Latest / QUESTION EVERYTHING / PRETTY TRAUMATIZING: How to Spot and Heal Generational Trauma with Dr. Melissa WassermanÂ

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PRETTY TRAUMATIZING: How to Spot and Heal Generational Trauma with Dr. Melissa WassermanÂ · QUESTION EVERYTHING

0:00
Speaker 1: The following podcast is a Dear media production.
0:06
Speaker 2: Big Things Happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
0:10
Speaker 2: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe, and each week my guests
0:14
Speaker 2: and I have conversations that put a new spin on pretty.
0:19
Speaker 3: This is pretty smart.
0:22
Speaker 2: So much is passed down through generations, recipes, jewelry, photo albums, stories.
0:30
Speaker 2: Now studies suggest trauma can be passed down too. An
0:35
Speaker 2: emerging line of research is exploring how historical and cultural
0:38
Speaker 2: traumas such as oppression, racism, poverty, financial instability affect people's
0:45
Speaker 2: children for generations. Do some of the clues to our
0:48
Speaker 2: mental health, anxiety, depression, and stress lie in our family's history?
0:54
Speaker 2: Can we inherit trauma? If so, how can you spot
0:58
Speaker 2: the signs? Al Lissa Wasserman is a clinical psychologist who
1:02
Speaker 2: specializes in PTSD, military behavioral health, and couple in family psychology.
1:08
Speaker 2: She formerly worked at UCLA, where she worked as a
1:10
Speaker 2: trauma therapist to individuals. Doctor Wasserman, I am so grateful
1:16
Speaker 2: for your time today because this is a topic I
1:20
Speaker 2: don't know a lot about, and it's also a topic
1:22
Speaker 2: that I think can really help us all understand ourselves better.
1:27
Speaker 2: If you can give us a brief background of how
1:30
Speaker 2: you got into this kind of work and why trauma
1:33
Speaker 2: therapy spoke to you.
1:35
Speaker 1: So it's quite a journey, as you can imagine.
1:39
Speaker 4: I took a class in undergrad at UCSP Go Gauchos
1:44
Speaker 4: and it was about American religion and impact on the
1:48
Speaker 4: Vietnam War, and it was taught by three Vietnam veterans
1:51
Speaker 4: who had vastly different experiences in the war. And in
1:56
Speaker 4: one of the classes, it was about halfway through the semester,
1:58
Speaker 4: they were talking about how well their experiences have impacted
2:02
Speaker 4: their family members. And I remember after the class going
2:06
Speaker 4: up to the professor and I was like, my whole
2:11
Speaker 4: life just clicked and made sense this idea of familial trauma,
2:17
Speaker 4: trauma of our ancestors impacting parents, my parent and particularly
2:22
Speaker 4: my father. And I was like, it makes sense, like
2:26
Speaker 4: the heaven's part of the sunshine through and it like
2:29
Speaker 4: everything sort of clicked. And it was from then that
2:33
Speaker 4: I asked him. I was like, can I please do
2:35
Speaker 4: this final paper on in generational trauma and Holocaust survivors?
2:40
Speaker 4: And it changed the whole trajectory of probably my entire life.
2:46
Speaker 4: After writing this paper and learning more about the research
2:49
Speaker 4: that had been done, and then moving on to take
2:52
Speaker 4: on the research myself and learn more about what intergenerational
2:56
Speaker 4: trauma is, what it looks like, how it impacts us,
3:02
Speaker 4: how it impacts how we view the world, how it
3:04
Speaker 4: impacts our relationships. And it really was sort of the
3:08
Speaker 4: start of a really long and continuous journey.
3:14
Speaker 2: There's not that many people doing this type of work specifically,
3:18
Speaker 2: which is part of the reason I'm so interested to
3:21
Speaker 2: speak to you. For those of us who don't know,
3:24
Speaker 2: I e me what exactly is generational trauma.
3:27
Speaker 1: So essentially, generational trauma is the idea that the adverse
3:33
Speaker 1: consequences or even resiliencies of a traumatic experience is not
3:38
Speaker 1: just limited to the individuals who have been quote unquote
3:42
Speaker 1: like directly.
3:43
Speaker 4: Exposed to the trauma or traumas, and that the effects
3:48
Speaker 4: can actually impact others in the environment or their environment.
3:53
Speaker 4: So maybe that's family, maybe that's friends, maybe that's caregivers,
3:57
Speaker 4: maybe that's just individuals of the same or similar cultural group.
4:02
Speaker 4: And oftentimes this term is referred to as intergenerational trauma,
4:07
Speaker 4: generational trauma, secondary trauma, historical trauma, cultural trauma, and we're
4:13
Speaker 4: all sort of talking about you know, this exposure to
4:17
Speaker 4: a traumatic experience or traumatic experiences is not just limited
4:22
Speaker 4: to one person or the person who has directly been
4:26
Speaker 4: exposed to this event or events, and so another individual
4:33
Speaker 4: can be impacted either in a.
4:35
Speaker 1: Similar way or maybe even in a different way. And
4:38
Speaker 1: really it's.
4:39
Speaker 4: Just the idea that we are collectively sort of impacted
4:43
Speaker 4: by experience, regardless of whether or not we have been
4:48
Speaker 4: the person who has been quote unquote directly exposed or
4:51
Speaker 4: directly witnessed it.
4:53
Speaker 2: So, as I was researching for this, it first came
4:56
Speaker 2: about in a nineteen sixty six study with the children
4:59
Speaker 2: of Holocaust survivor and then again in nineteen eighty eight
5:02
Speaker 2: there was a study that found similar results with the
5:04
Speaker 2: grandchildren of Holocaust survivors. As a granddaughter of a Holocaust survivor,
5:09
Speaker 2: I was obviously really interested in that. I've sort of
5:13
Speaker 2: examined as an armchair theory, some of the things that
5:17
Speaker 2: I feel like have impacted my family. I think there's
5:20
Speaker 2: like an unhealthy relationship with food that's been passed down.
5:23
Speaker 2: There's probably things I don't recognize for people who aren't
5:27
Speaker 2: grandchildren of Holocaust survivors.
5:30
Speaker 3: This extends way further.
5:31
Speaker 2: Can you sort of list out some of the experiences
5:34
Speaker 2: that are considered historical or cultural trauma.
5:37
Speaker 4: So in earlier on research, you said, an earlier study
5:44
Speaker 4: Vivian Rykoff, who was particularly looking at the experiences of
5:49
Speaker 4: children of Holocaust survivors actually while they were in their adolescence.
5:54
Speaker 4: So this sort of first presence of intergenerational trauma, specifically
5:58
Speaker 4: with Holocaust survivors, merges in.
6:01
Speaker 1: The sixties mid sixties.
6:03
Speaker 4: And what they found was that there was this sense
6:06
Speaker 4: of overprotection by parents, this sense of guilt in their children, inhering.
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Speaker 1: Memories of rental suffering.
6:17
Speaker 4: A mistrust or sort of this suspicion of other.
6:20
Speaker 1: People that surround them.
6:22
Speaker 4: So as this started to get noticed, you know, these
6:26
Speaker 4: researchers are like, this feels notable, right, Like this feels
6:30
Speaker 4: like something we're bit we're onto something here, right, And
6:34
Speaker 4: that kind of developed into a plethora of research, particularly
6:40
Speaker 4: into intergenerational Holocaust trauma, but also into intergenerational historical cultural
6:46
Speaker 4: trauma to other groups as well. It wasn't really until
6:50
Speaker 4: fairly recently that third generation started to be studied.
6:55
Speaker 1: And now also we're as.
6:57
Speaker 4: We lead into another generation, and particularly a generation that
7:02
Speaker 4: might not know the first generation of survivors, right, we
7:06
Speaker 4: will likely see that change and morph a little bit.
7:10
Speaker 2: As I was researching for this, a lot that came
7:13
Speaker 2: up was that even the stories in our family that
7:16
Speaker 2: are passed down can affect the way we view the world,
7:21
Speaker 2: our relationships, our anxiety, and so personally. I think one
7:26
Speaker 2: of the stories that was passed down was that you're
7:29
Speaker 2: not safe in the world.
7:31
Speaker 3: The world doesn't have your back because you're a Jew.
7:34
Speaker 2: And it's definitely something that I've thought about and unpacked
7:38
Speaker 2: a little bit in therapy. But I think so many
7:41
Speaker 2: groups of people get different messaging. I mean, I was
7:45
Speaker 2: thinking about how poverty can be really traumatic, racism incredibly traumatic,
7:50
Speaker 2: any form of oppression, I mean, obviously sexual abuse. All
7:55
Speaker 2: of these things that are passed down through generations that
7:58
Speaker 2: we're not really recognizing could be living in our bodies.
8:02
Speaker 4: And there could be instances in our environment, in our
8:05
Speaker 4: lives that reminds us of those thoughts and beliefs. Right, Like,
8:10
Speaker 4: even this idea, let's just use mistrust of the world
8:13
Speaker 4: or mistrust of others as an example.
8:16
Speaker 1: When we experience racism, discrimination, or even when we see
8:21
Speaker 1: these things in the media or on social media or whatnot,
8:25
Speaker 1: those even act as like reminders and almost strengthen that
8:29
Speaker 1: belief of oh whoa like now I can't trust right
8:34
Speaker 1: or well.
8:34
Speaker 2: I mean the example that comes to my mind immediately
8:37
Speaker 2: is during Black Lives Matter this summer. I think for
8:41
Speaker 2: so many people, seeing George Floyd be suffocated was so traumatic.
8:47
Speaker 3: I mean, it just like reinforced all.
8:49
Speaker 2: Of these ideas that are so ingrained in our society.
8:53
Speaker 1: And almost like re traumatize it.
8:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, which, like social media can be so wonderful in
8:59
Speaker 2: some ways, but for people of the black community to
9:02
Speaker 2: have to see that over and over again is horrific.
9:06
Speaker 2: Like it really, it really impacts people.
9:09
Speaker 4: Wholeheartedly, and I think in ways that maybe we don't
9:12
Speaker 4: even think about. And again those beliefs and thoughts just
9:18
Speaker 4: by watching that, being re traumatized by those images or
9:22
Speaker 4: other images, right, it sort of retriggers us and reminds
9:28
Speaker 4: us of whatever thoughts.
9:30
Speaker 1: Might be or mistrust of the world, or mistrust.
9:32
Speaker 4: Of other people, or maybe even that sense of like
9:35
Speaker 4: hypervigilance or withdrawing from others. All those things are sort
9:40
Speaker 4: of re sparked and we're reminded of them in instances
9:44
Speaker 4: like that.
9:45
Speaker 3: So what are forms of generational trauma.
9:48
Speaker 2: I mean, we've we kind of talked about a few oppression, racism, abuse.
9:53
Speaker 3: Are there other less obvious ones that I'm missing?
9:57
Speaker 4: So in terms of what other types of possible intergenerational
10:02
Speaker 4: trauma or intergenerational resilience, there are you know, war related
10:09
Speaker 4: traumas like genocide or maybe even having a parent or
10:13
Speaker 4: a family member who served in the military who was
10:15
Speaker 4: exposed to violence or death in that type of way,
10:20
Speaker 4: being a family member of a victim of crime or
10:24
Speaker 4: maybe even of murder or a sudden or traumatic death,
10:27
Speaker 4: as well instances of being an immigrant or refugee or
10:32
Speaker 4: being displaced, which sort of also goes along with the
10:36
Speaker 4: war related traumas. Those can all be instances of trauma
10:41
Speaker 4: or adverse experiences or intense experience whatever term we want
10:46
Speaker 4: to use, that can be internalized and even passed on generationally.
10:51
Speaker 2: So this is not just a one off experience. It
10:54
Speaker 2: is systematically being exploited or enduring like repeated and content
11:00
Speaker 2: annual bias.
11:00
Speaker 3: It sounds like.
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Speaker 1: It definitely can be.
11:03
Speaker 4: And there has been quite a bit of research into
11:07
Speaker 4: the experience of being an American, Indian or Native American,
11:11
Speaker 4: and that's been even if we think about that generationally, right,
11:15
Speaker 4: that's quite prolonged and continuous. The experience of being the
11:19
Speaker 4: descendant of a slave or an individual who has experienced
11:25
Speaker 4: genocide or persecution, all of those things, you know, as
11:30
Speaker 4: we think of cultural or collective events can be internalized.
11:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I'm fascinated by what the effects of the
11:41
Speaker 2: pandemic will be, particularly on children.
11:44
Speaker 4: Definitely on children and on that interpersonal scale, but also
11:48
Speaker 4: even in thinking about like how much do we talk
11:51
Speaker 4: about the pandemic? Even now, it's like it always comes up, how.
11:55
Speaker 1: Are you, how you know or you know, how have
12:00
Speaker 1: how have things changed? And how are you doing?
12:02
Speaker 4: And it's just all's so it feels so present, and
12:06
Speaker 4: it feels.
12:07
Speaker 1: In so many ways.
12:08
Speaker 4: I know I mentioned this earlier, but like it's so
12:10
Speaker 4: existential and we've had to grapple with meaning and purpose
12:14
Speaker 4: and aloneness and all of the changes to our interpersonal
12:17
Speaker 4: relationships into our careers and how do we make meaning?
12:21
Speaker 1: And it's so loaded.
12:25
Speaker 2: I don't know if you feel comfortable going a little
12:27
Speaker 2: bit tangential with this, but based on your experience and
12:31
Speaker 2: work in intergenerational trauma, do you have any sort of
12:35
Speaker 2: predictions on how the pandemic will affect us long term.
12:38
Speaker 4: I would say that, and I wouldn't say it's new,
12:42
Speaker 4: like we hit the year mark and it started. I
12:44
Speaker 4: would probably say that we're in a mental health pandemic,
12:48
Speaker 4: and I'm not sure that we will see it go
12:52
Speaker 4: away anytime soon, like even after. And I know we
12:56
Speaker 4: always say this when things go back. I don't even
12:58
Speaker 4: know what that means.
12:59
Speaker 1: What are we going on? What is going back too? Right?
13:02
Speaker 4: I think that this heightened and elevated sense of anxiety
13:07
Speaker 4: or depression or trauma, I'm not sure that that will
13:12
Speaker 4: go away, even when you know the health related part
13:17
Speaker 4: of the current pandemic goes away.
13:20
Speaker 2: So when you say go away, like what are what
13:23
Speaker 2: are symptoms you're seeing? Like the anxiety won't go away?
13:26
Speaker 4: The what I don't like, the anxiety or the sadness
13:33
Speaker 4: or the mood. I'm not sure that those things will
13:36
Speaker 4: will go away. And I don't know what it's going
13:39
Speaker 4: to look like right. Maybe maybe we're developing even like
13:42
Speaker 4: a new baseline of what that looks like as a
13:45
Speaker 4: community now. But I think that really sense of heightened anxiety,
13:50
Speaker 4: the uncertainty, the unknown, I'm not sure that those things
13:55
Speaker 4: will go away and the anxiety about those things.
13:58
Speaker 3: Yeah, and just got.
14:00
Speaker 4: Real down about this, right, I don't know if I
14:03
Speaker 4: think there's also With that said, with any sense of
14:06
Speaker 4: trauma or adverse experiences, there's always resilience there and whether
14:11
Speaker 4: and whatever that looks like. And I think that looks
14:13
Speaker 4: different for everyone, just like I think the way trauma
14:16
Speaker 4: manifests can look different for everyone. I think resilience will
14:20
Speaker 4: also emerge out of it.
14:23
Speaker 3: I want to touch on that.
14:24
Speaker 2: So with trauma, basically there is also a resilience that
14:28
Speaker 2: oftentimes happens.
14:30
Speaker 3: Can you speak about that?
14:32
Speaker 1: Yeah?
14:32
Speaker 4: I love talking about resilience. It's one of my favorite words.
14:37
Speaker 4: And even as we think about right, and even in
14:39
Speaker 4: the research that I've done with second and third generation
14:42
Speaker 4: Holocaust survivors, there's one statement that came out of the
14:47
Speaker 4: interviews that I did with second and their generation Holocaust
14:51
Speaker 4: survivors that really stuck with me and I think really
14:55
Speaker 4: applies to my life and I want to get a
14:58
Speaker 4: sense of how.
14:58
Speaker 1: It applies to you. Well. I had one third generation survivor.
15:03
Speaker 4: In interviews refer to her inner sense of resilience, and
15:07
Speaker 4: she didn't use the word resilience. She used the word
15:10
Speaker 4: Holocaust strength, and how in so many ways the experiences
15:16
Speaker 4: of her grandparents live on within her as a sense
15:21
Speaker 4: of strength and resiliency.
15:24
Speaker 1: And that really got me thinking.
15:27
Speaker 4: And it applies to a phrase that I say oftentimes
15:32
Speaker 4: to myself even when I experience challenges or bumps in
15:36
Speaker 4: the road. And it sounds kind of morbid to say
15:39
Speaker 4: it out loud, but what I say to myself is,
15:42
Speaker 4: you know, your grandmother watched her whole entire family get murdered,
15:46
Speaker 4: and she was able to build this beautiful life in
15:49
Speaker 4: their honor, and they lived through her in this sense
15:54
Speaker 4: of resilience and strength. And so even as you think
15:57
Speaker 4: about your experiences, what are resiliencies or strengths that you
16:03
Speaker 4: derive from your grandparents experience?
16:06
Speaker 2: I think, I mean, the first thing that comes to
16:08
Speaker 2: mind is I had a great great aunt who just
16:12
Speaker 2: passed away, and before that, I was on the phone
16:15
Speaker 2: with her, and it was before I was launching the podcast,
16:17
Speaker 2: and she was like, what's taking so long? And I
16:20
Speaker 2: was like, well, there's like a lot of things that
16:22
Speaker 2: go into launching this, and she was like, Danielle, I
16:25
Speaker 2: came here with no money, I didn't know the language.
16:28
Speaker 2: I had just seen horrific things, and I built a
16:32
Speaker 2: business and a life, and we were fine.
16:34
Speaker 3: You can launch a podcast.
16:37
Speaker 2: I was like, well, damn, Margie, you're right, which is
16:42
Speaker 2: like a funny anecdote, but I think that idea lives
16:46
Speaker 2: on within me.
16:47
Speaker 3: Often I find strength in their story.
16:50
Speaker 2: I know my mom does as well, because when the
16:53
Speaker 2: pandemic hit, I flew to Chicago and stayed with my
16:56
Speaker 2: parents for a bit, and I was really freaked out
16:59
Speaker 2: by everything that was happening, and my mom was seemingly fine,
17:02
Speaker 2: and she was like, we'll get through it. Like our
17:05
Speaker 2: you know, my mom, her parents, they made it through
17:08
Speaker 2: much worse.
17:09
Speaker 3: Well, we're going to get through this.
17:11
Speaker 2: So the idea of perseverance and resilience, I think does
17:15
Speaker 2: really live in me. But that's one of the positive
17:19
Speaker 2: stories that I've been told, right.
17:21
Speaker 4: Right, well, and not to use that too as a
17:24
Speaker 4: way to minimize our own suffering experiences, right, like, we
17:28
Speaker 4: are also still allowed to have emotions about things, right,
17:31
Speaker 4: but and so it's not used as a way to
17:33
Speaker 4: sort of like minimize our own struggle. But sometimes in
17:37
Speaker 4: some ways it can put a little bit of air
17:39
Speaker 4: in our tires of like yo, okay, like they went
17:43
Speaker 4: through hell and back and exactly like your great great
17:48
Speaker 4: aunt said, right, came here with nothing in the life
17:51
Speaker 4: and all those things, and we can find strength in
17:55
Speaker 4: their stories.
17:56
Speaker 1: That's not to say that that's the only part we
17:58
Speaker 1: take from their stories, right, there's the.
18:00
Speaker 4: Whole other part as well that we can internalize and
18:04
Speaker 4: that can live through us and all of those things,
18:06
Speaker 4: and we can hold that in the same space as
18:09
Speaker 4: the strength and resiliencies and post traumatic growth that has
18:12
Speaker 4: also emerged simultaneously.
18:14
Speaker 2: You know, as I was researching this, I just kept
18:17
Speaker 2: going back to the Black Lives Matter movement this summer.
18:21
Speaker 2: Any person who is of a marginalized community has a
18:25
Speaker 2: deeper empathy sympathy understanding, but we can never truly understand
18:30
Speaker 2: what it's like to live another person's experience. What are
18:34
Speaker 2: some of the symptoms of generational trauma, specifically through racism
18:39
Speaker 2: that you think people don't fully understand.
18:43
Speaker 4: Well, when we even sort of talk about this idea
18:47
Speaker 4: of historical trauma, there's a couple of assumptions and themes.
18:52
Speaker 1: That go along with it.
18:53
Speaker 4: And even as I think about these themes, they occur
18:58
Speaker 4: in a variety of different cultures, groups, and experiences.
19:01
Speaker 1: So that first.
19:03
Speaker 4: Assumption is that the trauma was intentionally inflicted on a
19:07
Speaker 4: marginalized group by a dominant group.
19:10
Speaker 1: So as we think about this phase.
19:13
Speaker 4: Or how this theme emerge, a dominant culture perpetuates either
19:19
Speaker 4: mass traumas or trauma on a specific marginalized group or population,
19:25
Speaker 4: and oftentimes this can result in cultural, familial, societal, or
19:30
Speaker 4: economic devastation or dramatic change for a specific group or population.
19:35
Speaker 4: So when we even think about that, right like colonization
19:39
Speaker 4: or slavery or genocide or targeting.
19:43
Speaker 1: A specific group of people is included in that.
19:47
Speaker 4: And then our second assumption is that the trauma is
19:49
Speaker 4: continuous and prolonged, so rather than sort of a single
19:53
Speaker 4: isolated event.
19:54
Speaker 1: It's continued.
19:55
Speaker 4: So in that instance, right, continued discrimination, continued target and
20:00
Speaker 4: continued hate, continued power differential and power dynamic right, dominant group,
20:05
Speaker 4: marginalized group, and all of the micro aggressions and things
20:10
Speaker 4: that are involved in that. And then the third part
20:13
Speaker 4: is this shared traumatic experience in which the trauma, traumatic
20:16
Speaker 4: event or events, they remain constantly present and pervasive in
20:21
Speaker 4: some way.
20:22
Speaker 1: And lastly, this.
20:23
Speaker 4: Exposure or these traumatic experiences adverse experiences, they shift and
20:29
Speaker 4: alter the path of the population. So the example of
20:35
Speaker 4: the Holocaust or the Jewish experience, the Jewish diaspora, right,
20:38
Speaker 4: the mass immigration through the US or Canada or other
20:43
Speaker 4: countries away from Europe after the war. So use it
20:48
Speaker 4: in using that example. And that's just one example, right,
20:51
Speaker 4: There's so many other groups, marginalized populations, marginalized groups, cultures
20:59
Speaker 4: that has examples of all of those things. And so
21:03
Speaker 4: in using the example of for example, like Native Americans, right,
21:07
Speaker 4: this historical loss, continuous loss of population, of land, of family,
21:14
Speaker 4: of culture, of dispersion, and that can have deeply rooted
21:20
Speaker 4: and deeply ingrained consequences throughout generations and throughout the community.
21:26
Speaker 3: So what are some of those consequences?
21:29
Speaker 2: Like, I know, I'm like really drilling down, but I'm
21:31
Speaker 2: fascinated in like I want to better understand how this
21:35
Speaker 2: shows up, Like how do I how do we know
21:37
Speaker 2: if it's and I know you said it's not either or,
21:40
Speaker 2: but like, how can we better understand our own family
21:44
Speaker 2: history to sort of understand if this is showing up?
21:48
Speaker 4: Yeah, and thinking about the example, you know, in Native
21:51
Speaker 4: American populations, and I use that example too as a
21:56
Speaker 4: member of that community. And so in thinking about you know,
22:00
Speaker 4: this fear of the possibility of experiencing further oppression. And
22:06
Speaker 4: that kind of relates to that sense of mistrust that
22:09
Speaker 4: we talked about earlier that I'm sure other communities and
22:11
Speaker 4: other individuals and other groups can relate to, right, this
22:13
Speaker 4: sense of fear of mistrust, that continued depression, that further
22:18
Speaker 4: oppression could happen another way in sort of thinking about this, right,
22:25
Speaker 4: this is a concept of construct that we don't often.
22:29
Speaker 1: Apply or think about in our lives.
22:31
Speaker 4: And what I find is oftentimes when I bring it up,
22:34
Speaker 4: either with patients or with people that I work, it's
22:38
Speaker 4: almost this like I didn't think about that before. I
22:41
Speaker 4: didn't think about how that might connect to or relate
22:45
Speaker 4: to my experiences. And so when we think about how
22:51
Speaker 4: this emerges or how this might emerge, the question that
22:56
Speaker 4: you can even ask is how do I even connect
22:58
Speaker 4: with those experiences, the experiences of my ancestors, whatever they
23:02
Speaker 4: might be. How do I connect with that? How do
23:05
Speaker 4: I make meaning of that? How does that impact me?
23:09
Speaker 4: And so that's even like that first question, right, And
23:11
Speaker 4: our first step is always like building awareness, right, So
23:15
Speaker 4: building awareness of how do you connect with that part
23:18
Speaker 4: of you? How do you connect with the experiences of
23:21
Speaker 4: the generations that have preceded.
23:23
Speaker 2: You, right, and then probably what were the stories and
23:26
Speaker 2: messages I received?
23:28
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and how are those communicated to me?
23:32
Speaker 2: Right? Because as you're saying this, I'm thinking, like, growing
23:35
Speaker 2: up in poverty, you get so many messages from people
23:40
Speaker 2: around you, from society, from potentially your parents. Yeah, that
23:46
Speaker 2: the world doesn't have your back. I think we forget
23:50
Speaker 2: that poverty can be a really traumatic experience.
23:54
Speaker 1: I think you're right. I think wholeheartedly you're right.
23:58
Speaker 4: And so even in thinking about what were those messages
24:03
Speaker 4: and how are they and what are those continued messages? Right,
24:05
Speaker 4: It's not like they just magically disappear. What are those
24:08
Speaker 4: continued messages? And how do I interact with with that?
24:14
Speaker 1: Right?
24:14
Speaker 2: So, like, if you have a parent who deals with addiction,
24:18
Speaker 2: the question is how did that behavior, How did those
24:22
Speaker 2: stories impact you? How do I make meaning out of
24:26
Speaker 2: the messages that were sent to me?
24:29
Speaker 4: And how do I connect with that part of my experience?
24:32
Speaker 3: Interesting?
24:33
Speaker 4: And or like even how do I connect with that
24:35
Speaker 4: part of my life or that part of my identity?
24:39
Speaker 2: So there are so many different marginalized groups. Does generational
24:44
Speaker 2: trauma manifest itself differently in different groups through different lineage,
24:49
Speaker 2: or are there similarities that you see across the board.
24:53
Speaker 4: It's a good question, and I think in terms of
24:57
Speaker 4: the research that's been done. Thus are I know it's
25:01
Speaker 4: such a cop bad answer. I hate this answer, but
25:03
Speaker 4: like both both are true, right, Like there are definitely
25:06
Speaker 4: some similarities and experiences, and there's definitely experiences that are
25:12
Speaker 4: a little bit different in terms of how generations connect
25:17
Speaker 4: with their ancestors' experiences and how that continues to manifest
25:22
Speaker 4: in their life and so on and so forth, and
25:26
Speaker 4: so in speaking about for example, a similarity has often
25:31
Speaker 4: and something that's often been studied in different types of
25:34
Speaker 4: intergenerational traumas like parent child relationship, and that includes communication, right,
25:40
Speaker 4: How are atrocities or experiences or traumas communicated from one
25:46
Speaker 4: generation to the next. And sometimes it is communicated by
25:52
Speaker 4: not being communicated or it's what Danielli, who's a researcher
25:59
Speaker 4: speaks about, is this sort of conspiracy of silence. So
26:02
Speaker 4: it's not communicated from generation to the subsequent generation, but
26:07
Speaker 4: the subsequent generation is almost too scared to ask about
26:11
Speaker 4: it because they don't want to upset or retraumatize their
26:16
Speaker 4: parents or grandparents, and so this sort of conspiracy of
26:20
Speaker 4: silence or this continued silence in terms of one generation
26:25
Speaker 4: not bringing it up but the other generation not inquiring
26:27
Speaker 4: about it for fear of upsetting them manifests.
26:31
Speaker 1: And so that's.
26:32
Speaker 4: Definitely a common theme that's come up in the research
26:35
Speaker 4: in terms of like communication, So how do I even
26:39
Speaker 4: ask about this?
26:41
Speaker 1: Do I even can I even ask about this?
26:45
Speaker 4: And actually in Holocaust survivors research, it's a very interesting
26:51
Speaker 4: piece and something that I've found in my research thus
26:54
Speaker 4: far is that almost like that second generation, so the children,
26:58
Speaker 4: the direct descendants of Hall cost survivors, they didn't necessarily
27:02
Speaker 4: want to ask about their parents' experience for fear of
27:07
Speaker 4: upsetting them or you know, not wanting to retraumatize them.
27:11
Speaker 4: And for whatever reason, that first generation didn't necessarily very
27:17
Speaker 4: openly discuss their experiences with their children. Now we have
27:22
Speaker 4: the third generation or the grandchildren, that communication seems to
27:26
Speaker 4: be a lot different. And whether or not there was
27:30
Speaker 4: time that went by, or whether or not it wasn't
27:33
Speaker 4: their direct child, it was their grandchild who it felt
27:36
Speaker 4: safer in some way that the grandchildren.
27:40
Speaker 1: What we found asked a lot about.
27:42
Speaker 4: Their grandparents' experience and didn't necessarily not enquire or not
27:46
Speaker 4: ask for fear of upsetting them. And so that communication
27:51
Speaker 4: piece is a really interesting part.
27:55
Speaker 2: So here's something I found fascinating as I was reading
27:58
Speaker 2: about this, I learned that it's not just the victims
28:01
Speaker 2: that can experience this sort of trauma, so catastrophic events,
28:05
Speaker 2: those who experience harm, but those who cause harm, Those
28:09
Speaker 2: who witness harm can feel guilty or remain silent, So
28:14
Speaker 2: descendants of victims or perpetrators can be affected.
28:19
Speaker 3: That is fascinating.
28:21
Speaker 1: I whole heartedly agree. And this idea of intergenerational shame
28:29
Speaker 1: and even shame as a construct in general, is incredibly
28:35
Speaker 1: fascinating and incredibly deep rooted. So this and like even
28:42
Speaker 1: qualitatively in my interactions with let's say, for example, of course,
28:47
Speaker 1: the Holocaust is a large part of my identity. The
28:49
Speaker 1: Holocaust is a large part of my professional life in
28:52
Speaker 1: terms of thinking about intergenerational trauma and all of those things.
28:55
Speaker 1: And so I've had a lot of discussions and particularly
28:59
Speaker 1: even an undergrad when this was emerging as something that
29:03
Speaker 1: I really wanted to study and research.
29:05
Speaker 4: Throughout my career, I had a lot of conversations with
29:09
Speaker 4: a lot of people about it, and one conversation particularly
29:14
Speaker 4: that comes to mind, and I revisited it several times
29:17
Speaker 4: with this individual is I have a friend who is
29:22
Speaker 4: German born and has lived in Germany, who still lives
29:24
Speaker 4: in Germany now, and we've had a lot of conversations
29:28
Speaker 4: about the Holocaust, and in sharing my own research, given
29:34
Speaker 4: this individual's reaction, I almost wanted to do a whole
29:39
Speaker 4: study unjust intergenerational shame, and even in thinking about how
29:46
Speaker 4: German citizens or individuals of German nationality think about or
29:51
Speaker 4: relate to that part of history is incredibly fascinating.
29:57
Speaker 2: It is I love the idea that we are all connected,
30:00
Speaker 2: and so it furthers that idea to me.
30:02
Speaker 4: But even how that, I mean, you mentioned a lot
30:05
Speaker 4: of what you've been thinking about in terms of this
30:07
Speaker 4: topic is Black Lives Matter movement, and so even in
30:10
Speaker 4: thinking about as Americans, how do we connect with that
30:18
Speaker 4: idea of inner generational shame or colonization or slavery or whatever, right,
30:26
Speaker 4: how do we connect with that? I think that's equally
30:31
Speaker 4: a conversation and a dialogue that would be really important
30:35
Speaker 4: to think about.
30:36
Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad you mentioned that because the next part
30:39
Speaker 2: of that is, how do we remedy it?
30:41
Speaker 3: How do we do better? You know, for lack of
30:43
Speaker 3: a better term.
30:45
Speaker 2: So in college I took a sociology class and read
30:48
Speaker 2: that it takes three to four generations to heal sustained trauma.
30:53
Speaker 3: Does your research support that?
30:55
Speaker 4: I want to zoom in on something that you just
30:58
Speaker 4: said when you were asked that question, and your question
31:02
Speaker 4: was how can we do better? And I think that
31:07
Speaker 4: two letter word, I think that's a really really, really
31:12
Speaker 4: critical and crucial part about it, right, how can we
31:17
Speaker 4: do better? Because oftentimes, you know, when we think about
31:22
Speaker 4: how things are perpetuated, we don't ask.
31:25
Speaker 1: We we ask I.
31:27
Speaker 4: And so this idea of collectivism, right, collective, how do we?
31:32
Speaker 4: I think is really really important. So I wanted to
31:35
Speaker 4: honor it and acknowledge it. Now to think about your
31:37
Speaker 4: question about the three to four generations? I think it
31:42
Speaker 4: also and I hate this answer, but it really I
31:45
Speaker 4: think it depends, like, for example, in the in the
31:50
Speaker 4: Jewish community, this idea of never forget, and the word
31:55
Speaker 4: never is a critical part of that.
31:57
Speaker 1: Right, we must never forget.
32:00
Speaker 4: At and never you know, let similar atrocities occur again.
32:05
Speaker 4: And so as we are in the third generation.
32:10
Speaker 1: Now, it really sort of makes me.
32:12
Speaker 4: Think about how will I communicate these things to my children,
32:18
Speaker 4: and how will these things can continue on and be honored,
32:23
Speaker 4: either in the resiliency or the intergenerational trauma components. So
32:28
Speaker 4: I don't know if it's hard. It's a hard and
32:30
Speaker 4: fast sort of easy answer, like a yes or no answer,
32:33
Speaker 4: But I think it also depends.
32:35
Speaker 1: On where we are at as a.
32:38
Speaker 4: Larger community, as a larger country, as a larger global community.
32:43
Speaker 4: You know, if reminders continue to manifest, so continued experiences
32:48
Speaker 4: of discrimination, of hate, of racism, of oppression, of marginalization,
32:52
Speaker 4: of poverty, of all of those things that we talked about,
32:54
Speaker 4: if those things continue to persist, I don't know if
32:58
Speaker 4: it's a yes or no answer in terms of it
33:01
Speaker 4: takes three or four generations right there.
33:05
Speaker 2: I had this idea a few years ago when I
33:08
Speaker 2: was really focusing on my relationship with food, and I said,
33:12
Speaker 2: it stops with me. I will not pass down any
33:16
Speaker 2: sort of unhealth in this realm to my future children.
33:21
Speaker 2: And I love the idea of trying our very best
33:26
Speaker 2: to heal as much as we can for the next generation.
33:29
Speaker 2: But it's not always possible. It takes lots of time.
33:33
Speaker 2: I've read some conflicting things about trauma affecting our DNA,
33:39
Speaker 2: does it actually change our genes?
33:41
Speaker 4: There has particularly been a few studies in Holocaust survivor
33:46
Speaker 4: offspring that have shown some changes in a specific stress
33:54
Speaker 4: related gene and specifically a gene that's associated with PTSD
33:59
Speaker 4: and depression. And so without getting into the weeds of
34:05
Speaker 4: what gene, what methylation, and what all of that, all
34:09
Speaker 4: of that stuffy, they have some studies have suggested that
34:14
Speaker 4: Holocaust trauma and or other types of cultural trauma and
34:18
Speaker 4: or generational trauma may shift the biology of descendants. Now,
34:24
Speaker 4: I want to be mindful too that there has been
34:26
Speaker 4: sort of a mixed bag on that research. But in
34:31
Speaker 4: some of the studies, the observations that have been made
34:36
Speaker 4: may suggest that the changes in parent and child may
34:41
Speaker 4: show that, you know, there are vulnerabilities and also resiliencies
34:46
Speaker 4: to being the descendant of a Holocaust survivor or of
34:51
Speaker 4: individuals who've experienced intense trauma.
34:54
Speaker 3: Now, you've been doing this work for a bit.
34:57
Speaker 2: What has surprised you the most about generational or intergenerational trauma?
35:02
Speaker 4: I think the biggest surprise came in confronting and thinking
35:07
Speaker 4: about my own experiences with it. And oftentimes, when I'm
35:12
Speaker 4: talking about intergenerational trauma, I'm talking about Holocaust trauma because
35:17
Speaker 4: that's a lot of the work that I've done, and
35:19
Speaker 4: in terms of my family, that's what we've talked about
35:22
Speaker 4: the most. A big part of what I don't talk
35:25
Speaker 4: about is other parts of intergenerational trauma that I have experienced.
35:30
Speaker 4: And I was actually adopted at birth, so I wasn't
35:35
Speaker 4: born Jewish, I wasn't born with those genetic pieces.
35:40
Speaker 1: I was born and adopted at birth.
35:43
Speaker 4: And my biological makeup, if that's how we're identifying it is.
35:48
Speaker 4: I'm half Caucasian and also half Native American and Mexican,
35:54
Speaker 4: and it's been such an interesting journey learning and building
35:59
Speaker 4: my own identity and thinking about how those parts of
36:04
Speaker 4: my identity mix and overlap, and the differences and the similarities.
36:10
Speaker 4: And I think oftentimes that is the experience of an
36:13
Speaker 4: adopted child, Right, How do I integrate all these things?
36:15
Speaker 1: There's too much.
36:15
Speaker 4: Information, But in thinking about how much I like deeply
36:20
Speaker 4: connect with my grandparents' experiences, to me is a really
36:24
Speaker 4: interesting piece and something that I think I wouldn't say
36:28
Speaker 4: surprises me, but It's just an interesting component that it's
36:32
Speaker 4: hard for me to not think about when when I
36:34
Speaker 4: talk about intergenerational trauma, or when I talk about intergenerational resilience,
36:39
Speaker 4: or that feels that feels important.
36:42
Speaker 3: To me, that feels very important.
36:44
Speaker 2: We can almost do a whole podcast and that.
36:47
Speaker 4: You know.
36:48
Speaker 2: I wasn't going to ask this, but your last reply,
36:52
Speaker 2: I think is imploring me too.
36:55
Speaker 3: Is there a spiritual aspect to this?
36:57
Speaker 4: In terms of my personal experience? I would say, so,
37:02
Speaker 4: what are your thoughts? Is there a spiritual part or
37:06
Speaker 4: aspect of it for you?
37:08
Speaker 2: I'm not sure I've thought about it enough to have
37:10
Speaker 2: a concrete answer, but my gut says yes.
37:14
Speaker 1: Yeah.
37:15
Speaker 2: You know, when I launched the podcast, the first episode
37:18
Speaker 2: was sort of like a conversation but an interview about
37:21
Speaker 2: me and the guy Peter Rosenberg who interviewed me, was like,
37:25
Speaker 2: why are.
37:26
Speaker 3: You obsessed with stories? And I gave my answer.
37:29
Speaker 2: My mom called me after and she was like, I
37:32
Speaker 2: don't think you fully understand why you're obsessed with stories.
37:35
Speaker 2: Part of it is that you came from a long
37:38
Speaker 2: story and I thought that was so wise. It really resonated. Yeah,
37:44
Speaker 2: and so you came from a very long story, both
37:48
Speaker 2: biologically and relationally, which is so fascinating, and to me,
37:54
Speaker 2: there has to be a spiritual component of that, especially
37:56
Speaker 2: if you feel so connected to your grandparents.
37:59
Speaker 4: And I think that's the component that really I think
38:02
Speaker 4: rings true as I even talk about it, because I
38:06
Speaker 4: always call my grandmother my first soulmate, and I'm like,
38:09
Speaker 4: she was my first soul me because like, the just
38:12
Speaker 4: statistical likelihood of finding her is just that's that's the
38:20
Speaker 4: part to me where I'm like, oh my god, there
38:21
Speaker 4: is no answer for that, and so it feels so
38:26
Speaker 4: spiritual and our connection was so spiritual. It's it's an
38:30
Speaker 4: interesting piece of that and so so often my family
38:34
Speaker 4: will say things about genes forgetting that I'm not genetically connected,
38:39
Speaker 4: which makes me happy.
38:39
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I feels like I've always.
38:41
Speaker 4: You know, been genetically connected, even though i'm but it's
38:44
Speaker 4: just an added and an interesting additional component of my
38:47
Speaker 4: story that feels so present but not present at the
38:51
Speaker 4: same time. And so I agree, I'm fascinated just like
38:55
Speaker 4: you by by stories.
38:57
Speaker 2: I love that this culminated with stories because it's just
39:01
Speaker 2: it's what makes the world go around. I think that's
39:04
Speaker 2: so cool. Doctor Wasserman. Where can everybody find you?
39:07
Speaker 4: So you can find me on Instagram Healing with Doctor
39:12
Speaker 4: Mellie and or on my website doctor Melle dot com.
39:16
Speaker 3: That's m E. L I. Yep, awesome.
39:19
Speaker 2: Okay, So I do a quick rapid fire at the
39:22
Speaker 2: end with everybody an advice or quote that has impacted
39:25
Speaker 2: you the most or changed the way you think about things.
39:28
Speaker 1: Easy answer here.
39:29
Speaker 4: My grandmother always used to say, life's not made to order,
39:33
Speaker 4: and not just feels so present, and not only this
39:37
Speaker 4: past year, but in every day of my life.
39:41
Speaker 3: I love that.
39:41
Speaker 2: I've never heard that a book that you think everybody
39:45
Speaker 2: should read.
39:46
Speaker 4: So you've been publicly shamed by John Ronson. He goes
39:49
Speaker 4: through the history of shaming and shame and.
39:53
Speaker 1: I think I read it in like five hours.
39:56
Speaker 3: Oh I need that one.
39:57
Speaker 2: It's a good one, like specifically with cancel culture. I'm
40:01
Speaker 2: fascinated by it.
40:02
Speaker 1: Pick it up, get it right now. Oh my gosh,
40:04
Speaker 1: thank you.
40:06
Speaker 2: Okay, I do a pretty smart question. We have a
40:08
Speaker 2: card deck. You pick a random card. Okay, what do
40:12
Speaker 2: you complain about more than anything else?
40:16
Speaker 1: The partner's gonna laugh so hard about this.
40:19
Speaker 4: My partner leaves the cupboards open all of the time,
40:25
Speaker 4: and it's like a running joke of like, every time
40:28
Speaker 4: I go into the kitchen, how many cupboards are left open?
40:32
Speaker 4: And gosh, bless's heart. But I definitely complain about that,
40:38
Speaker 4: probably the most.
40:39
Speaker 2: And finally, what is the smartest decision you've ever made?
40:43
Speaker 4: I think the smartest decision I've probably ever made is
40:46
Speaker 4: the decision to major in religious studies at UCSB, which
40:51
Speaker 4: was totally at random. And as I was applying to colleges,
40:55
Speaker 4: I was like, Oh, people probably don't major in this,
40:58
Speaker 4: so this will be like, you know, I'll get in
41:00
Speaker 4: on this and then I'll change my major when.
41:03
Speaker 1: I get there.
41:03
Speaker 4: And then I got there and I was so into
41:05
Speaker 4: it and it led me to this course that changed
41:09
Speaker 4: pretty much the course.
41:10
Speaker 1: Of my life.
41:13
Speaker 4: And it seemed like such a random decision that was
41:17
Speaker 4: so not random.
41:18
Speaker 1: Those are the best ones.
41:20
Speaker 3: Thank you so so much.
41:21
Speaker 1: Taking care the rest of the day.
41:23
Speaker 5: You too, all right, today's a good day.
41:40
Speaker 3: To have a good day. I'll see an