other people have takeen to 166 00:07:07,759 --> 00:07:11,479 calling this tokenomics I've been 167 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:14,400 writing about it before we really had a 168 00:07:11,479 --> 00:07:16,199 term but I prefer tokenomics to describe 169 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:18,400 the way that a currency is used or a 170 00:07:16,199 --> 00:07:21,720 token is used in a protocol or an 171 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:23,560 economy that causes it to ACR value um 172 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:26,879 so that's kind of uh it's kind of my 173 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:30,400 background um big Austrian Economist uh 174 00:07:26,879 --> 00:07:32,720 early Ron Paul fan and um you know from 175 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:35,479 from that libertarian side of of the 176 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:38,840 crypto space so I resonate with your 177 00:07:35,479 --> 00:07:41,240 show and a lot of your viewers as 178 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:45,639 well awesome Sunita I think it's it's in 179 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:47,960 my inside jacket I I told her grab my 180 00:07:45,639 --> 00:07:49,960 phone grab my phone I I feel naked 181 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:52,639 without it so I could look things up as 182 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:54,520 as we talk um wait what is the the 183 00:07:52,639 --> 00:07:57,280 company that you're with now it's called 184 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:59,960 or the project yeah so I started token 185 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:02,120 Dynamics in July after uh couple years 186 00:07:59,960 --> 00:08:05,400 of casually advising projects on 187 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:08,039 tokenomics so token Dynamics were just 188 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:10,800 all lowercase one word on Twitter um 189 00:08:08,039 --> 00:08:12,759 token dynamics. XYZ so we're a 190 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:15,520 collective of token economists and we 191 00:08:12,759 --> 00:08:17,280 designed protocols with NY for the value 192 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:20,000 that we can ACR to a token and the 193 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:23,759 alignment of the incentives of protocols 194 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:25,039 mostly ethereum and Cosmos based that um 195 00:08:23,759 --> 00:08:27,000 you know that cause them to be 196 00:08:25,039 --> 00:08:29,039 unexploitable and and censorship 197 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:31,560 resistant that's our main focus is we 198 00:08:29,039 --> 00:08:34,080 want protocols to be built to last the 199 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:36,839 next several decades if not to the next 200 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:40,159 century rather than just pumping dumps 201 00:08:36,839 --> 00:08:42,399 that are made to pay off VCS or you know 202 00:08:40,159 --> 00:08:44,720 dump on ret what kind of Protocols are 203 00:08:42,399 --> 00:08:46,680 you guys building given like what and 204 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,200 how is it different differentiating 205 00:08:46,680 --> 00:08:49,920 itself from what already exists and the 206 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,920 utility that's already being provided 207 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:55,000 out there yeah so we're we have a couple 208 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:57,600 sides of of our shop right we've got 209 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:59,399 like development side and that's mostly 210 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:02,839 focused on hackathons putting out some 211 00:08:59,399 --> 00:09:05,920 MVPs so recently we at eth online 212 00:09:02,839 --> 00:09:09,680 created a an incentive system that pays 213 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:12,279 out the people who pin a file on 214 00:09:09,680 --> 00:09:14,480 filecoin virtual machine for hosting the 215 00:09:12,279 --> 00:09:17,320 front end of a defi protocol and we use 216 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:20,000 the real yield of that def5 protocol and 217 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:23,600 pay out users across chains so filecoin 218 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:27,000 virtual machine is an evm that um pays 219 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:29,680 you for hosting files in the ipfs and it 220 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:32,640 has the same key derivation as e because 221 00:09:29,680 --> 00:09:35,240 it's an evm so you can pay out from a 222 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:37,480 real yield uh from a def protocol on 223 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,760 polygon that's getting you know $10,000 224 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:41,839 in fees you can distribute that directly 225 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:44,680 to the people who are pinning that front 226 00:09:41,839 --> 00:09:46,320 end on the ipfs or actually on filecoin 227 00:09:44,680 --> 00:09:48,920 they're different and I often complate 228 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,880 them but um you know we're focused on 229 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:53,040 things that are solving real problems 230 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,880 and that was one of our recent MVPs that 231 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:57,839 we put out at hackathon we called it pin 232 00:09:54,880 --> 00:10:00,360 dependent and I'm sure people can dig it 233 00:09:57,839 --> 00:10:02,399 up in in my Twitter or token Dynamics 234 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:05,440 Twitter history we tweeted a bit about 235 00:10:02,399 --> 00:10:07,560 it but um you know that was one and then 236 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,320 uh another focus of ours is in our 237 00:10:07,560 --> 00:10:11,720 Consulting we're helping out some Oracle 238 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:14,079 list defi protocols so people that are 239 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:17,519 not relying on centralized Oracle 240 00:10:14,079 --> 00:10:19,079 providers to um you know provide a price 241 00:10:17,519 --> 00:10:21,519 fee or something like that we're trying 242 00:10:19,079 --> 00:10:26,279 to make things that are really 243 00:10:21,519 --> 00:10:27,920 robust so o overall I mean um you you I 244 00:10:26,279 --> 00:10:30,279 feel like you talk about this a lot what 245 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:33,920 your writings and stuff just utility 246 00:10:30,279 --> 00:10:35,920 right this concept of what utilities do 247 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,800 you think 248 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:39,440 cryptocurrency provides what are what 249 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:41,160 are the different different types of 250 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,399 thing obviously digital cash I I would 251 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:45,320 think you're you're it would be up there 252 00:10:43,399 --> 00:10:47,959 on your list but what else do you see 253 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:49,560 crypto as being able to provide yeah 254 00:10:47,959 --> 00:10:51,040 yeah that's a great question um I've 255 00:10:49,560 --> 00:10:53,560 been thinking about this a lot for the 256 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:55,200 last six months to a year and especially 257 00:10:53,560 --> 00:10:56,920 I think this comes up in the bare Market 258 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:59,040 where people are like why are we here 259 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:01,200 you know Eric vor's had that phenomenal 260 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:03,240 speech asking why are we here and then 261 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,120 answers it with basically censorship 262 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:07,079 resistance right that is the number one 263 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:09,800 thing that blockchains blockchainbased 264 00:11:07,079 --> 00:11:12,200 applications blockchainbased currencies 265 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:13,920 can provide that nothing else can we 266 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,959 don't have any other technologies that 267 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:18,600 can provide censorship resistance for 268 00:11:15,959 --> 00:11:21,399 these kinds of um you know for arbitrary 269 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:23,079 applications and so that is the main 270 00:11:21,399 --> 00:11:25,320 unique value proposition of 271 00:11:23,079 --> 00:11:28,120 cryptocurrencies and there are maybe two 272 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:30,720 others I would say um you know public 273 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:33,320 auditability for public blockchains is 274 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:36,240 something of a unique value proposition 275 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:39,200 but it's not that great of a value 276 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,680 proposition right like there's not there 277 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:44,480 in my mind there are not that many 278 00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:47,320 things that benefit tremendously from um 279 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:49,120 from auditability by by the public maybe 280 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,959 you know if you wanted to say we want to 281 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,800 audit the fed and we want to be able to 282 00:11:50,959 --> 00:11:54,760 see their reserves then maybe a 283 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:56,399 blockchain um you know binding the 284 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,760 government to a blockchain could be good 285 00:11:56,399 --> 00:11:59,279 for that reason but I think it's 286 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:02,440 problematic for a number of other 287 00:11:59,279 --> 00:12:04,240 reasons and um you know as as Monero 288 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,240 proponents I don't think we want to see 289 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:09,320 governments getting any more involved 290 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:11,360 than they already are in uh in 291 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,880 blockchains and digital currencies yeah 292 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,720 yeah yeah I mean there's always been 293 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,760 right like Bitcoin for governments and 294 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:18,760 Manero for the people right is is like 295 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:21,920 some people thought about it in those 296 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:23,959 terms um transparency for governments 297 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,720 and privacy for people right right 298 00:12:23,959 --> 00:12:28,959 exactly like Julian Assange you know 299 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:30,680 it's um privacy for for the week or the 300 00:12:28,959 --> 00:12:32,600 individual and transparency for the 301 00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:34,560 powerful and I I tend to resonate with 302 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:38,120 that I think that's um a good starting 303 00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:41,440 point but um yeah so so main value 304 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:44,240 propositions right I would say um this 305 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:46,199 this meme is becoming like open finance 306 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:49,040 um where the term the public audit 307 00:12:46,199 --> 00:12:50,720 ability is is turning into uh what we're 308 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,680 seeing ethereum pivot toward which is 309 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,480 open finance the inclusion of real world 310 00:12:52,680 --> 00:12:57,440 assets and and things like that they're 311 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:59,519 tracking assets on a blockchain um but 312 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,240 the the challenge of trying to paint 313 00:12:59,519 --> 00:13:03,880 blockchains so the problem with painting 314 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:06,920 blockchains as uh things that enable 315 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:10,120 open finance and and tokenized assets is 316 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:13,760 that these um any use case that 317 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:16,560 blockchains have also includes 318 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:20,959 censorship resistance right like the 319 00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:23,480 applications that open finance might um 320 00:13:20,959 --> 00:13:25,399 might use or involve are also going to 321 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:28,160 inherit censorship resistance and that 322 00:13:25,399 --> 00:13:31,079 actually diminishes the uh value 323 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:33,639 proposition that they're purported to 324 00:13:31,079 --> 00:13:35,880 provide so but the main main value 325 00:13:33,639 --> 00:13:37,320 proposition is censorship resistance and 326 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:40,279 that will be found in money that'll be 327 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:42,480 found in the kind of data that goes on 328 00:13:40,279 --> 00:13:43,880 blockchains if there are sufficient fees 329 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:46,000 paying for those and I know that's a 330 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,959 whole uh there's a whole argument about 331 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,040 whether data should be on blockchains 332 00:13:47,959 --> 00:13:50,720 you know what kind of data and 333 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:53,720 everything like that but the main value 334 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:55,440 proposition of cryptocurrencies and 335 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,600 blockchainbased applications is 336 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,880 censorship 337 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:02,199 resistance so you obviously also think 338 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:04,240 is that that there should be multiple 339 00:14:02,199 --> 00:14:06,959 cryptos right that should there isn't 340 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:08,880 just one crypto that's going to master 341 00:14:06,959 --> 00:14:09,880 the art of censorship resistance is that 342 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,639 there can be multiple different 343 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,440 cryptocurrencies that are benefiting 344 00:14:11,639 --> 00:14:15,040 from censorship resistance is that is 345 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:18,959 that true and and like to what to what 346 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:20,360 degree do you see that being is is there 347 00:14:18,959 --> 00:14:22,560 going to be tons and tons of different 348 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:26,000 cryptos or or is it going to boil down 349 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:29,920 to a few that offer the most 350 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:32,839 utility yeah I think um so viously not a 351 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:35,279 maximalist of any kind I'm a I'm an 352 00:14:32,839 --> 00:14:37,959 individual freedom maximalist and so I 353 00:14:35,279 --> 00:14:41,000 think competition tends to be good for 354 00:14:37,959 --> 00:14:43,720 the consumer and uh the more competition 355 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:46,480 not necessarily the more players but the 356 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:49,560 easier it is to compete in this Arena 357 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:51,759 the better and for that we want to have 358 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,199 a lot of different ideas being tried a 359 00:14:51,759 --> 00:14:56,360 lot of different currencies in the 360 00:14:53,199 --> 00:14:59,519 market and I suspect they'll consolidate 361 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:01,600 around a few major currencies and there 362 00:14:59,519 --> 00:15:04,000 will maybe be a long taale of 363 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:07,040 blockchains the argument against that 364 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:09,519 might be one of um you know that 365 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:13,279 considers Economic Security because a a 366 00:15:09,519 --> 00:15:16,920 chain with a low hash rate or a low cost 367 00:15:13,279 --> 00:15:19,519 to uh double spend essentially is going 368 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:22,240 to be relatively insecure so even if 369 00:15:19,519 --> 00:15:25,120 there are even if there is a long tail 370 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:27,279 of blockchains those might not be uh 371 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:29,079 interoperable with each other and 372 00:15:27,279 --> 00:15:31,360 diminishing their utilities so there 373 00:15:29,079 --> 00:15:33,399 there are network effects at play but I 374 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:37,360 suspect we'll see something like five to 375 00:15:33,399 --> 00:15:39,480 10 major chains um within 10 years maybe 376 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:41,959 20 years you know that the market takes 377 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:44,040 a while in crypto yeah right it takes a 378 00:15:41,959 --> 00:15:46,560 while but then you know everything 379 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:49,399 happens all of a sudden eventually right 380 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:51,880 um so where do you see Monero fitting in 381 00:15:49,399 --> 00:15:54,399 in in your kind of portfolio of 382 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:58,199 important projects things to keep an eye 383 00:15:54,399 --> 00:16:00,440 on yeah so I think Monero is probably 384 00:15:58,199 --> 00:16:03,040 the most most important digital cache 385 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:05,920 that we have um it's it's clearly got 386 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:08,560 the network effects and I think it's the 387 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:12,000 best-in-class Privacy for the liquidity 388 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:15,000 the depth of liquidity that it has and 389 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,839 um you know that liquidity can come from 390 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,759 centralized exchanges it can come from 391 00:16:16,839 --> 00:16:21,920 decentralized exchanges but at this rate 392 00:16:19,759 --> 00:16:24,880 I don't think another privacy coin is 393 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,880 likely to De Throne 394 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:31,759 Monero sweet sweet and so do you um so 395 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:35,519 we say privacy coins right so do you see 396 00:16:31,759 --> 00:16:37,839 Bitcoin also functioning as digital cash 397 00:16:35,519 --> 00:16:40,399 or do you think it it you know just 398 00:16:37,839 --> 00:16:43,240 provides other utility yeah well like 399 00:16:40,399 --> 00:16:47,279 you said I think um there are some 400 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:49,800 people that say Bitcoin for transparency 401 00:16:47,279 --> 00:16:52,399 or Bitcoin for for the government or for 402 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:54,160 the public for the big Banks and Monero 403 00:16:52,399 --> 00:16:57,279 for the individuals or for people who 404 00:16:54,160 --> 00:17:00,079 care about privacy but um I don't see 405 00:16:57,279 --> 00:17:02,880 that actually playing out in Bitcoin 406 00:17:00,079 --> 00:17:05,240 space like the more uh you know I love 407 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:07,839 seeing I think it's coin cards has a 408 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:10,160 monthly update and they show every month 409 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:13,640 that Monero is gaining on Bitcoin in 410 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:15,959 terms of who's using it and um initially 411 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:18,559 I I assumed that this was people wanting 412 00:17:15,959 --> 00:17:20,280 to take their privacy back but I think 413 00:17:18,559 --> 00:17:23,439 it could actually just be people that 414 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:26,120 are looking for little fees yeah ability 415 00:17:23,439 --> 00:17:29,320 yeah exactly like Monero has some of the 416 00:17:26,120 --> 00:17:31,039 cheapest fees of any chain and um I 417 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,840 haven't done an analysis on this but I 418 00:17:31,039 --> 00:17:36,000 wouldn't be surprised if Monero had the 419 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:37,799 cheapest fees per depth of liquidity per 420 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,960 unit of liquidity that there is in the 421 00:17:37,799 --> 00:17:42,280 market um you know there are a lot of 422 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:44,000 coins with cheaper fees Nano is is dirt 423 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:46,200 cheap but I don't think there's as much 424 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,520 volume on something like Nano or 425 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:53,000 something like Bitcoin cash for example 426 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:54,919 so um yeah I mean monero's monero's got 427 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:58,760 a a pretty good value proposition at 428 00:17:54,919 --> 00:18:01,360 this point for for uh everyday users for 429 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:03,799 sure for sure 430 00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:05,679 um and so interesting because when I 431 00:18:03,799 --> 00:18:09,320 when I first discovered you you were 432 00:18:05,679 --> 00:18:12,240 kind of talking about the base utility 433 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:14,000 that that Monero offers right and then 434 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:16,960 knowing what that base utility is being 435 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:20,760 able to derive its its valuation right 436 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:23,159 using what is it MV equals PQ right or 437 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:26,679 um and basically uh determining that 438 00:18:23,159 --> 00:18:28,480 there there's a base value to a uh a 439 00:18:26,679 --> 00:18:31,039 cryptocurrency particularly one that's 440 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:34,440 taking on the utility of digital cash 441 00:18:31,039 --> 00:18:37,240 right and that value is based on the the 442 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:41,240 the amount of uh the market that it's 443 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:43,039 serving right um and and so we had 444 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,919 already I think I think I had already oh 445 00:18:43,039 --> 00:18:47,120 no you reached out to me when B the 446 00:18:44,919 --> 00:18:48,960 binance thing happened right because 447 00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:50,400 that is this is the perfect example of 448 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,559 it now right so we should this should be 449 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:54,480 an interesting 450 00:18:51,559 --> 00:18:56,760 experiment um we're saying Monero has 451 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:59,640 some base value and you can get into a 452 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:01,120 little more detail on on what how you 453 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,559 how you're deriving that or how one 454 00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:05,880 should derive that and I guess 455 00:19:03,559 --> 00:19:08,200 technically we should be seeing that 456 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:10,280 potentially seeing that base value uh 457 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:12,320 come into play soon right if Monero is 458 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:14,600 ultimately delisted from all 459 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:16,440 exchanges yeah well I have some good 460 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:20,240 news and bad news on that point but yes 461 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:24,039 Monero does have some base value um so 462 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:26,159 in uh I guess 2018 I think it was Chris 463 00:19:24,039 --> 00:19:28,559 berneski put out evaluation of a 464 00:19:26,159 --> 00:19:30,320 fictional internet currency so a 465 00:19:28,559 --> 00:19:32,919 currency that was used to pay for the 466 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:35,400 internet he called it inet and he used 467 00:19:32,919 --> 00:19:37,919 the equation MV equals PQ which dates 468 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:40,520 all the way back to John Stewart Mill 469 00:19:37,919 --> 00:19:43,400 Milton fredman popularized this in the 470 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:45,600 later part of the 20th century and I've 471 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:47,240 adapted it to valuing various 472 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:50,039 cryptocurrencies because many 473 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:52,720 cryptocurrencies are proper currencies 474 00:19:50,039 --> 00:19:55,520 and there are precedents for valuing 475 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:58,480 currencies in traditional Finance so you 476 00:19:55,520 --> 00:20:01,159 can apply the equation MB equals PQ the 477 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:03,159 equation of exchange to Monero with 478 00:20:01,159 --> 00:20:07,080 adjustable assumptions I did this back 479 00:20:03,159 --> 00:20:08,760 in 2019 and um and calculated out a what 480 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,000 I call a price floor so this is the 481 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:13,640 minimum possible value for a currency to 482 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:16,280 sustain based on its use in a protocol 483 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:19,039 and for Monero this is its use in the 484 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:21,520 economies that it's used in so the the 485 00:20:19,039 --> 00:20:23,880 simple way to put it is that a currency 486 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:26,600 has to be worth at least as much as all 487 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:28,960 of the things that it buys in some time 488 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:31,320 frame divided by the number of times 489 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:34,159 each unit is used more than once that's 490 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:35,960 called velocity the FED tracks the St 491 00:20:34,159 --> 00:20:38,440 Louis fed tracks the velocity of the 492 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:40,480 dollar it's somewhere around five or six 493 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,559 currencies cryptocurrencies tend to be 494 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,760 higher because people have less of a 495 00:20:42,559 --> 00:20:47,320 Time preference for holding they want to 496 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:50,000 get rid of things that are more volatile 497 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,039 um luckily for Monero and and actually 498 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,919 maybe 499 00:20:51,039 --> 00:20:57,640 counterintuitively it has been uh 500 00:20:53,919 --> 00:20:58,679 relatively less volatile because it is 501 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:03,840 traded 502 00:20:58,679 --> 00:21:06,400 and actually sold short or there are um 503 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:09,280 I guess the thesis of moneron was that 504 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:11,600 currency uh exchanges were selling 505 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:13,400 shares of Monero that didn't exist coins 506 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:15,720 that actually didn't exist so this was 507 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:19,559 kind of like um 508 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:22,960 2022 maybe moneron popped uh popped up 509 00:21:19,559 --> 00:21:24,799 on Reddit uh April 2022 and so I I wrote 510 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:27,919 this article it was right before the 511 00:21:24,799 --> 00:21:28,760 first Monero Topia or right around yeah 512 00:21:27,919 --> 00:21:31,200 yeah 513 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:33,400 perfect yeah and I'm you know grateful 514 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:37,240 that everyone took action on that and 515 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:39,640 that kind of movement took C right yeah 516 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:42,080 and we we saw was a quick Spike and then 517 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,760 binance froze the uh the withdrawals 518 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,559 again and that's exactly what you would 519 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:49,840 ex expect if they were running a 520 00:21:45,559 --> 00:21:52,120 fractional Reserve System to sell um you 521 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:54,600 know P essentially paper shares of 522 00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:57,880 Monero um I'm going to loop back around 523 00:21:54,600 --> 00:22:00,640 to MV equals PQ the equation of exchange 524 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:03,279 but um I I do want to say that there 525 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:05,840 there is ample there are ample analoges 526 00:22:03,279 --> 00:22:09,039 in traditional finance a friend of mine 527 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:11,559 actually sued JP Morgan uh for 528 00:22:09,039 --> 00:22:13,039 manipulating the silver Futures Market 529 00:22:11,559 --> 00:22:17,960 back in 530 00:22:13,039 --> 00:22:20,640 2010 20 I think it was 2010 to 2012 or 531 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:24,039 so and that's because you know what he 532 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:26,840 was alleging is that uh JP Morgan and 533 00:22:24,039 --> 00:22:29,520 and likely other big Banks but JP Morgan 534 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:31,679 is the largest in the US we're selling 535 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,440 paper shares of silver to suppress the 536 00:22:31,679 --> 00:22:35,159 price because if someone wants to buy 537 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,960 and then you say well here you go and 538 00:22:35,159 --> 00:22:39,279 they don't actually ask for the 539 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:42,960 underlying asset like asking for the 540 00:22:39,279 --> 00:22:45,880 physical silver or asking for the XMR 541 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:48,159 coins then you can just sell them some 542 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,760 currency that never gets redeemed and 543 00:22:48,159 --> 00:22:53,200 you you are able to run a very 544 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:56,760 profitable operation that way so um it's 545 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:58,760 what banks legally do right traditional 546 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,919 banking system works 547 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:03,440 exactly and that's that's how Banks work 548 00:23:00,919 --> 00:23:05,080 with the fractional Reserve System with 549 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,840 with your dollars if you deposit you 550 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:10,080 know they'll have a reserve requirement 551 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:12,120 10 20% and they'll lend out the rest and 552 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,400 it's supposed to be that if you deposit 553 00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:16,799 $100 they're supposed to keep 10 or keep 554 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:20,159 20 but what it turns out to be is that 555 00:23:16,799 --> 00:23:21,600 you deposit 10 and they loan out a 100 556 00:23:20,159 --> 00:23:23,799 so 557 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,919 um and so that's kind of what we've been 558 00:23:23,799 --> 00:23:29,520 seeing with Monero is is at least my 559 00:23:25,919 --> 00:23:32,760 thesis this is validated by Monon and I 560 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:36,360 think it's it's going to be potentially 561 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:38,279 validated by these D listings um 562 00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:40,240 actually likely it's it's either going 563 00:23:38,279 --> 00:23:43,200 to be validated or invalidated by these 564 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:45,840 D listings if there are no Fiat 2 XMR 565 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:49,000 on-ramps anymore I expect Monero to 566 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:52,279 become much more volatile and to the 567 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:54,640 upside and the downside um and so here's 568 00:23:52,279 --> 00:23:57,039 here's kind of how MV equals PQ plays 569 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:59,799 into it there is a minimum possible 570 00:23:57,039 --> 00:24:02,840 price for every token based on their use 571 00:23:59,799 --> 00:24:05,840 in an economy or a protocol and for 572 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:09,480 Monero it's used to buy things on 573 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:11,880 various exchange or uh not exchanges 574 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:15,840 maybe exchanges that have XMR pairs but 575 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:19,840 marketplaces of different kinds and um 576 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:23,159 so when XMR is used to buy these things 577 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:25,360 somebody has to buy that XMR for BTC for 578 00:24:23,159 --> 00:24:28,360 dollars for something else and that is 579 00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:31,679 essential demand that is placing con buy 580 00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:35,000 pressure on the token in aggregate the 581 00:24:31,679 --> 00:24:37,440 amount of purchases are going to 582 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:41,279 correspond to the value of the goods and 583 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:43,360 services that are being paid for in XMR 584 00:24:41,279 --> 00:24:47,000 so that's kind of like the axiomatic 585 00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:49,279 framework that we dark Market do I mean 586 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:51,799 we we have a what I'm sure you've done 587 00:24:49,279 --> 00:24:54,000 some research what can what do you think 588 00:24:51,799 --> 00:24:58,440 is the is the best estimate for what the 589 00:24:54,000 --> 00:25:01,559 Monero dark Market usage market cap is 590 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:07,200 like you know give us a yeah it's it's 591 00:25:01,559 --> 00:25:09,960 so um it's really hard to tell um I I 592 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:13,320 think it's in the order of 10 billion a 593 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:15,720 year but I don't I don't really know 594 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:18,159 because when you say dark Market it's 595 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:20,600 like what is a dark Market because if 596 00:25:18,159 --> 00:25:22,799 you ask the government dark markets are 597 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,799 just the things that people are buying 598 00:25:22,799 --> 00:25:27,399 or at places people are buying things 599 00:25:24,799 --> 00:25:30,080 they don't want them to buy but right if 600 00:25:27,399 --> 00:25:33,200 you look at the kinds of markets that 601 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:37,000 need privacy coins that's a lot greater 602 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:39,840 of a market like I have um you know this 603 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:44,000 kind of the future thought here for 604 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:47,919 later on but um one of 605 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:50,279 my core beliefs about Monero is that 606 00:25:47,919 --> 00:25:52,919 people will always need privacy coins 607 00:25:50,279 --> 00:25:56,399 and that's because various agencies have 608 00:25:52,919 --> 00:25:59,240 black book budgets and or black budgets 609 00:25:56,399 --> 00:26:01,399 where they they can't actually use 610 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,960 dollars or they can't use digital 611 00:26:01,399 --> 00:26:06,520 dollars suitcase they traditionally use 612 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:09,520 suitcases right 613 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:11,679 yeah right and so the higher you know 614 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,120 the more complex the threat model the 615 00:26:11,679 --> 00:26:16,919 greater the need for something like 616 00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:19,480 Monero or uh in Monero with extra steps 617 00:26:16,919 --> 00:26:22,440 um you know there's there's 618 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:25,799 uh point being there is significant 619 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:29,279 demand for a very private currency and 620 00:26:25,799 --> 00:26:31,679 if we expand our concept of dark markets 621 00:26:29,279 --> 00:26:34,720 in five 10 years when maybe there's a 622 00:26:31,679 --> 00:26:37,360 cbdc instead of $100 bills that you can 623 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:40,080 stuff into a duffel bag then Monero 624 00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:42,520 becomes even more attractive so I don't 625 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:44,880 know whether those same markets that 626 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:47,600 would be used in 10 years where Monero 627 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:50,559 would be used in 10 years exists today 628 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:53,279 but um when I think about the total 629 00:26:50,559 --> 00:26:58,919 volume of Monero and where it's flowing 630 00:26:53,279 --> 00:27:02,720 I imagine some of that is is um you know 631 00:26:58,919 --> 00:27:05,279 being used in these kinds of markets and 632 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,679 um for those purposes but we don't know 633 00:27:05,279 --> 00:27:11,480 because monero's private by default and 634 00:27:07,679 --> 00:27:14,679 uh so back of the napkin you know if we 635 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:18,080 use best guesses right uh using MV 636 00:27:14,679 --> 00:27:19,799 equals PQ assuming uh an addressable 637 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,440 Market or an Market that's actually 638 00:27:19,799 --> 00:27:25,919 being uh used of let's say what would 639 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:27,640 you say you said 10 billion right uh and 640 00:27:25,919 --> 00:27:29,279 some other good assumptions on terms of 641 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,080 the amount of Monero that's actually in 642 00:27:29,279 --> 00:27:33,720 circulation I don't know what what you 643 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:36,200 would put that at I think 644 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:38,440 that's go 645 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,080 ahead what is your number what are you 646 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:44,200 uh what are you value what would you 647 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:44,200 value Monero at using 648 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:51,760 mvpqb the bad news side um is I think 649 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:54,440 it's probably fairly priced right now 650 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:56,360 because what we see is that when Bitcoin 651 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,440 goes up and Monero wants to go with it 652 00:27:56,360 --> 00:28:02,799 it tends to snap back 653 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:04,840 um pretty quickly and um I think that 654 00:28:02,799 --> 00:28:08,000 the kind of paper shares that are being 655 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:10,200 sold on binance could be pushing Monero 656 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,960 to its price floor um but 657 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:16,519 counterintuitively that makes it a 658 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:19,240 better currency and so what I'm actually 659 00:28:16,519 --> 00:28:22,480 uh less looking forward to uh than than 660 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:25,279 most people in the Monero ecosystem is 661 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:27,960 these D listings um I think D listings 662 00:28:25,279 --> 00:28:29,799 could make XMR much more volatile 663 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:32,840 because you don't have someone that's 664 00:28:29,799 --> 00:28:36,200 selling paper shares into speculators 665 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:38,039 and um that's crazy yeah so that's 666 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:41,200 that's kind of my thesis right and we'll 667 00:28:38,039 --> 00:28:42,799 see if this plays out but and then so it 668 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:45,519 also I mean basically you're just saying 669 00:28:42,799 --> 00:28:47,679 it makes it less liquid right well yeah 670 00:28:45,519 --> 00:28:51,799 it makes it less liquid but but also 671 00:28:47,679 --> 00:28:55,840 think about if we all of a sudden had uh 672 00:28:51,799 --> 00:28:59,600 50% greater demand for XMR that would 673 00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:02,159 push the price uh in a in a fair market 674 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:04,120 in a in well maybe not in a in a free 675 00:29:02,159 --> 00:29:06,600 unregulated market but in let's say in a 676 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:09,120 fair market that would push the price up 677 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:13,200 to from what's it 170 right now let's 678 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:16,760 say that would push the price to 190 um 679 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:19,000 the the effect if binance is selling 680 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:22,080 paper shares to all of those speculators 681 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:25,440 who are not then withdrawing the XMR to 682 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:28,799 spend it somewhere is that the price 683 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:32,360 stays the same binance is able to sell 684 00:29:28,799 --> 00:29:34,159 at you know 170 sell all at 170 create a 685 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:36,399 giant cell wall and then sell it to 686 00:29:34,159 --> 00:29:40,120 people who never withdraw or they're 687 00:29:36,399 --> 00:29:43,360 able to sell at allow it to go up to 175 688 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:46,360 180 and then sell it there back down to 689 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:48,880 170 where the essential demand is coming 690 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,559 up to push the price of Monero up to 691 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,240 keep it up at the level that it needs to 692 00:29:50,559 --> 00:29:57,600 be to withdraw it and then spend it on 693 00:29:53,240 --> 00:30:00,440 these markets and um so but would I mean 694 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:02,240 in my intuition and I guess you know you 695 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:05,279 could explain why it's otherwise would 696 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:07,039 be that it would maybe initially you 697 00:30:05,279 --> 00:30:07,960 know as soon as this happens you'll see 698 00:30:07,039 --> 00:30:10,320 some 699 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,799 volatility but then it will dampen out 700 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,880 because it's going to tend towards its 701 00:30:11,799 --> 00:30:15,760 true value and now it's true value will 702 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,480 be even more true than it was because 703 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,440 it's literally going to be based on the 704 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:22,399 demand of people needing to go to go 705 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:24,720 acquire Monero for purposes of using it 706 00:30:22,399 --> 00:30:28,519 and they'll use decentralized exchanges 707 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:31,480 or whatever to do so so would in that 708 00:30:28,519 --> 00:30:35,159 kind of take us to the base utility 709 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:36,679 price yeah it would and um but I think 710 00:30:35,159 --> 00:30:39,000 that utility price is going to be 711 00:30:36,679 --> 00:30:41,559 slightly lower because I do expect with 712 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,960 the difficulty The increased difficulty 713 00:30:41,559 --> 00:30:46,360 of getting Monero that something like 714 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:50,600 Bitcoin even though it's not even a good 715 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:52,640 substitute will be used for a portion of 716 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:55,919 the same purchases that Monero is being 717 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:57,600 used for now um you know if you consider 718 00:30:55,919 --> 00:30:59,240 that there's a a good number number 719 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,159 there's some number of people that are 720 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:04,200 using Monero because it's cheaper than 721 00:31:01,159 --> 00:31:05,960 Bitcoin but accepted in the same places 722 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,360 and they can get it on binance you know 723 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:11,960 they could get both then maybe when 724 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:14,519 Bitcoin has a $50 fee they'll go back to 725 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:16,360 bitcoin because $50 is cheaper than 726 00:31:14,519 --> 00:31:19,679 spending the three hours that it's going 727 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:20,880 to take them to or potentially longer 728 00:31:19,679 --> 00:31:22,679 that it's going to take them to get a 729 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:27,279 hold of Monero so I don't know how much 730 00:31:22,679 --> 00:31:29,240 it'll dampen the XMR price um but I do 731 00:31:27,279 --> 00:31:32,320 think it'll it'll alleviate some of the 732 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:35,360 demand for XMR that is essential 733 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:38,200 demand yeah yeah it's going to be uh 734 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:40,120 wild whatever it is right so how fast do 735 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,360 you think we see we start to see the 736 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:45,840 effects of this binance 737 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:47,679 delisting yeah good question I think um 738 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,360 probably pretty quickly and there's a 739 00:31:47,679 --> 00:31:51,320 handful of other exchanges that I've 740 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:54,240 seen in the news that are delisting I 741 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:56,120 believe okx was another and uh they 742 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,880 weren't just delisting Monero they were 743 00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:02,399 delisting Dash they're delisting I saw 744 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:04,200 zcash is getting Dlisted somewhere um 745 00:32:02,399 --> 00:32:06,600 which it you know makes me wonder what's 746 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,799 going on behind the scenes that's 747 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:11,320 pressuring these exchanges to delist 748 00:32:08,799 --> 00:32:13,200 privacy coins because no no exchange 749 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:16,840 wants to delist a currency that they're 750 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:19,600 making money on um but but what's kind 751 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:23,919 of funny to me is like Monero has been 752 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:25,960 the outspoken Pro privacy like privacy 753 00:32:23,919 --> 00:32:27,720 by default coin and these other coins 754 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,600 have been kind of hedging their and cow 755 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:33,840 to to various regulators and saying well 756 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:37,159 we're not always private you can be 757 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:38,960 compliant with zcash or with other 758 00:32:37,159 --> 00:32:41,360 currencies and they're still getting 759 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,480 Dlisted so it's helped them you know 760 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:46,679 they've completely nuked their value 761 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:50,039 proposition and um and they're still you 762 00:32:46,679 --> 00:32:50,039 know not getting any of the 763 00:32:54,279 --> 00:33:01,480 benefits do you love coffee and Monera 764 00:32:57,159 --> 00:33:01,480 as we do consider making gratuitous 765 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:09,519 toorgle cash tip directly to the farmers 766 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,880 that made it 767 00:33:09,519 --> 00:33:15,220 possible proceeds help us grow this 768 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:18,359 channel gratuitous and 769 00:33:15,220 --> 00:33:18,359 [Music] 770 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:27,039 Monero we we always knew this was coming 771 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:29,559 right you know be careful what you wish 772 00:33:27,039 --> 00:33:31,320 for type of thing right so um we always 773 00:33:29,559 --> 00:33:33,880 knew this was coming I I certainly you 774 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:36,600 know I welcome it as an inevitability 775 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:39,200 and the the right direction for for the 776 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:41,559 project and overall building a strong 777 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:43,120 Foundation that then just grows into a 778 00:33:41,559 --> 00:33:46,080 behemoth of a thing that can't be 779 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:48,600 stopped right because now now we're 780 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:51,200 we're still we're being molded in we're 781 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:53,760 still in the early ages here with Monero 782 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:57,519 and we're being molded into a more 783 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:58,960 decentralized environment untethered to 784 00:33:57,519 --> 00:34:02,399 centralized 785 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:04,039 systems so it's going to turn I think 786 00:34:02,399 --> 00:34:05,360 ultimately Monero into the most 787 00:34:04,039 --> 00:34:09,960 censorship 788 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:12,919 resistant form of form of crypto agreed 789 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:15,560 be my thesis right so now I don't know 790 00:34:12,919 --> 00:34:18,480 you know how long it takes for that to 791 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:20,639 now become something that's worth a lot 792 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:23,000 more than it is today in terms of 793 00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:24,200 utility I could see it happening what 794 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,359 what what's your thinking there do you 795 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:29,359 see a scenario where the price starts to 796 00:34:26,359 --> 00:34:33,359 go up to and goes up it becomes harder 797 00:34:29,359 --> 00:34:34,800 like maybe uh the value of Monero or the 798 00:34:33,359 --> 00:34:37,359 market that it's currently addressing is 799 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:39,079 is larger than we may think right people 800 00:34:37,359 --> 00:34:42,480 have a real need for it they need to go 801 00:34:39,079 --> 00:34:45,280 get it to use it but it's not so easy to 802 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:47,599 get it so that friction actually adds a 803 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:50,040 premium to the price of Monero what what 804 00:34:47,599 --> 00:34:53,679 do you think of that potential scenario 805 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:55,520 yeah I think um I see this in evolving 806 00:34:53,679 --> 00:34:58,480 in kind of three steps I completely 807 00:34:55,520 --> 00:35:00,599 agree with you that um this will harden 808 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:03,119 Monero and make it more censorship 809 00:35:00,599 --> 00:35:05,640 resistant and is overall probably a good 810 00:35:03,119 --> 00:35:08,160 thing I think Defi and crypto in general 811 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:12,480 has been extremely weakened by people's 812 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:16,599 attempts to um work with regulators and 813 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:18,440 their um you know General pursuit of 814 00:35:16,599 --> 00:35:20,240 profit instead of values and I don't 815 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,839 think those two are mutually exclusive 816 00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:24,880 but Monero has certainly held up the 817 00:35:21,839 --> 00:35:27,800 values and um you know sometimes to the 818 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:31,240 exclusion of of uh the profitable 819 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:33,640 alternative you know basically provoking 820 00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:35,160 exchange D listings by not saying we're 821 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,040 going to change the protocol so that 822 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:41,480 it's slightly compliant or that you can 823 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:45,240 have um yeah um so I I see this in kind 824 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:48,520 of two phases maybe three um the first 825 00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:51,280 is this is happening at at a great time 826 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:53,160 um in terms of like other crypto 827 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,800 development the infrastructure has been 828 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:58,640 developing so we're seeing sidex is 829 00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:01,040 around the corner there's Maya protocol 830 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:03,280 which I I'm not sure if is going to 831 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:06,079 include Monero at any point but we've 832 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:08,079 got Sarai coming around the corner is 833 00:36:06,079 --> 00:36:10,520 Maya is derived from thorchain is like 834 00:36:08,079 --> 00:36:12,760 basically a fork Thor essentially yeah 835 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:14,400 it's uh Thor Thor Chain's hot little 836 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:19,359 sister is the 837 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:21,160 main so they're um they are basically uh 838 00:36:19,359 --> 00:36:22,760 they're taking on all the smaller cap 839 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,520 coins but they're plugging in with 840 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:27,760 cardano they're plugging in with 841 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:29,520 arbitrum um so for for the viewers that 842 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,560 might not know these thorchain is a 843 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,839 cross-chain decentralized exchange 844 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:36,800 you've got Rune the base token as half 845 00:36:33,839 --> 00:36:38,280 of every pair in a liquidity pool and uh 846 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,720 trades route through those so if you 847 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:43,400 want to trade BTC to eth you trade BTC 848 00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:46,319 to run Rune to eth and then pay fees 849 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:48,839 along the way and um really interesting 850 00:36:46,319 --> 00:36:51,960 system Maya protocol is a copy of that 851 00:36:48,839 --> 00:36:56,400 that has a handful more and Sarai is 852 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:58,839 going to be eth BTC Monero and D to 853 00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:00,520 start with potentially the Sarai token 854 00:36:58,839 --> 00:37:03,240 in the middle I'm not sure exactly how 855 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:06,040 they're architecting it but um very 856 00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:08,119 interested to uh see and and hopefully 857 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:11,640 help Luke and the rest of the team with 858 00:37:08,119 --> 00:37:14,720 that but um yeah perfect timing right 859 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:16,240 like centralized exchanges are failing H 860 00:37:14,720 --> 00:37:18,920 they're you know that was kind of the 861 00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:22,040 the start of the cycle and now they're 862 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:24,079 delisting privacy coins but we're going 863 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,640 to have we are about to have something 864 00:37:24,079 --> 00:37:28,000 where Monero can be traded 865 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,680 permissionless with extremely deep 866 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:34,440 liquidity I think it's likely that a lot 867 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:36,079 of people will LP on Sarai um so that's 868 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:40,119 a few we have we have Sarai that's 869 00:37:36,079 --> 00:37:44,640 coming up um then we have 870 00:37:40,119 --> 00:37:46,839 havo right havo is U is that a like a 871 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:49,000 software like a local desktop software 872 00:37:46,839 --> 00:37:50,240 GUI kind of thing yeah it's it's like a 873 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:53,599 fork AB 874 00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:56,280 bisque a Monero based bisque that's been 875 00:37:53,599 --> 00:37:58,839 being worked on for quite some time and 876 00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:00,800 uh by by talented developers you know a 877 00:37:58,839 --> 00:38:01,880 lot of time they're putting into it so 878 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:05,560 that that should be that should be 879 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:07,040 interesting as well uh and what do oh 880 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:09,160 and then Atomic swaps right they've been 881 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:12,280 around for a while in Monera but haven't 882 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:15,280 really been made usable yet we're seeing 883 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:17,079 Samurai wallet and Bitcoin to Monero 884 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,400 Atomic swaps I'm sure I don't know if 885 00:38:17,079 --> 00:38:20,560 you saw like today they were tweeting 886 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,040 about it now my understanding is 887 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:24,040 initially it's for the purposes of just 888 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:26,160 getting rid of toxic change or something 889 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:28,880 but it's I would assume that's going to 890 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:30,880 evolve into people natively like using 891 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,800 that for for swapping into an out of 892 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,119 Monero that'd be silly if it if it 893 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,800 doesn't turn into that so that's 894 00:38:34,119 --> 00:38:39,760 interesting too and that's a nice bridge 895 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:42,400 to the Bitcoin privacy community and all 896 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:45,400 of Samurai you know that whole 897 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:47,920 tent right yeah yeah I mean I hope it 898 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,640 develops into that as well um I did see 899 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:52,319 that on Twitter today it's really 900 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:54,680 exciting I think all this infrastructure 901 00:38:52,319 --> 00:38:57,400 popping up that's allowing Monero to 902 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:59,560 permissionless interoperate with other 903 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:02,200 blockchains another you know going back 904 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:04,720 to the point of having multiple chains 905 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:06,920 is a great thing like this is this is 906 00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:09,800 awesome for Monero is that other chains 907 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:13,040 exist that can plug into Fiat on ramps 908 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:15,599 and also be traded for XMR in a way 909 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:17,079 that's that's virtually untraceable 910 00:39:15,599 --> 00:39:20,160 right like if you have Atomic swaps no 911 00:39:17,079 --> 00:39:23,119 one knows that chain a and chain B these 912 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:26,160 transactions going here to here are 913 00:39:23,119 --> 00:39:29,000 going to be trades across chains that's 914 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:31,280 that's a brilliant um breaking of the 915 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,640 link Inn 916 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,520 chainalysis yeah yeah yeah I'm just 917 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:39,319 thinking here I also wonder if you know 918 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:42,079 a a strien effect eventually comes into 919 00:39:39,319 --> 00:39:45,200 play uh where people start wondering why 920 00:39:42,079 --> 00:39:47,720 why why Monero you know becomes headline 921 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:50,280 news you know Monero maybe delisting 922 00:39:47,720 --> 00:39:53,200 from binance won't be won't won't be 923 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:55,640 seen by normies but you know maybe once 924 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,960 countries start to start to try to ban 925 00:39:55,640 --> 00:40:02,160 it you you know people start to ask 926 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:04,480 questions yeah I mean definit right like 927 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:06,079 I think that's certainly um in the 928 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,359 libertarian crowd you know it's it's 929 00:40:06,079 --> 00:40:10,920 like the government doesn't want us to 930 00:40:07,359 --> 00:40:13,760 have this why why not let's look into it 931 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:15,960 and um and I think that's becoming a a 932 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,839 large silent minority so we could see 933 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,240 some kind of striesand effect with 934 00:40:17,839 --> 00:40:23,440 Monero and um you know with the D 935 00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:26,560 listings XMR is going to be floating if 936 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:29,599 it were delisted from virtually all EX 937 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:31,920 changes um where where you know let's 938 00:40:29,599 --> 00:40:34,119 say the majority of volume is happening 939 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,800 on a decentralized Exchange price 940 00:40:34,119 --> 00:40:38,400 discoveries happening on a decentralized 941 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:40,200 exchange of some kind um then we are 942 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:43,119 going to see the price start to deviate 943 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:45,800 from its price floor and I think that 944 00:40:43,119 --> 00:40:49,480 will lead to what we saw with Bitcoin 945 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:52,319 the first two uh times that it spiked in 946 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:55,280 in public in the public eye was uh in 947 00:40:52,319 --> 00:40:59,119 2013 people started using Bitcoin on the 948 00:40:55,280 --> 00:41:01,160 Silk Road and from 2011 to 2013 and then 949 00:40:59,119 --> 00:41:02,560 people saw the price was going up and 950 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,359 then other people saw the price was 951 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,359 going up and it just started to go 952 00:41:04,359 --> 00:41:08,200 parabolic right and that all started 953 00:41:06,359 --> 00:41:11,079 because it was used as a medium of 954 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:12,920 exchange Monero could see the same thing 955 00:41:11,079 --> 00:41:15,520 now that price is not going to be 956 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:18,560 dampened by paper shares that are being 957 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:21,000 sold by binance and others the price can 958 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:22,560 actually go up because of speculation 959 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:25,000 and so we could see the same kind of 960 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,960 run-ups happening with XMR that we've 961 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:30,000 seen with Bitcoin in the past as long as 962 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:32,319 price Discovery is happening off 963 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:35,200 centralized 964 00:41:32,319 --> 00:41:38,720 exchanges yeah it was when Senator Chuck 965 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:40,200 Schumer was like going after Silk Road 966 00:41:38,720 --> 00:41:41,880 well that was one of the moments that I 967 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:44,960 think back to when I was like what's 968 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:47,280 this Bitcoin thing right uh I had heard 969 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:50,480 about it earlier before right and 970 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:51,760 stopped heard about it I just assumed 971 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,000 assumed it was something that could be 972 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,640 stopped I didn't know right I didn't 973 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,480 realize at that point there was a you 974 00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,119 know some had made some breakthrough and 975 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:02,400 invented a 976 00:41:59,119 --> 00:42:03,760 decentralized tech right so but that 977 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,960 goes to show you right so that was like 978 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:09,720 a mainstream moment um I think I think 979 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:13,000 we will start to see those with Monero 980 00:42:09,720 --> 00:42:15,079 when you see even even that right when 981 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:17,200 uh if it's not Chuck Schumer or somebody 982 00:42:15,079 --> 00:42:19,599 else Senator Warren you know might might 983 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:22,119 start to call it out by name at some 984 00:42:19,599 --> 00:42:24,119 point would love that I mean talk about 985 00:42:22,119 --> 00:42:27,559 a stri hend effect that would be that 986 00:42:24,119 --> 00:42:31,520 would be phenomenal um and I I think in 987 00:42:27,559 --> 00:42:34,480 either case I'm I'm pretty bullish on 988 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:36,800 uncensorable untraceable digital cache 989 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:42,040 because there will there is a massive 990 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:45,880 market for this um so in 2018 I did EV 991 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:48,839 valuation maybe late 2017 early 2018 did 992 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:52,359 a valuation of Bitcoin and I used the 993 00:42:48,839 --> 00:42:54,640 Swift um interbank it's the uh interbank 994 00:42:52,359 --> 00:42:57,680 exchange system so all the payments that 995 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:59,240 you route from um the US to Europe are 996 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,760 going to be going through Swift for 997 00:42:59,240 --> 00:43:03,920 example and there are there's something 998 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:07,119 like 10 quadrillion dollars a year 999 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:09,119 that's transacted in this system um if 1000 00:43:07,119 --> 00:43:12,200 you think about and so my basis for 1001 00:43:09,119 --> 00:43:14,000 Bitcoin valuation was this Swift system 1002 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:16,040 and I said if it was just processing 1003 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:18,319 Swift and has the same velocity as the 1004 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:20,800 dollar each Bitcoin is100 1005 00:43:18,319 --> 00:43:23,720 million that is not going to happen with 1006 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:26,280 Bitcoin at least not directly and unless 1007 00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:28,160 you know unless governments want to have 1008 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,680 everything be backed by Bitcoin and even 1009 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:34,280 then I'm not sure that the um volume 1010 00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:38,200 would translate but there is a sizable 1011 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:41,240 market for digital payments right and uh 1012 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:44,240 for payments that are not only digital 1013 00:43:41,240 --> 00:43:47,160 but also private and untraceable I think 1014 00:43:44,240 --> 00:43:48,960 there's at least the same size market 1015 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,839 right like if it's the same price people 1016 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:53,720 are going to opt for privacy where they 1017 00:43:50,839 --> 00:43:56,119 can get it um so I'm not saying that 1018 00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:59,480 Monero will reach aund million but 1019 00:43:56,119 --> 00:44:04,920 there's a huge market for something like 1020 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:08,040 XMR to become used as a Global Payments 1021 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:11,400 medium and um the things that that 1022 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:14,880 Monero has in addition to uh privacy 1023 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:17,400 that Bitcoin doesn't is the uh block 1024 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:20,200 size the adapted block size and they 1025 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:24,000 have basically solved scaling for a 1026 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:26,040 small you know a Theo set of people that 1027 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,319 want to use it today like Monero has 1028 00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:30,599 kept up with scaling in a way that 1029 00:44:27,319 --> 00:44:34,079 Bitcoin hasn't so I'm I'm very hopeful 1030 00:44:30,599 --> 00:44:35,920 for this um future adoption regardless 1031 00:44:34,079 --> 00:44:38,319 of whether it gets the striesand effect 1032 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:40,599 and other things but I I also suspect 1033 00:44:38,319 --> 00:44:40,599 that it 1034 00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:48,160 will where what what you know it's 1035 00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:51,400 when's New Year's tomorrow it's coming 1036 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:53,680 like yeah a couple days right 2023 is 1037 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:56,800 almost over what are your predictions 1038 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:59,480 for 2024 or 1039 00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:02,640 so I feel like crypto in general what do 1040 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:06,040 you think we might see yeah um 1041 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:07,720 counterintuitive things maybe let's see 1042 00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,079 I I'm always hopeful I'll start this off 1043 00:45:07,720 --> 00:45:11,520 with that I'm always hopeful that 1044 00:45:09,079 --> 00:45:13,079 privacy is gonna become like a a 1045 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,280 highlight you know that the Privacy 1046 00:45:13,079 --> 00:45:19,040 thesis is going to catch on um whether 1047 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:21,640 that's Monero or like um you know rail 1048 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:24,640 gun and knockturn on ethereum that are 1049 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:27,920 hiding balances or 1050 00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:30,200 um you allowing you to operate in defi 1051 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,960 privately there there's there's a bunch 1052 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:33,920 of privacy protocols that I'm really 1053 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:37,359 excited about that I think might catch 1054 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:39,359 some adoption um especially in in like 1055 00:45:37,359 --> 00:45:41,960 the cipher Punk circles the sort of 1056 00:45:39,359 --> 00:45:45,640 lunar Punk circles that are that are 1057 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:46,920 evolving in ethereum right now excuse me 1058 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:49,920 the other things that I think we're 1059 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:54,599 going to see are um cross chain 1060 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:56,880 decentralized exchanges like run Maya um 1061 00:45:54,599 --> 00:45:59,880 thorchain Maya protocol 1062 00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:02,800 Sarai I think these are going to become 1063 00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:05,440 not only contenders but but maybe even 1064 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:08,760 replacements for centralized exchanges 1065 00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:10,800 or at least I really like I think Joel 1066 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:13,720 Valenzuela the desert links has been 1067 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:16,359 talking about this uh saying that at 1068 00:46:13,720 --> 00:46:18,800 some point decentralized exchanges are 1069 00:46:16,359 --> 00:46:20,960 going to become the back end to 1070 00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:22,480 centralized exchanges where centralized 1071 00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:25,599 exchanges like binance are going to 1072 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:27,319 start to tap these for their liquidity 1073 00:46:25,599 --> 00:46:29,960 um that's a really great thing whether 1074 00:46:27,319 --> 00:46:32,839 Monero is listed on those dexes or not 1075 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:36,760 because Monero will be listed on dexes 1076 00:46:32,839 --> 00:46:38,520 that have pairs that tap into those um 1077 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:43,920 so that's you know one Trend that I'm 1078 00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:46,359 really excited for and I guess a third 1079 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:48,040 Trend that I'm looking at is sort of 1080 00:46:46,359 --> 00:46:51,400 like the the return of censorship 1081 00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:53,520 resistance as an ideal so vitalic uh 1082 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:56,680 wrote this article released it yesterday 1083 00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:58,760 called make ethereum Cipher Punk again 1084 00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:00,880 and that was so encouraging to see I was 1085 00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:02,800 thrilled you know came to the timeline 1086 00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,680 saw this it's like I've been trying to 1087 00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:06,680 say this all bare Market we need to 1088 00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:11,440 return to the values like crypto is 1089 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:13,520 about censorship resistance um and uh 1090 00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,960 and so that that was really exciting I 1091 00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:17,720 think we're going to see that in some 1092 00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:21,280 concrete ways so we're starting to see 1093 00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:23,480 that in just the the general attitude of 1094 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:25,880 of developers where they're saying let's 1095 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:28,520 develop censorship resistant protocols 1096 00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:31,640 rather than um you know authenticating 1097 00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:33,280 with the multisig or or sorry um you 1098 00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:36,680 know scroll funds with the 1099 00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:38,720 multisig uh or using a centralized price 1100 00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,839 feed I think there was a significant 1101 00:47:38,720 --> 00:47:43,800 reaction to real world assets being 1102 00:47:40,839 --> 00:47:48,000 suggested for defi so you know that was 1103 00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:50,599 some encouraging um some encouraging 1104 00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:52,280 hints that that I think we've seen But 1105 00:47:50,599 --> 00:47:54,160 the number of protocols that I've been 1106 00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:57,000 seeing that are calling themselves 1107 00:47:54,160 --> 00:48:01,000 Oracle lists or naming censorship 1108 00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:02,640 resistance in their bio has also been um 1109 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,319 you know really encouraging so I think 1110 00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:06,839 we're going to see a lot more protocols 1111 00:48:04,319 --> 00:48:08,720 focused on censorship resistance in in 1112 00:48:06,839 --> 00:48:10,960 defi in 1113 00:48:08,720 --> 00:48:13,640 particular all right good predictions 1114 00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:15,200 man I mean uh I think we we've been 1115 00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,960 waiting for these things for a while 1116 00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:19,760 right so we think now might finally be 1117 00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:22,960 the time where people start to a 1118 00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:25,200 Renaissance of of this this crypto 1119 00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:26,720 Anarchist vision of crypto we might we 1120 00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:29,319 might 1121 00:48:26,720 --> 00:48:31,480 I I mean I hope so right like we we've I 1122 00:48:29,319 --> 00:48:34,079 think there are some outstanding factors 1123 00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:36,200 that that could delay those but um like 1124 00:48:34,079 --> 00:48:40,280 the election in particular like I feel 1125 00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:43,079 like people politicians can't let the uh 1126 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:48,040 can't let 2024 be too bad because 1127 00:48:43,079 --> 00:48:51,960 they're trying to get reelected um so so 1128 00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:54,440 we might see I I do expect I I do expect 1129 00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:56,760 a bull run this year I'm not sure if I 1130 00:48:54,440 --> 00:49:02,720 think bitcoin's going to die double or 1131 00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:04,079 if it's going to um you know be a 2017 1132 00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:07,839 or a 1133 00:49:04,079 --> 00:49:09,839 2021 um but I do think we're looking at 1134 00:49:07,839 --> 00:49:11,839 at something of a bull market and 1135 00:49:09,839 --> 00:49:14,520 hopefully you know if things do get bad 1136 00:49:11,839 --> 00:49:16,960 if inflation gets really out of hand 1137 00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:20,280 this year or um you know some kind of 1138 00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:23,079 Black Swan events happen that uh that we 1139 00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:26,000 would see crypto as a response to that I 1140 00:49:23,079 --> 00:49:29,240 think um we can be a little more hopeful 1141 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:32,040 of that a little more expectant of that 1142 00:49:29,240 --> 00:49:33,920 because crypto this time you know this 1143 00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:37,480 cycle crypto is already in the public 1144 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:39,599 eye people understand what crypto is 1145 00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:41,280 they at least understand that it it 1146 00:49:39,599 --> 00:49:46,319 can't be stopped right it hasn't been 1147 00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:48,240 stopped yet and um and uh you know and I 1148 00:49:46,319 --> 00:49:50,880 think in general at at least in the 1149 00:49:48,240 --> 00:49:52,680 United States the public is coming 1150 00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:54,240 around to the idea that the government 1151 00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:57,680 doesn't have their best interest at 1152 00:49:54,240 --> 00:50:00,240 heart and so as as um Cipher punks and 1153 00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:02,119 and crypto anarchists I think it is 1154 00:50:00,240 --> 00:50:03,839 probably the right time to start pushing 1155 00:50:02,119 --> 00:50:05,680 the message out to the normies that 1156 00:50:03,839 --> 00:50:07,799 crypto is the solution to a lot of the 1157 00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:10,400 problems we have 1158 00:50:07,799 --> 00:50:13,200 today you think uh this year we start to 1159 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:15,160 see some bigger names mentioning Monero 1160 00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:17,920 like I'm waiting for people in the in 1161 00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:20,480 the in the broader Liberty space to 1162 00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:22,559 start mentioning it more by name I don't 1163 00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:25,720 know how if you're tuned into that or t 1164 00:50:22,559 --> 00:50:28,440 you know if you follow that yeah 1165 00:50:25,720 --> 00:50:30,640 libertarian right so yeah yeah I mean I 1166 00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:32,920 mean I'm I'm paying enough attention to 1167 00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:35,079 politics that I I could maybe recognize 1168 00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:37,960 some of the names of politicians but 1169 00:50:35,079 --> 00:50:40,319 like RFK RFK Jr 1170 00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:43,480 right well that would be phenomenal I 1171 00:50:40,319 --> 00:50:48,359 mean if RFK mentioned mentioned Monero 1172 00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:50,839 but I I think we yeah do right like uh 1173 00:50:48,359 --> 00:50:52,720 who's is any you do you think that could 1174 00:50:50,839 --> 00:50:55,079 happen in 2024 or even during the 1175 00:50:52,720 --> 00:50:57,119 presidential cycle I do yeah I mean I 1176 00:50:55,079 --> 00:50:58,720 don't know about on the debate stage in 1177 00:50:57,119 --> 00:51:02,280 the presidential cycle I feel like 1178 00:50:58,720 --> 00:51:04,040 monero's a little too nent for that but 1179 00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:06,960 I do think we're going to start to hear 1180 00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:09,119 it more mentioned um you know I can see 1181 00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:12,720 Elon Musk talking about Monero for 1182 00:51:09,119 --> 00:51:14,799 example and he might have already but um 1183 00:51:12,720 --> 00:51:17,520 I think you know people that are really 1184 00:51:14,799 --> 00:51:20,040 attuned to the crypto space all 1185 00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:23,000 understand that XMR is like where crypto 1186 00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:26,040 is headed um I feel like every Bitcoin 1187 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:28,319 maximalist is secretly also Monero Max 1188 00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:30,920 maximalist like they're they're like 1189 00:51:28,319 --> 00:51:32,680 Monero Monero on the street or Bitcoin 1190 00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:35,599 on the streets Monero on the sheets kind 1191 00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:38,520 of thing like they're they're secretly 1192 00:51:35,599 --> 00:51:41,599 they all have a lot of Monero bags and 1193 00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:43,480 they're they're just waiting for um you 1194 00:51:41,599 --> 00:51:45,520 know things to flip at least the Smart 1195 00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:47,839 Ones because the old school bitcoiners 1196 00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:51,920 for sure right like the ones that got 1197 00:51:47,839 --> 00:51:55,920 into it with that idea of digital cash 1198 00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:59,319 yeah and and I think um you know I 1199 00:51:55,920 --> 00:52:01,040 I think uh this is kind of you know on 1200 00:51:59,319 --> 00:52:04,040 the topic of other coins getting 1201 00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:06,160 delisted I think there's a good chance 1202 00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:09,400 that you know without liquidity without 1203 00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:12,000 centralized exchanges Dash zcash some of 1204 00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:14,599 these other like privacy coins or coins 1205 00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:17,799 with privacy features actually just 1206 00:52:14,599 --> 00:52:20,920 Trend toward zero and those people join 1207 00:52:17,799 --> 00:52:23,480 the Monero Camp um you know maybe not 1208 00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:25,480 they're probably still hurt with the you 1209 00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:28,079 know the Monero Community can be pretty 1210 00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:33,480 harsh on um on the 1211 00:52:28,079 --> 00:52:36,640 non-believers but um I think I think uh 1212 00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:39,040 yeah XMR XMR is is likely to catch 1213 00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:41,760 significant steam this year just for the 1214 00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:43,480 combination of events um particularly 1215 00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:46,680 the D 1216 00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:49,200 listings so we we talked about how large 1217 00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:51,000 the market could be right this said you 1218 00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:53,440 know down the line what the total 1219 00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:56,400 addressable Market is so why haven't we 1220 00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:58,079 seen more speculation than into Monero 1221 00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:00,440 is it just because of what whatever 1222 00:52:58,079 --> 00:53:02,200 paper Monero potentially on binance and 1223 00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:03,480 that was controlling the price or do you 1224 00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:06,359 think there's some other disconnect 1225 00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:08,960 going on there but you know where where 1226 00:53:06,359 --> 00:53:11,200 speculators were staying away from 1227 00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:13,319 Monero even though the the value 1228 00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:16,720 proposition and the addressable Market 1229 00:53:13,319 --> 00:53:19,920 is is potentially huge yeah I think I 1230 00:53:16,720 --> 00:53:22,720 think it's initially I think it was that 1231 00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:25,440 um I think there was speculation built 1232 00:53:22,720 --> 00:53:27,079 in but the kind of people who are specul 1233 00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:30,119 are doing that on binance and they're 1234 00:53:27,079 --> 00:53:33,640 not withdrawing Monero so their buys are 1235 00:53:30,119 --> 00:53:35,960 just sold right into by binance with 1236 00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:38,200 some Monero that doesn't exist and 1237 00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:41,319 because they're not saying let me exit 1238 00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:43,079 with this XMR that that purchase doesn't 1239 00:53:41,319 --> 00:53:47,760 have a lasting effect on the price it 1240 00:53:43,079 --> 00:53:50,119 doesn't increase the price floor um the 1241 00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:51,839 and and particularly because that XMR 1242 00:53:50,119 --> 00:53:53,559 that they're buying is not introduced to 1243 00:53:51,839 --> 00:53:58,160 the economy that would that would 1244 00:53:53,559 --> 00:54:01,480 bolster the price from use of XMR um and 1245 00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:04,359 more recently I heard from a trading 1246 00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:06,880 group that a friend is a part of that 1247 00:54:04,359 --> 00:54:08,559 nobody buys XMR because the price only 1248 00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:10,559 goes down or something like that it's 1249 00:54:08,559 --> 00:54:13,400 like don't speculate on XMR it's not 1250 00:54:10,559 --> 00:54:14,880 worth not worth looking at um so I think 1251 00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:16,839 that's going to be 1252 00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:19,680 a I don't know if that's going to be a 1253 00:54:16,839 --> 00:54:21,799 hurdle to overcome um I I kind of think 1254 00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:25,200 Monero is gonna gonna do that 1255 00:54:21,799 --> 00:54:27,000 automatically and um you know now that 1256 00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:29,960 now that exchanges are going to delist 1257 00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:32,680 it I do expect it to be more volatile 1258 00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:35,400 and think people are going to gradually 1259 00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:36,880 tune into that and realize that XMR 1260 00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:39,960 price Discovery will look a little 1261 00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:42,040 different than it has in the past few 1262 00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:43,839 years yeah like we were saying before 1263 00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:45,720 you know things like Sarai are gonna 1264 00:54:43,839 --> 00:54:48,799 potentially play a tremendous role here 1265 00:54:45,720 --> 00:54:52,000 if if that's if that's super slick and 1266 00:54:48,799 --> 00:54:55,400 usable um I could see 1267 00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:58,480 people turning to that as a way to just 1268 00:54:55,400 --> 00:55:00,280 you know no kyc it's not that really 1269 00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:02,839 that hard any harder to use than a 1270 00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:05,079 centralized exchange I'm already getting 1271 00:55:02,839 --> 00:55:06,520 my my Bitcoin or whatever or Litecoin 1272 00:55:05,079 --> 00:55:07,920 here on centralized exchange and I'll 1273 00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:12,680 have to do a click of a button I could 1274 00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:15,160 have some anonymously obtained Manero um 1275 00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:18,079 we might start to that hopefully is 1276 00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:21,160 where it picks up right yeah I mean and 1277 00:55:18,079 --> 00:55:24,640 the the extra the extra feature here the 1278 00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:29,280 extra use case for XMR is as a pass 1279 00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:31,760 through so if people really want to um 1280 00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:34,079 you know preserve privacy in their 1281 00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:37,480 crypto trading they're going to be 1282 00:55:34,079 --> 00:55:41,200 trading through Sarai or through haveno 1283 00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:43,079 or one of these other dexes to keep that 1284 00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:46,880 right to to retain that right to privacy 1285 00:55:43,079 --> 00:55:49,280 for themselves so XMR in that case is 1286 00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:51,839 used in this particular way it might be 1287 00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:53,440 used a lot pretty frequently but that's 1288 00:55:51,839 --> 00:55:55,799 going to factor into the equation of 1289 00:55:53,440 --> 00:56:00,680 exchange as well the MV equals PQ there 1290 00:55:55,799 --> 00:56:03,319 is like the um value of the currency is 1291 00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:04,640 going to you know be proportional to the 1292 00:56:03,319 --> 00:56:06,400 amount of funds people want to move 1293 00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:08,520 through it divided by how quickly 1294 00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:11,880 they're doing that so that becomes an 1295 00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:14,160 additional factor to the value the base 1296 00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:17,119 value the price floor of 1297 00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:20,039 XMR um just by having this additional 1298 00:56:17,119 --> 00:56:22,440 Market to address so it's not just going 1299 00:56:20,039 --> 00:56:25,200 to be used as a medium of exchange but 1300 00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:28,000 now with something like a decentralized 1301 00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:30,200 exchange it becomes a lot easier to use 1302 00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:32,599 XMR to provide privacy for your other 1303 00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:32,599 crypto 1304 00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:38,880 trades yeah that's that's an interesting 1305 00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:40,760 thought right so the the the addressable 1306 00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:42,880 the market will go up much more right 1307 00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:44,760 the size of the market but then also the 1308 00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:47,000 amount of transactions being made right 1309 00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:48,559 so that but that do they cancel each 1310 00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:50,559 other out usually in instant like 1311 00:56:48,559 --> 00:56:52,359 instance like that or what's a way of 1312 00:56:50,559 --> 00:56:55,920 like kind of logically thinking about 1313 00:56:52,359 --> 00:56:59,079 that yeah so I guess I would I would um 1314 00:56:55,920 --> 00:57:01,520 because the higher higher the V right 1315 00:56:59,079 --> 00:57:04,400 the price will drop right if there's 1316 00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:07,000 more right right and so in this case you 1317 00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:10,839 have two components of the price you've 1318 00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:12,760 got the uh the amount of value that XMR 1319 00:57:10,839 --> 00:57:15,559 acru from its use as a medium of 1320 00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:17,920 Exchange in uh on let's say dark net 1321 00:57:15,559 --> 00:57:21,240 markets and then you've also got the 1322 00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:23,799 value that it accru from the trades that 1323 00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:26,920 are happening on decentralized exchanges 1324 00:57:23,799 --> 00:57:29,039 where people are um trading through 1325 00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:31,880 Sarai or trading through jino and then 1326 00:57:29,039 --> 00:57:34,799 trading back to get their coins clean 1327 00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:37,480 with no observable history and right 1328 00:57:34,799 --> 00:57:39,520 instead of using Samurai Wasabi or 1329 00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:41,960 whatever else they're just using this 1330 00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:43,559 this Dex to go into Monero and out maybe 1331 00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:46,160 take Bitcoin all the way out now they 1332 00:57:43,559 --> 00:57:48,400 have you know quote unquote clean clean 1333 00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:50,359 Bitcoin right right and so there's 1334 00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:52,119 there's an upper I guess uh yeah there's 1335 00:57:50,359 --> 00:57:54,319 an upper limit on the velocity there 1336 00:57:52,119 --> 00:57:55,520 that's determined by at least the 40 1337 00:57:54,319 --> 00:57:58,480 minutes that it's going to take to 1338 00:57:55,520 --> 00:58:00,359 unlock all of the funds from Trading 1339 00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:03,280 through Monero and back right you've got 1340 00:58:00,359 --> 00:58:05,559 that 20 minute cool down time in uh how 1341 00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:09,280 much you know how quickly someone can 1342 00:58:05,559 --> 00:58:14,520 trade a past utxo um or a recent a 1343 00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:16,760 recent utxo so um I think that is those 1344 00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:19,319 two are additive right it's not just 1345 00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:20,880 that um it's not that the velocity of 1346 00:58:19,319 --> 00:58:22,520 the Second Use case would affect the 1347 00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:24,440 velocity of the first it's just that the 1348 00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:25,480 amount of value that occurs the XMR 1349 00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:29,280 token 1350 00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:29,280 it gets combined from both of those use 1351 00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:37,359 cases awesome man any any anything else 1352 00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:41,119 you want to bring up with regards to uh 1353 00:58:37,359 --> 00:58:42,599 this topic of Monero utility value 1354 00:58:41,119 --> 00:58:44,440 certainly a topic that everybody is 1355 00:58:42,599 --> 00:58:46,119 interested in right so in in Monero land 1356 00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:48,839 everybody's like you know we we ignore 1357 00:58:46,119 --> 00:58:51,440 price whatever but obviously it's price 1358 00:58:48,839 --> 00:58:53,079 is is related to utility and we're all 1359 00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:55,559 interested in utility I don't think 1360 00:58:53,079 --> 00:58:57,480 anybody doesn't want to see 1361 00:58:55,559 --> 00:58:59,400 usefulness go up right uh that's what 1362 00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:02,520 we're all in it for to opt out build a 1363 00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:05,160 circular economy and just use Monero for 1364 00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:07,319 everything right right yeah I guess the 1365 00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:09,079 the final thing that I would share is 1366 00:59:07,319 --> 00:59:11,640 the most common misconception that I 1367 00:59:09,079 --> 00:59:14,000 hear from people who are fans of 1368 00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:17,160 cryptocurrencies to use in everyday life 1369 00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:20,200 is if you if you are spending it then 1370 00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:22,559 it's not actually auring value or you 1371 00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:28,200 know this this might be a legacy thought 1372 00:59:22,559 --> 00:59:31,720 from the uh the BTC maximalists but it 1373 00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:34,599 is if you are spending it it's actually 1374 00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:37,079 acur more value than if you're just 1375 00:59:34,599 --> 00:59:39,599 holding it by holding a currency you're 1376 00:59:37,079 --> 00:59:42,119 decreasing the circulating Supply the 1377 00:59:39,599 --> 00:59:46,880 circulating Supply is factored into the 1378 00:59:42,119 --> 00:59:50,000 price per coin but by spending it if you 1379 00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:51,880 actually need to spend it on you know to 1380 00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:54,640 get the goods that you're buying or if 1381 00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:56,160 you choose you know with a with firm 1382 00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:58,559 principles you say I want to be someone 1383 00:59:56,160 --> 01:00:00,280 who contributes to the crypto economy 1384 00:59:58,559 --> 01:00:02,440 and you're choosing to use a 1385 01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:04,720 cryptocurrency every time you purchase 1386 01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:06,880 it to buy something else you are 1387 01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:09,359 actually increasing the price and yes 1388 01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:11,359 that decreases later but in the time in 1389 01:00:09,359 --> 01:00:14,599 between there's some value that actually 1390 01:00:11,359 --> 01:00:18,400 acrs to the token and as people do that 1391 01:00:14,599 --> 01:00:21,559 in aggregate they are acing value to a 1392 01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:23,720 currency so um you know go spend your 1393 01:00:21,559 --> 01:00:25,680 Monero like don't just don't just hoard 1394 01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:28,119 it you can spend it and you will still 1395 01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:29,599 be acre value to XMR and keeping the 1396 01:00:28,119 --> 01:00:32,839 price 1397 01:00:29,599 --> 01:00:35,480 High that's a great way of looking at it 1398 01:00:32,839 --> 01:00:39,160 man um yeah any anything else you want 1399 01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:40,680 to throw out there uh just uh I guess 1400 01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:43,319 you know if you guys find this 1401 01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:45,160 interesting follow um you can check out 1402 01:00:43,319 --> 01:00:48,160 all of my history of my insights on eats 1403 01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:51,640 sleep crypto.com we've got token 1404 01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:55,160 Dynamics Twitter is token Dynamics I'm 1405 01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:56,799 official ESC and um keep keep up with 1406 01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:58,760 all the projects that we're working on 1407 01:00:56,799 --> 01:01:00,680 putting out helping and if you're 1408 01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:02,920 interested in uh if anybody out there is 1409 01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:05,960 building something that's infrastructure 1410 01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:08,160 for privacy or infrastructure for crypto 1411 01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:11,440 in general defi protocols anything 1412 01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:13,400 that's helping XMR that needs a token 1413 01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:15,799 send me a message I'd be happy to help 1414 01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:17,160 you and um you know we we'd be happy to 1415 01:01:15,799 --> 01:01:19,920 work with you at token 1416 01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:21,359 Dynamics very cool man and uh before we 1417 01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:24,039 jumped on today we were talking about 1418 01:01:21,359 --> 01:01:25,680 monotop and stuff would be cool to see 1419 01:01:24,039 --> 01:01:28,200 you at the next one would be I would 1420 01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:29,799 love to be there yeah this would be um 1421 01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:32,559 you know it would be phenomenal to to 1422 01:01:29,799 --> 01:01:34,760 meet all the other Monero fans and uh 1423 01:01:32,559 --> 01:01:37,280 and discuss these these you know weighty 1424 01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:39,240 important issues I think these are um my 1425 01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:41,079 favorite talks so thanks so much Douglas 1426 01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:43,280 for having me on today it's been a 1427 01:01:41,079 --> 01:01:46,160 pleasure for sure for sure and I know 1428 01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:48,960 you mentioned Puerto Rico as a as a 1429 01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:50,880 potential location it's tempting it's 1430 01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:53,160 very tempting we're probably we're 1431 01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:55,119 probably going to do it in buen aurus in 1432 01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:56,760 Argentina awesome 1433 01:01:55,119 --> 01:01:58,359 um but there are some things that are 1434 01:01:56,760 --> 01:02:02,400 holding us back from doing like it's 1435 01:01:58,359 --> 01:02:05,119 it's far it's far for us yeah but I mean 1436 01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:06,599 is more it would be very accessible uh 1437 01:02:05,119 --> 01:02:08,319 what we liked about Mexico City was 1438 01:02:06,599 --> 01:02:11,760 super accessible right especially with 1439 01:02:08,319 --> 01:02:16,680 visas Puerto Rico not as good as Mexico 1440 01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:18,520 City yeah yeah definitely yeah I'm I'm a 1441 01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:20,440 big fan of all those places and I think 1442 01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:24,480 this year Argentina makes a lot of sense 1443 01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:27,960 because of M so for sure yeah exciting 1444 01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:29,559 yeah yeah yeah all right buddy uh thank 1445 01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:31,839 you so much it was a pleasure meeting 1446 01:02:29,559 --> 01:02:33,839 you likewise thanks so much for having 1447 01:02:31,839 --> 01:02:36,039 me happy new happy New Year and 1448 01:02:33,839 --> 01:02:37,960 hopefully the you know the next time we 1449 01:02:36,039 --> 01:02:39,880 we touch base we have you on it'll be 1450 01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:42,960 it'll be a whole new Monero world right 1451 01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:45,960 we'll be like oh wow I'd love that yeah 1452 01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:48,640 maybe um when Sarai comes out Launches 1453 01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:51,160 on net that'd be that'd be phenomenal to 1454 01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:54,359 Circle back around then yeah anytime man 1455 01:02:51,160 --> 01:02:58,200 you let me know cool thanks so much yeah 1456 01:02:54,359 --> 01:03:00,400 yeah man cheers thank you thank you for 1457 01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:02,680 joining us on this week's episode we 1458 01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:04,359 release new episodes every week you can 1459 01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:08,000 find And subscribe to our show on 1460 01:03:04,359 --> 01:03:10,400 YouTube Odyssey iTunes Spotify Stitcher 1461 01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:12,319 or wherever you listen to podcast go to 1462 01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:14,119 Monero talk. live to subscribe for a 1463 01:03:12,319 --> 01:03:16,480 full list of places where you can watch 1464 01:03:14,119 --> 01:03:19,200 and listen if you want to interact with 1465 01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:21,319 us guests or other podcast listeners you 1466 01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:23,480 can follow us on Twitter and please 1467 01:03:21,319 --> 01:03:25,319 leave us a review on iTunes it helps 1468 01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:27,720 people find the show and we are always 1469 01:03:25,319 --> 01:03:31,559 happy to read them so thanks so much and 1470 01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:31,559 we look forward to being back next 1471 01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:42,000 week