Latest / psychophobia* podcast / Episode 06: The Seduction of Certainty - Curiosity, Complexity and the Unknown

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Episode 06: The Seduction of Certainty - Curiosity, Complexity and the Unknown · psychophobia* podcast

• 0:05
  What if the institutions designed to help us understand the
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  human psyche are
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  SPEAKER_01: actually afraid of them?
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  Hosted by Dr.
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  Michael Montgomery,
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  this podcast explores the uncomfortable questions.
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  Together we'll examine how the mental health systems meant to
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  heal us instead
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  SPEAKER_01: perpetuate cycles of dependency.
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  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the psychophobia podcast.
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  SPEAKER_02: You look great.
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  SPEAKER_02: You look all relaxed.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: I've been here for a month now.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's been really, really, really incredible.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I'm on the northern end of the Nicoya Peninsula, currently in Nosara.
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  Wow.
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  SPEAKER_00: I took a surf lesson this morning, which was really fun.
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  SPEAKER_02: I'm so envious.
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  SPEAKER_02: It just feels so exotic.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's been so beautiful,
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  but I'm happy to see you and I'm sorry that it's been kind of
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  challenging to
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  SPEAKER_00: schedule this time.
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  Actually it worked out okay because we've been constantly
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  trying to refine the
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  production values and the studio and sort of literally changed
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  camera and got more
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  lights and signs and so what began as a small project has sort
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  of turned into
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  SPEAKER_02: something a little bit bigger.
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  Delighted to see you because I feel that we had that sort of
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  intense meeting and
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  SPEAKER_02: encounter and then there's been a sort of a gap,
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  SPEAKER_02: probably a gap to process and to think about it and
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  Usually what I do is I show you something and then ask you
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  what,
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  what your response is.
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  SPEAKER_02: So I'm going to show you this.
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  SPEAKER_02: You tell me what you think.
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  Well,
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  to me,
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  it looks like a man who is either in charge or believes he's in
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  charge.
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  SPEAKER_02: I like your analytic.
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  SPEAKER_02: So that, that is not a, that's not a man.
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  SPEAKER_02: That is the man.
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  SPEAKER_02: That is Sigmund Freud.
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  SPEAKER_02: But I didn't know whether you recognized it,
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  SPEAKER_02: because what I did is,
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  SPEAKER_02: it was a classic photograph,
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  so I took some inspiration from some of the art that you and
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  Steve had showed me,
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  SPEAKER_02: the artistic artist.
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  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
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  And then I kind of played around with his image and sort of AI
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  type graphics to see
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  SPEAKER_02: what would happen.
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  SPEAKER_02: But yeah,
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  SPEAKER_02: so the link for me with Freud is very contentious,
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  SPEAKER_02: but to me symbolizes something that is getting squeezed out,
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  SPEAKER_02: both clinically and if you like,
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  SPEAKER_02: in our common parlance and that's the unconscious.
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  SPEAKER_02: And it was one of the big takeaways of visiting you,
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  SPEAKER_02: many,
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  SPEAKER_02: many takeaways,
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  but I kept coming back to this juxtaposition between you and
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  Steve talking about
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  SPEAKER_02: evidence and science,
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  SPEAKER_02: but yet talking about the unconscious.
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  SPEAKER_02: And that really fascinated me,
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  SPEAKER_02: both just in how you approach life,
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  SPEAKER_02: your engagement with everything and very much the work that you do there.
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  And also the tie in with neurodiversity,
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  that blew my mind hearing both of you talk about that.
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  SPEAKER_02: So that was the opener.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: we had a really,
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  I think you're right in that it took some time to digest the
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  experience for sure.
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  And my preference is typically,
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  you know,
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  intensity followed by an extreme lack of intensity.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know,
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  I like existing at one or the other end of the spectrum and the
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  in between,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: as well.
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  But I just wanted to say that it was,
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  again,
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  it was just such a charming experience to have you
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  SPEAKER_00: With us,
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  Steve and I have both reflected on it as the beginning of a
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  friendship and
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  SPEAKER_00: hopefully some interesting projects,
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  SPEAKER_00: including the one that you're in the middle of right now.
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  Yeah,
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  it's really been fascinating because firstly,
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  thank you for saying that.
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  The memory is kind of surreal because it was such a perfect day
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  with meeting you
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  SPEAKER_02: right up to,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: having the meal.
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  SPEAKER_02: And then the context of the backdrop of everything that was going on in
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  SPEAKER_02: Minneapolis,
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  SPEAKER_02: it was like,
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  SPEAKER_02: wow,
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  SPEAKER_02: it's so strange to have this meeting,
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  SPEAKER_02: but yet the backdrop,
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  SPEAKER_02: it was all going off and the weather and that,
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  SPEAKER_02: but the response from people has not ended,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: the curiosity and the interest in
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  Both the Chamber and just your work and the number of people
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  who've reached out who
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  SPEAKER_02: I think have connections with you and Steve just to say,
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  SPEAKER_02: oh,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: has been very worthwhile.
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  The other thing that has really moved me is I've had people
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  reading what I was
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  SPEAKER_02: writing about tying in with mental health and that is really
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  SPEAKER_02: spoken to people,
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  SPEAKER_02: particularly people who have got loved ones,
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  SPEAKER_02: who they feel are kind of trapped,
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  SPEAKER_02: maybe lost contact with consensual reality,
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  SPEAKER_02: and their mind is bringing up very frightening experiences for them,
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  which was the whole initial approach to sit in the chamber and
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  then for me to face
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  SPEAKER_02: what came up in my mind.
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  SPEAKER_02: So I've literally had to say to people, look, I
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  SPEAKER_02: Was able to sit there and I came up against what I was bringing,
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  but I've done years of training in silence and meditation and
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  psychoanalysis.
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  SPEAKER_02: You know, your loved one could be in their early twenties.
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  SPEAKER_02: They haven't had any of those inputs or training.
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  SPEAKER_02: So whatever is there will come up.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I said that if I had have been that age and tried it,
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  SPEAKER_02: I probably wouldn't have come out alive,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: in terms of
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  SPEAKER_02: what my own unconscious would have brought up at that time.
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  SPEAKER_02: So I've had to give a lot of context to it,
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  SPEAKER_02: but it really has stimulated conversations around your work,
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  SPEAKER_02: around silence,
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  SPEAKER_02: around confronting our own fear.
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  SPEAKER_02: So it really touched all the things that I had hoped for and much more.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm so happy to hear that it really resonated deeply.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that was, in many ways, the expectation, you know.
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  SPEAKER_02: People did freak out around me for going in.
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  SPEAKER_02: You know, psychophobia was apparent.
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  SPEAKER_02: You know, it generated all the things that I thought it would.
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  SPEAKER_02: So today I just wanted to
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  Challenge you a little bit in some of the things you said and
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  then get into it a
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  SPEAKER_02: little bit,
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  SPEAKER_02: because you challenged me in many of the things that you said.
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  The first thing I wanted to ask you about was the whole concept
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  of silence.
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  When I researched silence,
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  I actually wrote about the lab,
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  I never thought I would get there.
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  The most quiet place I got to on earth was I think in Arizona,
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  up some mountain.
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  SPEAKER_02: And as I sat down, Steve uses the language to explain.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's like a shift in perception, right?
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  So the minute I hit the pure silence,
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  then I start to hear everything else.
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  SPEAKER_02: The rocks move, the insects, my own tinnitus.
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  SPEAKER_02: And when I researched everyone who'd gone into chambers,
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  SPEAKER_02: they often came up with the same sort of thing.
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  But the minute I went into the chamber,
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  I immediately went into the connection with stillness
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  SPEAKER_02: So my question was,
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  SPEAKER_02: when we talk about silence,
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  SPEAKER_02: are we actually talking about something else in that moment,
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  SPEAKER_02: in that experience in the chamber?
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  Because I think the broader conversation is how do you make
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  that therapeutically accessible?
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  So what are we actually talking about when people have that
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  experience of what
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  SPEAKER_02: we're calling silence?
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  SPEAKER_00: Silence in the chamber.
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  SPEAKER_00: One thing that we spoke about that I keep coming back to with my clients,
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  SPEAKER_00: the patients that I'm working with in the anechoic chamber,
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  SPEAKER_00: you,
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  SPEAKER_00: myself,
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  SPEAKER_00: is that we can't reflect on our experience in the anechoic chamber.
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  You can't reflect on your experience in the anechoic chamber
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  based on the lack of
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  SPEAKER_00: light or based on the lack of sound.
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  SPEAKER_00: You can really only reflect on it based on what's left.
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  Right so when you're in an environment that's acoustically very
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  very quiet and
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  visually completely dark and there's no difference between your
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  eyes being open and
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  closed you you've lost the two main ways in which you're
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  connected to the world in
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  SPEAKER_00: which you're connected to yourself in which we're connected to each other
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  SPEAKER_00: And those two things anchor us to our reality,
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  SPEAKER_00: in addition to of course our other senses as well.
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  And so the biggest piece of clarification that I'd like to make
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  is that silence is
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  SPEAKER_00: thought of as an acoustical issue.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it is an acoustical issue,
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  but it's also an issue that manifests across all of the other
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  ways in which we
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  SPEAKER_00: perceive the world.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so we'll often refer to silence as acoustical silence,
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  SPEAKER_00: silence as visual silence,
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  SPEAKER_00: silence as thermal silence,
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  SPEAKER_00: right?
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  We'd like to clarify on top of just the word silence what
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  modality we're speaking about.
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  SPEAKER_00: So my view on silence is that it's absolutely a multi-sensory issue.
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  SPEAKER_00: My view is that
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  SPEAKER_00: Unless you're isolated to one particular modality,
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  SPEAKER_00: just vision,
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  SPEAKER_00: just sound,
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  SPEAKER_00: just the way in which your body is thermally experiencing an environment,
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  SPEAKER_00: which we very seldom are.
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  SPEAKER_00: We very seldom have isolated sensory experiences.
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  You can't really achieve silence if it's not cared for and
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  amplified in every area.
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  SPEAKER_00: If that makes sense.
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  So we like to speak about it as a multi-sensory issue and
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  that's been one of the
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  largest guiding principles in our design work and our
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  architectural design and
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  SPEAKER_00: research work for decades.
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  And it's also what's become the launching place for the
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  therapeutics program that
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  SPEAKER_00: I've been building out of the lab as well.
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  SPEAKER_02: So there was an immediate quality in the chamber.
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  But my sense was that quality I was familiar with and could
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  recognize if I was in
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  SPEAKER_02: Times Square,
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  SPEAKER_02: but I could easily forget being in Times Square,
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  SPEAKER_02: whereas the chamber brought me into it immediately,
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  SPEAKER_02: rapidly.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_02: So is it
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  SPEAKER_02: Necessarily what we're calling silence or is it the shift?
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  SPEAKER_02: Like if you're in a room with people in silence meditating,
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  SPEAKER_02: it's very unusual to be in a room with people in silence.
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  Like when people do a minute silence,
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  they usually do it for like 15 seconds.
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  SPEAKER_02: They don't even do the whole minute.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  It's almost like being in a room with people and all being
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  silent is like,
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  it's defying the metaphors of what it means to be in a room
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  with many people.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: Because metaphorically to be in a room full of,
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  SPEAKER_00: or not,
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  SPEAKER_00: not just metaphorically,
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  SPEAKER_00: literally,
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  SPEAKER_00: right.
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  Literally speaking to be in a room with many people,
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  it often implies noise.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, it often implies commotion.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I agree with you there.
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  SPEAKER_02: So I, I think I might've said you something there.
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  So I was meditating a lot on my own and it's been a while since
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  I sort of live in a
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  SPEAKER_02: group setting and I went to the Quaker church.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: You did mention that.
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  So immediately struck by how different it was sitting with
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  others than it was
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  SPEAKER_02: sitting on my own.
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  And then of course it was the noise of the benches creaking and
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  it's like,
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  SPEAKER_02: wow,
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  SPEAKER_02: this is actually so noisy,
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  but you wouldn't ordinarily hear that because there's so many
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  other things that
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  SPEAKER_02: you're bringing in.
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  Really powerful experience just to sit with people that you
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  don't know for one hour
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  SPEAKER_02: in silence and not saying you're meditating.
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  SPEAKER_02: You're just sitting in silence and you're waiting for what comes up.
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  So again,
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  it's like the John Cage orchestra piece,
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  you know,
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  which he writes a lot about.
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  SPEAKER_02: So what would be enough?
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  SPEAKER_02: I know you talked about
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  SPEAKER_02: Altering the level of silence to make it therapeutic,
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  but what would it be that could recreate that experience of
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  this is a very new
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  SPEAKER_02: perceptual experience for people?
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  Because what I hear you say is when people go in there with
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  your clients and stuff,
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  SPEAKER_02: patients,
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  SPEAKER_02: they often report really positive.
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  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
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  SPEAKER_02: You know, you name it.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's like, wow, there's something happening here.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, I guess I'll answer your question in a few parts.
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  One thing which I think you were kind of alluding to is,
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  you know,
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  silence is relative.
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  And so if I have a client that is living in a busy neighborhood
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  in New York City,
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  SPEAKER_00: In order for them to be immersed in silence,
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  they really need to be immersed in an environment that
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  demonstrates enough
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  SPEAKER_00: contrast,
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  SPEAKER_00: right?
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  If I have a client that's living out in the woods with very few
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  people around them,
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  SPEAKER_00: they're not in the flight path,
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: it's very quiet.
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  SPEAKER_00: I also need to demonstrate some sense of contrast as well.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's relative to the user.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think it's relative to the occupant, to whoever the client is.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so that's what I mean when I say I think silence is relative.
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  SPEAKER_00: My view is that you don't need to be in a negative 26
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  SPEAKER_00: DBA environment in order to be immersed in silence.
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  SPEAKER_00: And there's a few technical reasons for that,
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  one being that zero decibels is considered the threshold of
• 15:20
  perfect infant hearing.
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  The other piece is,
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  and so that's beyond what's considered within our hearing age
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  range.
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  SPEAKER_00: The other piece is I think that we can demonstrate contrast,
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  we can achieve silence and demonstrate difference without such
• 15:38
  an extreme.
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  SPEAKER_00: Which is something that,
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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  we're absolutely looking at in the PTSD study that we're
• 15:45
  working on and that we're
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: considering as we go further into developing our therapeutics program.
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  SPEAKER_02: You talk about taking away the two things, the silence and light.
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  SPEAKER_02: How important is the darkness to the experience, do you think?
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  It's very important because if the lights are on,
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  your vision is your perceptual anchor.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so the experience is meant to be
• 16:18
  you know overwhelmingly about being able to absorb what it's
• 16:21
  like to be in an
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  acoustically very very quiet space if the lights are on you're
• 16:26
  not able to absorb
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  that as much because you're anchored to your ability to see
• 16:30
  what's around you so
• 16:34
  I'm fascinated by the fact that whether we look at Eastern
• 16:36
  medicine or Western
• 16:37
  medicine or you know more homeopathic approaches for medicine
• 16:43
  less homeopathic
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: approaches for medicine
• 16:47
  Across the board,
• 16:48
  it's about what do we add on to make ourselves feel better,
• 16:51
  right?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Feel better, feel more alive, feel more connected.
• 16:54
  And what we're working with and what I'm very curious about is
• 16:59
  what happens when we
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: start taking things away?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what happens via the process of elimination?
• 17:07
  And since our ability to perceive is the only reason why we
• 17:14
  know we're here,
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  SPEAKER_00: What better area to work with?
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  SPEAKER_02: So this was a big one for me, right?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm going to come back to that.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: I want to ask you quickly, did you say homopathic medicine?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: What are your thoughts on that?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very interested in homeopathic medicine.
• 17:36
  I'm interested in general in terms of my own personal health
• 17:39
  and getting to the root cause.
• 17:41
  I accept Eastern and Western medicine and I am very integrative
• 17:47
  in my approach in
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: terms of my health personally.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: I also feel that the two inform one another in significant ways.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have a singular relationship with either.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: I use both.
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  But being somebody that is less interested in masking a problem
• 18:09
  and more interested
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  SPEAKER_00: in solving the problem and getting to the root cause,
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  SPEAKER_00: not just in terms of my health,
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: but in terms of essentially every area in my life,
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  I find it to be very interesting and it's helped me in many
• 18:24
  ways having studied it.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: Because it gets a lot of bad press.
• 18:29
  All I can say about it is I used to have chronic hay fever and
• 18:34
  I took homopathic
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: hay fever and it went,
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: it went away.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: I had it from,
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 18:42
  until I was about 20 and I took this homopathic and it just
• 18:45
  went away and I hadn't
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: heard,
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: the sort of more negative discussion of homopathic,
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: like it worked.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: What else is there to say?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I did recommend it to other people and it didn't work.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, sorry, I was just interested in your thought there.
• 19:02
  I like what you said though,
• 19:03
  but I think you're inferring you'll use whatever works.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'll use whatever works.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: That being said,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: my instinct,
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: if I have the ability,
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: the resources,
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: access and whatnot,
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'll go towards the treatment modality that is looking at the root cause.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: That's good.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 19:28
  So say your phrase again so we get it word for word about
• 19:33
  what's when you take perception away.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Since our ability to perceive is the only reason why we know we're here.
• 19:42
  So you said that a few times when I was last with you and it
• 19:46
  really stuck with me.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: So define, perceive,
• 19:53
  Well,
• 19:53
  perceived is essentially us absorbing what's happening in the
• 19:57
  world around us.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: So you're talking about the senses?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: So smell, taste, touch, sight?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I take those away.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: What are you left with?
• 20:15
  If you take away,
• 20:17
  I mean,
• 20:17
  we spoke about this when you were in Minneapolis,
• 20:19
  right?
• 20:19
  Because you have some views about a sixth or a seventh or an
• 20:24
  eighth sense that
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: exists,
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: which I'm very interested in.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: From a perceptual angle,
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: if I can't see you,
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: if I can't hear you,
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: if I can't feel you,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: if I don't have any of these other things on a perceptual angle,
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: there is nothing left.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: But what about the mind?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think that in order for the mind to be connected,
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: we need all of those other things to pursue more clearly.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I think when I was very, very young, I used to reflect on this a lot.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: So what if I took away my perception, what would be left?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then I used to have these
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: Wild dreams were,
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: the dreams were of having kind of no perception,
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: so like nearly existing except in the mind space.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I think from some traditions, the fifth sense would be the mind.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: Or perhaps the mind with a small m as in thoughts.
• 21:40
  If you were able to take all those away in some sort of a super
• 21:43
  advanced chamber,
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: surely you would still have awareness of your thoughts.
• 21:51
  That's probably the only thing you could be left to be aware
• 21:55
  of,
• 21:56
  and awareness itself.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: So you could say, six?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 22:05
  I think that from the perspective of sensory science and the
• 22:11
  work at our lab,
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: removing the external senses does not remove the mind.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: What remains is
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Consciousness itself,
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: what remains is internal perception,
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: thoughts,
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: memories,
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: imagination,
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: the body's internal signals,
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: heartbeat,
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: breathing,
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: blood flow,
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: awareness of time passing,
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: emotion and cognition.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, in the anechoic chamber,
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Experiments and experiences that I'm running with clients,
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: when external stimuli approach zero,
• 22:48
  people begin to perceive the internal landscape of the body and
• 22:55
  of the mind itself.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so they hear their heartbeat,
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: they notice subtle muscle tension,
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: thoughts become louder because there's nothing competing with them.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: So because people like Jean-Paul Sartre,
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: they would argue consciousness always has to have an object.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's complicated, but what you're saying is definitely your...
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: So when I use the mind, I'm talking about really about the aspect of
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: Being that is aware.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I, that is mind with a capital N for me.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: And then mind with a small M is kind of our,
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: our thoughts or ideas of who we are,
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: the things that are not constant.
• 23:53
  Whereas I see mind with a capital M as,
• 23:56
  um,
• 23:58
  pure,
• 23:58
  unconfined,
• 23:59
  spacious,
• 24:02
  um,
• 24:04
  never changing.
• 24:06
  Like the blue sky that's always there as opposed to the clouds
• 24:09
  that come and go.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: when the outside world disappears,
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: the internal world becomes more perceptible.
• 24:20
  So,
• 24:21
  in a scientific sense,
• 24:22
  what's left is the human perceptual system observing itself.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: And philosophically, we might say, you might say,
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: When the senses fall silent, what remains is awareness.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: So could be onto something here.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: So is it then an accelerator into that space?
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: The chamber?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 24:52
  You know,
• 24:53
  I dropped right in to what I recognized as very familiar,
• 24:57
  but it was kind of rapid.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: So the point was, it came up rapidly.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas in Times Square,
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: if you said,
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: drop into pure awareness and stillness,
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: I could do it.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't be distracted.
• 25:13
  I just might need to remember more quickly than I would when I
• 25:17
  went in the chamber
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: because it was like,
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: boom.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: So therapeutically then,
• 25:23
  would it be an accelerator to people coming into contact with
• 25:28
  their own awareness?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's exciting, right?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's very exciting.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: Because for some people,
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: so when I first started meditating and when I,
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: I mean meditation is such a misused word,
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: so when I started practicing mindfulness of breathing,
• 25:51
  it took me a year before I had any sense of what my mind was
• 25:57
  like when my thoughts
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: settled.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of like, why am I doing this?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's like my mind's all over.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: Then one day it was like, poof.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: There was a recognition of a stillness,
• 26:10
  of an awareness that transcended my everyday experience to the
• 26:16
  point where the
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: clouds became less dominant and I could see them as fleeting.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: But that took a year.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: What I've
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: Hearing you say,
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 26:29
  is people who are drawn to it come in with you and have some
• 26:33
  sort of experience
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: more or less immediately in that territory.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: Would that be right?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you remove the normal inputs to the perceptual system,
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: sight,
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: sound,
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: and other sensory cues,
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: perception itself doesn't disappear.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: The brain doesn't shut down.
• 26:56
  What happens instead is that the perceptual system begins to
• 27:01
  self-reference.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: So without external stimuli,
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: people start to notice all the internal signals that we were discussing.
• 27:10
  And so the experience becomes less about the outside world and
• 27:14
  becomes more about
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: observing the internal landscape of perception.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: So in that sense, environments like the anechoic chamber
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Don't create awareness.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: They simply remove the noise that normally occupies attention.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: So when that noise is reduced, awareness naturally turns inward.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I don't think that the chamber adds anything to perception.
• 27:43
  I think it subtracts the external world into the perceptuals
• 27:47
  until the perceptual
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: system then begins to observe itself.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: To me,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: The awareness is always there, but we fail to recognize it.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: So arguably in the more advanced,
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: Tibetan,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: meditation practices,
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: if you like,
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: you get to the point where the meditation is non-meditation.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 28:14
  so if you like meditation training is doing something to get to
• 28:17
  the point where you
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: can recognize and rest and awareness.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: But when you're resting and recognizing awareness,
• 28:24
  you're not actually doing anything because there's nothing to
• 28:28
  be done only to
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: recognize.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: What I have observed is,
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: I used to live in a more or less a monastery,
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: Buddhist monastery,
• 28:36
  and people would come on retreat and it would take about at
• 28:41
  least two days for them
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: to begin to settle.
• 28:43
  You know,
• 28:43
  they're bringing their lives,
• 28:45
  their problems,
• 28:46
  their hustle bustle.
• 28:48
  They were joining a community of really dedicated heavy duty
• 28:51
  practitioners.
• 28:54
  It took about two days to settle and then maybe another couple
• 28:57
  of days for the
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: retreat to go deeper and deeper.
• 29:00
  My sense from the Chamber was there was something captured of
• 29:04
  that essence more or
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: less immediately.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Now I don't know whether that was me.
• 29:09
  I don't think it was because I think what I'm hearing you say
• 29:11
  is all sorts of
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: people are having an experience that has value to them.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: Very quickly.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not overly prizing quickness,
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: because that would be in the area of McDonaldization,
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: but just more that there is real benefit potentially in this.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think you had mentioned when I was there,
• 29:35
  I was just fascinated by the opportunity to rule this out in a
• 29:38
  way that makes it
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: more accessible.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: That perhaps doesn't need the level of silence,
• 29:44
  but you do create a space where people can experience it to
• 29:50
  enough degree that
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: makes it therapeutic.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: Where are you with that, do you think?
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I can give a little bit of background into this.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: The therapeutics program, as you know, is very new.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's just something that we've been doing over the past couple of years.
• 30:11
  And it followed my spending a significant amount of time in the
• 30:16
  antichloric chamber
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: for two primary reasons.
• 30:20
  One reason was I was interested in immersing myself for
• 30:25
  consistent periods of time.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I was interested in taking my meditation practice in there.
• 30:31
  And the second piece is that I was starting to self-diagnose
• 30:34
  with a variety of
• 30:35
  sensory processing issues that in many ways I had known and
• 30:41
  thought that I had had
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: for many years but was never properly diagnosed.
• 30:45
  I think it's becoming more and more common for people to
• 30:48
  self-diagnose as in their
• 30:51
  adult years and that certainly happened to me and that's
• 30:54
  probably a result of the
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: work I'm doing and
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: Just as a strong personal interest.
• 31:02
  So,
• 31:03
  historically,
• 31:05
  people have come to our lab in order to be immersed in all of
• 31:09
  our work.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: We're set up as an immersive facility.
• 31:13
  As you know,
• 31:14
  we feel very strongly that you can spend time trying to
• 31:19
  convince people
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: of this or that.
• 31:22
  But it's much easier if you have the opportunity for them to
• 31:25
  convince themselves
• 31:27
  and immersing them in our various labs and immersing them in
• 31:31
  the anechoic chamber
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: is much more meaningful.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's much more, it's easier for them to understand what's going on.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: So the anechoic chamber,
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: which is traditionally a product testing environment,
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: following my really committing to spending time in there,
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: I started opening it up to other people.
• 31:52
  And something clicked for me,
• 31:56
  and that was that I realized that we'd never
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: created a strong definition,
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: a strong narrative about what the chamber was meant to do for people.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it's internationally known,
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: it's gotten all sorts of press for being a space that's challenging,
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: When you think of silence and when you think of darkness,
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of people think,
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: are afraid.
• 32:21
  And that's a narrative that exists in a lot of different areas
• 32:24
  when it comes to
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: things like sensory deprivation,
• 32:28
  which by the way has a very bad rap and we don't use that
• 32:31
  terminology because of
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: that.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: I was just going to say,
• 32:36
  so I just want to interject there because that's really
• 32:38
  interesting because the
• 32:39
  thing about sensory deprivation is people pay for it and also
• 32:44
  it's a punishment.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: So the
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: Back to what you said about the context is very, very important.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: But this idea, to me, this is the center of kind of my world.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: I use the word pharmakon,
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: which is a Greek word,
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: which means could be translated as a poison and a cure.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: So for some people, silence and darkness has great appeal.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: And for other people, they're terrified of it.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: For some people being admitted to hospital,
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: Consane of their life.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: For other people, it can potentially ruin their life.
• 33:22
  We have to stick with those two,
• 33:23
  which is basically what the asterisk represents.
• 33:28
  It represents that these things are in the territory of nuance
• 33:33
  and complexity and
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: we don't necessarily have all the answers to it,
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: but we need to ask these difficult questions.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: So sorry, I had to jump in because I think it's fascinating.
• 33:45
  The fact that people would pay for silence and the fact that
• 33:48
  people will be
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: punished by silence fascinates me.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I'm actually, it is a really interesting paradox.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 33:55
  humans will pay to enter environments of reduced sensory input
• 33:59
  and yet sensory
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: deprivation,
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: as you said,
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: has been used historically as a form of punishment or torture.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think the question isn't simply about sensory deprivation.
• 34:12
  It's about whether the mind experiences the environment as a
• 34:15
  place of safety and
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: curiosity or as a place of uncertainty and threat,
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 34:21
  And that nuance exists across,
• 34:23
  I mean,
• 34:23
  we could talk for hours about all the things in which
• 34:27
  There's lots of things in the world where some people choose to
• 34:30
  experience it as
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: pleasure and some people choose to experience it as the opposite of that,
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 34:38
  But there is something that I would like to get into that's
• 34:44
  come to mind based on
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: what you're saying and that's that
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: The way that I have set up these sessions,
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: the way that I'm facilitating my belief in what has,
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: my belief in
• 35:02
  The anechoic chamber's potential in silence and darkness and
• 35:06
  perhaps other
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: modalities of reduced sensory input.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: I really believe that it could be a strong, strong therapeutic modality.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that experience being held by somebody that feels that.
• 35:22
  I think is part of what creates that place of safety and
• 35:26
  curiosity rather rather
• 35:28
  than a place of you know uncertainty or threat and so part of
• 35:32
  part of my designing
• 35:35
  these sessions and kind of founding this program has been about
• 35:39
  trying to be
• 35:40
  exquisitely clear about what the narrative is not because we
• 35:44
  think that something
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: is going to
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Always happen to somebody when they walk in there.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we don't talk about what the outcome is supposed to be.
• 35:53
  We don't talk about what it's meant to achieve,
• 35:58
  what you're meant to achieve.
• 35:59
  We simply speak about the anechoic chamber and the experience
• 36:02
  as a lubricant upon
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: whatever,
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think as I said to you when you were with us,
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: a lubricant in hopefully a very positive way.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: So are you in the territory of set, set and setting?
• 36:18
  Because you present with a commanding presence and stillness
• 36:27
  and confidence.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, as a guide,
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: I would easily resonate towards you,
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: well I did,
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: you took me into the chamber,
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: but do you think that,
• 36:39
  are you saying that there's something about being in
• 36:41
  relationship with the guide
• 36:43
  that helps it become grounded and more meaningful as opposed to
• 36:50
  the contrast which
• 36:50
  would be a seclusion award for instance in a psychiatric
• 36:54
  facility where people are
• 36:56
  Perhaps throwing might be the wrong word but often they are
• 37:00
  throwing and then it
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: sort of excluded from sensory stimulation.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: You're in a way partnering with them on that journey to some extent?
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 37:17
  Most people that are coming,
• 37:21
  my clients when I meet them for the first time,
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: Many of them have never been in an environment that's completely dark.
• 37:29
  Many of them have never been in an environment that's extremely
• 37:34
  quiet acoustically.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: So they're having a profound experience just because of that.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: I've done a lot of work with groups,
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm transitioning more to working one-on-one with individuals,
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm not a clinical psychologist,
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: I have a cognitive and perceptual psychology background,
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm not a psychologist,
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a therapist,
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: and so I am,
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: sorry?
• 38:05
  I wouldn't even say that,
• 38:07
  because you'd wipe the floor with the most therapists I've met.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: it's about awareness,
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: it's about self-reflection,
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_02: it's about humility,
• 38:20
  it's about meeting the people with a non-judgmental and I think
• 38:25
  a lot of that can
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: be polluted by overtraining and theory and you know,
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: so I think it's an advantage in your case rather than disadvantage.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you for saying that.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate that.
• 38:42
  I feel that there's a strong energy exchange that goes on
• 38:45
  between between me and
• 38:47
  the people that are coming in and despite being in a very
• 38:51
  professional environment
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: and despite being the person facilitating or being the guide
• 39:01
  I feel that I also learn a lot about myself through my clients
• 39:06
  and people that are
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: coming in as well.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it's extremely fluid.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: Beautiful.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: So you said something.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how much you want to talk about your own experience.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'll certainly reveal if you reveal, right?
• 39:25
  For some people,
• 39:27
  I certainly became much more aware of noise after the chamber
• 39:31
  was driving me.
• 39:34
  Oh my goodness,
• 39:34
  it's just overwhelming,
• 39:39
  the level of noise that we deal with.
• 39:42
  But you mentioned something about the world and I immediately
• 39:47
  went to this idea of safety.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I think when people are in distress, they seek safety.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: And what they do not receive is safety.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: So for example,
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: in many states,
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: if you were to phone for services in distress,
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: you'll get an ambulance,
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: a fire truck and a police car.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: So imagine you're in a state of emotional,
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_02: mental distress and you open the door and that's what you see.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: That's not safety.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: Or you go to hospital and you're taken away by security.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: Very common occurrence that I witness.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: But there are also people that the world
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: For different perceptual reasons,
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: perhaps let's say that to begin with,
• 40:29
  is very frightening and jarring and certain spaces are
• 40:33
  particularly frightening and
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: jarring.
• 40:36
  My sense is both you and Steve have really,
• 40:39
  really,
• 40:39
  really tuned into this and actually are
• 40:43
  Marrying the two,
• 40:45
  your deep understanding of silence and the benefits,
• 40:49
  acoustics,
• 40:52
  architecture.
• 40:53
  Some of the stuff that you were telling me about what you've
• 40:57
  designed and how
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: you've designed it and how you thought it was off the scale exciting.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want to speak to that a little bit?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, certainly.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'd be happy to.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, Steve and I both
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: self-identify as being sensitive and likely hypersensitive.
• 41:18
  And so we have the pleasure of working for a population that
• 41:25
  we're included in,
• 41:28
  right?
• 41:28
  Which I think people are often best at working for a
• 41:33
  demographic if they're
• 41:37
  If they resemble that demographic themselves,
• 41:40
  if they resemble that population personally.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I consider myself a hypersensitive person and as I mentioned before,
• 41:49
  I have a variety of sensory processing issues that I've noticed
• 41:53
  for multiple
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: decades in my life,
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: but have thought of more seriously recently.
• 42:03
  And I think that when you get into this field,
• 42:06
  which is quite a niche,
• 42:07
  right?
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: Steve was really the first person that we know of globally that's taken a
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: multi-sensory approach to architecture.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: He's taken a multi-sensory approach to product development.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: And as far as I know,
• 42:22
  I'm the first person that's taken a multisensory approach to
• 42:25
  therapeutics within
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: the context of a built environment condition,
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 42:34
  And so our sensitivity probably has partially to do with the
• 42:38
  fact that that's our
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: nature and partially to do with the fact that we're existing within this
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: Continuum that's been relatively like left alone,
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: hasn't really been looked at broadly,
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: among other people.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: I really do believe that your work is unique.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I also believe people are always meant to meet at a particular time.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: I am also in that hypersensitive club,
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: but I only realized in the last probably a year because I thought my
• 43:23
  hypersensitivity was trauma related growing up in the troubles
• 43:29
  in Northern Ireland.
• 43:30
  And so,
• 43:30
  you know,
• 43:30
  I followed the emotional,
• 43:33
  the psychoanalytic,
• 43:37
  all these different routes.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess there was an element of trauma.
• 43:42
  But then I realized there's a hypersensity and way of
• 43:45
  organizing the world that I
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_02: had,
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: the term I've learned is masked,
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I masked it in ways that I wasn't,
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_02: didn't realize I was masking it,
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: but it was my way of coping.
• 43:59
  Now that I'm not masking and I'm really,
• 44:01
  really aware,
• 44:02
  it's kind of like overwhelming.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm seeing it in places that I hadn't seen before.
• 44:09
  And it's this split between primarily a mental health focus
• 44:17
  being kind of separate,
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: more separate from maybe a neurodiverse focus.
• 44:23
  So it's like all these different areas,
• 44:25
  sometimes they don't communicate with each other.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_02: So people are getting the wrong
• 44:30
  support the wrong treatment or no treatment or support at all
• 44:35
  and one of my
• 44:36
  aversions to that whole area of sensitivity was the over
• 44:40
  labeling and diagnosis and
• 44:41
  over medication and in a way I think I was it made me in a
• 44:47
  place of denial in my
• 44:49
  own experience because I hadn't I sort of pushed it away
• 44:52
  because I was angry about
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_02: the system once you see it
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_02: You can't un-see it.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right, it should come with a warning sign, right?
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: Warning, once your eyes are open, you won't want to close them.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_02: But I also have,
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_02: I mean that term sensitivity is beautiful,
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: but I also have this issue with people
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: Appropriating the term because they have a right to do so,
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: but then dictating what that term should or does mean for everyone else.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's a bit like it becomes more division and more groups.
• 45:42
  And then there's nearly like an oppression where other people
• 45:44
  can't talk about it
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: unless they identify in a particular way or use a particular language.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm kind of torn with the complexity of that.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'm also torn with the complexity of it.
• 46:02
  I think,
• 46:02
  you know,
• 46:04
  Steve and I speak a lot about how there are these really
• 46:10
  Broad terms that people refer to as if they're much more narrow
• 46:15
  or much more defined.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: Sustainability is a great example of that.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: What do you mean by sustainability?
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: What's your definition of sustainability?
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well-being.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: What's your definition of well-being?
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that, yeah, I'm with you.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm with you on this for sure.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: So what's the answer?
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: The answer is to create clear definitions.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: The answer is to be more specific,
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: and to push people to say what they think,
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: and to push people to be more specific because I don't
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't feel that people don't want to create clear definitions.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: I feel that people are not encouraged to be clearer.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: There's definitely a dumbing down.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_02: There's definitely a desire to have easy boxes.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's like I saw,
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_02: actually I won't go in there because it's too controversial,
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: but I'm presenting in April at a conference and I think it's called,
• 47:38
  my paper is Unboxed Realities and it comes from the
• 47:44
  misdiagnosis of people and then
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_02: the treatment.
• 47:46
  So I'm not offering potentially any solutions but I'm trying to
• 47:49
  give specific or
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: more specific definitions to
• 47:57
  Categories that we don't fully understand yet,
• 48:00
  but we need to be aware of.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_02: For example,
• 48:10
  certain people get very triggered and elevated when other
• 48:14
  people don't understand
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_02: them.
• 48:17
  And they don't understand why people can't understand what
• 48:20
  they're saying.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_02: And that elevated reaction can be seen as some sort of
• 48:27
  like mental health crisis but when you get up close and
• 48:32
  personal and take the time
• 48:34
  to understand the conflict you can begin to see that some
• 48:38
  people have a way of
• 48:40
  organizing and seeing the world that is very unique to them and
• 48:44
  the person that
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_02: they're encountering doesn't see the world in that way
• 48:48
  but it's much more fixed than just holding a view it's actually
• 48:54
  the person doesn't
• 48:56
  have the ability to see the other perspective in that moment at
• 48:59
  least and I see it
• 49:03
  even within families and what I see is a subclinical
• 49:11
  presentation say in a father
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: and a
• 49:17
  Very clinical presentation say on a daughter and what happens
• 49:22
  is when they get in
• 49:23
  the conflict the subclinical response gets triggered so you get
• 49:30
  an elevated
• 49:31
  conflict between two individuals who fundamentally don't
• 49:34
  understand each other and
• 49:36
  possibly in that moment don't have the capacity but from the
• 49:41
  outside looking in
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_02: it's really clear how they're missing
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: But in those situations, the complexity is often denial.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_02: So you take you and Steve,
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_02: myself,
• 50:00
  we're tuned in to some of the sensitivities and we're able to
• 50:04
  accommodate and work
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_02: with it.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_02: For some people, if you try and bring in the sensitivity,
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_02: There's an outright rejection of it,
• 50:17
  which means it's really difficult then to support them or the
• 50:23
  family or the friends
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_02: and colleagues around them.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: What are your thoughts?
• 50:32
  Well,
• 50:33
  I think that misunderstanding often comes from a limitation of
• 50:37
  perspective.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: And the mind tends to collapse complexity into something that's simpler.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: But when we become curious about another person's point of view,
• 50:52
  what once looked unusual or difficult can begin to look like a
• 51:01
  very particular kind
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: of originality.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: Because
• 51:10
  If you have a tribe,
• 51:13
  if no one had a level of sensitivity,
• 51:16
  you have a problem.
• 51:18
  If everyone in the team is super positive,
• 51:22
  then there's no attention to risk.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_02: You need some people to be a little bit paranoid.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: You need contrast.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_02: You need contrast.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm often talking about
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of lighting,
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 51:37
  people love when they're lighting a room to put one light in
• 51:42
  the middle of the
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: room,
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's on the fan or it's just a central light fixture,
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: and you turn on the light and everything is featured,
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, when everything is featured, nothing is featured.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because you have no sense of contrast in the environment.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so what you're explaining,
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: what I think we're talking about now,
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: is something that exists across all these different types of modalities.
• 52:09
  And I think that I try my best in my life to embrace difference
• 52:16
  for the sake of
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: embracing contrast,
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: you know?
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's really strong, yeah.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_02: Really strong.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_02: what's interesting and all that I did,
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_02: I got into that space because I had my conflict resolution hat on.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I was introduced to different
• 52:37
  situations because the person of concern had some sort of
• 52:42
  extreme crisis or,
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_02: was extremely complicated.
• 52:48
  When the more extreme crisis dissipated,
• 52:53
  then there often was still sort of family conflict.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_02: So it was me going
• 53:01
  Taking the different hat off and going back to sort of
• 53:04
  mediation and peacekeeping
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_02: and what is causing the conflict and then having the aha moment.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_02: Not only do you not see and understand each other,
• 53:16
  you're going to spend forever trying to shift people to
• 53:20
  understand when actually
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_02: what you need to understand is they can't see that perspective.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_02: So you need to come at it from a different
• 53:28
  A bit like a kid who's really struggling with executive
• 53:33
  functioning and the parents
• 53:35
  think it's some sort of moral feeling or their lack of
• 53:39
  motivation or their
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_02: untidiness is because they're just lazy.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's a really common term, right?
• 53:46
  At school I was always called lazy,
• 53:48
  could do better,
• 53:49
  you know,
• 53:50
  all this sort of stuff.
• 53:51
  Very common with dyslexia because the teachers obviously see
• 53:56
  the potential and high potential
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_02: And they get frustrated.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_02: Why is this kid,
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_02: he must be just lazy because he's got the potential,
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_02: he's got the intelligence.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_02: They don't see all the organizational issues,
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_02: all the sensitivity issues,
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_02: the issues in transition and so on and so on.
• 54:13
  So it was my desire to understand and to understand why people
• 54:20
  are falling out and
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_02: getting into conflict.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_02: So in a way I came at it from a very, very different angle.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_02: than you might think.
• 54:32
  The other thing is I noticed working very closely with people
• 54:37
  who had perhaps a
• 54:38
  mental health diagnosis that when their frustration with not
• 54:44
  being understood and
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_02: their frustration with environments and transitions,
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_02: when that was witnessed,
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_02: there was a real settling down.
• 54:57
  There was like a,
• 54:57
  a,
• 54:58
  nearly a shift to embodiment that surprised them and me at the
• 55:07
  same time.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because what,
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_02: what was clear,
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_02: what was being said to me was things like,
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_02: why can't my father see this or why can't,
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_02: why can't,
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_02: how come you can see this and they can't see this?
• 55:23
  And that was terribly sad to hear because they're surrounded by
• 55:27
  people who perhaps
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: love them,
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: who don't get them.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_02: That has to be something that would cause you extreme strife,
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_02: isolation,
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_02: disassociation,
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_02: all those different things.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of like, it was like what was presenting as something else made
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_02: Total sense.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's a bit like the term imposter syndrome.
• 55:58
  Sometimes people use the term imposter syndrome and it does
• 56:00
  mean potential anxiety,
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_02: like I don't feel good enough.
• 56:05
  But there's also imposter syndrome that's actually not imposter
• 56:10
  syndrome at all.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's hostility in the environment.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_02: I read this article recently by this clinical psychologist that was
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_02: Really brilliant.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_02: So again, it's back to the nuance.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_02: It can be both.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_02: It can be my lack of self-belief.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you hear the story about MIT.
• 56:31
  On the first day,
• 56:31
  they say,
• 56:32
  right,
• 56:32
  Pat,
• 56:32
  put your hands up if you don't think you should be here.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like 90% of the people, right?
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_02: So that to me, that's like an anxiety around imposter syndrome, right?
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_02: Feeling.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's not really a syndrome.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_02: The other one is
• 56:47
  Perhaps I'm a woman of colour in a meeting and the men keep
• 56:49
  interrupting me.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_02: I've been there.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_02: I've witnessed that myself.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_02: Why are you shutting this person down?
• 56:59
  The person has been incredibly expressive of gratitude for
• 57:04
  seeing it and calling it out.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_02: But I had learned that when you see it with your own eyes.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_02: That person could take that on and think, well, that's me.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_02: I don't deserve to be here or whatever,
• 57:15
  when actually it's the environment consciously or unconsciously
• 57:18
  is causing those
• 57:19
  feelings of exclusion or feeling you have to work 10 times
• 57:22
  harder than somebody
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_02: else.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think that kind of going back to what you said about contrast,
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: which I think is really true,
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_00: in many ways,
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: perception itself,
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_00: human perception itself depends on contrast.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_00: So we only perceive light because there is darkness.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: We only recognize quiet because there is sound, noise.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the same principle shows up in many ways in human experiences.
• 57:55
  So sensitivity and insensitivity,
• 57:58
  happiness and sadness,
• 58:01
  and so on and so forth.
• 58:02
  These contrasts create conditions that allow us to perceive
• 58:06
  meaning,
• 58:06
  that allow us to
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_00: Perceived difference.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_00: So when somebody appears very different or very difficult to understand,
• 58:16
  sometimes what we're actually encountering is a form of
• 58:20
  contrast that reveals
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_00: something about the broader landscape of the human experience.
• 58:27
  And when we're able to hold that contrast rather than collapse
• 58:33
  it into judgment,
• 58:36
  It often becomes easier to see the coherence and the uniqueness
• 58:42
  in that person.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that is so much easier said than done.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_02: Why do you think that is?
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think judgment is part of our nature.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, I'm not against judgment.
• 59:09
  I'm also,
• 59:10
  just in addition to judgment,
• 59:12
  interested in exploring everything else.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that judgment is necessarily implies a negative.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I think it's an incredibly important asset.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: But when it comes to people, it's extremely nuanced.
• 59:31
  Yeah,
• 59:31
  well,
• 59:32
  I think there's a difference between judgment and being judgy.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we could get into the semantics.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love it.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, I'm covering this with the term psychophobia.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 59:49
  it's nearly like the fear of the other or the fear of
• 59:52
  difference or the fear of our
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_02: own difference even,
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_02: our own perceived difference.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_02: But there is a tendency to kind of to push away and
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_02: Without taking the time to understand what that difference is,
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_02: it can be heavily misinterpreted.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_02: I can tell you a couple of great examples.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_02: Being a clinician on a ward around,
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_02: terrible experience in London,
• 1:00:24
  just watching patients being asked to come into a room full of
• 1:00:28
  clinicians and
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_02: trainees,
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_02: and I watched how
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_02: The judgments and interpretations of difference were so off.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_02: It was frightening.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_02: So the story of the young woman where,
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:00:44
  10 people agreed she was incoherent and I was working with her
• 1:00:48
  very intensively and
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_02: I went,
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_02: she's funnier than all of you and she's more intelligent.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_02: She's just one question behind.
• 1:00:56
  So if you imagine if I start asking you questions and you're
• 1:00:59
  answering the previous question,
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_02: And the people in the room don't pick up on that.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_02: It sounds like you're incoherent.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_02: The reason she couldn't answer,
• 1:01:09
  she was one question behind was because of the level of
• 1:01:11
  medication she was on.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I had to bring that to the team's attention.
• 1:01:17
  Or a young man of color who they say is getting aggressive when
• 1:01:23
  he's in a room with
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_02: predominantly middle class,
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_02: quite older men.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_02: Psychiatry was like a class, part of the class system in a way.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_02: You're more sort of middle class, upper class to be in medicine.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_02: so psychiatrists tend to,
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_02: in England,
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_02: they would talk with posher voices and yeah,
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_02: right.
• 1:01:45
  So immediately you're potentially interfacing with a class of
• 1:01:50
  people that you've
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_02: never experienced before and nor have they experienced you.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a power dynamic,
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_02: there's a cultural difference,
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_02: there's a,
• 1:01:59
  and you've just taken away this young man's liberty and you're
• 1:02:02
  wondering why he's
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_02: responding,
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_02: but you're pathologizing his response.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_02: That was mind-blowing when you are there to witness that,
• 1:02:11
  to see that mismatch between somebody's lived experience and
• 1:02:14
  then how people in a
• 1:02:16
  position of authority are judging that with consequence and the
• 1:02:21
  consequence could
• 1:02:22
  be your liberty or worse it could be forcibly treated with
• 1:02:28
  medication or restraints
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_02: that could make things much worse.
• 1:02:35
  So I think it's essential for us to take the time to understand
• 1:02:39
  difference and not
• 1:02:41
  make too many assumptions that have ramifications over that
• 1:02:46
  person's life.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_00: I agree with you.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think it is absolutely essential.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_02: The bad news is I don't think it's getting any better.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think economically
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_02: The systems are looking for faster, quicker results.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_02: Faster,
• 1:03:08
  quicker results don't lend themselves to spending longer times
• 1:03:14
  up close and
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_02: personal with people.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's usually a tick box mentality,
• 1:03:21
  a McDonaldization encounter where I have to get through this
• 1:03:24
  interview with these
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_02: predestined questions and I have to tick these boxes.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's not an encounter.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it is an encounter, but it's an encounter of sorts, right?
• 1:03:37
  Sitting in silence with a veteran who's had a heavy traumatic
• 1:03:43
  experience,
• 1:03:45
  that's an encounter.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 1:03:52
  It is and the veterans population especially so because so much
• 1:03:57
  of their PTSD is
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_00: connected to their fight or flight response.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_00: So this environment,
• 1:04:04
  that population has been really fascinating to work with
• 1:04:07
  because of how directly
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_00: it's connected.
• 1:04:09
  I agree that I think that understanding differences is
• 1:04:16
  absolutely essential and I think in
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's lots of examples as to why that's the case.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_00: Contrast is what allows us to recognize everything at all.
• 1:04:32
  And at the same time,
• 1:04:34
  I tend to feel optimistic about where we're going in the world.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_00: History shows that as our systems of communication and knowledge expand,
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_00: people are gradually exposed to more perspectives than ever before.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_00: So that doesn't always make things look better in the short term.
• 1:04:55
  Sometimes it makes differences more visible and that can create
• 1:04:59
  a lot of tension.
• 1:05:01
  But over time,
• 1:05:02
  I think that exposure can also expand our capacity to
• 1:05:06
  understand one another.
• 1:05:08
  So I see this current moment less as decline and more as a kind
• 1:05:13
  of transition.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we're learning,
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_00: sometimes in a very clumsy way,
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_00: how to navigate a world with far more visible diversity of thought,
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_00: of culture,
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_00: of experience than ever before.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that difference has always existed.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_00: What's changing is our ability to see it and to engage with it.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm going to say to you what I said to other people this week.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_02: You're a highly evolved, high vibrational being.
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_02: I encounter a lot of people who are not in that category,
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_02: whose consciousness is at the level of the tribe.
• 1:06:08
  And they have not got to the position where they can see beyond
• 1:06:12
  the tribe and the
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_02: potential for contrast,
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_02: collaboration,
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_02: community,
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_02: peace beyond their own.
• 1:06:25
  and whether that's a manufactured tribe or not in terms of just
• 1:06:27
  like say a
• 1:06:28
  political identification but there's this polarization that I
• 1:06:35
  see and connect with
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_02: an emotional regression so if you like the child sees good and bad
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_02: So it idolizes and denigrates.
• 1:06:53
  It can love someone on the playground at the beginning of the
• 1:06:57
  break and say,
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_02: you're not my friend,
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_02: I hate you at the end.
• 1:07:01
  As they develop,
• 1:07:02
  they see that actually I can love someone and they can do
• 1:07:06
  things I don't like.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_02: Or I can not like someone and they do things that I do like.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_02: That's like the maturing.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_02: They move away from fairy tales.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_02: And they look for stories that are more complex and less defined.
• 1:07:19
  But what I witness in society at the minute is this shift away
• 1:07:24
  from that nuance and
• 1:07:25
  that contrast to all the good is in our space and all the bad
• 1:07:30
  is in your space.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_02: That can't possibly be true.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_02: There has to be some good and bad on both or all camps.
• 1:07:40
  A bit like going into kids and talking about drugs and saying
• 1:07:44
  it's all bad.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's a nonsense.
• 1:07:47
  Everyone knows that there are some qualities on drugs or else
• 1:07:51
  people wouldn't do
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_02: them in the first place.
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_02: How do we get people
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_02: to appreciate nuance,
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_02: difference,
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_02: less polarization than they are currently able to accept,
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_02: do you think?
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_00: So many things.
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_00: How do we get people to embrace nuance?
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 1:08:17
  it's interesting because what you're describing also shows up
• 1:08:20
  in developmental
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_00: psychology.
• 1:08:22
  You know,
• 1:08:23
  early on the mind organizes the world in very simple
• 1:08:28
  categories.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_00: Good, bad, safe, unsafe, right and wrong.
• 1:08:32
  And those distinctions are useful at first because they help us
• 1:08:36
  to orient ourselves.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_00: But as people mature, their capacity for nuance ideally expands.
• 1:08:45
  You know,
• 1:08:46
  we start to recognize that multiple things can be true at the
• 1:08:49
  same time.
• 1:08:50
  I think that the challenge is that nuance requires a certain
• 1:08:54
  kind of stability.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_00: So when people feel overwhelmed or they feel threatened,
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_00: the mind often collapses back into simpler,
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_00: familiar categories.
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_00: So part of the question may not be how we force people to embrace nuance,
• 1:09:12
  but how we create an environment where people feel safe enough
• 1:09:15
  to tolerate
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_00: complexity.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_02: How do you create environments where people can tolerate complexity?
• 1:09:25
  And I think the ability to tolerate complexity is closely tied
• 1:09:29
  to the conditions around us.
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so when people are overwhelmed,
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_00: when they're threatened,
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_00: when they're overstimulated,
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_00: like I was saying before,
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_00: the mind naturally simplifies the world into clear categories.
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's a very protective response.
• 1:09:46
  But when the environment is calm,
• 1:09:49
  supportive,
• 1:09:50
  and allows people to slow down,
• 1:09:53
  then
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_00: Their system tends to relax.
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_00: And when that happens,
• 1:09:58
  people often become more capable of holding multiple
• 1:10:02
  perspectives at once.
• 1:10:03
  So in many ways,
• 1:10:05
  I think that the question isn't only intellectual,
• 1:10:08
  I think it's environmental.
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 1:10:11
  SPEAKER_00: how do we design spaces,
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_00: conditions,
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_00: conversations,
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:10:15
  even social conditions where people feel stable enough to
• 1:10:18
  remain curious rather
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_00: than defensive.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_00: When curiosity stays present, nuance becomes much easier to tolerate.
• 1:10:31
  And I think that complexity is easier to explore when the
• 1:10:37
  environment reduces the
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_00: need for certainty.
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_02: Strong.
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think is it, well, fear?
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_02: when you were talking,
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_02: I thought,
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:10:47
  can you really ask people to look at the nuance and look at
• 1:10:50
  different perspectives
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_02: if they feel threatened and are fearful?
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think that fear plays a big role in this.
• 1:11:01
  When people feel afraid,
• 1:11:03
  I think the mind also,
• 1:11:05
  you know,
• 1:11:05
  naturally simplifies.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_00: So nuance requires a certain tolerance for uncertainty.
• 1:11:13
  And that means holding ideas that don't resolve immediately
• 1:11:18
  into right or wrong.
• 1:11:21
  So one of the challenges is that if people are operating in a
• 1:11:25
  state of fear or a
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_00: state of instability,
• 1:11:28
  SPEAKER_00: the mind tends to retreat into simpler narratives.
• 1:11:32
  I think that if we create environments where people can
• 1:11:35
  tolerate complexity,
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_00: It often means reducing that sense of threat.
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_02: the thing is,
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_02: and again,
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just riffing off what you're saying,
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_02: is what jumped to mind is certainty is seductive.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_02: So actually being a bigot is much easier than holding both perspectives.
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's why the easy answer of they're the problem.
• 1:12:11
  SPEAKER_02: They're the problem.
• 1:12:12
  SPEAKER_02: We're not the problem.
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_02: They're the problem.
• 1:12:15
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's good.
• 1:12:15
  SPEAKER_02: I like that.
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_02: I like being on the team that's not the problem.
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_02: I noticed that growing up in Northern Ireland,
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_02: when I saw through the futility of that conflict,
• 1:12:27
  SPEAKER_02: it was like I missed the simplicity of they're the enemy.
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like holding the position of maybe they aren't the anime,
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_02: maybe this is way more complex than I was told growing up.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_02: But I remember this point,
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_02: I remember there was a bunch of,
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_02: somebody said,
• 1:12:50
  some politicians said they should get an incinerator and burn
• 1:12:54
  all Catholics.
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_02: Geordie Seed, right?
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, he was murdered for it.
• 1:12:59
  Somebody repeated this in class,
• 1:13:01
  and I stood up and said,
• 1:13:02
  this is wrong,
• 1:13:02
  you can't say that.
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_02: When I got outside,
• 1:13:04
  SPEAKER_02: there was a bunch of boys waiting for me to give me a beating,
• 1:13:08
  SPEAKER_02: just because I had the audacity to say,
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_02: that's not right.
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_02: But I remember a few years after,
• 1:13:18
  SPEAKER_02: thinking back to,
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_02: wow,
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_02: it would have been easier just to hold the non-nuanced position.
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_02: There's an appeal to
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think both.
• 1:13:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's best to embrace both.
• 1:13:36
  I've been having some conversations recently with a friend
• 1:13:40
  about how we'd really
• 1:13:43
  SPEAKER_00: like to embrace the idea of being less emotionally tied to things.
• 1:13:52
  I was taking the surf lesson and we had some kind of type of
• 1:13:56
  little conflict with
• 1:13:57
  with our surf instructor and as he was walking away we were
• 1:14:04
  talking about after
• 1:14:05
  kind of monitoring his like disposition and you know what he
• 1:14:08
  was like and this is
• 1:14:09
  very you know relaxed California surfer guy who's out here and
• 1:14:14
  we said you know he
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_00: probably isn't walking away with that conflict
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 1:14:21
  and then like bringing it with him on his walk back to the surf
• 1:14:24
  shop and into the,
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_00: and maybe this isn't true,
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_00: but just for the sake of,
• 1:14:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_00: exploration.
• 1:14:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_00: what if part of being emotionally less in tune,
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_00: say,
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_00: thinking so deeply,
• 1:14:42
  SPEAKER_00: intellectualizing all this,
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_00: all sorts of things like,
• 1:14:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:14:46
  SPEAKER_00: what if there's a sense of peace in that as well?
• 1:14:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's simplicity.
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_00: But back to what you were saying before,
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think that certainty is seductive because it simplifies
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_00: How we perceive things.
• 1:15:02
  And I think that the human perceptual system is consistently
• 1:15:05
  trying to organize
• 1:15:07
  SPEAKER_00: complexity into stable patterns.
• 1:15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Certainty provides that stability.
• 1:15:11
  SPEAKER_00: It allows the mind to stop evaluating alternatives.
• 1:15:16
  But the trade-off is that once a pattern feels certain,
• 1:15:20
  curiosity tends to diminish.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_00: And curiosity is often what allows a deeper understanding to emerge.
• 1:15:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, once I know or think I know, I close down.
• 1:15:41
  SPEAKER_02: It closes down the curiosity.
• 1:15:43
  I think curiosity from a clinical point of view is one of the
• 1:15:46
  most important words,
• 1:15:48
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:15:48
  SPEAKER_02: to encourage.
• 1:15:50
  SPEAKER_02: Let's be curious about what's going on here.
• 1:15:52
  It's so beautiful and it has a lightness of touch rather than I
• 1:15:56
  know what's going on for you.
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_02: I know what's wrong.
• 1:16:00
  It's more like,
• 1:16:02
  I wonder what,
• 1:16:02
  let's try and understand what might be going on.
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_02: That's beautiful.
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_02: Once I know what's going on, there's less curiosity.
• 1:16:11
  SPEAKER_02: Why do you think it killed the cat though?
• 1:16:16
  SPEAKER_02: I was always curious about that, right?
• 1:16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:16:21
  The difficulty is I see with young people,
• 1:16:23
  God,
• 1:16:24
  I sound old saying young people,
• 1:16:26
  right?
• 1:16:28
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes they're given very easy cooker-cutty,
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_02: cooker-cutty,
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_02: cooker-cutty,
• 1:16:33
  SPEAKER_02: cooker-cutty,
• 1:16:34
  cooker-cutty answers that who wouldn't want certainty in such
• 1:16:42
  an uncertain world.
• 1:16:44
  But those views become very simplistic and very hardened and
• 1:16:48
  close down other
• 1:16:49
  SPEAKER_02: perspectives to the detriment of their experience,
• 1:16:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think.
• 1:16:55
  SPEAKER_02: But I totally empathize why
• 1:16:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's so seductive.
• 1:16:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if you go, here's the problem, here's the cause of the problem.
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
• 1:17:06
  That's much more appealing than,
• 1:17:08
  I'm not really,
• 1:17:09
  I don't really understand the problem.
• 1:17:10
  I certainly don't understand the cause,
• 1:17:11
  who's to blame and,
• 1:17:13
  you know,
• 1:17:13
  so on.
• 1:17:15
  SPEAKER_02: And again,
• 1:17:17
  SPEAKER_02: it's this idea of,
• 1:17:19
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:17:19
  being able to think a bit more critically about things in a
• 1:17:23
  place of safety.
• 1:17:26
  SPEAKER_02: I draw a parallel a little bit with the cancel culture.
• 1:17:29
  SPEAKER_02: So one of the things I observe with the cancel culture,
• 1:17:34
  and I mean even people being fired because the company's afraid
• 1:17:40
  of what they've
• 1:17:40
  SPEAKER_02: done might blow back.
• 1:17:42
  SPEAKER_02: What I'm really picking up on is there's no chance for redemption.
• 1:17:45
  SPEAKER_02: There's no chance to learn.
• 1:17:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like if I've done something to hurt you and I just kind of get cut off,
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_02: There's no chance for me really to learn why I hurt you,
• 1:17:58
  SPEAKER_02: what that was like for you,
• 1:18:00
  SPEAKER_02: how to change my view so that I don't hurt anyone else.
• 1:18:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's just like... No nuance, no curiosity.
• 1:18:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's just like...
• 1:18:11
  The other thing I pick up on is sometimes people have to fumble
• 1:18:18
  through their
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_02: understanding to get to the deeper truth and meaning.
• 1:18:23
  SPEAKER_02: But sometimes for me to fumble through,
• 1:18:25
  SPEAKER_02: to understand,
• 1:18:27
  SPEAKER_02: I might say things that aren't appropriate,
• 1:18:31
  SPEAKER_02: that might offend,
• 1:18:32
  SPEAKER_02: that might be difficult.
• 1:18:34
  But if I'm completely shut down in that process,
• 1:18:37
  I'm not going to get to the other side.
• 1:18:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think those things are just part of the process.
• 1:18:49
  To your point about the importance of contrast,
• 1:18:55
  one could argue they're necessary.
• 1:18:57
  SPEAKER_02: Should I say more about that?
• 1:19:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm mostly referring to what you said about what if I hurt someone,
• 1:19:08
  SPEAKER_00: what if I make mistakes,
• 1:19:09
  SPEAKER_00: what if I hurt myself,
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_00: all of that.
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just simply saying let's assume those things were necessary.
• 1:19:18
  SPEAKER_02: Necessary to hurt?
• 1:19:19
  SPEAKER_00: To get you to, you know, wherever you went as a result.
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, yeah.
• 1:19:26
  So because there's this thing between the difference between
• 1:19:28
  intention and impact.
• 1:19:31
  So I might say something that really upsets you,
• 1:19:36
  but that was not my intention.
• 1:19:38
  So what happens is people go,
• 1:19:40
  but it wasn't my intention to hurt you,
• 1:19:41
  Emma.
• 1:19:43
  But then I closed down the opportunity to understand,
• 1:19:46
  but it still had an impact.
• 1:19:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:19:49
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a bit like,
• 1:19:50
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know whether you noticed the,
• 1:19:52
  it was a huge story about the BAFTAs in the UK where the kid
• 1:19:55
  with Tourette's.
• 1:19:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not familiar.
• 1:19:59
  He said a couple,
• 1:20:01
  so there was no,
• 1:20:03
  there was a kid there,
• 1:20:03
  sorry,
• 1:20:04
  he's a grown man.
• 1:20:06
  It's a big movie called I Swear and it's about a drama about a
• 1:20:11
  real guy who had Tourette's.
• 1:20:13
  SPEAKER_02: So two black actors got up to take an award for Sinners,
• 1:20:20
  SPEAKER_02: and as they get up he said a couple of racial slurs,
• 1:20:26
  SPEAKER_02: that if you understand Tourette's you can understand how it happens,
• 1:20:31
  SPEAKER_02: but it still had an impact.
• 1:20:34
  So it's very important to recognize that even though that was
• 1:20:39
  not the young man's
• 1:20:42
  SPEAKER_02: intention,
• 1:20:43
  SPEAKER_02: it's had a huge impact on people.
• 1:20:47
  And I think sometimes that we focus on intention and then the
• 1:20:53
  impact gets lost.
• 1:20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:20:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:20:58
  And again that takes us to enter a space that is uncomfortable
• 1:21:03
  and difficult and
• 1:21:04
  SPEAKER_02: challenging to have that conversation.
• 1:21:08
  SPEAKER_02: Both are true.
• 1:21:10
  Both here's somebody who's suffering from an affliction that
• 1:21:14
  they have no control
• 1:21:15
  over and who's trying to bring attention to a broader audience
• 1:21:20
  and then here's two
• 1:21:20
  people at a peak moment in their life that gets overshadowed
• 1:21:25
  briefly with this
• 1:21:26
  SPEAKER_02: terrible experience that they had.
• 1:21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:21:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's complex.
• 1:21:32
  SPEAKER_00: It is complex.
• 1:21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:21:35
  SPEAKER_02: Is there anything I
• 1:21:38
  SPEAKER_02: needed to ask you or you wanted me to ask you?
• 1:21:41
  Maybe to circle back to the conditions under which we met with
• 1:21:46
  the anechoet
• 1:21:46
  SPEAKER_00: chamber,
• 1:21:47
  SPEAKER_00: with your experience in there.
• 1:21:49
  I don't think I really very clearly answered your question
• 1:21:52
  before about where are
• 1:21:53
  SPEAKER_00: we going with all of this.
• 1:21:56
  SPEAKER_00: And where we're going is
• 1:21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Historically,
• 1:22:00
  we have always relied on people to come to us in order to
• 1:22:05
  experience our facility,
• 1:22:07
  SPEAKER_00: to be immersed in our practice.
• 1:22:10
  SPEAKER_00: And over the past two,
• 1:22:12
  SPEAKER_00: three years as I've been running this therapeutics program,
• 1:22:15
  SPEAKER_00: it's based in Minneapolis exclusively.
• 1:22:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's based out of the Anticolor Chamber exclusively.
• 1:22:21
  SPEAKER_00: And we have many people come in from all over the world for sessions.
• 1:22:25
  SPEAKER_00: I have clients that are local, international.
• 1:22:30
  SPEAKER_00: And we would,
• 1:22:32
  SPEAKER_00: in addition to that,
• 1:22:34
  like to see this potential therapeutic modality being developed
• 1:22:40
  far outside of the
• 1:22:42
  SPEAKER_00: walls of our building.
• 1:22:44
  SPEAKER_00: We'd like to
• 1:22:46
  SPEAKER_00: See how it can manifest into various wellness environments,
• 1:22:51
  SPEAKER_00: various therapeutic environments,
• 1:22:52
  SPEAKER_00: various medical environments,
• 1:22:54
  SPEAKER_00: corporate environments.
• 1:22:56
  SPEAKER_00: So we're looking at how a
• 1:23:00
  Physical space can be developed that resembles the experience
• 1:23:04
  of the Anacoa Chamber
• 1:23:06
  SPEAKER_00: to help all sorts of populations of people because it is so broad.
• 1:23:11
  SPEAKER_00: My clients are so broad in their demographics.
• 1:23:17
  And part of that is about feeling that we owe it to our clients
• 1:23:22
  to also to come to them.
• 1:23:27
  And part of it is that we feel that we're on the edge of what
• 1:23:31
  could be a really
• 1:23:33
  SPEAKER_00: significant modality.
• 1:23:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, I concur.
• 1:23:41
  I'm really taken by the depth of your knowledge,
• 1:23:46
  your thoughtfulness,
• 1:23:47
  your experience.
• 1:23:49
  Your curiosity and your desire to bring it to more people
• 1:23:54
  because I think it would be helpful.
• 1:23:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's going to happen in a big way.
• 1:23:57
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think Steve will come on?
• 1:23:59
  SPEAKER_00: For the podcast?
• 1:24:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:24:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think he would love to.
• 1:24:05
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 1:24:07
  SPEAKER_02: I always feel enriched,
• 1:24:09
  SPEAKER_02: expanded,
• 1:24:10
  SPEAKER_02: inspired,
• 1:24:12
  SPEAKER_02: left with the feeling of I want to do more in the world.
• 1:24:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think I said to you, you're an old soul.
• 1:24:18
  SPEAKER_02: I hope that wasn't an insult.
• 1:24:22
  The depth of your knowledge and your presence speaks to me of
• 1:24:27
  someone who's been
• 1:24:29
  SPEAKER_02: around for a long time.
• 1:24:33
  SPEAKER_00: That could be true.
• 1:24:36
  SPEAKER_02: Many lifetimes, I think.
• 1:24:38
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking of lack of certainty versus certainty,
• 1:24:44
  SPEAKER_00: on that one,
• 1:24:46
  SPEAKER_00: I live in the realm of uncertainty and I'm,
• 1:24:50
  SPEAKER_00: to be honest,
• 1:24:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm perfectly content there.
• 1:24:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 1:24:55
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 1:24:56
  SPEAKER_02: I remain in the area of uncertainty,
• 1:24:58
  but when I meet people like you and then I meet people who have
• 1:25:01
  a connection with
• 1:25:02
  SPEAKER_02: like you,
• 1:25:03
  SPEAKER_02: I go,
• 1:25:03
  SPEAKER_02: that's something more than just this,
• 1:25:06
  SPEAKER_02: surely.
• 1:25:08
  Maybe that's my own fantasy,
• 1:25:10
  but I mean it as a deep compliment to who you are.
• 1:25:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's an absolute pleasure, both you and Steve.
• 1:25:16
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for your time.
• 1:25:18
  SPEAKER_02: I hope you enjoy the rest of your trip.
• 1:25:20
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're talking to Steve, send him my love.
• 1:25:22
  SPEAKER_02: I will be in touch.
• 1:25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I definitely will.
• 1:25:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'll reach out to him.
• 1:25:26
  SPEAKER_02: So let's speak soon.
• 1:25:28
  SPEAKER_02: Enjoy yourself.
• 1:25:29
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:25:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'll catch up.
• 1:25:31
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:25:32
  SPEAKER_02: Catch up when you get back.
• 1:25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 1:25:34
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:25:34
  SPEAKER_00: We'll talk soon.
• 1:25:35
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 1:25:36
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks.
• 1:25:36
  SPEAKER_02: Bye.