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Guest Intro - Jeff Sample · Wired to Build

0:00
Welcome to Wire to build the podcast.
0:02
Exploring how owners, operators, and builders navigate the
0:06
system's decisions and. Reality shaping.
0:09
The built environment. I'm your host, Nick Caravella,
0:11
and as always, I'm glad you're here because this.
0:14
Show isn't about chasing tools or buzzwords.
0:16
It's. About understanding how work
0:18
actually gets done, where it breaks down.
0:21
And what it takes to build with clarity at scale.
0:23
So whether you're an owner, a builder, or someone living in
0:25
the space in between, you're in the right.
0:27
Place Let's get Wire to Build. One thing I've been thinking
0:32
about lately is why construction technologies become essential
0:36
while others quietly disappear. Because if you spend enough time
0:39
in this industry, you start to realize the tool usually isn't
0:42
the whole story. The real question is whether if
0:44
it's the reality of the work, the people, the workflow, and
0:47
the problem it's actually trying to solve.
0:49
From the job site to the boardroom, from emerging
0:51
technology to hard earned field experience, Wire to Build is a
0:55
place for honest conversations about how our industry works,
0:57
where it's going, and what it takes to build with priority.
1:00
So to help us dig into that, I'm joined today by Jeff Sample.
1:03
Jeff has spent years traveling across the industry through the
1:05
Contact Roadshow and his work with Bluebeam, giving him a rare
1:08
vantage point on how construction technology actually
1:11
lands inside real companies, real teams, and real project
1:14
environments. Jeff, great to have you here.
1:16
Nick, thanks for having me, man. It's great to be on the other
1:18
side of the microphone. Yeah, I know.
1:20
Let's give you a break from Flanigan production.
1:23
I'll take the load this time. And thank you for having me on
1:26
the show last year. Had a great time.
1:28
With you, it's always great to have you on.
1:30
And, and I think that's the cool part about this podcasting.
1:33
It is nice too, by the way, to give up and the, the weight of
1:36
producing the weight of all of that and, and just sit back and
1:39
talk. And I kind of I'm, I'm
1:41
appreciative, you know, more podcasts the better.
1:44
So anybody listen? That's a podcaster, Yes.
1:45
Start a podcast, we'll help you. Before we dive in, I want to
1:49
acknowledge our founding sponsor, Avocado.
1:51
Avocado partners with owners and delivery teams on complex
1:55
capital programs to help them make technology work, aligning
1:58
strategy, implementation and real world execution across the.
2:02
Full project life cycle. If you're investing in
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construction technology, digital delivery or data initiatives and
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Avocado helps teams move from intention to
2:13
impactyoucanlearnmore@avocado.com. Very excited to get started.
2:20
I think, you know, I know you well, people who have listened
2:23
to your show probably know you're even better.
2:25
But I want to go back to the beginning, get to some of the
2:28
behind the scenes that people might not know.
2:31
And so tell me a little bit about when did you first get
2:34
interested in construction? When did that first enter your
2:37
life? Well, so I will take you back a
2:39
little bit further. So everybody, we haven't haven't
2:41
done this one in a long time, but I'm an Ike T architect by
2:45
trade. So that's what I did for a
2:47
living for a majority of my career.
2:50
However, those who know me and and have listened, no, I'm a ski
2:54
bum at heart, right? Like I, I can't be a ski bum and
2:57
function, but I am a ski bum at heart.
2:58
So I moved to the mountains of Colorado right out of college,
3:03
just wanted to be a ski bum for a while and was bumping chairs
3:06
as a lifty. And it happened to be a perfect
3:09
time in the ski industry where technology was hitting.
3:12
And so I got an opportunity to move from lifts to IT because of
3:17
some of my softer skills. And luckily some people, right,
3:21
it kind of goes back to like the people in life that take the
3:23
time to explain things to you because they appreciate a level
3:27
of intelligence and grit. And so it was really fun, man.
3:31
I had AI, had a quite a few people who would just give you
3:34
things to do. I had a guy named Steve that
3:36
handed me some cabling and said, go underneath that deck right
3:39
there and bring me it up on the other side.
3:42
And I did. And he said, well, you want to
3:44
know what this cable does? And I was like, yeah, I do.
3:46
I learned how to punch down cable, learned what, you know,
3:49
AP traffic was and to everybody listening, that'll be nothing.
3:52
But, you know, the little blips and bites that go over the
3:54
Internet that goes through cables at point, at one point.
3:57
So Fast forward, I just construction and the ski resort
4:01
industry were about 20 years apart in that, right.
4:05
If anybody remember skiing back then, you used to punch a ticket
4:07
with a, with a punch or a, or a stamp, and that was your day,
4:11
right? And it was easy to figure out or
4:13
hide or sneak on. And, and so we started
4:15
digitizing everything, everything from barcode scanner
4:18
to, you know, printing the tickets out and then, you know,
4:21
all the way up to RFID. And what was cool for me was I
4:24
came up through the ranks building architecture and then
4:27
got a chance to jump onto the other side when software world
4:32
went through its agile development phase, which I would
4:35
equate to the lean phase in construction.
4:38
Like they really technology hit, then you figure out what you're
4:41
doing and then you move to that. And so I got to jump over and
4:44
help teams go from waterfall to agile and do development
4:48
operations, which really helped me like learn cloud
4:51
environments, earn integrations, learn how the world was gonna
4:55
work. And I had this fantastic run and
4:58
then it ended and we can come back to you can be on top and be
5:04
on the bottom the next day. It, it truly happened in a six
5:08
month period to me. So I have a maybe that is a scar
5:13
or maybe it's just a real hidden, a good reminder that
5:16
that's what can happen. So I found myself with no gig
5:19
and I happened to run into somebody that was an HR director
5:23
for a masonry contractor and their May and their IT person
5:27
was a 40 year job cost accountant that was ready to
5:30
retire and the timing was right. So it was a large masonry
5:33
contractor here in Vail, Co build custom homes, not the
5:37
little ones you're thinking of. We're talking huge Aspen Vale
5:42
type projects. So jumped in and in about 8
5:47
months was like I'm out of here this is killing me.
5:51
But two things came together. I first went and played softball
5:56
with the field teams. I got asked by an estimator if I
6:01
wouldn't mind playing softball. Went and played softball.
6:04
I met all the people from the field and I realized the amazing
6:09
stories and, and the cool personalities.
6:13
And I also realized because I moved from this IT office guy to
6:18
just the really bad second baseman that they like to make
6:22
fun of. And they would be like, hey, can
6:24
you fix my phone? Like this doesn't work.
6:27
And I'm like, yeah, man, like that's my job.
6:29
Like what can I do to help you? And all of a sudden we created
6:32
this relationship and I started to understand just how bad it
6:36
was. So that's my entry into
6:38
construction and and tech. But on the same time, I went to
6:44
an AGCIT conference is what it was called back then.
6:48
And I met James Benham, Rob McKinney and Josh Bone and they
6:52
were presenting on this construction technology of the
6:55
future. And I realized I didn't.
6:58
Nobody had told me that when I was in ski, but I was sitting at
7:01
the same point in construction said wow, I have incredible
7:04
people and really interesting technology.
7:06
And I think something of that just stands out from this origin
7:10
story of your is the IT story of just the ski experience.
7:16
And so you were working a lot with like, OK, we have guests,
7:19
they come through the mountain, they have to go through this
7:22
journey and we have to collect this data and we have to do all
7:25
of these things, which is like its own unique little microcosm
7:28
of construction pain today of millions of trades people
7:32
working and data collection being miserable.
7:35
And so it's, it's interesting that you came up in those routes
7:38
and then we're able to have that observation of like, like, like
7:42
the same problem, different space.
7:44
And, and then you chose to lean in.
7:47
And I know those names because I, I've heard them on your show.
7:50
So maybe this is a great opportunity to get into the the
7:53
origin story of Contact Roadshow.
7:55
And you know, how did your experience at the the AGC event
8:00
start to to create this this new leap?
8:03
So it's really cool too. And I'll, I'll draw an even
8:06
bigger comparison too, because the thing about construction and
8:09
and ski is there's no infrastructure up on that
8:12
mountain originally. It's last mile work.
8:14
And again, it is people who take the time when you screw
8:19
something up to explain it to you.
8:21
And I had this wonderful CFO of a of a private resort.
8:25
I was working on something and running around and he stopped me
8:28
and he said, no, I need you working on the scanners at the
8:32
lift. And I was like, but these are
8:34
they can't create the tickets or you got this down And he goes,
8:37
no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That is the point at which I
8:39
realized my revenue. That is the data.
8:42
I need to know how many people are on my mountain at that
8:45
first. And all of a sudden I realized,
8:47
oh wow, point of attack is different, especially when it
8:50
comes to data. So you have that.
8:52
And so again, it's just like crap, I can fix a lot of things,
8:56
but I need to know the business and how the business functions
9:00
and what they need to function optimally.
9:03
And I got to focus my efforts there first and work my way
9:07
back. And it's just, again, you're
9:10
right, it teaches you this flow of why data's important, right?
9:14
Why anything's important. It's not important if it goes
9:17
somewhere to die, if you're just doing it to do it, why are you
9:20
doing it? And, and it takes, you know,
9:24
learning a whole business, especially in IT.
9:26
Like you start to learn how everything connects together and
9:29
that, and that was part of it. And then you know, when you talk
9:31
about the origin story, so the contact Trio was the origin of
9:37
the show itself. It was James Benham, Josh Bone
9:41
and Rob McKinney. And James Benham was the
9:43
inventor of smart bid. And he realized at that point in
9:46
time that construction had a technology problem, but didn't
9:49
really know they had a construction technology problem.
9:52
So he had and he was building software.
9:55
So he literally had to educate the industry and find a way.
10:00
And he found the podcast media. And so he started with the
10:03
podcast and started going, and I was on the show early on and
10:08
eventually came over to the show.
10:11
You know, James was the, you know, the technologist, let's
10:15
call it Rob was a safety and technology forward and Josh was
10:20
the BIM at that point. You know, we've all gone in
10:24
different directions in our careers, but I joined the group
10:27
and it was the contact crew. At the same time of doing that,
10:31
James invented the Contact roadshow because what we
10:35
realized at that point in time was there there was Autodesk
10:39
University pro core Groundbreak was brand new.
10:42
Honestly Blue Beam ex-con was getting hot but there was like 3
10:48
national things, maybe 4 and it just wasn't approachable to the
10:53
larger industry. So instead of bringing them and
10:57
spending thousands to go to AU and no effect, like those shows
11:01
are awesome, but how could we bring it to the people?
11:04
So they picked 6 cities to bring the roadshow too and we went
11:08
out. And that was the early days man.
11:10
Like PlanGrid, open space. I'm trying to remember some of
11:14
the others Rumbix just acquired, you know, and a lot that I can't
11:20
remember because they don't exist.
11:23
So we'll get into that too. But, and it was like 15 of them.
11:27
And we charged just enough that, you know, covered the costs of
11:31
the food and everything and gave them skin in the game to show up
11:35
and they could go and learn. And we did that for three or
11:40
four years. And in all honesty, a lot of the
11:44
associations, a lot of the local entities figured out this was
11:49
important and they started doing it.
11:52
And so it became we were competing with them.
11:55
So instead of competing with them, we we turned off our end
11:59
and became speakers for those things.
12:01
And the road shows. We also learned this whole idea
12:05
of entertainment. You, you educate, you entertain
12:09
and you don't sell on stage, right?
12:11
That's not what people are there for.
12:13
If they, if you touch them, they will come and find out and they
12:16
will go and find it in the in the hall itself.
12:19
So that's sort of the origin and sort of the evolution.
12:22
Now. The crew itself as a podcast
12:25
stayed along. James exited and sold smart bid
12:28
to construct connect and it no longer fit his world.
12:32
And so I took it over and I've been running it ever since and
12:35
it is now moved over to the Construction Progress Coalition
12:39
because I believe as Nathan does at the CPC, that it takes 5O1C3,
12:46
it takes people in the middle with the skin in the game is the
12:50
industry itself to continue. So that's sort of our, our
12:55
origin evolution and we all went out.
12:59
I mean, personally for me, I, I did some time with, I worked for
13:03
James and I worked as a consultant for James.
13:05
Then I moved and went to esub and then I took a chance on a
13:09
startup called Join and did 3 1/2 years with them and, and it
13:14
was kind of cool because smart bid was bidding, you know, bid
13:17
management. And then esub was project
13:20
management for trade contractors, which I've always
13:22
been close to join. I went out there to figure out
13:26
more of that precon process and that collaboration and
13:31
collaborative delivery and contract methods and trying to
13:35
bring trades in earlier and design for manufacturing and
13:37
assembly to the middle. And then as runs happen, right.
13:40
Like I went back out on my own for a few years and got
13:44
refocused and tried a couple of different things, failed a few
13:48
times and, and, and then I landed over here at Bluebeam,
13:51
which by the way, if you go all the way back, is this proof on
13:53
LinkedIn, you can find the article, my first article I ever
13:56
wrote after I went to that AGC IT conference was Bluebeam, a
14:00
digital gateway drug. And so I'm kind of full circle
14:03
back here and I'm over here now running strategy for our global
14:08
industry development group, looking at Bluebeam, our
14:11
acquired companies, our Nemechek owned companies and our strategy
14:16
to connect with the trades because you know, you know,
14:19
things are crazy now. So that's sort of wow, I haven't
14:22
done that whole thing in a while.
14:23
That's me in a nutshell. It's great to kind of hear all
14:27
the story and the kind of the moments and points of reflection
14:31
cuz I feel similar. Haven't bounced off a couple
14:34
walls myself of just you go, you try it, you try it within a
14:38
specific business model and you learn the walls that you bump
14:42
into the things that really were successful.
14:44
And like this is stuff we're really going to drill into the
14:46
next episode. But it's just that like that,
14:49
that this industry is so people driven and it's so field driven.
14:53
And, and that's why I'm excited to have you on the show.
14:56
And so I almost want to continue pulling back a little bit
15:00
because you were talking about, you know, working with
15:02
contractors, visiting them, they, you know, you saw the
15:05
organization start to emulate what you were doing on the
15:08
roadshow, making it more available.
15:10
And to me that's like a massive success.
15:12
Like, you know, the idea of like putting oneself out of a job and
15:16
that actually being an aspiration is to me, a good
15:19
thing. I mean, you made you modeled
15:20
what it could be and then people emulated it and, you know,
15:23
competition aside and have to stop the roadshow.
15:27
Like to me, that was a success. You you move the industry in a
15:30
direction that made it more approachable.
15:32
And so I'm curious, just to get back to it is, you know, when
15:35
you were visiting those contractors throughout this
15:38
journey, what were patterns that you started to see between, you
15:42
know, what they needed, how tech was meeting them and where the
15:45
opportunities were that kind of led you through this tech
15:49
journey? So that's it.
15:52
That's it. That's a good one.
15:53
And it, it really goes back to the earliest things I learned
15:58
sitting at a help desk in the early days and understanding
16:02
that the person on the other end of the phone has a job to do and
16:06
their job is not computers and my job is computers.
16:09
And there's this misnomer that the tech guy's the smartest guy.
16:14
And I used to, I used to hear that actually from, I'll be
16:17
quite frank, like a lot of the workers in our masonry world
16:21
were Spanish speaking and they, they call you, Oh, you're super
16:24
smart, You're the this, you're that.
16:26
And I'm like, no, because hand me a trowel, hand me any brick
16:31
and block and all I'm going to do is struggle like I am
16:35
horrible. All I am is really good at
16:38
technology and understanding how to make it work.
16:41
But you do a different job. And that's true if it's AP,
16:44
that's true if it's HR, that's true if it's project management,
16:48
right? Their job is to run jobs.
16:50
My job is to make technology work and to make it
16:53
approachable. And so it goes back to the
16:56
person having empathy for that person, what they need to get
17:00
done, understanding that, and then figuring out how to get
17:03
them there better. And we'll get way into this, but
17:06
everybody's trying to jump from that beginning all the way to
17:10
that end. You hear it all the time.
17:12
We can 100X what you're doing. We can.
17:15
I don't need 100 X. There's a lot of steps in
17:18
between. If I can make step 1-2 and three
17:20
faster to get to four, that's almost better, right?
17:24
I just make their lives easier, get them able to go home sooner.
17:28
And do what? Understand that what in life is
17:31
important isn't just this job, man.
17:34
And it goes all the way back to that.
17:37
That's what we realized was James preached this when we got
17:41
there and, and I believe it, it's people, it's process, and
17:43
then it's technology. And if you don't do it in that
17:46
order, if you don't focus it on that order, it's never going to
17:50
work. So that's what we realized was
17:53
go out there and connect with the people and understand them.
17:57
And, and Nick, what I realized getting to go from contractor to
18:01
contractor and to speak to field teams, I used to think it was
18:07
this like nascent ability for people to like put up walls and
18:11
not want to listen. And then I realized everybody's
18:14
job is their world and connecting with somebody else in
18:18
that job is very difficult. Like I'm trying, I'm busy, like
18:22
nobody really goes to work. And it's like, I mean, there's
18:24
probably a few people, but like, oh, I got like 3 hours to do
18:26
today. Like I'm a spend 5 drinking
18:28
coffee, hanging out, thinking of things.
18:31
That's not how it works. So you go in and they're be this
18:35
disconnect and you could just ask a few questions of all the
18:39
different groups. And there's also politics and
18:42
there's also feelings and there's all those things.
18:45
So you could go in as as a consultant and gather the data
18:49
and the information and get a picture of what's going on.
18:53
And then if you had the fortitude, and I've always said
18:56
this, and I say this, said this when I was a consultant, like,
18:59
listen, they can beat you up forever because you're here.
19:02
I only have to hold off and not tell them where the information
19:05
came from for a short period of time and I will go away.
19:09
So trust me, it's I'm not going to tell them where this came
19:12
from. I'm going to give them my
19:13
opinion on what is broken and what I saw from the data.
19:16
And nine times out of 10, you could disarm them and realize
19:22
they could realize the opportunities for systems to
19:25
work together, for information to work together, to be better.
19:28
This is, this is, it's funny because we both interviewed Rob
19:31
Sawyer like almost on top of each other.
19:34
And so, and he, he talked about people, process technology as
19:38
well. And he even talked too about one
19:41
of the, one of the key things was like, we have a lot of folks
19:44
right now who are running in the industry and trying to 100 X
19:47
stuff and they have 0 empathy for why we were even doing it
19:52
the way we're doing it in the first place.
19:54
And you and you talked about the jobs to be done, which is funny
19:57
because that's, that is a drum that I feel like I've started to
20:00
continuously beat at every company.
20:02
And like, OK, I understand we're talking about a feature, but
20:05
like, how does this actually help who?
20:08
And if we can't articulate? That then we're building
20:12
something for no one, really trying to avoid getting ahead of
20:15
ourselves. But it that's something that I
20:17
think is a really common thread from the folks you talked to,
20:20
folks that I've been talking to, is that, you know, there's so
20:23
many people who want to like eliminate the RFI without the
20:27
understanding of why an RFI exists and how critically
20:30
important it is to actually getting the job done.
20:34
What's your read on that? I mean, I, I will go back
20:37
because I I'll never forget the first article that came out
20:40
about a job with 0 RF is and I went.
20:44
So do you mean they never had a question?
20:47
Because basically what you're telling me is they found another
20:50
way to ask questions. OK, so that just doesn't make a
20:55
lot of sense to me. RF is are not bad in and of
20:59
themselves. The way we've weaponized them
21:02
and use them as an industry got out of hand and is out of hand
21:05
still probably. But in its ultimate fact, it's
21:09
a, you know, in its essence, it is a designer and an owner
21:14
having a vision and an intent and AGC in a trade trying to
21:18
deliver on that intent and asking are we fulfilling that
21:21
intent? Because we don't think so in our
21:24
expertise, right? That that is this thing where
21:27
people are like scared of their own expertise too.
21:31
It's like, but they don't understand and what it means to
21:33
get in the arena, right? There's this and I go to Brené
21:36
Brown on this. Like, by the way, through all of
21:38
this process, like the coolest thing for me was I went from a
21:41
very highly technical position into marketing and messaging and
21:46
product and product development and sales and enablement.
21:50
And I've had this, this, this view.
21:52
So I think some of these parts and pieces make more sense when
21:56
you when you have that opportunity to see it out there
22:00
and say, like, you know, I'll go back to the Brené Brown, like we
22:03
need to take that architect, that engineer, that GC, whoever
22:08
and the, and the specialists and they have their expertise and we
22:12
get them in the arena and we let them not fight it out.
22:17
We let them rumble. That's what Brene calls it.
22:20
It's a rumble. But the idea in construction has
22:24
become something about I have to win.
22:27
And it's really not about winning.
22:29
It's about creating something that is bigger than the sum of
22:34
its parts. It's the architects and it's the
22:36
owner's need, the architects and intent, the engineers expertise
22:42
and then the GC and trades understanding of how it can can
22:46
be constructed and then how it will operate as an operations
22:50
team, right. You got to go down that road
22:51
too. And if we, if we go in ready to
22:54
defend, not defend, but to supply information on our
22:58
expertise and we all can work together, we can come out with
23:01
something bigger. And you know, I've said this on
23:03
stage all the time. It's like going to an escape
23:06
room by yourself. You're not listening to the
23:08
show, you're still in the escape room.
23:10
If you go with a bunch of your friends and you listen to each
23:12
other, you get out of the escape.
23:13
That's a really wonderful analogy.
23:15
And like the whole time you're talking about this, the, the
23:18
rumble and the, the biggest statement, I think was the
23:22
afraid, being afraid of the expertise because, you know, I
23:25
think fundamentally construction has become about risk and the
23:29
avoidance of it rather than the management of it.
23:33
And I don't know how we got lost down that road.
23:35
And like, this is one of my hills that I like why I left
23:38
architecture. Your traditional practice of it
23:41
is like architects, designers have become so inherently afraid
23:44
of risk that they are afraid of their expertise.
23:47
And they're often means and methods or let's like what?
23:51
And it's OK. And I think these are things
23:54
that you're, you're probably learning too as you've gone into
23:57
the marketing realm. Like the way I have is like when
24:00
you're building systems and reasoning processes and ways for
24:05
evaluating an approach, you're allowed to lean on your
24:08
expertise and explain like, hey, this is the decision we made.
24:12
This is the context around why we've made this decision.
24:16
And hey, Mr. Contractor, Mr. Engineer misses Engineer,
24:21
whatever. What is your read on this?
24:24
Because we have to rumble and get down to the nitty gritty.
24:27
And if what I'm saying is not buildable or not engineered
24:30
correctly, I need you to tell me.
24:31
The baby is ugly. And for some reason, we've
24:34
gotten so afraid of the being unsure that we're not allowing
24:38
conversations to happen that just create downstream heartburn
24:43
like so. You're absolutely right.
24:45
And, and, and I think it's cool because man, you're really
24:49
getting me to go back kind of through this process too,
24:51
because if you think about the roadshow, right, we, we adapted
24:55
and gave it back and we took some headache, I'll be honest,
24:58
like booking 6 shows across the country and coordinating that is
25:01
not easy. And then getting all the
25:02
marketing and all that out of there.
25:04
So it was great to turn that over and then just say, hey,
25:06
like, I'm going to go do what I'm really good at.
25:08
And that's the speaking portion of it.
25:10
Or at least what I thought I was really good at.
25:12
But I was doing, jeez, at the height of this, man, I can't
25:15
even tell you. I've done 4050 speeches a year,
25:18
talks ever. And when I went out on my own
25:22
and had time to think, somebody asked me, hey, how long have you
25:25
been doing this? And how many of you, how many of
25:27
those talks have you done then? You know, it's hard to, to
25:31
quantify, but a lot. And they said, well, how many
25:34
more can you do? And I'm like, well, I don't
25:36
know. They keep asking and they said,
25:38
well, then does that mean you're actually changing anybody's
25:40
mind? You're actually having an
25:42
impact. And I really had to stop.
25:44
I really had to think. And I realized maybe I'm not.
25:49
And it just so happened I was reading the book Think Again by
25:52
Adam Grant. And I realized that on stage,
25:56
the personalities that we were utilizing fit the archetypes of
26:00
a preacher, A proselytizer. Like that's what what Adam gets
26:04
into is you cannot preach change at people.
26:08
You cannot proselytize it. You cannot lawyer it.
26:11
You cannot think the other. And I'm sorry, Adam, I'm going
26:15
to get it wrong on who they all are.
26:17
But there's also then the the politician.
26:21
So it's like the politician, the legal and the preacher.
26:24
Like you can't, I was an evangelist at one point.
26:27
You can't evangelize people into change.
26:30
You've got to give them a place to think about the opportunities
26:38
and make up their own mind to change.
26:40
In fact, it was proven during COVID, like the more you preach
26:45
that someone about say vaccination and again, not don't
26:48
care where you land on it. They actually dug in further.
26:51
But if you gave them an opportunity to think, they there
26:56
was this room to change their mind and to because you're not
26:59
changing their mind. They are.
27:01
And it's the same thing, Nick. Like we go into those
27:05
conversations trying to to preach at each other instead of
27:11
have a conversation and allow people room to think like, hey,
27:15
this is what I'm experiencing from this.
27:17
What is your take on it? Hey, OK, I see how we're not
27:20
lining up. And instead of it being a fear
27:24
of being wrong or not the smartest in the room, it's just
27:29
a conversation of priorities, just a conversation of expertise
27:32
is just coming together in the middle.
27:34
And again, it so that's why during that time I changed
27:39
everything I do on presenting and workshops and really stopped
27:44
focusing on what was in here for me and cultivating what's out
27:49
there in the room. That's the other thing that, you
27:52
know, really been focused on is the the collective intelligence
27:57
is the most powerful thing, not any one person's individual
28:02
intelligence. And how can you harness that
28:05
collective intelligence and help it move through the process of
28:09
understanding where to go next? I think that's where more now
28:14
than ever, I don't want to get ahead.
28:15
But now more than ever, that's a critical component.
28:19
Yeah. And I think This is why both of
28:20
us like enjoy being part of the Construction Progress Coalition
28:24
because it does create that exact space.
28:26
The at the AAC Integration Summit, which this episode will
28:29
release after we come back. But it's always like bringing
28:35
people from all the different views without the project
28:37
pressure, I think is always the big beauty because we are able
28:41
to be vulnerable and and rumble without the risk of messing up a
28:46
project deliverable, which I think it's is incredibly
28:49
healthy. And you know, this is where
28:52
perhaps like understanding, you know, you're talking about like
28:56
adoption and how we we can't evangelize it, we can't politic
29:01
it. Like this is almost something
29:02
that has to be a grassroots effort, but it also has to be a
29:05
LED effort. And so I'm curious like, what is
29:08
that dichotomy from your perspective of what does it mean
29:12
to engage the folks in the field who are the end users, but then
29:17
also help the leadership understand that the true
29:20
business case of, you know, why it matters so much to enable and
29:26
support those teams? Right, so you're going to hit on
29:29
all three of my favorite authors right now and and people
29:31
listening might get an an idea of how I was shaped in some of
29:36
this now is because you know, we've talked about Brené Brown,
29:38
Adam Grant and you just hit Simon Sinek to me.
29:42
Simon Sinek start with why Leaders eat last book series
29:46
really opened my mind to how can you do that?
29:50
And I use this in consulting. So this is not just something
29:52
that I think works. I know it works.
29:56
Creating vision and shared vision in an organization and
29:59
allowing an organization to really determine what its own
30:03
DNA is. This is also really scary in
30:05
construction, but like you can be a lifestyle company and be a
30:09
$50 million contractor and be awesome.
30:11
First and foremost, leadership must decide why they exist and
30:16
what their company is, right? What is that vision?
30:18
Why do we exist? Why are we here?
30:21
And that has to be core to the DNA.
30:24
But then there are nested whys, right?
30:26
If your why is growth, then as a leadership organization, you
30:30
have a very different reason as to why you want all of that
30:34
data, all of those insights into what is going on in your
30:38
organization. That is different for your AP
30:42
clerks, for your HR department, but it's not separate of it.
30:46
It's nested together and as you go and sit with each of them,
30:50
you have to understand why they exist, why they come to work,
30:55
and what you can do to make that easier.
30:58
And this, it sounds really difficult.
31:00
It's really not right. You've got to take your own hat
31:04
off at each one and figure out with them.
31:07
And this is to your AC Integration Summit.
31:09
What's in it for them? Every person says it with them.
31:12
What's in it for me? You bring me a new tool.
31:15
What the hell is in it for me? Why does this matter to me?
31:18
Now look at the top. That might be because I want to
31:22
grow my business and I want to understand where I'm profitable,
31:26
where my money's going, what my whip is, all of those different
31:29
things. But ultimately, that person
31:31
doesn't care unless you can articulate it.
31:33
And listen, I want to grow this company and I want you to have a
31:38
job and I want to pay you more and I want to grow you.
31:42
So I need this information in order to succeed at that.
31:47
And how do I tie it back to them?
31:49
What's in it for them? Hey, I really don't care what
31:53
order of events you're doing things in because you're good at
31:56
sequencing. But I need to know how much
31:59
material you've used, where you are on labor, what different
32:02
cost codes you're working on so that I can bill out for that
32:05
project. And by the way, I just want that
32:08
to be easier for you because I want your head up on a swivel
32:11
monitoring the job, right? Or, you know, the other thing
32:14
you can do is know your vision and know why you what you want
32:19
out of that data. But find out what's killing
32:21
them. And you can 9 times out of 10,
32:26
connect what you're trying to bring to them to why they should
32:30
do it and what's in it for them. And if you can't, you probably
32:34
chose the wrong thing. And I think you this whole that
32:39
conversation has really just hit the, the nail on the head of
32:43
something we were talking a little bit on our pre call to is
32:46
I want to summarize it is construction as a whole, as a is
32:51
in in a project specifically is an activity that's shared by
32:54
multiple companies. And so it's not it's even bigger
32:58
than what's in it for me and what's in it for them.
33:00
It's what's in it for my partners too.
33:02
And I think that's where things get like every tech company who
33:05
has tried to do a multi layer deal and construction has become
33:10
painfully aware of. And if they're not painfully
33:12
aware of it, they will be. Because this is what happens is
33:15
what what matters to the owner does not matter to the GC in the
33:20
same way. And many times the GC or the
33:23
even the engineer, the architect, whomever has their
33:26
own horse in this race and they have to figure out a couple
33:30
different value props. It's well, how do you make your
33:32
customer happy? Because it's what's in it for
33:34
your partners matters. What does it matter for you?
33:37
Because running your business matters and then what does it
33:39
matter for your workers and what doesn't matter for your
33:42
downstream partners? And this is like every tech sale
33:45
to me has become like a massive education journey of like, well,
33:49
I hear you, but here is the broad picture and how all of
33:53
this connects. And you know, we, we got into
33:56
this and that's why I want to like summarize it is we were
33:59
started to talk about culture beyond company and where trades
34:03
and people are out in the field. And we're, we're seeing almost a
34:06
revitalization of the roadshow where there are younger creators
34:09
who are out there going to shows and talking to trades people and
34:12
getting their perspectives again, which is exciting to see.
34:15
And to me, like these grassroots efforts where we get to
34:19
understand the true pain of the, the end user and, and what they
34:23
care about, which in many times is I've walked through these
34:27
prefab shops and construction sites and they have on their
34:29
board of like, what, what are they, what are they thinking
34:32
about today? And you, you go down in December
34:35
and on the board, it's like Christmas.
34:37
It's presents. My kids and my family, they go
34:40
to work for a reason. All of us go to work for a
34:42
reason. And not most of us are going
34:45
because this is like the thing that we love.
34:47
It's our vocation, it's our true calling.
34:48
It's like we want to go home and, and spend time with our
34:51
family and friends and, and the people that we care about.
34:53
And so, you know, as we get into starting to tee up the next
34:58
episode, I'd really like your perspective on like what culture
35:02
beyond the company starts to look like and even extrapolating
35:06
from Simon Sinek's why and how why is a is a multi company
35:11
problem or opportunity perhaps and the construction industry.
35:16
And I think you know where folks like us get so excited about the
35:19
work we do in this technology interoperability space.
35:23
OK, a lot to unpack in that because I will challenge even
35:28
further or complicated even further challenges, not the
35:31
word. It's complicated even further.
35:33
And again, this is what's cool. If you look back at at my
35:35
journey, I have had the extraordinary privilege of
35:40
working from the owner, to the architect, to the engineer, to
35:43
the GC, to the CM, to the trades, to the building product
35:46
manufacturers and to the service providers that exist there.
35:50
And, and I don't want this to sound bad, but like every time a
35:54
rock turns over, another profession trickles out and I
35:58
learn about it like I'm like, wow, this ecosystem is crazy.
36:01
And it is a it was a learning experience for me because I came
36:05
into this industry very much like, we're going to solve this
36:07
problem just like you hear all the time, like, hey, this is a,
36:10
this is a problem to be solved. Yeah.
36:12
I did not understand that complexity, the amount of layers
36:15
because what I will add is for every one of those groups that
36:18
you talked about, they have a business model and just about
36:22
all of their business models are under direct attack at almost
36:27
all times, right owners, their worlds are changing fast, you
36:31
know, and what they need to provide is pivoting all the
36:34
time. You know, we're seeing an uptick
36:36
here down there architects as well, like their world is
36:40
changing, their business models are changing everybody's is
36:44
trades. It's going from on site stick
36:47
building to fabrication that's changing their model.
36:50
So layer all that together and you wonder why we can't get her
36:54
done. It's because it's a web and and
36:56
there's no silver bullet. So stop looking for one and stop
37:00
jumping on everyone that happens and think about that culture,
37:04
right? Think about what you want to put
37:06
out there as a company and then realize there are people in your
37:13
company that believe that too. And the world has changed.
37:17
Like everybody can have a TikTok account, everybody can have an
37:20
Instagram account, everybody can be an advocate, right?
37:24
Brands can't hold on to that that anymore.
37:28
Companies can't hang on to that anymore.
37:31
They have to evolve to realize that they again are greater than
37:36
the sum of their parts. If they can embrace that and
37:40
harness it, and you can bring a culture of Better Together,
37:44
Better Together, right? I don't know a single architect
37:48
that wants to be a mechanical contractor and fabricate
37:52
mechanical systems. OK.
37:54
But you don't get to build buildings if they don't exist,
37:56
right? This is this other thing is we
37:58
created this adversarial thing, right?
38:01
We are a symbiotic ecosystem. You know, all you hyperscalers
38:05
out there, you don't get data centers unless somebody has
38:09
produced all the wiring and switch gear and concrete and
38:14
steel air conditioning and cooling and all that.
38:18
OK architect, you don't get to design cool stuff if nobody can
38:22
build it and if owners don't have a business model to build
38:24
it, engineers same like I just rinse and repeat, right?
38:28
Go all the way down the chain. So realize that, embrace that,
38:32
that's complex, but lean in at your core to partnership.
38:36
Non adversarial relationships, even those of us in tech like go
38:42
back to Simon Sinek or the rivals or the rivals are a good
38:47
thing. Adam Grant.
38:48
Simon Sinek couldn't stand Adam Grant.
38:50
He woke up every day looking at the best sellers list and
38:54
wondering how he could get past Adam.
38:56
He had to beat him and he had his own epiphany.
38:59
Adam made him better and actually Adam didn't dislike him
39:04
and they became fast friends and they work together.
39:07
And that was Simon out there showing vulnerability and how
39:11
the change occurred. Do that.
39:13
Put that out there. Are you going to get burned?
39:15
Hell yes, you are. But that is on them, not on you.
39:20
You and, and, and embrace these young folks coming out too, by
39:24
the way, because their world is different than ours.
39:26
Everybody has a side hustle. Everybody has a brand.
39:30
I have a personal brand. I did not do that intentionally.
39:34
I cultivate it now intentionally, but I didn't do
39:37
that intentionally. These kids are coming up in a
39:40
world where that is part of the world to them.
39:44
Influencers were not a thing when we when I was younger.
39:48
They are a thing now. And it's actually proven to be
39:52
very valuable in creating change because like you said, Nick, I
39:56
don't believe Nick when he tells me something because Nick's not
40:00
wearing a hard hat and not doesn't have dirty boots and
40:04
doesn't know. But if I see that person on
40:07
TikTok that looks like me, that talks like me, that.
40:12
Maybe thinks a little differently.
40:14
I'm apartment to jump on board. Yeah, and I think this is a
40:17
great opportunity, like great spot to to hit pause on the
40:20
conversation and we're going back to the two episode format.
40:24
I hope you all enjoyed getting to know Jeff a little bit
40:26
better. I was enjoyed getting to learn a
40:29
little bit more about you too. Jeff, this has been an amazing
40:31
conversation. I'm excited that we get to cheat
40:34
and have Part 2 right now and y'all have to wait two weeks.
40:37
But this is like, to me, the kind of empathy and the kind of
40:42
vulnerability that needs to happen in our space in order for
40:47
us to collaborate better. And I love like how you talked
40:49
about worthy rivals because to me, you don't, you do not become
40:54
the best athlete by playing against the worst teams.
40:58
It is baffling to me that there's so many folks out there
41:02
that just like they want to continuously win, but losing is
41:06
some of the best lessons and missing up and making mistakes
41:09
are some of the best lessons that help you become greater.
41:14
And that if you truly want to make change, make impact, you
41:18
have to be vulnerable. You have to step out on that
41:21
branch. You have to, you know, fall off
41:24
that branch in order for you to learn the lessons, to sharpen
41:28
your perspective to be able to make that change.
41:31
So I just really grateful for you joining the show today,
41:34
excited to get into Part 2. And you know, if you're
41:37
listening, subscribe, share your thoughts, share it with a friend
41:41
and stay wired to build. We'll catch you on the next part
41:43
Thank you.