Latest / Hopestream: Parenting Kids Through Addiction & Mental Health / How to Help Your Kid Take a 30 Day Break From Marijuana, with Fred Muench

Transcript

How to Help Your Kid Take a 30 Day Break From Marijuana, with Fred Muench · Hopestream: Parenting Kids Through Addiction & Mental Health

0:01
Fred: What do you think about when there's something that's so powerful that you've decided to take a break and you can't do it?
0:09
Fred: What does that mean for you and your decision making and where you want to be in your life if there's these things in your life that are more powerful than your intention?
0:27
Brenda: Welcome to Hope Stream, a podcast where you'll hear interviews, conversations, and encouraging words.
0:33
Brenda: For parents of teens and young adults who struggle with substance misuse and mental health.
0:39
Brenda: I'm Brenda Zane, your host and a fellow parent whose child struggled.
0:43
Brenda: I'm so glad you're here.
0:45
Brenda: Take a deep breath and know you're not doing this alone anymore.
0:49
Brenda: Hi friend.
0:50
Brenda: So glad you're back.
0:52
Brenda: Before I share a bit about today's episode, can I just say how honored I am to be part of your team on the roller coaster ride?
1:01
Brenda: I feel like I am buckled up right next to you.
1:04
Brenda: Sometimes I may hand you a barf bag and sometimes even though we're really scared, we're able to laugh.
1:11
Brenda: Just a little bit.
1:13
Brenda: It is such a unique and sort of beautifully painful experience and honestly nobody who hasn't gone through it can possibly imagine the ups and downs.
1:26
Brenda: It's been really interesting to see over the past couple of years a significant and I do mean significant shift in the concern and the crisis that we are seeing related to marijuana.
1:41
Brenda: And I guess I should clarify that when I say marijuana, I actually mean high potency THC products that in the good old days were called marijuana.
1:51
Brenda: I'd say it is the number one substance parents in our community are seeing cause damage in their kids lives.
1:58
Brenda: Not the only one by any means.
2:01
Brenda: Alcohol and fentanyl and stimulants are also a big problem, but I would say by far the one that is the most insidious and stealth when it comes to causing damage in a short amount of time is today's weed.
2:19
Brenda: So when I heard about this app called Clear 30, which helps people take a break from weed, I, of course, started checking it out.
2:30
Brenda: You know, I did a deep dive on this, went down a rabbit hole.
2:33
Brenda: Then I found out who was behind it and I got straight on reaching out to the CEO, Fred Munch, who I knew from my time volunteering with the Partnership to End Addiction because he was the president there for five years until 2022.
2:51
Brenda: I guess I should not have been surprised that Fred was behind this app because he has been in the intersection of technology and substance use and addiction for a long time.
3:03
Brenda: In addition to leading the charge at Clear30, Fred is the co founder of Vegas Labs.
3:09
Brenda: where they innovate in passive mental health interventions using vibration, light, and electrical stimulation.
3:16
Brenda: He is the board chair of a digital parenting support service and an associate professor at Northwell Health Feinstein Institutes for Medical Research.
3:26
Brenda: And because that's not enough, he has also authored nearly a hundred scientific publications and book chapters along with seven patents aimed at enhancing mental health outcomes.
3:38
Brenda: And did I mention he earned a PhD in philosophy and is a licensed clinical psychologist in the state of New York?
3:46
Brenda: Yep.
3:47
Brenda: I think it's safe to say that Fred is obsessed with identifying and addressing the gaps and obstacles Within addiction and mental health care, focusing on developing digital and peer support services for people who might otherwise lack access to necessary support.
4:04
Brenda: When we sat down for this episode, we talked about the insane, I was going to use a more professional word there, like alarming rise in mental health issues, but I couldn't, I have to say the insane rise in mental health issues in youth since the legalization of marijuana.
4:23
Brenda: Not just the legalization, the proliferation of high potency products, and the fact that they're easier than ever for adolescents and young adults to access, even though they're not legally old enough to buy them.
4:38
Brenda: Fred shared some truly alarming, I will use the word alarming now, truly alarming statistics about who the heaviest users of high potency THC are and when they are using those products the most.
4:53
Brenda: We dive into the Clear 30 app and how it works to help people take a break from marijuana.
4:59
Brenda: Fred shares what marijuana withdrawal looks like, and it's worse than you probably think, and also gives tips on how parents can most successfully offer their kids a break from weed in a judgment free way.
5:14
Brenda: That is less likely to get pushback.
5:17
Brenda: This my friend is a goldmine of information and insights.
5:21
Brenda: So get ready.
5:22
Brenda: You are in for a treat.
5:24
Brenda: Take a listen to this fascinating conversation with Fred Munch, CEO of Clear 30.
5:30
Brenda: Enjoy.
5:46
Brenda: Fred, welcome to Hope's Dream.
5:48
Brenda: I'm glad that we're finally doing this.
5:50
Brenda: I can't believe we haven't done it yet.
5:51
Brenda: It's kind of a little mind boggling because.
5:54
Brenda: I don't know.
5:54
Brenda: I started working with the partnership in 2020.
5:57
Brenda: When, when were you there?
5:58
Fred: So, yeah, I started in 2017.
6:01
Fred: Actually, I was there in 2011 and I started the helpline with Sean Clarkin.
6:06
Brenda: You did?
6:07
Fred: Yeah.
6:08
Fred: And so I was brought in as a consultant.
6:09
Fred: I was there for about nine months.
6:11
Fred: And then I returned in.
6:14
Fred: 2017 to the Partnership for Drug Free Kids as the CEO, and then we merged with Center on Addiction in 2019
6:22
Brenda: and I became
6:23
Fred: the president and became the Partnership to End Addiction, and I was there until 2022.
6:29
Fred: as the president of that organization.
6:31
Brenda: Right, right.
6:32
Brenda: I remember, I remember that because I was working, that's when I finally kind of came out of my days, you know, of, of dealing with my son and his issues.
6:43
Brenda: And, and I went through one of the trainings, I think I hopped into like an Arizona virtual training during COVID or something like that.
6:51
Brenda: And I just knew I really wanted to help parents.
6:54
Brenda: And I was so grateful for the resources from the partnership, which I can't promote enough, like, Honestly, besides Hopestream, I think the partnership is the best kept secret also with so many resources.
7:07
Brenda: And what I love too about partnership is there's a lot of prevention information there, whereas we sort of Hopestream catches people.
7:15
Brenda: Once they're in it, you know, like nobody really comes to us when their kids are, you know, maybe starting to struggle So anyway, okay, so that's cool.
7:26
Brenda: You were there quite a while.
7:27
Brenda: You went through a lot of transition there
7:29
Fred: Yeah, a lot of transition there was a the biggest transition I think to start was the shift in media because the partnership was all you know The partnership for drug free kids was all about media the media market just crumbled which was nobody's watching TV anymore and that was The core of the message, all the funding dried up for media and I think the board realized they needed to shift gears in terms of expanding the helpline, bringing in digital, expanding the continuum of care.
7:58
Fred: So it was a great experience.
8:00
Fred: I was so grateful to work with amazing people and, uh.
8:04
Fred: It really helps me think about addiction treatment and care in terms of a family ecosystem, in terms of a network, unlike I ever did before.
8:16
Brenda: Because you were really with that helpline, which is such a valuable.
8:21
Brenda: You know, I'm always pushing people to the helpline just to have that level of care and resource.
8:28
Brenda: So you were seeing a lot of the family dynamics playing out on that, I'm sure.
8:32
Fred: For sure.
8:33
Fred: For sure.
8:34
Fred: And you know, it, it, it's been such a wonderful experience to think about, uh, you know, training family members, concerned significant others, and working with them directly.
8:46
Fred: As the person of interest, not just thinking about the person with a substance use disorder or their child, their partner, but really thinking about the family member, thinking not only about self care and, you know, self compassion, but also where are they on the continuum of change?
9:04
Fred: Where are they in their motivational uh, change process in terms of what they're ready to think about, what they're not ready to think about.
9:13
Fred: So it's, it's a wonderful way to understand how.
9:18
Fred: One person's readiness affects another person's readiness and vice versa, so much so that we have different Pathways for some of the programs in the partnership in terms of the text messaging whether someone's motivated or not So they get actually different messaging based on that.
9:34
Fred: So
9:34
Brenda: yes the text.
9:36
Brenda: Is it still called hope and help?
9:38
Brenda: Yeah,
9:38
Fred: help and hope.
9:39
Fred: Yeah
9:40
Brenda: It's so great.
9:42
Brenda: Yeah, I signed up for that and I was like, whoa, it's a little weird like Are they, do they know my family?
9:48
Brenda: Because it's so precise.
9:50
Brenda: Oh, that's great.
9:50
Brenda: I'm
9:50
Fred: so good to hear.
9:51
Brenda: Yeah, so what were you doing before the, the partnership?
9:54
Fred: I've done a lot of things.
9:56
Fred: I've straddled academia, non profit, and for profit sectors.
10:00
Fred: After graduate school, what I really realized in graduate school, I got my PhD in clinical psychology and what I realized was access was everything.
10:09
Fred: Which is, we're doing all this work and it's great when someone comes to us, but the majority of people who need help are not getting the help.
10:16
Fred: So how do we focus on access?
10:20
Fred: pushed me into technology based interventions very early in 2005.
10:24
Fred: I started working and I, uh, I was at a, uh, faculty position at Columbia Medical Center, and I quit within three months because I was offered a position as the director of research and development at a heart rate variability, uh, biofeedback company that focused on mindfulness and mindful breathing, and it was a device that could go out and it was a consumer based device, and that was something that was very important to me.
10:51
Fred: I struggled with substances for many, many years, and meditation and breathing was a very important part of my recovery and behavior change.
10:59
Fred: And so I saw this opportunity.
11:01
Fred: And so I would just say that, you know, I was there, the company went under, I went back into academia, I went into consulting, but at the core of what I was doing was how do we reach people in an effortless way so they can start the behavior change process without too much burden?
11:20
Fred: given where most people, whether it's mental health or substance use, are beaten down, whether it's the individual or the family member.
11:29
Fred: And so how do we make it easy for people to start that change process and then bring them in to much more formal care or much more intensive care later?
11:38
Fred: So that has been what I've been doing, whether it's text messaging, a lot of work in, uh, individuals who are heavy drinkers and text messaging.
11:47
Fred: Great results.
11:48
Fred: We've done large scale trials to show that text messaging is as effective as in person therapy for moderate drinking We've done other studies, you know with with family members as well to show that it increases self efficacy It increases hope or you know, so how do we start that change process?
12:07
Fred: And that's really where I was before the partnership Yeah, yeah, I started a company.
12:12
Fred: Actually, that's how I started.
12:13
Fred: I had a parent text messaging company.
12:15
Fred: That's how the partnership brought me in as CEO They wanted to shift gears.
12:20
Brenda: Oh now we know the backstory.
12:21
Brenda: Yeah.
12:22
Brenda: Yeah yeah, the access part is so huge because like you said, there's so many barriers and To be able to kind of ease somebody in in a way that doesn't feel like I have to step out of my life And go into some residential Place that I really don't want to be for 30 days, you know, like that That's a pretty big leap to ask somebody to take so the the access through technology is great And you know, we were just talking that I don't know if people know the statistics I happen to have just looked this up that there are roughly 12 million people between the age of 12 and 25 Who have a diagnosed substance use disorder forget about all the ones that don't have the diagnosis but have diagnosed and 95 percent of them Don't seek help and don't think they need help.
13:11
Brenda: That is Astounding and so you're really addressing and we'll get into clear 30 You're really addressing like how do we get at those people?
13:22
Brenda: Always families are helpful, right?
13:23
Brenda: We obviously know that But you're really saying okay.
13:27
Brenda: What else can we do to get to those people who don't think that they have a problem?
13:31
Fred: Yeah, exactly.
13:33
Fred: And for some people it's that substances may be doing way more benefit than harm in their heads, but also it might actually be doing that, which is people use substances for a reason.
13:47
Fred: I mean, I know I used, it made me feel good until it destroyed my life, but, uh, but you know, so many people are getting so much benefit and they're choosing short term, right?
14:00
Fred: So they're, they're, they're, they're in the short term choosing where they think it's not going to come.
14:06
Fred: and haunt them later.
14:07
Fred: And when you look at certain substances like cannabis, for example, where you're not even seeing the long term harm that's happening as you're using it there's acute harm with opioids and other substances where you may die.
14:21
Fred: And then there's this stealth.
14:25
Fred: underlying harm that's happening that nobody's even aware of in terms of your endocannabinoid system changing and your, your psychophysiology changing and you don't even know it.
14:34
Fred: And so that access people, how do we get those individuals to at least think about The behavior change process, even if they don't think about it for another six months or another year, what can we do to start that process?
14:48
Fred: And it's been fascinating and so much fun to explore that population because you can't go in pretending you have answers.
14:57
Fred: You have to listen to, yeah.
15:00
Fred: Well, I guess that's with anything, but with this population in particular, as you know, as a parent.
15:04
Brenda: Yeah, no matter what, it's a bad idea if it comes from the parent.
15:09
Brenda: Well, what's great now is when my son will call me and he's like, Oh, you need to listen to this podcast episode.
15:14
Brenda: Mom is like, got all this great information and you know, blah, blah, blah.
15:17
Brenda: And I'm like, really?
15:19
Brenda: That is so amazing.
15:22
Fred: I never said that.
15:23
Fred: Yeah.
15:26
Fred: I can't.
15:27
Fred: Wow.
15:28
Brenda: Yeah.
15:28
Brenda: That's pretty funny.
15:29
Brenda: So is that why you decided to tackle weed?
15:32
Brenda: Cause that's one thing that was a question I had is, you know, there's fentanyl, there's, there's, you know, benzodiazepines, there's alcohol.
15:38
Brenda: Like, why did you guys decide let's focus on weed?
15:41
Brenda: Was it because of that sort of stealth insidious, like slow growth of the problem?
15:46
Fred: Yeah, it was a, it was a combination of factors.
15:48
Fred: I mean, I think, I think, uh, one is, I, I do look for gaps, right?
15:52
Fred: I, when I, when I do my, I would say, where are there gaps?
15:54
Fred: Where are there big gaps?
15:56
Fred: And what was happening is opioid settlement dollars, a lot of dollars were going towards opioids.
16:00
Fred: And I think it was pretty clear that some of the most in, there was really three areas.
16:06
Fred: One was prevention, understanding, counterfeit pills, really just prevention.
16:10
Fred: Second was, uh, naloxone, harm reduction based strategies there.
16:14
Fred: And the third was buprenorphine and MAT to really support people in terms of the things that were making a real difference.
16:21
Fred: And don't get me wrong, you know, I think there's, there's many other things and strategies but with cannabis, there was this massive shift in the cultural zeitgeist around weed being okay.
16:35
Fred: And it.
16:37
Fred: And, and more than that, it was daily use being okay, and it was, the, the real shift came for me was when we started looking at Helpline and Help Help Analytics at the partnership, where 40 percent of all calls and connections were cannabis.
16:53
Fred: And one of the, more than opioids, more than, dwarfed everything else, dwarfed everything else.
16:59
Fred: It wasn't, I found weed in my kid's room.
17:02
Fred: It was.
17:03
Fred: My kid thinks his brother's poisoning him.
17:06
Fred: My kid just failed out of school, or, and it was decision making.
17:09
Fred: It was things that were like, wait, how is this happening?
17:13
Fred: And then you learn they're using high potency cannabis products, and they're using daily.
17:19
Fred: And last year, I don't know if you or your audience knows, daily cannabis use surpassed daily alcohol use.
17:26
Brenda: That is wild,
17:28
Fred: which is shocking because three times more many people drink, right?
17:33
Fred: So what you're seeing is with alcohol, it's about 10% are daily drinkers.
17:38
Fred: With cannabis, it's about 30% are daily users.
17:41
Fred: So there's something about it.
17:44
Fred: And the other thing that we saw was.
17:46
Fred: When we ask people when they smoke, they say a large number are saying in the morning.
17:52
Fred: And with alcohol and other substances, you don't see that.
17:56
Fred: Even with people who go to treatment.
17:59
Fred: You know, people drinking in the early morning is 2 percent of people who use alcohol.
18:05
Fred: That's not true of cannabis.
18:07
Fred: So it's enveloping their whole life.
18:09
Fred: And I was like, oh my god, what's out there?
18:10
Fred: So I started to look and I just really didn't see anything.
18:13
Fred: And I said, we have to, we have to tackle this.
18:16
Brenda: Unbelievable.
18:17
Brenda: Do we know the age breakdown of that daily use?
18:21
Fred: 18 to 25 is the largest number of daily users.
18:26
Fred: Oh my
18:26
Brenda: gosh.
18:26
Brenda: We're like losing a generation of brains.
18:30
Brenda: Yep.
18:30
Brenda: Is what that tells me.
18:31
Fred: Yeah, it's real.
18:32
Fred: And unfortunately, the data is not good with daily use.
18:36
Fred: Now, the great thing is people can recover.
18:38
Fred: But if you look at the long term longitudinal research, and granted, it's not randomized, it's naturalistic studies.
18:45
Fred: But what you do find is that, you know, young people use cannabis regularly, even when they stop are more likely to have depression later, you know, 10 years later.
18:55
Fred: So There's something happening with the endocannabinoid system that is not just an acute intoxication.
19:03
Fred: That there's something happening, and you look at heavy users of cannabis ten years later, and they have less gray matter in their frontal lobes.
19:11
Fred: I mean, there's real consequences to decision making, to cognition, and also mental health, unfortunately.
19:21
Brenda: It is Yeah, it's just crazy.
19:24
Brenda: And, and I think back when legalization was happening and, you know, I'm not out to villainize legalization, but I think what we didn't see at that time was the, the hypotensy products coming in and just, I mean, there's just no doubt that it adds easier access for young people.
19:44
Brenda: I mean, it, you, there's no possible way that you could argue that.
19:48
Brenda: So between those two, right, the hypotensy and the access, It is just a train wreck.
19:56
Fred: It's a train wreck.
19:57
Fred: And you see it in legalized states more than others.
19:59
Fred: And as someone who is in favor of the right kind of decriminalization or different models like the Danish model or, uh, excuse me, the Dutch model or the Portuguese model There are ways to do this where you're not advertising cannabis, and I think the problem with the way America does everything is commercialization is selling, and so we're selling, and if you just, like we saw with tobacco, there's products that are geared towards kids, but no, no, no, we're not selling to kids, uh, it is, it is a business, and I've gone to cannabis companies, they have no interest, and you know what it is?
20:40
Fred: The government's not telling them that they have to.
20:43
Fred: Until the government says you have to support people, they're not going to do anything.
20:48
Fred: Gamble responsibly, drink responsibly, that was all government mandated.
20:53
Fred: And right now it's the Wild West.
21:02
Brenda: Hey there, are you feeling stuck in a cycle of drama and arguments with your child?
21:07
Brenda: Worried, sick about their substance use?
21:10
Brenda: I have been there and I want you to know there's hope.
21:13
Brenda: This podcast is just one piece of the curated and trustworthy resources and solutions we offer for parents.
21:20
Brenda: We recognize you need emotional support and a solid plan for moving forward, making positive change in your family.
21:28
Brenda: So in addition to connecting with other parents and feeling like you're part of something bigger We also teach you practical skills and strategies to dial down the drama and diffuse those heated moments We step you through the evidence based craft approach a game changer that can help you invite your child to accept help Without resorting to tough love or waiting for rock bottom.
21:53
Brenda: We have so much more than the podcast waiting for you head over to hope stream community org To tap into all our resources and become part of the HopeStream family in our private online community.
22:05
Brenda: Remember, you are not alone in this.
22:08
Brenda: We're doing it together.
22:09
Brenda: Now, let's get back to the conversation.
22:25
Brenda: I see this daily feed in our community of what parents are finding, right?
22:30
Brenda: In their kid's bedroom, you know, drawers or whatever.
22:34
Brenda: And it literally looks like a bag of Cheetos.
22:37
Brenda: Yep.
22:38
Brenda: Or it literally looks like a, you know, juice box.
22:42
Brenda: And you're thinking how is this even legal?
22:46
Brenda: Yeah, if if weed's not even legal for anybody under 21 Yeah, why would you have a box of captain crunch?
22:54
Brenda: Yes.
22:56
Brenda: Yes.
22:57
Brenda: Oh, goodness.
22:58
Brenda: Well, okay, we could get derailed on that for a long time, but I really want to talk about your app.
23:02
Brenda: So Clear 30 I think I saw it on Instagram first and I didn't even know you were behind it.
23:09
Brenda: I was like, wait a minute.
23:11
Brenda: This is super cool.
23:12
Brenda: What's going on?
23:12
Brenda: They're trying to get people to take a 30 day break from weed.
23:15
Brenda: And I was so interested because you weren't saying stop forever.
23:19
Brenda: You're saying.
23:20
Brenda: Take a 30 day break and your videos are brilliant.
23:23
Brenda: So tell us a little bit about the app.
23:25
Brenda: What does it do?
23:26
Brenda: What do you get?
23:26
Brenda: Like tell us all the things.
23:28
Fred: Yeah, sure.
23:29
Fred: So I, I do want to say, I mean the conversation in terms of, I have a real issue with commercialization and I'm very vocal about it.
23:36
Fred: I don't have any issue with people using substances when they want to use substances and I don't have an issue with moderation or if someone wants to use daily, that's up to them.
23:46
Fred: I have an issue with.
23:47
Fred: Developing brains and marketing to developing brains and then also when we don't have resources for people who want to seek help or we push them away because we're saying, Oh, weed's not addictive, which is really focusing on personal choice and growth and making sure that everyone has the opportunity to thrive and live with intention.
24:08
Fred: And that's the, that's the clear 30 ethos of intentional living.
24:14
Fred: And so, yeah.
24:16
Fred: We started doing a little research and one of the things we found is we had done research on dry January and breaks and there's something called a tea break in, in the cannabis community and, uh, that's a 7 to 30 day break, uh, self, self guided, uh, where people just need to take a break from smoking weed and a lot of times it's to reduce tolerance but But really it's just to take a break and there wasn't a lot of guidance around it.
24:42
Fred: And one of the things we learned was that people were really okay taking a break, like understanding you needed to take a break was a part of culture.
24:51
Fred: And so we don't want to go outside of culture.
24:53
Fred: We want to work with people where they are and if they're doing, taking a break, what we wanted to do was really guide them on the break, really help them understand withdrawal, help them understand what to do to reduce withdrawal, help them to understand the phases.
25:08
Fred: of cannabis withdrawal, which is, which is significant.
25:10
Fred: Like it's not, it's not a couple days.
25:13
Fred: You know, opioids, even though those four days are awful, you know, compared to cannabis, which lasts three weeks, it's, it's quite different.
25:21
Fred: So we dove in and we started interviewing people to understand what people wanted from a weed break out.
25:29
Fred: And, uh, We started with text messages, just daily text messages.
25:33
Fred: That was it.
25:33
Fred: Just a text message a day.
25:35
Fred: That's been a lot of my research.
25:36
Fred: And what we found was that people loved it.
25:38
Fred: They loved getting a reminder.
25:39
Fred: It was simple.
25:40
Fred: There was, they didn't have to put too much effort into it.
25:43
Fred: And then we, we realized that people wanted more.
25:46
Fred: They wanted an app.
25:47
Fred: They wanted something that they could, they could.
25:50
Fred: dive into and really get a lot more information.
25:53
Fred: We launched last year on 421 which was our launch.
25:56
Brenda: And,
25:58
Fred: uh, we, we built out the app and since then about 8, 000 people have downloaded the app, which has been great.
26:04
Fred: As we were developing the app, we were just asking people what they want.
26:07
Fred: And then we were looking at the analytics and, and what we found was the goal for people, the majority of people who are coming in, one, are 18 to 25 overwhelmingly.
26:18
Fred: Now granted part of that is because we're advertising on social media, we're in TikTok, Instagram but also we saw that that's, those were the individuals who were smoking daily.
26:29
Fred: Uh, we also found that 86 percent were smoking daily.
26:34
Fred: So, so The, the people coming in weren't just casual users, they were using regularly, but they all wanted to take a break.
26:41
Fred: So what we started to do is say, okay, what do they want?
26:44
Fred: And so we started a discovery process.
26:47
Fred: So one was just guidance, day to day guidance.
26:49
Fred: They wanted information.
26:51
Fred: They wanted information about what happens when you go through withdrawal, what happens with your sleep?
26:55
Fred: How do I, how do I work on my sleep?
26:57
Fred: What happens with my appetite, nausea, all of this.
27:00
Fred: So we were just like, really, you know, Educational information.
27:04
Fred: Second was they wanted some sort of.
27:07
Fred: Community, but not just community within the app community, understanding what other people are saying.
27:11
Fred: So rather than trying to keep this very closed app, what we did was we searched YouTube videos, Reddit threads, and found really great stuff out there and just push people out to it.
27:22
Fred: So in the app, we're showing other people's content.
27:26
Fred: We're showing other Reddit threads, which we thought were really great because there's nothing better than crowdsourcing.
27:32
Fred: And then we just kept growing, growing.
27:34
Fred: We built a AI chatbot.
27:37
Fred: You can ask it any question.
27:39
Fred: What we found is people weren't proactively doing it.
27:42
Fred: So we set up questions for each day.
27:44
Fred: So on the sleep day, we say, Claire.
27:47
Fred: For clear is how you know, help me come up with a plan based on my assessment to help me come up with a sleep plan.
27:56
Fred: Help me come up with a craving plan based on my assessment.
27:59
Fred: So with craving, for example, if they choose their friends.
28:04
Fred: boredom and sleep as their main triggers, that's the craving plan that the AI will come up with.
28:11
Fred: So we really hyper personalize it to their needs.
28:15
Fred: And now as we're, we're building it, it's going to be a conversational agent where you don't even have to text, it's all going to be voice activated and you can have conversations.
28:23
Fred: It's going to be amazing.
28:24
Fred: So cool.
28:25
Fred: Super exciting.
28:26
Fred: The other things we, we learned was that people wanted to break with friends and we just, we just added this new feature, which is you can sign up and then invite friends and you can do a break together.
28:39
Fred: You have your own chat group.
28:40
Fred: So there's community where you can just ask questions in community, but you can create your own group.
28:45
Fred: And what we're finding is that groups are the main way people stay engaged, which is people motivating other people.
28:54
Fred: And we know this from everything.
28:56
Fred: You do everything we all do, right?
28:57
Fred: So that's been really exciting to see people inviting friends to take a break with them.
29:04
Fred: And You know, I, I think, I think if I look at what is driving behavior change, it's that people are getting information and then they're sharing it with friends and vice versa and it's opening a discussion.
29:21
Fred: So they're just talking about it.
29:23
Fred: And then lastly, there's the app community, but we, we know that people don't open apps.
29:30
Fred: Uh, my colleague, Amit Bhaumal, uh, uh, led some research and, uh, that we did together, uh, where app rates drop to about 10%.
29:40
Fred: After about eight days people don't open apps, even if they're health care apps, even if they want to so what we're doing is two things, you know, engaging community and people who are in the community are more likely to open the app.
29:51
Fred: But we add text messaging on top of the app.
29:53
Fred: So when they come in, they get accountability texts.
29:57
Fred: And when they get those accountability texts, they're more likely to come in.
30:00
Fred: Now what we're adding also is we have peers who are texting people.
30:05
Fred: So we have people who've done a 30 day break are texting others as well.
30:10
Fred: The goal is this comprehensive application that can help someone get through the 30 days and then decide what they want to do.
30:17
Fred: And if they want to moderate, we have a moderation program.
30:19
Fred: And if they want to abstain, we have an absence program.
30:22
Fred: That's the gist.
30:23
Brenda: That is so good.
30:25
Brenda: And it's what I saw, you know, I've been watching your, your social media and the videos that you have, which are so great because they're real.
30:33
Brenda: It's not like, I mean, you have some ads, but there's a lot of real kind of interactions.
30:37
Brenda: And it.
30:38
Brenda: What I picked up from that is that people really Want to take a break and they really are having a hard time because they're friends Yep So I think what you added that take a break as a group Makes a ton of sense because then it's not just me being the one oh, I'm not gonna be smoking today you know, yeah, which is a hard place to be if you're a young person because it is Part of the culture and yes, you're breaking from that norm and it's really a difficult place to be so I think that's brilliant
31:08
Fred: Yeah, and what we found is that it's the and we see this in other substances as well It's the individual that wants to do it They're not getting pressure from their friends who are not quitting but there's an awkwardness of being in a room Well, other people are smoking or coming after someone smokes.
31:24
Fred: So we're adding new features Where we're going to have a group for athletes.
31:30
Fred: We're going to, so you don't have to know each other.
31:32
Fred: We're going to have a group for musicians, creativity, artists, really looking at the sub groups of people who say, I use because it makes me a better musician.
31:41
Fred: Okay, great.
31:41
Fred: Let's take a break.
31:42
Fred: And you take a break with other musicians.
31:44
Fred: You take a break with other athletes.
31:46
Brenda: Yeah.
31:47
Brenda: Wow.
31:48
Brenda: I could just see that going so many places, like, even translating into the offline world, right?
31:53
Brenda: Of like, Hey, there's a bunch of us that are going to meet up your music group We're meeting at Coachella and we're you know, we're doing Coachella without weed this year or whatever like that would be Yeah, so cool.
32:04
Brenda: So cool and obviously I think you know where my brain goes is Could this work for other substances like you were talking about earlier, but I think this is such a crucial one I'm just I'm still trying to process the fact that you said that these people are smoking in the morning
32:21
Fred: Yeah
32:21
Brenda: Wow So their whole day is impacted
32:26
Fred: and because their day isn't impacted where it's affecting them in that moment They're just not seeing the consequence even though their grades are going down and you know, uh, so I think the good news is, one is, I think the blinders are coming off a little, that people are like, Hey, this is not what I was promised.
32:46
Brenda: And
32:46
Fred: I can't stop.
32:48
Fred: And you see these kids who are so genuine in their desire to stop.
32:53
Fred: And they're getting angry.
32:55
Fred: Hey, like, they said this is going to help with my depression.
32:59
Fred: You know, one of the things, I think it's day 12, we say weed and mental health.
33:03
Fred: There has not been any study ever done to show that past more than a few weeks That show that weed helps with any mental health condition.
33:13
Fred: Not one.
33:14
Fred: So if you look at it more than a month Yeah, acutely it helps.
33:17
Fred: So does alcohol and heroin.
33:19
Fred: It helps a lot with depression Like when I'm drunk, I'm happy So, I think they don't believe it They're like, no, no, no, doctors are telling me it helps with depression.
33:33
Fred: Like actually it doesn't.
33:34
Fred: There's no study ever to show that and it shows the reverse.
33:37
Fred: So they're getting angry.
33:39
Brenda: I always think that whenever I talk to an expert around weed and THC and all that, the one message that seems like it's working a little bit, at least it's like chipping away a little bit with this group, the younger group, 12 to 25 is.
33:58
Brenda: If you kind of go back to that, like, what is the source of this?
34:01
Brenda: What is the origin of this?
34:02
Brenda: Like they care about where their food is grown, right?
34:05
Brenda: They care if it's organic and is it past, are the eggs pasture raised?
34:08
Brenda: And so you've got that element.
34:11
Brenda: It's like, well, why wouldn't you do the same thing?
34:12
Brenda: Like, where is this weed coming from?
34:14
Brenda: And do these people really care about you?
34:16
Brenda: And why would they be selling you something that's 98%?
34:20
Brenda: You know potency when we know that what that does to the brain so it seems like That is a message that maybe is getting through a little bit of like wait a minute I think i'm being sold, you know a bill of goods because this is not Delivering on the promise that I was given and yet they're in so deep That they can't quit.
34:41
Brenda: Exactly.
34:42
Brenda: So, having something like this to help them start to just step back a little bit.
34:48
Brenda: And like you were saying, I think a lot of people are not aware, at least the parents that I talk with, it's like, well, just quit, right?
34:55
Brenda: Just stop smoking.
34:56
Brenda: Yes.
34:57
Fred: Yes.
34:57
Brenda: And that is probably the biggest myth that No, this is going to be a horribly miserable three weeks for kiddo and parent if you're living together.
35:08
Brenda: Like, hang on, get ready.
35:10
Brenda: You know what you should do is you should sell like little survival kits for the parents of the kids.
35:17
Brenda: It's so painful, right?
35:18
Brenda: To be around them when they're, when they're taking a break.
35:20
Brenda: But maybe talk about that a little bit.
35:23
Brenda: Like what is going on?
35:24
Brenda: Like, what are they going to be experiencing if they do take a break?
35:27
Fred: Yeah.
35:28
Fred: So it's highly dependent on how often someone's using the potency.
35:32
Fred: Uh, And given that the majority of people are using daily, and they're certainly using more than 10 milligrams, because when we even suggest 10 milligrams, they're like, what?
35:40
Fred: It's because we say it like under five.
35:42
Fred: If you look at the literature, the literature on psychosis is with five or 10 milligrams, right?
35:47
Fred: So, and when you look at daily use over a certain, over 10 milligrams, the risk of psychosis goes up four times.
35:55
Fred: That's 400%.
35:57
Fred: And some of these kids, as we know, are using 60, 70, 80 milligrams.
36:02
Fred: So in terms of the process, it will vary.
36:04
Fred: And even some people are using daily might not have the same withdrawal symptoms as someone who's using every, every other day, they might.
36:11
Fred: But in the beginning, what you see pretty classically is a combination of sleep disturbances.
36:18
Fred: Nausea or, or stomach problems, uh, vivid, vivid dreams because cannabis disrupts REM sleep.
36:26
Fred: And that's why people with PTSD actually like to use it because it disrupts.
36:30
Fred: And it will increase deep sleep.
36:32
Fred: So people think they're getting better sleep, but I actually think, and this is just a side note, I think that's one of the reasons for the cognitive problems is that you're actually not having REM sleep, so you're not processing information and over time that creates a problem.
36:44
Fred: But that's neither here nor there.
36:46
Fred: And then over time what you start to see is in terms of the physical, you're going to be irritable, you're going to have trouble sleeping, sweating.
36:53
Fred: You know, night sweats after those physical symptoms start to dissipate over around day five, then you really start to see the psychological, uh, depression, a motivation and people are like, Oh, I thought you said weed doesn't matter.
37:07
Fred: How come I feel worse now?
37:08
Fred: It's like, yeah, your body's going through withdrawal.
37:12
Fred: And as they're in that, Depression, amotivation stage is almost the worst time because they expect physical withdrawal, but it's that mushy middle period when it's really, really hard.
37:26
Fred: And that can last a very, very long time where, uh, the irritability and depression can, can last certainly longer than three weeks, but the psychological is weeks two and three.
37:38
Fred: And then you start to rebound and then, and then you start to feel better during week four.
37:43
Fred: And.
37:43
Fred: And the problem with THC is depending, like women and men react differently because THC is stored in fat cells and that's why it takes so long to withdraw, whereas other substances stored in bloodstream, you know, THC is stored in fat cells, so women actually have worse withdrawal than men and so you see these Great differences.
38:06
Fred: Women will have more trouble with, uh, nausea and, and, and men might have more and depression for sure with women, whereas men might have more trouble with anger, for example.
38:17
Fred: So that's, that's, that's to say there's, there's clear physical and then mental symptoms, but everybody's withdrawal path is quite different.
38:25
Fred: And that's why we've developed something in the app called symptom cards.
38:29
Fred: So.
38:30
Fred: We don't know what you're feeling.
38:31
Fred: We have an idea, and here are all the symptoms, but you can drop the symptom cards into your specific program, and then we'll give you messages to support you with those symptoms.
38:43
Fred: 60 percent of people want to start moderating, but, but about 25 percent want to stop.
38:47
Fred: And, you know, and then we're looking at the data of what they say when they start, versus when they're done with their Clear 30.
38:54
Fred: And And that's why we focus on this very long term behavior change process, not only because of how long withdrawal can be and that people are going to pick up, is that we don't want to let people go.
39:05
Fred: We want to make sure they know they can use this at any time because the other thing we're finding is people will take multiple breaks.
39:11
Fred: So they'll almost like take a break and then take another break six months later.
39:14
Fred: So we want to be there for them because we know the majority of people, like any substance, they want to make it work for them, right?
39:23
Fred: And then they start to realize, well, You know, this is not working.
39:27
Fred: I can't moderate.
39:28
Fred: So now I'll try to abstain and they've, they've, they've tried.
39:33
Fred: So after they've tried, they realized like, Oh, I really have to be in it.
39:37
Fred: Cause I, I think one of the things about weed withdrawals, they don't realize how hard it's going to be.
39:43
Fred: So.
39:45
Fred: Then they give up and then we're trying to say yeah, you have to be all in with this You can't have like 50 things on your plate.
39:51
Fred: You don't want to do it during finals, right?
39:54
Fred: You might want to wait until after you would just want to taper during finals and then do it after
40:00
Brenda: So obviously all these parents are wanting their kids to quit They would be thrilled to have them take a break.
40:06
Brenda: Is there a way?
40:08
Brenda: Just because like we said in the beginning if mom or dad recommends something it's gonna be a terrible idea Is that sort of part of your strategy of being in social media and being on YouTube so that they're gonna discover this on their own?
40:20
Brenda: Because every person listening to this now is gonna go and like tell their kid.
40:24
Brenda: Hey, buddy Yeah, I found this amazing app and they're gonna be like that, you know,
40:30
Fred: yep.
40:30
Brenda: So how do we How do we get this in front of our kids?
40:34
Fred: Yeah, so our target is young people.
40:37
Fred: So we're not going to family members.
40:40
Fred: And we're not doing it intentionally.
40:41
Fred: We want young people to seek us out.
40:44
Fred: Having said all that, a couple things.
40:45
Fred: We've just received a grant.
40:47
Fred: If we ever get the money talk about that another time.
40:49
Brenda: Yeah.
40:51
Fred: To work with 13 to 17 year olds because right now it's 18 plus Okay, so and part of that is to work with family members as well And one of the things we've learned is that your audience is parents
41:05
Brenda: Yeah
41:05
Fred: and one of the ways to suggest is The nice thing about a break is it's not forever.
41:11
Fred: It's really hard to fight back against a break.
41:15
Fred: Which is a parent can say, I understand you don't want to stop.
41:18
Fred: I understand you don't want to moderate.
41:19
Fred: You know I'm concerned about you.
41:21
Fred: What do you think about taking a break?
41:24
Fred: I'm not going to, I'm not going to tell you what to do after, but right now I really like for our relationship and so you can see what I'm seeing in terms of how this has potentially changed you.
41:38
Fred: Can you take a break?
41:40
Fred: And it's a, it's a way in and it's a way to start the conversation that even if they start smoking again after they know what happened on that break.
41:50
Fred: They know, you don't have to say very much, they're just going through and taking a break.
41:54
Fred: And if they can't take a break, that's of concern.
41:58
Fred: What do you think about that?
41:59
Fred: That you tried to take a break and you couldn't, Oh, I, I, I didn't want to take the break.
42:04
Fred: You were telling me to take a break and I didn't want to.
42:06
Fred: Are there other things in your life that you feel like are not helping you and are hard to stop?
42:11
Fred: Whether it's social media or other things that you wish you could stop or, you know, what do you think about when there's something that's so powerful?
42:20
Fred: That you've decided to take a break and you can't do it.
42:23
Fred: What does that mean for you and your decision making and where you want to be in your life?
42:27
Fred: If there's these things in your life that are more powerful than your intention.
42:31
Fred: So it's like a way to start the conversation without, it's, it's not permanent.
42:36
Fred: Kids can't think.
42:37
Fred: past two days, no less 30, no less six months.
42:41
Fred: So certainly not a
42:43
Brenda: lifetime,
42:44
Fred: certainly not a lifetime.
42:45
Fred: So, Hey, that, so that, that's really where we found parents who recommend clear 30, that that's where they've had the most success.
42:53
Brenda: That is super smart because for a young person, if you sort of are highlighting the fact that, huh, well, does this thing have control over you?
43:01
Brenda: Like, is it more powerful than you?
43:03
Brenda: You know, why is it that you're not able to step back from it?
43:06
Brenda: And a break isn't forever.
43:08
Brenda: That seems like a really nice way in.
43:11
Brenda: And even part of maybe is motivational interviewing, which we've tried to help parents understand a lot.
43:17
Brenda: Could be a really powerful way to have that conversation.
43:21
Brenda: Is the app free?
43:23
Brenda: Do you pay for it?
43:23
Brenda: Like what are some of the So
43:24
Fred: there's a freemium where you can track?
43:26
Fred: So it's tracking and also in the freemium is community because one of the things we realized is people want to recommend it to friends, but the friends might not have money or whatever.
43:36
Fred: So we wanted to make sure community was free.
43:37
Fred: So tracking and community are free.
43:40
Fred: And then the paid app is five bucks a month or 40 bucks a year.
43:43
Fred: Wow,
43:43
Brenda: I think every parent would definitely sign up for that for their kiddo.
43:48
Fred: Yeah, we wanted to make it accessible.
43:49
Fred: And now colleges, we're signing contracts with colleges and, uh, different non profit groups where they say, okay, wait a minute.
43:57
Fred: You're telling me it's 40 bucks and someone might stop.
44:01
Fred: You know, our, our outcome data is pretty good.
44:03
Fred: Granted, it is it's within our app and it's a convenient sample of people who have completed the 30 days, but we see a 70 percent reduction in weed use over the 30 days.
44:15
Fred: Uh, and these are even include people who taper.
44:18
Fred: So those individuals.
44:19
Fred: So we don't know that the total number of intentional days.
44:23
Fred: And then if you're more committed, it's 90%.
44:25
Fred: So we're seeing a huge shift.
44:28
Fred: And if we can, and we're working now with the Recovery Research Institute at Harvard and the University of Michigan to look at our data.
44:35
Fred: So we're really excited.
44:36
Fred: And we're even doing with Michigan, it's really fun.
44:38
Fred: We're doing these micro trials in the app.
44:41
Fred: So if you give someone You know, if you're recommended by a close friend versus an influencer to do a group, will you do it?
44:48
Fred: And really trying to understand how do we get people who are not convinced they need to change to at least think about their behavior in a different way.
44:58
Fred: So we're really excited about some of the research coming out.
45:00
Brenda: That sounds very cool.
45:01
Brenda: And I would def, I'll put links in the show notes, Instagram.
45:05
Brenda: Your videos are great because they're, the
45:07
Fred: kids are, they're amazing.
45:09
Fred: They're like, so that's the other thing is our team.
45:13
Fred: are all under 25, except me.
45:15
Fred: I'm, I'm the old man.
45:17
Brenda: You're, you're the grandpa of the group.
45:18
Brenda: Yeah.
45:19
Brenda: Yeah.
45:19
Brenda: And
45:19
Fred: I, uh, I let them go and I just put guardrails around it.
45:25
Fred: So sometimes I'm like, uh, you know.
45:28
Fred: Guys, this is not okay, right?
45:30
Fred: You know, and and if she has one funny story one time One of the young people working with us They interviewed someone who was smoking who just didn't look over 21 either I was like you cannot do that.
45:43
Fred: We cannot post it.
45:45
Fred: This is not okay, and and he's like, okay Okay.
45:48
Fred: All right, so Nobody who I should Ethically have sex with I was like, that's right.
45:56
Fred: High or under age.
45:57
Fred: There you go.
45:58
Fred: We're good.
45:59
Fred: We're good.
45:59
Fred: Those are your guidelines.
46:00
Fred: Go
46:01
Brenda: filter.
46:04
Brenda: Well, it's perfect because they aren't staged and they aren't fake.
46:08
Brenda: And I think that's much appreciated by young people because they will sniff through anything that is fake or manufactured.
46:15
Brenda: So I think that's super brilliant.
46:17
Brenda: So we'll put links in the show notes to that, but it's clear 30.
46:21
Brenda: Dot org is the website and I do think a lot of parents would be willing to say hey Because we actually are starting to see I will say we are starting to have more parents share Hey, my kids said they would be willing to try to cut back You know because they the kids themselves are the ones that are starting to feel the psychosis or feel the paranoia Starting to cough up black stuff.
46:44
Brenda: And yeah, you know, they're starting to see those consequences a lot sooner Then even four or five years ago that I remember.
46:51
Fred: Yes.
46:52
Fred: Oh, oh, it's dramatically different.
46:54
Fred: Dramatic in terms of potency and dab.
46:56
Fred: It's just different.
46:57
Brenda: Yeah.
46:58
Brenda: Yeah.
46:59
Brenda: Okay.
46:59
Brenda: All right.
47:00
Brenda: Well, we will get all of that in there, Fred.
47:01
Brenda: Thank you so much for spending this time.
47:04
Brenda: This is so enlightening.
47:05
Brenda: I think people are gonna listen to it twice because there's so much good information in there.
47:09
Brenda: And just, thanks for putting this together.
47:11
Brenda: It's just, we need it.
47:13
Fred: Thank you so much for having me in for all the work you do.
47:16
Fred: Family members, parents, concerned others are that additional motivation, right?
47:23
Fred: And so it's, uh, you know, combining things like Clear 30 that, that engage people in the behavior change process with that long term journey of a family member and it's a winning combination for sure.
47:37
Brenda: Yeah.
47:38
Brenda: If you have, if you have the support from both sides, it's the best.
47:41
Brenda: So, all right.
47:42
Brenda: Well, Thank you.
47:45
Brenda: My friend, if you want the transcript or show notes and resources from this episode, just go to hope stream community.
47:52
Brenda: org and click on podcast.
47:54
Brenda: That'll take you to all things podcast related, including the full library, a search feature.
48:01
Brenda: If you're looking for something specific and also playlists where we have grouped together episodes on things like craft recovery stories.
48:09
Brenda: solo episodes, siblings.
48:11
Brenda: We even have a start here playlist.
48:13
Brenda: If you're new, those are super helpful.
48:16
Brenda: So be sure to check them out.
48:18
Brenda: I also want to let you know about a free ebook you can download.
48:21
Brenda: If you're feeling anxious and confused about how to approach your child's substance misuse, the book is called worried, sick a compassionate guide for parents of teens and young adults, misusing drugs and alcohol.
48:34
Brenda: And it'll introduce you to ways that you can rebuild connection and relationship with your child.
48:39
Brenda: versus distance and let them hit rock bottom.
48:42
Brenda: It is a game changer.
48:44
Brenda: It's totally free.
48:45
Brenda: Just go to hopestreamcommunity.
48:47
Brenda: org forward slash worried.
48:50
Brenda: To download that.
48:51
Brenda: You are amazing.
48:53
Brenda: You are such a rock star, a super elite level parent.
48:57
Brenda: It's truly an honor to be here with you.
48:59
Brenda: And please know you are not doing this alone.
49:02
Brenda: You've got this tribe and you will be okay.
49:06
Brenda: You'll make it through this season and when you do you are going to be stronger and more resilient than you ever thought possible.
49:14
Brenda: I'm sending all my love and light and I'll meet you right back here next week.