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Katie Woolf spoke with Delia Lawrie on Territory Alliance friction · 360 with Katie Woolf

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Yesterday you heard some fairly explosive claims made by Daniel.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: Kelly, the secretary of Territory Alliance.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: He dropped well pretty some fairly high profile names, the
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: likes of Terry Mills obviously, and also my next guest,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Dealia Laurie, who joins me in the studio right now.
• 0:18
  Speaker 3: Good morning Delia, Good morning Katie.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Now Delia. Obviously, I guess a lot of people sort.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Of questioned when you joined Territory Alliance to help with
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: the campaign, why you'd done that. You and Terry seem
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: like you're on totally opposite sides of the spectrum when
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: it comes to politics. But you did, you joined them
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: and obviously wanted to help out and help them with
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: the campaign.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: How did it all go from your perspective? Yeah, Look, I.
• 0:44
  Speaker 4: Didn't join the party because I wasn't really interested in
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  Speaker 4: party politics. What I am interested in will always be
• 0:50
  Speaker 4: interested in, is how do we help our territory. You know,
• 0:54
  Speaker 4: such a complex place to live, help so many huge challenges.
• 0:59
  Speaker 4: And with years experience in parliament, with political campaigns, with
• 1:04
  Speaker 4: a passion for policy, a media background, I'm a campaigner.
• 1:09
  Speaker 4: I know how to run political campaigns and being political
• 1:12
  Speaker 4: campaigns and what.
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: It all entails.
• 1:14
  Speaker 4: And here's this brand new party and I'm being approached
• 1:17
  Speaker 4: by people who are friends. It wasn't Terry who approached
• 1:21
  Speaker 4: me initially to say, hey, come and work for us.
• 1:25
  Speaker 4: Can you do the stakeholder engagement? Can you work on
• 1:28
  Speaker 4: policy coordination? And I was like, You've got to be joking.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: Work with Terry Mills, you know. Really anyway, it's.
• 1:36
  Speaker 4: A journey in life, you know, keep an open mind,
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: you have conversations. I was good mates with Jeff Collins. Still,
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: I got on really well with Robin Lamley, Like she
• 1:46
  Speaker 4: and I had been political opponents, but when we both
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: ended up being Independence together hanging out in the Independent
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: shoe box, I caught it in Parliament because there's a
• 1:55
  Speaker 4: small room. We got to know each other as people
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: and got on really well and became friends and aid friends.
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: So for me, it was about could I work with
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: Robin Jeff Well, I absolutely knew I could, genuinely lovely people.
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: I really admire both of them. So it was about
• 2:11
  Speaker 4: kuld Terry and I work together, you know. So we
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: had a few catch ups and you know, I put
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: a few different things on the table that had been
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: said and done over the years, and I you know,
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: in the end, I said.
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: Listen, Terry, you were doing your job and I was
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: doing my job.
• 2:24
  Speaker 4: But what I found is that when we were at
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: functions together, social community events everywhere.
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: We were always decent to each other.
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: You know. I used to have really nice chats with
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: his wife, Rise, and I just found them as decent people.
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: Not necessarily at all on the political page that I
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: was on. Okay, but that's life diversity, and I respect diversity.
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: So I was like, as long as I don't have
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: to join the party, I don't want to be involved
• 2:50
  Speaker 4: in party politics. Let me just get on with the
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: stakeholder engagement, running the machinery of the campaign side of
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: things to help people in their seeds and coordinating policies.
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: So that's why I got on board.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: And Dearlire, I guess you know, it seemed from an
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: outsider's perspective that things started to sort of maybe crack
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: a little bit within the party on that decision on fracking. Now,
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: I don't know whether that's right or not, but that
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: was from my perspective where it seemed as though things
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: started to fall apart a little bit.
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: Was that the case, Yeah, look, I think fracking was
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: such a difficult topic for Terry. You know, he was like,
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: I sort of look at his journey like the territory's journey.
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: When fracking first appeared on the radar years ago, no
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: one thought any ill of it, like, Okay, what's wrong
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  Speaker 4: with it? Gas extraction, let's go for it. And then
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: all more as people started to look into it, started
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: to understand the US experience, the Queensland experience, and the
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: effects and the contamination of water and land and air,
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: people started to change their views. So I look at
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: Terry's journey on fracking similar actually to a lot of people,
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: because then you go from going on, it's all good
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: to oh, geez, hang on. The more I find out
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  Speaker 4: about it, the more questions are raised about it, and
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: then the Pepper reports. So when I came on board
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: in a policy coordination sense, I said, you got to
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  Speaker 4: know I am massively anti fracking, and I'll be working
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: out policy in that regard. You get to decide what
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: your policy is, but you got to know that's the
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: direction I'll be taking the research.
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: Are you up for that? The answer I got was yes.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: So Daniel Kelly said to us yesterday on the show
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: that that wasn't the case, that the party was obviously
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: all for the fracking band, but that Terry wasn't necessarily
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: sold on the anti fracking stance.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: Is that your perspective?
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  Speaker 4: Look, Actually, it was diverse because a group of people
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: will have diverse views. So, you know, Daniel never expressed
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: anything directly to me because he just didn't like to
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: talk to me full stop. And on the old occasion
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: he talked to me, it was like hostile and aggressive.
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: So I was really happy to say, stay away from
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: the guy as much as possible. But other people who
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: are really all the other candidates, you know, really engaging,
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: wanting conversations by far and away. The majority of them
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: were like, please, can we have some solid band tracking policy?
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  Speaker 4: What research are you doing? You know, what's your team doing?
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  Speaker 4: And I was like, yeah, we're doing a lot of
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: work on it. Terry was like, well, what if all
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: of Pepper's introduced his recommendations. You know, he was really
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: in that space, but he was willing to go on
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: and opening his mind journey, and in the end he
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: got to the point I thought within him where he
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: was like you know what, Yeah, he got a huge
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: backlash from the business community massive backlash, and I think
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: unless people are in the front seat going through in
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: real time, throughout the day, throughout the nights, you know
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: you are the focus as the leader, and you're copying it.
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: I don't think other people understand the extent of what
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: told that takes on a person. So my experience with
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: Terry was he had to get to a point where
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: sovereign risk was dealt with in the policy. That is,
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: don't expose the territory to litigation. So we had to
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: deal with sovereign risk. We dealt with that in the policy.
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: Once that was dealt with, Cherry got on board. But
• 6:16
  Speaker 4: the battering he copped personally from the business sector definitely, definitely,
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: I think affected the strength and vigor to which he
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: would argue the fracking ban, Whereas there are a lot
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: of other people not able to deal with that. Every
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: day you're like, yeah, of course we should be banning fracking.
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: So as a party, generally speaking, they are on the
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: band fracking page.
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: Now, Dearlia.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: Then when you I mean, when you look at how
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: the party went obviously at the election, it underperformed in
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: terms of winning seats. Robin Lamley retained her seat obviously,
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: we know that Jeff and Terry didn't. Robin was the
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  Speaker 1: only sitting member still then of Territory Alliance.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: Earlier in the week.
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  Speaker 1: I spoke to her on Wednesday about nine point thirty.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: She was still sort of vulming a ring about whether
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: she was going to stay part of the party. By
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: eleven am, she had said she'd resigned. Daniel Kelly had
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: also issued a statement via media person Peter Butler saying
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: that you know they were expelling her from the party.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: How do you think that the party is going to
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: be able to continue on after what's happened earlier in
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: the week.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, look, you know, crazy behavior.
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  Speaker 4: Seriously, anyone who understands politics understands the political parties are
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: desperate to have a member of parliament. You know, the
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: Greens would love a member of parliament up here. It's
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  Speaker 4: an anchor, it's a focal point, it's a voice, it's
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  Speaker 4: a strength. And here you have a party absolutely new fledgling,
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  Speaker 4: struggled at the election big time, but secured a seat
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  Speaker 4: with an experienced parliamentarian and then go and attack her. Now,
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: you know, I saw the comments from Daniel Kelly about
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  Speaker 4: Robin being alone. Wolf I have to say that's out
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  Speaker 4: a rubbish. I was involved in this campaign. I was
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: in the deputy campaign director role. I had to deal
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: with all the candidates except Daniel. You know, he didn't
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  Speaker 4: like talking to me. Happy days not.
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  Speaker 2: Do you think?
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  Speaker 4: Oh look, before i'd met him, and I'd only just
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: come onto the campaign in the role, you know, I'd
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: had a pretty busy week setting up a lot of
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: the campaign basics, you know, email list structures, everything. It
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: was like pretty well ground zero. Anyway, I was having
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: a little bit of relaxation. On a Saturday afternoon, check
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  Speaker 4: my Facebook. I saw this video and it was Pete
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: Butler doing a mock interview off a panel with Daniel Kelly.
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  Speaker 4: And I'm like, Saturday, I don't want to watch this.
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  Speaker 4: But then I was like, well I have to. I'm
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: in the campaign role, right, And they talked on a
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  Speaker 4: couple of subjects he made. The third subject was Pete
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  Speaker 4: interviewing Daniel, and the third one was well, what about
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: the debt, mate, the massive debt, you know, the gun
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: of debt la LA, And Daniel's like, well, yes, you know,
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  Speaker 4: to deal with it, you're going to have to look
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  Speaker 4: at cutting public services or increasing taxes, and then Pete goes, well, mate,
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  Speaker 4: it's so bad, you'd have to do both.
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  Speaker 3: So Daniel goes, yeah, mate, you're right, you'd have to
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  Speaker 3: do both. Well, Katie.
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  Speaker 4: In a campaign context, that's like designating an entire campaign.
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  Speaker 3: It's ground zero, right in a.
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: COVID pandemic affected community and economy where people who had
• 9:21
  Speaker 4: jobs desperate to keep their jobs. Businesses had gone to
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: the wall, so no one could afford tax increases, no
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: one could afford job losses, and the economy certainly can't
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: afford job losses right now. So it was like the
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: worst thing to say. It wasn't their policy position. It
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: was these two guys randomly doing streams of consciousness. Yet
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: it was on a public domain, it was on Facebook.
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  Speaker 4: So I got straight onto the blower and spent the
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: next twenty minutes getting that video pulled off Facebook.
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: And it was Terry in the end who got it
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  Speaker 3: down for me.
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  Speaker 4: And after that I got all this sort of feedback
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: about who was I, how dare I get that dune?
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: And you had every right to say whatever he wanted
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: to say stuff, and I was say no, because it
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: impacts on everyone.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: Now, Dearlia, obviously earlier in the week.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: Then he well, on the show yesterday he's sort of
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: you know, he has he's really I guess you would
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: say laid the blame of the election losses on Terry
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: on you on one of the other campaigners, James Lantry,
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: and also said that Jeff and Robin are obviously no
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: longer members of the party.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, what was your reaction when you heard that.
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I think it's really sad.
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: I think he's just completely delusional about what you know,
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: what happens in a campaign and what voters decide on.
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: You know, they were voting at.
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: A time in a pandemic where they didn't want to
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: take a risk on an unknown and territory alliance was
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: still essentially unknown.
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: Terry was known, but.
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: Again, you know, it was a difficult environment for him.
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: He was a third pig in a two parts his system.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: Do you guys take any blame for that campaign?
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: Everyone should look at what they do, how they do it,
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: Could they have done it better? All of that, everyone's
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: got to go could I have done it better?
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 11:12
  Speaker 4: But to say well, it's these people and it's their fault, Well,
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: actually no, that's wrong, Daniel, and wrong in fact and Terry.
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: Terry worked incredibly.
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: Hard to try and be all things to all people.
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: And Robin wasn't a lone wolf. She pulled together a
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: really strong team and Alice Springs and there are some
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: really beautiful.
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: Great candidates that came forward, lovely people.
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: Dearly.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Have you spoken to Terry in you know, in recent days?
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: Is he planning on starting with the party?
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: No? Look, I haven't spoke to doing in recent days.
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: And look, I feel for him. He got attacked on
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: a daily basis from Daniel and from Pete just having
• 11:52
  Speaker 4: a red hot crack at him on a daily basis.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: So you're saying he had people within the party who
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: were attacking.
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: They just would go him on a daily base because
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: it had to be how they wanted it, you know,
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: their way.
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: But their way was like bizarre.
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: You know, let's all stand on the side of the
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: road and wave no guys, hit the doors, go door knocking,
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: direct vote to contact is what it takes.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: And so I mean, what do you think the future
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: is going to be for this party? Do you? I mean,
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: do you think that Terry's going to stay in the party?
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: What are your reckons going to happen next?
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: Oh? Look, you know, I can't imagine with the way
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: he's being treated and attacked, and Terry's been so good
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: for so long in just sort of absorbing it and
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: taking it on and getting on with it. I can't
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: imagine then he'll keep on allowing you know, these characters
• 12:42
  Speaker 4: to just be toxic in his life essentially, I.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: Mean, dearly.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: There will be some people listening this morning who are thinking, well, maybe,
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: you know, maybe you're the delusional one, or maybe Terry's
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: the delusional one, because you guys, you know, I guess
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: some would say you're recycled politicians and sort of trying
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: to push this agenda of a new party and something
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: that's different, when in reality it's it's not. Yeah.
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: Look, I wasn't pushing an agenda of a new party.
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: I was in there to do stakeholder engagement, make sure
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: that the new party that was there established had some
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: sound policies based on evidence rather than some streams of consciousness.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: That was my role, a pretty clear and simple, defined role,
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: working two instructions. I wasn't on the agenda of pursuing
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: a great grand vision of a third party. You know,
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: there are other parties and in the territory that I've
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: seen try to be established over the years and it
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: just doesn't happen. We're too smaller jurisdiction. The big parties
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: are too well established. So I figured, if they want
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: me on board to stand up some good policies which
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: will exist, which the other parties will have a look at.
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: There may be things in there that they go, oh yeah.
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: You know, the Aboriginal liaison officers were a central part
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: of some of the police policy that Territory Alliance had
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: and now we're seeing an emphasis on Aberiginal liaison officers
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: coming through into that police structure properly.
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: It's great, Delia.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: We are going to have to wrap up. We've run
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: out of time. But what's next for you? Is that
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: politics done and dusted.
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: Oh look, I'm always going to be involved in politics.
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: I was born and raised in politics in the territory
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: and in Darwin In particularly.
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: I love it. I love the people who are prepared.
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: To stand up and you know, take take on huge challenges,
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: so I'll be supportive. I'm not a you know, it's
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: this way or the highway type of person. I'm really
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: open to working with people across diverse fews.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: Delia Laurie, good to talk with you this morning. Thanks
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: so much for your time.
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: Thanks Katie,