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What Do We Do With Donald Trump? · Rethink Revive with David Leake

• 0:00
  Today, we're going to be talking about the new administration with President Trump, and specifically, our question is, what do we do with a President Trump, regardless as to what side of the political aisle you're on, as Christians, we have a lot to think about and discuss. How do we react? How do we handle the future? We discuss all this and more. So if you'd like to hear more, tune in. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Allison Park leadership podcast, where we discuss culture creating conversations, almost in our old tagline, culture conversations. Yeah, hey, we're glad you're here today. I'm one of your hosts. My name is Dave and my name is Jeff. We're so Jeff Leake, Dave leak we're both on staff at Allison Park Church.
• 0:36
  We're father and son, and we have these multi generational pastoral conversations that create culture or are dealing with culture, and we want to welcome you. We want to welcome you today. Yeah, and no new shout outs today. But as always, if you want to leave us a five star review on Apple podcasts, we will see your name there. And would love to give you a special call out just from us today. We're going to be talking about culture from a American perspective, because we are in the midst of a new presidency. Yeah, President 47 of the United States of America, Donald J Trump, took office couple of days ago, so we're a few days after the January 20 inauguration. And we talked a little bit about some political things last summer because we were in the election season, we thought we would come back to this today and ask the question, What? What do we do with a President Trump? Yeah, yeah, which is a safe way at least, to get the conversation started, because you will take that question one way or the other, depending upon your political point of view. But I think this is just a very good conversation to have about Christians view of governmental leaders, how we deal with political polarization, what we do when things happen that we do like?
• 1:53
  What do we do when things happen that we don't like? All of those conversations will kind of be in this mix.
• 1:59
  It is a this is such a broad topic, but I think it's a conversation point that a lot of people are discussing, yeah, and it matters for churches, you know? It matters for Christians?
• 2:10
  Yep, because you can respond in a lot of different ways to a lot of different things that are going to happen over the next four years. Yeah.
• 2:18
  And let's face it, there are people who are believers who when Donald Trump won the election in November, were ecstatic. It was the answer to prayer. It was the moment of great euphoria. It was a moment of great victory. It was a moment of expectation for the future and vision. And then there were also Christians who saw this as a you know, scary and you know, something to grieve. I know, I know there were some Christians who were who were really needing to talk through what their feelings were. After that, many people were both despondent and frustrated. And so you have here. So we here, we have followers of Jesus who are a part of this mix. And so that's why we asked the question, like we did, what do we do with President Trump? Because we want to now take a pastoral perspective on it. We want to take a biblical perspective on it. We want to take an empathetic perspective on it. We take a historical perspective on it and try to to navigate our way through moving forward?
• 3:24
  Yeah, not everybody's gonna like this, but the ultimately, the responsibility of Christians is to be unified as a body of believers, and it's to have the same approach, which I know that's never gonna happen among all nominal churches, but I'm saying as as a Christian movement. So Unity is different from uniformity, right? It's not that we all think the same thing, but we are all unified in that we represent a different kingdom. We represent the kingdom of God to this country, and we represent the mindset of worldview of Jesus. And we want to bring that to bear, regardless of who's in power, which party wins, and we want to make sure that we are, you know, our first allegiance is to the kingdom of God and to one another as a part of the family of God. Yeah, and this, so I was saying that though, because this is true, regardless as to whether you are you lean, you know, liberal or conservative, whether you're Democrat or Republican or libertarian or whatever else you are like, regardless as to what your political views are, or how we should handle the border, how we should handle foreign policy, how we should handle the economy, or dei or any of this other stuff. I think the responsibility of Christians is to have a Jesus perspective.
• 4:34
  Yeah. So we want to talk about, what is that Jesus perspective, and how should we react and live as both Christians, but also Americans, because, you know, if you are an American, you you're a citizen with the right to vote and right to participate in the process, yeah, and the right to try to enact change, if change is necessary, and all this stuff. So, so where do we start? That's, I don't even know where to start with this. It's so broad. I mean, ah, everybody know, if you're listening to this podcast, you already know why President Trump is so polarizing. Yeah, like nobody. We don't need to inform everybody. He said these things and did these things and made all these people angry, like everybody knows or why he's so loved, or, yeah, I made all these other people happy. I didn't finish my sentence there, but I've seen so many, I mean, Trump looking like Jesus posters. Honestly, I don't know that there's ever been a politician in my lifetime that is as loved as Donald Trump. I mean, the level, there was a great love for Ronald Reagan. In many places, there was a tremendous love for Barack Obama, I would say, kind of almost an awe and respect for Barack Obama. There was that same kind of level with Bill Clinton. I don't know Bush ever had that, least not my bush, yeah, but, but, but Donald Trump inspires passion, yeah, on both sides, rabid Rabbit. Rabbit passion on both sides. Yeah, he's Hitler or he's the Messiah, yeah, and I'm sure you've seen them. There are posters of both, right? Yes, legitimately, yeah. So what do we do with the President Trump?
• 6:11
  Yeah? Okay, so let's start in general. I think we could start and say whether there was a president Harris or President Trump, and previously, when there was a President Biden, our first responsibility is to want them to succeed, not necessarily succeed in their agenda, because that may or may not be something that aligns with a biblical worldview, but to succeed for this country, like to do things that are good for the well being of The nation that we're a part of, and in that we should pray for them. We should pray that they have wisdom and discernment and understanding so that they can lead well. This is part of what we're challenged to do by the apostle Paul, both in First Timothy chapter two and Romans chapter 13, that and I think First Peter talks about this. We should be praying for the kings and those in authorities that they would lead well, so that we could all lead peaceful and blessed lives right in and not be caught up in unnecessary war or strife or whatever it's in. First Timothy two. Just looking that up, yeah, do you want to read that for you? Go ahead. Where he says, This is First Timothy two, one. First of all, this is the Holman Christian Standard Bible. First of all, then I urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for everyone, for kings and all those who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good, and it pleases God, our Savior, who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth. So I think man a life of tranquil, a tranquil and quiet life and all godliness and dignity is maybe not the first reaction that everybody has no no but let's, let's just look at one thing that we would say, This is good.
• 7:55
  So within the last two weeks of time, there's a ceasefire between Israel and Gaza. Yeah, Biden claimed it was his doing.
• 8:04
  Trump claimed that it was his doing. Either way it's happened, either way, it's a good thing.
• 8:09
  Yeah, it's a good thing, right?
• 8:09
  So if that be, if that happened because Trump came into office and negotiated it ahead of time, or that happened because Biden's administration did, or maybe they both contributed to it, either way. Sure that leads to peaceful and quiet lives in a region that's been filled with turmoil for more than a year. So praise God for that. It's those kinds of things we we hope for, regardless of who's in office.
• 8:34
  Yeah, that good things happen in the world that are a benefit to everyone. Yeah. And so we pray for our leaders that way. Then I think after that, the next thing would be, is to look at our leaders with the proper perspective. So I don't know, I don't know this is unique to the recent generations or not, Dave, but there almost can be a messianic view of politicians like this president. If Kamala Harris wins the election, she will represent and there's a fill in the blank that sort of describes what she will bring into the world that will make the world reach a higher level.
• 9:15
  Or if Donald Trump wins, President Trump wins the election, he will bring into being the hopes and dreams of everyone and and so they're almost like a messianic view of presidential candidates. And I think that that we have to be really careful in putting our expectations that, because this is where you see you said earlier, there's this spectrum, either people see Donald Trump as the Savior, Messiah or as Hitler and and the truth is, he's neither, no, right, right, right? So both, both sides who represent Him as is Hitler or the Messiah are overstating the importance of a president. Who the president is. It matters, but it's. Not to be all and end all, and our hope is in another kingdom and a different Messiah and and so I think that's important. So we, we we can celebrate them, we can love them, we can be cheering for their success, but they aren't.
• 10:13
  They aren't to be all and end all. They're imperfect. Let's see. Let's Yeah, just just elaborate to say that he's the Messiah is putting way more on him than any human can ever, do you know, except for Jesus, when it comes back, which is not a human, I guess. But you know what I'm saying? And then Hitler is human. He's got him.
• 10:29
  Well, he was, yeah, is he still?
• 10:29
  No, he's not fully now, really, well, he's, he's in a resurrected human body, just like we will one day. Have absolutely, you almost preached heresy. There, Dave, no why? I guess fully God and fully man forever. I thought he was fully God and fully man when he was on the earth. And he's the first fruits of our humanity. I need to check my theology.
• 10:52
  That's first time hearing it like, yeah, absolutely, regardless. Um, and then to say that he's Hitler is a is a massive fear based projection of what he could become, which I understand. You know, regardless as to what political leader and what country we're talking about, there's always the potential for somebody in power to go really bad. I don't think people realized how bad Hitler was going to go before he went that bad, but I do think you're right. It's a like as Christians, we we need to make sure that we are properly thinking about things, not just totally reacting out of out of fear or, I guess the Messiah thing is not sure how far you want to go with that. So okay, well, I think, I think this comes from this context of there. There does so I have now been alive for, I don't know how many presidents exactly, but in my lifetime, I'm 60 years old, there have been so far, 28 years of Democratic presidents in my lifetime, and 32 years of Republican presidents, with Donald Trump being the 47th it'll when I turn 64 and the next election happens. If I live that long, Donald will have 36 years of Republican presidents and 20 years worth of of Democratic presidents, I would say this, no matter who the President has been over that my lifetime, none of them have made everything right and none of them have made everything wrong.
• 12:14
  They've all been four years that have been filled with a mixture of good and bad. They've made good decisions and bad decisions. There have been good things that have happened and bad things that have happened.
• 12:25
  And I'm sure at the end of this four years, not everything will be perfect and not everything will be destroyed. That's, that's the general rule of my lifetime, right? Okay, so, having said that, I think when we when we put messianic, prophetic attachments to it. We over expect what one human being can do sure to change the culture. What I also say is, in my lifetime, regardless of whether a Republican was elected or a Democrat was elected, this country has moved to the left politically. We are way less conservative as a culture than we were when I was born in 1964 so it's moving more and more to the left, regardless of who wins whatever election and the and I would say, with that becoming much and must less friendly to Christianity, sure, right? So whereas Christianity was the dominant religion in the 1960s when I was born, it's now perceived to be sort of, you know, almost passe by many people or harmful by some parts of the country. So the country has been progressively moving to the left over over time, regardless. And there is this deep desire amongst Christians to want to call the country back to the values that that predominantly Christian country have held over time. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally. And so there's almost this feeling like Trump is going to take us back to make America great again and conservative again, like it was in the years where I grew up. And I do think a lot of Trump's messaging indicates that that's his desire. Sure, so, but that still doesn't make him messianic in his in the way that we need to look at him and describe him, because, again, he's an imperfect human being and and we really don't know what, where the culture will head one way or the other, that that isn't really dependent on the on the president, that's really a lot of other factors.
• 14:27
  What we have said before is that probably there's a need for a spiritual renewal across the country, and that isn't happening in government as much as it happens in people's lives, in churches and in other spaces and then thought leaders movement as well, exactly. And most thought leaders aren't going towards, you know, conservative, but the hope is Trump will take us back, right? And the fear is Trump will take us back.
• 14:54
  Yeah, that's true, right? That's true towards all the not great stuff that was there.
• 14:59
  So, so I. A really interesting conversation with my mom. My mom's a Fox News watcher and and so she was talking about some of the things Trump was saying and doing, and we were driving in the car together. My mom's 83 and she said to me, do you think Donald Trump's a Christian? And I said, that's a really good question, mom. I said, What do you think? And she said, I don't know. And so before I give you the answer I gave her, let me just, let me just ask you that question, Dave, what would you be your view? Do you think Donald Trump's a Christian? No, definitely not. Oh, you don't think he is. Okay. So why would you say that? Well, if we're talking about Christian based on how one lives and not just what one believes, I don't think he's a Christian. Okay? I think I think a Christian, if all like, you know, to use the cliche, if all you are as a believer, doesn't mean you're actually a follower. Okay, can believe the right things without actually being a Christian?
• 15:48
  Yeah. So do I believe he believes in Jesus? Maybe, you know, do I believe so?
• 15:54
  So this is a hard one to judge, because no one can judge whether person is going to heaven.
• 15:59
  You just ask me, yeah, I'm just, I'm just guessing based on superficial things, Jesus would say you got to look at someone's fruit, right? And and so there's a lot of tone that he takes and attitudes that he's chosen behaviors in his past. What we don't know is if he's going to heaven or not, right? Like he, like you said, he may have faith in Christ and be saved, so to speak. Because you don't have to be perfect to be a Christian.
• 16:25
  Jesus has to be moving in the right direction. You may be following Jesus. You have to be so really, the question is, less, are you a Christian? It's more as he is he a follower of Christ? Is he? Is he attempting to be a disciple of Jesus at all? And if he is okay, well, there, there might be something privately, we don't know about where that that is taking place in his life, but if it's just from a superficial, from what I can tell my my guess would be probably, probably not.
• 16:51
  Yeah, what was your What was your thing? You said? So I said. I said, you know, Mom, I don't think that he is because to become a Christian, at some point you have to repent of your sin. That's a good point, and acknowledge Jesus as the only hope for your salvation. And I don't know that I've ever heard him verbalize that he has that he recognizes that he's a sinner and that he needs Jesus to be saved. I don't know that I've ever heard him talk about Jesus being the Son of God or him being raised from the dead, yeah? What I do think that he has is a great respect for God and a great respect for Jesus.
• 17:29
  So there's a lot of people in this world that I'll describe as God fearers. Like, they have a fear of God, yeah? And like, Okay, people I used to work with when I when I was working for a landscaping company, they foul mouthed, sleeping around, you know, drinking like crazy. But when they would swear in front of me, they'd be like, Oh, I'm sorry. I know you're going to the ministry. Like, I don't want to mess with God. Like, like, you know I go to church. I just want you to know I go into church on Christmas kind of a thing. Like they'd throw that out there, like they weren't really interested in pursuing the life of Jesus, but they had a respect for God. Yeah? They they so. And oftentimes God starts there with a person and brings them into a place of faith. Yeah. So Elon Musk is in that category. I just recently read a quote from Elon Musk said, I am not a Christian, but I would consider myself a cultural Christian. I think that the way of Jesus to turn the other cheek is the best way of living, yeah. So I would say Trump is a cultural Christian.
• 18:32
  Yes, yes. He, he, he likes to talk about, he likes to say Merry Christmas. And he, he likes the values of Judeo, Christian culture and and he, he probably believes in a lot of the Christian morals, even though he hasn't practiced them, right, right, right, like so he's, you know, gotten in trouble for sleeping with playboys, you know, centerfolds and things like that. Okay, but does he have a high respect for God? I think he does, and I think he loves Christians, and I think he loves to help Christians. So I think that that's that's part of that also is because they're helping his platform that, yeah, true, right? So he's a politician, right? Exactly, whether or not he's ever come to a place of repentance, put his faith in Jesus Christ as his personal Savior. There is one little episode they say they were saying, you know, you're the hope for this country. And he said, You know, I told them I'm not the hope for this country, but there is someone who is like and he said, That's the person, Jesus Christ. So he's actually said some things like that that you would say, All right, well, sure, if he's not a Christian, he may be very close to becoming one, yeah, but at some point in his journey, he would have to humble himself, repent of his sin, and acknowledge Jesus as a savior for us to really know that that's the case, yeah, by the way, as I always feel the need to do, because I think people typically assume which positions we. Have you know, I don't think any of this is reflecting our political positions. We're just discussing now as Christians we hold Okay, let's, let's talk about Joe Biden, then President.
• 20:08
  Biden, was he a Christian? Well, he was a professing Catholic.
• 20:12
  He, he took communion. He, for his whole political career, went to church. I don't know that based though, on some of his value system and the way that he presented himself, that Christianity was core to him, but I would put him in the god fear category too, and, and, and probably another cultural vice president, Harris, preaching in a church during the campaign and talking as a person who was raised in in a church worshiping, but I've never heard Kamala talk about repenting of her sin and giving her life to Jesus, either or even defining sin in a specific way.
• 20:47
  Yeah, exactly, right. So, so it's not, I'm not. I wasn't critiquing a Republican presidential candidate here and now, our president as in one way or another. I would say that was probably true of President Obama, President Bush, they all had some aspects of Christianity and church going as a part of their life, but I don't know that I ever heard them really profess Christ as their Savior.
• 21:12
  Yeah, and I guess this is a hope that we have a lot of believers, is that they want their president to be Christian. And I'm not sure that we've really ever had like, I don't think even Ronald Reagan was really Christian. He talked about it a lot. No, I don't know Jimmy Carter was. He was a professing Christian. Was Jimmy Carter president in 1976 1980 gotcha.
• 21:37
  Gotcha. He was a Sunday school teacher in the Southern Baptist Church. A lot of what people would say that some of his policies weren't aligned with biblical worldview, but he was at least the, probably the only professing Christian of my lifetime was Jimmy Carter.
• 21:49
  Got it. Yeah, I don't know that I've ever had, I don't think there's been any for my lifetime, right? Yeah.
• 21:54
  Well, it church goers, sure, probably cultural Christians, but whether or not they were profess professing Jesus followers. That's a real good thing. Is it important for for you to have a president who is a Christian? Never had one, so, I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I think that's another thing we can pray for, is that Donald Trump would come to a true awareness. So can we take a little rabbit trail? Sure, one of the things that's been very interesting about the last couple President presidential elections is the fact that there has been a lot of prophetic pronouncements about who the President would be. Yeah, and so a lot of people prophesied President Trump would win in 2016 a lot of them prophesied that He would win in 2020 and say he was going to have a second term. And then he didn't win. But then when he won in 2024 a lot of those prophetic people are saying, See, I was right. I was just off by four years.
• 22:51
  Yeah, or they stole the election. Yeah, right. There's but there was one prophetic voice, Kim Clement, who made a prophecy in 2007 and you can look this up online if you're listening to this. And he actually prop before President Trump was he said, he Kim. He said, Kim, yeah, Kim. Clement.
• 23:10
  He was from South Africa. He's since gone home to be with the Lord. Okay, and he prophesied, did you not know about this? Oh, he prophesied, in 2007 that that Trump would become the president of the United States and that he would serve two terms. Wow, this was before he was even considered. Like he had never said he wanted to be a candidate at that Yeah, right. No. It wasn't like there it had. There hadn't been a President Obama yet, right? And so, and he prophesied two terms, and he talked about, there'll be a man in the White House who gets on his knees before God and prays he won't be a Christian, he said, but he will acknowledge Jesus like something to that effect. And maybe, again, you could look it up. I should have the exact quote. It was interesting to me, because during this whole last election, I was curious that if he won, was this prophet who prophesied in 2007 and then passed away before any of this came to pass, was he? Was he on target? And apparently does, does that prophetic word that was given, is that a filter through which we see him moving forward, still doesn't make him the Messiah, still doesn't make him someone that we've seen visibly repent and sure profess Christ. But I guess when we pray for him, we can hope for his salvation, and, yeah, pray that he comes to a knowledge of the truth. It does seem like vice president Vance has a professing Christian belief. I think he's Catholic.
• 24:40
  I think he is a Christian based on what I was hearing you talk about, yeah, you know, I Okay, so, so what I find to be interesting is when we talk about, okay, so when we talk about Christians, and we're talking about just famous people in general, there's sort of this evaluation you go through, like, are they really? Are they a professing Christian? And where they are trying to be like Jesus and they because that that's really the only when you look at the parable of the sower and the four different kinds of seeds that are sown like it's their only really good seed, if they produce the kind of fruit we're talking about, you know. But I want to think it's this whole thing like, is, are they a Christian? Are they Christian?
• 25:20
  What I find interesting, though, is when you look at the scope of kings and rulers throughout history, especially in the Old Testament, you could see how God has His influence with them.
• 25:28
  Like, it's not like random and there's there's God, and he's doing his thing up here, and then there's kings, and if they're bad, God's always opposed to them. And if they're good, you know, God's blessing them. Sometimes bad kings are being used by God for specific purposes in the world. Or sometimes bad kings have a good moment and they repent. Like Ahab has a good moment in his journey, even though he was a bad king for most of the time. And so, so I don't think God gives up on bad kings. But even, like, even like, Nebuchadnezzar, yeah.
• 25:55
  Darius, Nebuchadnezzar, yeah.
• 25:55
  God, um, Cyrus, who ends up funding the whole completely ungodly men who were not in any way following Jehovah, yeah, right. But there was a prophecy about Cyrus, that he would be the one to send the resources.
• 26:07
  And he hears that, and he does, and the temples rebuilt, and right, the walls are rebuilt. So I guess that's what we have to hope for. Whoever the president happens to be, is that they will be, that God will have an effect on them, yeah, and that he will move them to do things that are good for the world, right, for the kingdom of God?
• 26:24
  Well, I think that's what Romans 13, is the perspective that Paul has on this. We've talked about this before, right? But just, I think this is how helpful framing, if we're asking, what do we do with it and this? So, just for context sake, the things we're saying now, where we would want God to reveal Himself to those who are in power that he would, that we would want him to show himself. God would show himself and interrupt them and give them, give them opportunities to do things that are good and that we pray for that their effect. That would be true whoever won, yeah, that'd be true of Putin as well, if we were, if we lived in Russia, yeah. You know, even though that's hard to imagine, like living under someone that is clearly doing things that are destructive, even in that situation, because that's where the Christians lived, under Nero, right? So which was worse than Putin? They still were supposed to have that perspective to pray for the leader, that somehow, in their leadership, something good would break through and and they would make good decisions, well, and even, I mean, whether or not this was good or bad, the Constantine, obviously, in the third century, you know, I would think that part of that was because of the prayers of Christians for the okay. But going back to Romans 13, it's Constantine, right? That was that, yeah, okay. Anyway, okay, Romans 13, everyone must submit to the governing authorities.
• 27:41
  For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God. Just stopping right there, ready?
• 27:48
  That's kind of wild, yeah? Like, I'm even just, I thought about this before, trying to imagine, like, because what Paul's saying isn't just, well, humans will naturally have authority because it makes for a polite civil society. And how could you function without one? But God has influenced he actually says those authorities from God, those that exist, are instituted by God. So there is a part of when somebody attains power that God is in some way instituting them, which is a little nuts to think about. So then, well, because God is in charge somehow, in His sovereignty of the affairs of the world, and he has enough foreknowledge to be able to strategically move pieces around to advance his cause, in spite of the wicked, evil nature of humanity. Yeah, right. And so the people that end up there.
• 28:39
  Don't end up there outside of God's sovereign abilities. They end up in the in the midst of his sovereign abilities. Yeah.
• 28:45
  So when, when there's a President Biden, we say, okay, he's the president. Now we accept that as God's sovereign part of God's sovereign plan. We need to pray now for the best that can come out of this. When President Trump ends up in the White House. We say the same thing. It doesn't really change depending on who the name is, right? It's, it's the same perspective. Keep reading, okay, so verse two. So then, and this, this is, this is a really good verse for Christians today, I think, not just in this four year term. We're just talking about Christians in the modern American era. So then the one who resists the authority is opposing God's command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves. And then he goes on to talk. I can read more. There's more about this.
• 29:28
  You want to keep going verse three, where you want to read, okay, for rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do it as good and you will have its approval for government is God's servant for your good, but if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not, because it does not carry this word, for no reason for government is God's servant, an Avenger that brings wrath on the one that does wrong.
• 29:50
  Therefore you must submit, not only because of wrath, but also because of your conscience. And for this reason, you pay taxes since the authorities or God's public servants continue. Really tending to these tasks, pay your obligations to everyone, tax, those you owe taxes to tolls, those you owe tolls, respect to those you all respect and honor, those you honor. I It's interesting, like, even, like even, like this, Christians should not in any way cheat on or avoid taxes. Yeah, right. That should have integrity. We should be honorable. And this is, this is something I think we've failed miserably at. Our failing miserably, not me. I mean, Christians in general, in our culture, is that we speak dishonorably too often about those that we disagree with.
• 30:33
  Yeah, so we should speak honorably about President Trump, President Biden, Vice President Harris, Vice President Vance.
• 30:40
  Vance, even when we disagree with them, you can speak prophetically to the situation and yet honorably. You can say, I think that's wrong, but um, without necessarily being slanderous or exaggerating or whatever. So having a mindset of honor and recognizing this all fits into God's sovereign plan is as a part of the story. Yeah?
• 31:02
  Well, it's like, it's like, isn't that? It's First Corinthians 13, where he says, Love is patient, love is kind, right? I mean, the way that we speak about people says it is not proud, it is not rude, it keeps no record of wrong.
• 31:13
  Yeah, you're always believing, always persevering, always hoping. And this is, this is the way Christians sort of respond to all political leaders in our life, rather than letting letting the culture be our voice and make us react out of fear and say things that are not becoming or not honorable. Okay, so, so let's, let's, let's move to a different topic. Sure go.
• 31:36
  Actually saw this post by Pastor choco de Jesus, who's going to be with us at our Ignite conference. And I loved how he put this so he had a picture of Donald Trump's inauguration, and he writes this on january 20, 2025, President Donald Trump was inaugurated as the 47th president of the United States in his inaugural address, President Trump emphasized a commitment to restoring common sense and governance and reaffirming traditional values.
• 32:06
  He highlighted that the official policy of his administration would recognize only two genders, male and female. He also expressed gratitude to God, acknowledging that his life and leadership are God guided by divine providence, good right.
• 32:21
  He pledged to protect religious freedoms. Wonderful, condemning behavior that undermines the foundational beliefs of people of faith, awesome. I 100% love that. As certain people celebrate this moment, we must see it as an opportunity to engage this governing culture with truth. The church has a divine mandate to proclaim the gospel and to be salt and light in a world that desperately needs both spiritual and moral clarity. As believers, our mandate is secure regardless of political decrees or cultural shifts. Our calling comes from God and it remains steadfast in every season and or every administration. That's basically what we just talked about right additionally. Now I love this.
• 33:02
  He says, as the deportation of undocumented immigrants continues, let us remember these individuals should be treated with love and care. So now what, what choco has kind of done here is he said, I celebrate President Trump. I celebrate what he said in his speech. I'm glad he's trying to protect religious freedoms. I'm glad that he acknowledged God all this is good. Now, as the deportations happen, I want to prophesy a little and say, be careful. Remember, these are people. He says, not every undocumented person is a criminal. The majority are simply seeking a better life for themselves and their families. I urge that deportations, if carried out, be done in a humane and fair manner. Scripture calls us to love and defend the marginalized and the poor, trusting that God is working on their behalf. As believers, let us not be driven by fear, but by faith, standing committed to speaking truth to power and advocating for justice and compassion. This is a great balance. It is. Now. There's more in this post. He says scripture reminds us of our duty to intercede for our leaders.
• 34:05
  And then he quotes First Timothy, chapter two, pray for our leaders, asking God to grant them wisdom, humility and discernment. Let's remain faithful to the church's mission, engaging with culture, to stand for truth, justice and to extend grace to those in need. So he's basically saying, I, like a lot of the things he's saying, he's he's aimed in a good direction. I'm cheering for his success. I pray that he does things well when he steps outside of the way I think we should be acting. I'm gonna speak up. Sure. I think that's actually how we should approach every administration. I agree.
• 34:37
  Yeah, like the things that are good, this is good things that aren't, you know, to the last administration, we could say, we could have said things like, Hey, this is really great that you're trying to be inclusive, and you want to uplift the poor, and you care about people, but you know where you're, where you're blurring the lines on on sexuality and biblical values, like we. Have to speak up here, because that's, that's, that's not what the Scripture teaches.
• 35:01
  I think, I think there has to be this approach with every administration, not to, you know, be so captured by one particular person or party that you lose your prophetic voice to speak when things aren't right, yeah, or, let's, you could say prophetic voice, or we could just say, lose our faithfulness or allegiance to Jesus above a party. I think it's very easy to equate whether you're a democrat or republican or in the middle, to equate your values and be like, well, they represent these things. So they're there for you know, this is good for our world. This is good for our you know, even for churches. And then to equate the other part of all the bad things they can you can blind yourself to the bad and only see the good, and then blind yourself to the good only to the bad, as opposed to sort of standing in the middle, because, yeah, in general, with every administration, it's the middle.
• 35:56
  I think that's a misnomer, all right, I think it's standing to the side, sure? Probably true, right? It's or to stand, it's to stand above in a way, or it's to speak from another realm, right?
• 36:07
  Because it really isn't the middle. I don't think the truth is in the middle. I think the truth is in a different place.
• 36:15
  It's the kingdom of heaven that brings truth to the earth, because you're an ambassador of a different nation, yeah? So sure. It's like, well, we're trying to split that, this down the middle between the two parties. I actually think that it's, it's where you are in agreement with one particular party's platform.
• 36:31
  100% be in agreement 100% you shouldn't back off from that at all, assuming it's in line of what the Bible teaches. Yeah, it has a kingdom world view.
• 36:38
  It's 100% right, right. Stand 100% with Yes. Don't go to the middle. Yes. Don't go to the middle on that one, right, right, right. Where there's a tension between two. You may negotiate in the middle, but there's probably a biblical worldview that speaks to both situations and that. So I don't think it's the middle. I think it's that we're not captured by either side, because we belong to a third side, yeah, that is speaking into both situations, yes, and that's because, because I always felt like I'm not really in the middle. I don't feel like I belong to either one completely, I but I feel like, I feel like I can see the flaws in both and the positives in both.
• 37:14
  And you know, where, where, you start to see things that make you afraid is, is where you where you have to sort of manage your own emotions there. That's one thing that I think we should talk about, Dave, is that a lot of people, if Kamala had won, a lot of people had been panicked when Trump won. A lot of people are panicked. So there, there are, there are a group of people right now that are very afraid and very upset, and so what would you say to them? Actually had a person during this fasting and prayer season, they sent me that prayer request. I'm glad President Trump won. I'm a Trump supporter, but I'm praying for everybody who's afraid because Trump won, yeah, and I'm asking God to give them grace and peace during the season, because I know it's not easy for them.
• 38:00
  That was very mature. So what would you say to them, Dave, to those that are afraid right now because of the administration, I would say, I would say that I think the values that they are afraid are in jeopardy because of the current administration. I think they could continue to pray for God's will for them, like you mentioned, the deportations and the concern of people being mistreated, or, you know, yeah, just just generally overlooked or not treated well, like, just as one of the examples, I think praying for those people. I think having, I do believe what Pastor choco talked about, how they're a value to God. That God, I mean, all of them are valuable, but I think the way that we treat them as Americans means something. I do think it's a huge thing. So I think like standing for for truth and continuing to pray for those things is important. I think though, just declaring the promises that you know, that God is in control, that no matter what's happening, like that, even whether it's good or bad that, like we serve a God who's bigger than this, I think, for people that are in fear, finding ways to partner with Christians in general, whether or not they're on the same side of the political aisle, like finding ways to unify, strengthening the church in general. And so I would say for people that tend to be Republicans, if it would have flipped. And you know, President Harris was the president. Now, I think, like it would always be our duty to come together, to lock arms as Christians, as the church, to be in unity, to speak truth for these same things. So you find strength in your spiritual community or church.
• 39:37
  You find confidence in the Word of God. Yeah, what you said, you find hope in the fact that you can raise your voice and speak up for things you don't agree with, and work and work for the positive. I would just say too historically. So again, because I've lived life for a long time, it's not to say that things couldn't go really, really bad or become really, really great.
• 39:59
  Sure. It's just that, for the most part, regardless of who's in the White House, not everything's perfect and not everything's horrible. Like, of course, I didn't live through World War Two in the Holocaust era, and I didn't experience the great depression we had. Did hit the pandemic? Okay, that that was not easy to listen great, but, but, you know, I think we over emphasize what happens in the world because of who's in the White House? Sure, I think it, that it because of the news and the constant push that it almost becomes elevated to this level of importance. So much happens locally? Yeah, I agree.
• 40:33
  So much happens in your community, and the people that are leaders in your community, and the people that you do life with. So that stuff is happening in the White House, I get it, but, but you can find peace in the place where you live and making things better where you are, yeah, and, and so.
• 40:48
  So to your point, before you jump off this, we've mentioned this book before, but, but when you read factfulness by Hans Rosling, yes, it's also just like, well, thing like, he talks about how things can be getting better, but not good enough yet.
• 41:01
  And what tends to happen with the news cycles is, is like, they actually, I mean, they just, it's easy to prove they make so much money off of fear mongering. So if your political party lost, then it's gonna be like, Look how every single thing is horrible. It's Hitler, and then, you know, and Elon Musk is Hitler and, and this must be a secret thing, and they're, you know. And I'm not saying that every accusation is false or that everything is good, but it's like, I think we have to realize, like, feed the conspiracy. Yes, not everything.
• 41:36
  Like, like, the stuff that you hear on social media or in the news is always going to amplify it, because that's what makes the money. Actually, most Americans are more victimized by fear mongering and news than they are by politicians. Yeah?
• 41:49
  Like, I guess it depends on the issue, but like, the media has an active investment, a in keeping you what do you call conflict of interest? Yeah, and not actually spreading a balanced truth of what's really happening, because that actually decreases engagement. You're less likely to buy newspapers or click on ads or watch programs, yeah. And so I think that's probably like things are overblown, and every administration because they need to be overblown for for the media to make the money they make. Yeah. So, so if you're afraid, put your confidence in God in His Word.
• 42:22
  Realize that life is bigger than the White House. Work for change locally. Raise your voice when you need to. Raise your voice.
• 42:30
  Find, find significance in community. All those things if you if you're thrilled beyond belief that Donald Trump is the president of the United States.
• 42:41
  What should we say to that group of people? Here's what I would say. So there was this game between Ohio State and Michigan College football, and Ohio State was way favored because they were better this year, and they've been being beaten by Michigan every year for the last five or six Michigan won unexpectedly, and they tried to take their flag and planted in the center of Ohio State's field, and there was a brawl that broke out. I would say like this, if you are a thrilled Trump supporter, don't be arrogant. Be sensitive. Not everybody thinks like you do. Be aware. Don't plant your flag on the opponent's field. You don't have to constantly compare Trump to Biden. Look how great Trump is. Look how bad Biden is. Like, be humble and and don't lose your attitude over the victory.
• 43:31
  I also think it's just, it's important to recognize that, that there are potentially bad things that can come out of the administration. Yeah, like it's, it's, it's just, I think sometimes it's like, your administration wins, and you're just like, it's great and all this. And then you, you're like, you close your eyes to the stuff that isn't Yeah. Or you're like, ah, there. That's just these people that are saying that kind of thing. But it's like, yeah, but it might really not fully be like that. And just because you're not experiencing the pain that makes it real to you doesn't mean it's not real.
• 44:02
  Yeah? And we should be sensitive to pain in general as Christians, so I think it's everything you said. And but for those of who are happy that he won, we should still be working on the local level for change, because most things happen locally. Yeah, right. So, so don't think, oh, all the problems are solved. We have a Republican in the White House.
• 44:19
  We're now moving back to the local values and worldview, it's going to be all perfect, and everything's going to be great, because ultimately, nothing changes unless we change, yeah, and we, we are still in great need of a revival in our country, absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, the election doesn't, doesn't, all of a sudden, make the world a Christian place.
• 44:41
  Yeah, so, so we we still have to root into things that bring genuine spiritual chains across the board. I don't know that we've handled this perfectly, Dave, but I guess it's kind of a Columbus clumsy conversation, and in some ways, about a happening that's recent to us, where we're trying to bring that that but. Don't know, you could say clumsy, but there's if we're talking about, could is anybody that's going to listen to this be upset about how we have maybe, but this, this is just the conversation that we have to have as Americans. And a new inauguration with the with an administration like this, I think, I think we're saying, basically, guard your mouth with honor, fight with Unity, choose not to be offended about, you know, what you can like, like, you know, what's the you know, I do have some hopes. I, I'll tell you, maybe these are unfounded hopes. But I do have some hopes. I, I feel in some ways, like maybe the level of polarization is dropping slightly. I agree with you. Is that true? I think so. It it, it feels like cancel culture is not as intense, yeah. I here's what I think. I think that there have been extremes on both sides, and people are tired of it, and there's a lot of people that tend to be a little more in the middle, and a lot of things I'm not I agree with what you said, as far as the outside perspective, yeah, but just even politically, yeah, okay, okay, I'm exhausted. Calm down. Like it's not ending. You told us it was ending. You know, the world was ending 15 times. You can only say he's the Messiah, he's Hitler so many times before people say, like, I don't think that guy wasn't Hitler. That guy wasn't Hitler, yeah. And it's just like, okay, like, like, let's I think that there's still inflamed extremes, but I do think that that there is some level of rationality, of to a little more normalcy. Is that possible? I'm a little afraid to project that yet, but I do think even though what normalcy means, but it just didn't feel this polarized in the in the 90s, in the 2000s it did. It was amping in that direction, but it didn't feel like ever since 2020 it's been, oh, well, maybe going back, it's probably, maybe it's before that.
• 46:51
  It was 2016 with the Trump election. That was, that was probably when it first blew up.
• 46:54
  Like, I guess it all depends on what Trump does and how he talks, yeah, and if he leads well and he tones down the rhetoric that can come across so strident to some people, maybe he aids.
• 47:12
  Maybe that's what we should be praying for, is that God would help him to lead in a tempered, wise fashion, you know, so so as to not inflame the polarization, which seems to be diminishing to some degree.
• 47:25
  What I see too is it just, it seems like the move of God that's happening across churches too is a sign of I think so. I think a lot of churches are focused on what it means to be healthy follower of Jesus, on discipleship, on getting back to the pure gospel, on if, if we're, if we're being sensitive to seekers, we're not watering down. We're saying still, like, there seems to be movements towards, like, getting back to purity and getting back towards following Jesus with all that we have. And I think that maybe that, like, if you sort of all of the polarization in the world, shaking and political turmoil and Pandemic issues purified the church from some of its superficiality, and has brought us back to a place where we are on a more stable place, which then allows us to contribute to society in a more stable way.
• 48:11
  And I wonder if God isn't shifting some things in our country in general. Okay, I'm not saying based on candidates or administrations. But I just mean, above all of that, and the way that we kind of see in Romans 13, wow, like, that's that's at least very hopeful and praying for, and is that, is that we're man, I just what I, what I'm believing for, is that we're on the verge of another great move of God. Well, you know, do you feel that as well?
• 48:38
  Or I long for that. I want that to be true. I don't know that's what I'm fasting and praying for right now. So wouldn't that be awesome? That's what I feel like. I have faith for that, that we're on, we're about to see God do something that will be a generational, you know, generational moment, you know, maybe even like a another great awakening, where we see just revival across our nation.
• 49:05
  But yeah, absolutely I God is in this no doubt. You know what I'm saying? God, God. Over the last number of years even, I'm not just saying in this new era, just to be clear, because I don't, I don't think I'm a real partisan person with this I I do find myself probably a little more in the middle of a lot of things, even if I'm you even if I'm you know what I'm saying, being a different place, but, but I just sense that God, God is in this that God is going to direct things I and I believe we I believe as the church, not only do we have to be unified and guarding our mouth is honor, but we need to be people of faith that are believing for for better things, that are ready to boldly preach the gospel, that are ready for a new strong era of the church. So yeah, that's what my hope is for. Yeah, well, that's good. I'm receiving that. I was just thinking about what you're saying, Dave, and I I'm glad to hear someone from your generation saying that, that I'm hopeful for a move of God and for our own awakening.
• 49:56
  And I sense this, and I'm also glad. Hear you say what I was sensing, which is, it feels a little less polar, polarized than it was. I think it is. I even just, I'm not on social media. I deleted all that a couple years ago. My wife is and she's just like, like, you can get into, like, a certain part of Tiktok or Instagram that you it's like an echo chamber. But a lot of what she's seeing is, like, a lot of people are sick of this. Like there's crazy polarized people, and you could find their sound bites, but they don't have the same influence. Where it's like everybody believes this and everybody believes this, and you're on one side, I think, I think there's more of an acceptance. So here we are. We're at the beginning of 2025, and the overall mood, we would say, is hopeful. We are hopeful and we're hungry for God to move.
• 50:41
  Well, no doubt. And yet we're also vigilant, because we don't want to let anything that takes us in the wrong direction go without notice or without voice.
• 50:53
  But we're also just, we're just standing and saying, Okay, God, do something great again in our situation. Absolutely, we need you to move and bring us together, bring bring people back to you and help us to see the kind of world that you want us to to live into. That's, you know, you talked a lot about speaking prophetically into situations. To speak prophetically, you need a word first to speak from Yeah, that's what you're speaking here's here's what the Lord is going to do, or what he's saying. I think that that's what churches are are needing right now, is a real sense of what are we prophetically speaking into, what's the Lord doing, and what are we believing for, and what are we hoping for? I do think it's I do think there's a hopefulness and an eagerness, but I think what the next thing is now is, what are we prophesying into? What is God?
• 51:43
  What's the era God's bringing us into? You know what I'm so it's wild. If you look back 100 years, Dave, there is this, these parallel moments. So in in the 19 teens, the 17, 1819, there was World War One, where all these people died, and there was the Spanish flu pandemic, right? And it felt like the whole world was coming to an end to a lot of people who were living at that time. And then came the Roaring 20s, and the 20s came right after that, and they were a time of great economic prosperity. And don't project that the Great Depression, yeah. Well, so that's the thing.
• 52:20
  Like, every season you're in is temporary, sure, right? Then came the Great Depression, then came World War Two, yeah? Like so and Hitler, then actually did show up, right? So, so whatever we're living in today is temp, a temporary season. Yeah, we are only stewards over the moment that we've been given. I don't have that many more presidents to see elected before I go home to be with Jesus. I'm six years old. You got, well, I do, but I mean, I probably have seen more presidents than I'm gonna see probably, right? Okay, so, yeah, definitely, yeah. So unless you're 120 right?
• 52:51
  So whatever, whatever like, I'm a steward of this moment. I was a steward of the last 510, years. Yeah. And even if it is less polarizing, and there is a move of God. We realize every season has a length to it, and after that can come something really great or really bad, yeah, and we're supposed to live in the moment that we're in and steward it well, but to speak into the world so that the next season becomes even better than this one, yeah? And so yeah. But I am hopeful. I am hopeful maybe we're starting to see some positive changes in the world that that that could affect not just the direction of our country and the culture. Maybe it's better to say, like the direction of our culture, sure, but then also the way that God is working in the church. I think overriding great administrations is a strong church like, I think, regardless of the administration, if we see a strong church that pursues purity and holiness and the power of God, but also is winning people, people to Jesus and is compassionate for those that were supposed to be compassionate for good, a strong church influences culture, I think a really good word, Dave, actually, more than the administration would. Yeah, you know. And I think actually, a strong church can win high level politicians to Jesus, where they're not cultural Christians now, but they're real disciples of Jesus that are in power. I mean, good. So that's, that's what I, I think, regardless of what you do here. So I think I understand part of what you're saying too, is a lot of these cultural podcasters, the Joe Rogan, the Jordan Petersons, the all these guys that have been in this conversation, a lot of them are coming to places where they're talking about, you know, Jesus is Joe Rogan there? I don't think he's there, but he's considering it. I've heard him talk about it. Like, a few years ago, he was like, I don't know any religious people that aren't idiots kind of a thing? Yeah, no.
• 54:42
  I mean, you do hear, you do hear people having conversations about faith?
• 54:46
  Sure. Well, Jordan Peterson is fully there. I'm not sure that he's I actually heard recently, he said they asked him, Do you believe Jesus is God? And he him to God for a minute, and then he said, Yes, Wow, that's crazy, because he often talks about it from a way that feels humanist to me. Okay, like he everything is an allegory or an analogy for the human condition.
• 55:04
  Well, I didn't catch the rest of the sentence. Maybe he qualified it after that. But you do see certain prominent people in the world that are having epiphanies say, Yeah, to say, I think, I think there's something to this, and that's really encouraging, yeah, well as well as, as well as, like, we did this podcast recently about Philip pastor Mitchell. Mitchell, I'm sorry, wow, I just saw some Philip Anthony Mitchell, thank you. It appears like his church is in serious revival. Yeah, I'm embarrassed. That is not his name wrong, but yeah, it's also crazy. And, you know, just like other, I've seen other movements over the last couple years that way. So, yeah, I, yeah.
• 55:45
  I, I think, I think we have to take a position of of great hope for maybe we're on the precipice of something, you know, legendary, that God's gonna do.
• 55:53
  I mean, you saw your, you saw some of that in the late 90s, but it's been a little while since we've been there, and that's, that's, I believe God wants to do that. I saw some of it in the 70s. Yeah, the Jesus revolution, the charismatic movement, the era that I grew up in, was a time of people turning to God in droves. So we're about do now, right? You'd say, wouldn't it be awesome? We're about do it's been about 30 years since the last one, so I think, I just think we need to push for that and believe for that, have faith for that. Yeah, amen. So all right, well, that's probably as far as we're going to go. Anything else you want to add or close on? No Go for it.
• 56:28
  Well, we appreciate you being a part of this as always, and regardless as to what your viewpoints are on the the politics of America, we would just say, you know, we hope you stand with us and believing for a United Church and for an era that God's gonna bring in of restoration of things that are broken. So you know, one of the ways we would just love to ask for you to partner with us is if you can help us make this a little bit more known by reviewing this with a five serve you on whatever podcast platform you're on, or you can like and like and subscribe on YouTube, share this with other people.
• 57:01
  All that really goes a long way just towards helping us to spread the word. So we would appreciate your help with that, if you wouldn't mind. But in general, thanks again for joining us. We'll see you guys again next time you.