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SERIAL KILLER LAIR? CHEMICALS, HIDDEN COMPARTMENTS, BODY DRUM, TED BUNDY LETTER · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: Bombshell tonight is a serial killer stalking women in Philly
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: and have police unwittingly happened upon a serial killer's layer
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: complete with deadly chemicals, hidden compartments, fifty five gallon body drum,
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: and even a letter praising Ted Bundy.
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: want to thank you for being with us.
• 0:47
  Speaker 4: Police find violent videos and photographs of missing women inside
• 0:50
  Speaker 4: the home of erotic photographer RC Horse. Police continue to
• 0:54
  Speaker 4: sift through thousands of disturbing your graphic digital files as
• 0:58
  Speaker 4: the investigation unfolds.
• 1:00
  Speaker 5: Served a search warrant at four seventeen Cheue Avenue, recovered
• 1:05
  Speaker 5: another illegal gun, gun parts, a marijuana grow operation with
• 1:10
  Speaker 5: a street value of over two hundred and eighty thousand dollars.
• 1:15
  Speaker 5: Another badge, this time it was an FBI badge with credentials.
• 1:18
  Speaker 5: Also in a house where five earns containing what we
• 1:22
  Speaker 5: believe is the cremated remains. Another search warrant was served
• 1:27
  Speaker 5: at four seventeen Cheue Avenue. At this time it was
• 1:30
  Speaker 5: led by the Homicide Unit, crime scene atf and our
• 1:35
  Speaker 5: Bob Disposal Unit found that this time during this search
• 1:38
  Speaker 5: warrant what appeared to be some type of lab or
• 1:42
  Speaker 5: home lab in the basement, various containers containing an unknown
• 1:46
  Speaker 5: early substance, and over fifty pieces of electronic devices. And
• 1:51
  Speaker 5: this is hard drives, computers, thumb drives, things of that nature.
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: From our friends at Fox twenty nine.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: Way will you hear about the fifty five gallon drum.
• 2:04
  Speaker 6: There's a fifty five gallon drum. There's connections to it
• 2:07
  Speaker 6: go into waterlines. We just don't know what he's doing,
• 2:10
  Speaker 6: if he's producing something, if he's making something, if he's
• 2:14
  Speaker 6: irrigating something.
• 2:15
  Speaker 5: We don't know. When we serve the search one again
• 2:18
  Speaker 5: on that property to remove the sewer line, the lateral
• 2:22
  Speaker 5: and the trap, and we wanted to examine the contents
• 2:25
  Speaker 5: in that sewer line. The twenty plus containers with the
• 2:30
  Speaker 5: unknown substance was delivered to a special lab in Chicago
• 2:34
  Speaker 5: for testing an analysis.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Heather Adams joining us I detective author on INSTA author
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: off Win love Gils, Why doesn't he just take out
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: an ad on Third Avenue and go I'm a serial killer,
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: arrest me.
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: That's from our friends at ABC SX and Fox twenty nine.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: A fifty five gallon drum, a body drum, as it
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: is called deadly chemicals. What else was found in this
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: guy's home?
• 3:03
  Speaker 7: Well, first of all, let me respond, he actually basically
• 3:05
  Speaker 7: did put out an ad. The man has written multiple
• 3:08
  Speaker 7: books where he even calls himself an empathetic serial killer.
• 3:11
  Speaker 7: But back to his house, they found over six hundred
• 3:15
  Speaker 7: thousand images. They found over seventy thousand videos, tons of writings,
• 3:22
  Speaker 7: you know, a letter to Ted Bundy.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: Hold on, Heather Adams, you got me drinking on the
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: fire hydrant again. I think I heard the number seventy thousand,
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: but I thought I was having a nightmare.
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: What did you just say?
• 3:36
  Speaker 7: Over six hundred thousand images and over seventy thousand videos,
• 3:40
  Speaker 7: and they are all of violent sexual nature.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: Okay to doctor Bethany Marshall, hold on just a moment.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: I don't want to push Heather Adams. But when I
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: heard hear things like violent sexual nature, to me, that
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: says snuff film.
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: That's what that says to me.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: Where you're beating, sex, assaulting, torturing women, animals, children, just
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: wild guests. But probably since I've got all these missing women,
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: probably just women. I'm gonna give all your street cred
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: in just one moment. But violent sexual nature. I mean
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: the way she said that, it sounds like the aviol
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: lady at the front door. Hi, I've got popoury, I've
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: got lotions, I've got perfumes and videos of a violent
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: sexual nature.
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: It's just kind of like it doesn't really bam, it
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  Speaker 3: just found in the man's home. Hit me.
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  Speaker 8: Well, just when when you say sex crimes of a
• 4:44
  Speaker 8: violent nature, I imagine a woman being taken in off
• 4:49
  Speaker 8: the street, being told that she can be a star,
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  Speaker 8: that he's gonna video her, going to make her a
• 4:53
  Speaker 8: porn star. He claims to have done adult films, then
• 4:58
  Speaker 8: being drugged, being dated, being torture.
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: Are you doing it too? Adult films?
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  Speaker 2: I mean that could be Sophie's choice, that could be anything. Bethany,
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: please speak plain English. When you say adult films, you're
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: totally airbrushing the reality of what snuff film and porn
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: and violent movies, degrading, beating, assaulting women what it really is.
• 5:32
  Speaker 8: Torturing, burning, strangling, genital mutilation, facial mutilation, beating. One woman
• 5:42
  Speaker 8: had blood coming out of an eye and a bloody lip,
• 5:45
  Speaker 8: so you have to wonder, you know where their eyes
• 5:48
  Speaker 8: being beaten. You know, I had a patient who helped
• 5:50
  Speaker 8: clean up Ted Bundy's house, you know, as part of
• 5:53
  Speaker 8: the forensic team who came in and wait, that was Damer,
• 5:58
  Speaker 8: not Bundy. He described steleg Tites, a blood dahmer who
• 6:03
  Speaker 8: killed so many little boys and teenage boys on his
• 6:07
  Speaker 8: mattress that the blood had soaked through over the years
• 6:11
  Speaker 8: and formed blood stalegtites under the bed. So if we
• 6:16
  Speaker 8: think about what we might find in RC Horse's house,
• 6:20
  Speaker 8: it'll really bring up close and personal the reality of
• 6:24
  Speaker 8: what these women endured, Like what how did he inflict
• 6:29
  Speaker 8: maxicum pain? What did he promise them? Did they bleed out?
• 6:34
  Speaker 8: Were they were? Was their skin slashed? I mean, you
• 6:38
  Speaker 8: know with these serial killer status, sex and brutality go
• 6:43
  Speaker 8: hand in hand. They use brutality to become sexually excited.
• 6:48
  Speaker 8: So think about it as an offender who likes child porn,
• 6:52
  Speaker 8: let's say, and an image of a five year old
• 6:56
  Speaker 8: is not exciting enough, so they go to a four
• 6:57
  Speaker 8: year old, then a three year old, and then a baby,
• 7:00
  Speaker 8: than a baby being eaten by a lion. I mean,
• 7:02
  Speaker 8: they have to push the envelopes. So a serial killer
• 7:05
  Speaker 8: like this is going to inflict greater amounts of torture
• 7:09
  Speaker 8: on his victims in order to achieve the same sexual
• 7:13
  Speaker 8: arousal he had at the beginning of a defending pattern.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: Let me see, please control room. The images of the
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: missing likely murdered women that we're talking about, that we
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: know of right now. I believe this is the tip
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: of the iceberg. These are gorgeous young women, sisters, daughters, mothers, coworkers.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: They're missing, believe dead, and cops unwittingly stubble upon a
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: house of horrors. Speaking of all the images that Heather
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: Adam's eye detective author was telling us about, it's overwhelming.
• 8:00
  Speaker 5: The digital evidence that we serve search warrants on started
• 8:03
  Speaker 5: coming in. We utilize the RCFL and that's the Regional
• 8:08
  Speaker 5: Computer Forensic Lab. The amount of information and digital evidence
• 8:15
  Speaker 5: that we got was astonishing the investigators in that investigative group.
• 8:20
  Speaker 5: We have to look over six hundred thousand images, seventy
• 8:25
  Speaker 5: thousand videos, and over ten thousand pages of writings, manuscripts
• 8:31
  Speaker 5: and drawings. We have to review and organize those. While
• 8:38
  Speaker 5: searching the first hard drive, homicide detectives found the images
• 8:42
  Speaker 5: and video of what appeared to be two deceased females.
• 8:49
  Speaker 5: Those females have been identified. We know who they are.
• 8:54
  Speaker 5: This is new territory for the homicide unit in Philadelphia.
• 8:58
  Speaker 5: Usually when we have a homicide investigation, we have a body,
• 9:00
  Speaker 5: we have body parts. This time we do not.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: He mentioned RCFL. That is the Regional Computer Forensics Laboratory.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: It's a new FBI digital forensic technique that they are using.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: It's a high tech lab of digital and computer crime fighting.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: They're bringing out the big guns. Why because women are
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: dropping like flies?
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: Are they dead?
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: Are they missing?
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: A lot of the video you are hearing where you're
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: hearing Inspector Ray Evans speaking. That's our friends at Fox
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: twenty nine and NBC ten. Back to our investigative reporter
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: joining us, Heather Adams. When you said six hundred thousand
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: images and seventy thousand videos, and then you hear doctor
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: Bethany Marshall's description of what they contained, all of that
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: is probative in my mind, okay, because what you entertain,
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: what you read, what you watch, what you introduce into.
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  Speaker 3: Your home, that is where your heart lies.
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  Speaker 2: Where you spend your time, your money, your hopes, your dreams,
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: your spare time.
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  Speaker 3: That's what you love the most.
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  Speaker 2: And if he is that tied to snuff films and
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: violence on women, it's like you know, when the devil
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: shows up at your door, don't open the door. And
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: if you do open the door and he comes in
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  Speaker 2: for a cup of tea, next thing you know, he'll
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: be having supper.
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: Then he'll be spending the night. Don't let it in.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: But it's in six hundred thousand images of what are.
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  Speaker 3: Any of these missing women in these images? Do we
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  Speaker 3: know yet? Yes?
• 10:58
  Speaker 7: Yes, actually yes, so two of them and that would
• 11:01
  Speaker 7: be Gabrielle Amorando and Marabel Thresis. So they have been
• 11:06
  Speaker 7: identified in these videos and they appear alive at one
• 11:12
  Speaker 7: point and then they appear deceased at one point.
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  Speaker 5: If the images in the video are real and not
• 11:18
  Speaker 5: altered in any way, then based on their review, the
• 11:22
  Speaker 5: emy would believe the individuals depicted in the images are deceased. However,
• 11:29
  Speaker 5: without having an actual body or body parts to physically
• 11:33
  Speaker 5: examine them, cannot conclusively declare then deceased. Therefore them cannot
• 11:40
  Speaker 5: provide a death certificate or determine the cause of death.
• 11:44
  Speaker 5: That first female is Marabel Freshus fr e Ssess. She's
• 11:51
  Speaker 5: twenty seven she's born in nineteen ninety. Last scene February
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  Speaker 5: twenty eighteen. About two hours later, we made the second
• 12:03
  Speaker 5: notification that female his name Gabriella Amorando, amr A and
• 12:11
  Speaker 5: do O, born in nineteen ninety. She's been missing since
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  Speaker 5: September twenty twelve.
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  Speaker 2: To Dave Matt, Crime Stories investigative reporter Dave Matt, what
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: all was found in the.
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: Home, Nancy?
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  Speaker 4: As you've already mentioned, you've got seventy thousand videos, six
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: hundred thousand pictures, digital stills. But beyond that, we've also
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: got chemicals, Nancy, and they're investigators trying to determine what
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: these chemicals actually are. They've got all throughout the home.
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: You've got drugs, you've got proof of a marijuana grow operation.
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: But if you really want to get weird, earlier in
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: the press conference, I mentioned an oily type substance.
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: That they found.
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  Speaker 4: All right, this goes back to fifty five gallon drum.
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: They found these barrel the drums. Okay, the fifty five
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: gallon drum, but it had pipes coming out of it
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: and going into the plumbing of the home and out
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: of the home. That's why they have been digging up plumbing,
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: outside waterways and the other pipes that go away from
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: the home. On top of that, we've got fake DEA credentials,
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: switchblade knives, drugs including cocaine, fentanyl.
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: And marijuana.
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: We've got ammunition. We've got, as I mentioned, the marijuana
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: grow operation. But the biggest issue is that these the
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: barrel there, the fifty five gallon barrel, and the pipes
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: going out go into the plumbing and sewer system and
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: the groundwater.
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: On top of.
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: That, investigators describe portions of the basement resembling a chemical laboratory,
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: containers and equipment. They can even figure out the actual
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: purpose of all of this, Nancy, but it goes back
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: to a description written by R. C. Horsch, the father
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: of Eugene Hoorsch, the pornographer and writer of filth RC
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: Horsch actually described strangling a woman and using chemicals to
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: get rid of her body. And that's where we go
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: back to the fifty five gallon barrel and the oily
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: type substance found in there. I know it's stringing from
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: the fire hose, Nancy, but there's a lot going on in.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: This album Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: Okay, I really don't know where to stop. Some of
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: that video from Fox twenty nine.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: To oh, dear Lord in Heaven, how'd you like to
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: meet him in an alley? Okay, now let's see the sun.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: Oh my stars. Okay, Greg Morse dreamed me high profile
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: defense attorney of Morse Legal, author of the untested former
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: West Palm Beach County's Public Defender's Office, which means he's
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: already tried a lot of cases now in private practice.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: That's not good when the law enforcement officers are taking
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: apart you're plumbing. Do I need to refresh your recollection
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: about what happened to the home of Long Island serial
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: killer Rex Heureman. We watched as it was dismantled, bared
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: by board, tearing out the whole bathroom. Then they complained
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: their house was torn down. Gee wow, Well maybe you
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: shouldn't have killed so many women there and flushed evidence
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: down the commode and the sinks. Not a good look, Morse,
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: when your client's plumbing is being yanked out.
• 16:02
  Speaker 9: Well, in this situation, it's not that big of a
• 16:04
  Speaker 9: deal for Eugene because his dad died last year, and
• 16:07
  Speaker 9: as you pointed out, you know, his dad seemed to
• 16:10
  Speaker 9: be into this stuff made movie so his dad he
• 16:13
  Speaker 9: can just blame stuff on his dad. His defense lawyer
• 16:16
  Speaker 9: already did and made a statement, Hey, those chemicals were
• 16:18
  Speaker 9: there when dad was there.
• 16:20
  Speaker 10: And listen.
• 16:21
  Speaker 9: The fact that people have movies and things that maybe
• 16:26
  Speaker 9: ordinary society wouldn't watch doesn't mean you're guilty of what's
• 16:29
  Speaker 9: in those movies. I mean the late great actor James
• 16:32
  Speaker 9: Gandolfini and Nicholas Cage are in a movie called Snuff.
• 16:36
  Speaker 9: I believe that was made in the nineties. No one's
• 16:39
  Speaker 9: investigating them. And this is wholly different from the serial killer.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: He's dead number one and he was in one movie
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: that you're describing, and he played a mobster.
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: This guy what they made a movie about snuff?
• 16:58
  Speaker 10: They are It doesn't.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: Mean just say pissing on Gandolphine's grave, you're getting muted.
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: You cut his mic.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: That was wrong to compare the one movie he made
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: about this topic.
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: To you know what.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: Let's get back to the facts and I'll let Greg
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: Morris think for a few moments about what he just said.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: Brian Fitzgibbons is joining US Director Operations USP, a nationwide
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: security He leads a team of investigators around the world
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: trying to find and extract missing people, these women and
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: many others, I might add, do you really think there's
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: just four? I'll have to go to Bethany Marshall on
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: this because once you kill, I think it's hard for
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: serial killers to stop, and I have prosecuted serial killers.
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: I think it's hard for them to stop.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: My point with the you, Brian, is that there are
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: many other women in this region missing. And I can
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: tell you what those drums were used, all those chemicals
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: were used for to destroy bodies. That's what the oily
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: substances we keep hearing about.
• 18:18
  Speaker 11: Yeah, Nancy, of the four women that we're aware of,
• 18:21
  Speaker 11: that evidence shows them inside of Horse's home on video,
• 18:29
  Speaker 11: there's an eleven year span of when they went missing,
• 18:32
  Speaker 11: from twenty twelve the first one to twenty twenty three.
• 18:36
  Speaker 11: So the point you brought up is, you know, something
• 18:38
  Speaker 11: that immediately came to mind for me is how many
• 18:41
  Speaker 11: other women will be found in these six hundred thousand images,
• 18:45
  Speaker 11: seventy thousand hours of video.
• 18:48
  Speaker 10: I mean, this is.
• 18:48
  Speaker 11: An incredible amount of digital evidence that's going to have
• 18:52
  Speaker 11: to be gone through, and investigators are going to rightfully
• 18:55
  Speaker 11: have to separate fact from fiction. You know, what was
• 18:58
  Speaker 11: in actual crime admitted? And what was this sick, perverted
• 19:04
  Speaker 11: video stuff he was doing? And then they're going to
• 19:09
  Speaker 11: have to identify people.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: But did you just say the sick video stuff he
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: was doing. It's stuff films where the person is killed
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: in the end and horrific violence on women.
• 19:29
  Speaker 11: Right, And there may be other videos that don't include
• 19:33
  Speaker 11: that private What if one of these women's in that
• 19:35
  Speaker 11: snuff film? And I believe that investigators have at least
• 19:40
  Speaker 11: insinuated that one is.
• 19:42
  Speaker 10: And my question is is there more? Are there other
• 19:46
  Speaker 10: missing women?
• 19:47
  Speaker 5: You know?
• 19:47
  Speaker 11: Does this list grow from four to ten to twelve
• 19:51
  Speaker 11: in the coming days and weeks?
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: Here dude, doctor Bethany Marshall joining us, renounced likeo analyst
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: of the LA jurisdiction.
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: Can I see the two.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: Shots of the dad, this guy's dad, because I've got
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: one of him wearing a freaky iPad dressed it looks
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: like in a Catholic collar.
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: Oh, dear Gravey, Okay, then I've got him. Oh yeah,
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: there he is? There he is?
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: I mean, is there such a thing? Doctor Bethany Marshall
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: is looking like a serial killer? Now this is his dad,
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: That's the father. Could this be genetic, Bethany, I've never
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: bought into that, but is it possible.
• 20:36
  Speaker 8: The six hundred thousand images, seventy thousand videos, all ten
• 20:42
  Speaker 8: thousand pages of writing, this tells me how obsessed and
• 20:46
  Speaker 8: compulsive both men were. That takes a lot of time
• 20:49
  Speaker 8: and a lot of energy to produce that much material.
• 20:53
  Speaker 8: We know about sex offenders in general. They love to
• 20:58
  Speaker 8: videotape their victims because they can use it for masturbatory
• 21:02
  Speaker 8: material again and again. And Nancy, we're talking about violence
• 21:06
  Speaker 8: on women.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: Use it master, but what use for what?
• 21:11
  Speaker 8: The images they the six hundred thousand images, ten thousand videos,
• 21:18
  Speaker 8: and ten thousand pages of writing. They can comb back
• 21:23
  Speaker 8: through all that material and use it to masturbate. Because
• 21:28
  Speaker 8: what they're doing is their inflicting harm on women to
• 21:32
  Speaker 8: increase their sexual excitement. That is the emo behind all
• 21:37
  Speaker 8: these crimes. And Nancy, this isn't just violence against women.
• 21:41
  Speaker 8: We keep using the word violence.
• 21:43
  Speaker 12: On this show. It's torture. There's a slight distinction.
• 21:46
  Speaker 8: Violence might be you're mad at your wife because you
• 21:50
  Speaker 8: think she flirted with somebody else, so you beat her up.
• 21:53
  Speaker 12: When you get home.
• 21:53
  Speaker 8: You get dysregulated. Torture is prolonging the life of the
• 21:58
  Speaker 8: victim while that victim is in serious states of pain,
• 22:04
  Speaker 8: because you're trying to maintain a level of sexual arousal
• 22:09
  Speaker 8: by by inflicting the pain and the harm. And thinking
• 22:12
  Speaker 8: about a patient of mine who is an adult, revealed
• 22:15
  Speaker 8: to me that she had she had the remnants of
• 22:19
  Speaker 8: cigarette burns all over her genitals because her father, when
• 22:22
  Speaker 8: she was an infant, would put out cigarettes on her genitals.
• 22:27
  Speaker 8: So that that would be something that we would see
• 22:29
  Speaker 8: in a case like this, maybe skinning the victim, you know,
• 22:34
  Speaker 8: trying to strip skin off, maybe dismembering them, maybe poking
• 22:39
  Speaker 8: out an eye. I mean, think of the worst thing
• 22:41
  Speaker 8: you could do, the worst to cause suffering, yet not
• 22:47
  Speaker 8: have your victim die too soon, because you need them
• 22:52
  Speaker 8: alive and screaming and screaming and pain and screaming for
• 22:58
  Speaker 8: mercy so you can maintain an erection.
• 23:01
  Speaker 12: That's really what all this is about.
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: There is one slim.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: Light in this darkness. I believe one woman was actually
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: saved from certain death at the hands of a new
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: Philadelphia serial killer.
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: How did the whole thing start?
• 23:26
  Speaker 5: The United States park Police officer conducted a car stop
• 23:30
  Speaker 5: pedestrian investigation at that location. The vehicle was a BMW.
• 23:36
  Speaker 5: In the vehicle where two passengers, a passenger and a driver.
• 23:40
  Speaker 5: The driver was a Eugene Horse. He's a forty four
• 23:43
  Speaker 5: year old male from four to seventeen Shoe Avenue. The
• 23:47
  Speaker 5: passenger is a white female provided fake ID in the
• 23:52
  Speaker 5: name of Blair Tanzelli.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: The ranger heard a woman crying, intervened. When they searched
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: the car, they find horse carrying a fake dea badge,
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: a switchblade, two guns with serial numbers scratched off.
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: Nothing good about that.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: The woman was carrying a fake ID with her photo,
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: but the name was different, But the name of a
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: woman who had been reported missing, The woman that was
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: reported missing in that area back in feb twenty three
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: was on the ID. The woman told investigators horse made
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: her the fake ID and had her carry it. So
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: back to you, Brian Fitzgibbons, the woman that was screaming
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: in the car with him had a fake ID with
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: her the woman's photo, but the name of a woman
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: that's been missing for three years.
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: That's not a coincidence.
• 24:55
  Speaker 11: Yeah, and does this speak to the fact that you
• 24:59
  Speaker 11: know you'd horsee the son is so brazen to use
• 25:04
  Speaker 11: a missing woman's ID, that they might have IDs all
• 25:08
  Speaker 11: over that residence, and this was just one that happened
• 25:12
  Speaker 11: to be lying around that. Nothing in particular about Blair
• 25:17
  Speaker 11: Tonzelli's person stuck out to Eugene that he could use
• 25:21
  Speaker 11: this right. So that points to me that you know,
• 25:25
  Speaker 11: there's definitely more that's going to come from this, not
• 25:29
  Speaker 11: just the four missing women that we know of. Now
• 25:32
  Speaker 11: that we will hear about others connected to this father
• 25:36
  Speaker 11: and son duo.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: I'm looking at their faces for any similarities in their appearance,
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: because if you look at, for instance, Ted Bundy's victims,
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: they all bear a striking similarity as do rex Hueman's victims.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: Back to Heather Adams, joining us, host of Eye Detective author.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: She's also author of Win Love Kills, its collection of
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: true time cases about to come out. Heather, isn't it
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: true that there were five earns containing what we believe
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: to be human remains in the layer.
• 26:11
  Speaker 7: That's correct, five earns containing human remains, but they have
• 26:16
  Speaker 7: not disclosed identities at this point. If they can even
• 26:20
  Speaker 7: figure that out.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: Greg Moore's five earns of what we believe to be
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: human remains.
• 26:30
  Speaker 9: Well, they need to daddy, right, Yeah, absolutely, of course
• 26:34
  Speaker 9: he took the home over from the dad, and the
• 26:36
  Speaker 9: dad just died. You just you know, showed a picture
• 26:39
  Speaker 9: and said how horrible the dad probably is the way
• 26:42
  Speaker 9: he looks, And that's what the son's going to say.
• 26:44
  Speaker 9: He takes over this house, dad's doing whatever he's doing
• 26:47
  Speaker 9: in there. The fact that he made snuff movies or
• 26:50
  Speaker 9: whatever doesn't mean they're nonfiction. You know, the government's going
• 26:53
  Speaker 9: to have to prove that these people existed and also
• 26:56
  Speaker 9: have a body that they are actually deceased. You started
• 26:59
  Speaker 9: out your show showing that the police said, we cannot
• 27:03
  Speaker 9: say that the people in the videos are actually deceased
• 27:07
  Speaker 9: when they look dead. So these are all things that
• 27:10
  Speaker 9: are going to help the son tremendously. He's got his
• 27:13
  Speaker 9: own problems.
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: With Greg Moores.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, are you telling me this guy reportedly made videos
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: and had the missing women who have never been found
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: pretend to be dead.
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: They're not really dead.
• 27:30
  Speaker 9: Well, you got to prove they are well, because there's
• 27:36
  Speaker 9: nothing definitive at all. The police said it themselves that
• 27:39
  Speaker 9: they cannot say the women in the video that are missing,
• 27:42
  Speaker 9: the two that they saw alive in the video, and
• 27:44
  Speaker 9: appearing to be deceased, that they are actually deceased because they.
• 27:47
  Speaker 10: Don't have a body. So this is not an unusual thing.
• 27:51
  Speaker 10: I mean, they've made movies about it. You cannot take
• 27:54
  Speaker 10: what's not.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: Unusual that you find seventy thousand snuff related No, I
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: prove them are missing women And you said that's not unusual.
• 28:05
  Speaker 10: What, Well, well, no, because these things you can have.
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: Sop. I want to get in your basement.
• 28:14
  Speaker 9: Now, it's not sop. But it doesn't mean he's going
• 28:18
  Speaker 9: to be charged with serial killing. It doesn't mean there's
• 28:20
  Speaker 9: evidence that the son did this. He has a great defense.
• 28:24
  Speaker 9: His father lived in the home until last year. His
• 28:27
  Speaker 9: father was into all sorts of weird stuff, and if
• 28:30
  Speaker 9: it's not blamed on the father and there is a
• 28:32
  Speaker 9: link to him outside of the ammunition and weapons, he's
• 28:36
  Speaker 9: a convicted felon, so he has those problems. He also
• 28:39
  Speaker 9: has fake law enforcement credentials, which he has criminal charges
• 28:42
  Speaker 9: for that potentially, But.
• 28:44
  Speaker 10: He also is probably you can work up.
• 28:47
  Speaker 9: An insanity defense here when you look into how this
• 28:49
  Speaker 9: guy grew up with dad, if there's a link to him,
• 28:52
  Speaker 9: but simply because someone's into nasty, weird stuff, you have
• 28:56
  Speaker 9: to prove this stuff is real, the government's going to
• 28:58
  Speaker 9: have to have bodies.
• 29:00
  Speaker 10: The government's going to have to have evidence that.
• 29:01
  Speaker 9: Eugene killed these people, not just he has a lot
• 29:04
  Speaker 9: of videos that nobody likes or is outside the norm
• 29:07
  Speaker 9: and what people watch in society.
• 29:09
  Speaker 10: And Nancy, I live in the South. We don't have basements,
• 29:11
  Speaker 10: so there's nothing in my basement.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: Brian Is Gibbons, Director Operations USPA Nationwide Security help me
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: number one, two and two still equals four? Or has
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: that all changed in the last hour because these women
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: are missing. He has videos in his home of the
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: missing women. Two of them appear to be dead. There
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: are other women missing in the region and five earns
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: of human remains cremated. Am I missing something from this picture?
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: Does Moors have a leg to stand on?
• 29:49
  Speaker 5: You know?
• 29:49
  Speaker 11: I think the saving grace here is that our judicial
• 29:52
  Speaker 11: system will still bring this to a jury of his peers.
• 29:57
  Speaker 11: That defense attorney will have to try to whitewash this
• 30:01
  Speaker 11: away as some kind of bizarre sexual proclivity that this
• 30:06
  Speaker 11: father and son duo had, And they're going to have
• 30:08
  Speaker 11: to explain a missing girl on video allegedly being killed, right,
• 30:15
  Speaker 11: They're going to have to explain all these things and
• 30:16
  Speaker 11: what other evidence is going to come from this house?
• 30:20
  Speaker 11: So you see excavators being used, you see sewer pipes
• 30:23
  Speaker 11: being extracted.
• 30:25
  Speaker 5: They're trying to.
• 30:26
  Speaker 10: Find a connection.
• 30:27
  Speaker 11: Is there any type of human DNA that can be
• 30:30
  Speaker 11: connected to a missing person? Is there any type of
• 30:33
  Speaker 11: chemicals that are using have been used to decompose a body?
• 30:39
  Speaker 11: Is there other probative evidence that can be used to
• 30:43
  Speaker 11: tie Eugene Horse to the recruitment of these women. You know,
• 30:47
  Speaker 11: we don't know anything about that that piece yet either.
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: So why else do you have a fake badge?
• 30:54
  Speaker 11: Yeah, fake badge, multiple fake badges dea FBI. You know
• 31:00
  Speaker 11: what what devices was he communicating with these women on
• 31:04
  Speaker 11: to lure them to the house, And what were the
• 31:06
  Speaker 11: circumstances and witnesses, uh that were involved in that recruitment process.
• 31:13
  Speaker 10: I think that they're the state.
• 31:15
  Speaker 11: The state definitely has an uphill battle without a body,
• 31:18
  Speaker 11: and we talk about.
• 31:19
  Speaker 10: That in many cases.
• 31:20
  Speaker 11: But you know, these these cases are not impossible uh
• 31:24
  Speaker 11: to bring to a jury.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: Heather Adams joining us, star of Eye Detective, author and
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: author of When Love Kills Was the son living in
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: the home with the father before the father finally died.
• 31:53
  Speaker 7: Yes, yes, uh huh, So it.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: Wasn't as Morse described that that hand it over the
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: home and all of this stuff was in it.
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: He was there at the time.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: Also, Heather Adams, isn't it true that a treasure trove
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: of electronics and computers were also taken?
• 32:15
  Speaker 10: Oh?
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely to doctor Bethany.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: Marshall, joining us renowned psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: You can see her now on multiple outlets. She's starring
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: on Hulu, Bravo, Netflix, her new podcast On the Couch
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: with Doctor Bethany Marshall. Doctor Bethany, we keep going, we
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: keep talking about how did he lure him lure his victims. Well,
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: he's got a plethora of fake badges. That's a big red,
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: a big red sign of alarm. And the computers, the electronics.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: I wonder if he was meeting them online and if
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: there's a computer trail of that.
• 32:57
  Speaker 8: I would absolutely believe there's digital evidence, all kinds of evidence.
• 33:01
  Speaker 12: And how do predators lure.
• 33:03
  Speaker 8: Women through cameras and all of that. They promised to
• 33:06
  Speaker 8: make them stars. What I'm really interested into is the
• 33:10
  Speaker 8: graduating nature of these crimes, these alleged crimes, because you
• 33:15
  Speaker 8: have the urns, the four urns with ashes, but then
• 33:19
  Speaker 8: you have a drum with chemicals in it that can
• 33:22
  Speaker 8: dissolve the body, that have pipes going into like a
• 33:27
  Speaker 8: sewage system, the water systems.
• 33:29
  Speaker 12: Going in and out of the house.
• 33:30
  Speaker 8: And I was thinking about Silence of the Lambs, where
• 33:33
  Speaker 8: the victim is kept alive for some time before she's
• 33:38
  Speaker 8: told that. I believe she's going to be skinned if
• 33:40
  Speaker 8: I remember the film directly, and the fact that there
• 33:44
  Speaker 8: is one woman. What broke this case wide open was
• 33:46
  Speaker 8: the woman crying in the car with another victim's fake ID,
• 33:52
  Speaker 8: and if they were making up you know, IDs off.
• 33:56
  Speaker 10: Of these women.
• 33:57
  Speaker 8: Were these women's bank accounts siphoned? Were their families being stocked?
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 34:02
  Speaker 8: Because we know with Rex Kuerman he went and taunted
• 34:05
  Speaker 8: the family members.
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: Of his victims.
• 34:07
  Speaker 12: So what are we going to see there?
• 34:10
  Speaker 8: I mean, Nancy, the offending pattern is so vast and
• 34:16
  Speaker 8: so creepy, and so much more is going to come
• 34:19
  Speaker 8: out that we're going to learn little details that I
• 34:22
  Speaker 8: believe are shocking. I think what we're also going to
• 34:24
  Speaker 8: learn is that the torture techniques became more sophisticated over time.
• 34:30
  Speaker 8: You don't think of meat hooks, chains, saws, knives that
• 34:37
  Speaker 8: can puncture things like that.
• 34:38
  Speaker 12: We know there were switchblades in the house.
• 34:40
  Speaker 8: What kind of torture techniques are we going to learn
• 34:44
  Speaker 8: about that this father and son perfected over decades, Nancy,
• 34:49
  Speaker 8: They're going to be in that six hundred thousand images,
• 34:53
  Speaker 8: seventy thousand videos, ten thousand thousand pages of writing.
• 34:56
  Speaker 12: It's all in there.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: There is a technique called wet cremation, using chemicals to
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: break down a human body. Those chemicals, of course, are
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: potassium hydroxide and sodium hydroxide. Would they create the oily
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: substance that was found in the home. The letter praising
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: Ted Bundy states, acting on emotion is where problems occur.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: What I don't think I told you was the first
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: time it was planned ahead of time. The threat was
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: made before you know who came over. I already had
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: a two foot zip tie in my pocket and a
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: drum set up.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: I had been ready and waiting.
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: And a damn sure showed no hesitation. And it was
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: fun to Heather Adams tell me about the letter regarding Bundy.
• 35:52
  Speaker 7: Well, the scary thing is is that this is not
• 35:56
  Speaker 7: the only time that he's written something about being a
• 35:59
  Speaker 7: serial killer, what he's doing, and enjoying it.
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: And creating empathy for it.
• 36:05
  Speaker 7: So I think that him writing a letter to Ted
• 36:09
  Speaker 7: Bundy is where we could assume that the persona ends.
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: To doctor Bethany Marshall.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: Let's talk about mementos like I like to scrapbook and
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: I have not just pictures, but all sorts of like
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: the Twins graduation, their commencement services program, just all sorts
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: of tickets, just all sorts of things that go.
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: With the pictures.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: I want to talk to you about serial killers that
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: notoriously keep mementos, and a perfect one would be Dennis Raider.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: He would dress up. Here's a great photo of Rader.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: Here he is dressed up in the victim's clothes, dressed
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: as the victim. I've got pictures of him dressed as
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: a victim. Dennis Raider BTK buying torture kill is just
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: one example why mementos and what will it mean in
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: this case?
• 37:04
  Speaker 8: Well, let's remember these crimes are sexually motivated. That is
• 37:09
  Speaker 8: so important to understand them. And let's keep in mind,
• 37:12
  Speaker 8: Nancy that the mo for this crime leged crime rc
• 37:17
  Speaker 8: Hoorsche is that to have power over women and to
• 37:20
  Speaker 8: dominate them and inflict maximum pain is motivated by the
• 37:25
  Speaker 8: wish for prolonged sexual excitement. And then you think of mementos.
• 37:30
  Speaker 8: Are the ashes in the earned are those momentos? All
• 37:34
  Speaker 8: those photographs, the writing, the images, those are mementos. But
• 37:38
  Speaker 8: what we might find in that house are locks of hair, fingernails, necklaces,
• 37:45
  Speaker 8: photos that the victims had, books, purses, driver's license, lipsticks, anything.
• 37:54
  Speaker 8: Because again Rcahorsche bragged on a two thousand thirteen podcast
• 38:03
  Speaker 8: about being like a serial killer. So this persona appealed
• 38:08
  Speaker 8: to him, He inhabited it, he lived it, just like
• 38:12
  Speaker 8: the BTK killer who then dresses in a victim's clothing.
• 38:17
  Speaker 12: We also see there the oscillation.
• 38:19
  Speaker 8: Between being the inflictor of pain and the one who
• 38:23
  Speaker 8: has pain inflicted on them. In other words, they could
• 38:26
  Speaker 8: be a sadist and a masochist. So a BTK killer
• 38:29
  Speaker 8: tortures is victims, then takes on the clothing that imagines
• 38:33
  Speaker 8: he's being tortured because he gets sexual excitement both ways.
• 38:37
  Speaker 8: So it's really perverse, it's really profound, it's complicated, but yes,
• 38:42
  Speaker 8: we will find mementos.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: The reality is that over two hundred and eighty thousand
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: dollars worth of a marijuana grow operation was found in
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: the home.
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: So reality is he's charged on that. We are waiting
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: to see what else unfolds. If you know or think
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: you know anything about.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: This case, or are aware of missing people within this region,
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: please dial two one five six eight six eight four
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: seven seven. Now we remember an American hero, Sergeant John Williams, Coralville, PD, Iowa,
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: passed away in the line of duty, leaving behind a
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: wife turned widow, Kim, and children Brandon, Benjamin, Sarah Rebecca,
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: all sentenced to life without Dad. American hero Sergeant John Williams.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: Thank you to our guests for being with us tonight,
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: but especially to you Nancy Grace.
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: Signing off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night,
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: and until then, good night friend,