Latest / Radically Genuine / 187. Vaccine Safety Epidemiologist Exposes Truth Behind Vaccine Safety Trials
Transcript
- 00:00:00:07 - 00:00:03:04 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Ali Krug. Welcome to the Radically Genuine Podcast. 00:00:03:06 - 00:00:07:16 ALLISON KRUG Thank you so much for inviting me to be here in your studio. It's a pleasure and an honor. 00:00:07:18 - 00:00:16:06 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN It's, I'm so grateful that we had the opportunity to do this, but I'm more interested right now in you being a hockey mom. What? What brings you into town? 00:00:16:08 - 00:00:35:04 ALLISON KRUG Well, Mid-Atlantic showcase. So I have two sons, 20 and 17 now, and they've both been hockey players for a long time. The younger one is, exploring, you know, what his future looks like and. And what, what the path might be. And you may or may not know. Hockey is a complicated path. So he's, it's juniors. 00:00:35:04 - 00:00:55:07 ALLISON KRUG And then if you want to play in college. So there's this time between 16 and 20 where they want the players to continue getting better and, you know, beefing up and getting a lot of size on them, a lot of maturity. So you don't go straight from high school to college if you want to play college hockey. So we're exploring this path and allowing him to kind of see what's out there, see if he he wants to go that route or what he really wants. 00:00:55:07 - 00:01:00:14 ALLISON KRUG So, it's interesting and it's, as you know, a very intense sport, great for spectators. 00:01:00:16 - 00:01:18:00 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN It is it's so fast and so exciting. And I'm, I'm a fliers fan, and I'm so like, I'm a casual hockey fan. If the fliers are in the playoffs, I'm watching the NHL playoffs. But if they're not in the playoffs or it's been five years, they haven't been in the playoffs in a rebuilding. You know, I kind of take a step back from it. 00:01:18:02 - 00:01:34:20 ALLISON KRUG While the playoffs are fascinating, I don't have a favorite team, but it's just incredible what can happen. And you as a psychology I'm sure are fascinated by the emotion of the game and how things can change on a dime. Yes, because like the stars, I think got five goals in the third period to come back against the Oilers. 00:01:34:21 - 00:01:54:06 ALLISON KRUG I if I got this wrong, the fans will, you know, be sure to comment. But that's just astounding. Five goals in a game is a lot. Momentum is man and it's everyone coming together. It's everyone giving 110%. And what starts that I've noticed in the thousands of hours of watching hockey is one person in the corner, you know? 00:01:54:06 - 00:02:02:18 ALLISON KRUG Yeah, one person doing that little bit extra to cause a turnover. Yeah. Which then, you know, feeds the whole game. But it's such an emotional game. 00:02:02:20 - 00:02:07:08 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN My son, who's going to be a Division one wrestler, he's entering college this this summer. 00:02:07:08 - 00:02:08:13 ALLISON KRUG Congrats to him and to you. 00:02:08:13 - 00:02:33:09 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Yeah. We've gone through that entire path. But what it's like what is it like for you as a, as a parent watching your son play such a physical sport like hockey. I because wrestling's unique because it's like five, six minutes, you're out on the mat and it's intense for that period of time. And it's this elevated kind of anxiety that you're experiencing as a parent because your kid's like in a fight. 00:02:33:11 - 00:02:36:14 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN But what about hockey? What's it like for you watching your sons play now? 00:02:36:14 - 00:02:52:20 ALLISON KRUG It's such a great question. And I was thinking about that last night. I'm like, you know, your jaw is kind of clenched. I film all the game. So the coaches have that footage too. So on the one hand, I'm filming it and watching it sort of at a distance and watching the whole team. On the other hand, I am looking at my son and watching this and, you know, I think you would agree. 00:02:52:20 - 00:03:17:20 ALLISON KRUG We we allow our children to if we're parenting well, we allow our children to make decisions for themselves and determine how much distress they're going to put themselves through. And, it is really tough, especially at the, I would say the A in the double A level, because there's a lot of what I call gunnery. There's a lot of, you know, just ridiculous stuff that has nothing to do with skill once you get into a NHL. 00:03:17:20 - 00:03:37:21 ALLISON KRUG We went to a combine in northern new Jersey that's an entirely different caliber of kid and style of hockey. There is no gunnery, no high hits to the head, no late hits, no dumb stuff. I know we can swear on this. Maybe we'll get to that. But, you know, there's just a totally different kind of hockey experience and that is a pure pleasure to watch. 00:03:37:23 - 00:03:53:09 ALLISON KRUG So I do have mixed feelings about it. My son also boxes. So that's a different thing entirely as well. And so a lot of great conversations around, you know, what do we like about this? Why do we like it? You know, how do you keep yourself safe? I think boxing has added a lot to his hockey game. 00:03:53:11 - 00:04:08:15 ALLISON KRUG A lot of head on, a swivel, a lot of reflexes, fairness, just a lot of body intuition, which I could see. He plays forward in defense. I could see that last night like he's a real menace on D because he plays the body. He knows where the body is going to go. He's not distracted by the stick in the puck. 00:04:08:17 - 00:04:28:12 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Yeah, I mean, there's so much, intricate aspects about, performance in in something as fast as hockey or, you know, in other sports that we don't even really get into about how to train. And I always wonder if we're training our athletes in the way that we could. Which brings me into like later questions I think I want to have about like, intuition and so forth. 00:04:28:14 - 00:04:56:22 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN But I want to stick on the path here about safety and being a mother. I was aware of your work during Covid. You you were kind of thrusted into the spotlight in different ways. I mean, vaccines have become one of the most polarizing, if not the most polarizing subject in public health for valid reasons. And I was fascinated to learn about your background and working with Merck's vaccine division. 00:04:56:22 - 00:05:07:00 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN So how does someone go from working for Merck in the vaccine division to kind of being one of the most sophisticated? I think critics, you know, during Covid and where you are now in your career. 00:05:07:02 - 00:05:30:14 ALLISON KRUG That's a that's an excellent question. And I would just calibrate that a little bit. I wouldn't say I'm a sophisticated critic. There are so many people out there who have done an incredible job, sticking their necks out. And you know, I've had the privilege of working with them. As you pointed out, I'm a mom, and, my research has been unfunded, which might be one of the reasons why I could do my research at all during the pandemic. 00:05:30:16 - 00:05:48:07 ALLISON KRUG Other people that I've worked with, other institutions said you cannot look at this. And so they had to drop off our paper. But I was able to continue forward. So you asked, how does a person get there? A person gets there by thinking critically. A person gets there by going, you know, I have two sons, ages 12 and 15 at the time. 00:05:48:09 - 00:06:11:23 ALLISON KRUG Does this make sense for them? Because the risk of Covid was literally a hockey stick shape. You know, like, I know you have viewers, right? So they can imagine a hockey stick. And so, you know, there was some risk for 0 to 4 year olds. The CDC saw that. And if you really dig down layer by layer into the risk for 0 to 4 year olds, it's actually really, if you look closely, 0 to 6 month olds, when I asked clinicians, okay, who's that? 00:06:12:00 - 00:06:33:06 ALLISON KRUG It's premature infants. You know, they're really high risk for everything. Any respiratory infections I'm like, okay, that makes sense. Well who's down here at the heel of the stick? Those are my sons 12 to 15 year olds right now. I'm like, really? If you get down there, you don't have to have very much risk on the vaccine side to flip the ratio from benefit to harm, net benefit to harms. 00:06:33:06 - 00:06:59:10 ALLISON KRUG I'm like, I got to look at the heel there. I got to look at that. If you imagine flipping a hockey stick over right, the heel is now up and you've got risk shaped like this. Right. So that's the vaccine risk. That's the myocarditis risk in that, you know, roughly 12 to 25 year olds. So I've been a little bit fascinated by, you know, can we get into a situation where we have net harm and these one size fits all policies basically ensure we're going to cause harm? 00:06:59:12 - 00:07:33:13 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN There's a large part of my community, those who follow my podcast that have been institutionally harmed, not provided informed consent, often entered into the mental health system as an example and placed on at least one or multiple psychiatric drugs, and then exhibited almost chronic health and mental health problems as a result of doing it. So there's a vaccine hesitancy, there's a distrust of authority, of a lot of people who not only follow my work, but I feel like it's growing throughout our country. 00:07:33:15 - 00:08:09:23 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN If you're willing, I'd like to ask some basic questions because I myself am confused about the vaccine debate, and I'm sure a lot of other people are even about just basic understandings about what a vaccine is and what a vaccine isn't. But I want to start with RFK Jr. You know, he's been vocal about calling out for proper safety science in vaccine development, specifically his argument that we've never done true placebo controlled trials comparing vaccinated versus unvaccinated populations. 00:08:10:00 - 00:08:25:12 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN So when you look at his claims about the fundamental flaws in vaccine safety, where do you think he's right? Where do you think he's gone too far? And what would rigorous vaccine safety a valuation look like? 00:08:25:14 - 00:08:47:06 ALLISON KRUG Yeah, it's a good question. I've been following his work for some time, and I can't say I am an expert on his viewpoints. I do think that, like many critics, he can, overstate potentially the harms. But I think the fundamental question here is, do we have good evidence for vaccine safety? And I think he's correct that we do not. 00:08:47:08 - 00:09:05:23 ALLISON KRUG It was shocking to me, having worked for Merck vaccine division, years ago, that we actually really don't have true placebo controlled trials. What we have is randomized controlled trials. Would sound that sounds good on the surface, right? That's what we want is RCTs the gold standard. But what we don't have is people who have a true placebo. 00:09:05:23 - 00:09:34:03 ALLISON KRUG They're not on a saline placebo, like take the HPV vaccine, for instance, that people got an adjuvant. The adjuvant is an additive into the vaccine, which causes the immune system to pay attention. Like, hey, there's something over here you need to look at. The adjuvant is what is oftentimes causing the adverse reaction. So you've got adjuvant right. And antigen in a vaccine antigen is the virus particles that we're saying hey body go make antibodies to this thing. 00:09:34:09 - 00:09:54:17 ALLISON KRUG So you've got both things in the vaccine. So what they trying to do. They're trying to rationalize this by saying well we need to look at the active ingredient, which is the antigen. Right. So we look at the antigen plus the adjuvant on one side. And then we look at the adjuvant on the other side. Well if the adjuvant is causing issues it's probably not just the antigen right. 00:09:54:17 - 00:10:16:19 ALLISON KRUG It's also the adjuvant which is you know in some cases aluminum. So we don't really have a true placebo at all. And this became really clear to me when we looked at, the HPV vaccine, which I took a deep dive into for about six months to really understand it, because that is the one that is widely considered to be the most effective anti-cancer vaccine there is. 00:10:16:21 - 00:10:41:18 ALLISON KRUG I figured, well, why not go after the hardest one to debunk? Why not start there? Right? And I really wasn't happy with what I saw. And there are a number of very good researchers who have their base of experience in, you know, far more expert than me in evidence analysis, evidence appraisal. This is a Cochrane group who are looking at this saying, you know, there's actually fundamental flaws with the clinical trials that got this approved in the first place. 00:10:41:20 - 00:10:58:03 ALLISON KRUG Well, they're right, there were and you can your readers can, can look probably in our show notes and also look at the, the debate I did with, a pediatrician on Megan Kelly. If they want more detail on this, it's probably beyond the scope of this conversation, because I feel like I already went down a rabbit hole. 00:10:58:03 - 00:11:18:01 ALLISON KRUG But, suffice to say, we really don't have good evidence if that is the gold, you know, standard vaccine that we think everyone should get two doses before 15 if you, you know, start to get it after 15 three doses. The who doesn't even agree with that? Who says one is plenty? Well they don't. I should rephrase, they say one maybe. 00:11:18:01 - 00:11:38:18 ALLISON KRUG Okay, but looking at the evidence, one is sufficient in my mind, or probably none. But your question is, do we have good evidence? And where is he? Right. Where has he gone? Too far. And what should we do going forward? What is good evidence? Good evidence and in my mind is having randomized controlled trials with true placebos. 00:11:38:20 - 00:11:59:05 ALLISON KRUG Some people would say that's not ethical because how could you deny a child a vaccine? I actually think there's ways around this. I'm not a methodologies, but there are plenty of great methodologies out there with training and epidemiology and study methods. And you could do, you know, for instance, a rollover or, sorry, a crossover trial, you could have, you know, the two randomized arms go forward where one doesn't get the vaccine. 00:11:59:05 - 00:12:15:10 ALLISON KRUG Then you cross them over and that arm does then get the vaccine later. So eventually they're going to get the vaccine. It's not like you're going to deny a child protection. And then you look at the adverse events in both of those and you see if it, if it looks like there might be a harm. 00:12:15:12 - 00:12:27:21 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Yeah. Never really understood that viewpoint. Don't we have to determine that a product is safe first before we say there's some ethical dilemma that we're not giving them? Something like the whole purpose of the trial is to determine it's safety and efficacy. 00:12:27:23 - 00:12:29:15 ALLISON KRUG Right? Right. 00:12:29:17 - 00:12:39:18 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN So the question is, I know everyone's asking, why wouldn't there be a true placebo controlled trial? It just seems like that's the first step. Why not? 00:12:39:20 - 00:13:11:17 ALLISON KRUG Why not? Because we don't want the answers, right? I think that we would find there was a very small, and of 559, I believe, for the HPV trial, which actually did have a true placebo. And they found that there was a very substantial, you know, clinic or statistically significant risk associated with the vaccine when we actually did look at the data for the, the true placebo, which was the documents were released in a court battle over the HPV vaccine. 00:13:11:17 - 00:13:50:19 ALLISON KRUG And Merck is back in court right now. So I think that we know the answer. I think that there is risk, there are harms associated with vaccines. And that's something that's very difficult to talk about, because if you do acknowledge that, then you're considered an anti-vaxxer. Which, as you know, if you look through kind of my background during the pandemic, you know, you get, accused of being a eugenicist as well, if you're at all, vaccine hesitant or vaccine skeptical, or want to require good evidence or we're really, I think, at a tipping point, in your profession and in mine, where I think the public is demanding much better evidence and 00:13:50:19 - 00:14:12:05 ALLISON KRUG they should, people have been sold a lot of stories. And I love how you talk about looking externally for answers, looking externally for protection. And I think this applies to vaccines, too. When I started digging into mucosal immunity and what our body actually can do to protect ourselves, I was really surprised that I had not, you know, as a biology major. 00:14:12:05 - 00:14:31:01 ALLISON KRUG And then, masters of Public Health really not dug into that as far as immune protection. And then the whole debate about masks came out. That really became very interesting to think about. Well, what is the mask doing on top of, you know, what my body's mucosal immunity is already doing to protect me against every single thing that I breathe or eat or drink. 00:14:31:03 - 00:14:50:20 ALLISON KRUG You know, it's the lining of the, the oral cavity all the way through. So, I mean, I could talk about that later, but we have incredible defense mechanisms built into our biology. Why do we distrust that so much? Why do we think we need to look externally to other things? And I should confess here that for the first year, I did not take the flu shot. 00:14:50:22 - 00:15:13:03 ALLISON KRUG Last year, and I decided to just do an end of one, you know, experiment with myself to see if I could psychologically handle not getting the flu shot. And I decided, well, you know what? I believe that my body is resilient. I believe that it knows how to handle viruses, and I am going to do all of the appropriate things to take care of myself. 00:15:13:03 - 00:15:30:16 ALLISON KRUG I'm going to exercise. I'm going to drink water. You know, I'm going to get in the prebiotics, the probiotics, everything. I'm going to do it. All right. I'm already pretty healthy. Just see what happens. I have to tell you, Roger, I was healthy all season, all hockey season. And that's going in and out of rinks, in and out of hotels. 00:15:30:21 - 00:15:46:07 ALLISON KRUG I was like, I wonder how long this is going to last. Knock on wood, I'm still healthy. I hate to even say this. I've never said this publicly before. As an epidemiologist, it's going to get me a lot of hate for saying I decided not to get the flu shot, and that was healthier because other things could have gone into that. 00:15:46:07 - 00:16:01:06 ALLISON KRUG I did gargle salt water as well the moment I felt something coming on. So I mean, I didn't I didn't completely, you know, stick with my usual regimen and only change one variable, I change two. So maybe good old folk medicine has, has some benefits too. 00:16:01:08 - 00:16:22:07 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Well, belief is powerful, isn't it? Yeah. I don't think we talk about that enough. I certainly did my deep dive into placebo work, and it's really powerful. So true. And it's not just to determine if the drug is efficacious. Like, there's something there about the whole aspect of placebo, placebo and nocebo, which I think is an important discussion point for us. 00:16:22:09 - 00:16:48:20 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN But you brought up some terms that I think is really important because millennial parents, you know, these MHA parents, they're trying to determine, do I provide my kids the recommended vaccines that my doctor is pushing? And there's so many unanswered questions. So first of all, I don't know if everyone even knows what an adjuvant is and can. 00:16:48:21 - 00:16:50:20 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN So can we start and define what that is. 00:16:50:20 - 00:17:10:18 ALLISON KRUG Yeah. So an adjuvant is something that we add to vaccines to get the body to pay attention. We're injecting something into. Right. The, into the skin. And we need to get enough of a reaction there for the immune system to pay attention and build antibodies. So the adjuvant is just, I don't know, think of it as an agitator. 00:17:10:20 - 00:17:31:04 ALLISON KRUG It agitates a response to it. So and there's a number of different adjuvants. But I mean, your question is, is a big one and I can't give clinical advice. Right? I know you already know that. But we could get to just a few kind of rules of thumb that I tend to go by personally, to help make these decisions. 00:17:31:06 - 00:17:55:06 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Okay, so one of the things that I know is being brought up because people have questions like they talk about vaccines, almost like it's a religion that you can in no way, like challenge the faithfulness of them. They're the greatest medical discovery, maybe in human history. I think that was even mentioned on that debate between you and, the pediatrician. 00:17:55:06 - 00:18:21:00 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN I forget her name, unfortunately. But check it out on on Megan Kelly's podcast, because that's what you always come back to. It's not really an open analysis of data, of risks, of benefits and say, hey, this this is the greatest discovery. And then there's fear, provocation. Okay. And so we're under this assumption that it's, it's you're getting you're getting the immunization. 00:18:21:00 - 00:18:47:02 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Immunization and it is creating a natural human, immune response. So we have this idea that it's very natural, right? It's very safe. It's your body's own natural react to being provided with the the virus and that just seems on its face value for all the way people. Let's. That's very simple, right. Like it's very we're exposed to something. 00:18:47:02 - 00:19:00:13 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN We build natural immunity to it and then we're safer. But there's these nuances here. There's this vaccine immunity versus natural immunity. And I don't think people distinguish what the difference is. What is the difference? 00:19:00:15 - 00:19:16:23 ALLISON KRUG I'm so glad you asked that question. We'll have to put a link to something that I wrote, which was horrendously difficult to get published. It was, basically a metaphor of hockey, a hockey rink, and the immune system, which really made a lot of sense to me. My husband was like, no one's going to publish that. No one like you don't put those two things together. 00:19:16:23 - 00:19:38:00 ALLISON KRUG But basically, the immune system has the mucosal immunity that I talked about before. And I get very excited about this because it's our first line of defense. So the immune system has the oral cavity all the way down through your intestines. And all the way back out is like lined with defenders. 70, 80% of your immune system is in your gut, in your intestines, because that's the first line of battle. 00:19:38:02 - 00:19:55:02 ALLISON KRUG And what your body does is recognize it. If something doesn't belong, it's looking for self and non-self all the time. This even gets to cancer. And I know you've had a few episodes on on that too. So looking for cells that are doing things they shouldn't be doing, looking for invaders that don't really belong and sorting it out and then creating antibodies. 00:19:55:02 - 00:20:14:10 ALLISON KRUG So, the body has incredible resilience so it can attack anything that doesn't seem to belong with nonspecific immunity. So it has built in defenses that go after anything. It doesn't need any training, which is the kind of cool thing to think about. So that's innate immunity. And then you have acquired immunity, which is, oh, I've seen that before. 00:20:14:10 - 00:20:35:17 ALLISON KRUG I'm going to go get that right. And so I like to think of, mucosal immunity as the neutral zone in a hockey game. Like that's that's where we're going for puck control. Right. That's like we have to be alert and awake there. And I think if if your listeners are interested in just taking a holistic approach to their health, recognize that that is doing something for the immune system, too. 00:20:35:19 - 00:20:56:24 ALLISON KRUG I mean, it's not like this kind of netherworld that we don't have any influence over. I mean, you have absolute influence over how well your body can function and protect you. And I think that's something that's lost. Like even something as simple as water allows your I mean, if you look on YouTube, there's a couple cool little videos of like, eosinophils swimming around in the blood stream. 00:20:57:01 - 00:21:15:03 ALLISON KRUG They you have to have enough water in your veins, in your blood for them to be able to swim. Otherwise it's too sticky. They can't go through traffic and go get the bad stuff. So, I mean, it's it's really fun to think about. And I would encourage parents who are, you know, they're really in the difficult spot. I get questions all the time, should I get this vaccine or that vaccine? 00:21:15:03 - 00:21:31:16 ALLISON KRUG I'm like, I don't really have the answers either. I mean, I have to do a risk benefit analysis on each one of these as well. But just for example, the meningitis vaccine is something that a lot of parents of high schoolers, you know, maybe, maybe you're having to think about. 00:21:31:18 - 00:21:54:10 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN It's so important because I have this I have this for discussion today because we're facing it right now. My son's going to Bucknell University, next weekend. Yeah. And we have refused that right now. And I noticed on the podcast with American Kelly and the pediatrician's name is Doctor Christian Walsh. Yeah. Is that you brought up some great evidence about why you did it. 00:21:54:10 - 00:22:06:15 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN You thought the risks outweighed the benefits for the HPV vaccine? Gardasil. But then you very quickly said, oh, well, when it comes to meningitis, I mean, that's a no brainer. Can you explain the differences? 00:22:06:15 - 00:22:22:04 ALLISON KRUG And I think it depends. My kid too. So I actually I actually said no to the meningitis vaccine for my 17 year old. They're pushing it at school. Come to the clinic, get it. You know, before senior year. I'm like, actually, that's meant for the highest risk for that is freshman year in college, when you're all crammed indoors and you're not paying attention to hygiene. 00:22:22:04 - 00:22:36:20 ALLISON KRUG And, you know, maybe you don't know where the clinic is and you don't know, like, what a serious illness is and when you should actually get help. So I think it depends on kid, too. So my older son, I was like, you know, it's going away. You know, he's he's very stoic. He is not going to go to the doctor. 00:22:36:20 - 00:22:52:02 ALLISON KRUG He may not know that a stiff neck and a fever means like, you know, you really need to get help, like, right now, or things could go off the rails quickly. So I thought the meningitis vaccine made sense for him. Younger son. I said, no, not right now. I mean, we're a year and a half maybe more away from college. 00:22:52:04 - 00:22:54:15 ALLISON KRUG So no, we don't need that right now. 00:22:54:17 - 00:23:20:23 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Okay. So when you're when your son, let's say your son is, pinnacle of health, you know, high level athlete, strong, healthy. And when it comes to, for cervical cancer, I think it kills around 4000 American women per year. I think that might have been something that you stated on Megan Kelly's podcast, but when you look at, meningitis, it like much affects much less. 00:23:21:00 - 00:23:50:10 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And when you take away. So here's that individual aspect of this. When you look around about data, I think you, you talk about like relative, risk analysis, to the actual person. So you want to look at the individual. It seems that like those who actually are going to contract that and die from that are ones who have comorbid health conditions, immune deficiency issues, nutrient deficiencies, very sick people are at greater risk and then skews the, the data. 00:23:50:10 - 00:24:03:15 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN So why assume the risk for somebody that's healthy? And it's actually mandated in the state of Pennsylvania to get that. Which brings up other legal and ethical questions. But your thoughts? 00:24:03:17 - 00:24:30:17 ALLISON KRUG Well, it's a it's a tough thing, right? Like risk analysis doesn't necessarily predict every tragedy. There are healthy kids, perfectly healthy kids who do get very, very sick. So not not everything can be, you know, put to, middle school math and determined what makes the most sense. I mean, I know you've talked about kind of a spiritual aspect to all of this, to you make the best decision that you can as a parent, as a human, based on risk analysis. 00:24:30:19 - 00:24:44:05 ALLISON KRUG And then you decide, am I going to take some small risk of the vaccine? It's going to be a small risk. We don't know what it is versus a risk of, you know, being ill, far away from home, maybe not knowing about it. We've got to decide what our risk tolerances are. 00:24:44:10 - 00:24:45:19 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Which is also a small risk. 00:24:45:22 - 00:24:48:12 ALLISON KRUG Yeah it is. It's a very small risk. And we don't really like. 00:24:48:17 - 00:24:51:06 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Versus the risk of also the harms of taking the vaccine. 00:24:51:06 - 00:25:14:15 ALLISON KRUG Right. It's it's a really impossible conundrum to be put into. And I know people who are really paralyzed by making these decisions because they're really feels like no right decision. And it's a really awful situation to put people in. And I think something that RFK could do, is help us with the evidence, because right now we don't have good evidence to allow parents to really understand the relative risks. 00:25:14:15 - 00:25:35:09 ALLISON KRUG And we can get there. We can do that. We actually have a preprint, that right now is looking at 18 to 25 year old males related to Moderna's, you know, Covid vaccine and forcing ourselves to use the evidence that was available at the time to the FDA when they went through their licensing in January 2022. So, no, like Monday morning quarterbacking, you know, now we have all this evidence. 00:25:35:09 - 00:26:10:18 ALLISON KRUG Now, we went back and we looked at what was actually available then. And just to bottom line it for you, we found net harm on a population basis for the Covid vaccine, but we also took the time to drill down into specific risk factors like obesity, which unfortunately is a risk that's pretty prevalent in our population. So, you know, you and I were both just talking about athletes, you know, having a very robust metabolism and having a lot of muscle, I think was not good for the Covid vaccine because they're going to metabolize that mRNA vaccine and have the potential for myocarditis, which was a greater likelihood for the young, healthy male than a Covid 00:26:10:18 - 00:26:38:19 ALLISON KRUG hospitalization. So we really need RFC to push very good risk benefit analyzes, which are not hard to do. This is, again, middle school math. It's fractions. It's just a lot of fractions put together. And a lot of compounding fractions. And a good model. But it's really not that hard to do. If I can run a spreadsheet and take a crack at the first level of it, and then work with a team of, you know, six amazing people, mathematicians and immunologists and, you know, it's it's really quite doable. 00:26:38:19 - 00:26:42:16 ALLISON KRUG We're all unfunded and spent six months looking at those. So. 00:26:42:18 - 00:27:11:06 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Well, the resistance is telling, isn't it? Like you're trying to you're trying to look for good data and really caring about gold standard science. And then you get this strong resistance from this large apparatus that includes the media, the pharmaceutical industry funding it clearly, and then your set of politicians, it's really, really telling about the power that these, these companies really do have over our entire way of life. 00:27:11:08 - 00:27:33:12 ALLISON KRUG Yeah. And the FDA, too, you probably know, Krauss and Gruber resigned over the vaccine decisions and the push to, you know, to move them through. So what really frustrates me is like, the FDA has a ton of resources. The pharmaceutical companies have plenty of money. If six of us unfunded can do this, I mean, imagine what's possible for all vaccine decisions if we were to actually invest in that. 00:27:33:14 - 00:27:40:20 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN So I did find that debate that you had with Kristen was like, absolutely fascinating on a purely psychological level. 00:27:40:22 - 00:27:42:22 ALLISON KRUG Oh, no. 00:27:42:24 - 00:28:04:14 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN First of all, I thought you did. You did great. What I, what I respected about what you did is you are you're much more comfortable saying, I don't know, you're much more comfortable saying, I'm not there yet. You're much more comfortable saying there's risks, and these risks can outweigh any benefits without turning to any particular fear provocation. 00:28:04:16 - 00:28:26:24 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN My concern with the debate in general and Doctor Kristen Walsh is I just felt like she was inherently conflicted. When you are making that recommendation to children, when you're making that recommendation to all your patients, this is your reputation. This is everything you were taught to believe. And I thought you brought up a really good questions that weren't answered. 00:28:26:24 - 00:28:49:02 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN They weren't addressed in the debate. They were so valid questions. And her questions that I want answered as a parent. And I know that other people want to have answer as a parent. The adjuvant was it was an important piece. So when there is a when there was the question about the impact of aluminum being a neurotoxin. Right. 00:28:49:04 - 00:29:14:03 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And she like essentially created this false equivalence fallacy, she said, well, you're exposed to you're exposed to aluminum all the time. It's in your deodorant, for example, or in our food sources. But it didn't answer the question, like, is there a difference between when you're injecting it into your body and it's meant to break the blood brain barrier there? 00:29:14:04 - 00:29:42:19 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And then what are the implications to this? Because what is the greater question here is we have this chronic disease epidemic. What are some of the root causes of this? There are large questions that we need to have answered. They're not simple, but we have to ask the difficult questions. Are these adjuvants that they're creating potentially impacting our immune system long term, that is responsible for the spike in autoimmune conditions, cancers and a number of other things? 00:29:42:21 - 00:30:03:16 ALLISON KRUG I think it's possible, and I think that if you're not willing to say it's possible, then you're not going to be able to, in an unbiased fashion, pursue the research that would answer those questions. And that's what really bothers me about the state of science right now is the lack of appreciation that the spirit of the question, which is something that Jordan Peterson talks about, is fundamental to the quality of research. 00:30:03:18 - 00:30:29:23 ALLISON KRUG So the spirit of the question is, what is my particular bias? What? And we have to preregister that. I think one of the things I would love to see happen with NIH studies, and I've been trying to promote this a little bit in my small circles, is let's preregister the biases of the people on the team, and then let's actually assemble a research team that is comprised of various biases across the spectrum so that we actually disagree. 00:30:29:23 - 00:31:01:23 ALLISON KRUG And this is true in my, my little lab. We actually disagree on some things. We're looking into the question that you're raising around, you know, autism and vaccines. And I have a lot of open questions. Other people on my team are pretty certain that there's a link. I think it's important to have teams where that natural balance is in place, because otherwise we bias the, you know, the scope of our inclusion criteria, our exclusion criteria, which studies we even include how we construct the models, everything downstream of the question is influenced by the question. 00:31:02:00 - 00:31:20:22 ALLISON KRUG So I think we need to start there, like upstream of the question who's on the team? And I'm just not seeing that done. I would love to have a pre-registration of the biases or, you know, a proactive selection of people to be on a team based on their known biases, based on their publication record. I think that would be pretty cool. 00:31:20:24 - 00:31:34:04 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN So with what you know right now, now, I'll admit, all of my kids followed the vaccine schedule I didn't awaken to until later. I know you mentioned that. Well, let's say you had young kids right now. How would you approach it? 00:31:34:06 - 00:31:56:07 ALLISON KRUG Good question. I've been thinking about that because things have changed. You know, we have teenagers. Things have changed. I think that, kind of my rule of thumb is it's been found, Christine, Steve Albon, who's a Danish researcher, believes that there are nonspecific indirect effects of vaccines, which I would think makes sense. They may have good effects and bad effects. 00:31:56:07 - 00:32:17:10 ALLISON KRUG Right. Like you've alluded to, with, with all of the autoimmune conditions and things going on. So, live vaccines, if they have nonspecific, nonspecific helpful effects, then that might be something to consider. Like the MMR vaccine, measles is also a pretty nasty disease. So I might start there. I might see if I could get comfortable with the MMR vaccine. 00:32:17:14 - 00:32:42:12 ALLISON KRUG Maybe I would split it up. You know, maybe I wouldn't do all three. As a so that one is made by Merck. So me being a prior Merck employee and really believing that the company is a good company, coming 20 years later, saying that is is a pretty, interesting example of the mindset shift that is necessary to contemplate what really does make sense for our kids, because I wouldn't have said that 20 years ago. 00:32:42:12 - 00:32:57:09 ALLISON KRUG I was bought into, you know, this is a great company. This is, you know, tons of research went into this. The vaccine pipeline is not very profitable. You know, the pill architecture for pharmaceutical companies. It's much better because you have pill, pill, pill people you know the rest of your life. 00:32:57:09 - 00:32:58:11 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN But could they be related? 00:32:58:13 - 00:33:18:09 ALLISON KRUG I do think they're related. I just I do think that there's more to this than I was aware of 20 years ago. And I do think that, that I would probably start there and just see what I felt comfortable with there. And then from there forward, just look at the risk of hepatitis B is one I would probably not do at birth these days. 00:33:18:11 - 00:33:38:20 ALLISON KRUG But like I said, I get questions all the time and I just don't feel like the like you said, I feel like I don't really know, I would if I were a parent, I would think about, can we start here? I would think about trying to avoid a C-section, if at all possible. Yeah. We are really doing quite a few of those, and they're elective. 00:33:38:22 - 00:34:03:20 ALLISON KRUG The microbiome of the child is influenced by delivery, method. And so if the child is coming out of the mother's vagina, they're introduced to that microbiome influence. Whereas if they are being surgically removed, they're exposed to a hospital microbiome initially. And that is the research says that is, an influence on downstream, you know, autoimmune effects. So I would start there. 00:34:03:20 - 00:34:31:04 ALLISON KRUG I'd also think about breastfeeding. I would do everything it took to make that happen. And I had a lot of difficulties, a lot. But I knew that that was the best possible thing for my son. I didn't even get a, epidural with my first son, who was 9 pounds, eight ounces. And I'm not a big person, so I was really trying my best as a parent to really set him up for, you know, the most natural, you know, entry into the world that I could, I don't know, I don't know the science on epidurals or not. 00:34:31:06 - 00:34:52:20 ALLISON KRUG The first one almost broke me. I did get an epidural for the second one, who was over 10 pounds. So I would really if if I were a millennial parent, I would really think about my own health and preconception health. Before I even really got too overly concerned about the vaccines, because you can do a lot to set up the health of your child. 00:34:52:22 - 00:35:17:15 ALLISON KRUG Pre-conception I actually, helped author, or edit a book on that preconception health. So, Amy Ogle and Lisa Marzullo wrote a 500 page book on this very topic, you know, 20 years ago. And it might be worth revisiting. You know, some of those things that are may seem like ancient times now, but, I think really provide a parent with a much broader view than just a vaccine or not. 00:35:17:16 - 00:35:20:12 ALLISON KRUG It's actually so much more than that. 00:35:20:14 - 00:35:26:01 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Yeah, it brings up greater philosophical questions about interfering with nature. 00:35:26:03 - 00:35:26:12 ALLISON KRUG Right. 00:35:26:17 - 00:35:53:04 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And we have this assumption that we've made these major advances medically that have enhanced our, our health. And in some respects, I mean, if we have a nuanced discussion, we're really good at prolonging life. We're really good at emergency medicine there. I think there are times that there are certain pharmaceuticals, which are chemical compounds made in a factory factory which can extend life, can, decrease suffering. 00:35:53:04 - 00:36:25:07 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And so I don't want to deny all that. But when it comes from a like a public health perspective, our individual well-being, from mental health to physical health, I think there's no debate that that is deteriorating dramatically and has so at a rapid pace over the last 30, 40 or 50 years. So the question is, and I think this is a greater question about health, or what are the unseen, unforeseen consequences of interfering with things so natural that has evolved over potentially millions of years? 00:36:25:09 - 00:36:48:13 ALLISON KRUG I completely agree with you. I am coming to that conclusion too. And I don't know if that, I think you've talked about the fear culture a lot, and I think the pandemic really, really hurt, young people as far as, you know, trust in resiliency and, and trust in even something beyond themselves. Fear culture really affected the high schoolers. 00:36:48:13 - 00:37:13:09 ALLISON KRUG I was invited to my son's high school to speak about public health, to a group of young health, you know, careers, individuals think about health careers. And we were masked at the time. And I remember, talking to them about epidemiology and teaching them a little bit about mucosal immunity. And after the presentation, they actually came up to talk to me like they were, you know, risking missing the bus home to come talk to me afterwards. 00:37:13:09 - 00:37:35:10 ALLISON KRUG And I will never forget their eyes, you know, peering out over their masks brimmed with tears of hope because they had heard a message of hope about their body's own resiliency. And that image has stuck with me because I really think for, you know, young kids, I mean, very young kids, parents think about parents protecting toddlers and that very formative time of their life. 00:37:35:10 - 00:38:14:16 ALLISON KRUG Think about parents having young kids during the pandemic, not touching things. Stay inside, you know, don't get too close. Like, let's like imagine what that does to a young person growing up in that environment. Think about high schoolers, you know, masked up, not confident in their body's ability to handle a virus. And then you think about, I mean, generations of kids, if we think about each age group that went through that four years of panic and distrust of their own bodies, I really think that it had set us up for a major overhaul in our psyche, because fear is driving everything, everything. 00:38:14:18 - 00:38:36:05 ALLISON KRUG And that sets up right. Stress, all kinds of downstream systemic inflammation like everyone's on a total cortisol. Not everyone. There are a lot of people who aren't, but a substantial proportion of the population that was, affected by public health messaging is now in a state of persistent, like, near panic. And that's just not a healthy way to live. 00:38:36:07 - 00:39:01:00 ALLISON KRUG So how are we going to unwind that? I think we have a lot of work to do to unwind that, especially if those kids who are paying attention, doing well in school, following the rules you've talked about, this tend to also be the ones going into academia, tend to be the ones going into public policy decision making. You know, we've got an army of people who are fear driven versus making decisions out of values and conscious choice. 00:39:01:02 - 00:39:25:18 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN I find myself in a lot of conversations with alternative health practitioners and in some who've kind of left the system, maybe they've been trained as a medical doctor and they've kind of just abandoned the system often because they had to maybe face their own health crises or of someone close that they loved. I just got off a podcast with Doctor Senior McCullough, which is you know, I really encourage everyone to to listen to that because we got into fascinating discussions. 00:39:25:20 - 00:39:53:24 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN But there's a similar theme. In response to the question about the root cause of our chronic health epidemic and a disease that is just so much more frequent now than at any other time in my lifetime. And it's discussing the role of fear in our own health. And when I look at our current paradigm, everything about our current medical system is about it's almost militaristic in a lot of ways. 00:39:54:01 - 00:40:21:20 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN These invaders, they're fighting us. It's like we're in a war against nature. And that creates such a fear based consciousness in everything that we do and how we approach our health when it comes from a state of fear in itself, aren't we just then ensuring that, we're going to be chronically ill in some way? We're going to be out of balance as, as the, as to speak two areas like there's the the fear based consciousness consciousness. 00:40:21:20 - 00:40:25:11 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And then there's our disconnection from nature and each other. 00:40:25:11 - 00:40:39:02 ALLISON KRUG Yeah. So true. I mean, you're reminded me of a time last year when I was running my little experiment without the flu shot, and I was like, walking into a crowded lobby. And I'm like, how are you going to do this, Allie? What mindset are you going to have as you pull open that door and go into the crowded lobby? 00:40:39:02 - 00:40:53:10 ALLISON KRUG Are you going to have a mindset of, oh my God, I'm breathing all this air? You know what's in all this air? I hear people coughing, you know, what are you going to do? I'm a sensitive person. I hear everything in the air, like active imagination. Lots of vivid dreams. I'm one of those people, right? Who's, like, always a little amped. 00:40:53:12 - 00:41:11:09 ALLISON KRUG Well, you know what? You have choices. You can go in here and you can be like, oh, this is great. This is the gym for my immune system. I'm really glad I bring it, you know, like bring it on. My body is actually meant for this. It means so much how we approach it. I mean, 30 to 40% of the effect of any medication SSRI is included, right? 00:41:11:09 - 00:41:40:15 ALLISON KRUG Our placebo effect also just in the relationship with your, mental health practitioner with like your psychologist. Right. It's the rapport between the people. That right is so predictive of success. And further the psychologist confidence in whatever tool they're using. Right. Because that projects confidence and it gives the client hope. So. So this so much of this is beyond biology right. 00:41:40:17 - 00:41:49:23 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Yeah. Let's talk about energy, spirituality, things that are maybe outside of our five senses. Are you aware of the bio field? 00:41:50:00 - 00:41:53:12 ALLISON KRUG Not specifically, but I probably will be if you explain it. 00:41:53:14 - 00:42:29:11 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Yeah. Let me find a definition because it actually the NIH has a definition for the bio fields. So the term bio field was proposed in 1992 by an ad hoc committee of camp practitioners and researchers conveyed by the newly established office of Alternative Medicine at the US National Institute of Health. So here is the official current NIH definition a massless field, not necessarily electromagnetic, that surrounds and permeates living bodies and affects the body. 00:42:29:13 - 00:42:56:17 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Greater context here is that we emit we are energetic beings, and we are emitting an energetic frequency that can actually be measured. And that field, which is probably still rudimentary in our understanding of what it is, interacts with potentially a greater field. Now we can say that that is nature. We can say that is God, and we can say that it's source consciousness. 00:42:56:19 - 00:43:25:07 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN But there's this other field that we're emitting and engaging with. It's such an unspoken aspect of health, well-being and purpose and meaning in our lives because we are forced into this, what I call an illusion of separation. Like that, we are just a where our selves were separate from everyone else. We're a series of body parts. If we can find out like a machine and fix that one body part, then it affects the entire whole. 00:43:25:09 - 00:43:43:09 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN We know that is just a horrible experiment with catastrophic consequences. So if we can say, like, all right, the impact of fear as an energetic experience puts our body out of balance and is implicated in disease. I don't know if you're aware of Zach Bush's work. 00:43:43:13 - 00:43:45:03 ALLISON KRUG Yes. Through you. 00:43:45:05 - 00:44:10:05 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Oh, okay. Yeah. He's he's fascinating. And it almost feels to me like when he when he's speaking he's channeling. Right. Like it's just information that's being channeled into him. I've had the experience. I talked about it in my last podcast. You it's yet to be released. It's the one that's going to be previous to this one. And that aspect of connecting to a greater feel has been spoken about and written about for centuries. 00:44:10:05 - 00:44:36:22 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN I mean, Albert Einstein, Nikola Tesla, a number of historical figures have talked about ideas just kind of being channeled within them. And so if you're if we're talking about the relationship that a health care practitioner has with their patient and we talk about confidence, one way to look at it is to say we're influencing belief, right. And hope and belief are really, really powerful. 00:44:36:24 - 00:44:44:22 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN But another way to look at it is from a perspective of a bio field, which we are in each other's bio field, you and I right now. 00:44:44:22 - 00:44:49:07 ALLISON KRUG I was really worried about that coming in. You're kind of we're both high energy people. 00:44:49:09 - 00:45:08:17 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN But we experienced that other person. You know, on a certain level, we talk about those vibes you get when you're with somebody. Do you feel at peace? Do you feel safe with that person or like intuitively, are you saying like, you know, I'm just going to get in and out of this situation or I'm going to avoid this situation? 00:45:08:19 - 00:45:20:13 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN So I know that's a lot there, but I'm like, interested in your perspective as an epidemiologist, but also, you know, where you're also going with your career, because I think that's fascinating too. Bio field energy. 00:45:20:14 - 00:45:40:19 ALLISON KRUG Oh, yeah, 100%, 100%. I mean, the one thing that I've always been described as is an energetic person, I have a certain energy about me. I didn't really know what that meant until I started paying attention to this a little bit. But I work with horses, and horses are excellent mares for us, and so we know about, you know, the heart putting out its own energy. 00:45:40:19 - 00:46:03:07 ALLISON KRUG Right. And that horses have, some of your listeners may have heard of this a very wide, you know, field of influence, but they also pick up on ours. We're putting out to and literally how I approach a horse will affect everything about my relationship with that horse without saying a word is just how much space I take up, how I walk, how I carry my shoulders when I'm riding them. 00:46:03:07 - 00:46:16:12 ALLISON KRUG They can feel where my head is, like we literally turn based on where I'm turning my head or what my when my shoulder is dropping. I was riding bareback the other day to get ready to talk to you, because I knew I needed to trust myself a little more, like, get rid of the saddle, we're going to ride bareback. 00:46:16:12 - 00:46:35:23 ALLISON KRUG We're going to just get down to spine to spine interaction. Right? And as I drop my shoulder, which I know I shouldn't as I'm making a turn to the right, the horse is falling in in his right shoulder. I pick my right shoulder up. Horse is able to carry himself. It is fast. So that's just physics. That's just weight distribution and balance. 00:46:36:00 - 00:46:54:13 ALLISON KRUG But it's also energetic connection. He knew I didn't have a saddle to support me. He loves to go strong. He loves to jump, loves to just really be a very. He was sweet and kind, knowing that I didn't have like he could sense that I was a little bit. I have had a back injuries to which we could go into in pain. 00:46:54:15 - 00:47:14:13 ALLISON KRUG Neuroscience of pain. How we deal with pain, what it teaches us on a at a cellular level about our relationship with our own neurons. But suffice to say, I rode once with still some back pain because I just really wanted to ride and he could sense that I was not moving the same as I was. He could sense how I was approaching him and took care of me. 00:47:14:13 - 00:47:34:23 ALLISON KRUG We didn't take off, you know. So I 100% believe this. I believe it can work even virtually with people across the screen. It's it comes down to the eyes. It comes down to the energy and the voice, even how the voice sounds. Yes, absolutely. We can influence each other. We have ripple effects of energy in our households. 00:47:34:23 - 00:48:01:11 ALLISON KRUG I work with clients who are suffering in relationships. Relationships change. If we change the system of equations, one person changes. The system of equations has to change. I you asked about the intersection between have the analogy and like where I am now, which seems to be very unrelated fields, but really it comes back to systems of human beings, energetic systems and making a change in one necessarily affects all the others. 00:48:01:11 - 00:48:10:22 ALLISON KRUG I've seen it happen. Things that I did not think were possible have happened in my own family. Like I did not think they were possible. 00:48:10:24 - 00:48:35:02 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Did you ever have you listen to the podcast series The Telepathy Tapes? Yes, I had Diane Hennessy Power on my podcast. Who's the researcher? Yeah. And, you know, I asked her these, you know, these questions about, understand seeing the rise in autism and the chronic disease epidemic and really clearly she said, well, we have children born into a natural world, right? 00:48:35:04 - 00:49:09:12 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN But there's also so much more we don't understand, because with those kids that were, you know, had profound autism and had these amazing telepathic abilities, it was interesting how they viewed us, the speakers, as almost as if we were less evolved. It's clear to me that we're going to move towards telepath communication. And I think there's good and evidence in alternative spaces and communities that, you know, that's already occurring with young kids coming in, born into this world right now. 00:49:09:14 - 00:49:43:21 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And I think that speaks to energy that we're already communicating to each other energetically. We're just taught to not trust it or understand it. So in my work as a clinical psychologist, what happens is we do have highly sensitive people, which I always change in my work with my clients, as I call it a gift. And that alters the perception or the judgment of the experience, because we live in a culture where emotions are demonized. 00:49:43:23 - 00:50:07:09 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN They're even spoken about in terms of symptoms of some illness that originates in the brain. I don't even believe consciousness emits from the brain. And then what's the treatment for that? Well, you take a drug that will essentially disconnect you from them. They'll numb you or emotional blunting is the most frequently identified reaction to like an SSRI, for example. 00:50:07:11 - 00:50:24:15 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And so now you're creating that battle that we spoke about earlier. You're in fight with your own nature. You're struggling with your own intuitive nature, which is going to lead to, a state of disease. Do you think we kind of fundamentally misunderstand our own mental health and these mental health diagnoses? 00:50:24:20 - 00:50:50:07 ALLISON KRUG Am I going to so much there? I do, I think that, you know, unfortunately, millennial parents have been, influenced to believe in the whole gentle parenting and permissive parenting. And, I think there are some good aspects of emotion awareness. It's much greater. But I think also I think Carl Jung said the more we focus on ourselves, the worse we feel. 00:50:50:09 - 00:51:19:15 ALLISON KRUG I think that it's too much of a good thing. I don't think all social and emotional learning belongs in schools. I do think that parents should see themselves as the first and most beloved teacher of their children. There's so many directions we could go with this. I think that, we really do have this major disconnect between ourselves and our biology and even our emotional world. 00:51:19:17 - 00:51:37:03 ALLISON KRUG And we just don't trust. We don't see ourselves as a unified whole being. We see ourselves, like you said, as a collection of parts. But if we take that down, even to the cellular level, when we're in chronic pain, I always feel for people who have chronic pain and, you know, like back pain is the most common pain in the US. 00:51:37:05 - 00:52:00:15 ALLISON KRUG Something that I've had and I just, I feel like I can't talk freely about it because someone who is in chronic pain is looking for medical relief. And yes, there are, surgical procedures that may be appropriate for some people. But before we get to that point, can we talk about the universe of options before surgical intervention, which has its own risks? 00:52:00:17 - 00:52:19:07 ALLISON KRUG I mean, even something as silly as ACL tears, you know, years ago in Japan, I had a party, at my house. I was not drinking. I don't tend to drink because I'm already so active. If I were to do that, things would really go crazy. And I was launching a rotten pumpkin, using a two by four on a round piece of wood. 00:52:19:07 - 00:52:30:11 ALLISON KRUG So using myself as like a human catapult. And I had this great image in my mind that I was going to launch the rotten pumpkin and somebody was going to catch it. It was going to be amazing. It's so much fun. It didn't go as high as I wanted. So I took a bigger jump and I blew out my ACL. 00:52:30:13 - 00:52:52:18 ALLISON KRUG And through that, I realized through some research that there are people who are called coppers, people who don't offer surgical repair. I didn't even realize that was an option. I was hobbling around base with like a, you know, a bamboo stick for a cane that I because I refused to, like, really, consider a surgical intervention. I just really wanted to let the swelling go down and see what can be done over time. 00:52:52:18 - 00:53:16:21 ALLISON KRUG And I found that you actually can allow your body to repair itself, interestingly enough. Also another, you know, running related injury, PhD, hamstring tendinopathy. It's a pain in the butt, literally. But you can also help that repair. But the interesting thing, the fascinating thing that I keep finding when I compare biology and psychology is we have to put a load on tendons in order to help them repair. 00:53:16:23 - 00:53:34:21 ALLISON KRUG We have to load them like we don't. We don't get away with relaxing in bed. That's never the answer. Relaxing in bed is never the answer. It's more distress. It's like the opposite of the direction you want. So this happened yesterday with my wrist. I can't tell you the story on air about what happened to me. It was a very exuberant interaction, and I. 00:53:34:23 - 00:53:55:07 ALLISON KRUG Hockey rink lobby. That was fun. It was not a bad thing, but I hurt my wrist somehow, and it's been painful. I haven't been able to put weight on it. Yesterday I'm like, well, you know, I'm going to go and do my usual thing my hockey rink parking lot workout, and I'm going to use my kettlebell and I'm going to do this and do that and, you know, spend my time wisely and try to stay healthy even though I'm on the road, my my wrist is better today. 00:53:55:07 - 00:54:09:16 ALLISON KRUG I can start to put weight on it because I didn't avoid using it. Yeah. I mean, so if that is true in so many little ways, what more could be true? Like if we if we use approach instead of avoidance, right. 00:54:09:18 - 00:54:27:21 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN I think a great example of this is the concussion scare that occurred in the United States. It's certainly it started with like the NFL and the NFL was putting a whole lot of attention on this. And I was a younger clinical psychologist during this push. And then you see now everyone was had a concussion. You know, I grew up playing football. 00:54:27:21 - 00:54:50:01 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN I played small college football. I had multiple concussions. And then my son was thrust into this community. And now when ever somebody would hit their head, they were like pulled out. They were recommended bed rest, not to go to school, not to exercise, not to move. And then boom. In my practice, you get all these calls about my son. 00:54:50:01 - 00:55:13:13 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN My daughter just had a concussion. And they're struggling from depression, from the concussion. Right. Because everything it emits from the brain, essentially. And in the neurology world, instead of understanding our natural ability to heal, not to say that the head injury didn't have a factor in mood. It absolutely does. But what you were doing is you were pulling that kid from their entire social support network. 00:55:13:15 - 00:55:39:01 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN You were pulling them from movement and exercise, which has been proven to be able to help the brain heal from a concussion. You're isolating them in darkness, away from light. Light has these healing properties that we haven't even begun to measure. It seems like conventional medical recommendations in some ways, are often the opposite of what we actually need to do for you. 00:55:39:01 - 00:55:51:01 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN You see this with, like, a sprained ankle. It blows up, it swells, and we're trying to get the swelling down when the swelling is naturally there to eliminate the, the toxins and and heal right. 00:55:51:03 - 00:55:51:21 ALLISON KRUG Yeah. I've heard. 00:55:52:01 - 00:55:52:03 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Of. 00:55:52:03 - 00:56:00:05 ALLISON KRUG This. Yeah. It's it's just mind blowing, isn't it? I also injured, you know, my calf right before I practice kendo in Japan. I don't know if you know anything about that. 00:56:00:05 - 00:56:01:06 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN I don't know. 00:56:01:08 - 00:56:20:12 ALLISON KRUG You would probably love it. It's, bamboo sword, a shiny and, full contact gear. And you are trying to slice a person from here to here in one strike or take the hand off is another strike. Men, quote unquote, art. And then the Doe strike is here, and you yell the strike before you strike it. 00:56:20:12 - 00:56:39:02 ALLISON KRUG So in order to get a point, you have to, like, yell really loudly. Really, really loudly. Yeah. And then you strike to get the full point. And, I was going for my second degree black belt test, and I managed to blow out my calf. And you need that leg to push you off into a very loud foot strike on the wooden floor. 00:56:39:02 - 00:56:56:11 ALLISON KRUG That's part of the whole thing, to strike fear in the opponent and create that spirit, that energy that we're talking about, right, can be sensed in martial arts with no words, no words at all. That energy is communicated like, well, what am I going to do? I'm not putting it in a boot. Of course, I was given a boot to immobilize my, you know, my whole leg. 00:56:56:16 - 00:57:14:10 ALLISON KRUG Well, that's not going to work because I need mobility. So I decided we're going to keep mobility and we're going to build strength while repairing this. So again, I'm just telling you these stories because through personal experience, I have found in every single situation when I went, followed, my intuition, went to the opposite direction of what was recommended. 00:57:14:10 - 00:57:34:14 ALLISON KRUG This whole safety culture you've been talking about, you know, let's let's protect it. Let's put it in a boot. Let's withdraw the person from everything that they know after concussion and see, are they depressed? Of course they're depressed. Every single thing that we recommend seems to be counter to what the body's natural, you know, resilience would dictate actually make sense. 00:57:34:16 - 00:58:01:19 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN I felt during my, my training as a cognitive behavioral psychologist in a lot of ways, they wanted to say things like, intuition is unscientific. It's, you know, it's you can't measure it. And it lends itself to like, false, like understandings of our environment and poor decision making. Right? I think that's another example of, like, how so many mainstream ideas get you to disconnect from your true nature. 00:58:01:21 - 00:58:18:02 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN By notice that you, you identify as an intuitive scientist, which in some ways, you know, is contradictory to it, which to each other in the way we think about materialism. Yeah. What do you mean by that intuitive scientist? 00:58:18:04 - 00:58:34:17 ALLISON KRUG Well, actually, one of the people I respect most during the pandemic, and I won't say who because I'm grateful for the compliment and I it was a shared, you know, private communication. But one of the people I respect, the most, who is in a position that's very senior right now, actually shared with me that I'm an intuitive scientist. 00:58:34:17 - 00:58:56:10 ALLISON KRUG I didn't come up with that myself. I don't really look upon myself very highly at all. I have a lot of insecurities, and when I noticed that he said that, I gave it some thought. What does that actually mean? You know, and I think it means that it's not an opportunity for us to to take the easy road and not invest in the hard science and understanding a mechanism. 00:58:56:10 - 00:59:28:22 ALLISON KRUG I think that when you have a very deep understanding of mechanism, you can be intuitive. So that's how I see the two blend together. If you dive deep into immunology, for instance, and really understand, you know, B cells and T cells and the roles of each in and how it really works at the mucosal level. And, you know, the special secretary IGA is that come out and our, you know, double dimer and can really grab on to the stuff that's coming into our, you know, oral cavity as being a special kind of immune cell. 00:59:28:22 - 00:59:56:13 ALLISON KRUG Then like when you understand at that level then you can intuit to a nonspecific level okay. So if that's true then this might also be true. What else could be true? You allow yourself to think creatively about things more and even combine. So I work with people who tend to be like me, tend to combine things that are not naturally combined, or combine ideas or go in a direction that might not be expected or be a divergent thinker or even a disrupter. 00:59:56:16 - 01:00:12:13 ALLISON KRUG I love working with people like that because that's where innovation comes from. And I think that's the role of intuition is to be, both deeply familiar with and curious about mechanisms, but also asking questions about, okay, what else could this mean? 01:00:12:15 - 01:00:52:14 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Yeah, I mean, that's a great explanation of it. Brings up a number of other questions for me about our what we talked about a little bit earlier about disconnection from nature and, maybe bio feel connected to a greater sense of source consciousness. There's a book out now by Doctor Greg Braden called Pure Human, which speaks to this, current and upcoming, spiritual battle between AI and the anti-human transhumanist movement versus those who would consider themselves pro human. 01:00:52:16 - 01:01:37:21 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And he's communicating. There's some similarities between your work and, you know what he's talking about, especially when we talk about, like, gut microbiome, and the. Exquisite and perfected nature of the human body in relationship to the environment. And he discussed his intuition in terms of being fully in a place where you're aligned with God and that you're in that flow and you're connected with nature and everything that exists within us assist us in that process, including like the complex organism, those that exist, live organisms that exist within our body. 01:01:37:23 - 01:02:01:07 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And what is familiar between his work and other holistic health practitioners is that the more you sanitize and the more you disconnect, you're also disconnecting from that greater consciousness. And so do you see that intuition as you know, being in that flow, being connected with nature in that way, and then information is channeled through us? 01:02:01:09 - 01:02:27:10 ALLISON KRUG Yeah, absolutely. The word that came to mind as you were framing your question was suffering. And I think that without suffering we don't have connection. And that might be an odd thing to say. But that's what's coming up for me right now. And I think that, moments in life when we are put into, times of suffering, whether it's a family member you're really worried about, which is what triggered the phase of the work that I'm in now or the back pain that, you know, leveled me. 01:02:27:10 - 01:02:51:04 ALLISON KRUG And I couldn't walk for a few days, and I was up close and personal to grass, blades of grass, looking at bees, just trusting that with every little bit of movement that I could, that I could do, I was going to be able to walk again. Like every little like you get down to just millimeters of progress measurable and that exponentiate over time. 01:02:51:06 - 01:03:05:22 ALLISON KRUG I am really worried about where we are with AI. To get back to your question about humans, and I, I heard Lex Fridman say that he believes robots have rights, and I was driving I, I love hockey because I get hours in the car with my son. Yeah. I'm like, you know what? I have an issue with that. 01:03:05:22 - 01:03:26:06 ALLISON KRUG Lex. I'm sorry. I know you're famous and you're brilliant. I have a real issue with that. I know that I don't agree with you. I know that I don't agree that robots have rights. Yes, we can anthropomorphize them. I do that with everything. My car has a name, everything. I have lots of things that I name and imaginary friends that I use to help me in my family because I'm one woman and there's three men. 01:03:26:08 - 01:03:49:10 ALLISON KRUG I need lots of allies in my family. So I have lots. Yeah, a great imagination, but no robots. I can act like a human. Be a great thought partner. It's far too complementary, though. It doesn't really push you. It doesn't push you like a spouse to poke holes in your theories. I've worked with I just to experiment with it quite a lot in my work and it can expedite things. 01:03:49:10 - 01:04:18:13 ALLISON KRUG It's a great research partner. I mean, it can run p values for me all day long. But it's it's far too lazy. Humans are far more interesting and have the capacity for, I think unlimited creativity. And that's the real difference. I'm speaking way out of my lane here. I'm not an AI expert, but I think that every time that I have written something, what has been noticed, if it came originally from me versus it was a summary produced by AI. 01:04:18:15 - 01:04:38:06 ALLISON KRUG What's generated an interaction with another human has been something I authentically wrote, and I've actually gone back and done audits to see did that idea, that germ of an idea come from me, or did it come from the AI during the chat? And I found all the authentically good things have come from me, which is kind of a weird thing to do because it's obviously easier for me. 01:04:38:06 - 01:04:55:02 ALLISON KRUG I'd put out a lot of content trying to explain what it is I do on my website, and it'd be easier if I could just like, go look at all my stuff and tell me what I do. Yeah, right. But actually, the best ideas are generated by humans, I think. And AI is really just a it's a predictive model. 01:04:55:02 - 01:05:02:08 ALLISON KRUG It's math. It's great. It's but it's it's fundamentally lazy and it's not ever going to be like a human. 01:05:02:10 - 01:05:32:24 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Which is concerning to me. Like I have clients now who will reflect on our session and go home and putting key details like into I almost like to confirm or dis confirm, you know, the hypotheses we made have been discussing or some of the learning that took place. And I'm more interested in the process of that, like being disconnected from truth, being disconnected from how you feel, from what you experience, and then having to externalize that for like another, another source. 01:05:32:24 - 01:06:04:05 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN I think that's part of the problem that we've gotten into, into our health care system, is that we're always externalizing our health to these experts or, you know, who identify to experts. And it's it's a I think it's a dangerous path. I thought I saw this during your your debate with Doctor Kristen Walsh. Is that you? So hold on to this idea of having to provide all the answers to, to try to be the expert and that you have more knowledge, you have access to more knowledge than any other, you know, person. 01:06:04:05 - 01:06:27:24 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And and you're disseminating that knowledge for them to make the best decision. And what happens in that entire process is you begin to see health as something that happens to you, outside of you. The battle, the the danger of the germ theory of viruses invading you. And you're just susceptible to that. There's nothing you can really do about it, or just the role of, you know, how we view genetics, right? 01:06:27:24 - 01:06:59:05 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN I have no agency. I, I was born into this body. And that disconnects us to the greater kind of spiritual kind of thinking and experience, as well as the autonomy and power we have in our own health and well-being. Like one thing that I've really learned is the power of mindset and consciousness, right? Going back to pain, for example, you know, if if you see pain is something that is happening to you, you have no control over it exasperates and intensifies that pain. 01:06:59:05 - 01:07:22:02 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN You're ultimately going to turn to pain medication and other things. But those who learn to be able to focus their attention away from the pain, there's this great control theory of pain and almost like shuts down the connection between the brain and the injury, and that you're shifting consciousness away from it and it decreases the, the perception of that pain. 01:07:22:02 - 01:07:54:20 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And that's why you have so many variables here when it comes to pain tolerance. Like, you know, back before we really knew much about an ACL, you have a professional football career where they were playing with torn ACLs. So it always begs the question if it does not exist in consciousness, does it even exist at all? And when you when you grow up and you live in a fear based consciousness, or we push ideas, we just fundamentally assume them all to be truth. 01:07:54:22 - 01:08:14:08 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And they're right. Because in the collective consciousness, we've accepted all those things. So they are actually impacting our body on a fundamental level. But quantum reality, quantum physics would show that consciousness is able to move matter. 01:08:14:10 - 01:08:25:10 ALLISON KRUG I have a question for you. How do you help your clients shift their consciousness into a state where they're ready to accept responsibility? 01:08:25:12 - 01:08:52:09 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN So it's really a good question. You know, I've told this story on the podcast, in the larger podcasts that I've been in, I got woken up by a series of events that made no sense to me materially. So I would be the I would have been the person six years ago that, would not really understand or would not believe the fact that maybe clairvoyance or clear sentience or these other or mediums or things like this existed. 01:08:52:09 - 01:09:11:06 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN I would have believed in fundamental materials ism. I had a I had a distrust for authority. So I was always from you need to prove it mentality. Right. And I'm sure you kind of there too. As an epidemiologist, you want to use data to prove it, to protect people. But I had a series of, of events that happened. 01:09:11:11 - 01:09:33:01 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN I don't know if you've if you've heard this, if I want to tell the story again, I'll just some quick ones for your purpose. It was the February before, 2020, before March of 2020, when Covid hit. And I had a father who died of a heart attack on his 50th birthday out of the blue. And you know who was very important figure in all our lives. 01:09:33:01 - 01:09:58:24 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN So that was a tremendous loss. But we used to listen to Billy Joel growing up nonstop. Right. And, you know, before the internet and everything, you're on car trips, you know, that's all you have access to. So you're just always hearing Billy Joel. So there was like an entire month, 30 days straight. And I was in the car all the time, you know, going for my practice, picking my, my, my son up or my one of my daughters up, taking my son to practice, to work out. 01:09:58:24 - 01:10:28:24 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And I'm always back and forth, probably 6 to 10 times a day in my car. Every time I'd go in my car, Billy Joel song would come on. And no, I'm not listening to like, Sirius channel that plays Billy Joel songs because I started messing with, I'm going to put on an Am channel, I'm going to put on something else, and then I would announce it to everyone who came in the car before I'd start started, we're going to hear a Billy Joel, song before I let you off here, before we're done nonstop. 01:10:28:24 - 01:11:01:07 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Right? But I still couldn't believe it that it was something spiritual or it was a communication from my father. Randomness. Right. I started, you know, really starting to questioning things at that time. But I ended up, meeting a woman who was a was a Christian and was. It was a meeting. She's she was from Colorado. And she said, hey, your father is trying to communicate to you through, you know, Billy Joe Joel songs. 01:11:01:09 - 01:11:23:15 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN How how would she know that? You know my meaning. I just kept my mouth shut. I didn't say a thing with her. And also communicated message to me from my father about events in my life that only he and I would not like. I even forgot about them. But dating back to probably of seventh grade, things that were probably affecting me subconsciously. 01:11:23:17 - 01:11:45:13 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN So I decided to meet with her for a few times over the course of, a couple of years, and she was trying to teach me that we have frequencies that we can tune into. So just like Billy Joel was coming over the radio, that's a frequency. We have other frequencies we can tune into. We all have the capabilities to do that. 01:11:45:15 - 01:12:04:24 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN You just have to bring it into consciousness. And so she would give me a series of books, including science around it. Because it was to prove to me, like, here, you're someone who needs it needs to be proven to. So all these books about how to tune into frequency and how that our health paradigm is wrong, and a number of other things. 01:12:05:01 - 01:12:27:23 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And the one session that I had with her that changed everything for me was she said that I have, I have, I have guides, and we all have guides. You can call them angels, you can call them guides that they're helping you to fulfill your soul's mission. And she said that there is this older gentleman, he looks like an older gentleman. 01:12:27:23 - 01:12:53:01 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And what was coming through to her, who has been with me for a long time and in every session. And she said he's trying to talk to you. You're really good. Practically right. I at the time I was doing dialectical behavior therapy and cognitive behavioral therapy, very skill based training, all these things, coaching calls. And they said, that's good work. 01:12:53:01 - 01:13:21:07 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And there's clients that are going to benefit from that. But there's a whole nother level to this. And then she in communicating to me she's always like you can hear she's like downloading information. She says, you you did this one time before and it was with a particular client. She starts describing a client, you know, substance abuse, molested as a child, all these things. 01:13:21:08 - 01:14:00:05 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And I couldn't remember who that client was. I've seen so many people. That kind of trajectory is more than one person. She stops. She pauses. She tells me his name. A private, confidential relationship therapy relationship that I saw years prior explains to me. They were working through me with that client. And then I remembered, and it was somebody who I struggled with, very aggressive, potentially violent, involved with criminal activities. 01:14:00:07 - 01:14:33:19 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And so I would pray before every session for guidance, he said. I was tapping into a frequency and I was able to, you know, help that person more than, you know. That person disappeared like I saw him for a particular time to trauma work and then just, like, disappear. I had no idea what happened to him. A couple weeks later, calls into my practice, and it had been like 6 or 7 years since I'd seen them. 01:14:33:21 - 01:14:45:04 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And he comes in to see me and sits down and like, was grateful for the work I did with him. He overcame drugs and alcohol and he was a drug and alcohol counselor. 01:14:45:06 - 01:14:46:05 ALLISON KRUG 01:14:46:07 - 01:15:13:17 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And then I explained to him just what happened two weeks ago, and he explained that, something similar had happened to him. Long story short, in my work with this person, I also started meditation and along with a number of books and a number of other learning opportunities and all these people that I'm meeting just learn to quiet my mind and surrender. 01:15:13:19 - 01:15:47:09 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And in that information is downloaded in order to help people. And I also learned that we can assist in healing on the matter level, on the physical matter, energetically with love. Yeah. You know, which is just raising a consciousness, raising an energy of compassion and belief in that person and seeing that as their brother or sister. And so I gave up control that it was my job, my responsibility to teach, to give. 01:15:47:11 - 01:16:13:20 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And I shifted and just allowed for whatever to come through. Now, what I do is I help people to quiet their mind. I do help people to see their stories and its impact on them. I do I do help people understand that emotions are signals and gifts and everything that is happening them and has happened to them in their life is happening for them. 01:16:13:22 - 01:16:20:12 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And that profound shift has made all the difference in my work. 01:16:20:14 - 01:16:42:21 ALLISON KRUG Thank you so much for sharing that story. I've really respected your work and DBT in particular, because it really puts the client in a position of power. It seems like to me, being an outsider, looking where they are empowered to make changes in their lives. And I could see how if you have a lot of training, right, you would be thinking that it's your specific thing that you're doing eMDR or whatever, right? 01:16:42:22 - 01:17:07:15 ALLISON KRUG You know that it's the technique that matters. But what came through in that was the relationship, but also generosity and humility on your part, recognizing that there's, you know, an energetic transference and a spiritual realm, you know, that's present in the room at the same time. And I, I really believe that to be true. Angel actually means messenger. 01:17:07:17 - 01:17:32:18 ALLISON KRUG And I, I think that, where I am increasingly cautious is, you know, there's, there's good and evil spiritual forces at work and the evil ones, unfortunately, present themselves in disguises as good. And, so I've just I've been a lifelong Christian, been a Catholic for, I think, little over 20 years now. It's my husband's Catholic. 01:17:32:20 - 01:17:53:02 ALLISON KRUG And, that has become much more a central part of my life now is, you know, daily prayer, daily focus. You know, my phone's next to my bed. I've recently started, like, reading a scripture instead of checking Instagram first thing in the morning. Changes everything it does, right? How about that? You know, we have choice. We can look at something different. 01:17:53:02 - 01:18:15:03 ALLISON KRUG A different app on our phone. But I really appreciate what you shared in that story, because I think it says two things. One is humans are infinitely capable if they recognize that there is, divine power and divine support for them. And it's not just us here muddling about alone in the world. Actually, we're not alone at all. 01:18:15:05 - 01:18:22:05 ALLISON KRUG Even if you think about the microbiome, it's 40 trillion friends in there helping you out. We're actually outnumbered. You. 01:18:22:05 - 01:18:23:14 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Mean they're not invaders? 01:18:23:16 - 01:18:41:14 ALLISON KRUG They're not invaders. They're down there like. Dude, I can't believe you just ate that processed food. But I'll help you out, please. Like, if I feel like I'm a little off, I'll eat a little kimchi, you know, just feel like it's the. It's the most, like, in-your-face sort of fermented food you can put in your microbiome. And then I'm like, mindset again. 01:18:41:16 - 01:18:43:02 ALLISON KRUG The kimchi is down there to help. Right. 01:18:43:02 - 01:18:45:04 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN But that's a powerful belief. 01:18:45:09 - 01:19:09:01 ALLISON KRUG Right. And belief and a lot of powerful other stuff. Don't eat kimchi and drink kombucha at the same time. Maybe, before a date. Right. Yeah. So, but I, I believe what you have shared is, it's very powerful, and it's it's so important. Right now getting back to the suffering that people are experiencing in the fear culture, because what you're opening up for people is consciousness. 01:19:09:03 - 01:19:31:08 ALLISON KRUG And, you're helping them to understand that it's more than as much as I wish that I could be at the forefront of good mathematical modeling to help with these decisions about vaccines, getting back to the millennial parents, it's so much more than that. That's that's one aspect of being a good human, an enlightened human who recognizes that we don't have all the answers. 01:19:31:08 - 01:19:59:05 ALLISON KRUG And we should be curious. But it's also faith in, you know, there's we're going to be exposed to challenges and assaults to our, our body and our mind, you know, for our entire lives. And what are we going to do to manage that day to day? And there's just so much friction right now. I the coaching school that I went to train me in seven levels of energy and so many people are living in sort of either the level one, which is like things are happening to me. 01:19:59:05 - 01:20:18:23 ALLISON KRUG I have no agency, you know, dysfunctional ego. There's nothing I can do here. Level one. Level two is a lot of friction, like very binary thinking, you know? Right or wrong, I'm going to fix this thing. I need to get control of this situation. And, you know, level three, this is like the lower levels of energy. Level three is I'm tolerating the situation. 01:20:18:23 - 01:20:40:22 ALLISON KRUG I'm going to make the best of it. I'm going to find the silver lining, man. I was living there a lot as a parent. Level four is very focus on others and concern for others well-being. Three and four is where I was. That was my groove. You know, like all busy parents and professionals are living there quite a bit, but we're sweeping a lot of frustration under the rug when we're living in those levels. 01:20:40:22 - 01:21:03:24 ALLISON KRUG And it's possible that over time, you know, you'll erupt into an argument with your spouse or with someone else or a boss or and I just hear it all the time. Now that I'm aware of what this looks like in myself and what triggers me, I can hear it in other people. And it's just what that does to your nervous system all the time is it's like constant fight or flight, and that's just not healthy. 01:21:03:24 - 01:21:21:06 ALLISON KRUG That triggers downstream, you know, inflammation, gut permeability. We're not eating well right now. So much processed food. We're so busy, we're not really conscious of what we're eating. So what does that do? If you're back to the interplay of all of these factors in arts, and then we add the spiritual on to that, what are we plugging into? 01:21:21:06 - 01:21:44:21 ALLISON KRUG What is the algorithm in our mind? You know, like what are we seeding. What sorts are we thoughts? Are we eating at the beginning of our day that triggers our internal algorithm? And what would be different if we just tweaked any one of those variables, you know, and we like if you look at your Instagram or if you go into a little, little, search area, you can see what anyone's algorithm is. 01:21:44:21 - 01:21:58:16 ALLISON KRUG If they just pop up in the search, you can see it's already populated. They're like, are they looking at cute cows and cats, or are they looking at other stuff? Like, you can see what the algorithm is that's driving their, their behaviors and their and their psyche. 01:21:58:18 - 01:22:23:18 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Well, I want to go back to the kind of spiritual component of this, because I thought you brought up something very interesting and how important it is to protect ourselves. Use discernment because there are, you know, darker energies or forces that are, that are at play. And that's the one thing that you're hearing now, from health care practitioners to large podcasters, we're starting to now talk about things spiritually when it has not. 01:22:23:18 - 01:22:44:13 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN It's almost been taboo previously. Like you don't want to come across as crazy, you want to fit into the greater scientific community. But now you're hearing this. So from your perspective, how do you see those, like maybe dark forces or that spiritual battle that's that's going on? And how can it infiltrate our lives? 01:22:44:15 - 01:23:12:13 ALLISON KRUG Well, I think that the. I think that they come across in arrogance, in thinking that we have the answers. The opposite of love. I personally am aware of the the greatest awareness that I have was conditional love for self and others. I didn't really realize how conditional I was, and I think that, evil influences can cause us to be conditional. 01:23:12:15 - 01:23:34:08 ALLISON KRUG Meaning if x, then y, my acceptance of, you know, my, my older son's choices, for instance, might have been unconditionally. Are you following a path that seems to make sense to me, and that's not really my place. My place is to provide a good foundation for him. And then as as our children become older, they need to be able to make choices. 01:23:34:08 - 01:23:55:05 ALLISON KRUG They need to use that discernment that you talked about. But if we're constantly moving away from self and entertaining ourselves with, you know, YouTube or other content, then we're not actually creating the white space, default mode network. I think of it that way. Task positive network is when we're focusing on something and doing something. Default mode network is when we're folding socks or cleaning or whatever. 01:23:55:11 - 01:24:21:03 ALLISON KRUG We have very little default mode network time, which is when I think these forces exert their influence on us, when our brain is just exploring and the subconscious is bubbling up into the conscious. I think we have to be very, very careful about. I know I'm ranging all over the place here, but we have to be really careful about what we're putting in our algorithm, what we're putting into our conscious, because that will pop up in our unconscious. 01:24:21:05 - 01:24:42:22 ALLISON KRUG And I really think it's important that kids not be on social media, not be on YouTube constantly, that parents do take go, do a travel sport simply for the windshield time. But don't let your kid ride in the backseat on their phone. No, they're up with you if they're old enough, of course, in the passenger seat and you're talking and you're listening to things together, you're having a shared experience. 01:24:43:02 - 01:25:14:08 ALLISON KRUG You're understanding what's going on in their consciousness. You're maybe quiet for a while. You're listening to music. Right? But I do think that these darker forces look good and it's very difficult to discern what is, you know, a holy or a divine influence versus an evil influence. And, gosh, if you want to go down this rabbit hole, it's very, very sad for me to see what's happening with our most intelligent, you know, the kids on the autism spectrum. 01:25:14:10 - 01:25:54:02 ALLISON KRUG I forget what you said before, but it reminded me that, you know, we're actually pruning neurons as we grow older. We start with tremendous neuroplasticity, tremendous connectivity in the brain, and then we actually prune what we don't need. So I think that, even the gifted label is problematic. And I think that, you know, if, if we look at our very, like our, our new babies, our youngest generation that is being born right now, parents have an opportunity to be very conscious in their choices about how they're raising their children and go back to a time where there was less opportunity for evil influence, coming through social media and causing kids 01:25:54:02 - 01:26:12:21 ALLISON KRUG to think that, you know, there's a more welcoming path for them, you know, that there's something wrong with them just the way they are, just even to touch on the challenge of being a white male right now. I just wonder how many, you know, brilliant young males felt like they were not divinely created. 01:26:12:23 - 01:26:13:23 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN There's a lot of self-hate. 01:26:13:23 - 01:26:42:16 ALLISON KRUG And now what the better option is to transition into being a female? Because females are celebrated, it really concerns me that kids on the spectrum are overrepresented in that population. And, I myself have lived a lifetime with body loathing. I had an eating disorder in high school, and I can see now where that came from. It came from family of origin and I see it in my mom. 01:26:42:18 - 01:27:07:17 ALLISON KRUG She might not be happy with me saying that, but even my mom now is constantly. She's 86, 85, 86. She's conscious of what she eats right? And so if you grow up in an environment, that is, you know, conducive to questioning your value and, and just even the shape of your body and your worth, then you're not dialed into, you know, divine love. 01:27:07:17 - 01:27:12:19 ALLISON KRUG You talked about love before. What love really is, is unconditional. 01:27:12:21 - 01:27:45:22 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Where your attention goes, your energy flows. Right? And so we have to be very protective of what takes our energy, like what we're giving that to. Right. And I do think about everything that young people are exposed to that I was never exposed to, all these images, pornography that is accessible, right, for young developing, boys and girls who are just starting to understand their own sexuality and the energy of all of that. 01:27:45:24 - 01:28:08:17 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN It says a lot about a culture is when you, like, make something like that so free and accessible, but other things that are more health promoting are just so difficult to obtain. Like, it speaks a little bit to the power of that evil that exists in our society. And that's what I'm, you know, worried about by very powerful influences in our culture. 01:28:08:19 - 01:28:28:11 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN You know, they tend to attend Davos every year for a conference. And, you know, they really are have this this viewpoint of, of humanity, you know, as, as if we're a bunch of parasites, really, who don't have, you know, a lot of inherent value. We're just ruining the Earth. And we need to be controlled, or even eliminated. 01:28:28:13 - 01:28:50:06 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN There's a strong population movement that drives so many belief systems and health interventions that you only become awakened to when you choose to pay attention to it. Right? I mean, it's out there in public. You can watch those, those videos, but to what degree are we going to draw our attention to those things? Right. It can consume you. 01:28:50:08 - 01:29:06:06 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And then we see this in our culture where people become obsessed with with their own health. They become obsessed with, the next threat, the next danger. And in some regard, you know, that is disconnecting us from our divine and from our purpose. 01:29:06:06 - 01:29:21:08 ALLISON KRUG It is right. You could you could get completely obsessed with like, which supplement it actually makes sense, right? And I don't even do that. I'm just like, the only thing I know to do. You went you talked about don't mess with nature. I get confused by all of the options available to. And I want to live a long and healthy life too. 01:29:21:08 - 01:29:38:17 ALLISON KRUG And yes, I'm 53 and I have aches and pains. What should I do? There are so many options. Which way should I go? I keep coming back to like even HRT hormone replacement therapy. I have to dig into that a little bit and use my epi brain there a little bit. But my fundamental belief is I was divinely created as I am. 01:29:38:19 - 01:29:56:02 ALLISON KRUG I am meant to go through menopause. Should I go and put estrogen in me because my joints are a little achy? As I was doing my hotel room warmups this morning, I'm like, you know, funny enough, my wrist is feeling better, so maybe that's not menopause after all. Maybe it was just a wrist injury and I can get better without considering HRT. 01:29:56:02 - 01:30:15:06 ALLISON KRUG I just might. For me personally, it's don't mess with what God created. Just try to, you know, have the mindset, have the belief. Keep doing what I know I should do, have some responsibility to go and take care of myself, right? It does take effort. It does take energy. And and that's that's what I know. That's just for me. 01:30:15:06 - 01:30:43:06 ALLISON KRUG Other people may decide that they will feel more comfortable having a vaccine. Okay. Well, recognize that recognize that your, you know, choosing a vaccine, maybe for the biological properties, but also for the psychological. Recognize that. But maybe you could start from a more resilient place psychologically, right, to make your decisions. Maybe we don't have to be in such a fear stance when we're making our vaccine choices or whatever choice our supplement choices. 01:30:43:08 - 01:31:00:14 ALLISON KRUG Not to say that supplements don't make sense. I mean, there are certain ones that, you know, for my 86 year old dad knack for COPD, it might make sense. There's very little harm from what I can tell. And it might help him breathe better. But, something about attention really reminded me of my older son said about school it's not my time being wasted so much. 01:31:00:14 - 01:31:22:20 ALLISON KRUG It's my attention being directed. And I think he's so wise. He said that when he was 16 or 17 and it's like profound. I keep coming back to that. No one should be directing your attention. That is something that you should be sovereign over. And when you're using a device, you're using, you know, apps and things like that, someone's directing your attention, like how or why are you okay with giving that up? 01:31:22:20 - 01:31:27:04 ALLISON KRUG Because it is changing your algorithm. 01:31:27:06 - 01:31:51:03 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Yeah. And it's so much about the conditioning, about deference to authority and the way that we teach in public schools. Generally speaking, which is a lot of regurgitating back information that it's told to you. It's not a whole lot of creativity, critical thinking, analysis. It's like you have to give the right answer. Even with math. I remember having these discussions with math teachers. 01:31:51:05 - 01:32:09:05 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN You'd have these kids who could come up with the answer, doing it different than the steps that the math teacher was teaching you, and you'd get all these points taken off for not following the step. And I just think, boy what is that conditioning. Somebody to have to do. Follow a rule even if it's slower. 01:32:09:07 - 01:32:10:00 ALLISON KRUG Right. 01:32:10:02 - 01:32:34:03 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Like you're just going to have to do it your way because this is the way you teach it. And that I mean it's going to thwart just progression. And that's what you see our public school systems have done is they've really it's become fertile ground for this entire system that really works on our compliance and suspending our critical thought, thinking and connection to our true nature. 01:32:34:05 - 01:32:55:10 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN That's the great thing about what Covid has done, because it has awakened so many people to so many of those aspects of our institutions. But do you think that there's I mean, the downside to this is the complete loss of of trust that exists. Do you see that as a net positive or is it harmful? 01:32:55:12 - 01:33:17:08 ALLISON KRUG My first instinct says it's a net positive. It's a reckoning. And I think people have abdicated far too much of their decision making to others that they perceive to be capable. Me among them. I, you know, went to the School of Public Health, and I thought people in public health were intelligent, well-meaning people, and they are generally, but they are not exerting as much critical thinking. 01:33:17:14 - 01:33:36:03 ALLISON KRUG I mean, a lot of the questions that came up during the pandemic should have been met with a lot more open conversation and resistance. And, I can tell you that people were not comfortable asking questions. And that has been something that is, I think, marked me as a student for a long time. That annoying person sitting in the front of the class asking question because I turn red when I ask questions. 01:33:36:03 - 01:33:48:17 ALLISON KRUG I have red hair, so I would always sit in the front of the class so that no one could see me turning red when I asked the questions, and I'd be that person who got a 98 on the test. But I was so worried that that 2% that I missed would be my unraveling later. That's the imposter syndrome, right? 01:33:48:17 - 01:34:13:19 ALLISON KRUG Like I got to get that 2% or like later. It will be a huge problem when I won't understand anything. People have to accept that they have a responsibility to ask questions and getting to the schools. I really think that parents need to recognize they have far more power than they think they do when it comes to raising their children, and far more responsibility than their maybe, realizing that they need to take on when it comes to educating their kids. 01:34:13:19 - 01:34:34:01 ALLISON KRUG I think that it's a two way street. Schools have made parents feel very much like they're back to the invaders and the intruders not welcome, and they're causing trouble. I ask too many questions and they have too many different viewpoints. And it's very there's a very acrimonious relationship between schools and parents right now. And parents are, you know, trying to be different and respectful. 01:34:34:01 - 01:34:54:08 ALLISON KRUG And so they're not getting, you know, too involved in some cases. You know, you see the school boards in Northern Virginia and it is very acrimonious. And, I do think that's evidence of the reckoning that I think needs to happen. But parents really need to understand that they have a great responsibility for their child's education. And that the most you're talking about the nature of children. 01:34:54:08 - 01:35:22:06 ALLISON KRUG And sometimes, like some of our most disruptive, most difficult personalities. I know you've worked with a lot of people who probably have been diagnosed with borderline, and, and how that could just actually be a highly intelligent person, an adolescent going through the regular tumult of adolescence. I try to look at those most challenging individuals from a different mindset, like they're actually brilliant and creative and they're resisting, you know why? 01:35:22:06 - 01:35:42:02 ALLISON KRUG Why not look at them that way versus like, oh, they're causing so much trouble. We need to get a diagnosis and go slap the ADHD label on them, get them medicated and like, strip their personality away entirely. Right. I don't think that schools are healthy for our most creative, divergent thinkers at all, and that extends even into the workplace. 01:35:42:08 - 01:36:03:10 ALLISON KRUG So those people are going to naturally self-select, to not go into corporate America. They're not going to go into the workplace, they're going to go out here and be entrepreneurs and and do interesting things. But unfortunately, that means that we're left with a pool of people. If you think in epidemiology terms, that population has been self-selected to be group thinkers, comfortable with norms and box checking and not questioning. 01:36:03:12 - 01:36:28:02 ALLISON KRUG And so I think the problem starts, the funnel starts very, very early in public school. And until we get to a place where public policymakers are comfortable with really divergent thinkers coming in and asking very difficult questions, things aren't going to change because we've got a self-selection mechanism through our institutionalized schooling system that does not welcome a different way of doing things. 01:36:28:02 - 01:36:56:11 ALLISON KRUG It's not mastery based education. Classrooms have 12 grade levels of capacity within them. How is the teacher supposed to deal with that? Why don't we go back to the one room schoolhouse and mastery based, and you move along at your pace? Acceleration is the most underutilized, you know, instructional technique for differentiating instruction in a classroom. And there is so much resistance to accelerating a child through it, like we have faced that for years. 01:36:56:11 - 01:37:14:04 ALLISON KRUG I have, you know, kids who were four years ahead in math, say, in fourth grade and ready for algebra as a rising fifth grader, you know, my older son basically broke the system and the most tested kid on all of Bainbridge Island at the time, a credit to that school system. They saw that, and they created another pathway for him. 01:37:14:04 - 01:37:33:07 ALLISON KRUG But there are so many parents who don't have the language to advocate for their kids to do anything different, that the kids are suffering in school because of the pandemic. We're now doing catch up because of learning loss, right? So school was already not great. It was boring for about half the kids, according to some Johns Hopkins research published back in 2015. 01:37:33:08 - 01:37:45:03 ALLISON KRUG So now we've dumb that down even more to catch kids up. We have a whole group of kids who I think are being overdiagnosed and overmedicated because school is bad, the environment is bad. 01:37:45:05 - 01:38:04:17 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN I think it goes back to our discussion of of fear. There there is a fear of stepping outside from the herd. And you see this with parents to who who do have, you know, children who are accelerated like that and have these gifts and talents. It's almost no, don't show that. Don't demonstrate that. And let's suppress this. 01:38:04:19 - 01:38:29:01 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN You know, this intellectual and creative, like, blossoming. That's that's demonstrated. I do these you're reminding me so many conversations I've had with people. I do some consulting on the side, and it's often around what you just discussed the labeling, the legitimacy of the label, the limited perspective in which we're. 01:38:29:03 - 01:38:56:10 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN In which we're, you know, constructing an identity for a young person. And then what are the recommendations like? Recommended steps. So I'm reminded of like some conversations I've had with actually some families in Australia because they're they're like an accelerated version of the United States when it comes to, you know, Western medicine labels, psychiatric care and, you know, compliance and conformity. 01:38:56:10 - 01:39:25:16 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And you saw that with their adherence to the lockdowns and everything that happened there. But if if a kid starts demonstrating some of the qualities that you just were talking about that with, with your own son, what's naturally going to happen for that kid is they're going to have a really difficult time sustaining attention in school, and you already have a natural energy that to move your body, to focus on novel stimuli, to build and create. 01:39:25:16 - 01:39:31:07 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN We are all creators. I mean, we're here, so you're suppressing that. You're putting them in a box. 01:39:31:09 - 01:39:32:04 ALLISON KRUG Yes. 01:39:32:06 - 01:39:49:03 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And you're having to focus on regardless. I know there's some great public school teachers out there. I don't want to, you know, in any way devalue them. Some of them are great, but they're just the same people who came out of the system. You know, they love those rules. You know, they often were praised and reinforced in those environments. 01:39:49:05 - 01:40:19:19 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN They're not necessarily the most creative and innovative people. They're not great at actually identifying who might be uniquely special. They're just going to label the noncompliance as being problematic. And of course, what are these drugs do they ensure compliance because they're going to numb you? They're going to sedate you. And when we misrepresent all of that as like an improvement and a focus, when you're really doing is you're drugging that person into following rules. 01:40:20:00 - 01:40:48:15 ALLISON KRUG I've heard it, some of you describe it as like you, you've when you have ADHD, you could, like so many things, are interesting and it's hard to narrow the focus when you take a stimulant like Adderall. It's just anything put in front of you becomes interesting. So you essentially become a robot, which is unfortunate. Roger I when I was in college at UVA, like back in the early 90s, I took psych 101 and one of the papers, that I wrote back then was looking at our prescribing habits in the US versus Europe. 01:40:48:15 - 01:40:52:04 ALLISON KRUG I don't have that paper because it was way back when, whenever there was like, you know. 01:40:52:04 - 01:40:53:17 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN I read your blog on it. 01:40:53:19 - 01:40:57:11 ALLISON KRUG I did you. So it was already out of control way back then. Yeah. 01:40:57:13 - 01:41:02:01 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN I think I think, there was like a 4,000% increase in. 01:41:02:01 - 01:41:02:16 ALLISON KRUG Right, 01:41:02:18 - 01:41:06:05 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Use of stimulant drugs in the United States compared to European countries. 01:41:06:06 - 01:41:38:04 ALLISON KRUG Right, right. Now you're you're right. There are a few teachers, and I think it's a parent's job. If you have a divergent thinker to find those few teachers who can identify, you know, raw talent or capacity or curiosity or, or energy, just plain intensity and energy is often what shows up, especially if you have economically disadvantaged kids. They're not necessarily going to be doing like algebra in third grade, but they're going to have tremendous problem solving capability, storytelling, you know, animated behavior, leadership on the playground, athletic ability. 01:41:38:04 - 01:42:00:22 ALLISON KRUG There's all kinds of ways to find this intensity. But, I mean, even the gifted label is problematic because back to what I was alluding to earlier, were all born with neuroplasticity. I think that major life changes, stressors, suffering can trigger neuroplasticity. Exercises one you've probably delved into. This exercise is a stress on the body, and it does cause nerve growth factor to be released. 01:42:01:03 - 01:42:30:22 ALLISON KRUG That's why, you know, in Naperville, Illinois, way back when, they realized that it made sense to put, gym before in the zero hour before the kid's most difficult class. So if we know that challenge causes neuroplasticity, then we should be looking to challenge ourselves every day. Every day. Yeah. And selectively seek that out. Because then we're going to provide opportunities to train ourselves, to deal with difficulty, to deal with distress and cause our brains to be able to grow as a result. 01:42:30:22 - 01:42:50:14 ALLISON KRUG So I don't actually really know that giftedness is a thing. Being somebody who works in this area and has been a gifted education advocate for a long time and chair of a committee, I actually think that our identification is really not very good. It's group screeners. I totally agree with you. Agree? Oh yeah. The brightest people I know have not done well on the group screeners. 01:42:50:16 - 01:43:12:22 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Can I tell you a little experiment that I did? Yeah. When I was getting my doctorate in clinical psychology, I was working at a middle school and we the school that I was in had, like a high percentage of kids who were labeled as, as gifted because the parents were trying to get that label early. Right? For various reasons, self esteem accelerate their learning or so forth. 01:43:12:24 - 01:43:43:20 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN So they would be provided these measures, this measures of IQ like a whisk, why it things like that. And they would the kids and then most of them came from affluent backgrounds. It was an interesting middle school that I worked at because it was divided into like like the tracks, the one side were families of like physicians for the most part, who were then that, you know, the doctors were working at Lehigh Valley Hospital, which is that community there. 01:43:44:01 - 01:44:06:10 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And then there was a lower income community on the other side of the tracks that went to a different elementary school. So you had this disproportionate kids who got identified very early, like first, second grade, as gifted. They were exposed to early reading. They were exposed to a number of things. So they actually performed better on these measures of IQ. 01:44:06:15 - 01:44:38:04 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And then I was like, learning in graduate school at like IQ is relatively consistent. I didn't buy into the notion at the time that we can quantify intelligence, like on just like working memory and these other factors. So I had to practice on administering these screenings. So I opened it up to, parents of these gifted kids just to we weren't going to use the data, but to help me practice and just compare it to earlier periods of time when they last took that test. 01:44:38:04 - 01:45:01:03 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN So these were like eighth and ninth graders. I was administering this these test to, and we're comparing it to their scores when they were like in second and third grade. To get into the gifted program, you had to have an IQ over 130, you know, which I guess puts you in the top 2% intellectually. Every single kid that I screened their eye, their IQ dropped back into the average range. 01:45:01:05 - 01:45:24:00 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN So we had all these kids that were identified by that screening measure, and they were mostly the kids that were following the rules. They did really well in school. They were going to go be physicians, but we had all these kids who were creative, who challenged authority, who thought differently, who asked difficult questions, who made people uncomfortable and made teachers. 01:45:24:03 - 01:45:37:01 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN We would never think about evaluating them and putting them in a, gifted program, because how their presentation of giftedness wasn't valued in an environment that just valued that conformity. 01:45:37:06 - 01:45:48:12 ALLISON KRUG Oh, 100%. I could not agree with you more. So did you go in test? Did you? Did you find that they actually. But you would need a different test to pick it up. They're not going to pop on the traditional test, are they. 01:45:48:12 - 01:45:52:23 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN No. But when they can, when they can create a beautiful work of art. 01:45:52:24 - 01:45:53:19 ALLISON KRUG Yeah. 01:45:53:21 - 01:46:15:18 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Or they ask questions that the gifted kids don't ask, or they get the math answer right without following this test, but they don't know how they got it. It just made sense to them. They just can't articulate it. They can't follow the rules. But they got the math. Those were those kids. But how do you measure that? And I think we we limit our idea of what IQ actually is. 01:46:15:20 - 01:46:27:04 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN It's not a good it's not a good predictor. No. Of, what someone can bring in, what someone can do to create in this world outside of what is the established norm. 01:46:27:06 - 01:46:45:19 ALLISON KRUG We have a friend, a young Japanese student who's at University of Alabama right now, and he and I were sitting across our, kitchen table talking about this very topic about how to measure intelligence and, and what that even means and what's beyond intelligence. What else is there that we should be measuring? And we came up with like a three dimensional structure of multiple axes. 01:46:46:00 - 01:47:12:01 ALLISON KRUG And he was explaining mathematically what I was trying to describe. I can't recreate that now. And I don't have the scrap of paper. It's in my truck. But, imagine a sphere with multiple infinite axes and a distribution curve along all of them, right? A normal distribution curve along all of them. The group screeners are only one aspect of that, and all of the kids that you're describing have some divinely created capacity, infinite capacity. 01:47:12:03 - 01:47:35:09 ALLISON KRUG And we're not measuring that. And yet we're constructing schools around, you know, just one of those millions, infinite number of axes that we think we understand about creativity. And it's so unfortunate because those kids are, you know, funneled into the gifted programs and the others are not. And yet the most divergent, creative, intense people I know did not do well in the group screeners. 01:47:35:11 - 01:47:59:16 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN This is why I think I had such a reaction to Doctor Kristen Walsh during your debate, because she was the archetype in my head, right, of someone who has probably really strong working memory, who can hear something, can read something, and can remember it and then regurgitate it very quickly. And I was just hoping, you know, as I was watching that debate, let's get into nuance. 01:47:59:16 - 01:48:19:18 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Let's ask some critical questions. What's the value? And she would just her eyes would glaze over and she would find a study that we can't we don't have access to that. We don't know how it's set up. And she would just refer to like the best available evidence. Like this is what it shows us, you know, and it's always back to the deference to what that authority is. 01:48:19:20 - 01:48:44:15 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And it doesn't help the listener to make decisions. When you have two experts who have varying perspectives of actually what that data means, if you can't get into the details, the concerns, the possibilities, what's the opposite? Like what is the opposing side? And then how do you respond to what that opposing argument is? And to think critically or or just to step back and say, what if the whole paradigm is wrong? 01:48:44:17 - 01:49:05:07 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN If the whole entire but the whole paradigm is wrong, that a certain virus is going to predict this? You know, you get this, you get this bacteria, you get this virus, whatever this, then it predicts this. But then you're clearly talking about, well, that's not most people. So like, most people are going to have this HPV virus and not develop cancer. 01:49:05:13 - 01:49:24:20 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN So my next question okay, who are those people? Why is it happening. What's going on there. Right. And one point you said, well, the more sexual partners that you have, the more at risk. I said, okay, well why aren't we having that discussion. Right. Or smoking. Yeah. Or these other, all these other variables. Why is it go get the shot. 01:49:24:22 - 01:49:55:00 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN That has these consequences. Why aren't we talking about how to really live well and what all this means? Is life just inherently that better if you have a lot more sexual partners like, is like, should we be is this go back to the access to pornography and these other ideas that we've created, because I work with a lot of young men and young women who are born into that culture, and they're talking about an emptiness that exists with multiple sexual partners. 01:49:55:02 - 01:50:20:22 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN What's the impact then energetically, because, you know, things that are being discussed is like, are you absorbing the energy of a sexual partner, a very intimate act, spiritual, probably has so much meaning. It probably I think it almost definitely impacts us physically. I think there's good evidence of that. And you're talking about it in with the sexual partners, like passing on things to you. 01:50:20:24 - 01:50:42:12 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Do we need to exercise discernment in who we choose to be with sexually? And when you pull that out of a culture and you become as secular as we are now, we have all these consequences to that that are popping up in terms of like disease, health, mental health, and we don't even address them. It's like, well, you know, your kids obviously is going to have a lot of sexual partners, right? 01:50:42:18 - 01:50:48:01 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN They might not know it at 12 or 14, but that's just life. 01:50:48:03 - 01:51:16:03 ALLISON KRUG Yeah. You raise such good points there. I mean, obviously there's the biology, you know, just the sheer transfer of, you know, stuff between people and that has downstream effects. But what about what about our consciousness? What about that energy transfer and what about intimacy? And what about, you know, that connection between human beings? Why are we just dehumanizing or taking the spiritual element out of out of the sexual connection? 01:51:16:09 - 01:51:35:17 ALLISON KRUG Why are we doing that? I mean, it goes to what you were alluding to before the whole de population thing and, control. I don't tend to be. Maybe I'm optimistic. I think people are just not really thinking very much about what they're doing and their decisions, and they're kind of following a formula and they're operating out of fear. 01:51:35:20 - 01:51:58:23 ALLISON KRUG I don't I'm not at the point yet where I actually feel like there's like a, a pernicious sort of motivation. I just don't know if I, I just personally can't live that way. But I do think that the way we're, our culture is constructed right now is, is really not serving our young people at all by making, sex just such a, you know, thing that you can just do. 01:51:58:23 - 01:52:18:13 ALLISON KRUG Kind of like going to the gym or whatever, because that's not what it's about at all. It is meant for creation of life. Yeah, and it's meant for love and sacrificial love. It's not about you at all. It's not about your experience. It's about giving to the other person. And we don't really talk about that. Or do we? 01:52:18:13 - 01:52:34:12 ALLISON KRUG I don't know, I'm not really in those circles. You probably talk to the young people more than I do, but I don't think that that's the primary motivation. It's more about self, gratification, as far as I can tell in popular culture and what feels good for me and what's right for me. I mean, it's very much about me. 01:52:34:14 - 01:52:58:24 ALLISON KRUG Even when I hear, you know, people in relationship challenges, relationship difficulties. What I've found Roger in in our families experience, in our transformation as a family is, you know, it really requires an individual to think about unconditional love for the other person. It's not about me at all. And I have a struggle with the whole, like self-acceptance and self-love and self-compassion. 01:52:59:00 - 01:53:21:10 ALLISON KRUG There's some part of me that really resists that, because I think the way through to acceptance and love and unconditional love for self is unconditional love for other people, a focus on others. I feel like we have to get escape velocity from the orbit around self before we can actually love self. I don't know if that makes any sense at all. 01:53:21:12 - 01:53:50:12 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN It makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I was kind of connecting our conversation about the allure of comfort, the allure of quick pleasure, and how that is such a part of our of our current culture. You see it with the advent of all technologies, like a quick stimulation, right? Pornography, it's all these things. And when I think about, you know, the people who've been in front of me who are, you know, suffering the most. 01:53:50:12 - 01:54:08:00 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And in some of the I always say some of the worst suffering is it's people who live with a lot of regrets and shame and they look back at decisions they have made or, you know, relationships they've been in or behaviors they've acted in, and they have a hard time of letting that go. And it's certainly influencing their present moment. 01:54:08:00 - 01:54:54:00 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And there's, an inability to move forward. So they're stuck at a certain time in their life. And I think there's roots of disease there, too. When you talk about the the role of like trauma and, you know, stuck emotions on its impact on the body, I think there's like this developing research of the role of emotions in cancer, for example, but people make to, I think, sometimes make the worst mistakes in their lives when they're, seeking out immediate comfort, when they're seeking out immediate pleasure, when there's an impulsivity, when there's a lack of consciousness into things that you're talking about, which includes the person that they're interacting with, that person as a, 01:54:54:02 - 01:55:40:17 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN as a soul, someone that they, that they can feel their pain and empathy and compassion and all those things and that's one of the problems that I'm, you know, I'm facing with generation of young women. And I wrote an article this, probably like a year or two ago now called what the hell are what the hell is society doing adolescent girls and talking about the inherent conflict of what Instagram, social media, TikTok pornography is doing to the consciousness of the value of young girls to view themselves in terms of just a body, to, to to receive pleasure, to give pleasure, often to men and, like what likes mean on, on 01:55:40:17 - 01:56:16:24 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN an Instagram. That's why you see the more provocative social media posts or building social media brands and identities around your sexuality, you see the rise of OnlyFans and all these other aspects. So you're you're restricting their attention and they're limiting who their what their value is to pleasure that they could provide sexually, which devalues them and ultimately leads to profound emptiness, because it's you're never going to be able to achieve that love that you're craving and you're desiring based on that approach. 01:56:17:03 - 01:56:41:05 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And so you see this over and over again coming into centers like mine. You label yourself as depressed. You give yourself the label, that limited label we've provided in, in our society, you identify with the fear and anxiety that you're experiencing in life, but you're not. I mean, with the the emptiness, the loss of love. The living your life in a certain way. 01:56:41:11 - 01:57:02:02 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And it just giving you maybe some, you know, quick neurochemical boosts and then the downside of that, the emptiness that comes past. And so you go seek that instant pleasure again. It just feels like an addict over and over again trying to find the drug. You get to the point where you just need the drug to live. It doesn't even give you a high anymore, and you're sick when you don't have it. 01:57:02:04 - 01:57:27:17 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN And we don't speak enough about that spiritual emptiness and the decisions people are making about what popular culture is doing to them. Progress of popular culture breeds in the, in the public school system. It bleeds in the ideas of our of Hollywood and, and our mainstream media. And it's just absorbed in the collective consciousness. And it's something that we just don't have critical conversations about. 01:57:27:21 - 01:57:47:10 ALLISON KRUG And so true. I don't know, how to, you know, in our profession, we believe that, you know, both of us. I think it would be fair to say we believe that people, need to be empowered to find their own answers. That's the way through is to believe in the other humans innate capacity for finding their way through. 01:57:47:12 - 01:58:11:07 ALLISON KRUG But at the same time, we also need to provide the appropriate inputs, the appropriate awareness, right, to create, expand awareness, maybe around what's possible. And I do think that the spiritual conversation is vitally important because they're not going to find a way through unless there's a connection to something larger than themselves. And I think that, people can find that in a lot of ways. 01:58:11:09 - 01:58:37:11 ALLISON KRUG But divine love, was the way through for me. And, I, oddly enough, had to, I had to find it through a very secular practice, which is coaching. Professional coaching, because I was trapped in my own narratives and beliefs about myself and disconnection from self. But grew up with a very strong faith practice. So it's kind of interesting to me that you can have a very strong faith practice and still get hung up. 01:58:37:11 - 01:59:01:00 ALLISON KRUG You're still human, you can still have issues, you can still go through a lot of challenges in your in your family and in your life and in accepting yourself. And you can make a whole lot of bad decisions based on, you know, certain, constructs in your mind about what's possible and what isn't possible. And the way through that is to find a reconnection to divine love and to unconditional love. 01:59:01:02 - 01:59:21:00 ALLISON KRUG And then through that, again, you can find a way to accepting other people and being loving of other people and not making your own love for them conditional on they have to apologize. They have to take responsibly. They have to do this first because then we're externalizing again to other people. Like my own well-being is now contingent on someone else taking responsibility. 01:59:21:00 - 01:59:42:10 ALLISON KRUG Well, how how like, nip nip, am I really? I can't make anyone around me in my family do anything. I live with a lot of stubborn, interesting people. So that's what caused me to maybe look face to face in the mirror and realize that it was incumbent on me to find a way to transform myself in my own space, because I cannot make anybody do anything. 01:59:42:12 - 01:59:54:06 ALLISON KRUG You know, not weed whack nothing and not pick up a towel. Nothing. I mean, the trade offs in my family are impressive, you know, pick up that. Well, I'd rather make dinner five nights this week and pick up the towel. Oh, okay. 01:59:54:08 - 01:59:57:07 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Like there's an apparent power struggle that ensues. 01:59:57:09 - 02:00:12:04 ALLISON KRUG Right. Okay, so it's very clear I do not have the power here, but I do have power over myself. I do have choice. I'm the only person I can influence in the system of equations. But still I needed divine support to get there. 02:00:12:06 - 02:00:22:18 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Well said. How can people find you? You said you do. You're doing this coaching work now. How can people be exposed to your work? 02:00:22:20 - 02:00:27:23 ALLISON KRUG Probably the best places. Coach Alekum ally. 02:00:28:00 - 02:00:29:02 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Are you enjoying it? 02:00:29:04 - 02:00:56:07 ALLISON KRUG I love it, it's the most meaningful work. I was searching for my purpose, for a number of years, and, just out for walks with my husband and grappling. Grappling. And I think, you know, when our family went through a crisis, that's when it became clear to me that, there was a purpose beyond working in population based studies, which is epidemiology, to actually work one on one with people, especially now, given the fear culture that you've described is so important. 02:00:56:07 - 02:01:15:20 ALLISON KRUG And, just realizing that my desire to tightly control things was actually making things worse. You know, when you're riding a horse and all of that energy has to go somewhere if you're riding a, cantankerous, raunchy mayor, you do not want to hold tight on the reins because you're going to get bucked off. That energy is going to go up in a buck. 02:01:15:24 - 02:01:33:01 ALLISON KRUG You have to let go of the head, let her go, but get those feet moving. So any direction you pick the direction. And in that moment, you know, I felt like God was saying, you know, to me, hey, this is what you need to do with your son. You need to let his head go, and you need to just let his feet move, get those feet moving. 02:01:33:03 - 02:02:01:18 ALLISON KRUG And that's going to protect your relationship with him. And that that just allowed me to kind of see. Okay. Well all right I'm kind of done. So that's a that's a paradigm I can think about and grab on to in this moment of difficulty. So yeah, I love it. And I love, you know, the opportunity to simply be a vessel for, people finding ways to love each other again and create room for a special connection between human beings. 02:02:01:20 - 02:02:07:20 DR. ROGER MCFILLIN Allie Krug, I want to thank you for really a radically genuine conversation. 02:02:07:23 - 02:02:08:13 ALLISON KRUG Thanks, Roger.