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Trust and Truth: Building Credibility in Uncertain Times - EP08 · The In-Between Tech and Trust Podcast

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Truth is the foundation for everything, but then it's trust
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that they say it's at the end of the day if people believe it.
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Welcome to the In Between Trust podcast, the podcast at the
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intersection of tech and trust. In this episode, I speak with
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Doctor Zeman Valda. He's investors, strategist, and
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advisor at the intersection of startups, strategy, and
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innovation. With decades of experience in
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building and backing early stage ventures, Zeeman brings a
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clearest perspective on why trust and founders outweighs any
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pitch deck and how brand trust is earned through truth,
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transparency, and consistency. We also.
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Explore why reality often outpaces truth in today's fast
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moving markets and how trust acts as the bridge between
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uncertainty and progress. This conversation is a deep dive
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into the mechanics of belief in people and products and the
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possibilities. Hi Simon, I'm incredibly happy
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to welcome you to the In Between Trust podcast.
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Thank you very much Jafar for having me and once again,
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congratulation for launching your own podcast about such an
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important topic as trust. Thank you.
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I'm also pretty excited about the topic as you can tell, but
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I'm even more so excited to diving into the intersection of
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startups investing strategy with you together.
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And that's also exactly my first question to you because you've
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been working at exactly those intersections for the past
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years. And when you hear the word
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trust, what is the first thing that comes to your mind?
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I think of course this is now a little bit biased from the
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current times, but I think in in times of uncertainty and rapid
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change as we experience it nowadays, trust becomes the most
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valuable currency. And this not only in business
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but beyond, I think it's trust is the most valuable currency in
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the entire society. And of course, if you refer to
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my own, let's say job and career, it's investing in
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startups, building brands, launching products, navigating
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misinformation, all this kind of things.
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But trust is what allows people to move forward.
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Allowing people to move. Forward is like one of the
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central aspects when it comes to investing into companies, right?
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Because basically you hand them opportunities to form their
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teams, form their organization and trust in the team and trust
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in the market or trust in a business idea, something that
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drove you forward and that also made you exchange with teams in
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the future. What really matters in that a
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sense and what is it's also something that you've learned
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across the past couple of years in that regard.
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OK, so you mean when when you invest into startups so
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specifically, Yeah, I, I think as a startups investor, of
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course you look at a bunch of aspects when thinking about
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investing into a startup. The business idea, the product,
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the market, is the business idea defensible or not?
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Of course, who's the founding team then legal and financial
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aspects, just to name a few. But there are a bunch of things,
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of course you're looking at before you invest or before you
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start thinking if you want to invest.
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But I think at the end of the day, investing in early stage
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startups, it means you have to have trust to the founders.
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You have to believe into the market and you have to be, you
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have to have confidence into their business idea.
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So I think these three aspects, especially when it comes to
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trust, are the ones that matter most when it comes to investing
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into a start. And from these three aspects,
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but this is not my personal opinion, I think it's the
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founders integrity that matters most because you know, as an
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investor, one thing you can you know for sure and that things
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never go as planned. So the the business plan will
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never exactly happen as it's written there on the on the deck
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and the pitch deck. So knowing that things never go
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as planned, that means you have to trust the founding teams and
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the founders that they will learn quickly that they will be
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brave enough and that they will they will adopt to a new
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situation when things turned out differently than expected.
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So I think this is the most important aspect and I think
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this is where it can distinguish successful from less successful
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startups are there, do they learn quickly enough in order to
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pivot to change something? Because as I just said, it never
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goes according to the plan. And then there is another
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important aspect regarding trust and investing.
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So especially for instance, in situation where a startup is
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working with the technology that is brand new or maybe even
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revolutionary, then data and insights are are scarce.
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Of course, no one knows exactly how this will work out.
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And then you have to trust your gut feeling.
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Meaning investing also means to trust yourself.
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So if you're not someone who trusts yourself, then maybe you
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shouldn't become an investor. So, but to to cut the long
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answer short, I think the founder integrity matters much
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more as far as trust is concerned than all the other
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slides in the pitch deck. At the end of the day, trust is
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all about, it's a personal thing.
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It's all about personal relationships.
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And I think, you know, most investors and startups, what
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they aim for is a long term partnership.
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And this is built on mutual beliefs and first and foremost
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on trust and not on contracts or terms.
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But you also pointed towards the gut feeling and in some
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conversations gut feeling is connected to the experience that
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one has or like as you pointed also out, the personal
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relationship that has been formed.
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What characteristics have shaped your experiences in coming to a
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gut feeling when you decide on which team is trustful enough
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for you to invest into? I think it's impossible to say
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either you have it or you who don't have it.
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I think what definitely helps is as you just said is experience
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after being, I don't know, more than two decades in business,
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having worked with different companies, variety of different
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people and so on. I think a lot of people develop
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this gut feeling, especially when it comes to who can I
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trust, who can't I trust. So this kind of things, but I
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think experience can also be dangerous, you know, on the
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other side, because if you have seen three ideas that didn't
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work out, then you maybe think, oh, this force idea, it's too
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close to the other three. Let's not invest, it won't work
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out. And you, you also have this
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other saying, you know, when you, when you are very
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experienced manager, you, you, you are biased to do the things
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always the same way you have been doing them and so on.
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So I think experience is a, is a coin with two sides.
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You know, on one side, of course, you needed to develop
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trust into yourself to have this gut feeling.
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But on the other side, experience can also lead to,
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let's say, wrong decisions. And I think especially when it
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comes to investing, but I think this is in a lot of situations
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like this, it makes sense to have a team that takes the
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decision at the end of the day. Because then you can, let's say,
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have elderly people with a lot of experience, maybe younger
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people with less experience, you know, and then you can somehow
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balance this different gut feelings.
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And when you look back into your career and the insights and
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teams that you've worked within, was there one moment that you've
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experienced that was quite insightful and has shaped your
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way of of viewing the approach that you take towards investing
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or forming relationships in the startup scenery?
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There's no, there's not one, let's say specific situation or
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the one single moment I can think of.
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I think I've been now in business for 25 years in
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different positions for industries and so on.
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And I think over this time I have been developing this gut
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feeling. It's also you know, I think
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trust also have it's a 2 sided thing.
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You know, it's not only everyone trusts you and nobody trusts me,
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but it's maybe person A&B trust each other, but person B&C not
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but C&B, yes. So therefore it's very difficult
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to describe. And the complexity for brands is
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even more like extensive than for persons or teams, right?
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Because you have like so many dependencies within markets, but
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also within the relationship to your customers.
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And according to the old school theory, like brand building is
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about creating trust that allows like higher price points or that
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is like also in comparison to non branded offers.
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According to your experience and view into the market, holds this
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still true? And if so, how do you do it?
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Yeah, this still holds true. So this, let's say original idea
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of branding is still, is still true.
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So that's exactly what brand management at the end of the day
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is all about. So it's about building a layer,
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let's say above or beneath or besides the product that adds
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value to the product that people are willing to pay for.
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So this is basically the overarching goal of brand
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management and then brands to have different functions.
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So the most obvious 1 is a brand differentiates a product from
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the other. So you go, you go to the grocery
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store and then you see, OK, this is another marmalade than this
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jam, OK, because they have other brands, easy.
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Then another function of brands it that that buyers, the ones
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that buy the brand, they use it to distinguish themselves, to
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profile themselves. So especially when you think of
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luxury goods like Louis Vuitton or Porsche or Rolex and so on,
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this is a brand function as well.
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Then they are legal functions. So you can register your brand
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and this then comes with protection with having a
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trademark for instance. But beside all these other
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functions, I'm I'm convinced that by far the most important
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function of brands is the trust functions.
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So the people see the brand, they trust the brand, they
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trust, trust their, hence the product and then they buy it.
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So this is the, if you achieve that, then all the rest will
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come. And now you're asked how to do
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it. OK, I think, I think there are
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three things you should pay attention, two things, three
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things you should do in order to establish distrust into your
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brand. The first one is the most
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obvious one. So the brand promise, what do
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you promise with your brand? This has to be kept by the
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product in the company. So or in other words, lying is
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bad for the repurchase, right? So if you lie, people buy the
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product once and then they're disappointed and they don't buy
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it again. So telling the truth, of course,
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in a compelling, creative, engaging way, this builds trust
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and distrust. You need to become a successful
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and strong brand. And then a second aspect
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regarding branding and trust is transparency.
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So of course, sooner or later something will happen, the
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product has a bug or there was a misbehaviour in the company or
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all these things. And then you really have to be
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transparent about it because transparency in mistakes or
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failures normally strengthens the brand rather than weakens
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it. And it strengthens the trust
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into the brand because we trust their brand is like people.
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We trust the honest people. And honest, to be honest means
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to be transparent, telling the truth.
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This is what happens. We are sorry we're working on it
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and not neglecting everything. So this is the second aspect,
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transparency. And then I would say the third
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aspect is consistency, which is very, very important when your
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goal is as it should be establishing trust.
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So only if you stick to your brand's promise for a longer
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time, then you can build this credibility that is crucial for
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establishing trust. Trust.
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If if you change your brand message constantly and if you
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change your brand positioning each and every month, then this
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won't build trust at all. So rather the opposite then so
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because if no one knows what you stand for then no one will be
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able to trust you. So I think these are the three
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aspects you have to take into consideration when you want to
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establish trust. So you've touched upon truth,
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transparency and consistency, and one of the main focus areas
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that I'm also interested into is technology.
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Do you have a take on how technology can be at the
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intersection of branding and trust, specifically in the
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context of the characteristics that you just named?
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I think so. The easy one is transparency is
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crucial here as well. So if you have the technology,
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maybe it won't work smoothly from the very beginning, then be
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transparent, tell the people, hey, we're working on it, this
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is just a better version, this will, we will improve that and
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so on. So transparency is, is crucial
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and then also the truth. So, yeah, of course if you if
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you want to go to the market with a new technology that maybe
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works 8090%, then don't promise in communication branding that
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you're already at 100%. Then rather choose let's say a
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brand message telling the people out there, we're working on it,
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we are improving day by day, we will be there soon, be patient
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and so on. So never over promise.
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And that specifically holds true when you launch a new startup,
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right? Because one of the main
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challenges is to also build like trust among innovators, but also
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amongst like the consumers and adopters that you want to use
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your product that you bring into the market.
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However, most of the time, the solutions that startup founders
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provide are not yet proven. So how do you create trust into
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something that's not yet proven, but that you want people to
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believe in too? That's a very good question.
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Of course, you're sure you're right.
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So the first thing when it comes to trust as a starboard, as a
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startup is you have to establish trust among investors.
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And once you secured your funding, then the next big
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challenge is to earn the trust of the market.
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And there, there are, of course, this heavily depends on the
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product you're offering. But basically there are a few
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ways how you can establish trust.
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And the first one is you can, for example, make your product
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available to customers more or less for free so they can try it
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out without having to pay for. This is what it's called a
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product let go to market motion. So like Zoom, you know, the
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video conferencing tool or Notion or Dropbox, these are all
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successful startups that have chosen this approach.
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So delivering the product more or less for free to the people
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so they can experience it, they can play with it around and if
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they like it, they can get the upgrade then they have to pay
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for. So this is one way you can
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establish the trust. Then another way, which is let's
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say the most traditional one, is you can build a strong brand, a
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strong brand that from the very beginning of your
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entrepreneurial journey, you establish a strong brand that
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people trust. So because you know the
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underlying idea is an Evergreen in brand marketing because
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people will think if they invest this amount of money into
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branding and communication, their product must be good.
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So this is what always happens. So people trust bigger brands
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more than smaller brands because they say they invest.
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So this is the underlying feeling they have.
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If they invest this amount of money in this big TV commercial
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campaign, the product has to be good otherwise they won't do it.
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So this is the second approach. You can choose this and then
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another, let's say way to establish trust, which is
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especially in B to BA, very promising 1 is you try to
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acquire very early customers that have A, how should I put
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that, that have a so-called batch effect.
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So it's in the startup speech, you call this hunting for logos.
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So hey, we need some great logos on the website.
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And the thing you do is that you want to have this customers
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because then you can be sure that other potential customers
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say, hey, if this big brands already work with the startups,
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with the startup, then the product must be good.
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So for instance, what we what currently, and it's mid August,
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what we're currently reading in each and every newspaper about
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Palantir, if the CIA is using Palantir, it can't be bad.
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We need it as well. So this is this hunting for logo
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things. And then maybe rather in a B2C
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environment, typical reviews, Google Review Trust Supply
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pilot, OMR reviews, all this kind of thing.
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And then also what helps, of course, are testimonials.
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So if Madonna is wearing this tight, then I wanted to,
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although I do not know if side SAS paid anything to Madonna.
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I don't know. But of course, is this, if a
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celebrity travels with a Horizon suitcase or wears this tight, it
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helps a lot. So it's a little bit when it
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comes to B to C it's the same thing like hunting for logos for
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B. When you now look into the speed
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that AI brings to the formation and like the foundation of
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organizations and specifically also for startup founders, do
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you think that what you just explained is like a traditional
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way? And will this ever change also
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given the speed that AI picks up?
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Or is are these constant requirements that founders can
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look for? I think these are constant, I
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wouldn't say requirements, but these are approaches or tools or
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way that will work more or less in any market, you know, So if
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you get something for free, the probability is high that you
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will try it out. If you really like it, the
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probability is high that you buy it.
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And to be honest, ChatGPT started the same way, you know,
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we all started playing with ChatGPT without paying something
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and then 2-3 weeks later the company bosses came and said,
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hey, we do have a data privacy issue.
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Now we do have the company account and now we have to
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register with the company mail and so on.
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But this was exactly that. Or you have a lot of companies
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who try to build a strong brand from the beginning.
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If you think of, I don't know, Flixbus, for instance, where
18:35
security is crucial, then of course they invest a lot of
18:39
money into brand building or 26, for instance, is another
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example, or Oatley. So all the things you eat there,
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it's really important to have trust because playing around
18:48
with a software product on your computer can't be that harmful.
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Eating something that isn't good really can cause some pain.
18:56
And then also this testimonials, testimony, batch effect and so
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on. This works.
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So if people say, hey, Microsoft is working with ChatGPT, we
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should, we should work with them too.
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So I think this mechanisms, they work in every situation.
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Of course it depends on your business model, on your product,
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which of these approaches is the most promising one, but all of
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of them can be promising regardless if there is AI or
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not. Then there is also a lot of talk
19:24
about the different generations like said millennials and like
19:30
approaching tools and also regarding their reputation or
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loyalty towards products. Do you see it as a bit like
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challenging to get younger generations in, like look looped
19:45
into a product cycle or interest them?
19:49
Or do you have overall an experience of how you also
19:52
communicate towards them in a way to keep them attracted to
19:57
like a new product that you want wanna bring to the market?
19:59
Of course, I know all these studies and all this research
20:02
that younger generations aren't that loyal than older ones.
20:07
To be honest, I'm not a big fan of this whole generation
20:11
concert. I think there is much more
20:13
things that we have common ground that.
20:16
Unifies US standard separates us in the in the generations.
20:19
So but, but in the last six years I've been working let's
20:23
say 80% on B2B startup. So they're the whole if you have
20:28
a buying center and different people are involved at the
20:30
client side if they buy the product or not.
20:33
And of course, this entire generation discussion isn't that
20:36
important, but a company we invested in as project where
20:41
project A is investment in the company I worked with.
20:45
So I supported them strategically.
20:48
Say no unity and they're no unity really.
20:51
The target audience is people in grammar schools or in high
20:54
school, and they seem to be quite loyal to the.
20:57
But if we now look into the link of founding something and also
21:02
and positioning your organization and the concept of
21:06
like truth aspect that you pointed out, what is true in
21:10
that regard overall truth in a sense such a huge world also
21:16
from a brand perspective, can there be multiple truths?
21:20
Is there a difference between truth and reality?
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I would love to dive into these intersections with you as well
21:27
and reflect upon it from a commercial, but then again also
21:31
user adoption positioning point of view.
21:34
I think this is very important, if not the most important aspect
21:38
of the entire topic of of truth or trust.
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These two terms are inextricable link to each other.
21:45
So trust and truth somehow belong together.
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And I would say especially for instance, what we discussed when
21:52
we spoke about branding, truth is the foundation for
21:55
everything. But then it's trust that decides
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at the end of the day, if people believe it.
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So people do not believe into the truth, they trust.
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And I think this is important. So, and I do have the
22:06
impression, especially nowadays in this, as we said at the very
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beginning, in this rapid changing times of uncertainty, I
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think people rather trust who they relate to than in fact.
22:18
And I think this is also the, the, the reason why the entire
22:23
idea of community is becoming so important, important not only in
22:27
marketing, but beyond. So you trust the people you
22:30
relate to more, even more than facts.
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And if, if we go a little bit towards this true thing, I think
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the main problem when it, when we speak about truth is that a
22:40
lot of people, they see trust as a binary thing, you know, yes or
22:46
no, zero or one, true or false. But I think this is wrong.
22:50
So I think you have to distinguish between truths and
22:54
reality, I think so. Reality is what happens.
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So reality is really the thing that is happening out there, and
23:01
truth is how we perceive and describe it.
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And of course, in this perception and description,
23:08
there is always room for interpretation.
23:10
If the two of us see the same event, which is reality, the
23:14
thing that is happening, if the two of us have to describe it,
23:18
even in the very moment it happens, most probably we will
23:21
describe it differently. So there's always room for
23:25
interpretation. And this is what truth is.
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Truth is how you perceive a thing, how you describe a thing,
23:31
or how I describe a thing. And I think it was Honda Arrant
23:34
once said that there is always more than just one truth, of
23:38
course. And I think this is right
23:40
because you said when you asked the question, you said in this
23:44
time and with technology and so on.
23:45
And now I think we do have, if we accept the thing that there
23:49
is reality and this is what is happening.
23:51
And truth is how we perceive it and how it is describe it.
23:54
But if the really reality is changing so quickly as
23:58
currently, so the reality then the reality most probably moves
24:04
faster than truth can be verified.
24:06
And this is really the problem we are currently facing.
24:09
So I don't think that the problem is this, let's say
24:12
mismatch or this distinction between truth and reality.
24:16
I think we all learned it somewhere in philosophy or I
24:18
don't know where. But I think the problem is
24:21
reality is moving. So fucking cost that the truth
24:25
has problems, difficulties to yeah, to be verified.
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So that's the moment to, let's say close the circle.
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That's the moment when trust comes in again, because then the
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only thing that we can do is trust.
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So at the end of the day, and this is something I I thought of
24:44
when I prepared for this podcast, I really think that
24:47
trust is what bridges the uncertainty and the speed we
24:52
currently experience on one side and the progress we need.
24:55
I think we would all agree that we need progress in order to
24:58
solve the challenges laying ahead of us as an entire
25:01
society. So we need this progress, but we
25:04
need to somehow, let's say, ignite this progress despite the
25:08
fact that the entire world around us is a mess and
25:12
uncertain. And trust is the one thing that
25:15
will gap these two things. So therefore we need trust.
25:18
And therefore trust is the most rabble current, most valuable
25:22
currency we currently have. I think your comparison of truth
25:26
and reality is so strong and it's also for me super
25:30
interesting to dive a bit further into that because they
25:36
really considering of how you would frame or how you would
25:40
also create a basis for dialogue to distinguish between both of
25:44
them, between different parties. How would you approach that?
25:48
I think this is, I think we first have so I I assume that
25:52
there is also a language problem.
25:54
You know, I think in English it works quite well with reality
25:58
and truth. But already in German,
26:01
Wirklischkeit Vardheit, really, Ted, you know, it's it's I think
26:05
we all have another understanding of these terms.
26:07
But I think what would help tremendously is we could all
26:11
agree that there is a difference between reality, the difference
26:16
between the things that happened, the truth, the one
26:19
thing scientists are looking for to discover, and on the other
26:22
side, the truth, how we as persons perceive it.
26:26
And as soon as we all agree, this is kind of a Harper US meta
26:30
communication layer. If we agree on the fact that
26:33
reality isn't truth, that truth is the perception and
26:37
description of a reality. And as different people can
26:41
describe and perceive it differently, there is the
26:44
possibility that different truces can exist peacefully
26:48
along each other or beside each other.
26:50
And if we agree on that, we can take it from there.
26:53
And I think this is the big task that we have to agree on this
26:57
separation. 100% agreed. And again coming back to our
27:02
earlier conversation on brands like organization overall, but
27:06
brands in specific like particular having their values
27:10
and also one like reputation. Is there like a difference in
27:14
communication that brands need when truth is in doubt?
27:19
I think truth can't be in doubt, no, But I think this is an
27:23
important aspect because you know, you know this old, this
27:28
old saying in advertising agencies and in marketing that
27:32
perception is reality. And of course, for from a
27:35
marketing perspective, if this is true, if you look for
27:38
instance, at, I don't know, Deutsche Bar now they said, I
27:42
don't know, 80% of the trains are on time, which is horrible.
27:47
OK. This mean one out of five is
27:48
not. And so if you talk to people,
27:51
they will tell you one out of five is on time, four of them
27:55
are delayed. So and there you have this
27:57
typical, let's say difference between the reality.
28:01
And I trust the Deutsche Bond that the numbers they publish
28:05
are OK. But of course, it's not the
28:08
perception of the people. But if you, I don't know, if you
28:11
live somewhere in southern Bavaria and every Saturday you
28:14
take the train to Munich, and every Saturday this train is on
28:18
time, then of course your perception is completely
28:21
different than if you have to commute between Berlin and
28:25
Hamburg. I think truth is always, yeah,
28:29
no, what I want to say perception is reality.
28:31
I think this, this has nothing to do with the philosophic,
28:34
philosophical concept of truths and reality and trust and so on,
28:38
but as a shortcut for marketing people.
28:41
Reality is what the people think it is.
28:43
And that then again, shapes the way that brands need to
28:45
communicate, right? Exactly.
28:47
So you don't you, if you, if you are the, let's say, marketing
28:51
manager at Deutsche Bahn, you shouldn't tell the people no,
28:55
you're wrong. 80% of our times are on time because you can't
28:59
change their perception. So think about the smarter way
29:03
and communicating not by agreeing that four out of five
29:07
times are delayed, but by putting yourself in the
29:10
consumer's shoes and then try to come up with a message.
29:14
I don't know. We're far from perfect, but
29:16
please trust us, we're working on it with everything we have.
29:19
And this reframing of the perception or communication that
29:23
brands can pick up on, I guess, is something super strong for
29:27
positioning, but also for, you know, creating moments of trust.
29:31
And as we're coming to an end of this podcast episode, I wanted
29:35
to have some moments of trust with you that are personal, that
29:39
are quick, and ideally that are also intuitive.
29:42
And, and there are four of them that I'm now going to introduce
29:46
to you. And ideally you would answer
29:47
them in like short sentences or something that comes from your
29:51
gut feeling. And the first one that I wanted
29:53
to start with is a moment when you lost trust and learn
29:57
something crucial. I'm sorry I can't think of a
30:00
specific situation right now, but of course I've been
30:04
disappointed a few times as all of us in my life by people I
30:09
trusted. But nevertheless, and this is
30:11
maybe, this is maybe the learning.
30:12
OK, let's come directly to the learning.
30:14
So I still try to trust everyone until they prove me wrong,
30:19
because I'm convinced that this approach leads to a better,
30:22
easier and healthier life than being suspicious old.
30:25
Second moment, A team that surprised you with their
30:30
strategic clarity or emotional intelligence.
30:33
OK. Of course I don't want to
30:34
mention one specific teams, but I can answer the question
30:38
elegantly with saying my kids. So my wife and I, we do have 12
30:43
year old twin daughters and they often surprise us with their
30:47
clarity and their emotional intelligence because I think for
30:50
most parents it's very difficult to see their children growing
30:54
up. And I have to admit also I
30:57
forget it from time to time. That's 12 year old girls are no
31:01
longer children. You know they are young adults
31:03
and they understand much more than I think than you.
31:06
And a third moment, Was there a belief or a mental model that
31:11
you had to let go? Of I think in the last years I
31:14
had to let go the belief that politicians think about their
31:18
country first and only second, about themselves in their part.
31:21
OK, diving into the aspects of political trust is like a whole
31:25
new episode. I look forward to having you
31:27
back. But for now, let's close the in
31:31
between moments with a buzzword in the VC or strategy space that
31:35
you wish you see you retired. There is this.
31:39
There's this mantra many people know from the Silicon Valley
31:43
because it's Elon Musk often quotes it Act fast and break
31:47
things. And I really hate this mantra.
31:50
And I think this is really completely wrong because
31:52
innovation and disruption aren't about breaking things or
31:56
destroying things. Innovation is about creating
32:00
something new, something better, something superior that will
32:04
then maybe sooner or later, replace the existing.
32:08
Well, that was so insightful and in German you would say quotes
32:13
violation, but I really enjoyed talking to you.
32:16
Thank you for those moments that we wrapped up the session with.
32:19
Thank you for also the dive into the different kinds of aspects.
32:24
And again, I extend my warm like invitation for like a follow up
32:29
on the political aspects. But for now, thank you so much
32:32
for joining us, joining me on the In Between Trust podcast and
32:37
for the conversation. Thank you very much once again
32:40
for having me. And the pleasure was all mine.
32:42
Yeah.