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The Courage to Stay Curious · Red Couch Theology

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Hello, hello and welcome to another episode of the Red Couch
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Theology podcast. This week we have Aaron Young
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joining us on the show because she brought the message this
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past Sunday and we talk about serving and how sometimes the
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difficulty of serving is that the person that we're called to
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serve, which is everyone that is nearby us.
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That's what Jesus says is a neighbor.
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Sometimes those people are people that we don't like or we
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struggle with or who are dangerous.
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And so we explore on today's show, how does God invite us to
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learn to love those people and be curious about them, even if
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they're normally someone we might be nervous around or
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afraid of? How do we go about doing this
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and actually obeying this great commandment of Jesus to love our
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neighbor as ourselves? Let's dive right in.
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Hello, everyone. Welcome to A Right Couch, the LG
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podcast episode. We have Aaron Young on the
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episode with us, Alex Remote. And This is why we're not live
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with you, but we'll just upload this later.
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Yeah, we assembled this in the last 11 minutes or.
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Well, we we use a strong word everyone and I spoken to stuff
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and you did the wizardry. Yeah, at least she offered the
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help if she could. You just laughed at me while I
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flailed. I felt like I was very helpful.
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In the words of Hagrid. You're a wizard, Aaron.
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Nice. Well, we're I'm glad to have you
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on the episode. If you weren't here Sunday,
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Aaron Young brought the message. And so that's why she's on the
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show here. Alex is held up in his office
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because you're not sick, but you have sick people in your family.
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I would say the best way to define it is I am not sick.
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I don't feel 100% so I felt like he's.
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Really sick. So I'm like, yeah, but, but
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yeah, I have sickness in the family.
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So given that it felt important not to dismantle our team over a
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couple of days for Sunday, you know, I can do most of the stuff
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I need to do in here. Fair enough.
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You, you glib comments, all those things.
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Erin gets to bring all the wisdom.
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All right, well, yeah, in this case, it's the errands.
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The errands. We could start another show
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called The Errands Show. Oh, boy, that'd be fun.
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In fact, I might need to have you on the show much more often
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while Alex is on sabbaticals. I'll be looking for Partners in
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Crime all summer, so yeah, if you're interested.
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Yeah. We'll see how this goes.
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Like you should decide after this episode whether you want to
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come back. I just assumed we were
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cancelling the show while I was sabbatical.
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Well, last week I told Alex you're not going to like remote
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in every week while you're on sabbatical.
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All right, so let's dive into some of the some of the
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conversation around Sunday. Let's just start with a little
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bit about your initial conversation with Alex and and
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why this particular Sunday like resonated with your heart and
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why he maybe Alex, you can fill in why you originally reached
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out to Aaron and then she could fill in on how you received that
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initially. Yeah, well, I mean, obviously I
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have a lot of value on Aaron's wisdom.
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You know, I think she's very to talk about you as though you
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weren't in the room because you're not in this room.
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I, you know, think she brings a lot of passion for how the
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Kingdom of God is called to be an outward facing thing.
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You know, that's kind of what it's unique is unique about it.
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I think. Who is it?
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The one said that the the church is the only organization in the
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world that exists primarily for its non members, you know, and
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so I think she has a really great heart for turning the
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church outwards when it can be a little inward facing at times.
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And then there's all the work with the food bank, all those
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different things. And so I always love, I have
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always loved giving people an opportunity to speak in the, the
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main services, whether that feels like an opportunity every
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time or a gauntlet. But you know, so far it usually
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seems to work out well when people step into that space, you
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know, and you know, I often think of it when I describe it
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to people, I do stupid things all the time.
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They seem to work out fine. So I have lots of friends who
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will be much more cautious with that idea of having people step
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into what we do on Sunday morning.
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And yet I've just always found it to be a rich experience.
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So I have a high bar for it. But I think actually Aaron was
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an easier ask than most people because I've seen her up on
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stage, I've seen her championing the food bank in all sorts of
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ways. And so it just seemed to fit as
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I thought about it, prayed about it, And so I was delighted when
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she said yes. Yeah.
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So how'd you experience that? When when he reached out.
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It's kind of scary and overwhelming because it's
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something totally new, but it was so much fun.
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Oh my goodness. Like so much fun.
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So I really loved it. Yeah, what?
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What parts of it were fun? The whole creative process and
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then seeing God show up in surprising ways through that.
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Because sometimes I feel like we've seen, I've seen all the
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things that God is possibly capable of doing right?
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And then he surprises you again and you have this conversation
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with someone and that you never expected, and it ends up in the
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same scripture that you're preaching on, which is not what
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you ever thought you would be preaching on.
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And it just, I love the surprises of God's goodness and
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how He connects things that we wouldn't see as connected.
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That's awesome. Yeah.
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So yeah, you've been at South for quite a while, almost the
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same time frame when like you and I.
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Summer of 2013. Yeah.
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So we've been around the South for quite a while together.
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We were in life group for different seasons.
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And then you step, you stepped into serving in the food bank.
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When was that? In 2018, we fundraise it,
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fundraise for the renovation and then in 2019 we did the
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renovation and I was kind of part of leadership during that
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time. So yeah, and then Aaron's led
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the food bank directly in quite a lengthy period of time, but
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then also now sort of joined the staff team.
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She's over outreach. My dad has an amazing.
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She was also on the search team when I came to stuff, so yeah.
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So, yeah, so Aaron, Aaron's been deeply interwoven with all
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things outreach for quite a while at South.
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And for the joy for us is on Sunday.
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You know, you've been on stage talking about the food bank
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various times. Fair enough.
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But for some folks, just getting a chance to hear you teach.
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We've known what she's done behind the scenes for so long
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and it was cool to see you be up there and maybe like flip on
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people's radar in a different way and your leadership.
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So yeah, I was like, I would love for you to reflect back on
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Sunday and maybe just give us a. For those who may not have
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participated or weren't here Sunday and they're listening to
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this, I think it's great to get a quick overview of like at a
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30,000 foot level so they can understand where you took the
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message Sunday. Sure.
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So it's on the topic of serving and the Scripture was Matthew 20
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verses 24 through 34. It's a part where Jesus tells
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the disciples if you want to be great and then become a servant,
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if you want to be first, then become a slave.
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For the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and
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to give his life as a ransom for many.
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And then he goes on and he heals 2 blind men right afterwards.
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And so I kind of connected that all the way through to talk
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about the upside down view of power in the Kingdom around
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serving and around being great. And then I went on to talk about
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like, how did Jesus interact with these blind men?
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And what are some of the principles that we can pull out
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of that for how we love people? Well, I talked a little bit
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about othering people and what that might look like when we
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when we unintentionally marginalized people that we
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don't understand and we're not curious about them and their
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story. And when we just, we make them
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into maybe almost black and white caricatures of, of, of
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people, right? And we miss the humanity and
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that we all do that. Quite honestly.
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I did that last night at my son's graduation award ceremony,
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looking at some of the people in front of me.
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And I just kind of convicted about how easy it is to dismiss
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someone who's very different than you and to label them and
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and not see their full humanity and be curious about that.
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Yeah. I think that's the hardest part
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about preaching, how often God takes the things you preach
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about and brings them back to you within days.
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It allows you to see that that you're learning as much as
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anybody else in the room. Absolutely, yeah.
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It's one of the things I love about teaching right, is when
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you're preparing something and teaching something, you're
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learning in order to provide that content also.
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Totally, man. Well, I we did get several
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questions that came in. You mentioned the podcast.
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The context in which you mentioned it was in the early
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section of the text or it was like about the mom who right am
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I? Am I correct so the?
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Mom of James and John to ask Jesus to put them on his right,
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his left. Like was this really a common
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thing that but you're mentioning the the podcast, some folks sent
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in some questions. So I thought it might be
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worthwhile to just dive in and see what we got.
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That'd be fun. I have not read them yet, so
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we'll see how this goes. We can all be surprised
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together. This sermon is one I've been
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praying about for a while now, with the second with the second
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modern day list Aaron brought up of the ones I've placed in the
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other category that I perceived as acting opposite to Christ.
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People that show that they thrive and hate division and
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greed. Also, they are the ones that
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have used God's name only for the their political, social and
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material gain. In my heart I know that God
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loves them just as much as me, but loving them feels almost
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impossible. My question is, how should I
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start being a neighbor towards someone that has actively shown
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they would rather hurt or destroy me and my community?
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Start with a softball. Why don't you come on?
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And moving on, should we go to the next question?
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No, great question. Yeah.
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So it sounds to me, I'm reading into this question, so I could
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be wrong, but sounds to me like it's whoever wrote this question
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is which we don't know who wrote it in.
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We could find it out maybe. But they see some people who are
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using their influence for political gain, using even their
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faith as a political thing, and that's the person that they
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would put in the other category. So yeah, how do we when there's.
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Yeah, the when the other is potentially dangerous, when the
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other person is actively trying to dismantle you or your
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community, how do you still turn around and love them?
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I think those are great questions.
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And one thing I didn't get to you was talking about boundaries
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in certain situations like this because, and you know, tell me
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if you disagree, but in my experience, ministering to
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people, it's one thing to be curious and to have an open
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posture and open heart towards them.
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And it's another thing to allow them to harm you over and over
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again and feel like this is actually God's will for me to
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stand in a place of abuse. I think there's some lines there
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that we're not necessarily very good at talking about in the
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church. And I think it's a great
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question to wrestle with. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
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Yeah. I, I, I tend to think that.
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So I, I think when you're dealing with people that don't
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have any perhaps in their viewpoints, that can be really
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difficult. Sometimes we're the people that
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don't have any, perhaps in our viewpoints and perhaps.
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What do you mean by that? What I mean by that is like, and
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perhaps I'm wrong, so, so like it's actually a gift when you
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can hold a view really tightly and also acknowledge that you
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might be wrong. I mean, to use Aaron's word of
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curious, that that's almost a prerequisite to being curious
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about people because if you're so convinced you're right, it's
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very hard to get to that posture.
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So, so I actually think there's a couple of things that I think
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I'm trying to do, given that although I present a middle
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ground to stuff, I get lots of interactions with people.
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I'm like, oh, I don't love that. I don't love that.
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And so on one hand, like it's a judgmental problem for me and
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behind that it's an emotional problem for me.
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It's actually learning to deal with my emotions around them and
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saying, well, actually, like I, I, when I'm well grounded in who
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Jesus is, can actually navigate those things better that I can
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hold the Jesus posture that we talked about a few weeks ago.
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Will Father forgive them? They don't know what they're
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doing. And.
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Actually believe that they don't know what they're doing, even
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when I'm pretty convinced they know what they're doing.
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And that's what Jesus does, right?
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With a whole bunch of people that clearly in the text seem to
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know exactly what they're doing. And Jesus is the one that's able
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to look deeper and be like, oh, yeah, yeah, no, they don't
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actually know. And it's one of the things I
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love most about him, one of the gifts.
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And so when when I start to see that I actually had a couple of
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conversations with people recently in the same area and I
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said, yes, boundaries are really good, really important at times.
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And also be aware, Jesus main purpose for you is to form you
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in his way in it with his heart. And so if he puts people in your
13:49
life that you find difficult, just be open to the possibility
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he may be trying to form you in his way with his heart through
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those people. And that's not comfortable but
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but often how I've seen him work in my life at least.
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Yeah, yeah. It's interesting because, yeah,
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like like Aaron said, we wouldn't advocate just receiving
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abuse in the name of love. Absolutely no.
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But at the same time, that's kind of what Jesus did not kind
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of that's exactly what Jesus did in the sense that he received
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such hostility that against himself that he was literally
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put to death by people that he loved.
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And he chose that path. But he chose that path because
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of a calling, because of a work that he was doing on our behalf.
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It's it is a very confusing thing.
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There might be. So then I guess to get back to
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this person's question, if we want to learn to grow in love
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for even our enemies who are actively trying to harm us, are
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there any things that we can do to learn to have the heart of
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Jesus for them increasingly, even if there's boundaries
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involved, and that's. You framing it up as growing in
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love for them because I think some of it depends on how we
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define loving them. Like, what does that mean?
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Because Alice, you were talking about forgiveness, right?
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And I was talking a lot about like an act of love towards
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someone, like practicing curiosity, engaging in
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relationship with them. Maybe it doesn't look like that.
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Like maybe growing in love for them looks a little bit
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different. Yeah, I know.
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Like from a distance. Yeah, yeah, India agreed.
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And I actually think behind the scenes, This is why we started
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the series with begin with prayer, because that actually is
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the thing that seems it's very hard to not love someone you're
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spending a lot of time praying for, or at least, sorry, let me
15:49
take that back. It's very hard to not want the
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good for someone who you're praying for.
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A lot of the time there's almost this weird dichotomy like I
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think you start off praying for them resentfully.
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After a while, you start praying for the more more happily and
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and yet hoping that the prayers don't work in some ways because
16:08
you don't really like them. You're like God, I pray that you
16:11
will bless them and not really. And then if eventually I think
16:14
the transformation over time is that you begin to actually want
16:19
God to work in them. You start to capture the heart
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of Jesus that can see his enemies that way.
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So I always picture Jesus like in this moment where he stands
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over Jerusalem, a city that at least in certain of the
16:32
Scriptures has completely opposed him and his ministry has
16:38
rejected him, will in a few days crucify him.
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And he weeps over the city and says, I long for it, to long for
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its good. So eventually I think we start
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to do those kind of things. And so I think that's that's why
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it makes a beautiful first thing when you can't do anything else.
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Yeah, yeah. I mean, I love, I love the way
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you just framed that, Aaron, in the idea that what does it mean
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to love someone? I know from parenting, sometimes
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the thing that love demands of me as a parent is to say
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absolutely not. You're not doing that under any
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circumstance. Why?
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Because it's dangerous for you. It's unhealthy for you.
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So sometimes true love that's actually pursuing the best the
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good of the other demands almost a stiff arm.
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I oppose this because it's not good for you or for others who
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you're harming. And gosh, it takes crazy amounts
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of wisdom from the Spirit, I think, to know what that looks
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like. So it would probably be case by
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case by case by case, like I think of the abolition of
17:51
slavery and like these folks who would would argue in courtrooms
17:55
or go to war and fight on behalf of people who are being
17:58
marginalized and abused. A kind of love in a weird sort
18:02
of a way. Like, I don't know it.
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I think it just, it would take a lot of prayerful wisdom to sense
18:09
what the Spirit, how the Spirit would define the best expression
18:13
of love in certain situations. I wish we had a hard answer for
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this, whoever wrote this question in, but it's I think
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it's a little bit more nuanced than that.
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I think so. And I think also what I heard
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you say is looking for the good, like praying for their good, for
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God's good for them, right? It doesn't mean agreeing with
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them and it doesn't mean stepping back and being like,
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well, I'm not going to hold what I believe to be good and right
18:38
and true and from Jesus in this place, right?
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And so I think sometimes we think that when we love someone,
18:43
that means that we don't challenge them or we don't push
18:47
back against something that maybe they're putting on us.
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That isn't true. And so again, more nuance.
18:53
But again, like, yeah, you don't have to agree with someone to
18:57
care for them. Yeah, love your neighbor as
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yourself turns out to be a little bit more complicated.
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It's like on the surface, just it like rolls off the tongue and
19:06
then you're like, how do, Oh wow, how do I actually do that?
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And that's when you wade into the deep end of human brokenness
19:12
and you're like, goodness gracious, this is confusing,
19:15
huh? So something you said Sunday
19:19
that or actually, and I think you just, you just mentioned it
19:22
now. It's, it's the curiosity and
19:24
it's about the primary feature of learning to love another
19:28
human being is to treat them as another human being created in
19:31
the image of God. So like, you're not loving their
19:34
behavior, you're not loving the way they're showing up, you're
19:37
not having to love any of those things.
19:39
You're loving the fact that you're loving the person that
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God created, the redeemed per the redeemable person that's
19:47
made in his image. And as long as we're treating
19:51
people as human creatures, creatures loved by the Creator,
19:55
then their behavior, their action, all these sorts of
19:58
things can actually go by the wayside and you can still love
20:01
the core of what God made them to be.
20:03
Yeah. Any other thoughts, Alex, before
20:06
we go to the next question? Hopefully it's a slight little
20:09
easier one. I didn't say I think too when
20:11
you do that you createspace for the Holy Spirit, right?
20:14
And so you're not in this alone. This isn't just you trying to
20:17
love them. This is also the Holy Spirit in
20:19
you helping them to see them as that created in the image of God
20:23
and the redeemable or redeemed facets of that.
20:27
Yeah, yeah, for sure. We got another question that
20:31
came in. Maybe this is actually a
20:32
completion of a question that came in last week that didn't
20:35
fully come through, but still very much in need of help or
20:37
support. Thank you for your comments last
20:39
week. Really need and would appreciate
20:42
continued prayer, especially to learn to love and have a servant
20:47
hearted, especially a loving, caring, servant hearted spirit.
20:52
I truly appreciate this, this week's sermon on serving.
20:56
It was exceptional and meaningful to me.
20:59
Part of the challenge for me is also being on the East Coast.
21:03
So. OK, so this is someone who sent
21:04
in a message from East Coast. We have fans in the East Coast.
21:09
Crazy. But yeah, so it's a little bit
21:12
more of a comment. I'm not sure what the question
21:13
is there, but maybe maybe towards the end of the episode,
21:17
Alex, you could you could pray over this person or something
21:20
like that. But I think, I think maybe I'll
21:24
interject my own question from this, which would be, well, it's
21:29
similar to the last one in, in a lot of ways.
21:31
How do we, when we recognize that tension in our hearts
21:34
towards someone, how do we, how do we start to unearth that?
21:39
Because I think it's less that, oh, I'm just done loving.
21:42
Usually there's other baggage that has to be dealt with prior
21:45
to getting to a place of love. I don't know.
21:48
Does that question make sense? Sure.
21:50
How do we go deeper? I mean, I'm kind of learned to
21:53
start with just confessing to God whatever is going on in my
21:56
heart, like he already knows, but just speaking to him like
22:00
myself last night, Lord, there is this incredible woman
22:03
standing in front of me today that like I, I really struggle
22:07
with how she's talking to this person and how she's showing up
22:10
in the world. Like I don't know why this is
22:11
hard for me. Maybe because I'm doing some
22:13
sort of comparison game, but like asking God to to operate in
22:17
that space, just being honest with what and I'm trying to
22:20
identify why do I feel this way? What's going on in me?
22:24
And trusting God in that space and not necessarily having the
22:28
answers, but knowing it's a process also of growth and
22:31
reflection and creating space for the Spirit to maybe respond
22:35
to what you're saying. Yeah, so your big, your big
22:40
idea, your like main point had the word curiosity in it.
22:45
It was like a pursuit of curiosity.
22:46
I can't remember it the. Hold our answers loosely yes,
22:49
and our curiosity tightly. Love that.
22:52
So what I just heard you say is actually it's not just curiosity
22:56
about the other. It's actually also like, Lord,
22:59
I'm did I need to get curious about why I just reacted the way
23:03
I just did? Not that turns out curiosity can
23:07
be powerful on both fronts. Yeah, I love that.
23:10
Well, there's that famous quote. There's a Walt Whitman, a
23:14
tributation, but it's probably not Walt Whitman.
23:17
Be curious, not judgmental, which got made the rounds like
23:21
probably a couple of years ago. It became famous because of Ted
23:23
Lasso, who used it in a like a famous scene in the TV show.
23:28
But it really, like, landed across for a whole bunch of
23:32
people. I think it's far harder to live
23:34
out than it is to, like, trip off the tongue.
23:39
Yeah, it sounds great, but I think it's hard.
23:43
So I think, I think you let us beautifully into that idea with
23:46
just different language. Yeah, so I'd love to explore
23:50
briefly why is all this stuff hard?
23:53
You know, like I just said that the phrase love the Lord you God
23:57
with all your heart and soul, mind, strength, love your
23:58
neighbors, yourself. It rolls off the tongue sounds
24:02
great as a mental exercise of just like, Oh yeah, that's how
24:06
the world should work. What is in it about broken
24:09
humanity that that makes obeying those commands so astronomically
24:15
difficult? I guess maybe I don't set it up
24:19
that way. I don't set it up as
24:22
astronomically difficult because I see it as a process like we're
24:28
not meant to like nail it and have it all together and do it
24:32
100% all the time perfectly. Like we're, we're on this growth
24:36
process towards that. And so of course we're going to
24:40
be judgmental. You can, you can go into the
24:42
theology of sin. I'm not going to go there
24:44
myself. I'm still wrestling with what
24:46
that means. But like, of course we're going
24:48
to be judgmental. What did we do with that?
24:50
If we keep bringing that back to Jesus, if we keep surrendering
24:53
that, if we keep identifying that, then it's a process, not a
24:58
one and done or all or nothing kind of a thing, I guess is what
25:04
what I'm saying. So it's really, really hard if
25:08
your standard is perfection, but if you're willing to like
25:12
recognize there's no condemnations for those in
25:14
Christ, that he loves you with that kind of unconditional love.
25:17
It gives you the freedom to say, you know, I'm just going to make
25:20
some baby steps and not condemn myself along the way when I trip
25:23
myself up. So the journey going, or at
25:27
least starting the journey of learning to love others is maybe
25:31
less daunting if we treat it with that kind of grace.
25:35
Or maybe the whole thing. Yeah, maybe the whole thing
25:38
because, yeah, like you said, God's not condemning us on that.
25:43
And so perhaps sometimes if we see it as hard, we're almost
25:47
setting ourselves up for failure instead of being like, hey,
25:51
acknowledge, yeah, this is tough and what can I do and what is
25:55
the Spirit empowering me to do? And what is an example that I
25:57
can turn to and who is my community like?
25:59
I think too, that's the other important part is we're not
26:01
doing this alone. Not only do we have the Holy
26:04
Spirit, but hopefully we have community, we have mutual
26:06
encouragement, we have friends, we have family.
26:08
Like I couldn't even gone up on that stage Sunday, quite
26:10
honestly, without the support of my friends and family.
26:13
And they just really lifted me up on their shoulders.
26:16
Like Aaron and Joshua in Exodus is like crazy.
26:20
And so perhaps if we see it as this huge undertaking on our
26:23
own, maybe there's an invitation there to do it in community.
26:27
Yeah, all throughout this series I've noticed.
26:30
I think I might have mentioned this to you when you did your,
26:34
when we were talking about the sermon earlier or something, but
26:37
I don't think I've mentioned this to you, Alex.
26:38
But I, I've noticed every single challenge of the series is
26:43
something God models for us perfectly himself.
26:46
He eats with us, he listens to us, he serves us.
26:51
And you're just like, wow, yeah, he upholds us.
26:55
All of these different things. Like you could take the topics
26:58
of each of the Sundays in the series and just be like, oh,
27:01
yeah, prime example, Jesus. Prime example Jesus.
27:03
Prime example Jesus. Turns out he is the best
27:07
neighbor. Yeah.
27:09
How was it? Which is why actually every week
27:13
has been a gospel centric sermon.
27:17
You know, my, my temptation was to use some of Paul and his
27:22
writings because we just spent all year in John.
27:25
But actually with Paul you get to hear it taught, but with
27:29
Jesus you see it modelled and taught.
27:32
So it was really hard to pull it outside of the gospel
27:35
narratives. Yeah.
27:38
Because that's where you see it the best.
27:40
And I think those things that we're, we're talking about that
27:43
Jesus calls us to do, I, I would very much agree with Aaron that,
27:47
that that's a lifelong process of, you know, sometimes feeling
27:51
like 2 steps forward, one step back, or even worse, sometimes
27:53
feeling like one step forward, 2 steps back.
27:56
I, I tend to, for myself, try and notice what are the, some of
28:00
the things that are blocking that.
28:02
So I think Jesus introduces this idea of like, well, yeah, love
28:06
God and love your neighbor. And then when you start to pull
28:09
all of the New Testament together, you start to, to twig
28:12
to the fact that, oh, well, actually loving God is only
28:15
possible when I really believe God loves me.
28:18
So it's kind of hard to believe. It's kind of hard to really love
28:22
someone that doesn't love you. And so if you're kind of
28:26
uncertain about that, then actually one of the things I
28:29
usually would say to people is, well, don't go away and try
28:32
really hard to love God. Well, try and go away and just
28:36
take in the fact that you are loved, that you are valued and
28:40
held and you know that God is for you and with you.
28:45
And loving your neighbor is really hard if you don't believe
28:48
God loves you and don't love yourself.
28:52
And so, so you know, if you hate your neighbor and hate yourself,
28:55
well, you probably are loving your neighbor as you love
28:57
yourself in some weird way. You're probably interesting them
29:00
just as you treat you. So it's very hard to be really
29:04
compassionate and really for your neighbor and really longing
29:07
for their good if you don't believe those things are true
29:10
for you. Yeah.
29:13
And so somewhere like, I think we just hit these roadblocks
29:17
along the way. And one of the things that God,
29:21
I think graciously and lovingly does is he comes alongside, if
29:25
you're willing and says, OK, let's move that roadblock out of
29:27
the way. And suddenly you maybe find
29:30
yourself in this new new place of being able to live into those
29:34
things better. But you'll never do it just
29:36
because you try really hard. Like it's not a try harder
29:40
series, you know, it's, it's a experience God's love for you
29:46
series and then put these things into place, I think.
29:52
Yeah. So what you mentioned, one of
29:56
the most important parts is 1 recognize.
29:59
And Alex, you just filled this in a little bit, the idea that
30:03
you're loved, the idea that you don't have to be perfect.
30:06
But then you also mentioned community.
30:08
So why? Why or what is it about
30:12
community and venturing into this space of learning to love
30:15
and serve people? What is it about community that
30:18
helps with that? Well, the first thing that comes
30:21
to mind is that especially in Christian community, the Spirit
30:23
of God is already in them also, and they have wisdom and lived
30:27
experience and the spirit and encouragement that we get to tap
30:32
into. And so we're Better Together.
30:35
We're stronger together, we're more aligned to the heart of
30:37
Jesus together and real community can you can also
30:41
practice the giving and the receiving.
30:43
And so it reminds you of your own humanity and maybe even
30:47
helps you love yourself a little bit because they're loving you
30:51
and you're loving them. Like overly simplistic language,
30:53
right? But like, it's practice, it's
30:56
not just belief up here in your head, it's practice, It's
30:59
embodied, it's lived out, it's incarnational.
31:02
And and that's how Jesus showed up in the world.
31:04
I mean, he could have walked around all by himself, but he
31:06
chose these 12 guys to go with him.
31:08
And I don't think it was just the rabbi teacher, you know,
31:12
model, perhaps it was his community.
31:15
He didn't do it by himself. And so maybe there's some wisdom
31:18
there for us. Yeah, I remember that.
31:22
I think over the last 8:00 or so years, I don't know exactly how
31:26
long, but because of the community that I'm around
31:31
primarily on a day-to-day basis, the staff, there's a certain
31:35
staff members who helped me learn how to be in deeper
31:40
relationship with some of our out in house friends.
31:42
Sure, because they did a much better job that I did that I
31:47
did. They taught me some of their
31:49
names they and then now like I just feel exponentially more
31:54
comfortable. In fact, I think of myself,
31:56
there's several of those those guys that hang around South that
32:00
I would genuinely consider my friends.
32:02
We laugh together, we joke together.
32:06
I didn't that didn't exist in my life prior, but it was people
32:10
like Kelly or Drew or some of these other staff members who
32:15
sort of in community modeled it for me and then allowed me to
32:21
kind of based upon the rapport that they built with these guys,
32:25
help me build relationships with them.
32:27
And now I'm way more comfortable in general with all of the the
32:32
unhoused folks that S serves and stuff.
32:35
I'm just like, I don't know why it's I just hadn't done it and
32:40
they showed me how I love that. Thoughts on that one Alex?
32:43
Community and serving. Yeah, I, I, I mean, I think
32:47
there's this richness to, I mean, I think in a greater
32:51
level, there's this richness to a group of people following
32:54
Jesus together. Like there's a connection there
32:58
that that tends to, I found, go beyond everything else.
33:02
I can run across the other side of that.
33:04
I can dash across the other side of the world to go somewhere and
33:07
meet with fellow followers of Jesus and there's a beautiful
33:09
connection there that is that that goes beyond ethnicity and
33:14
all those different things. And then you've got the people
33:17
around you that actually are able to bring up the best part
33:22
of you that they, they actually in this strange way, see you
33:29
better than you see yourself, you know, and, and, and so the,
33:34
the weird tension, I'd still stand by this idea that it's
33:37
very hard to love your neighbor. Well, if you don't love
33:39
yourself. But I think there's also this
33:43
level where I find it easier to call out somebody else's
33:47
giftings than my own giftings. Like if I'm close to them.
33:52
Oh man, you're so good at this. Like, I love seeing you do this
33:55
because you just really shine in these moments.
33:59
It's so much easier for me to be compassionate to someone I love
34:03
than it is to be compassionate to myself.
34:05
I want one of the questions I've, I've taken to asking
34:08
people in certain settings is, you know, how you've been
34:10
compassionate with yourself. And I want that for them and ask
34:13
them that. And I'm very rarely
34:16
compassionate with myself. So I think when we find
34:19
community, we tend to see ourselves reflected back in the
34:24
best way possible, like they tend to say of us, oh, you are
34:28
so good at this. And so I think that's what Aaron
34:31
felt when she got on stage, right?
34:32
She felt that sense of, I may not be sure about this.
34:36
This feels fun. It also feels like a huge
34:38
stretch. And.
34:40
And then you get this moment where your friends are like, oh,
34:44
no, no, no. You're doing exactly what I've
34:46
known you should do for years. And I'm so glad I get to be
34:50
there cheering you on. Yeah.
34:52
And. And so I was quite surprised to
34:54
find myself a pastor in some ways.
34:57
It was wonderful when I had friends that were like, oh, no.
34:59
Yeah. Total sense.
35:01
Brilliant. So excited for you.
35:03
And then when someone asked me to lead a church, I was like,
35:05
well, I'm not sure that's a good idea.
35:08
And to have people around that are like, oh, yeah, brilliant,
35:11
You should do that. That's what great community,
35:14
great friends do. They champion each other.
35:17
Yeah. And sort of feel that kind of
35:21
care. And when it's a Christian
35:23
community, I think Christianity done well has this capacity to
35:27
speak good over people. It's actually the core meaning
35:30
of prophecy, right? Like we tend to turn it into
35:34
predicting the future. It's like, no, it's
35:35
encouragement. It's, it's, you know, people are
35:40
being prophetic when they say to Aaron, oh, no, you're going to
35:43
rock it out on Sunday. It's going to be amazing.
35:46
Like we're so excited. And it's not predicting the
35:49
future. It's no, I see these gifts in
35:51
you and I'm speaking them out. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm encouraging
35:57
you to go do what you're meant to do.
35:59
I just think it's hard to fit everyone in to preach when
36:02
there's so many people that are good at it.
36:04
Yeah. That's how I feel about the
36:05
worship leaders right now. Like you're going on sabbatical,
36:08
I'm preaching a bunch. I still don't have enough
36:09
worship leader slots to or slots to give away so that they all
36:14
get a chance to lead a couple times.
36:16
So yeah, by the way, if you're wondering what the dinging is,
36:19
Alex is getting very loud notifications, evidently.
36:22
And my the really weird thing is it says do not disturb I I'm
36:26
like what is going on? Yeah, I don't know, but that's
36:29
why if you're listening, that's what's going on.
36:32
It's probably just from Laura and she's not on Do Not Disturb.
36:36
Yeah, she can bypass it all as she should be able to.
36:40
So I would love to sort of, as we come sort of to the close,
36:45
give you an opportunity as the person that God's called to, to
36:50
lead our outreach ministries and to leads a lot of those
36:56
initiatives. What's your hope and your
36:57
longing for South as a community to grow in some of these areas?
37:02
Could you sort of share some of that?
37:06
Yeah. I mean, I think first I'd like
37:08
to acknowledge that S is really good at this, and not just
37:13
recently, but I think over time. I remember back to when Family
37:17
Promise was coming here once a quarter or so, and I popped in
37:20
with some of the people serving the meal.
37:21
And I was shocked. So sorry, but I was shocked to
37:25
see church people sitting and talking with people and not
37:28
being judgmental. Because a lot of my church
37:30
experience has been church people saying things like, hey,
37:33
well, why don't you get a job? Well, why don't you fix this?
37:36
But why don't you fix this towards people who are receiving
37:39
help? And then they come in with all
37:41
of their ideas about how they pulled themselves up by their
37:43
bootstraps and they project that onto people that they don't even
37:47
know, right? That they hold those answers
37:49
tightly instead of loosely and and they don't get curious.
37:53
But when I came to South and I saw some of this, I was like,
37:56
wow, no, they're being curious. Like they're coming alongside
38:00
people. They're caring for people right
38:02
where they're at rather than telling them where they should
38:05
already be. And I found that super
38:07
encouraging. And the fact that I still
38:08
remember, it's pretty crazy, right?
38:10
And so I think we do this well. I think we get the heart of
38:14
Jesus in many ways, and we show up and we serve really well.
38:18
That doesn't mean there isn't room to grow.
38:20
That doesn't mean that there aren't people who haven't taken
38:22
that journey. We've definitely gotten
38:23
volunteers in the food bank who have come in wanting to serve
38:26
and do the right thing, you know, wanting to be the giver,
38:29
wanting to come in and, and preach the gospel and save a
38:32
bunch of souls. And that's lovely.
38:34
But then to watch them make their own journey along what I
38:36
would describe as a spectrum of like Jesus's heart for, for
38:41
those in need, for those who are seeking help and to see them be
38:45
changed as volunteers by serving in our environment, by
38:50
understanding, by learning about this dignity and agency and
38:53
image of God and giving and receiving mutually and allowing
38:57
people to contribute and seeing people as capable.
38:59
I think a lot of those things can help us change our heart and
39:03
our posture and maybe redo some of our old theology also that we
39:07
picked up from other places about how to look at people.
39:10
And so I guess I go back to curiosity to like, continue to
39:14
have curiosity, continue to press in.
39:16
Don't be afraid to be uncomfortable.
39:18
Don't be afraid to be convicted. Conviction is not the same as
39:21
condemnation. Conviction leads to repentance.
39:24
And God's heart for us is to look more and more like him.
39:27
That invitation's always open. Like he doesn't shut it down
39:30
just because we haven't figured it out already, right?
39:33
We're on a journey together with him.
39:35
And so to practice grace for ourselves and grace towards the
39:38
people we're in contact with and to not sit in our seats every
39:44
Sunday, going to go out on a be a little risky, not sit in our
39:47
seats every Sunday and consider that the highest and best
39:52
expression of faith because faith is living and active.
39:56
Like I said, like Jesus didn't just talk about healing people.
39:58
He went out and did it. And you just talk about serving
40:01
people like he literally did it. And so that's the invitation.
40:06
Yeah. So in a lot of ways, S like in
40:09
general is this is a strong suit.
40:12
And maybe it's also the sign from the Spirit, from the Father
40:17
that it's an area that we can double down on as a church
40:20
community. He's given people, he's a lot of
40:23
people come here who are understanding this.
40:27
And maybe that's also a settled nod that he wants us to take
40:31
that strength and lean into it even to some greater levels.
40:37
It's beautiful. Any final thoughts for us, Alex?
40:40
You're like ditching us, man. And what's going on?
40:44
Like in a couple weeks you're ditching us.
40:46
So this is your chance to give us your wisdom.
40:51
That's why yeah, I again would would agree with Aaron and our
40:55
assessment of South. I am always curious that I think
40:57
churches tend to lean well in One Direction.
41:00
And I might say this, the mainline churches of which S has
41:03
some heritage tend to lean really well into outreach and
41:09
service and evangelical Pentecostal church is the wing I
41:13
came from tend to lean better into evangelism.
41:17
The way of Jesus really actually takes both seriously.
41:23
You know, there there is a care, a service, a like an intentional
41:30
love for a person that goes beyond a top down, a
41:34
hierarchical system that really invites equality care, some of
41:40
the things Aaron's sketched out on Sunday.
41:42
And then there's a real ask into a faith story that we all share.
41:47
And for whatever reason, we tend to see, I tend to see this split
41:51
where you tend to lean one way heavily or another.
41:54
And so I guess my longing for South is that we get to embrace
41:57
both parts, as hard as that will be and as much as we'll probably
42:01
have a default, that we get to trust that when Jesus talks
42:06
about an invite in, not just a service that goes out, he was
42:10
serious about that. And that because this is how
42:13
Jesus tends to work. He, he's invite in, he's not,
42:17
you've had your life fixed now you're welcome in.
42:20
It's whatever you look like. There's a space for community
42:23
here and come as you are. And so all the people on Aaron's
42:28
list are actually welcomed through the doors and we get to
42:31
trust God to do the transformation part because as,
42:34
as Aaron said, like he's the savior, we're not, we're just
42:37
the neighbors. And so figuring out how we can
42:39
invite them in, not just to being served.
42:40
And I don't mean just in a pejorative sense, just like not
42:43
only that, but into the whole thing.
42:46
And, and again, to go back to your point, Aaron about modeling
42:51
Jesus does that again, like, isn't that the baffling thing
42:54
about Jesus? I, I always wondered and
42:56
probably thought for years, what does he even need these 12 guys
42:59
for? Like, I mean, put all 12 of them
43:03
together and they're not a fraction of Jesus capacity to
43:06
listen, to care, to transform, to heal.
43:11
And yet you have this beautiful moment in the Garden of
43:14
Gethsemane where he wants them to be awake, to stay with him
43:19
because he doesn't want to be alone.
43:22
Like that's Jesus, like modeling that kind of thing for us.
43:26
And so I really am just a big proponent of trusting him with,
43:30
you know, his whole thing and just saying, yeah, well, we're
43:33
going to welcome in whoever wants to step through the door.
43:35
And and it's not my job to change him.
43:38
Definitely his job and fortunately his job to change me
43:41
as well because I can't even change me.
43:43
And so that's, that's kind of like for me, the big passion,
43:46
like how can we do both and see see people served well and
43:50
transformed as well? And that.
43:52
Awesome. Well, thank you all for tuning
43:55
in and thanks Aaron for joining us.
43:57
Thank you as a joy. And yeah, Alex, thanks you for
44:00
joining us from the confines of your office and your cave I.
44:04
Mean it was worth. It was worth the effort to get
44:07
you in because you're only going to be here a couple more weeks
44:09
before you're sabbatical if you're tuning in.
44:11
That's what I'm talking about with him and ditching us.
44:14
Hopefully he's not ditching us forever.
44:16
He's just going on sabbatical. Although I was reflecting this
44:20
week, I was saying what feels like is like my, you're also
44:23
going on sabbatical from my our friendship.
44:26
Like what's what's up with that? Like well.
44:28
I don't know if that's true. I mean, that's what it feels
44:31
like. I'm just saying when you were on
44:33
sabbatical, we didn't talk once. But you know, we're much better
44:36
friends than we were. Well, I wouldn't blame you
44:39
either way. All right, thank you all for
44:41
tuning in and we'll see you next week for another episode.
44:44
It's great. Kirsty.
44:45
LG Podcast, Bye bye.