Latest / Attachment Matters Podcast / AM S2 Ep 12: Navigating a Wounding World

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AM S2 Ep 12: Navigating a Wounding World · Attachment Matters Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Attachment Matters.
• 0:03
  This podcast is a conversation between two mothers who are
• 0:07
  passionate about the
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: subject of attachment.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: This is Rose.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm Stoic Mom.
• 0:13
  Both of our families ended up entangled in the confusing world
• 0:17
  of gender and
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: identity,
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: following very different routes to get here.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: Through this experience,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: we each discovered how in parenting our children,
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: we are offered the opportunity to grow ourselves up.
• 0:29
  Our hope is to offer greater insight into how to strengthen the
• 0:32
  relationship
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: between parents and their children,
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: despite all odds.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: In this episode,
• 0:41
  we review the wisdom of the defenses to take care of us so we
• 0:45
  can function in this
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: world,
• 0:47
  and that problems in this design arise and we have no safe
• 0:49
  place to let our guard
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: down.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: We spend some time discussing what it's like to parent children,
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: often described as sensitive,
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: due to the increased stimuli they experience.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: Because these kids feel so much,
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: their defenses kick in to protect their nervous systems,
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: often distressing those around them with confusing behaviors.
• 1:08
  Rose starts us off with a reminder that when facing separation
• 1:11
  from our children,
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: regardless of the form it takes,
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: parents can experience trauma,
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: and we'd all benefit from an abundance of grace.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: Hello.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: Good morning, Rose.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Good morning.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: How are you?
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm doing well.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: Settling into our new place.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: Lots of people know we've moved.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Congratulations.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so happy for you.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's much quieter.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: It makes podcast recording easier.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's funny.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Very nice.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: Very nice.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm looking forward to digging in.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: Today's.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: And.
• 1:59
  Forgive me,
• 2:00
  but before we do,
• 2:01
  you know,
• 2:03
  you and I just kind of had a pre-talk.
• 2:06
  And it's sort of just like,
• 2:09
  I want to speak to something kind of right off the bat.
• 2:13
  Before we move into,
• 2:14
  we're going to be talking again about vulnerability and the
• 2:17
  defenses.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to do a little review of what we talked about last episode.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:21
  And then we're going to hopefully dive a little more deeply
• 2:24
  into the mechanisms of
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: defense and break down that layers of emotional defense,
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: perceptual defense,
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: attachment defense.
• 2:32
  And I'm hoping where we land is talking a little bit or a
• 2:35
  little or a lot more
• 2:36
  about sensitivity because this understanding of vulnerability
• 2:41
  and the defenses is
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: so intrinsically connected to understanding a sensitive child that
• 2:50
  It's such a crucial connection to make,
• 2:52
  so I'm really hoping we get there today.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: But before we dive in,
• 2:58
  because this is sort of feels very there's an expression in
• 3:02
  Spanish that I love.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it's in la flor de la piel.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's like literally translates to it's on the flower of my skin.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: It just means like it's tender.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's what's really right.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, right.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: on the edge of my skin right now or,
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: or on the,
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 3:25
  the opening of my skin is like my heart going out to all of our
• 3:31
  listeners.
• 3:33
  And,
• 3:34
  um,
• 3:37
  what we talked about before pressing record was a lot of
• 3:40
  different things,
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  but
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: where I want to just speak to before we dive in is just the,
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: the lived reality of the traumatic experience of,
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: of,
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: of having a trans identified child who,
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: who does change physically.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Or even just emotionally,
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: mentally,
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  SPEAKER_00: cognitively,
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  SPEAKER_00: that this is this concept that Neufeld has that,
• 4:12
  facing separation and we've talked about this on and off and
• 4:16
  we'll come back to it
• 4:17
  hopefully in future seasons or episodes more to really dig in
• 4:21
  more deeply around it
• 4:24
  but I thank you for giving me the grace where I can just say to
• 4:30
  our listeners as we
• 4:31
  open up this episode like my heart is on my sleeve in this
• 4:35
  moment my heart goes out
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  SPEAKER_00: to all of you um
• 4:40
  for the pain um of experiencing that separation from your child
• 4:47
  whether it's just i
• 4:48
  shouldn't say just whether it's at the level of that like
• 4:50
  social identity that
• 4:52
  they've taken on that is experienced as a separation and or uh
• 4:58
  an actual physical
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: change okay and that
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: For all of you out there who are going through this,
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: which I think pretty much everybody is at some level who's listening.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to acknowledge that this is a,
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: we throw this word around too much in our culture,
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: but it is a trauma.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's a traumatic experience.
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  To face that level of separation with your child as a mother,
• 5:27
  as a father,
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  as a parent.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's deeply primal.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's deeply primal.
• 5:33
  So I want to just start off by saying like,
• 5:37
  oh my gosh,
• 5:38
  no matter what,
• 5:42
  you know,
• 5:45
  you are where you are because of what you're going through and
• 5:51
  to not try to
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: contort and make yourself a pretzel of what you think you should be.
• 5:59
  But like you are experiencing these primal emotions that are
• 6:04
  moving you because you
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: are facing the separation.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to be a little more explicit in that,
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: and make sure listeners understand what you're saying here.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: This isn't that the separation is real,
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: that,
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 6:26
  I think a lot of them feel shame about these feelings because
• 6:31
  their child is still
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: in their life.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: if they're sitting across the dinner table from this child,
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: they don't feel like they have a right,
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: or it's not okay to have these feelings of sadness and grief.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: And in fact, they've been shamed for it.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: Literally shamed for it by others.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, how dare you?
• 6:59
  Maybe those words aren't used,
• 7:00
  but I think that's the message that comes across.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: Your child is still in your life.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's not okay for you to feel this way.
• 7:10
  Yeah,
• 7:11
  and what I was sharing with you before we started recording is
• 7:14
  like,
• 7:17
  that you know i even though my situation was with a young child
• 7:22
  okay not a teenager
• 7:25
  or 20 something who has chosen to medicalize and therefore a
• 7:29
  daughter now having a
• 7:30
  mustache or smelling differently or having a different voice
• 7:33
  you know or seating
• 7:34
  hairline all of these changes physically i just thought of this
• 7:39
  this as we started
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  SPEAKER_00: talking today that
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because my son was prepubescent, he passed.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 7:48
  the social transition allowed for this almost like complete
• 7:53
  physical transition in
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: my perception of him.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: OK.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so I experienced that sensory separation,
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 8:04
  because what I was saying to you is like for the mom across the
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  dinner table from
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  SPEAKER_00: her daughter who is now physically presenting with facial hair.
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  That is a facing separation at the level of this attachment at
• 8:19
  the senses.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: Which is that first level.
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  SPEAKER_00: The most primal.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: The most primal.
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  SPEAKER_00: It might be quote-unquote superficial in that it's harder to hold on,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: if you only have that depth.
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  SPEAKER_00: But it's the absolute most primal.
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  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 8:39
  It goes back to,
• 8:40
  like,
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  birthing your child into the world,
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  their smell,
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  their sound,
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  their face.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is, like, probably the most primal thing imaginable.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so I guess what I was saying is,
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: I,
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: for the mom out there who is struggling with this situation,
• 9:02
  primal separation like even though that is not me right now I
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  can relate because I
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  saw my son as a different as opposite sex perceptually
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  emotionally mentally
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  physically because prepubescent you pass you completely pass
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  and so coming out of
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  SPEAKER_00: that for me probably was in some ways
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: maybe directly connected to our topic because it was like,
• 9:37
  I think I had built up just armor of defenses around feeling
• 9:43
  that grief and even
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: feeling the separation.
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  And so when I,
• 9:49
  when I kind of came into my sort of like turning point around
• 9:54
  this,
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  SPEAKER_00: Probably those defenses came down.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then it was like for the first time I felt that trauma,
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  SPEAKER_00: that trauma of that separation I'd faced for four plus years full on.
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  SPEAKER_00: And let me tell you, I can't describe the intensity of that.
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  and you know tears are coming to my eyes just kind of going
• 10:22
  back to that place and
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  SPEAKER_00: what that feeling that the impact of that separation and naming it
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  SPEAKER_00: And allowing myself to acknowledge it,
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  SPEAKER_00: which I had in four years,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: was an experience that I just can't describe with words.
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  And so for you saying the moms who are told you shouldn't feel
• 10:49
  like your child is
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: still in your life,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: and what a blessing.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, we should be grateful.
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  SPEAKER_00: And yes, and at the same time.
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  SPEAKER_00: you are facing the separation at a primal level.
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  SPEAKER_00: So the grief,
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  SPEAKER_00: the anger,
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  SPEAKER_00: all of it,
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: the pursuit of like trying to figure out,
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: trying to connect,
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  trying to close that gap to reestablish connection in whatever
• 11:19
  ways you can.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: it can be overwhelming and it's driving us,
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: because that's our survival instinct.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: is to have that primal attachment to our child.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I just want to start off with an abundance of grace,
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: an abundance of space for moms to just acknowledge.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's not to be victimized,
• 11:50
  but it is to say this is probably one of the most profound
• 11:53
  traumas you could ever
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: experience.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 12:02
  Your term that I have fallen in love with that I heard you say
• 12:09
  and I use often now
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: is an ocean of grief.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: There's an ocean of grief to be moved.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm nodding my head over here.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for that, Rose.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And to survive,
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 12:39
  and we're going to kind of maybe this is like a good bridge to
• 12:41
  start reviewing this
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: vulnerability and defenses concept.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's like to survive...
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: moms have to put on,
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 12:52
  the brain either is going to do it for you automatically or
• 12:56
  there might be some
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: will involved of putting on that armor to exist in the world because that
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: vulnerability is so huge.
• 13:06
  Those emotions of grief are so huge that you're not always
• 13:11
  going to feel them.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's going to be times when you're not feeling it.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 13:22
  And something else that has been a big part or topic that we've
• 13:29
  come back to again
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: and again and again is that grief requires safety.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: And most of these moms have not felt safe.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: To feel their grief.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: The culture has made it unsafe.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: To feel that grief.
• 13:46
  And I feel like you and I talk about this a lot,
• 13:49
  whether while recording or not.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: You're between a rock and a hard place because we are...
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: We,
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: because this is so much about attachment,
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's the camp on the,
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: the woke or pro-trans community.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: tribal,
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:14
  dynamic and ideological dynamic that people are attached within
• 14:18
  or in these primal
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: pursuit and frustration,
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: all of those dynamics playing out in that side.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 14:27
  we have all of that and on the gender critical side or whatever
• 14:32
  you want to call
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: it,
• 14:32
  the side where parents are navigating and trying to find
• 14:35
  support and connection and
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: navigate this situation with those who
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: are not bought into the ideology.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: And there's landmines in both camps.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: And especially if you're living in the online world, it is a mess.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think you have both retreated a lot from that because of it.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: People are operating just out of
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know, all of this pain.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 15:16
  Yes,
• 15:16
  and isn't it interesting that that MO,
• 15:21
  that method of operation,
• 15:22
  increases.
• 15:24
  I hear you saying there's this sense of attachment within the
• 15:29
  tribe or the camp.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, has to be.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: But ultimately, it increases the sense of separation.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that shame, you know, am I doing it right?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: Is there something intrinsically wrong with me?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this person I read said that it should be this way.
• 15:45
  And this person who's doing parent consulting has said it
• 15:48
  should be this way.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I see this Twitter post from this high profile,
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: whoever,
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: and,
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: and what does that mean for me?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just going to share.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: When my trigonometry video came out,
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: I was very online,
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: extremely online those first couple of years.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: I still dabble, but I'm not as locked into that pursuit.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm less getting those attachment needs,
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: seeking those attachment needs to be filled by the online world.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: I was very intensely locked in for a couple of years in that way.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: When I did the trigonometry interview,
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: I followed certain high-profile people on Twitter in our subculture,
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: some of them detransitioners,
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: okay?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I was very moved by these stories, and I still am.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I remember that I was watching the reaction to the video, okay?
• 16:53
  And I remember having one very high-profile,
• 16:55
  very public person call me a Munchausen mom.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember the pain I felt because I was like, I'm not.
• 17:09
  And in my mind,
• 17:12
  it was like,
• 17:12
  or pardon me,
• 17:13
  it was like,
• 17:13
  am I,
• 17:14
  am I,
• 17:14
  am I,
• 17:14
  am I,
• 17:15
  you know?
• 17:16
  And then,
• 17:17
  but it was also like,
• 17:20
  my whole goal was to like be of service to help.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: And to acknowledge the mistakes I had made and,
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: own it,
• 17:29
  just own it as best I could to help bring more understanding of
• 17:37
  people who were
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: totally captured within this whole thing as affirming parents.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just,
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: but it was an important moment for me to see that because I was like,
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: wait a second.
• 17:53
  he doesn't know me right yeah we don't have a relationship why
• 18:01
  does this have such
• 18:03
  an impact and some of my friends who were like i would say one
• 18:08
  friend who has
• 18:10
  remained a friend through this whole experience you know at
• 18:14
  some point during that
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: era gently reminded me like
• 18:19
  it really seems like these online figures are having more of an
• 18:23
  impact on you than
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: people you actually know.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: And there was a reason for that because I was leaving that,
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: that old group and I needed to find a new one.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there was a reason for that.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: But it also like there's just these little moments of like, oh, yeah.
• 18:48
  I am very vulnerable to the influence and the impact of people
• 18:56
  I don't even know.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: Who mostly are furthering their own agenda.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: Or just operating out of raw pain.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Some.
• 19:17
  You know who don't have a monetary incentive or,
• 19:20
  you know,
• 19:20
  it's...
• 19:22
  Oh,
• 19:22
  absolutely.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: Operating out of raw pain.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and they're also...
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: My mind goes straight to the traffic circle, right?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's a way to discharge the frustration in the system.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: You're looking for somewhere to lash out.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: So this was a, you know, we interrupt this message.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's connected to the topic of vulnerability and defenses,
• 20:03
  but it was just since we talked about these things kind of
• 20:06
  before pressing record,
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: I just,
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: they're just so fresh on my heart,
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: and so it's good.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: We can go.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Off script, so to speak.
• 20:18
  And just,
• 20:18
  I want to,
• 20:20
  I want to speak to our listeners who are having to navigate so
• 20:25
  much.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: In this very wounding world.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's so wounded.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 20:51
  And attachment and understanding attachment,
• 20:58
  I think,
• 20:58
  can really help us navigate.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I'm here.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's why I love our conversations.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I love doing this podcast together, because...
• 21:15
  you know,
• 21:15
  as people who are longtime listeners know,
• 21:17
  like this has been my save my lifeline.
• 21:21
  And I can fall into my own patterns of rigidity and wanting to
• 21:26
  get things right.
• 21:27
  And,
• 21:28
  you know,
• 21:28
  but it's just like,
• 21:30
  over time,
• 21:33
  it's helped,
• 21:34
  and I've softened.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: And as I've increased my
• 21:39
  practice in my own life of trying to bring these insights in
• 21:43
  and try to give myself
• 21:46
  more grace and acceptance and naming some of the things that
• 21:51
  are happening you know
• 21:54
  it has given me so much so many gifts you know of just being
• 22:01
  able to to handle
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: things better you know to overcome some adversity and
• 22:09
  To right the ship when I kind of get off track with my own
• 22:12
  relationships with my
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: kids and my spouse and my family.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it's brought so much warmth and so much creativity and play.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: And there's so much...
• 22:25
  you know,
• 22:26
  that we can gain from what Dr.
• 22:29
  Neufeld and his work have to offer.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: I just, I'm a true believer.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: How ironic.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: That is funny.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: How ironic.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: With a little less dogmatism, but yeah, I am.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, oh, sorry for interrupting.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: Finish your thought.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: I love it because it,
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: What this circumstance did for me is it,
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: and I think for you too,
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: maybe in a very different way,
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: but it opened up a spiritual path for me.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: That I was very, very resistant to.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:17
  And I love that attachment is scientifically supporting this
• 23:25
  spiritual path that I
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: think is offered through so many religious pathways.
• 23:32
  I mean,
• 23:34
  to me,
• 23:36
  everybody's saying really the same thing,
• 23:39
  just using different language.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: And the Neufeld model is a scientific model.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: That affirms all of that.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like, oh, okay.
• 23:53
  Like,
• 23:55
  I can match,
• 23:56
  you know,
• 23:56
  the language of these other traditions,
• 24:00
  wisdom traditions to...
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: To this attachment work.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, oh, yeah, it makes sense.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's life.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's life.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: And all its exquisite richness.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it's beautiful.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: And amazing.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: And we are, we are miracles of life.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: We are.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: We are.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it does take going through all of the grief and all,
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:33
  just all of that to be able to kind of come out the other side
• 24:37
  and reconnect with
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: the miracle that is right in front of us.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: We can't force it.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, gosh, there's a song and I'm gonna have to put it in the show notes.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Trevor Hall, kind of a hippie musician guy, but one who, you know,
• 24:54
  Somehow I came upon during that same kind of period that I'm
• 24:57
  referring back to in
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: this opening story here.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: He has a song.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's called You Can't Rush Your Healing.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'll put it in the show notes.
• 25:05
  I listened to that song over and over and over again during
• 25:11
  that period of my life.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it's true.
• 25:15
  So,
• 25:17
  again,
• 25:17
  for listeners who are hearing the two of us say,
• 25:19
  yes,
• 25:20
  life is a miracle.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to see it again, I promise.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can't rush it.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: But it is, it is, it is, it is.
• 25:34
  But it is through that path of tears that we have to go through
• 25:38
  that winter.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: And we don't know how long it's going to take.
• 25:42
  Yeah.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: To come to spring.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: To come to spring.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: And you have to feel it.
• 25:48
  I think a lot of us have found some pretty good bypassing
• 25:54
  mechanisms that are
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: probably related to defendants.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's actually a perfect bridge.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: so just to kind of review from last week,
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: we're talking about vulnerability,
• 26:16
  which is the second aspect of that first two-dimensional
• 26:22
  triangle for Neufeld's
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: sort of model of human development and reaching our full potential.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about maturation and three different aspects of maturation.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now we're putting maturation on hold for a moment,
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: even though it's obviously intimately connected.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll probably get more into that next episode,
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: how the two vulnerability and maturation work.
• 26:48
  co-creating,
• 26:49
  are interconnecting with one another in that process of growth.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Probably a lot of listeners are already making those connections,
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: because it's just like boom,
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: boom,
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: boom.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the lights just start to go on.
• 27:06
  But last week we introduced more directly this concept of
• 27:09
  vulnerability and the defenses.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so just to review, you know,
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: vulnerability is just the ability to feel,
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: essentially,
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: to have a soft heart,
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: to feel our emotions,
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: to perceive the world,
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: and to be open to connecting,
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: to attaching with others and with things.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: So the defenses get kicked in automatically.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: by our brains when that vulnerability is too much to bear,
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's the emotional,
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: perceptual,
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: or attachment-based vulnerability.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: And we have to try to see this as the wisdom of our design as humans,
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: that the defenses are not to be fought against,
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: they are not to be shamed,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: they are not to be seen as a negative.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: They are there for a reason to take care of us.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: They're part of the miracle.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: They're part of the miracle.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: So we can function in a wounding world.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: And where the problems arise is when the defenses get locked in,
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: when we don't have a safe place to let our guard down.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: to come home to where we can have our tears or for a child,
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: just release emotion at the end of a school day.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about last episode,
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: like high,
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: some really,
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: really kids who are doing super well.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: When entering school,
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: the defenses are going to go in to function in a wounding environment,
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: to perform,
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: to do all those things throughout the eight-hour-plus day they may have.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: And when they come home,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: they might be screaming,
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: they might be just releasing,
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: they might be attacking their siblings.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Those emotions just need to come out.
• 29:19
  Once they are allowed to let their guard down,
• 29:22
  the brain says,
• 29:23
  okay,
• 29:23
  I'm in a safe place.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: It can be extremely messy,
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: and I encourage parents to hear this and think of it,
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's for yourself or your child,
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: being messy.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Neufeld has this amazing analogy.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: Our emotions move us.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's like having a bowel movement, okay?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's got to come out.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and it's messy.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: It stinks, okay?
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: It stinks.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's a mess, but just like our poo.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's shitty.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, just like our poo.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it's got to come out.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 30:00
  So whether we are needing to allow ourselves that space for the
• 30:04
  mess or our child,
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: whatever age,
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: that emotional release valve,
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: it's like this stuff has got to come out.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:14
  In order for the,
• 30:15
  you know,
• 30:15
  that's what happens when the defenses come down.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we might just need to express what's been bottled up inside.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of,
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:32
  an initial summary of some of what we talked about last episode
• 30:38
  to get us picked
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: up.
• 30:41
  And maybe just a reminder,
• 30:42
  you know,
• 30:42
  that that stuff comes out in the safest place.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: We save it.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: We save it for our loved ones.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: If things are going well, you know, that's what we can expect.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I appreciate that.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: If things are going well.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's in a healthy system.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: The defenses kick in to function, to perform.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: And when we feel safe, they come down.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because that shows there is safety to be had.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: There's rest to be had.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: At the end of the day, quote unquote.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: So the problem is when they get stuck,
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: when there is no safety,
• 31:39
  when there is not enough of the conditions needed to allow
• 31:45
  either ourselves or our
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: child to come to rest,
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: to have our tears,
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: to feel those vulnerable emotions again.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: And we talked a lot last episode,
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: too,
• 31:56
  about different examples of really vulnerable emotions that the
• 31:59
  brain is going to
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: be more likely to defend against.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Shyness, embarrassment, even futility.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: Just this whole key concept of adaptation, critical to our maturation.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: The feeling of futility,
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: of disappointment,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: of accepting that what we cannot change is a highly vulnerable emotion.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you can start to really see dependence,
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: being able to trust,
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: to lean on another if you've been betrayed or you feel like you can't.
• 32:33
  The defenses are going to kick in really easily around these
• 32:35
  things if we no longer
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: feel safe,
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: if the brain perceives too much wounding in the environment.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: And again,
• 32:44
  this is automatic and hugely important for us to understand our
• 32:51
  child that it is
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: not going to be willful,
• 32:56
  that it's going to just be the brain taking care of them when
• 33:02
  the wounding is too
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: great.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: And again, I want to reinforce what you just said.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 33:09
  because often what we see is our child acting out and we want
• 33:12
  to go into behavior
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: management and stop the behavior.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because we think that the child is... And I think it's unconscious.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know that we're really thinking about it.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's this assumption,
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: that the child should be able to control themselves,
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: and that this is something they're doing,
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: choosing to do,
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: and they could choose something else.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: But what you're saying is that's not the case.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: They're being moved.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's frustration in the system.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: It is moving them to behave in this way.
• 33:53
  And so can we see something different so that we can respond
• 33:59
  differently in that
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: moment and potentially create the safety the child needs to rest?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it becomes so tricky when it's the defenses.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's masking.
• 34:16
  And so our reading of our child,
• 34:21
  it just almost requires a little bit more.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like when we think about frustration moving and we see aggression,
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: that's pretty straightforward.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of our listeners,
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:32
  it's like we've talked about these things and hopefully there's
• 34:35
  some of that going
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: on where we have that insight.
• 34:39
  I'm going to give an example of my son's defenses kicking in
• 34:42
  and me just totally
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: not getting it.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll probably have a lot of these because where I'm like,
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: I said,
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: I want to talk about sensitivity.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: This is where this gets so tricky.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to, maybe I'll just dive in a little bit.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: So what's important to understand is that,
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: The greater the sensitivity,
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: this means if we're talking about a sensitive person,
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: myself,
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a sensitive,
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm an adult,
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: I was a sensitive child.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Both of my sons are sensitive children in different ways.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: My older son is highly sensitive,
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: perhaps hypersensitive,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: and I don't want to jump into those distinctions right at this moment,
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: but just
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: What ends up happening with him,
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: because he feels so much,
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: he is way more susceptible to wounding.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Way more.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: His brain sniffs it a mile away.
• 35:54
  Any criticism,
• 35:55
  anything he might have done wrong,
• 35:57
  any shame,
• 35:58
  any...
• 35:59
  It's like...
• 36:01
  hair trigger okay so is that because of that i'm sorry just
• 36:06
  yeah i want to yeah
• 36:07
  yeah yeah if i might there was a term that came from jesse
• 36:11
  manistow or a way that
• 36:12
  she described this that i liked and she said it's like the
• 36:16
  aperture on the camera
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: lets more in 100 right okay that like that
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: That can be true for a sensitive child and a hypersensitive child.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay?
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: So the stimuli coming in is more, more intense.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: There's more coming in.
• 36:34
  And so they have to defend against it to survive,
• 36:37
  like you were saying in the beginning.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: This is survival.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: The defendedness.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: Just like we talked about this whole kind of lead up here.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: The brain is going to protect against the wounding.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's too much to bear.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: For a sensitive child,
• 36:54
  the threshold at which the brain is going to do that is going
• 36:57
  to be way less.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: Way less.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: Here's an example.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: My son started middle school this week.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: He went from a classroom of eight children in a tiny little school.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Sixth grade peak experience to a middle school with 75 seventh graders.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: Now, some of you guys listening to this is going to say, that's tiny.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's a lot bigger middle schools than the one he's going to.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: But relatively speaking, this is a huge change.
• 37:33
  Part of we're also transitioning from summer where we sleep
• 37:37
  till eight o'clock in the morning.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now he's waking up at six and we haven't adjusted schedules.
• 37:43
  And part of what goes on for him is that he cannot eat right
• 37:46
  away in the morning
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: until he's hungry.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: But we don't have time.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: So yesterday he had to get to school a little early to talk to his,
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: the pressure was just so big and he's so sensitive.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: It was a lot at once.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: And he's saying, I'm not going to eat.
• 38:08
  And I know he has to get out of the door because he has to talk
• 38:12
  to this counselor
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: to address a situation that needs to be addressed with,
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: for his own good,
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: for his best interest.
• 38:21
  And we know he needs to eat for his best interest because he's
• 38:25
  got sports practice
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: after school and he's going to be starving.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: So all of this pressure is like coming down on parents and child.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, I'm not going to eat.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: And we're like, then you need to brush your teeth.
• 38:44
  And he just,
• 38:46
  you know,
• 38:46
  he just starts like,
• 38:49
  I'm not going to brush my teeth.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and so it's like we go back to that sun and the north wind.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I go full north wind mode, baby.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I'm just going to blow.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: I never do this.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: I never do this.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, get upstairs and brush your teeth now, you know?
• 39:09
  but what's going on for him is the wounding is just going sky
• 39:13
  high so his defenses
• 39:15
  are just getting stronger they're just locked in so no matter
• 39:21
  what i'm telling him
• 39:21
  to do he's going to reject it you know so it's like i don't
• 39:27
  know if this is helping
• 39:28
  or not but it's like reading that is like a whole new a whole
• 39:34
  nother level of
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: insight it's like
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: he's doing the opposite of what I need him to do right now.
• 39:42
  You know,
• 39:42
  it's like,
• 39:42
  it's like,
• 39:43
  it's counter will,
• 39:44
  but it's like out of defense.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's like,
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: and it's,
• 39:47
  it's also lashing out sometimes where it's like screaming back
• 39:51
  or resistance or,
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: and it's like for a,
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: for a parent in this mode where it's like,
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to make this work for you,
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know?
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: Our reaction can be just to lock down and they're locking down.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: When what's really needed is like to stop applying the pressure.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if that helps at all,
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: but it's like misreading that sensitivity is so easy to misread.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because what we're up against is a brick wall.
• 40:35
  What we think we're up against is willfulness or rejection or
• 40:38
  resistance or,
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: and it is.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: But what's underneath is it's the vulnerability is too much to bear with.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: The sensitivity is kicking in the defenses.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if that helps.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and I want to I want to highlight.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: What the parent is up against, too.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: I want to bring it back to this wounding world,
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 41:03
  where there's so much pressure on the parent to push the child
• 41:11
  through the day,
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_02: of the way,
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_02: just the way the culture is structured right now.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: That in and of itself...
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_02: is wounding.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's just, it's so challenging.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I love your abundance of grace.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: Can we be present in the moment to the needs of the moment, right?
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because what I'm hearing there too is you're,
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: you're focused on the future,
• 41:35
  which most of us are trying to get through the day to survive
• 41:39
  in this world,
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: and it,
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_02: and then we escalate and
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: we've got this pressure that we're up against and are unable,
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_02: like you were describing,
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_02: unable to see what's really happening for the kid.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so then we end up making it worse.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: Basically.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: And we've all done it.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 42:05
  Just another example,
• 42:06
  and I don't know for parents of sensitive kids out there,
• 42:08
  if this might
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: ring a bell and I think I've spoken to this in past episodes,
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: but one of the things that we had,
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: thank God,
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: we had this Neufeld material to help us with kind of at an earlier age,
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: like five,
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: six years old,
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: four,
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: five,
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: six years old,
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: was this thing where
• 42:30
  we'd be with our sons and our younger son would get injured and
• 42:36
  be crying.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: He'd be, you know, he'd have gone through some sort of traumatic thing.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: He was vulnerable.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, something bad had happened to him.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: Our older son would scream at him.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 42:51
  I just want to give another example here to try to understand
• 42:53
  how the challenging
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: this can be to understand what's happening.
• 42:59
  And our instinct,
• 43:00
  my instinct as a parent,
• 43:02
  as a mother,
• 43:03
  was to be like,
• 43:04
  you,
• 43:05
  this is awful.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: Our older son is attacking his brother when he's hurt.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: It was like so terrible.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it was my wife who finally clued in.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: Our older son felt so much.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: It was alarm.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: It was worry.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: It was fear.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: It was, you know, for this injury that his defense just kicked right in.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it looked like...
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: him being callous, self-centered.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, again, what we see determines what we do.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: Do we see a child who is sensitive, who is afraid or in pain?
• 43:57
  when our older son gets hurt to this day if he falls and trips
• 44:01
  if he gets a bee
• 44:01
  sting sometimes he will scream at whoever's next to him just
• 44:07
  it's it's like
• 44:08
  instantaneous it's our fault he's screaming he's blaming he's
• 44:11
  doing all and this is
• 44:13
  remember like way back when i said this is odious behavior it's
• 44:16
  like it's it repels
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: you because it's so terrible to like have this child who's like
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: you're trying to comfort, but who's like screaming at you, you know?
• 44:31
  To be able to stretch yourself enough to be like,
• 44:34
  don't take this personally.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: This is a defense against this woman he's super sensitive to.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: You don't see the tears.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: You don't see the vulnerability,
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: which then you could say,
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: he's sensitive because he's crying.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's not always what you see.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: You see the attack or the resistance or the defense.
• 44:59
  And you really have to like step back and interpret this
• 45:05
  situation is too much for
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: him right now.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is too much sensory pain or experience or overload.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why he's lashing out.
• 45:17
  And the consciousness it takes to do that as the parent,
• 45:23
  you know,
• 45:24
  so hard.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're freaking out now because of what you're seeing.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: You're seeing a lack of empathy, right?
• 45:36
  You're seeing,
• 45:37
  you know,
• 45:38
  like where your mind goes is going to create fear.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: And that fear is going to hijack you, you know, when you're...
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's so much parenting.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so for the parents of these very sensitive kids out there,
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's highly sensitive,
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: hypersensitive.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: And again, it can be for our highly sensitive kids.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: It can be tactile.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: It can be auditory.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: It can be just the feelings, the emotions that.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: there's all these different ways that sensitivity can be expressed,
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: but it's what Neufeld says is that it's systemic.
• 46:18
  So it's like once you figure out if you can pull the dots
• 46:21
  together and say,
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: I do have a sensitive child.
• 46:26
  These are kind of this is part of his constitution,
• 46:30
  you know,
• 46:31
  his his makeup.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: Then you can.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to use this term compensate.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: You can.
• 46:40
  Adapt your own expectations and your own understanding of what
• 46:45
  this child needs.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sorry, but it is going to be different than other kids.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where we have to let go of our own peer orientation,
• 46:57
  where we're so focused on the judgment of others towards the
• 47:00
  way that we may have
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: to parent differently.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that's hard too.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I think one clue to that can also be,
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_02: and not always,
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure of this,
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: but how sensitive are we?
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because sensitive people tend to be sensitive kids.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think, and this is from my
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: listening to like gender,
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: a wider lens and Jesse and,
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: many still,
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: and so much of this kind of gender world content.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: I do think that these gifted,
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: hyper and or highly sensitive kids,
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_00: they are more vulnerable to trans identity,
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: ID identity.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: There are more, um,
• 47:59
  aspects that can align and and so it's like these family
• 48:02
  systems i've heard stella
• 48:04
  and sasha speak to this in some episodes where it's like these
• 48:08
  family systems
• 48:09
  almost take this journey together and you have these
• 48:14
  temperaments that parents and
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_02: children share well and i mean it seems pretty obvious clear that
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_02: It provides an amazing defense, the identity, right?
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's... Yeah.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's that shield.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: To protect the vulnerability.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's vulnerable to be yourself.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: And wounding.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, in this world...
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_02: this.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just kind of a,
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: a deeper dive into,
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: if you have a sensitive child,
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: you're going to have a more defended child.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: They're just going to go hand in hand.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: And again, what then do we need to do?
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: We'll
• 49:24
  to allow for that place of softness and rest and safety instead
• 49:29
  of increasing their
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: wounding through the way that we respond or react to their defenses.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: One thing that came to mind,
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 49:42
  as we've been talking through this that I wrote down that I
• 49:45
  know comes up often and
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe this isn't the time to get into it,
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: but maybe as we're talking about,
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_02: what do you do?
• 49:53
  You know,
• 49:54
  is the sense that moms often have that they've got to walk
• 49:56
  around on eggshells,
• 49:58
  right?
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_02: Does having a highly sensitive kid mean that?
• 50:02
  Is that what life is going to be like for the parent of a
• 50:05
  highly sensitive kid?
• 50:07
  You know,
• 50:08
  this sort of vigilance and this fear of setting the kid off all
• 50:12
  the time.
• 50:14
  And I guess another piece of that is this lack of authenticity
• 50:21
  in relationship
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_02: because you can't,
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_02: this feeling that you can't just be yourself.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_02: You've always got to be vigilant is the word that comes to mind, right?
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like policing yourself.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what about boundaries with these kids?
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's like,
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: it is a question of if that walking on eggshells means that you are,
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: that the child is in alpha mode and you are kind of...
• 51:08
  following that you're more in that secret mode that is going to
• 51:13
  be something you
• 51:14
  you want to address yes and and that because that's gonna i'm
• 51:21
  sorry go ahead
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's going to decrease safety.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have a sensitive child,
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: more easily wounded,
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: more likely to have the defenses up,
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: more likely to go into alpha,
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: out of defense.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: In that if they don't feel safe and secure in the world,
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: the brain is going to push them to take charge.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_02: And again, this is not conscious or willful.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_02: This is a defense.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_02: This is survival.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, exactly.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_02: Even though it's messy and not very effective.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 52:11
  So sometimes what I have said to my son recently is,
• 52:16
  and this is my messiness too,
• 52:19
  I'll say,
• 52:20
  He'll ask me a question,
• 52:22
  whether it's what is for dinner or what are we doing.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm bracing myself for being told how bad of an idea it is at times.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: Not always.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's just at times.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: I can tell when it's coming.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: I will say...
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 52:40
  I can tell you and then you can go ahead and tell me what a bad
• 52:44
  idea it is and how
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: wrong I am and how,
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: and just go ahead and get it over with.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like it's just these ways of
• 52:55
  If you know it's coming,
• 52:58
  trying to get a little bit into that alpha role,
• 53:00
  not being a jerk.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I can be a jerk.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just be honest with everyone.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: My kids were listening.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: No, really?
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: They'd laugh because I do.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm messy with all this.
• 53:12
  And sometimes I'm just going to blurt something out that I'm
• 53:16
  like,
• 53:16
  oh,
• 53:16
  well.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: But it is...
• 53:22
  it is quite possible that that walking on eggshells will
• 53:27
  resolve if the alpha
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: dynamic is addressed naturally.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that you're not going to still be like,
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: you're going to be mad at me about this,
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: so bring it on.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_00: You might still need to manage that known reaction that's going to come.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_00: But if you are like, yeah,
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_00: This is part of how we're going to work together.
• 53:53
  This is part of the deal we got in our relationship and how
• 53:59
  we're going to interact.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't freak out about it.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that's it too, I think.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's like being able to tolerate the outbursts,
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_02: rather than,
• 54:14
  I think the eggshells maybe come from feeling like you're meant
• 54:17
  to avoid those all
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_02: the time.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, you can't.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not about that.
• 54:22
  It's knowing that they're going to happen,
• 54:25
  calling them out,
• 54:26
  being able to tolerate them,
• 54:28
  right?
• 54:28
  I think that's something else that happens when we go into this
• 54:30
  situation.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_02: shame and self-judgment because our child is acting out,
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_02: being obnoxious,
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_02: causing a scene or just treating me poorly.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_02: They're mad at me.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_02: And they're saying vicious things to me,
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_02: and being able to,
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_02: it's the not take it personally,
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_02: which is hard.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_00: And not, not, um,
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how to articulate this,
• 55:05
  but I think when you get in those times of like emotional
• 55:08
  outburst and it's big,
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: it can be dense,
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_00: it can be just so overwhelming for you as a parent.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine what it's like being inside your child.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: If they're just being moved by this.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: So the thing that I'm always conscious of,
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_00: and I don't know how to say this,
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: but it's like,
• 55:31
  I don't want to add a layer of meaning to that that is
• 55:35
  pathologizing or this is
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_00: traumatic.
• 55:39
  It's like,
• 55:39
  how do we move through a moment like that and keep it light on
• 55:43
  the other side?
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, your frustration got over the top.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: Mine did too.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: that's where at least at a younger age and it's not,
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: there's got to be ways to do this with older too.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I would say, well, I turned into a booger eating warthog.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_00: The plague.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's what came to my mind too.
• 56:07
  Where instead of making it heavier and more loaded and what we
• 56:11
  experienced was just terrible.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, hey, we're going to ride these roller coasters.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_00: They are part of life now.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: And the great thing is we get to the other side.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because women are bigger than us.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_00: That is so deeply unsettling for a child.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: If we say these emotions are bigger than we can handle,
• 56:36
  that alpha mode is going to be locked in even harder because
• 56:40
  they're like,
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: I am too much for my mom.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_02: And by alpha mode, right.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think you've also called it alpha complex.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 56:51
  The child has an alpha complex and they feel like they have to
• 56:55
  take charge because
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_02: mom can't handle me.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm too much.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm too much for mom.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_02: So for listeners.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_02: Scary.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_02: That is scary for a child.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_00: So terrifying, whether they are conscious of it or not.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_00: The brain registers it.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: And for a sensitive,
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: a parent of a sensitive child,
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: boy,
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: oh boy,
• 57:19
  you got to fake it till you make it because they're going to
• 57:23
  sniff your fear.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: They're going to sniff your lack of confidence.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_00: They're going to smell it a mile away.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: The brain is just going to pick it up.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it is a practice of being like, yeah, we got this.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_00: I got this.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_02: And... And you may not like it.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_02: You may not like how I got this.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_02: And that's okay.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_02: I... That was something I struggled with.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I... To me, relationship meant they like me.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so I had a hard time tolerating... The...
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_02: tension, you know, and I definitely picked my battles.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_02: I will say that I,
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_02: I was,
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_02: I,
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_02: I stood my ground on the things that were the absolute most important.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_02: And then I could, I could go playful with,
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm trying to remember if there was a point where that switched for me.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm very imperfect at this.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_02: I still often feel threatened by,
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_02: my children's opinions of me because I'm not the mom,
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_02: you know.
• 58:49
  I'm not the mom they wish they had a lot of the time because I
• 58:53
  have all the wrong
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_02: opinions,
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_02: And that's confusing and hard.
• 59:00
  And so a line that I've used sometimes around that is,
• 59:03
  I wish I could be.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know?
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_02: I wish I could be that mom.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_02: But that doesn't feel right to me, so I have to do this.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I know you're not going to like it.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_02: And this is how it is.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 59:20
  And what you're saying kind of takes me back to some prior
• 59:24
  episodes where we talked
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: through ways that you can come alongside that frustration.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you aren't doing what they want you to do,
• 59:33
  There's going to be a lot of frustration in the system because
• 59:37
  it's not working for them.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_00: And coming alongside that is what you're doing when you say that.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: You're saying, you know, I'm not who you want me to be right now.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not doing what you want me to do.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't working for you.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sorry, I wish I could make it work.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_00: I wish I could be different, but I'm not.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I just want to also acknowledge,
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_02: again,
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_02: in this wounding world,
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_02: how painful and scary that is for our kids.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_02: I can see it.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_02: I could see it in my son.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_02: The confusion,
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:00:19
  of him trying to make sense of this mom that he did feel very
• 1:00:24
  attached to.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_02: Having the wrong opinions that he is being told are dangerous,
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_02: that are hurting people,
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_02: painful and confusing.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, gosh, seriously.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so,
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_02: I was able to find that compassion for him,
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_02: which is hard,
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_02: too,
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_02: because it did make it hard to parent.
• 1:00:48
  It made it so hard to parents,
• 1:00:51
  you know,
• 1:00:51
  and to make these calls that he...
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_02: That scared him, frankly.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_02: And standing by them.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_02: Hard.
• 1:01:04
  And I will say,
• 1:01:05
  though,
• 1:01:07
  I could see there was this sort of tension that we have talked
• 1:01:12
  about.
• 1:01:13
  You know,
• 1:01:13
  there's this sort of disconnect that is inevitable in this
• 1:01:17
  world.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, because of these differing worldviews.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yet the respect was there.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:01:24
  we would have a difficult conversation and I could just feel
• 1:01:29
  the closeness too,
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like it was both and,
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_02: he respected me for not caving,
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_02: which would have forced him into alpha mode.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_02: But it was all unconscious.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_02: This is all unconscious.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_02: He was not going to say anything for me to be to feel seen.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like I couldn't need that from him.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because that and this is tricky,
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_02: tricky stuff to navigate,
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_02: but and a lot of it is a felt sense.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:02:09
  too yes you know and and getting to know your own emotions and
• 1:02:14
  feelings you know so
• 1:02:16
  you can monitor and bring that consciousness i mean it takes
• 1:02:19
  the consciousness to
• 1:02:20
  monitor it you know but this is this is and this is where um
• 1:02:28
  you said something too
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_02: about you can't rush your healing yeah yeah
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_02: Which I agree with.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you can choose to move toward it and educate yourself.
• 1:02:40
  But listening to this podcast is a way to educate yourself so
• 1:02:45
  you can bring more consciousness.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_02: You having this Neufeld model gives you a template,
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:02:54
  and something that can increase that awareness so that you can
• 1:02:59
  slowly start doing
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_02: your own work.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 1:03:06
  And you're going to try and sometimes it's going to work and
• 1:03:09
  other times it's not.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I just think about this when I think about like,
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_00: don't let your child feel like they are too much for you.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like that is one of Neufeld's like golden rules.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I am sure I have done that.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just certain of it.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to have that, build up that resilience to
• 1:03:33
  make to try and fail to try and also to fail and to stand back
• 1:03:39
  up again try again
• 1:03:42
  you know and it's we're not ever going to be perfect we will
• 1:03:47
  never reach perfection
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_00: um so we have you know to build up our our inner reserves of like
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just,
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to get back up and I'm going to try this time again,
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm going to try to remember this.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to try to hold on to this.
• 1:04:05
  I'm going to try to remember that I did feel good about my
• 1:04:09
  confidence in this
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_00: example and I can do it again,
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm not always going to be able to do it.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to,
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to fail.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm human.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_02: And you know what?
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_02: Our kids benefit from that too.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_02: If we were perfect, think of the bar that sets.
• 1:04:29
  We also have to model that grace and self-compassion and the
• 1:04:35
  getting back up.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_02: And that's to our episode on the mix.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_02: That I care enough for
• 1:04:46
  you know,
• 1:04:46
  I can add caring to this and find the courage to keep trying as
• 1:04:51
  hard as it is.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's beautifully said.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking of caring, maybe I'll just tell one last story.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_00: I know we're kind of coming to the end here of our time,
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_00: but I just want to give,
• 1:05:15
  and maybe this will ring true for other parents who have these
• 1:05:19
  highly sensitive
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_00: children.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_00: So often, what I see in my son is a defense against caring.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_00: So often.
• 1:05:32
  You wiped your hands on your shirt again when you were eating,
• 1:05:35
  you're full of grease stains.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_00: I don't care.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, just these different things, like anything that could be...
• 1:05:43
  a mistake or a lack or something he didn't do right a flaw just
• 1:05:49
  that defense
• 1:05:50
  against caring just boom goes right in okay and it's and it can
• 1:05:55
  be so frustrating
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_00: because it's like he doesn't care you know he doesn't care
• 1:06:00
  oh boy do these sensitive kids care they care so much and just
• 1:06:09
  an example that i
• 1:06:10
  always have to go back to and it brings tears to my eyes when
• 1:06:15
  my son was like four
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_00: years old we had moved into a new apartment
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_00: We had visited back home.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_00: We were back in our, you know, new place of living.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_00: And a friend of mine had gifted me this bracelet of made with like,
• 1:06:32
  she grew these plants that had seed pods that had natural
• 1:06:36
  hollows in them.
• 1:06:37
  So she would make these beautiful bracelets with like elastic
• 1:06:40
  string with these
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_00: seeds,
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_00: these dried seeds around them.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I was wearing this bracelet on my wrist.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_00: And he came up to me and he pulled on it.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it broke.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think he pulled on it.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_00: I said, don't pull on it.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_00: He pulled on it a second time.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_00: It broke.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_00: So he felt so bad about this.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_00: He felt bad in the moment.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I am not joking.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is eight years ago.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_00: Just last week, he brought it up.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_00: Listeners, my son still feels bad.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_00: He is still sorry that he broke my bracelet.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, this is how vulnerable these sensitive kids are.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_00: But because of that vulnerability,
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_00: that sensitivity,
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_00: they move through the world with the defenses locked in.
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, not locked in, but they're often up.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_00: They're often there.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so we perceive them as not caring.
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's not true of their core.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's not true of their heart.
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's the armor that we are interacting with.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because that tenderness is so vast.
• 1:08:07
  It's so deep that he will carry this with him,
• 1:08:13
  that moment of upsetting me.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_00: probably maybe his whole life.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_00: At this point, breaking that bracelet.
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_02: Especially if he's pulling it back up and talking about it again, right?
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's becoming a core memory for him.
• 1:08:40
  So I have to remind,
• 1:08:42
  like we talked about a couple episodes ago,
• 1:08:45
  like maintaining that
• 1:08:47
  sensory attachment,
• 1:08:48
  it kind of brings us full circle back to the start of this
• 1:08:50
  episode.
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_00: When our child has physically changed,
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_00: maintaining that,
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_00: going back to the eyes,
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_00: like what are the ways that we can stay attached at the senses and
• 1:09:02
  to maintain our connection and to our child,
• 1:09:06
  even if they physically change.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_00: This is a similar thing for me, what I do with my sensitive boy.
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_00: I have to go back to that four-year-old who broke the bracelet.
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_00: I have to go back and reconnect my heart and my softness to that profound
• 1:09:28
  vulnerability that he carries to get through my perception of
• 1:09:35
  his armor because I'm
• 1:09:38
  backing up against that armor and I have to bridge through it
• 1:09:44
  by connecting to the
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_00: tenderness of that four-year-old heart.
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I've had this thought.
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's beautiful.
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_02: And tugs at my heart, as you describe that, you know.
• 1:10:02
  And the feeling sense of that,
• 1:10:07
  that I can also imagine moms themselves being defended against.
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_02: that's,
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_02: that's a difficult place to get yourself to,
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_02: I would imagine,
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_02: because of the way it's going to feel in your body.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_02: And the thought that I had,
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_02: and I'm curious what you think of this,
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_02: because I'm doing shadow work often with these moms,
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_02: is,
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_02: and the repulsion around,
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_02: some of these physical changes,
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_02: is this,
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_02: is that layer of meaning,
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_02: when you talked about that extra layer of meaning,
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_02: that that is such a visible sensory,
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_02: right,
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_02: reminder of the separation.
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 1:10:59
  Which,
• 1:11:00
  again,
• 1:11:00
  as we talked about at the beginning of the episode,
• 1:11:02
  is traumatic for a parent.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_02: It is.
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's traumatic.
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:11:09
  so I think doing your own work is crucial for survival and to
• 1:11:18
  stay in relationship
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_02: with our kids.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:11:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Find that,
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_00: like we talked about again,
• 1:11:25
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:11:25
  SPEAKER_00: in that couple episodes ago,
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_00: finding that thread.
• 1:11:28
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, how do I stay, whether we're talking about the senses or...
• 1:11:36
  finding that memory in yourself that opens your heart to that
• 1:11:39
  softness where you
• 1:11:40
  can connect with the vulnerability of your own child even if
• 1:11:45
  what they're coming to
• 1:11:46
  you with is the defenses how do i remember that my sweet child
• 1:11:53
  there's still that
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_00: four-year-old there you know
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's still the vulnerability of that four-year-old there.
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's still, even if the heart is just armored.
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_02: Gosh, Rose.
• 1:12:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I feel like I've got stuff coming up.
• 1:12:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think we need to talk through at least a little bit of it.
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_02: Because in some ways, moms do have to let go, too, of that child version.
• 1:12:27
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:12:28
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and so I want to be careful, I guess, with this strategy.
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_02: Does it... Hmm.
• 1:12:45
  SPEAKER_02: Can it create a clinging, I think, for mom?
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's going to be unhelpful.
• 1:12:55
  So I guess just the amount of consciousness that something like
• 1:12:58
  this takes,
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:13:01
  SPEAKER_02: to navigate this season.
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:13:09
  Yeah.
• 1:13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's a mixing, you know?
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's a mixing.
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's like connecting that thread to the tenderness,
• 1:13:16
  remembering the vulnerability that's there while also seeing
• 1:13:20
  your child for their
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_00: growth and expansion and change as they grow into adulthood.
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:13:31
  SPEAKER_02: This can feel like too much to bear for mom.
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 1:13:35
  SPEAKER_02: So their defenses are coming online.
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:13:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess grace for that too.
• 1:13:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:13:51
  if it's too much to bear to extend the generous invitation that
• 1:14:03
  your defenses are
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_02: there for a reason.
• 1:14:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_02: What am I saying here?
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I think mom needs space.
• 1:14:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:14:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:14:21
  You know,
• 1:14:22
  and that maybe it's okay to not always show up if you're not
• 1:14:31
  feeling it.
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_02: if it feels like too much to bear,
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_02: maybe it's okay to take a break and figure out how to get your needs met.
• 1:14:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:14:45
  SPEAKER_02: Outside of this relationship.
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 1:14:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think we did speak to that a bit a couple episodes ago.
• 1:14:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:14:53
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:14:56
  Well,
• 1:14:56
  I'm going to reinforce that because I know that I think a lot
• 1:14:59
  of moms feel that pressure.
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:15:02
  SPEAKER_02: To power through.
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:15:09
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:15:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm nodding.
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody can see me except for you.
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just, I'm over here nodding.
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I remember to remind that that's happening.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for doing that.
• 1:15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we covered a lot of ground today.
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 1:15:31
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_02: And reinforced a lot, I think.
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:15:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think put some pieces together even, you know.
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_00: And as always,
• 1:15:43
  SPEAKER_00: I know many of you are not,
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_00: comfortable leaving comments,
• 1:15:47
  SPEAKER_00: but whatever means that you have of sharing feedback or,
• 1:15:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:15:52
  SPEAKER_00: thoughts,
• 1:15:53
  SPEAKER_00: what things have come up,
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_00: we always want to welcome that.
• 1:15:57
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time.
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time.
• 1:16:03
  SPEAKER_02: Take care of yourselves.
• 1:16:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for listening.
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_02: We hope you take something of value from our conversation today.
• 1:16:10
  Be sure to subscribe to our Substack to have new episodes
• 1:16:13
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• 1:16:15
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• 1:16:17
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• 1:16:20
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• 1:16:22
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• 1:16:23
  we encourage you to share your feedback and takeaways in the
• 1:16:25
  comments and hope you
• 1:16:27
  SPEAKER_02: will join us for the next episode of Attachment Matters.