Latest / The Smart Cookies podcast / You're a MEDIEVAL King in the Middle East... and the MONGOLS have just showed up. With Nicholas Morton | Pt. 1

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You're a MEDIEVAL King in the Middle East... and the MONGOLS have just showed up. With Nicholas Morton | Pt. 1 · The Smart Cookies podcast

0:04
It is with the utmost pleasure that I am welcoming
0:07
back a friend of the show, medieval historian
0:09
Professor Nicholas Morton from Nottingham Trent
0:12
University, author of many, many fantastic books,
0:15
although the one we will really have in our crosshairs
0:18
today is called The Mongol Storm, Breaking Empires
0:22
in the Medieval Near East. Professor Morton,
0:25
Nick, welcome to the show. Thank you so much.
0:27
It's great to be back with you. Now, last time
0:30
you were on... We were tackling the feverish
0:32
action pact, but at times also surprisingly cordial
0:36
history of the Crusades. So talking about the
0:40
Mongol invasions all of a sudden must feel like
0:42
a big sudden thematic switcheroo. But that's
0:46
actually not at all the case, as we will find
0:48
out. Not only are we staying in the same region,
0:51
the Near East, and at roughly the same time,
0:54
but in many ways, this is a direct sequel to
0:57
the story of the Crusades. By the way, if you
1:00
haven't listened to those two episodes, I demand
1:02
you hit pause on this one right now and come
1:05
back after you've done so, because you will seriously
1:07
regret it otherwise. Yes, yes. All right, Professor,
1:12
so much stuff to talk to. But when reading the
1:14
opening chapter of your amazing book, which is
1:18
kind of an overview of the region on the eve
1:21
of the Mongol invasions, the first thing that
1:24
struck me could be summarized in a single...
1:27
Quite unexpected word, and that's diversity.
1:30
So the lands of the Near East were many things,
1:33
but what they were quite obviously not were some
1:36
sort of monocultural, homogeneous, perfectly
1:39
defined ethnic states. It wasn't one distinct
1:43
civilization pitted against another civilization.
1:47
So before the boogeyman makes his way over, what
1:52
was the political... situation in the region
1:54
like? Could you set the stage a little bit for
1:57
us? Yeah, and this is why I find this period
2:01
and this topic so interesting. It's because it
2:04
is so complex. Across the Middle East, you've
2:07
got the Byzantine Empire, and that's basically
2:11
just a continuation of the Eastern Roman Empire.
2:15
You've got the Iubid Empire, ruled by Saladin's
2:20
descendants. You've got the Abbasid Caliphate,
2:23
the main authority for Sunni Islam in Baghdad.
2:29
You have the Anatolian Seljuks in Central and
2:32
Eastern Turkey, as it would be today, which is
2:35
a state that has survived from the great Seljuk
2:39
invasions out of Central Asia in the 11th century.
2:43
You've got the Christian Armenians in Greater
2:46
Armenia. and also in what today be south of southern
2:50
central turkey in silesia you have the crusader
2:54
states which were created by the first crusade
2:57
and they're still there clinging on to the coastline
3:00
of the eastern mediterranean And this is only
3:03
a starting point. We've got Bedouin groups. We've
3:05
got Kurds. We've got Turkmen. There's so many
3:09
different peoples across the Middle East. And
3:11
they've all got different cultures. And they've
3:13
all got different friends and enemies and allies
3:16
and grudges. And they've all got different cultures
3:19
and food and technologies and ideas and spiritualities.
3:24
And they're all busy fighting each other, conducting
3:28
diplomacy. trading, exchanging ideas in a very
3:32
small space. It's a fascinating period and it
3:35
definitely is a gift to a historian because you've
3:38
got so much you can bring out. But again, this
3:40
is not like this classical image that we have
3:45
one religion against another, like Christianity
3:49
against Islam. Yeah, so it's fairly common when
3:55
you sort of... talk to people sort of test what's
3:58
common knowledge about the middle east in this
4:00
era to think that we're talking about an environment
4:04
where you have a map with two halves a christian
4:07
half and a muslim half and they fight that would
4:10
almost be sort of the classic way in which it's
4:12
presented or certainly the way it's talked about
4:14
but it's it's very very inaccurate um you should
4:18
imagine instead of patchwork of different states
4:22
all of which have their own different identities
4:24
and their own different ideas. Yes, there are
4:28
Christian states and there are Muslim states,
4:30
but there are plenty of alliances between them.
4:32
And there are plenty of occasions when you have
4:35
armies on one side of the battlefield, including
4:38
Christians and Muslims, and armies on the other
4:40
side of the battlefield, including Christians
4:43
and Muslims. And the causes of war are incredibly
4:46
complex. Yes, holy war can be a cause of war.
4:50
whether that's Christian holy war or Islamic.
4:53
But also you've got competition over grazing
4:56
lands, competition over trade routes, wars over
5:00
cities, dynasties fighting other dynasties for
5:03
power, both within their enemies, their empires
5:06
and against their enemies. You've got individuals
5:08
and their grudges or friendships. The causes
5:11
of war are incredibly complex. And I think that...
5:16
again that's what makes the area so fascinating
5:18
it's got so many layers and it's messy and i've
5:23
always liked messy history because human beings
5:26
are messy amen everything we do is messy we create
5:29
mess and so if if you read history and it feels
5:32
too tidy you should probably be concerned about
5:36
it uh i'm really grateful you can't see the rest
5:39
of my room right now because it's extremely messy
5:41
as well uh by the way so sometimes you're gonna
5:44
have like a Christian power, let's say Byzantium,
5:47
allied themselves with like an Islamic power
5:51
against another Christian power. That's not unusual
5:54
in that period and at that time. It can happen.
5:57
I mean, so for example, the Byzantines hire large
6:00
numbers of Turkish warriors to fight in their
6:03
various campaigns, sometimes against Western
6:06
Europeans, sometimes against other opponents.
6:08
It's very common. The Crusader States, so that...
6:12
territories created by the first crusade again
6:14
they ally at times with neighboring muslim powers
6:18
it's not uncommon either against other muslim
6:21
powers or against other opponents and of course
6:25
this is all as you say before the mongols arrive
6:28
and of course when the mongols arrive changes
6:32
everything and you have plenty of occasions where
6:34
people try to sort of form alliances to try and
6:37
deal with this new threat and the new sort of
6:39
environment it creates. I was just about to say,
6:42
this already sounds like a demented round of
6:46
that board game called Risk that we used to play.
6:50
And to complicate matters even further, the Mongols
6:53
are going to arrive pretty soon. But just to
6:55
establish a timeline, when exactly, we're not
6:57
going to go into it in detail right now, but
6:59
when exactly do the Mongols appear at the borders
7:02
of this region? Okay, so... I'll tell you the
7:06
story. The Mongols didn't attack the Middle East
7:11
first. Their initial growth was within Mongolia
7:15
itself, which is to the north of China. And Chinggis
7:19
Khan... Genghis Khan, as he's sometimes known,
7:21
his first campaigns were against, as you might
7:24
expect, neighbouring groups within Mongolia and
7:28
its immediate surroundings. And he spent a lot
7:30
of his career just trying to build up a basic
7:32
sort of unit for himself, fighting against various
7:35
different rivals and opponents. Then he waged
7:39
war, devastating war, into northern China, much
7:44
of which he conquered. as well as other surrounding
7:47
territories. And so by the time the Mongols first
7:50
reach the outskirts of, or even head in the direction
7:53
of the Middle East, they're already fairly well
7:56
established. And China's been their major sort
7:59
of goal outside Mongolia to begin with. But the
8:05
story goes like this, and it's not an easy story
8:09
because it's got loose ends. But as much as we
8:12
know, it goes like this. There is a border town
8:16
in Central Asia where the steppe region reaches
8:20
the north of what is ultimately sort of Persia
8:23
further south. And there's a border town called
8:26
Uttra. And a group of Mongol merchants reached
8:32
Uttra in order to trade their various goods from
8:37
the Central Asian steppe region. And for reasons
8:40
that aren't quite clear. the town governor called
8:45
Inalchuk arrested all of them. Now, the obvious
8:50
question to ask is why? We don't know. People
8:53
have speculated perhaps the Mongols were considered
8:57
to be spying, or perhaps there was some kind
9:00
of disagreement in the marketplace. It's not
9:03
really clear, but they were arrested. So then
9:07
Inalchuk He is the governor of the town, and
9:10
the town itself is part of a much broader empire
9:12
centered in Persia, that's modern -day Iran,
9:15
called the Khwarezmian Empire. And he sent back
9:20
reports of his arrest to the Khwarezmian sultan,
9:24
and basically said, what shall I do with these
9:27
people? I arrested them, what next? And the sultan's
9:31
instructions were very striking. Execute all
9:35
of them. Now, again, that's an extreme action.
9:39
And again, we don't know why. But Inalchuk duly
9:45
carried out his instructions and he killed all
9:49
the Mongol merchants, except that he didn't.
9:51
He missed one. And according to the reports,
9:56
there was one Indian merchant attached to the
9:59
Mongol caravan that got away. and got back to
10:03
Chinggis Khan. And you can imagine what his reaction
10:06
would have been. So a few months later, a massive
10:11
Mongol invasion army appears outside Uttara.
10:14
Uttara falls fairly rapidly. And Inalchuk is
10:18
executed in a particularly brutal way by having
10:21
molten metal. Oh my God, that's some Game of
10:23
Thrones stuff right there. I'm not a great Game
10:26
of Thrones fan, but I think I have seen that
10:28
episode. I think one of the characters is executed
10:30
that way in one of the early seasons. Is that
10:32
right? Okay. But yeah, so it's a particularly
10:36
brutal way to execute someone. And from that
10:39
point, the Mongols then gather together all the
10:42
able -bodied people of Uttara and then force
10:46
them to march to the next nearest city. where
10:50
the mongols drive all these people ahead of their
10:52
assault troops so the defenders of this city
10:55
pour their arrow fire and their catapult ammunition
10:58
onto all these people who are being herded ahead
11:01
of the mongol army they're all killed But that
11:04
wastes their ammunition. So when the ammunition
11:06
is gone, the Mongols send in their actual troops.
11:08
And then they do the same thing again. So this
11:11
sort of Operation Human Shield kind of a thing.
11:13
Yeah, it's incredibly brutal, but it's very effective.
11:17
And with this, the Mongols then advance into
11:20
the borders of the Khwarazmian Empire and take
11:22
the eastern part of it. But they send a column
11:25
because the Mongols have a practice, which is
11:29
that when they attack and seize an empire, they
11:32
always hunt down. the ruling family. It's something
11:35
they do as a matter of course. So they send a
11:38
flying column of about 20 ,000 troops to hunt
11:41
down the Khwarazmian ruler. Well, they never
11:44
find him. In the process of searching for him,
11:47
this force goes south of the Caspian Sea and
11:50
then up through the Caucasus, that's modern day
11:53
Armenia and Georgia and Azerbaijan, that sort
11:56
of area. And in doing so, that dramatically draws
11:59
the local people's attention to the fact that
12:02
there is now a very, very significant threat
12:05
on their far eastern borders. And this is when
12:09
people start to worry in the Middle East. This
12:11
flying column arrives in 1220, 1221, but this
12:15
is the trigger. Once this happens, they know
12:17
there's something very big that's about to happen.
12:20
Basically, at that point, the Khwarazmian Empire
12:21
collapsed. just like that, even though it was
12:24
a huge regional, a sophisticated regional powerhouse,
12:28
so to speak. The eastern and central districts
12:30
did, yes. Some of its western districts survived
12:34
for a bit at least. But what's interesting is
12:38
that while all this is going on, of course, the
12:41
Middle East isn't standing still and doing nothing.
12:44
There's lots of other things going on in the
12:47
Middle East at this time. And one of those things
12:49
is there's a crusade going on in Egypt. The Fifth
12:53
Crusade. And the Fifth Crusade is fairly straightforward.
12:57
It's a campaign seeking to take Egypt because
13:02
the Crusaders know that Egypt is the agricultural
13:05
and commercial powerhouse of the Middle East.
13:08
So the idea is take Egypt and then with Egypt
13:12
under the Crusaders' control, that will guarantee
13:16
the permanent reconquest of Jerusalem. That's
13:20
what they're trying to do. But while they're
13:23
conducting this campaign, rumors begin to filter
13:27
in of some distant enemy who's waging war. Let's
13:32
hit pause here just for a second, because we're
13:35
definitely going to talk about this later. But
13:37
I want to talk just a little bit about the Mongols
13:39
first. Now, a fascinating aspect of their culture
13:43
that keeps getting referenced in your book that
13:46
I want to understand a bit better is their belief
13:48
that their conquests are mandated by what they
13:51
call the eternal heavens. So can you tell us
13:55
a bit more about this belief system? Okay, so
13:58
the Mongols have a very rich spiritual life.
14:01
They see the landscape as very much infused with
14:05
spirituality. So where a different culture might
14:08
see... mountains, hills, a river. The Mongols
14:13
might see the mountains where the jinn live,
14:16
the evil spirits, or a river that's full of,
14:19
again, full of spirits and full of spiritual
14:23
entities. So when you drink from running water
14:27
or wash your clothes, you have to be very careful
14:29
so that you appease the spirits. So the landscape
14:32
is infused with spirituality, but also the sky.
14:38
Now, people have compared the eternal sky or
14:42
Tengri to a god. But in fact, people, some of
14:47
the experts on this subject have queried this.
14:49
It's more a sort of spiritual force in the sky.
14:53
And Chinggis Khan, so the stories go, felt that
14:58
he had received a mandate from the eternal sky
15:02
for planetary conquest. Everything. the entire
15:08
human species. Now, there is a historical debate
15:12
around this. Some historians say that actually
15:14
this ideology, this belief, didn't really come
15:18
out in its fullness until under Chinggis Khan's
15:21
heirs. Some people think it was Chinggis Khan
15:23
himself who pioneered this view. But the point
15:27
is this. The Mongols feel that the entire world
15:30
is theirs by right. And we know they didn't conquer
15:35
the world in... looking at looking back at things
15:38
from the 21st century but i can't stress this
15:41
clearly enough to someone living in the 1220s
15:45
1230s or even as late as the 1260s it is by no
15:48
means clear that this is false because if the
15:51
mongols are conquering everywhere year after
15:53
year and no one can stop them maybe it's right
15:57
maybe this was right all along because it's vindicated
16:00
by perpetual success. Would you say that this
16:03
theology, this mandate from eternal heavens of
16:07
theirs, that this is what ultimately drove them
16:10
to burst out of the steppe and just keep on conquering
16:13
without really turning back, more so than any
16:15
kind of actual material need for land and plunder?
16:19
It's very difficult to say. There have been various...
16:24
The Mongols aren't the first steppe empire to
16:27
have an idea of the eternal sky. of a mandate
16:32
to rule the world. This has come up with previous
16:34
steppe cultures. And as I'm sure that listeners
16:38
are aware, there have been all sorts of steppe
16:40
invasions into Western Europe, the Muslim world,
16:43
and China. That's why the Chinese have all the
16:46
various different great walls of China across
16:49
history, to keep the nomads out. And several
16:53
of these nomadic cultures have been driven by
16:56
an idea of world conquest. So this isn't entirely
16:59
new. It's just the most dramatic expression of
17:02
that because the Mongols do conquer so very much.
17:06
But it has happened before. I think there's another
17:09
factor at work here too, which is that the way
17:12
Chinggis Khan assembles his empire, his model
17:17
is really rather sort of expand or die. He expands,
17:21
he conquers a territory. If he likes the people
17:25
who he's conquered, he will force the warriors
17:27
from the conquered civilization to join his army,
17:31
and the ruling elite will be killed. And on he
17:35
goes. But that creates a dynamo that goes round
17:38
and round and round, but it depends on ongoing
17:40
conquest. He's not necessarily paying his troops.
17:44
Yes, they're joining him out of a sense of loyalty
17:47
and oaths and obligation, but also they're maintaining
17:50
themselves. by liquefying the wealth of all the
17:53
empires they conquer. And once you've started
17:56
on that kind of treadmill, it's very hard to
17:59
get off. So expansion is not just an early phase
18:04
of the Mongol Empire. It's part of the basic
18:07
model of the Mongol Empire. It does, it does.
18:09
If that makes sense. If you were a betting man,
18:11
would you say that even if the sultan of the
18:14
Qarmazian Empire didn't make this colossal mistake,
18:21
opening uh of any chess uh move of all time that
18:26
even if he didn't do that that uh the mongols
18:29
would attack his empire yeah so i think as a
18:33
sort of as a professional historian i should
18:36
say we can't possibly know um but yeah okay yeah
18:42
almost certainly the mongols right being stopped
18:47
Another thing that helps them propel out is this
18:51
ingenious method of moving around fast. And we're
18:53
not just talking about their armies, but of entire
18:55
cities. I found this really fascinating reading
18:59
your book. Western traders and emissaries that
19:01
visit the Mongols often report on these astonishing
19:04
wagon cities. Apparently, the Mongols would sometimes
19:07
clear out an entire hill to make space for these
19:11
huge mobile encampments, which is... Pretty crazy
19:15
if you think about it. No, it's fascinating.
19:18
And it's sad in a way because it's a site that
19:22
we've lost. It just doesn't exist in the 21st
19:26
century. Of course, if you go to Mongolia, you
19:29
can still see the famous Mongol yurts, their
19:32
tents. But I think the main thing to get your
19:36
head around is the sheer scale. of these cities
19:41
and indeed of their wagons the mongols as you
19:43
say move from region to region on mobile wagon
19:47
cities tens of thousands of wagons and the cities
19:53
are so large that some emissaries reported it
19:58
taking two or three days to go from one side
20:01
to the other so if this isn't just a city it's
20:05
a landscape filled with tents and people and
20:10
animals and it's not a sort of chaotic assortment
20:13
of tents there's a strict layout for the way
20:16
that the tents should be organized both within
20:19
families but across the entire sort of uh civilization
20:24
that's moving with the elites at the center and
20:27
then the elite men's wives tents in prestige
20:31
order and behind them the concubines tents and
20:34
behind them the bodyguards tents so it's strictly
20:37
organized Mongol society is really quite complex.
20:41
And then you've got beyond the tents themselves,
20:44
you have an even wider space filled with the
20:48
Mongols' herds and flocks and all the animals
20:51
that make up the basic building blocks of Mongol
20:55
society, really. But just the sight of that must
20:58
have been astonishing. And the actual tents themselves,
21:03
well, the original tents would have been quite
21:05
simple affairs made from... the Mongols' actual
21:08
animals, the tents would have been quite small.
21:10
But as the Mongol Empire grows, the tents become
21:15
huge until you've got tents that can accommodate
21:18
two or three thousand people in one tent. So
21:21
yes, in the early Mongol Empire, you can imagine
21:25
sort of quite sort of small traditional tents.
21:27
But when the Mongols start conquering empires
21:29
that can supply and almost limit this quantity
21:32
of silk and brocade and expensive textiles, the
21:36
mongols use those and creating massive palatial
21:40
tents at the center of their empire and just
21:42
the sight of that must have been astonishing
21:45
what's definitely evident from mogul's conquest
21:47
is their willingness to use terror as a method
21:51
of subjugation for example during our conversation
21:54
about the crusades we talked about how when the
21:56
crusaders first conquered jerusalem they massacred
21:59
everyone inside the city without giving it a
22:02
second thought so this is definitely not some
22:04
sort of a delicate rosy world we're talking about
22:07
here and yet despite that and even in the context
22:10
of these brutal times contemporary sources make
22:14
it seem that the mongols were on another level
22:17
here is that accurate to say the mongols in sort
22:22
of media going back for hundreds of years have
22:25
often been presented as being well the word that's
22:27
often associated with him is sort of the barbarian
22:30
horde something like that this is inaccurate
22:33
it's inaccurate because it underestimates the
22:37
sheer complexity and organization of the mongol
22:40
empire they're not a sort of uncontrollable mass.
22:45
They're very strictly organized. But the violence
22:49
is definitely there. So when the Mongols conquer
22:53
a region, we have reports, for example, that
22:56
when they kill a thousand people in, say, a village
22:59
or a town, they'll put a spear in that village,
23:01
one spear for every thousand people they've killed,
23:04
as a warning to others. So they know what they're
23:06
doing. This is to show this is how extensively
23:09
we can kill people. And to give another story,
23:13
the Mongols were besieging a castle, a stronghold
23:19
in Khorasan, which is just to the northern part
23:22
of Persia, as it was then. And one of the defenders
23:27
from the castle shot one of Chinggis Khan's family
23:31
members with a crossbow and killed him from the
23:33
castle walls. Now, to the Mongols' eyes, this
23:38
is... beyond unacceptable. And of course, there's
23:42
no sort of recognition. Well, he was attacking
23:44
the castle, so it's not altogether surprising
23:46
someone would shoot him. This story's not going
23:48
to have a good end. A member of the imperial
23:50
dynasty has been killed. The Mongols kill the
23:53
entire garrison. And then everyone in the area.
23:57
And then all the animals in the area. And then
24:00
all the birds in the area. So complete destruction,
24:04
not just of human life, but all life. Just to
24:08
make the point, this is never going to happen
24:10
again. So the Mongols can be exceptionally brutal.
24:14
And perhaps the most well -known Mongol massacre
24:17
took place in 1258, when the Mongols besieged
24:22
and sacked Baghdad with, again, vast loss of
24:27
life. But the point to make here is, again, this
24:32
isn't a case of a barbarian horde crossing the
24:35
walls and then running crazy across the city
24:38
the city was systematically divided into sectors
24:41
each mongol commander was given a sector which
24:45
it was his job to deal with should we say so
24:50
this is highly systemized killing i'm not playing
24:53
down the body count or the brutality and the
24:56
violence of it but it's highly controlled and
24:59
that of course makes the mongols even more uh
25:02
fearsome to their opponents there's this being
25:06
thrown around quite often that one hears, that
25:09
the Mongol invasions reduced the world's population
25:12
by 5 % to 10%, which seems a little bit exaggerated,
25:17
but you tell me. Yeah, you hear these various
25:21
figures being given. I've got a problem with
25:25
it because, quite honestly, in order to calculate
25:28
that, you'd have to know what the global population
25:30
is at this time, and we don't know. We don't
25:34
know how big the population was in, say, Central
25:37
America and Latin America and North America.
25:40
We don't really know what the population was
25:42
in Northern Europe or Africa. So how can we establish
25:45
what percentage the Mongols killed? It's difficult
25:49
to calculate the Mongols' destructiveness themselves.
25:52
Yes, in some cases, they were very destructive.
25:56
And in other places, there weren't. One of the
25:59
key factors for the Mongols was... They weren't
26:04
intent on killing. They killed a lot of people,
26:07
but that wasn't necessarily inevitable. So when
26:10
the Mongols conquer a region, what they will
26:12
do beforehand is to send out ambassadors to the
26:16
area they want to conquer. And those ambassadors
26:20
offer two choices, but only two. There is no
26:24
third choice. So option one is to fully submit
26:29
to the Mongol Empire. And what that means is
26:32
you say, we are now part of the Mongol Empire.
26:35
We acknowledge the Mongols are now in control.
26:38
We acknowledge that the Mongols are true and
26:40
right when they say that they have a right to
26:43
rule the entire planet. We will accept Mongol
26:46
taxation. We will accept Mongol jurisdiction
26:49
over our own leaders. We will accept, if necessary,
26:52
a Mongol garrison. So capitulation, basically.
26:55
If you do that, if you submit, you will be spared.
27:00
no one will be hurt. If you refuse that demand,
27:05
things will go a lot less well, shall we say.
27:10
So the Mongols actually would prefer it if everyone
27:14
submitted. Who wouldn't? But of course, plenty
27:17
of people think they can defend their borders
27:19
and then suffer a massive invasion, and that
27:22
can be very destructive. But even in areas where
27:26
the Mongols have thoroughly raided and caused
27:28
destruction, we're not talking about total depopulation
27:32
there's always some people left and even baghdad
27:35
recovers to become a reasonably prosperous city
27:38
a few decades after the sack of baghdad so even
27:42
somewhere like that where there is enormous loss
27:44
of life there is recovery later on um so it's
27:48
again it's a mixed picture yeah when i was reading
27:50
your book which reads fantastically by the way
27:53
really a pleasure to read it This scenario happened
27:56
over and over again. The Mongol emissary would
27:59
come and they would be like, hey, submit. We
28:01
are rulers of the world. And I would just be
28:03
screaming at the pages. Just submit. What are
28:06
you doing, bro? Because they already knew that
28:08
the Mongols just sliced through all of these
28:11
empires around them like a hot knife through
28:13
butter, you know. But over and over again, people.
28:17
seem to make an unreasonable choice. I'm like,
28:20
don't be proud. Just say yes. Whatever. We're
28:23
going to get into it. We have to tie the story
28:25
back where you left off. So as the Khwarezmians
28:29
fall, like you said, rumors of these massive
28:32
catastrophic events start to trickle westward.
28:35
It's important to know that... Westerners at
28:37
the time had only a very limited understanding
28:39
of Central and Eastern Asia. For example, you
28:43
describe in the book how many European emissaries
28:45
brave enough to venture towards the Mongol lands
28:49
always totally expect to encounter, I don't know,
28:52
like flying horses, three -headed people and
28:55
other fantastical creatures there. That's how
28:57
much they really knew. trying to fill in the
29:01
gaps as they were. When Crusader states here
29:04
that another power is conquering these mighty
29:07
Muslim empires, they immediately tie these events
29:09
to a legendary mythical figure that is called
29:12
Prester John. Would you tell us about him, please?
29:16
That's right. Okay. So this is one of the most
29:21
extraordinary dimensions to the early history
29:24
of the Mongols, at least in the Middle East.
29:27
which is that when the armies of the Fifth Crusade
29:30
in Egypt learn of invasions taking place out
29:34
to the east, as you say, they feel these are
29:38
the armies of Prester John. Now, a bit of background
29:42
on Prester John. About 60, 70 years before these
29:47
events, so the story goes, a Christian priest
29:52
from somewhere in Eurasia appeared at the papal
29:57
court and reported that there was an emperor
30:01
somewhere out to the east called John who controlled
30:06
a massive Christian empire. And in time, this
30:09
report becomes enormously elaborated until by
30:14
the time we get to the origins of the earlier
30:18
conquests of the Mongols, the conviction is that
30:22
Prester John, Priest John, is the emperor in
30:27
the Indies, which isn't necessarily the same
30:29
as sort of modern day India as we understand
30:31
it. It's more just sort of an empire that's out
30:34
there to the east. They have very little idea
30:35
of where this Indies is, but it's an idea that's
30:38
in Western Europe at this time. And Prester John
30:41
rules over an empire of monsters. Yes, you did
30:46
hear me right. And his empire includes... crags
30:51
and mountains where the dragons and the dragon
30:55
masters live again i'm not making this up and
30:59
off the coast of his empire you have the islands
31:02
where you can find the fountain of eternal youth
31:06
so this is a deeply um constructed empire made
31:12
from a assortment of all sorts of different legends
31:16
and ideas some of which can be traced all the
31:19
way back to the roman era for what Western Europeans
31:21
thought was out there in Central Asia, because
31:24
of course they didn't know. But when they hear
31:27
about these invasions by people we would know
31:31
as the Mongols, it's their conviction that what
31:35
they're actually hearing is the oncoming army
31:38
of Chinggis Khan. And so their belief is if they
31:43
just wait, they actually paused the crusade for
31:45
about a year. various reasons for doing this
31:49
but one of them is their belief why fight alone
31:53
whereas if the crusaders just wait for it for
31:56
a few months perhaps presto john will arrive
31:59
with his army they can then join forces and reconquer
32:02
jerusalem permanently so it's an astonishing
32:05
mixture of the reality of the mongols advance
32:10
but then being that being filtered through the
32:13
myths and legends of the crusaders themselves
32:16
astonishingly that made me laugh really hard
32:18
that when the mongols later hear and learn about
32:22
this belief they immediately use this use this
32:24
as a ploy telling the french king who's currently
32:27
crusading in egypt i believe that the khan's
32:30
own mother is prester john's daughter and they
32:33
say this despite the fact that they have already
32:36
completely devastated the very catholic lands
32:39
of hungary and poland in the meantime i mean
32:41
in terms of cheekiness these lads are something
32:43
else, right? Although I believe the Europeans
32:45
didn't fall for it every time, did they? No,
32:48
I mean, by the time you get to the mid 13th century,
32:50
people are pretty aware that the Mongols are
32:53
not pressed to John, that they are in fact exceptionally
32:56
dangerous. So yeah, that myth does not last forever.
33:01
But the Mongols do know how to play quite a sort
33:07
of... cunning hand in warfare and diplomacy so
33:10
for example when the Mongols advance into the
33:13
Christian Caucasus so that's the Caucasus is
33:15
the area of land between the Black Sea and the
33:18
Caspian Sea we have a report that the Mongols
33:21
advanced into the area with crosses in front
33:25
of their army because of course the local people
33:27
didn't know who the Mongols were and so the Mongols
33:30
gave them the impression they're a Christian
33:32
army they're friends and then just before the
33:36
Mongols attacked down went the crosses. And so
33:39
in a sense, it was a kind of surprise attack.
33:42
But the Mongols do know how to use these sorts
33:44
of ruses and stratagems in order to gain a military
33:48
advantage. So another strike against them being
33:50
this sort of unsophisticated brute, a massive
33:54
horde that's just kind of swarming towards the
33:57
west. Yeah, they were able to control the empire
34:00
from the Pacific coast to the borders of Hungary
34:04
and Poland. You can't do that without a very
34:08
high level of sophistication, given the technologies
34:11
at their disposal. So the violence is there,
34:14
but they do need to be understood as a highly
34:17
sophisticated civilization. By the way, why did
34:19
they, since I'm from Eastern Europe, I do have
34:22
a stake in this. Why did they stop in Eastern
34:24
Europe and in the Balkans, I believe? Well, that's
34:27
a very good question. Because the Mongols in
34:30
1241... 1240, 1241, invaded Poland and then Hungary.
34:38
And they caused a fair amount of devastation
34:41
in southern Poland. And they won a major battle
34:44
at Leibniz. Forgive me if I've mispronounced
34:46
that. And then they advance in a large body into
34:50
Hungary, through the Carpathian Mountains, where
34:53
they inflict a massive defeat on the Hungarian
34:56
army. And then they spread out and cause enormous...
35:00
loss of life, which raises the question, why
35:03
didn't they carry on? Because you've got emissaries
35:07
being sent by the Pope immediately after these
35:10
events. There's a very shrewd and intelligent
35:14
observer called John of Piano Carpini, who's
35:17
a friar, and he's sent by the Pope to work out
35:20
what's going on, and if possible, how the Mongols
35:23
can be stopped. And he comes back basically saying,
35:28
We can't do it. We lack the strength to do it.
35:32
And by this stage, the terror of the Mongols
35:36
has spread to pretty much every part of Christendom.
35:40
In fact, I haven't heard of Spain being concerned
35:42
with the Mongols yet, but in time they might
35:45
be. But just to give an example of the sheer
35:48
terror of the Mongols, in England, there is a
35:53
fishing port called Great Yarmouth. And around
35:58
this time, the fishermen or fishing families
36:01
of Great Yarmouth, they brought in an enormous
36:04
catch of herring, which is great for them because
36:08
it means they can sell the herring and they can
36:10
buy a few extra things for themselves in the
36:12
markets. But no one arrived to buy the herring.
36:17
Normally, northern German or Baltic merchants
36:21
would arrive to buy the herring and then take
36:24
it back. to their home countries, but no one
36:27
arrived. And so one of the more unusual consequences
36:30
of the Mongol invasions is that the people of
36:34
Great Yarmouth had to eat a lot of herring that
36:36
year. But the key point here is that the reason
36:39
the German and Baltic merchants aren't leaving
36:41
their homes is because they're worried that if
36:43
they leave, there'll be no homes for them to
36:45
come back to. So fear of the Mongol invasion
36:49
spreads throughout Western Christendom. People
36:51
are aware that really there's nothing going to
36:53
stop them. which raises then the question of,
36:56
well, why didn't the Mongols expand? It wasn't
36:59
because they had changed their mind. They were
37:01
fully intended to do it. There are various answers
37:07
to this. It's not military. It's not about fortress
37:11
cities and armies. The Mongols can handle those.
37:14
One theory, which has a fair amount of validity,
37:19
I think, is it is to do with Hungary and Poland's
37:23
thick forests. Those thick, deciduous forests
37:28
of oak and beech. And the problem with forests,
37:32
if you are a nomadic invader, is that the tree
37:36
canopy kills off the grass underneath them. And
37:40
if you are the Mongols, you need grazing for
37:44
your animals. Mongol society has one weakness,
37:46
and that weakness is it must graze its animals
37:50
and that's not just sheep and goats every warrior
37:54
because mongol horses are so small every mongol
37:57
warrior needs about eight nine ten horses to
38:00
change mounts the whole time because he's he's
38:03
exhausting his horses the whole time and you
38:05
need additional horses to pull the mongol's wagons
38:08
and so these vast areas of grassland and western
38:12
europe or eastern europe central europe and western
38:15
europe there isn't much grassland anywhere it's
38:18
so thickly forested so actually the mongols had
38:22
real difficulty conquering or making much progress
38:26
into eastern europe because they can't graze
38:28
their animals it's the same reason they had difficulty
38:31
in southeast asia as well because they couldn't
38:34
graze their animals in jungle so it's an environmental
38:39
factor but it's really important even so I can't
38:44
help wondering, because Western Europe and Eastern
38:46
Europe could still produce plenty of food, whether
38:48
the Mongols could potentially have invaded again.
38:52
And notably, as a theory put out there, that
38:55
in around 1260, the Mongols to the north of the
39:00
Black Sea were marshalling a massive invasion
39:03
army to begin the conquest of Hungary and Poland,
39:08
before then pushing into Germany, Holy Roman
39:12
Empire. Northern Italy and beyond that to France
39:15
and everywhere, basically. But at a critical
39:19
moment, the armies to the north of the Black
39:23
Sea and the armies of the Middle East, rather
39:26
than invading outwards, turned on each other
39:29
and fought a massive war against one another.
39:32
And that really this was the thing that saved
39:36
Western Europe and indeed other parts of the
39:39
world, such as North Africa, for example. No
39:42
reason the Mongols couldn't conquer North Africa,
39:43
because they were fighting amongst themselves.
39:47
So it may have been civil war that saved Western
39:50
Europe and other parts of the world, rather than
39:53
the defenses of the places that were still unconquered.
39:55
Wow, talking about a lucky break. By the way,
39:57
how did Europeans at the time explain this, what
40:01
must have seemed like a terrifying force of nature,
40:05
once they realized this is not their old pal,
40:07
Prester John? They must have thought this must
40:11
be like the apocalypse or that this is happening
40:14
because they're sinful and they're not for religious
40:18
reasons or something. Or did they have also more,
40:21
how should we put it, pragmatic explanations
40:24
for what's happening and what this is? They're
40:27
pragmatic in how they think about how to deal
40:30
with the Mongols. So, for example, I mentioned
40:32
John of Piano Carpini, Emissary to the Mongols.
40:36
Now, he's prepared to look at the Mongols from
40:39
a spiritual perspective, but he's practical when
40:42
it comes to how to deal with them. He notices,
40:44
for example, the Mongols really don't like crossbows.
40:48
So he suggests that the rulers of Christendom
40:52
should acquire lots of crossbows. He also admires
40:56
the way the Mongols structure their armies. So
41:00
the Mongols structure their armies by having
41:02
units of 10 soldiers. and then 10 units of 10
41:06
soldiers under a commander of 100, and then 10
41:10
commanders of 100 under a commander of 1 ,000,
41:12
and 10 commanders of 1 ,000 under a commander
41:15
of 10 ,000, which is called a two -men. And so
41:19
it's a very complex and rigid structure, but
41:22
he observes it works quite well. So his practical
41:25
suggestion is Western Christendom should do as
41:28
the Mongols do, should structure its armies that
41:31
way. But you're right. There are lots of people
41:34
in Western Europe and in Eastern Europe, for
41:38
that matter, in Byzantium, in the Muslim world,
41:43
who are trying to come to terms with who the
41:46
Mongols are. And in many cases, they do reach
41:50
out for a spiritual explanation. And you're also
41:54
right that in many cases, this is about our sins,
41:58
whether the our is... our sins as people in western
42:04
europe our sins as armenian christians or our
42:07
sins as muslims and we've actually got accounts
42:11
in muslim sources or where the mongols are presented
42:15
exactly in this way as a response to the sinfulness
42:19
of the faithful but there's another idea which
42:23
is also very common across multiple civilizations
42:26
which is that The Mongols are, or are in some
42:32
way connected to, the armies of Gog and Magog,
42:37
or in the Arabic, Juj and Mejuj. And in the Bible,
42:42
there is the prophecy that in the end times,
42:45
the gates of the north will open and out will
42:49
pour the peoples of Juj and Mejuj, Gog and Magog,
42:53
to reign destruction on the world. And actually,
42:58
you can see their point. If the Mongols are conquering
43:01
everywhere, they do actually map onto that biblical
43:05
story or that story from religious texts quite
43:09
effectively. So you can kind of see their point.
43:12
And it's also thought, again, in multiple traditions,
43:16
that there is literally a wall in the north.
43:19
In fact, some travelers claim to have found it.
43:23
which were once released, would then unleash
43:26
the peoples of Gog and Magog. Although in fact,
43:28
many writers connect the Mongols to Gog and Magog,
43:31
but say they lived next to the walls or next
43:34
to Gog and Magog. It seems to be a reluctance
43:36
to say they are actually Gog and Magog. But yes,
43:39
apocalyptic thinking is definitely there. That
43:41
must have worked to the Mongols' advantage. Even
43:46
more, no? Because it makes them even more terrifying
43:48
if there's some sort of like a fulfilled prophecy
43:50
raining down on the sinful. I mean, that makes
43:53
it even more astonishing that some rulers would
43:56
be like, no, we're going to fight. We're not
43:58
going to submit. I mean, that's just bonkers.
44:01
Yeah. So there's a story told by a historian
44:04
called Ibn al -Athir from Mosul in modern day
44:08
northern Iraq. And he tells the story that he
44:12
had heard about a Mongol horseman. approaching
44:16
a group of 60 men traveling from one area to
44:20
another area on a road. And this one Mongol warrior
44:24
said, right, tie yourselves up. And so great
44:30
was the fear the Mongols were held in that they
44:33
started to tie themselves up, 60 against one.
44:38
And that gives you a measure of just how much
44:42
terror the Mongols were able to inspire. In fact,
44:46
the story didn't end that way because the person
44:48
who told Ibn al -Athiyah the story said that
44:51
he thought this is ridiculous and he stuck a
44:53
knife in the Mongol warrior. But the fact that
44:55
they initially began to comply with that instruction
44:59
gives you a sense of just how much terror people
45:02
felt about it. I'm terrified right now and I'm
45:03
just listening to these stories, to be honest.
45:07
Okay, if we hop back to the Near East. If the
45:10
book has one consistent motif, it has to be the
45:13
kind of... pretty depressing fact that despite
45:16
knowing fully well that the Mongol storm, as
45:19
you put it, is approaching, and they know this
45:22
not just from reports from distant or neighboring
45:24
lands, but also from countless refugees swelling
45:28
their territories, these Near Eastern kingdoms
45:31
and states from the Ayyubid Sultanate, the Seljuk
45:35
Turks, and the Crusader states are more content
45:37
to fight their own petty internal disputes, quarrels
45:41
about which nobleman should inherit the crown
45:45
or get his fat hands on more land or something
45:47
than ever presenting any kind of a unified front.
45:51
It seems like madness. I don't know whether that
45:55
speaks to a general weakness of the human condition.
45:58
How to deal with climate change these days comes
46:00
to mind somehow. I don't know why. Or would you
46:03
say that this was a unique feature of the medieval
46:06
Near East? No, it's not a unique feature of the
46:10
Middle East. I don't know, I've spent 20 years
46:13
staring at human behavior. And my observation
46:16
is that when things start to go badly and things
46:20
start falling apart, actually human beings are
46:24
very bad at holding together. True, if they are
46:30
all facing immediate extinction in the same place,
46:34
they might at the last minute try and work together.
46:37
But when there's still some sort of options,
46:40
some will want to run, some will want to hide,
46:42
some will want to fight. Some will just want
46:44
to make sure that that person over there gets
46:46
attacked before they do. But it can break down
46:49
very quickly. And so I think what we're looking
46:51
at in the Middle East at this time is not in
46:54
any way unique to the Middle East. I think this
46:56
is how human beings behave. But you're right.
47:00
The various major powers of the Middle East fight
47:03
amongst themselves, even as the Mongols approach.
47:06
A bit of background on this. There are lots of
47:09
different territories in the Middle East, but
47:11
the three really big ones are what's left of
47:15
the Khwarazmian Empire. And that's under the
47:18
rule of the son of the former sultan. And the
47:23
current ruler is called Jalal al -Din. This guy
47:24
is just an amazing character, I have to say.
47:26
I was enjoying every bit of his story. He's like
47:29
some sort of a crazy pirate going around. He
47:31
is incredibly brutal. And the sources from every
47:35
culture describe him as extremely violent. But
47:39
what he's trying to do, because when the Mongols
47:41
invade the region in 1220, they wait for about
47:44
10 years before they attack again. And in that
47:48
10 -year period, of course he doesn't know it's
47:49
going to last 10 years, but Jalal al -Din tries
47:52
to take what's left of his empire and build it
47:56
up through conquest into the biggest empire he
47:59
can, so that when the Mongols invade, he can
48:02
then answer that invasion. The problem is that
48:06
by building up his empire, he comes into conflict
48:09
with the two other really big empires of the
48:12
region, the Ayyubid Sultanate, and the Anatolian
48:16
Seljuk Sultanate. And of course, they want to
48:19
resist his attempt to expand his empire. So just
48:20
to imagine it a bit better, this is modern -day
48:22
Egypt, roughly speaking, and modern -day Turkey,
48:25
right? Yeah, so the Khwarezmian Empire is basically
48:29
western Iran and parts of Iraq, and it expands
48:35
into the Caucasus. You've then got the Ayyubid
48:38
Empire, which stretches from Egypt to much of
48:43
Syria. and then parts of the Jezira. The Jezira
48:46
is the area of land between the Tigris and the
48:49
Euphrates rivers. And then to the north of them,
48:53
in modern -day Turkey, you have the Anatolian
48:56
Seljuk Sultanate. So those are the three big
48:59
power blocks. But the problem is that Jalal al
49:02
-Din, in his efforts to build up an empire big
49:05
enough to face the Mongols, attacks both the
49:08
Ayyubids and the Anatolian Seljuks. Of course,
49:12
they don't want this. So they join together and
49:15
they bring Jalal al -Din to battle and defeat
49:18
Jalal al -Din in battle. And then only a few
49:21
weeks after his army has been utterly destroyed,
49:24
the Mongols invade again. So you can see there
49:28
are attempts within this to try and build up
49:31
a power block big enough to fight the Mongols,
49:34
but it's never really achieved. However, he does
49:37
have one. pretty badass success against the mongols
49:41
doesn't he he's one of the few people that engages
49:45
them and not only that he defeats them yes so
49:48
there is a brief attack in three years before
49:51
this when the mongols attack the northern persian
49:55
northern iranians it would be today a city of
49:57
isfahan and he's able to drive them off successfully
50:02
but this is the thing the mongols the mongols
50:06
are not unbeatable There is a sort of legend
50:09
that no one can defeat the Mongol armies. Well,
50:11
in fact, people can and do. The problem is that
50:14
if you do defeat the Mongols, the Mongols will
50:16
make it their mission in life to make sure that
50:19
defeat does not stand for very long and that
50:21
immediately whoever had the audacity to defeat
50:26
them in battle is submerged by invading armies
50:29
very quickly afterwards. So Jalal al -Din never
50:31
tried to form some sort of a bigger coalition
50:34
with these neighbors, the Seljuk Turks and the...
50:37
Ayyubid empire. He was never like, hey, this
50:39
is to be or not to be for me right now. Let's
50:43
put these petty battles aside and let's form
50:47
a big front because the Mongols are something
50:49
else. He did so at the last minute, but this
50:53
is just directly after he just fought the Ayyubids
50:56
and Anatolian Seljuks in battle, and he's got
50:58
nothing left. Then he appeals for help, but it's
51:02
too late. He's lost his army. And the people
51:04
he just fought in battle are not going to rush
51:06
to his aid. So it's too late. How do the Ayyubids
51:11
and the Seljuk Turks react to his downfall then?
51:14
So the Mongols advance again into Persia and
51:20
from Persia into the Caucasus. And this is the
51:24
end of the Khwarazmian Empire. Jalal al -Din
51:27
is hunted down and killed. And the Mongols then...
51:31
advance their frontier so they're right on the
51:34
edge of the Anatolian Seljuk Sultanate and indeed
51:38
the Ayyubid Empire. So the Mongols are now a
51:42
major presence in the Middle East and they're
51:44
under the control of a leader called Chormakan.
51:48
Now the Anatolian Seljuks, they can see that
51:53
there's really going to be no stopping the Mongols.
51:56
And so in the 1230s, they submit to the Mongols
52:00
and agree to pay tribute. And then something
52:04
happens. Excuse me. We're not quite sure what
52:07
happens. Perhaps the Seljuks stopped paying tribute.
52:11
Perhaps they stopped sending emissaries to the
52:14
Mongols. Perhaps they... Yet this is the problem.
52:17
The relationship breaks down. And the Mongols
52:22
are very sensitive to this. And so... In 1242,
52:26
a massive Mongol invasion army crosses into the
52:29
Anatolian Seljuk Sultanate and sacks the city
52:33
of Erzurum. The Anatolian Seljuk Sultan realizes
52:37
this is only war now. And so he puts together
52:40
the biggest army he can, which is actually bigger
52:43
than the Mongols' own army. And then there's
52:47
a big battle at a place called Kozy Dag in 1243,
52:51
where... It is a heavy fighting on the first
52:56
day. But on the second day of the battle, and
52:59
again, we don't know why, the Mongols advance
53:02
to resume the battle and find the Seljuk encampment
53:06
utterly deserted. And the Sultan's forces and
53:10
the Sultan himself had melted away in the night.
53:13
And this is the moment where the Mongols forcibly
53:17
subjugate Anatolia, modern day Turkey. at least
53:21
until the Seljuks accept a much higher level
53:25
of tribute, a much stricter set of terms as a
53:30
Mongol client state. All right. I think this
53:33
is a good point to conclude the first episode.
53:37
You know, the Seljuk Turks have sort of fallen,
53:40
have become the client state, but there's a lot
53:42
of other players on the map. And maybe these
53:44
guys, like you said before, when we were talking
53:46
about the human condition, maybe these guys are
53:48
hoping that the Mongol invasion is going to stop
53:50
right in front of their door. Maybe they're thinking
53:53
that the Mongols won't come for them after all,
53:56
but the Mongols always arrive. And what happens
54:00
when they do? Well, you'll just have to tune
54:03
in again for the second part of this series on
54:06
the Mongol storm. So see you then and bye -bye.
54:10
By the way, the second unbelievably action -packed
54:13
episode where we talk about the mysterious assassins,
54:15
the sinister ways in which the Mongols waged
54:18
war, and also about the fearless faction that
54:20
finally beat them back is already available to
54:23
my patrons on Patreon. But for everyone else,
54:26
it will be published in exactly a week. So see
54:30
you back here. There's no team behind me. It's
54:52
very sad, I know, but you can help by hopping
54:55
on Patreon and finding the Smart Cookies podcast
54:58
on there. And then last but certainly not least,
55:01
as always, I have to thank my existing patrons.
55:04
Tovarishin, Tovarishitsa, absolute legends. Without
55:06
you, there would be no Smart Cookies, which makes
55:09
you... actual producers of this show. So eternal
55:13
thanks goes to Amy Yontz, Matija Renčel, Florian
55:17
Hauer, Petar Karbo, Matija Zupančić, Dejan Žulnir,
55:20
Derej Rok, Tržan, Saša Vipatnik, Neven Svijanović,
55:22
Juš Premrov, Sirkezi, Goran Ivašič, Anža Sever,
55:25
Oule, Marin Ferrara, Aljaš Maher, Štrole, Aida
55:28
Mancian, Miha Medved, Medinjo, Goran, Gordon,
55:30
Lorenzo, Jure Čuk, Mila, Carmen Vronica, and
55:33
Tai Chi. I am deeply touched, so thank you very
55:37
much.