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Turning Point Ep 9: Shame..... The Moment I Could Add Value · Murders to Music: Crime Scene to Music Scene (Streamline Events and Entertainment)

• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Murders to Music Podcast.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Aaron, I'm your host, and thank you so much for coming back for another week.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: The very first thing that I have to do is ask for some forgiveness.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: You see, this last week I updated my Apple MacBook, and when I did, it messed with all the settings.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't until I was listening back to this episode in post-production that I realized there's a strange echo that comes and goes throughout the podcast.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Now, audio tracks are super important because it can turn people off and they get tired of listening and they just want to, you know, quit the episode and whatever.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: I would just ask you stick with this episode.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: I apologize, it's not that bad.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: And when you do hear us echo, just pretend you're listening to us in a stadium.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a stadium event, right?
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it's uh it makes it feel special that way.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's a feature.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, I apologize and I promise I will get it fixed before the next interview.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: So on the turning point series, this is going to be episode number nine of the turning point series, which is a ten-point series where we talk about things in life where you hit your low spot, or maybe things aren't aligning correctly, and you feel like maybe there's no way out.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's a pit of darkness, maybe a vast chasm in your life, and then you find a way out.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: You look at it through a different filter, different angle, different lens, and all of a sudden there's a turning point where you feel like you can add value to this world again.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: On today's show, we're going to talk to a gentleman named Ryan McDonald.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: And Ryan McDonald is a local pastor here in the Vancouver, Washington, Portland, Oregon area, but he's going to tell you a story about growing up where he couldn't read, completely dislikes it, felt like he had no worth.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I I want you to listen to this story in such a way where his story is he couldn't read, felt like he had no worth and didn't have any value, couldn't contribute to this world up until the fact that he was early twenties.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: But how many adults listening to this right now, how many people listening to this show right now feel like they don't contribute to relationships, their friendships, their job, they're stuck in a pattern, there's no way out.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you are in your dark chasm and you don't even recognize it.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, listen into Ryan's story.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: He's gonna turn this around, and I just I just want you to hear it, right?
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Listen to his story and his details, but apply it to maybe your own world or maybe your kids' world or your spouse's world, the people you know close enough to you.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: With that being said, let's chat with Ryan.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Ryan, thank you so much for being on the show.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks for having me on.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: This is uh this is a really fun podcast.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: My dad was a police officer uh his whole career, and he did a lot of different work.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: He um he was on patrol, obviously, worked his way up, but then he was also alcohol beverage control, so he did stings with young adults, uh asking adults to buy them alcohol.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: He was a school resource officer, he was a crisis negotiator uh when people were you know a threat to others or self-harmed.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: So super cool what you're doing here.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'm also a musician, I'm a drummer, I love music, so kind of speaking my language with this whole podcast.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome, man.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, where was your dad a cop at?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Santa Rosa, uh in the Bay Area in California, uh the northmost city in the Bay Area.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's way cool, dude.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm also a drummer, also a musician.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, all that.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: So it's way cool.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: We got a lot in common.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: I can't wait to actually get to spend some time together.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: So hey, tell me, tell me your story.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh Stacy, my wife, uh there at the church, she was telling, she heard your story, and she's thought it'd be perfect for the show.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me what you got going on, man.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so when I was growing up, um I had a lot of learning challenges.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: And um back back when I was in school in the 90s, I don't think parents were aware, and there wasn't as much conversation about helping bring supports for kids in school.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: There wasn't just a lot of support in the school system for kids who are struggling.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so thankful for where we've progressed in our kind of academic support for kids and all types of learning patterns and styles.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but back in the 90s, it was kind of like you just went to school and you just needed to keep up.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I just got lost.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I switched schools a couple times, and particularly around like math and reading.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: I just felt like I kept getting left behind.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I remember going to like Sullivan Learning Center in fourth grade, and I got tested for just my reading and comprehension because my parents were like, all right, how do we find this?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Some help for for this kid.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I was diagnosed with like a processing disorder and like flagged for dyslexia, and uh I don't remember much happening after that.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm sure my parents are like, Are you kidding me?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: We did X, Y, and Z.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so, um, but in my my experience, it was kind of like what got the labels, realized there were some difficulties, and then there the school system just like didn't have a lot of support.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and so I just vividly remember being way behind my peers in academics, um, with not enough behind to have like specialized education, but just enough behind to where like I didn't feel like I fit in.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: I had so much shame.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: I hated school.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Back to the drummer thing.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of found my place in high school in a rock band that I started and we tour, and I um I had a minivan, so I had all the gear, and me and my buds would just load in my minivan and we drive from like really crappy gig to really crappy gig at these terrible venues.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was so much fun.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was a basketball player, and I would just find all my identity in basketball.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I I didn't have language for it at the time, but I was running from school.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: I was running from study, I was running from homework.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: And um I really remember when this kind of like catalyzed for me.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: It was my freshman year in English class, and my English teacher would have us stand up and read a page out of a book out loud, and you just go one by one through the rows.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: And when I knew this practice, this exercise was coming up, I would just start to sweat, I start to shake, like anxiety full on, would just grip me.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it would be my turn to stand up and like my hands would be shaking, and I would try to read.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I already was way behind in reading.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then you add in just what happens in my response system with anxiety, and I could barely get through one sentence without stumbling over pretty basic words.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: And my teacher just like had me power through and had me read through the entire page.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I just remember students snickering, they'd whisper things under their breath, they'd write notes about how dumb I was and slip them in my locker, in my backpack.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it just really brought so much shame.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like I just felt like I didn't fit in, I didn't have a place, I didn't have language to articulate how I was feeling.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't talk to my parents about it, didn't talk to my friends about it, just had to carry it like silently and act like these comments weren't affecting me.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: And when in reality, I didn't realize how much they were shaping my self-perspective, my ability, my agency to like go after a goal, accomplish a vision, anything was just completely blunted by the fact that I was so far behind my peers and I didn't fit in.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: And like I really thought I was dumb.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: I really thought that I couldn't contribute anything academically.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so my whole high school, I didn't really dream about like what my life could be like.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't really see myself going to college.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like I just kind of got through and um relationally, I had a great experience.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: I had good friends and so much fun experiences and loved being in the band.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was really involved in my church.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: I had leaders who were investing in me, besides my parents, speaking value over me.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I really think those people kind of salvaged any sort of hope I had for having like a productive, effective life.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I just like totally written off academics.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: And by the time I graduated high school, I had a 2.0 uh or a 1.9, I can't remember.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: I had many D's, uh, several Fs on my report card for the five four years I was in high school.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think I tested out at like an eighth grade or seventh grade reading level from high school, and I just kind of those numbers like were solidified as identity statements in my mind negatively.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: So then when I did graduate uh high school, my parents kind of really pushed me, almost forced me to go to college.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I just did a lot of partying.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: I uh failed and dropped out of a handful of classes at the community college I was at in Santa Rosa, California.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I just couldn't get any traction.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: I changed my major four times just at the community college.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm gonna be a video editor, I'm gonna go into business management.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: I was just like grappling for any sort of vision for a future when it came to academics and building up a career.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I just, I was just stuck and um I kind of felt stuck for a long time.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, what you're describing, I think that there's a lot of kids going.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: I know you were talking to the youth group the other night, and there's a lot of kids out there that are probably still feeling the same way, but I don't think this should be isolated to kids.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, in the adult world, there's adults that are feeling this way today.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: There's people listening to this podcast right now that go to work every day and don't fit in for whatever reason, and there's some hurt habit or hang up or something going on where they're embarrassed to talk about it, you know.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I you and I can speak as men.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think as men, we walk into a room and start telling all of our weaknesses.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's just not what we do.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um so there's people out there listening to this.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: So what kind of what was the next steps?
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: What happened?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: How did you get over it?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: Where you left off, it it and I wrote these notes down.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like you were drowning in a world trying to fit in.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: You were out on this open ocean, drowning, looking for some kind of lifeboat, some kind of rescue where you found a niche, a place to fit in, and somewhere where you could contribute, uh, where you feel like you're a contributor, you know.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um tell tell me what happened next, man.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that's drowning's a great, a great way to say it.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just kind of aimless.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I think well-meaning adults, um, you know, I've I've worked with teenagers in kind of a mentorship role for years now.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think one thing well-meaning adults need to be aware of is just how much pressure we're putting on high school students to know like the entire arc of their story in their path by the time they graduate.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: And really, because applying for colleges and stuff, it's like your junior year.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: There is this direct or unspoken um feeling that like I need to have my whole life trajectory worked out.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: I need to know where I'm gonna go to college, I need to know what my major is gonna be, like what my vision for my life is.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: And we're talking about 16 and 17 year olds, you know?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: And kids are just kind of delayed in their maturity in general right now.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're getting their driver's licenses um significantly later.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: They're dating and having serious relationships significantly later.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: We're already in a delayed period of prolonged adolescence, and then you slap on top of that thing, like intense academic pressure to have your life figured out.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I've known countless high schoolers that just feel the same way I feel, even if they didn't have the dyslexia and the reading and the academic challenges I have, they just feel immense pressure and out of place.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that lingers and could carry on through adulthood because those are formational things.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me, um really what it was was just like feeling hollow and empty, just partying and not taking school very seriously.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: It was only about two years of doing that before I realized like this is this, I'm on track for a deadbeat life.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is not gonna end well if this is the foundation I'm laying in like some of the best years of my life, my early 20s.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just felt like lonely, isolated.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: And my story is um when I was in high school, you know, my faith was very much a huge part of my life.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: I was a practicing Christian, I tried to follow the way of Jesus, I was involved in church, and I didn't realize like how much that was supporting me.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like that was my life support.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: That was the only thing I had that was giving me vision.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: And in college, I stopped going to church, I stopped practicing my faith, I stopped taking Jesus seriously, and I just started drowning.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like that, that was like towards whatever rock bottom was in my story, it was there, like early 20s, 20, 21, 22, feeling so lonely and no longer having truth spoken over me.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I kind of remembered that and I was longing for that, but I just didn't know how to go back.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it was actually um January 31st, 2009, like the first and I think only time I've ever like tried myself to sleep.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: I was just so lonely, so broken.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I woke up the next day, and my buddy Ed, good Christian friend, picked me up and we did a week-long road trip from Northern California up to Mount Hood, and they had snow year-round that year.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so we camped on um on, I think it was Mir Lake, and we snowboarded during the day.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And he just talked to me about life with God and how much Jesus is his anchor.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I just started to remember like, oh wow, I used to have all that.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that was my turning point was just that discipleship from a good friend and hitting rock bottom, just the combination of everything.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was like, okay, like I'm gonna go back to church.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna start investing in my faith.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: And my life was just radically, radically transformed.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: And as a Christian, one of the most important things about my faith is reading, is reading the Bible.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like the Bible is where I get a historically accurate uh picture of the real Jesus who walked the earth and rose from the dead and had a set of teachings about how to find the good life, how to find happiness in life.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's supported through all of the Bible.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so even coming back to my faith, I knew like, ah crap, like I'm gonna have to read the Bible again.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm gonna have to read.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I hadn't really been reading at all.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, even for school, I had just been finding cliff notes and shortcuts and copying answers and anything I could do to avoid reading.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: But the craziest thing happens, like that that fall of 2009, as I started reading the Bible, the Lord started to heal some of my uh learning disabilities.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like literally, words started to unscramble, and I started to learn how to memorize words and sound things out.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I just like a ball rolling down a hill, I just started to get a little bit momentum and a little bit more momentum, and I couldn't stop reading.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was reading the Bible for hours a day, and I was like, this is the vision for my life right here.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, whatever is in this book, the power this book has, the power that Jesus uses through this book completely changed me.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: And from that moment on, I had found my pathway.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna devote myself to the Bible and to learn the Bible and to study the Bible.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that was my first step.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and ever since then, the Lord has really developed that into not only learning and studying the Bible, but on a pretty large scale, like teaching the Bible to many, many people.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that has just been something you you you if we could go back in time, you talk to any of my teachers, my parents, any of my friends, like, what do you think Ryan's gonna do when he grows up?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, nobody had on their bingo card, like, oh, he's gonna be a teacher, let alone like he's he's going to on somewhat of a large scale, like teach the Bible to many people and articulate and be able to unpack and understand like theological truths and make them applicable to everyday life.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's just the power of God working in my story.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: And as I look back on it all, I've now learned that this is this is how the Lord works.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like so often, the thing in our life that brings us the most shame that we want no one to know about, that we try to hide, is the very thing that God redeems and then blesses other people with.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so now I'm teaching other people how to read and understand the Bible when learning was the primary agent in my life that was bringing me the most shame and communicating to me internally that like I didn't have value and I didn't have anything to contribute.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Dude, that's awesome.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think uh you've hit a couple nails on the head, and I want to go back and touch on just a couple of things.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um first of all, I think it's awesome the power that God has to help heal you in your, you know, your disability, your your uh dyslexia, that type of stuff.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think that it's awesome that you know that God just has that much power, and oftentimes people don't give God the glory where it needs to be given, which is uh songs.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for doing that.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I want to talk about, I want to go back up to before that turning point.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of shame were you carrying with you every day?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: You said you were in those places crying yourself asleep.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: What describe that shame for me?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: What were your internal feelings like?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: It just not not good enough.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like I it's kind of like everyone else who's you know at the time 21, 22, like they can read just fine.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you're stupid.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like you you can't read, uh, you don't fit in.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: If people knew the real you, if if if we sat down and we just like, you know, let's read a novel together, um, a Stephen King novel.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just open up and start reading.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going, um, you know, I would never be in a book club, but I avoided like the plague.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Say I was like, that would be my nightmare because then you would know that like I wasn't enough.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't smart enough.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't educated enough.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what you just what you want is to connect with people.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: You want to be seen, you want to be known, you want to be loved, the basic foundational desires of life.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt like the only way people could love me is if they didn't really know me.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: And if people really knew me, then they wouldn't love me.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: They wouldn't see that I had value.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I had just kind of placed because it was the thing I couldn't do, um, I had placed so much value in the ability to read.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: And because I was in a collegiate environment with college students, it just felt like I was just the only one on my campus of like 30,000.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I went to a massive junior college, Santa Rosa Junior College, I think is massive student body, and I'm walking around all these students and they all got huge textbooks, and I'm in class with them and they're answering questions.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: I just felt like the only one um who had this inability, and um, it was just really isolating and felt like if people really knew me, they wouldn't love me.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: They wouldn't accept me as a friend, they wouldn't want me around, or they would think so little of me that it would just kind of devastate me.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: And with that kind of party lifestyle that you were leading during that time, and you grew up in church, you knew you had that faith foundation, but had walked away from that a little bit, separated yourself, put some distance there.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what were your feelings, or were there any feelings of guilt or shame from walking away from God or separating from God during that period of life?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think um I think I more just like miss the church.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's good, I mean, there's people who are in every institution and every pocket of relationships that have poor motives, including the church for sure.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: But my experience was like there's good people at the church, and I think that's because they know they're not perfect.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Now, in hindsight, I can say it's because they they know that they're the things that I was struggling with alone.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: People are generally a church because they know they don't have their lives together, and so they're vulnerably admitting a need.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like I have a weakness, I have a need, and so I'm going to God for that.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're already starting off on the right foot and having this vulnerable community.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think not being a part of that um really left me lacking and wanting in so many areas of my life.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of it was just.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: The conviction of God about like what I was doing uh wasn't gonna lead to the good life.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like partying and having funny stories of my friend, you know, running through the house without pants on or like Sharpie, Sharpie all over the face.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: It it was fun.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: There was like really fun times.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I like the feeling of being drunk.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the next morning, like it the it was like a little bit of fun, and then the next morning was just like a mountain of disorientation, shame, and like the it was like the vacuum got bigger the next day, not smaller.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: So it it was it was like a placebo um kind of effect.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's really what drove me back was just the conviction like this is not leading to a fulfilling life.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I yeah, I just missed uh being around people who love Jesus, learning about Jesus.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I still I tried to volunteer, I'm a drummer, so while I was still partying, I tried to go to this church.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: I knew no one there.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: I just randomly showed up to a church because I missed church, and I was like, the next day there were like auditions for the worship team.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I auditioned for the worship team, and I got in based on my skill, but then there was like a second phase of like an interview with the pastor, and the second phase I just botched, and they were like, We're gonna put you on slides.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I was in the booth doing slides when I auditioned for a drummer, and I would come in hung over, like I would be like hung over trying to do slides for church, and it just felt like so much dissonance, like double-minded.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I think wanting to live a whole complete integrous life where I was proud of everything I was doing, whether in secret or in public, like I really longed for that.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: I longed for the brotherhood of just friends who were vulnerable, and I just missed learning about, hearing about, and being close to Jesus.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, dude, I think that your story is resonating so much and it's gonna resonate with these listeners.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: And like I said a moment ago, even as adults, you know, there are people we get to these places in our lives where we're tied in.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just talk about church, right?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: We're tied into church, we're doing our thing, uh, we step away, we miss a couple of Sundays.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Before you know, we've missed six months, before you know we're in their Easter and Christmas, and then we're not even showing up then, right?
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: And somewhere inside of our minds, we know what the truth is.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it could be anything.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: We know what the truth is, but as we put that distance between us and the truth, it creates this big chasm and this emptiness inside of us.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I can speak for myself, but it has this big chasm inside of us that um needs to be filled with something, and it, you know, and then we pick up uh you know, in your case, it was the partying and the drinking, and you speak about the next day that vacuum was larger.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: That is totally an addiction cycle.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's a domestic violence abuse cycle.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever it is, you you call it whatever you want, you go into it, you're feeling okay in life, you step into it, you take your cocaine, you just you drink whatever it is, you feel good that night, and the next day you feel like so much of a bigger loser than you were the day before because you know you're that much farther.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yet, you know, you lick your wounds for three days and then you do it again.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um it is such a common cycle for folks.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that you know, even people listening to this today, adults out there listening to this today, find themselves and what you're saying is resonating with them so so much.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then you come to your turning point.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: That turning point I think was pretty phenomenal because that helped get you out of that world.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to say darkness, darkness might be a dramatic word for it, but get you out of that distant, that dark, that empty, that hollow place, and kind of puts you back on the map where you feel like you can add and contribute value to this world again.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's awesome.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and y how old were you during that turning point?
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was 20, uh 22 or recently 23.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it was somewhere in there.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: So even at 22, 23 years old, I mean, and I don't think it matters.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: You can be 22, you can be 12, or you can be 52.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, everybody's got to find that point where you can, you know, start to change and contribute.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, my brother, um, God bless him, I love him, and he has been a man of God his entire life, and he's always you know into church and all that.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: But on the flip side, he's been addicted to drugs and cocaine since he was 13 years old.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: So he does that cycle that you and I just spoke about.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he has a police officer in Alaska.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how many times I had to get off shift early to go to the hospital because he's got some, you know, something going on, right?
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to air as dirty laundry, but I need to be there for him as a brother, not as a cop.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and how many times do I contact him?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: He's got dope in his pocket, right?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it it's seeing the humanity side of it and realizing that not everybody is perfect, but God has a plan for us now.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: My brother's been sober for a couple of years, which is awesome.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: And he's you know, he'll talk church with you all day long, um, which is pretty cool.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: But so, and he's my brother's 60 something years old, right?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it took him 60 years old before he found his turning point, um, which is pretty, pretty cool.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, so what are you doing now?
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: So you you you come out of it, you have that turning point, you start burying yourself into the Bible, teaching others what is your world like now and how do you contribute on the day-to-day?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, my world is night and day different.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh just immediately coming back to church.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: I found a great church, and I know I'm not trying to have an apologetic for all churches.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: There are churches where there's corrupt leadership and moral failure, and um that my experience is to find a church where people have good and truly good intentions and they want the best for others.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that I think that's that's where your life can be transformed.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I found.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: I came back from Mount Hood, I joined this church, and I found like 30, 40 single guys in their 20s and 30s that were just in love with Jesus.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I had way more fun with them than I ever did partying because my friends who partied with me, they just wanted me to produce an outcome.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: These friends like wanted to actually know me, and we would just ride our bikes through downtown Santa Rosa at one in the morning to go to this late night pizza spot.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: We would uh throw parties, but they wouldn't have alcohol.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like we just went on hikes, we just had so much fun.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: We were always together.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we had so much fun.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: And and it was just the fruit of us following the way of Jesus.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like Jesus knows the way to abundant life.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's what he promised.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: And when you actually follow his prescription for life and live a righteous life, there's so much joy there.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, far from just this character of like, oh, God's like a deadbeat and he wants to take away all my fun and he just a buzzkill.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: I've found the exact opposite.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like the buzz increased when I started following the Lord.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so that kind of sealed it for me.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: I then went to Biola University, studied biblical studies and theology.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing professors who poured into my life.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: This one professor asked to mentor me early on, and he met me with me once a week.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: He was a uh underground church planter in China uh for 10 years.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: And this guy just loved the Lord, and we would just walk around campus and he would walk so slow.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: It would drive me crazy.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, why is this guy walking so slow?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: But he was discipling me.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: He was teaching me to be present to the moment and not to rush through life.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that was transformative for me.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: And um, then I found an amazing church where um I was mentored and discipled and came on staff.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: And there I met my wife.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: And from there, my wife dragged me, kicking and screaming, to be a foster parent, which I didn't want to do at all.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: But um, looking back, it's been one of the greatest gifts of my life to be a part of all these kids' stories who are in foster care, to be a surrogate dad when they needed uh uh like uh a father figure to step in and speak value over them.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: And and then I I went on to get my master's degree, and once again, just the power of God, you know, high school, I think I had like 2.9 GPA, graduated by all of biblical studies and theology.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: It was a huge degree.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was 78 units that I did in two years.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was just crazy.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: Known on campus as one of the hardest degrees, and I had a 3.9, and then I wanted to get my master's degree, and I graduated with a 4.0, and it was just all God's grace and healing.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, now I'm on staff at a church called Northwest Gospel in Vancouver, Washington, preparing to plant a church in Portland, Oregon.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I have a beautiful family, um, an eight-year-old daughter who we adopted through foster care, four-year-old biological son, and then my wife's pregnant.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: We're expecting our third child, uh, little girl here um at the end of summer.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, God is good.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I would just say if anyone feels like they're still in the cycle of shame, um, kind of in the pit, number one, you don't have to do it alone and let the light into your life.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: And by light, I mean tell one safe person what you're struggling with and start there.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, one safe person.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then two, pray.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like I could have never found my turning point on my own strength.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: It really wasn't me deciding to change my life.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: It was a the confluence of providential situations, of fighting that church, of my friend Ed taking me on the snowboarding trip on the night before, for the first time ever crying myself to sleep.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: It was just, it was just the Lord reaching out to me.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think prayer is a powerful, powerful part of finding our turning point and asking God to help us.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: So reach out to others for help, reach out to the Lord for help.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and I still struggle to read sometimes.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: There's still words I have a hard time pronouncing.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, as a Bible teacher, sometimes I have to read like really ancient Hebrew words and I try to pronounce them, and I just have no idea how to pronounce them.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so yeah, I just I always remind myself, like, yeah, my identity is not in the fact that I can read and teach the Bible.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like my identity is in the fact that I'm loved by God and He loves me, and I have Christ's value, and I have a community of people who really care about me, and I'm a part of a larger surrogate family called the church.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I try to really root my worth and value in those things instead of my abilities because who knows how long I'm gonna be able to read and teach the Bible, but I know that God will always love me and I'll always be a part of his family, and that's really worth celebrating and standing on.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: Dude, that's awesome.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me about your church.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me about this Northwest Gospel.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, do they have multiple campuses?
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: Are they already in Portland?
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me all about that, buddy.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, what kind of church is it?
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Northwest Gospel is a great church.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, their mission is to equip the church, to bring glory to God by equipping the church to be the church um and to multiply churches in our region.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they're a Bible church, they teach the Bible, but they're also a people church.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: They really love people.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: And uh there's five locations around the Vancouver area.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so if if you're in the Vancouver area, definitely check out Northwest Gospel.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm I'm stationed at their east side location where I'm one of the uh one of two primary Bible teachers there.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then that church is actually helping me greatly plant the church in Portland.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna be in East Portland, um, and we're gonna plant a very similar church.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we feel a call to make disciples who are full of the word and full of the spirit until Portland is full of the glory of God.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so we want to be a church that's both full of God's word and scripture, but we also want to be a people full of God's spirit, um, excited and eager to pray for people, to see them healed and set free and um to just celebrate and be filled with the joy of the Lord for all that he's done for us.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, if you're in the Portland area, if you're in East Portland, um definitely reach out.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us your email.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: Where can people pray?
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, hello Ryan MacDonald at Gmail.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, and my last name is M A C.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: So just hello Ryan MacDonald, M-A-C-D-O-N-L-D at gmail.com.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: Would love to connect and dream about how we can start this new church in Portland.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful, man.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for coming on and sharing.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and I think vulnerability and transparency is something that I really push on this show.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: And people that have been listening for a minute, you know, have cried on this show more than once and they know every secret about me.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um finding other guests who are willing to come on and share, especially men, that transparency, that vulnerability is uh such an amazing thing.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: I guarantee you there are people out there listening right now that feel stuck in whatever they're in, whether it's a job, a career, a relationship, um, and they feel like there's no way out, or they feel like they can't do anything different, um, or they're stuck, or they're drowning, metaphorically speaking.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so nice to a couple things.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: One to recognize their identity is not wherever they're at.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: My identity wasn't in being a cop.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: It was, unfortunately, but you know, you have that identity crisis, right?
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: Your identity is not in not being able to read or write or anything else.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: Your identity is the love that you have for people and the love that God has for you.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that it's such a great message for people to hear because I have preached on here over and over again, you're not stuck.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're not stuck with whatever you're at or wherever you are.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: You just have to look at it through a different filter, maybe a different angle, and then all of a sudden you're gonna see a whole new light, and that's exactly what you did at your turning point.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for being willing to share that and uh just being open and honest.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, like he said, Northwest Gospel Church, uh, it's in you know, all over the place.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: We have one out in uh the west side of Vancouver, Battleground, Camas area, there by the Costco and 192nd.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we have one out in Camas Washugal area, and then I'm forgetting one, but we'll figure it out.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then we got the new one coming up in Portland.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, you guys, thank you guys so much, and thank you, Ryan, for being on the show.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: And you listeners out there, thank you guys so much for coming back for another episode.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, I just love the fact that we can get on here and we can talk about anything, whether it's God or murders or music, whatever it is, and you guys are still here sticking around with day and day out.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you guys so much for giving us support.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: They've done it back to the word music podcast.